Cannot believe Kerry Swift boat flap

[JesseJames]

I can't believe it. These men who are sniping at Kerry saying that he didn't earn some of his medals strike me as somewhat pathetic.
If you ask me, I think they are just upset at the fact that John Kerry came home and became and anti-war activist.
And I can't believe that George W. Bush would stoop to such tactics considering he was comfy stateside in the Air National Guard no less.
Even if he didn't really earn some Purple Hearts doesn't change the fact that he was THERE in the boats in the Mekong trading fire with Charlie.
Besides, a real warrior wouldn't really give a damn about his medals. Just the knowledge that he did what he had to do.

[zimv20]

believe it. and be sure to thank karl rove, lee atwater and john o'neill. and machiavelli while you're at it.

enjoy these machiavelli quotes:

A prince never lacks legitimate reasons to break his promise.

A son can bear with equanimity the loss of his father, but the loss of his inheritance may drive him to despair.

The new ruler must determine all the injuries that he will need to inflict. He must inflict them once and for all.

The promise given was a necessity of the past: the word broken is a necessity of the present.

There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others.

If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.

[Lyle]

If you ask me, I think they are just upset at the fact that John Kerry came home and became an anti-war activist.That is a brilliant observation.

[IJ Reilly]

What I can't believe is how tenaciously the legitimate media has latched onto a totally manufactured story worthy only of the tabloids. An interesting op-ed about how this ugliness is being perpetuated ran in the LA Times today.

You Can Report, but We Will Decide

The conservative media's handling of the Swift boat dispute is a case study in bias.
By Ben Wasserstein
Ben Wasserstein is a writer in New York.

August 24, 2004

Last Thursday, the Washington Post reported that the military records of Larry Thurlow, one of John Kerry's major accusers among the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, contradicted Thurlow's version of events and confirmed Kerry's. At the very least, this cast severe doubt on the charge that Kerry fabricated the events that earned him one of his Vietnam War medals.

The conservative media had been pushing the fabrication story energetically. How did it deal with this new evidence undermining it? As it turns out, at almost every turn it soft-pedaled the new evidence or outright ignored it, showing its bias throughout.

On March 13, 1969, Kerry commanded one of five Navy Swift boats in a raid up the Bay Hap River and won a Bronze Star for actions under enemy fire. Thurlow commanded one of the other boats, and he has claimed in constant media rounds that there was no enemy fire. But, as the Post reported, Thurlow also won a Bronze Star that day, and the citation that accompanied it referred to "enemy small arms and automatic weapons fire" directed at "all units."

Thurlow's current story casts doubt on his own Bronze Star as much as Kerry's. Thurlow's explanation is that his citation's record of the events must have been based on Kerry's and that the information must have been provided by Kerry himself. There is an "after-action report" that Thurlow and John E. O'Neill, coauthor of the anti-Kerry book "Unfit for Command," refer to as "Kerry's report" despite the fact that it bears the initials KJW. (Later news stories have pointed out that Thurlow's Bronze Star citation refers to a witness to the enemy fire — Thurlow's crewmate, Robert Lambert — and that the KJW initials are also on reports about events Kerry was not involved in.)

No one has so far challenged the Washington Post's facts. Not that you'd know that if you were watching or listening to or reading conservative media outlets. Rupert Murdoch's New York Post ran Thurlow's charge that Kerry lied to get his medal. On Friday, the day after the Washington Post story poked a hole in that contention, the New York Post ran a teeny story focusing only on Kerry's decision to counterattack against a "tough anti-Kerry TV ad." The Wall Street Journal editorial page and its website, OpinionJournal, also said nothing about the new evidence.
...

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-wasserstein24aug24,1,5997526.story

[wordmunger]

I'm disgusted by this as well. It made me so mad that I wrote this satirical blog post (http://wordmunger.com/index.php?p=66) about it.

[uvex]

I can't believe it. These men who are sniping at Kerry saying that he didn't earn some of his medals strike me as somewhat pathetic.
If you ask me, I think they are just upset at the fact that John Kerry came home and became and anti-war activist.
And I can't believe that George W. Bush would stoop to such tactics considering he was comfy stateside in the Air National Guard no less.
Even if he didn't really earn some Purple Hearts doesn't change the fact that he was THERE in the boats in the Mekong trading fire with Charlie.
Besides, a real warrior wouldn't really give a damn about his medals. Just the knowledge that he did what he had to do.
It is an issue because he and he alone is making it an issue. It was his decision to run on a vietnam war platform and not his senate record, so you reap what you sow.

[Sun Baked]

Follow the money.

Kerry has promised many times to stick it to the rich man as soon as he can, and repeal the Bush tax cuts.

Doubtful many of them are going to sit still and take that sort of threat from a potential leader without fighting back.

---

Quite cheap insurance for a group of rich people to spend some money now and sling some mud, and attempt to avoid any tax increases.

[mwjd299]

I don't know why this story did not make the national news. It broke in Chicago on Sunday. The story was on the front page of Sunday's Chicago Tribune.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/elections/chi-0408220343aug22,1,2916896.story?coll=chi-news-hed

[Leo Hubbard]

Follow the money.

