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brdoco
Aug 24, 2004, 12:17 PM
Power Mac G3 350MHz
640 MB RAM

Is this gonna be enough to run panther?

i'm not looking for it to be my main machine. i've got a g4 powerbook that is my main box. but since i've gotten it, i've wanted a desktop mac, too...

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 12:23 PM
Power Mac G3 350MHz
640 MB RAM

Is this gonna be enough to run panther?

i'm not looking for it to be my main machine. i've got a g4 powerbook that is my main box. but since i've gotten it, i've wanted a desktop mac, too...


It's a G3...

Apple already doesn't really support them anymore... so why would you waste money on something that's already so outdated Apple won't support it?

brdoco
Aug 24, 2004, 12:27 PM
cause $100 is pretty cheap..

I know that's apple doesn't support them. i was just wondering if someone out there had experience running panther on a similar box. and if so, how painful it was.

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 12:28 PM
cause $100 is pretty cheap..

I know that's apple doesn't support them. i was just wondering if someone out there had experience running panther on a similar box. and if so, how painful it was.


Let's put it this way. I have Panther on my G3 iBook 500 / 384 RAM, and to me it runs ASS slow... so slow even that I gave it to my grandfather, who just bought a printer for it yesterday, that when it printed, it spooled so slowly the PRINTER had to stop printing waiting for the COMPUTER to catch up... -_-

Biker21098
Aug 24, 2004, 12:43 PM
Last year I bought my parents a 350 G3 blue/white tower so they could use ichat and photoshop and print while i was at college. it has like 400MB+ RAM is all, i also overclocked it to 400MHz which is very easy to do with jumpers. That is a good way to get a little more pep out of it. It is currently running 10.3.5. It fine. I use it as a print server and simple things when Im in town. It is def. slow for photoshop but it gets the job done. For a 100 bucks its totally worth it. They are great reliable machines. Mine does SETI 24/7 does print serving, and all my moms digital photos, 7+ GB. So ya, buy it, it's always nice to have a machine to test things on. If you have any other question feel free to ask, I like having mine around. Its slow of course compared to my G4 powermac and book, but hey its a mac right, what could eb better than that. better than having an old win box around running XP on a PIII 900 MHz, now that is painful. ANyways, good luck, I think you'll enjoy it, many uses with a slightly slower G3 machine.

brdoco
Aug 24, 2004, 12:53 PM
good to hear, thanks.

i'd definiltely be interested in what you did to overclock it, too.

Biker21098
Aug 24, 2004, 01:04 PM
Here are a few:

http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G3-ZONE/yosemite/OC.html

http://www.lowendmac.com/macdan/02/0710ek.html

http://drivejumper.com/ClockupG3/b&wclockup.html

That last one is the site I used, I just found it first. Most likely you won't be able to get 450 out of yours, but you might with some software to slow down the cache. Heat doesn't at all seem to be an issue. Good luck

janey
Aug 24, 2004, 01:07 PM
dude, that machine would be _so_ sweet as a server or router or something along those lines :)

Horrortaxi
Aug 24, 2004, 02:26 PM
Let me give you the other side--yes, it'll work. I'm not sure what "ass slow" is but I'm sure it depends on what you need your computer to do. I also disagree with whoever said Apple doesn't support G3s anymore. It's clearly supported by the current OS and most apps will run on one. If that's not support I don't know what is.

For a second computer that won't get the processor intensive stuff thrown at it, or as a primary computer for someone who doesn't need to be on the cutting edge, this computer with Panther is an excellent choice. Odd as it will sound to some of you, lots of people use these very same Macs to earn a living running Photoshop, Flash, etc.

Using this computer as a server or a router is a waste of a good Mac. If you're not going to use it, sell it to somebody who needs it.

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 02:32 PM
Let me give you the other side--yes, it'll work. I'm not sure what "ass slow" is but I'm sure it depends on what you need your computer to do. I also disagree with whoever said Apple doesn't support G3s anymore. It's clearly supported by the current OS and most apps will run on one. If that's not support I don't know what is.

For a second computer that won't get the processor intensive stuff thrown at it, or as a primary computer for someone who doesn't need to be on the cutting edge, this computer with Panther is an excellent choice. Odd as it will sound to some of you, lots of people use these very same Macs to earn a living running Photoshop, Flash, etc.

Using this computer as a server or a router is a waste of a good Mac. If you're not going to use it, sell it to somebody who needs it.

