When faith goes wrong.

[steve knight]

Ore. parents found guilty of neglecting ill son

OREGON CITY, Ore. (AP) - An Oregon couple was found guilty Tuesday of criminally negligent homicide for praying over their ill son instead of seeking medical help.

The jury returned the verdict on the second day of deliberations in the trial of Jeff and Marci Beagley, both members of the Followers of Christ Church in Oregon City. Church members gasped as Judge Steven Maurer read the verdicts.

The couple, who remain free on bail, is scheduled for sentencing on Feb. 18. Because neither has a prior conviction, state sentencing guidelines call for 16 to 18 months in prison.

Prosecutors said the Beagleys had a duty as parents to provide medical care for their 16-year-old son, Neil, who died in 2008 of complications from a urinary tract blockage. The defense argued the teenager had symptoms more like a cold or the flu.

The couple and other church members at the hearing declined to comment Tuesday. Wayne Mackeson, Jeff Beagley's attorney, said they would consider an appeal.

"It's never been a referendum on the church. This case involves parents who didn't understand how sick their child was," he said.

The Followers of Christ shuns conventional medicine in favor of faith healing. The church has been in Oregon City since early in the 20th century. Its members, by their own description and that of others, keep to themselves.

State authorities have found that an unusual number of children whose families belonged to the Followers of Christ had died at an early age, leading to a 1999 state law that eliminated faith healing as a defense in some manslaughter and criminal mistreatment cases.

The trial of the Beagleys was the second major faith healing trial in the state since the law was changed, although previous laws on criminally negligent homicide applied in their case.

Oregon is among several states that limit or do not allow faith or spiritual healing as a defense in some criminal charges for the death of a child. A Wisconsin couple accused of praying instead of seeking treatment for their diabetic 11-year-old daughter was sentenced to prison in a similar case there, and a Pennsylvania couple who prayed over their toddler was recently ordered to stand trial on manslaughter charges in his pneumonia death.

The Beagleys are the parents of Raylene Worthington, who along with her husband were acquitted of manslaughter last year in the March 2008 death of their 15-month-old daughter, Ava, from pneumonia and a blood infection. Her husband, Carl Brent Worthington, was convicted of misdemeanor criminal mistreatment.

The Beagleys were present at the death of their granddaughter, laying on hands after anointing her with oil and praying for her to be healed instead of seeking medical care that church members avoid.

Greg Horner, the chief deputy district attorney who also prosecuted the faith healing trial, argued that the Beagleys should have been alert to the potential for relatively mild symptoms to mask serious and even fatal disease after the death of their granddaughter.

Defense lawyers argued the Beagleys were acting reasonably and did not believe Neil was in danger of dying.

Attorney Wayne Mackeson told the jury that all of Neil Beagley's symptoms were "nonspecific," meaning they could have been a sign of any number of diseases, including a common cold or the flu.

District Attorney John Foote said his office would have no comment until after sentencing.

"The jury's verdicts of guilty are extremely important for this community," he said. "However, the cases are still not complete."

[Zombie Acorn]

Faith healing was an actual defense? wtf? Do we live in the middle ages still?

[leekohler]

Honestly, this should not stand. I don't see how people can be forced to use conventional health care. But I guess if it's a minor the law may see it differently than for an adult.

[Cave Man]

Faith healing was an actual defense? wtf? Do we live in the middle ages still?

They would have been acquitted in most of the US southern states.

[Zombie Acorn]

Honestly, this should not stand. I don't see how people can be forced to use conventional health care. But I guess if it's a minor the law may see it differently than for an adult.

Brainwashing kids into dieing should not be allowed. If you are 18 and want to die believing some ******** go ahead, thats one less person to reproduce and perpetuate the system.

[leekohler]

Brainwashing kids into dieing should not be allowed. If you are 18 and want to die believing some ******** go ahead, thats one less person to reproduce and perpetuate the system.

Yes, I think you're right.

[abijnk]

Honestly, this should not stand. I don't see how people can be forced to use conventional health care. But I guess if it's a minor the law may see it differently than for an adult.