Kerry has promised many times to stick it to the rich man as soon as he can, and repeal the Bush tax cuts.

Doubtful many of them are going to sit still and take that sort of threat from a potential leader without fighting back.

---

Quite cheap insurance for a group of rich people to spend some money now and sling some mud, and attempt to avoid any tax increases.
Then why is it that he voted to raise the gas tax 8 times, raise taxes on senior citizens I think over 10 times, raise other taxes on middle income people over 30 times while he was in the senate? If he was against raising taxes on the middle income then why doesn't his vote reflect that?

"there is what Kerry says he will do, then there is what he really did."

[pseudobrit]

Here is the be all and end all of the Swift Boat ************ and why it's happening:

John Kerry is a ****ing war hero, man. He saved people's lives. He was wounded repeatedly and shot at frequently. He served two tours in Vietnam. No one has questioned these facts in the past 30 years.

Bush is a ****ing *****. He got into the Air National Guard ahead of better, more qualified men who'd scored higher and then checked the box to opt out of volunteering for overseas service. Then he was trained in an aircraft that was being phased out of use in Viet Nam.

Republicans have "claimed" the military as their own. The above disparity in actual service in (as opposed to lip service to) the military is at odds with their "claim."

Let's recap:
Kerry = war hero
Bush = *****

of course they'll do anything to try to level the playing field!
Unless you cheat, there is no contest!

[zimv20]

Let's recap:
Kerry = war hero
Bush = *****

therefore, the only hope is to use the Rove "attack strengths" tactic, as was done against ann richards, max cleland and john mccain.

if anything, we can read the swift boat attacks as "we know kerry has the real advantage here."

and the not-so-swift are still buying into the "this is a kerry weakness" story. it's called reading between the lines, folks. it's not that hard, if you have just a wee bit of curiosity.

[Leo Hubbard]

Here is the be all and end all of the Swift Boat ************ and why it's happening:

John Kerry is a ****ing war hero, man. He saved people's lives. He was wounded repeatedly and shot at frequently. He served two tours in Vietnam. No one has questioned these facts in the past 30 years.


Just for starters, I didn't know a tour equalled to 2 months. :rolleyes:

[mactastic]

Just for starters, I didn't know a tour equalled to 2 months. :rolleyes:

Just for starters, who checked the box saying "I volunteer for duty in Vietnam", and who checked the one saying "I prefer stateside duty" where no one will shoot at me?

[IJ Reilly]

...and who was in favor of the war in Vietnam, but declined to go?

[mactastic]

Ah that's right, add "I don't favor going myself, but I favor OTHERS going and getting killed in my place" to Bush's resume. Cheney's too. Classic definition of chickenhawk.

[Sayhey]

It is an issue because he and he alone is making it an issue. It was his decision to run on a vietnam war platform and not his senate record, so you reap what you sow.

No, this attack has been in the works at least since it became obvious that Kerry was going to be the likely nominee. This is Karl Rove's, George Bush's, and Lee Atwater's modus operandi from 1988-2002. There is nothing surprising in this kind of slime machine from any of them, and it certainly would have happened regardless of what use Kerry made of his heroic service. From Willie Horton through "Manchurian Candidate" insinuations and now with the "Swift Boat" liars it is all a gameplan written from the same shameless authors.

As to Kerry's decision to highlight his service, he did so because it is in stark contrast to the men of this administration who ran from service in Vietnam and are just too eager to swagger about in jump suits and false macho poses shouting "bring it on" while other people's children die to make them look tough. Sounds like a pretty good idea to expose Bush's lies and phony rhetoric.

I'm of the opinion that Lincoln was right - you can't fool all of the people all of the time. This is going to come back to haunt the Bush campaign.

[Sun Baked]

I'm of the opinion that Lincoln was right - you can't fool all of the people all of the time. This is going to come back to haunt the Bush campaign.Unless they're Americans glued to a television set.

Look how many people were suckered by Wrestling on tv for so long. ;)

[Sayhey]

Unless they're Americans glued to a television set.

Look how many people were suckered by Wrestling on tv for so long. ;)

I think Lincoln must have said something about the Pro Wrestling exception to the rule. My google search seems to come up empty, but I'm sure Honest Abe knew about this tiny exception to the dictum. ;)

[IJ Reilly]

I like James Thurber's variant: "You can fool too many of the people too much of the time."

[Neserk]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040825/pl_nm/campaign_bush_ads_dc

More links between Bush & SBVT

[Neserk]

I like James Thurber's variant: "You can fool too many of the people too much of the time."


Too true, too true...

[zimv20]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040825/pl_nm/campaign_bush_ads_dc

okay, i just loaded that page and there was a picture of kevin bacon in the sidebar. coincidence? or someone's idea of a (imo, really funny) joke?

[Neserk]

okay, i just loaded that page and there was a picture of kevin bacon in the sidebar. coincidence? or someone's idea of a (imo, really funny) joke?

LOL... he is actually part of the Moveon ad to get Bush OUTTA office :D

But that is funny... perhaps subconscious on my part :p

[pseudobrit]

Just for starters, who checked the box saying "I volunteer for duty in Vietnam", and who checked the one saying "I prefer stateside duty" where no one will shoot at me?

Ignore the ignorant troll.