It's already been announced that further OS revisions will not have the necessary support for many features on a G3 machine, so in that regard any form of future planning should be disregarded.

Furthermore I should ask you if you've even used a machine comparable to this recently... I still HAVE my iBook and I can tell you that it lags considerably, even opening up the HD. And this is after I've repaired as much as I can on it.

evil_santa
Aug 24, 2004, 03:08 PM
i run 10.3.5 on a ibook 300mhz & imac 233mhz. Both ok for internet, mail & itunes :)

seamuskrat
Aug 24, 2004, 03:30 PM
This is a solid machine.
IF its a blue and White tower, you CAn run Panther. As for speed, it will run fair as is. If you get a decent PCI video card it will run well. If you invest another 125 for a G4 it will run very well.

I have a BW G3 tower that was upgraded to a G4 500. A PCI Radeon 7000. It benchmarks with XBench along side my Sawtooth 450. Of course, by today's standards that is slow. But for 250 it is a steal, and in all honesty, using that machine for Safari, Office, and iTunes music playing it works just fine. Will it play new games, nope. Does it ever slow down? Of course, but does it open PDFs, do word and such fine, and play music and surf the web? Sure nuff and Panther runs fine.

Do not let others tell you because its old it will not work. If you have no Mac or one older, it will be better. Even stock as a G3 350, Panther will be usable. A g4 upgrade from www.macsales.com will help a lot as OS X loves the G4. But it will be a solid Mac with Pather.
If its a BEIGE G3 you will needs hacks to run Panther. That generation runs Jag fine, but its quirky with Panther and that is WITh the hacks.

Power Mac G3 350MHz
640 MB RAM

Is this gonna be enough to run panther?

i'm not looking for it to be my main machine. i've got a g4 powerbook that is my main box. but since i've gotten it, i've wanted a desktop mac, too...

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 03:34 PM
Do not let others tell you because its old it will not work. If you have no Mac or one older, it will be better. Even stock as a G3 350, Panther will be usable. A g4 upgrade from www.macsales.com will help a lot as OS X loves the G4. But it will be a solid Mac with Pather.
If its a BEIGE G3 you will needs hacks to run Panther. That generation runs Jag fine, but its quirky with Panther and that is WITh the hacks.


When the time comes, he'll see...

Then I can say, I told you so.

seamuskrat
Aug 24, 2004, 03:34 PM
Yes, but if it does TODAY what they need, then why does TOMORROW matter so much? It is a good deal and even as a G3 Panther does run, apps do work, and each individual's expectations of an OS will vary. Some are used to some wait and responsiveness, others cannot tolerate anything.
Will Tiger run on it? Probably not. But to use Panther of today with Office X and Mail, and Safari it will do just fine. If the Mac costs 100, plus a G4 upgrade for 125 and a video card for 100 its 325. You still cannot get a tower chasis Mac for under 400 at 500 mhz with a G4, so its not a bad deal. Its got Firewire, USB, and if its a rev 2 you can add more internal drives. Not bad. Will is crank out garageband tunes or FCP effects/ Nope, but then the user should go buy a modern Mac. But for hoe or simple office use its just fine.
It's already been announced that further OS revisions will not have the necessary support for many features on a G3 machine, so in that regard any form of future planning should be disregarded.

Furthermore I should ask you if you've even used a machine comparable to this recently... I still HAVE my iBook and I can tell you that it lags considerably, even opening up the HD. And this is after I've repaired as much as I can on it.

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 03:36 PM
Yes, but if it does TODAY what they need, then why does TOMORROW matter so much? It is a good deal and even as a G3 Panther does run, apps do work, and each individual's expectations of an OS will vary. Some are used to some wait and responsiveness, others cannot tolerate anything.
Will Tiger run on it? Probably not. But to use Panther of today with Office X and Mail, and Safari it will do just fine. If the Mac costs 100, plus a G4 upgrade for 125 and a video card for 100 its 325. You still cannot get a tower chasis Mac for under 400 at 500 mhz with a G4, so its not a bad deal. Its got Firewire, USB, and if its a rev 2 you can add more internal drives. Not bad. Will is crank out garageband tunes or FCP effects/ Nope, but then the user should go buy a modern Mac. But for hoe or simple office use its just fine.