As others have said, I'd agree with you if it wasn't a child.


We have no problem in this country letting adults die if they want to (in fact, we apparently don't have a problem letting them die when they don't want to). Kids are a different story. I'm glad these parents are being held accountable.

[steve knight]

this church caused a law to be made how sad is that?
why should parents be able to kill their children because they believe in something? that is a very dangers slope.
I have been reading about fundy wackiness.
quiverfull is one that's popping its head up. where woman open their womb to god and let him decide how many blessings they receive.
it can go farther where the woman is submissive to the man and her main job is to have children and raise a army for god. the only problem is that the man is supposed to stay ad home so the families are poor and home schooled and not allowed to get a real education.

it runs in the family since these peoples own children let their own daughter die. but they only got a slap on the wrist charge. these people are evil and htere is no other way around that. when you use your believes to kill your children even when you see first hand your believes do not work that is evil.

[nbs2]

From the info posted, I'm torn on this one. Normally, I would suggest that the parents were obligated to seek medical treatment for the child. When faith had reached its productive limits, medical help that is respectful of beliefs should have been welcomed.

But, there is something I wonder about this community. The article suggests that they have limited contact with "outsiders." If their relationship with the rest of the world is such that they shun the modern existence and adhere to early 20th century methodologies, I would not begrudge them their faith healing. Dragging other nations into our understanding of civilization hasn't gone so well, why should we expect it go over better here? Wouldn't it be better to be a beacon of good and let the people draw themselves to it?

[ucfgrad93]

Wow, this a difficult one. I believe in a person's religious freedom, however, those parents had an obligation to protect their child. However, it does make one wonder how far should religious freedom go?

[Eraserhead]

it runs in the family since these peoples own children let their own daughter die. but they only got a slap on the wrist charge. these people are evil and htere is no other way around that. when you use your believes to kill your children even when you see first hand your believes do not work that is evil.

Given this too, makes it much more difficult to side with the parents. To be honest though given the parents crazy religious views have allowed their child to die twice any remaining children need to be taken into care.

[Ttownbeast]

Stupidity cannot be outlawed as much as we'd like it to be. Laws punish for actions that have occurred, they prevent nothing from being committed.

[steve knight]

if people can do what they want because of their beliefs then killing could be condoned because someone believes it. we should have freedom of religion as long as it does not hurt others.
people will believe anything and sometimes they need to pay for that.

[mcrain]

Anyone else see the irony in this?

Very religious people who don't believe in evolution are killing themselves off. The smart survive, and the criminally religious don't.

[Surely]

From the info posted, I'm torn on this one. Normally, I would suggest that the parents were obligated to seek medical treatment for the child. When faith had reached its productive limits, medical help that is respectful of beliefs should have been welcomed.

But, there is something I wonder about this community. The article suggests that they have limited contact with "outsiders." If their relationship with the rest of the world is such that they shun the modern existence and adhere to early 20th century methodologies, I would not begrudge them their faith healing. Dragging other nations into our understanding of civilization hasn't gone so well, why should we expect it go over better here? Wouldn't it be better to be a beacon of good and let the people draw themselves to it?

They live in the United States and must adhere to state and federal law. It doesn't matter that they insulate themselves from the rest of the country/world. That doesn't give them the right to ignore laws.

They know about medical treatment, but they choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit into their religious beliefs. It's not like they have no idea what a doctor is.

This case is a perfect example of extremist religious fundamentalism right here in the US.

As others have said, if it was an adult who died because he/she refused medical treatment, that's their own business. When it comes to a child who doesn't have the ability to decide for him/herself, that is unacceptable.

They should go to prison longer than the state guidelines.

[Gelfin]

If you were to grant some Christian sects a pass on child endangerment laws on the basis of their belief in faith healing, you'd have to also be willing to grant Satanists a pass on murder laws on the basis of their belief in human sacrifice (which is admittedly hypothetical for purposes of this argument).

The state has an undeniable interest in protecting children from being victimized by neglectful parents whose actions can potentially or actually result in those children's deaths. The state on the other hand has no business exercising moral judgment over the rationale for the neglect. We criminalize the behavior. The belief motivating it is private and protected.