On Kerry's second tour, he was allowed to cut it short because of his three Purple Hearts.

This "Kerry only served 2 (or 4) months" stuff is absolute hogwash. He served in the Vietnamese theatre from February 9, 1968 until April, 1969.

Two months my ass. Liars should be ashamed of themselves.

[IJ Reilly]

Liars should be ashamed of themselves.

But then they wouldn't be very good liars, would they?

[katchow]

i think i'm confused...living in ohio i saw the commercials on tv several times (much to my nasea). A friend of mine mentioned yesterday that they only aired them in three states (swing states i'm guessing)...is this true?

it struck me as odd that a commercial limited to 3 states has gotten such national publicity. Well not odd really, but geez, what a cost-effective smear...

[mouchoir]

Ah that's right, add "I don't favor going myself, but I favor OTHERS going and getting killed in my place" to Bush's resume. Cheney's too. Classic definition of chickenhawk.

Hang on – weren't 'chickenhawks' the nickname of huey choppers in the vietnam war... and also the name of a book by a pilot of said choppers during the war.

That's too good a compliment to pay to those two. 'Chickens**ts' more like.

[pseudobrit]

Hang on – weren't 'chickenhawks' the nickname of huey choppers in the vietnam war... and also the name of a book by a pilot of said choppers during the war.

That's too good a compliment to pay to those two. 'Chickens**ts' more like.

I've felt the same since this term has been used to describe the Bush administration. Robert Mason's excellent tome and its title (I don't believe the term was in widespread use during the conflict, it was an "inside joke" among a few men who flew with Mason IIRC) are unworthy of comparison to Cheney and his ilk.

Chicken****s sounds better but the pundits will have a hard time getting that one past during the primetime screamfests.

I'm voting for "*****" myself. They could call them ***** willows.

[zimv20]

what the heck is a clown willow?

;-)

[kuyu]

Swift Boat Vets for Truth = Moveon.org

It's the same thing people. Kerry asked Bush to denounce the ad. Bush asked Kerry to ask moveon.org to quit.

Another reason why these 527's have to go. These things are not good for democracy. The only difference is that SBVT started 2 months ago. Moveon started 12 months ago. They compared Bush to hitler for pete's sake!!!

I don't think any of us should make Kerry's vietnam service an issue. He served, end of discussion. But, if Bush & Co. are responsible for this ad, the Kerry & Co. are responsible for calling Bush hitler.

I don't get how a $63 million dollar smear campaign can get mad when their target's side spends a mil or so throwing mud back. "We can compare you to the world's worst human being on TV, but you can't call us a liar" Total BS. 527's have to go...

[zimv20]

Swift Boat Vets for Truth = Moveon.org
couple things...

- moveon isn't a 527
- moveon did not create the hitler ad (i suspect you know this), it was on their site as part of a contest and removed after the request was made
- imo, juxtaposition is not the same as fabrication

[Leo Hubbard]

couple things...

- moveon isn't a 527
- moveon did not create the hitler ad (i suspect you know this), it was on their site as part of a contest and removed after the request was made
- imo, juxtaposition is not the same as fabrication
However Al Gore spoke at one of their meetings, and both Kerry and his wife has connections with moveon. As well as does members of the DNC.

[mactastic]

MoveOn.org is a PAC, not a 527. Just to be clear, even though this has been raised numerous times.

[Sayhey]

Swift Boat Vets for Truth = Moveon.org

It's the same thing people. Kerry asked Bush to denounce the ad. Bush asked Kerry to ask moveon.org to quit.

Another reason why these 527's have to go. These things are not good for democracy. The only difference is that SBVT started 2 months ago. Moveon started 12 months ago. They compared Bush to hitler for pete's sake!!!

I don't think any of us should make Kerry's vietnam service an issue. He served, end of discussion. But, if Bush & Co. are responsible for this ad, the Kerry & Co. are responsible for calling Bush hitler.

I don't get how a $63 million dollar smear campaign can get mad when their target's side spends a mil or so throwing mud back. "We can compare you to the world's worst human being on TV, but you can't call us a liar" Total BS. 527's have to go...

You need to do a little more research on this stuff. MoveOn is an organization that has its roots in the reaction to the impeachment of Clinton starting with a online petition in September of 1998. The name comes from the idea that many, many people had at the time that it was time to move on from all the nonsense about impeaching a President for a sexual indiscretion. In other words it is an organization that is much older than 12 months and has no special ties to Kerry. SVBT is just the opposite. It was formed with money tied to the Bush family, with key people who have long ties to the Bush family, and with the same method and tactics of smears and lies demonstrated in Bush family campaigns since 1988. There is no equivalency between the two organizations.

As zim has already said the "Hitler" ads were entered into a contest sponsored by MoveOn.org by individuals not affiliated to that organization or any political campaign and was removed by MoveOn as soon as they became aware of them. The only reason most people know of them is because the GOP put them on their website in an attempt to tie them to MoveOn.

Take a look at MoveOn.org's (http://www.moveon.org/front/) website and find anything that qualifies as a "smear." Undoubtedly they are very anti-Bush, but I know of no lies or smears coming form that organization (which has not spent 63 million dollars, btw.) All this is just an attempt to dodge the issue of the lies put out by SBVT on behalf of the Bush campaign.