Well, I suppose the most important thing at the moment is what he will be using it for. Like I noted above, my 500 mhz iBook had trouble spooling a Word document with just the text "test" on it, to the extent that the printer was waiting for the CPU to finish spooling. That, in my mind, is pretty damn sad.

Mord
Aug 24, 2004, 03:38 PM
dude i run 10.4 on a b&w g3 stop being analy retentive. panther will be fine and it's supported for 10.4 for $100 get that thing as fast as you can, where are you getting it from may i ask?

your ibook, dude has a 66MHz bus a 2.5" HD and a video card thats about half as fast, the 500MHz ice books sucked, once you get onto the 600MHz mobility radeon ibooks they are fine macs and i'm typeing on one 10.4 right now and i can sure as hell fire up open office and not have any lag (dont use mico$oft stuff)

(btw get a 7200rpm HD in there and a cheap g4 upgrade and you blazeing away)

as a final note were talking about $100 here look at www.lowendmac.com they are b&w lovers and there value is high enough that you could sell it straight and make a profit.

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 03:47 PM
dude i run 10.4 on a b&w g3 stop being analy retentive. panther will be fine and it's supported for 10.4 for $100 get that thing as fast as you can, where are you getting it from may i ask?

your ibook, dude has a 66MHz bus a 2.5" HD and a video card thats about half as fast, the 500MHz ice books sucked, once you get onto the 600MHz mobility radeon ibooks they are fine macs and i'm typeing on one 10.4 right now and i can sure as hell fire up open office and not have any lag (dont use mico$oft stuff)

(btw get a 7200rpm HD in there and a cheap g4 upgrade and you blazeing away)

as a final note were talking about $100 here look at www.lowendmac.com they are b&w lovers and there value is high enough that you could sell it straight and make a profit.


Really, you run 10.4? How might I ask do you HAVE 10.4 WHEN IT'S NOT YET BEEN RELEASED?

Furthermore, the B&W only has a 33 mhz gain on bus speed... not enough to make up for a 150 mhz CPU difference... so you're clearly wrong there.

On top of that, the graphics chipset is THE SAME. The only thing that is different is the VRAM, which for Panther won't even make a difference, since QX isn't even enabled on PCI video-based Macs...

You seriously have NO idea what you're talking about... why would he put more money into an already aging computer, when he could have put it into a better PB in the first place...

Mord
Aug 24, 2004, 03:52 PM
Really, you run 10.4? How might I ask do you HAVE 10.4 WHEN IT'S NOT YET BEEN RELEASED?

Furthermore, the B&W only has a 33 mhz gain on bus speed... not enough to make up for a 150 mhz CPU difference... so you're clearly wrong there.

On top of that, the graphics chipset is THE SAME. The only thing that is different is the VRAM, which for Panther won't even make a difference, since QX isn't even enabled on PCI video-based Macs...

You seriously have NO idea what you're talking about... why would he put more money into an already aging computer, when he could have put it into a better PB in the first place...

I'm running 10.4 developers preview, the cpu speed is badly bottlenecked by the sytem bus on your ibook, it slows down the ram and the entire system, as for the video card being twice as fast it is as vram makes a big difference when it's that low and mobile chips are a fair bit slower than desktop versions, as for quartz you can enable it via a hack called pci extreme or somthing, you need a radeon 7000 or 9200, you can pick up a flashed 7000 cheaply.

and as i said a 3.5" HD makes a huge speed difference, ecpecially if you get a 7200rpm one.

fortionally for me you are the one that dosen't know what you are talking about.

hehehehe

seamuskrat
Aug 24, 2004, 04:06 PM
Just for the record:

There are many users of Blue and White G3 towers that are very happy with them. They can be upgraded rather extensively and whether wise or not, made to go as fast a 1gig. In most cases this is fine for normal uses.

I have never owned an older generation iBook, but I do have a 500 Pismo and it runs Tiger Dev Preview. I have not tried it on my BW G3 system. As a developer, ( I attenedded WWDC) I test on older Macs in case of diaster. My Pismo runs 10.4 about as fast as I would expect an early OS to run. Its slower than Panther, but faster than Cheetah and about the same as Jaguar was on this model.

Bottom line, is that older Macs do have a life. Its hard to compare desktops to laptops in older Macs as the video chips were radically different and the bus speeds varied a lot.

Also, how the OS was installed makes a difference. Whether technically accurate or not, if you have a drive that is upgraded from 9.2 to 10.0, to 10.1, etc. It will not perform as well as a clean installed drive of 10.3 I have two twin macs and I know this as one was upgraded cause I was too lazy to back up the other I wiped and there is a noticeable difference in responsiveness.

But speed is subjective. Some folks also like the idea of hacking and building their Mac. I say whatever works. Plus, how many PC users can say that XP Pro runs on their 1999 PC? You have to hand it to Apple that 10.3 runs useably well on a 1999 Mac. With RAM update.

Sun Baked
Aug 24, 2004, 04:10 PM
Look at this...

http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html

Quite a few of these older machines won't be coming along to the Tiger party, but they'll run Panther.

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 04:12 PM
10.4 developers preview, the cpu speed is badly bottlenecked and it slows down the ram and the entire system, as for the video card being twice as fast it is as vram makes a big difference when it's that low and mobile chips are a fair bit slower than desktop versions, as for quartz you can enable it via a hack called pci extreme or somthing, you need a radeon 7000 or 9200, you can pick up a flashed 7000 cheaply.

and as i said a 3.5" HD makes a huge speed difference, ecpecially if you get a 7200rpm one.

fortionally for me you are the one that dosen't know what you are talking about.

hehehehe

Unfortunately for me, your English is so horrible I can't understand half the things you say!

But as far as it goes,
1) Why do you want him to spend MORE money on a machine that is already obsolete, and not even really worth saving?
2) You've just said there's huge CPU bottlenecks! And even with a slower processor, where the bottleneck will be less, it's STILL A SLOWER CPU.


Basically, you're encouraging him to not just spend $100, but add another $200 onto that... that's a good deal??? Half the things, such as replacing the HD, flashing the video card, or hacking the OS for PCI QX he MAY NOT EVEN KNOW HOW TO DO, and IT MAY TAKE HIM LONGER TO FIGURE THAT OUT THAN IF HE JUST GOT A NEWER COMPUTER!!!!

Nice job, being wrong again, that is.

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 04:14 PM
But speed is subjective. Some folks also like the idea of hacking and building their Mac. I say whatever works. Plus, how many PC users can say that XP Pro runs on their 1999 PC? You have to hand it to Apple that 10.3 runs useably well on a 1999 Mac. With RAM update.


I agree with you here, but what I'm saying is that all everyone has pointed to here was not just that he should spend $100, but upgrade and upgrade and upgrade for at least another $200 more!

If I had that $300, I'd have just put it towards a faster PB, rather than trying to resurrect an older machine that IMO requires just too much time and effort to salvage...

rhpenguin
Aug 24, 2004, 04:46 PM
Who honnestly cares if he wants to spend a little more money and make a desktop mac run a little better. It will still do for day to day tasks (IM, web browsing, e-mail, iTunes etc..). Actually i just bought an older Mac (the B&W in my sig) to do Dreamweaver development on as well as a few other apps i would rather run on a desktop vs. my iBook just so theyre in one place all the time.

Older Macs can still do a lot with a few little upgrades, but its never going to be a G5.

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 04:50 PM
Who honnestly cares if he wants to spend a little more money and make a desktop mac run a little better. It will still do for day to day tasks (IM, web browsing, e-mail, iTunes etc..). Actually i just bought an older Mac (the B7W in my sig) to do Dreamweaver development on as well as a few other apps i would rather run on a desktop vs. my iBook just so theyre in one place all the time.

Older Macs can still do a lot with a few little upgrades, but its never going to be a G5.


.... He might? Maybe he's in a tight budget already, and that's why he wants a low end mac, not a newer one?

rhpenguin
Aug 24, 2004, 04:56 PM
.... He might? Maybe he's in a tight budget already, and that's why he wants a low end mac, not a newer one?

Im refering to like a HDD upgrade (40gb even would be a decent upgrade if you can still find that size of drive) or RAM (PC133 is uber cheap)...

A new HDD is a must if your going to run Panther though.. 6GB or so is VERY limiting..

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 05:10 PM
Im refering to like a HDD upgrade (40gb even would be a decent upgrade if you can still find that size of drive) or RAM (PC133 is uber cheap)...

A new HDD is a must if your going to run Panther though.. 6GB or so is VERY limiting..


The one thing though, is that I've had a hell of a time finding smaller capacity drives... most are 80+ at the least nowadays...

rhpenguin
Aug 24, 2004, 05:24 PM
Which will still work fine in a B&W with the stock IDE controller...