I'm with you that there must be more regulation of 527s and the many other ways that big money play too much of a role in our political life. However, I think the answer is through public financing of political campaigns, not in so called "reforms" like Bush is pushing that would tilt the playing field even more towards those with access to the largest donors (i.e. the GOP.)

[mactastic]

But I'm sure SOMEONE will argue, much like Thurlow tried to, that Kerry has long had this master plan, and I'm sure part of that plan was to have Clinton get into trouble so Kerry would have an excuse to start this MoveOn.org group secretly and then when he was nominated for president he could use his secret ties to the organization to get himself elected.

It all makes sense now. Why didn't I realize this sooner? :p

[Sayhey]

But I'm sure SOMEONE will argue, much like Thurlow tried to, that Kerry has long had this master plan, and I'm sure part of that plan was to have Clinton get into trouble so Kerry would have an excuse to start this MoveOn.org group secretly and then when he was nominated for president he could use his secret ties to the organization to get himself elected.

It all makes sense now. Why didn't I realize this sooner? :p

mac,

you have to stop wearing those tin foil hats. You are beginning to channel right-wing conspiracy nut thinking far too clearly. BTW, does the foil pick up Limbaugh, Hannity, or Savage? :eek: :D

[mactastic]

mac,

you have to stop wearing those tin foil hats. You are beginning to channel right-wing conspiracy nut thinking far too clearly. BTW, does the foil pick up Limbaugh, Hannity, or Savage? :eek: :D

All the above. Plus a few others depending on the cloud cover. :p

[acdninjapan]

I think this is all irrelevant. The bottomline in these elections is that the man in the Oval Office is spending too much time playing pocketpool, is not taking proper care of the country's business and is reducing the United States to Third World status.

There are things that GWB should have done and should be doing, he's not a good businessman, politician or general. If you leave him in there for another 4 years you may as well start learning to speak the Al Queda version of Arabic or North Korean.

[Neserk]

However Al Gore spoke at one of their meetings, and both Kerry and his wife has connections with moveon. As well as does members of the DNC.


And your point is???

[pseudobrit]

And your point is???

Democrats and liberals are evil and anti-American.
Republicans and conservatives are righteous and patriotic.
There are no grey areas.

That's about what most of his posts I've seen are getting at, anyway.

[acdninjapan]

Democrats and liberals are evil and anti-American.
Republicans and conservatives are righteous and patriotic.
There are no grey areas.

That's about what most of his posts I've seen are getting at, anyway.

And he's sucking up to GWB who's sucking up to Osama bin Laden's pop. So I guess that makes GWB a tool of the Saudis.

This is like Bobby Fischer, he's been pro Arab for ages and can't understand why someone in the Saudi Embassy here in Tokyo turned information on his whereabouts over to the Japanese and the US....

[macsrus]

Democrats and liberals are evil and anti-American.
Republicans and conservatives are righteous and patriotic.
There are no grey areas.

That's about what most of his posts I've seen are getting at, anyway.

Reverse the names and it describes your posts....

[Leo Hubbard]

Democrats and liberals are evil and anti-American.
Republicans and conservatives are righteous and patriotic.
There are no grey areas.

That's about what most of his posts I've seen are getting at, anyway.
Troll.


I just had to say that since you like to call apparently everyone who disagrees with you a troll.

[mactastic]

I think a lot of you conservatives have never met an actual liberal, or a socialist. They don't get a lot of airplay. If we had a representative of Earth First! or a Workers Party type in this forum, then you'd get an idea of what an exterem liberal is.

We've had people in here arguing for extreme right views; almost no restrictions on 'freedom', any weapon the gov't has we should have, no limits on business, pure and total capitalism. But I don't recall anyone here arguing that everyone should share equally in everything. I don't recall anyone saying we don't have a right to use force ever.

Most of us are pretty moderate, with a few exceptions.

[IJ Reilly]

Most of us are pretty moderate, with a few exceptions.

The political center has moved so far to the right that moderation is now called radicalism by dogmatic right-wingers.

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
--- W.B. Yeats, The Second Coming

[mischief]

We seem to be accreting Zealous buildup.

Anyone want to go for the more caustic solvents on this one?

I for one am sick of this forum (not just this thread) being hijacked by Right Wing propoganda.

Pardon the following rant...

Yup, I'm a Liberal, a Socialist, an Anarchist AND a believer in a PURELY SECULAR government. Go check out my political compass and you'll find me deep in the southwest quadrant beyond Ghandi.

I believe that governance and debate should be based on two things ALONE: COMPASSION and REASON. These two things should be used to wed LOGIC, HUMANITY and FACTS in an effort to discern TRUTH and FAIR GOVERNANCE.

Any of you Zealous Rebs out there care to play with those rules on the table?

Kuyu, B2TM, Zim and several other non-zealot Rebs are not included in this rant BTW.

[zimv20]

Kuyu, B2TM, Zim and several other non-zealot Rebs are not included in this rant BTW.
errrr... did you just call me a republican?

[zimv20]

The political center has moved so far to the right that moderation is now called radicalism by dogmatic right-wingers.

it's worrisome to me when 'liberalism' is doing investigative journalism and questioning the actions of your government.