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 05:28 PM
Which will still work fine in a B&W with the stock IDE controller...


Which I've found to be more expensive ($/gb) than newer, hi capacity drives.

Sharewaredemon
Aug 24, 2004, 06:49 PM
Yikes,
this thread is getting kinda vicious,
the guy with the ibook 500 who says panther is slow seems odd to me as my dad has the same computer and it runs panther quite fine. So I don't understand how your ibook can't even print. Odd, wasn't panther supposed to support older g3's and make them a tad bit faster?

It seems for what you want that that machine is suitable

Mord
Aug 24, 2004, 06:59 PM
Unfortunately for me, your English is so horrible I can't understand half the things you say!

But as far as it goes,
1) Why do you want him to spend MORE money on a machine that is already obsolete, and not even really worth saving?
2) You've just said there's huge CPU bottlenecks! And even with a slower processor, where the bottleneck will be less, it's STILL A SLOWER CPU.


Basically, you're encouraging him to not just spend $100, but add another $200 onto that... that's a good deal??? Half the things, such as replacing the HD, flashing the video card, or hacking the OS for PCI QX he MAY NOT EVEN KNOW HOW TO DO, and IT MAY TAKE HIM LONGER TO FIGURE THAT OUT THAN IF HE JUST GOT A NEWER COMPUTER!!!!

Nice job, being wrong again, that is.

don't even go there on my english, it's not my fault you cant read straight. it's a forum not a english test.

it was a typo the cpu thing i was going to say that the 66MHz fsb bottlenecked it and i could not edit it as the server was busy so i just noticed it as i clicked post.

the guy said he wanted a desktop, presumably so he can surf ect he has not said what he wanted this for yet so he may be better off just getting an emac but thats like $800, by the looks of things he dosen't have $800.

i don't know the skill level of this guy and neither do you, the hack is simply downloading it and installing it, it dose not take a genius. as for flashing all that required is downloading the rom poping the card in a spare pci slot and using a program called ati flash or something like that.


why spend money on an old mac (it's not obsolete many people make there livings from these macs and even older ones) well first off it's cheap, second off he could use it as a server third he could fill it with HD's and use it to back stuff up, fourth it's perfectly fine for going online playing itunes, most of the iapps mail, photoshop, even an older version of final cut pro will run on it, he has enough ram i even play quake 3 on my g3 over my lan when friends come over, it's a damn fine mac and is perfectly good if you do not need to do 3d rendering, gaming, or any heavy pro work.

a g3 may not be a good mac for him it may be a brilliant mac for him i don't know his needs and neither do you stop being stupid about it dose not help in the slightest.

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 07:12 PM
don't even go there on my english, it's not my fault you cant read straight. it's a forum not a english test.

it was a typo the cpu thing i was going to say that the 66MHz fsb bottlenecked it and i could not edit it as the server was busy so i just noticed it as i clicked post.

the guy said he wanted a desktop, presumably so he can surf ect he has not said what he wanted this for yet so he may be better off just getting an emac but thats like $800, by the looks of things he dosen't have $800.

i don't know the skill level of this guy and neither do you, the hack is simply downloading it and installing it, it dose not take a genius. as for flashing all that required is downloading the rom poping the card in a spare pci slot and using a program called ati flash or something like that.


why spend money on an old mac (it's not obsolete many people make there livings from these macs and even older ones) well first off it's cheap, second off he could use it as a server third he could fill it with HD's and use it to back stuff up, fourth it's perfectly fine for going online playing itunes, most of the iapps mail, photoshop, even an older version of final cut pro will run on it, he has enough ram i even play quake 3 on my g3 over my lan when friends come over, it's a damn fine mac and is perfectly good if you do not need to do 3d rendering, gaming, or any heavy pro work.

a g3 may not be a good mac for him it may be a brilliant mac for him i don't know his needs and neither do you stop being stupid about it dose not help in the slightest.

Again, I'm only criticizing your English because some of your posts are quite illegible... no punctuation and very poor grammar.

But as for his needs, yes, I realize none of us know. But I maintain that it doesn't seem worth it to upgrade the B&W. It is however worth it just to purchase the base machine for $100. As it's been said above, he could even just sell the machine for a profit right off the bat.