[mischief]

errrr... did you just call me a republican?

Ermm... Yer not? I've seen several posts that lead me to believe you were...

Perhaps it would help if there were a better catch-all term... there just seems to be this rash of rabidly zealous folks beating their chests for the GOP.

As an "undeclared" (no party) I find the whole partisan mess a bit nutty. It's another way to pollute the data stream with prejudice (as I just foolishly demonstrated).

Oops. :p :o

Heheh.... Got a bit cheesed there.... (sorry 'bout that other thread Rower.....)

[mischief]

it's worrisome to me when 'liberalism' is doing investigative journalism and questioning the actions of your government.

Bingo. It's been such a running theme in my mind I've neglected to post it.

[zimv20]

Ermm... Yer not? I've seen several posts that lead me to believe you were...
interesting. i wonder which ones.

i feel i'm socially liberal but fiscally conservative. i'm also a fan of personal responsibility, but recognize that society works better when everyone is given a chance to participate.

i'm pro: choice, UN, universal healthcare, independent media, secularism, gun control, gay marriage
i'm anti: war, trickle-down, executive fiat, obfuscation

[JesseJames]

All said and done. Okay ya'll.
It's pretty obvious that people are sick and tired of these campaign tactics. I know I sure as hell am. That's why we need to see some campaign finance reform and governance. Or at least some good taste exercised by running candidates.
It's amusing to me that in the greatest country in the world we can be swayed by such advertising. That it exists at all.
Don't these people know that they are insulting the intelligence of most Americans? I know they're insulting mine.
But then again maybe it's just democracy in action, for better or worse.

[mischief]

interesting. i wonder which ones.

i feel i'm socially liberal but fiscally conservative. i'm also a fan of personal responsibility, but recognize that society works better when everyone is given a chance to participate.

i'm pro: choice, UN, universal healthcare, independent media, secularism, gun control, gay marriage
i'm anti: war, trickle-down, executive fiat, obfuscation

Huh... Consider it a brainfart.

[zimv20]

Huh... Consider it a brainfart.
as long as my tax dollars aren't paying for it, okay.

;-)

[mischief]

as long as my tax dollars aren't paying for it, okay.

;-)

What if they're paying for research into using Brainfarts as an alternative mental energy source? :p ;)

[Thomas Veil]

The political center has moved so far to the right that moderation is now called radicalism by dogmatic right-wingers.

I for one am sick of this forum (not just this thread) being hijacked by Right Wing propoganda.

I think we liberals and true moderates made a big mistake when we more or less didn't respond to the whole Rush Limbaugh phenomenon. Sure, we got mad at first, but we laughed it off, assuring ourselves that he was just an entertainer, and had no real influence on the political atmosphere in this country.

Well, because his daily lie-fest was successful, the radical right has spawned a whole gaggle of media con artists who -- you gotta hand it to 'em -- simply excel at taking facts and twisting them to mean the opposite of what they are. It is 1984 come late, but it is Newspeak nonetheless. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. They've taken over talk radio, they have their own TV network now, and they are, unfortunately, very, very effective.

Their philosophy -- obvious from the moment Clinton won his first presidential election and blossoming again in the Kerry campaign -- seems to be that they are owed the White House, and that any means, no matter how perverse, are justified in reaching that end.

We can take some small comfort in the fact that guys like Al Franken are writing entire books of lie refutations, but the fact is that Franken is probably preaching to the choir. Lazy voters, who pay minimal attention to the facts, see the constant barrage of right-wing lies and often succumb to it.

While our government is practically owned by corporations and we're slowly seeing our jobs being converted to hamburger-flipping, the liars are telling us that the depressing realities we see around us aren't really happening. They're all in our imagination. And they have statistics to prove it. Oh, and by the way, look over there: the real enemy is not inside our borders; it's Iraq.

War is peace. We'll attack anybody we damn well please because it'll make us safer.

Freedom is slavery. We need to curtail your civil liberties in order to maintain the American Way of Life.

Ignorance is strength. Don't trust the "liberal" media. We'll tell you what to believe.

What a country.

[mischief]

An excellent rant. Perhaps I should begin a "Left-wing-pinko response rants to the riteous right wingers" thread. :p

[Leo Hubbard]

The political center has moved so far to the right that moderation is now called radicalism by dogmatic right-wingers.

correction the political center has moved left not right.
Believe it or not Socialism is extreme leftist. The center is far right of that. Liberalism is not centrist it is left. Center is right of that. That is not being radical, that is simply the way things are. Apparently freedom is considered an extreme right position. And that is just plain sick.


FYI center should be in my mind, those who believe in abiding by the BOR and the rest of our constitution as written. Around here it seems to me anyone who thinks we should follow the rule of law is an extreme rightest. That is also sick.

[blackfox]

OK Leo...I have a little mental exercise for you...think about this:

Would you agree that the US Media is a business (ie they need advertising dollars etc)? I would say it is difficult to argue otherwise...

Now, you have stated (repeatedly) that there is Liberal bias in the US Media...

Now if the Media is in the business of attracting viewers (as a business) and is Liberal-biased (as you suggest), then it follows that more US citizens (who consume the media) would also be Liberal-leaning...

If that is the case, then liberal becomes the center by demographics...


NOW

I do not agree with your assertion of Liberal media bias. I believe that Conservative "news" by the likes of FOX, Rush, Boortz and Hannity etc. have pushed a lazy public's perceptions to the right...with their polemic, ascerbic viewpoints which garner attention and fit the media business model (short, controversial rhetoric...little boring, complex, factual discourse)...

In this way, the above model would show that the center has now moved to the right, as IJ stated

So I ask you Leo...which is it?

If you choose the Liberal bias, then you must concede that your opinion is in the minority...

If you choose the Conservative-bias, then you may claim that US popular opinion is w/ you, but are not allowed to claim "Liberal media-bias" anymore...


(Special thanks to Mischief BTW...)

[meta-ghost]

MoveOn.org is a PAC, not a 527. Just to be clear, even though this has been raised numerous times.

actually, it has a few branches. one of which is a pac, one of which is a 527.

[mischief]

And thanker.

Here's a puzzler to add to yours...

Perhaps folks are both bitter/afraid and feel guilty/responsible. This would lead to both rabidly right wing op/ed and significantly Liberal leanings everywhere else.

This would mean a jaded market that likes to think itself humanitarian while behaving atrociously.

[Sayhey]

Over at CBS (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/08/25/opinion/meyer/main638571.shtml) there is a great commentary by Dick Meyer on the Swift Boat Ads and the Bush family's dirty tricks.

Dirty Tricks, Patrician Style

WASHINGTON, August 26, 2004

(CBS)*This Against the Grain commentary was written by CBSNews.com's Dick Meyer.

If you had any thought that the first presidential campaign after 9/11 would be especially sober and responsible, give it up.

There are a million angles to the saga of John Kerry and his swift boat enemies and none of them reveal anything virtuous about politics. But one element that is missing from this story is surprise.

Any student of Bush family campaigns could have seen the swift boat shiv shining a mile away. This old family has traditions – horseshoes, fishing, bad syntax and having the help do the dirty work in campaigns as well as the kitchen. And they are very good at getting jobs done without leaving fingerprints, without compromising their patrician image and their alleged character.

Even the audaciousness of this year’s episode is not surprising. Who would have believed that George Bush, with all the trouble over his National Guard service, could get John Kerry in hot water for his combat duty and medals in Vietnam? Well, anyone who saw what George Bush did to former POW John McCain in the 2000 primaries, which was even more outrageous....

[Lyle]

MoveOn.org is a PAC, not a 527. Just to be clear, even though this has been raised numerous times.And to be even more clear, to quote MoveOn.org's web site (http://www.moveon.org/about/):"The MoveOn family of organizations consists of three entities. MoveOn.org (http://www.moveon.org/), a 501(c)(4) organization, primarily focuses on education and advocacy on important national issues. MoveOn PAC (http://www.moveonpac.org/), a federal PAC, primarily helps members elect candidates who reflect our values. And MoveOn.org Voter Fund (http://www.moveonvoterfund.org/), a 527 organization, primarily educates voters on the positions, records, views, and qualifications of candidates for public office."

[mactastic]

So will the Americans far a Republican Majority PAC be shutting it's doors anytime soon? :p

[Lyle]

So will the Americans far a Republican Majority PAC be shutting it's doors anytime soon? :pI'm not sure if this was a response to my previous post about MoveOn's various branches, so if I'm reacting to something that you wanted someone else to react to, I apologize. ;)

In my opinion all of the niggling about whether this organization's a PAC or that organization's a 527 misses the point. Yes, I understand that there are various legal restrictions about who can donate to each, and how much and so on; that's not the point. Yes, there are strong, undeniable ties between each party and the "independent" groups that represent them; that's not the point, either. Just because you can find some legal justification (or loophole, as the case may be) to justify your side's actions doesn't make it any more noble.

I guess my point is that these kinds of organizations, on both sides of the political fence, continue to out-do each other on scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to smear the other side (with the "smearee" claiming foul play and the "smearer" claiming that they're just debating the issues). And I think that most voters, Republican, Democrat or otherwise, are fed up with the situation, believe that it's poisoning the political atmosphere and could care less whether the group sponsoring the latest attack ad is a 527 or a PAC.

Thus ends the rant. And by the way, mac, the "you" in the above doesn't refer to you, but rather the collective "you" that, um, "we" are. ;)

[blackfox]

Karl Rove has come out of hiding for an interview w/ Britt Hume @ Fox News to address (in part) the SBVFT/527 Deal...here is a link to the interview on Fox (it is RealPlayer...sorry):
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/player.html?11676&Special_Report&Rove%20on%20Swift%20Boats&elec&You%20Decide%202004&8&ram-300

Decide for yourself whether Rove is gloating or playing damage-control...

Also notice that Hume does not ask the pertinent question (ie Rove's opinion(s) of the validity of the SBVFT assertions etc)...