As for flashing cards... I don't think you've flashed one. Some require jumper adjustments, and others don't even have the right voltage. If you flash an improper card and insert it, you could short circuit your PCI or AGP slot, and even fry your mobo if it's done incorrectly. I'm very wary of flashing, and I prefer not to do it, even if it saves a few $$$.

Also, for all we know, $100 may be all he has to spare at the moment, so upgrading may not even be an option.

As for the bus bottleneck, it's not going to be nearly as significant as the CPU bottleneck. You're talking about a 150 mhz difference on the CPU, and only a 33 mhz difference on the bus. Now, if it was a difference from 167 to 900, for instance from a G4 to a G5, then that's obviously different. But the bottlenecking you "think" will happen between a 66 and 100 mhz bus isn't nearly as significant as you think.

Furthermore, I find it curious how a 16 year old, in England, no less, was able to get a Tiger preview...

Horrortaxi
Aug 24, 2004, 07:16 PM
It's already been announced that further OS revisions will not have the necessary support for many features on a G3 machine, so in that regard any form of future planning should be disregarded.

Furthermore I should ask you if you've even used a machine comparable to this recently... I still HAVE my iBook and I can tell you that it lags considerably, even opening up the HD. And this is after I've repaired as much as I can on it.

Nobody asked about the future. That computer will run the current OS beautifully. I don't know for certain if it will meet the requirements and neither do you. I do know that a lot of developers are running Tiger on G3s though.

Have I used a computer comperable to that one lately? No, they've all been slower. Rev A and Rev D iMacs and a few beige G3s (Jag on the beige, Panther on everything else). No problems. I've also used Panther on a 500mhz iBook just like yours--128MB stock RAM. I'm well qualified to say there isn't a problem with Panther on these computers.

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 07:22 PM
I've also used Panther on a 500mhz iBook just like yours--128MB stock RAM. I'm well qualified to say there isn't a problem with Panther on these computers.


And I'm qualified to tell you that there is a problem with Panther on those computers... and mine has 384 MB RAM!

I can even prove to you just how laggy it runs... it's so bad my grandfather commented on how slowly it printed!

To print a one page document it took the iBook about 1:30 to spool fully. The printer had already begun printing but stopped many times midway through to wait for the computer to catch up.

That, in my mind, is very much SUB par performance. Say what you will but I can prove it... your basis is only observation that it runs "decently."

Having the PRINTER wait for the COMPUTER to send it enough data?

Yeah, thats REAL decent to me :rolleyes:

Mord
Aug 24, 2004, 07:34 PM
Again, I'm only criticizing your English because some of your posts are quite illegible... no punctuation and very poor grammar.

But as for his needs, yes, I realize none of us know. But I maintain that it doesn't seem worth it to upgrade the B&W. It is however worth it just to purchase the base machine for $100. As it's been said above, he could even just sell the machine for a profit right off the bat.

As for flashing cards... I don't think you've flashed one. Some require jumper adjustments, and others don't even have the right voltage. If you flash and improper card and insert it, you could short circuit your PCI or AGP slot, and even fry your mobo if it's done incorrectly. I'm very wary of flashing, and I prefer not to do it, even if it saves a few $$$.

Also, for all we know, $100 may be all he has to spare at the moment, so upgrading may not even be an option.

As for the bus bottleneck, it's not going to be nearly as significant as the CPU bottleneck. You're talking about a 150 mhz difference on the CPU, and only a 33 mhz difference on the bus. Now, if it was a difference from 167 to 900, for instance from a G4 to a G5, then that's obviously different. But the bottlenecking you "think" will happen between a 66 and 100 mhz bus isn't nearly as significant as you think.

Furthermore, I find it curious how a 16 year old, in England, no less, was able to get a Tiger preview...

i'm 15 and an apple technician i like to start young hehehe.

as for flashing video cards i have flashed countless 7000's one 9100 and i helped flash one 9800 for a friend as for electronic incompatibilitys what are you on about? are you talking about how agp 8x cards wont work with a 2x mac, because of the volatge difference? because they will if you tape some connectors to stop the card useing a voltage your mac dose not have and make it use a different one

as for flashing a 7000 is very simple as it requires no resistor moves at all it just requires flashing it with a 64k reduced rom which i can give to anyone that pm's me.

a difference between a 66MHz and a 100MHz bus is bigger than you think look at the g3 in question, you can upgrade it with a sonnet g4 1GHz zif and it downclocks the system bus to 66MHz and some b&w owners that upgraded from a 500MHz g4 card claimed it felt more like a downgrade there cpu xbench score went up but everything elce went down and the system felt slower for most tasks, you can see with your ibook how a slow system bus can drag it down, try to see if you can use a b&w tower to see how much faster it feels. as i have used a 500MHz ibook (my friends) and my g3 and my g3 seems allot faster, it seems to me that any system bus below 100MHz pulls a system down, anything above that wont make to much difference in anything but a g5

as for upgradeing doing it is so cheap, you can get a g4 zif for $80 from www.xlr8.com and a decent 120GB HD from new egg for $90, a pre flashed radeon 7000 usually about $45 on ebay. These upgrades are cheap and effective.

i'm not saying get every upgrade but suggesting them as options and to get what is right for him as even if he dose them all it will run the latest version of os x for a good while and will be much cheaper than a new mac but will serve fine for him

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 07:41 PM
i'm 15 and an apple technician i like to start young hehehe.

as for flashing video cards i have flashed countless 7000's one 9100 and i helped flash one 9800 for a friend as for electronic incompatibilitys what are you on about? are you talking about how agp 8x cards wont work with a 2x mac, because of the volatge difference? because they will if you tape some connectors to stop the card useing a voltage your mac dose not have and make it use a different one

Well for one we're talking about PCI slots in this case. Depending on the type of PCI connector it may not have the same voltage, but yes, for AGP slots there is a clear voltage distinction between 8x and 2x cards.

a difference between a 66MHz and a 100MHz bus is bigger than you think look at the g3 in question, you can upgrade it with a sonnet g4 1GHz zif and it downclocks the system bus to 66MHz and some b&w owners that upgraded from a 500MHz g4 card claimed it felt more like a downgrade there cpu xbench score went up but everything elce went down and the system felt slower for most tasks, you can see with your ibook how a slow system bus can drag it down, try to see if you can use a b&w tower to see how much faster it feels. as i have used a 500MHz ibook (my friends) and my g3 and my g3 seems allot faster, it seems to me that any system bus below 100MHz pulls a system down, anything above that wont make to much difference in anything but a g5

Did I mention my mom has a Pismo? Even at 400 mhz with a 100 mhz it lags. However the printing is significantly better. Unfortunately for most tasks, including web surfing, which my mom does regularly, she finds it to be painfully slow.

as for upgradeing doing it is so cheap, you can get a g4 zif for $80 from www.xlr8.com and a decent 120GB HD from new egg for $90, a pre flashed radeon 7000 usually about $45 on ebay. These upgrades are cheap and effective.

And like I said, thats $200 more... that's really not that cheap.

i'm not saying get every upgrade but suggesting them as options and to get what is right for him as even if he dose them all it will run the latest version of os x for a good while and will be much cheaper than a new mac but will serve fine for him

Yes, I agree it will be cheaper than a new Mac, but I don't think it will run the OS as well as you all might suggest.

Mord
Aug 24, 2004, 07:53 PM
Well for one we're talking about PCI slots in this case. Depending on the type of PCI connector it may not have the same voltage, but yes, for AGP slots there is a clear voltage distinction between 8x and 2x cards.



Did I mention my mom has a Pismo? Even at 400 mhz with a 100 mhz it lags. However the printing is significantly better. Unfortunately for most tasks, including web surfing, which my mom does regularly, she finds it to be painfully slow.



And like I said, thats $200 more... that's really not that cheap.



Yes, I agree it will be cheaper than a new Mac, but I don't think it will run the OS as well as you all might suggest.

a 400MHz pismo benchmarked faster than a 500MHz ibook i remember the scores from a mac mag the 400MHz pismo got 108 and the ibook got 90 and this is relative to a 350MHz imac which was given a score of 100, these figures are from memory so i could dig up the mag if you really wanted me to

stop comparing laptops with desktops the mobile gpu and the 2.5" HD make any notebook a much much slower for daily use, as for your mum get a faster HD in there and it will feel like a new mac seriously, get at least a cheap 40GB 5400rpm drive (assumeing your up for the take apart) or even a 7200rpm 60GB one if you have the cash though they are a little pricey.

as for the cost effectiveness of upgradeing old macs i have worked out a cost effective way of upgradeing a cube with a budget of 1000 and this would be between the speed of a single 1.8GH g5 and a dual 1.8GHz g5

Horrortaxi
Aug 24, 2004, 09:25 PM
And I'm qualified to tell you that there is a problem with Panther on those computers... and mine has 384 MB RAM!
I've already been in a fight with someone who loves to talk but doesn't listen worth crap once on this board this week, so I'm not eager to get into this with you. You and Hector can continue having fun. Just let me point out something: You discredited my opinion because it's only based on my observations but your opinion, which you so vehemently defend, is just based on your observations. That's too funny.