Also, a new documentary has been released (in limited markets) called "Bush's Brain"...pretty interesting review/synopsis...NYT review here:
http://movies2.nytimes.com/2004/08/27/movies/27BRAI.html

[mactastic]

I'm not sure if this was a response to my previous post about MoveOn's various branches, so if I'm reacting to something that you wanted someone else to react to, I apologize. ;)

In my opinion all of the niggling about whether this organization's a PAC or that organization's a 527 misses the point. Yes, I understand that there are various legal restrictions about who can donate to each, and how much and so on; that's not the point. Yes, there are strong, undeniable ties between each party and the "independent" groups that represent them; that's not the point, either. Just because you can find some legal justification (or loophole, as the case may be) to justify your side's actions doesn't make it any more noble.

I guess my point is that these kinds of organizations, on both sides of the political fence, continue to out-do each other on scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to smear the other side (with the "smearee" claiming foul play and the "smearer" claiming that they're just debating the issues). And I think that most voters, Republican, Democrat or otherwise, are fed up with the situation, believe that it's poisoning the political atmosphere and could care less whether the group sponsoring the latest attack ad is a 527 or a PAC.

Thus ends the rant. And by the way, mac, the "you" in the above doesn't refer to you, but rather the collective "you" that, um, "we" are. ;)

Indeed you are correct. These groups contribute to the poisoned atmosphere that is American politics these days. Unfortunately I don't think the Dems have the luxury of staying out of the sewer that Karl Rove has sunk to. If there is to be any chance of a Kerry presidency the Democrats have to fight fire with fire. If these swifties are going to lie about Kerry, Kerry needs to get dirty swinging back. I think a lot of people will tell you that they don't like dirty politics, but they will gladly watch the bloodsport when it occurs. Rove understands this, and unless Kerry gets it through his head he will lose to Bush's Brain.

[mactastic]

I'm not sure if this was a response to my previous post about MoveOn's various branches, so if I'm reacting to something that you wanted someone else to react to, I apologize. ;)

In my opinion all of the niggling about whether this organization's a PAC or that organization's a 527 misses the point. Yes, I understand that there are various legal restrictions about who can donate to each, and how much and so on; that's not the point. Yes, there are strong, undeniable ties between each party and the "independent" groups that represent them; that's not the point, either. Just because you can find some legal justification (or loophole, as the case may be) to justify your side's actions doesn't make it any more noble.

I guess my point is that these kinds of organizations, on both sides of the political fence, continue to out-do each other on scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to smear the other side (with the "smearee" claiming foul play and the "smearer" claiming that they're just debating the issues). And I think that most voters, Republican, Democrat or otherwise, are fed up with the situation, believe that it's poisoning the political atmosphere and could care less whether the group sponsoring the latest attack ad is a 527 or a PAC.

Thus ends the rant. And by the way, mac, the "you" in the above doesn't refer to you, but rather the collective "you" that, um, "we" are. ;)

Indeed you are correct. These groups contribute to the poisoned atmosphere that is American politics these days. Unfortunately I don't think the Dems have the luxury of staying out of the sewer that Karl Rove has sunk to. If there is to be any chance of a Kerry presidency the Democrats have to fight fire with fire. If these swifties are going to lie about Kerry, Kerry needs to get dirty swinging back. I think a lot of people will tell you that they don't like dirty politics, but they will gladly watch the bloodsport when it occurs. Rove understands this, and unless Kerry gets it through his head he will lose to Bush's Brain.

[Thomas Veil]

If there is to be any chance of a Kerry presidency the Democrats have to fight fire with fire. If these swifties are going to lie about Kerry, Kerry needs to get dirty swinging back.
Unfortunately, I largely agree with you. Rove & Co. have Kerry where they want him: on the defensive. He can keep finding people to verify the truth of what he's been saying, but the fact is he's constantly playing defense lately.

He's going to need to go on offense. "Okay, you want to play this game? I'm going to talk about Bush's AWOL status, his avoidance of allegations of drug and alcohol abuse, etc., etc., and I'm going to keep talking about them every single day, just as long as you Swifties keep talking about my duty in Vietnam."

Then he's got to follow up by talking about Bush's record as president.

Hell, Kerry doesn't even have to lie. He just has to keep hammering at the truth.

[Leo Hubbard]

Unfortunately, I largely agree with you. Rove & Co. have Kerry where they want him: on the defensive. He can keep finding people to verify the truth of what he's been saying, but the fact is he's constantly playing defense lately.

He's going to need to go on offense. "Okay, you want to play this game? I'm going to talk about Bush's AWOL status, his avoidance of allegations of drug and alcohol abuse, etc., etc., and I'm going to keep talking about them every single day, just as long as you Swifties keep talking about my duty in Vietnam."

Then he's got to follow up by talking about Bush's record as president.

Hell, Kerry doesn't even have to lie. He just has to keep hammering at the truth.
Why don't he start by bragging about his record while he was in the Senate?
What bills has he iniciated that got passed?
What bills has he written?
What chairs did he hold in the Senate?
What did he really accomplish while in the Senate, excluding those bills where he took both sides of the issues?

[kuyu]

We seem to be accreting Zealous buildup.

Kuyu, B2TM, Zim and several other non-zealot Rebs are not included in this rant BTW.

I too am a moderate (not a republican). Thanks for not thinking me a zealot. I try dilligently to not come off as one. My intention in the political forum is to engage in debate regarding the current issues facing our government and people and to consider points of view that differ from my own. Thereby I might better understand the dynamic of American politics, policy, and people.