5300cs
Aug 24, 2004, 10:01 PM
Power Mac G3 350MHz
640 MB RAM

Is this gonna be enough to run panther?

Sorry if I missed this somewhere, but how much video memory does it have? I have a B&W G3 tower that runs Panther very well, and it's a G3 400 overclocked, but it still runs very well.

As for Tiger, there are numerous developer versions circulating on Bit Torrent these days unfortunately, but people DO have it. A look at the versions of OS X in the past up to Panther have shown that they run better and better on older hardware, so who knows if the G3 chip will run Tiger or not? My guess would be a definite yes.

And vraxtus if you read Hectors signature, it says he is dyslexic (even I can't spell it.) Way to go making fun of his spelling :rolleyes: why don't you trip an old lady on the way home while you're at it?

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 10:06 PM
You discredited my opinion because it's only based on my observations but your opinion, which you so vehemently defend, is just based on your observations. That's too funny.

Yet your own "observation" is merely that there are "no problems." Your lack of specifics IMO discredits your views, simply for the fact that you have no specific references to point out or prove that it does indeed run "well."

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 10:08 PM
a 400MHz pismo benchmarked faster than a 500MHz ibook i remember the scores from a mac mag the 400MHz pismo got 108 and the ibook got 90 and this is relative to a 350MHz imac which was given a score of 100, these figures are from memory so i could dig up the mag if you really wanted me to

stop comparing laptops with desktops the mobile gpu and the 2.5" HD make any notebook a much much slower for daily use, as for your mum get a faster HD in there and it will feel like a new mac seriously, get at least a cheap 40GB 5400rpm drive (assumeing your up for the take apart) or even a 7200rpm 60GB one if you have the cash though they are a little pricey.

as for the cost effectiveness of upgradeing old macs i have worked out a cost effective way of upgradeing a cube with a budget of 1000 and this would be between the speed of a single 1.8GH g5 and a dual 1.8GHz g5


I realize the difference... I've had desktops before.

However even as you've mentioned from the benches, the Pismo does score higher than the 350 B&W... and from the sheer standpoint of basic webpage loading, it takes the Pismo about 15 seconds to load the basic Hotmail frontpage. It's these kinds of specifics that I'm basing my observations upon. Horrortaxi can claim that "it runs fine" all he wants, but what is "fine" other than a subjective relativity?

vraxtus
Aug 24, 2004, 10:13 PM
And vraxtus if you read Hectors signature, it says he is dyslexic (even I can't spell it.) Way to go making fun of his spelling :rolleyes: why don't you trip an old lady on the way home while you're at it?



As for this, I thought his sig was a joke... much like the from the Simpsons when Ralph says, "me fail English, thats unpossible!"

So, my apologizes, I was ignorant to that fact.

Mord
Aug 25, 2004, 09:05 AM
I realize the difference... I've had desktops before.

However even as you've mentioned from the benches, the Pismo does score higher than the 350 B&W... and from the sheer standpoint of basic webpage loading, it takes the Pismo about 15 seconds to load the basic Hotmail frontpage. It's these kinds of specifics that I'm basing my observations upon. Horrortaxi can claim that "it runs fine" all he wants, but what is "fine" other than a subjective relativity?

it's a 350MHZ imac which has a 4200rpm HD a slower video card.

i'll make a film of me useing my g3 and loading pages on safari playing itunes booting up quake 3 and doing some photoshop work.

Rabidjade
Aug 25, 2004, 01:50 PM
how many PC users can say that XP Pro runs on their 1999 PC? You have to hand it to Apple that 10.3 runs useably well on a 1999 Mac. With RAM update.

XP runs perfectly on computers of the 550mhz P3 generation. Xp might run slow but isn't cornered by Microsoft to run on certain hardware only. Get your facts straight before dogging. I would go for the G3, I might be looking for an iMac myself to tinker with Panther.

mstecker
Aug 25, 2004, 02:56 PM
I'd buy that system in a heartbeat for $100. Email me and I'll close the deal asap.