While I must seem to the casual reader to be some kind of Bush fanatic, I assure you that I am not. I've never voted for the guy. In fact, I've always voted a split ticket. However, I am a finance student and the nature of my course of study seems to ally me with the conservative movement in as much as growth, longrun stability and an outright fear of a socialist economy are conservative ideals.

[mischief]

I too am a moderate (not a republican). Thanks for not thinking me a zealot. I try dilligently to not come off as one.

(snip)

However, I am a finance student and the nature of my course of study seems to ally me with the conservative movement in as much as growth, longrun stability and an outright fear of a socialist economy are conservative ideals.

Eek. I had a bad case of cranial gas yesterday apparently...

I have a Thread I'll be starting later to go over some of these terms that have been thrown around. It seems that social, economic and political lingo is getting very much muddled together.

[Sayhey]

Looks like the worm is turning in the Swift Boat fiasco. The majority of Americans now think the Bush campaign is behind these smears. Also of interest, the number of people who think Kerry did not earn his medals is now dropping.

Poll: Growing number of Americans think Bush campaign behind ads attacking Kerry's war record

WILL LESTER, Associated Press Writer

(08-27) 15:50 PDT NEW YORK (AP) --

Americans increasingly believe President Bush's re-election campaign is behind the ads attacking Democrat John Kerry's Vietnam experience, a poll found.

Almost half in a poll taken this week say they think the president's campaign is behind the ads that try to undercut Kerry's medals for heroism while just over a third think the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is an independent group, the National Annenberg Election Survey found.

The Swift boat ads, which ran in three swing states earlier this month, challenged Kerry's wartime service in Vietnam for which he received five medals.

The public's belief that Kerry did not earn his medals grew to 30 percent when the attack ads got widespread publicity on cable news networks. But that number has dropped to 24 percent now.

Kerry's campaign has accused President Bush of involvement in the ad campaign, a charge that was stepped up after Bush campaign counsel Benjamin Ginsberg acknowledged he was advising the group and resigned Wednesday from the Bush campaign.

In polling from Monday through Thursday, 46 percent said they believed the Bush campaign was behind the ads and 37 percent said they thought the ads were done independently.

The president and his campaign staff have said repeatedly they have no connection to the ads, which have come under increasing criticism as Navy records and additional witnesses backed Kerry's version of events.

On Monday and Tuesday when the Kerry campaign was making the accusation Bush was involved, 42 percent said the Bush campaign was behind them and 41 percent said they were truly independent.

After Ginsberg resigned from the campaign on Wednesday, 50 percent said in polling the next two nights that the Bush campaign was connected to the ads and 34 percent said it was not.

Ginsberg and lawyers on the Democratic side have represented both the campaigns or party and outside groups running ads in the presidential race.

The poll of 1,244 adults was taken Aug. 23-28 and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.


SF Chronicle (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/08/27/politics1850EDT0749.DTL)

[Neserk]

oops...

[zimv20]

hmmmm...

i think kerry is behind the swift boat ads. he knew there'd eventually be a backlash against bush. likewise, bush got his pal soros to contribute money to moveon, hoping for a backlash against kerry. ("let's compare me to hitler!" bush giggled to a team of serious-looking semi-professional video editors)

</kidding>

[SPG]

These swiftboat veteran attacks are attacks on all veterans.
Bush refuses to condemn these attacks on a veteran who fought in Vietnam and was wounded. Rove and company attacked McCain in the runup to the 2000 election saying that he was crazy from being imprisoned so long in Vietnam. Then Cleland was compared to BinLaden because he didn't toe the line, Cleland remember lost three limbs in Vietnam.
So who supports the vets?

[SPG]

Oregon State Bar
5200 S. W. Meadows Road
Lake Oswego, OR 97035

Alfred J. French III, Esq.
Clackamas County DA's Office
Oregon City, OR 97045

Dear Mr. French:

The Oregon State Bar has received the enclosed correspondence and e-mails from numerous sources. *Pursuant to Bar Rule of Procedure 2.5(a), the Client Assistance Office reviews all inquiries regarding lawyer conduct to determine whether there is credible evidence of misconduct. *Some of these concerns may implicate the provisions of DR 1-102(A)(1) and DR 103(A)(3).

Many of the inquiries contend that your affidavit and the advertisement make representations that are misleading. *Please explain what role you played in preparing and producing the affidavit and the advertisement, and your intent in doing so.

In order for me to make a fair and informed analysis, I would like to have your account of the matter on or before September 9, 2004. *I am able to grant an extension of the time to respond for good cause if requested before the deadline.

A copy of your response will be sent to the inquiring parties. *All material submitted by the parties in the course of this investigation is public record and both parties will receive copies.

After I review all documentation and information gathered in this matter, if I feel that further investigation is warranted or that there is credible evidence of a violation of the disciplinary rules, the matter will be referred to Disciplinary Counsel's Office for further handling pursuant to BR 2.5(a)(2). *Your failure to respond to this request will also result in the matter being referred to Disciplinary Counsel's Office.

Sincerely,

Scott A. Morrill
Assistant General Counsel