To excuse behavior from one citizen that would be criminal when performed by another, solely on the basis of a religious belief one holds and the other lacks, is the course that would violate the establishment clause.

[Cave Man]

If you were to grant some Christian sects a pass on child endangerment laws on the basis of their belief in faith healing...

They already do. Look at the vaccine exemptions.

[.Andy]

They already do. Look at the vaccine exemptions.
Which makes me realise we've not a thread about the long time coming and inevitable developments in the Wakefield case....

[Gelfin]

They already do. Look at the vaccine exemptions.

Those exemptions are in my view somewhat questionable, but less Constitutionally offensive in those states that include a nonspecific "philosophical" exemption, which is functionally equivalent to simply not making vaccination mandatory in the first place.

I am not sure how well some of those exemptions would survive a court challenge, but having established them it is difficult to argue who has standing to mount the challenge. An estranged spouse of a custodial parent who takes the exemption could manage it, but that sort of thing would tend to get resolved in family court without ever touching the Constitutional issue.

There are certainly cogent arguments on the other side, but my position is what it is.

[Eraserhead]

They already do. Look at the vaccine exemptions.

That's outrageous.

[StruckANerve]

Honestly, this should not stand. I don't see how people can be forced to use conventional health care. But I guess if it's a minor the law may see it differently than for an adult.

I agree, the Government has no place in this and it should respect the families religious beliefs.

[Cave Man]

I agree, the Government has no place in this and it should respect the families religious beliefs.

So, religion trumps life?

[Sydde]

I agree, the Government has no place in this and it should respect the families religious beliefs.

Well, my cousin and her husband are Satanists, and their priest has marked their 5 y/o son for ritual sacrifice. They are down with that because their religion comes first.

[NT1440]

Well, my cousin and her husband are Satanists, and their priest has marked their 5 y/o son for ritual sacrifice. They are down with that because their religion comes first.

I don't think that real satanism actually incorporates any of that crap, from what I've read.

[Rt&Dzine]

I don't think that real satanism actually incorporates any of that crap, from what I've read.

However, sacrificing children is in the Bible.

[Cave Man]

However, sacrificing children is in the Bible.

Not to mention the ownership of slaves.

[KingYaba]

So this kid can't piss and they thought he had the flu or a cold? Come on...

"This case involves parents who didn't understand how sick their child was," he said.
Isn't that why you go to a doctor? What a concept!

[Cave Man]

So this kid can't piss and they thought he had the flu or a cold? Come on...

Isn't that why you go to a doctor? What a concept!

Maybe that's why the fundies are against public health plans. Perhaps they don't know what doctors are for?

[Ttownbeast]

Ether it's religionists pushing a political agenda, or it's politicians pushing a religious one.

[CalBoy]

Dragging other nations into our understanding of civilization hasn't gone so well, why should we expect it go over better here?

Of all the things we have attempted to export to other civilizations, medicine has been one of the great success stories. Vaccines, sterilization, better methods of diagnosis, etc, have been gradually reducing mortality in most parts of the world. If there is one thing we have proven to work reasonably well for a vast array of ailments, it is the durably tested and thoroughly reasoned process of modern scientific medicine. Given that the preservation of innocent life has been a goal of virtually all civilizations past and present, this shouldn't be a difficult thing to incorporate (and by and large it hasn't been other nations' attitudes, but rather their wealth, that has stood in the way).

They live in the United States and must adhere to state and federal law. It doesn't matter that they insulate themselves from the rest of the country/world. That doesn't give them the right to ignore laws.

They know about medical treatment, but they choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit into their religious beliefs. It's not like they have no idea what a doctor is.

This case is a perfect example of extremist religious fundamentalism right here in the US.

As others have said, if it was an adult who died because he/she refused medical treatment, that's their own business. When it comes to a child who doesn't have the ability to decide for him/herself, that is unacceptable.

Which really makes one wonder: how do the Amish avoid such prosecution? Old Order Amish would not make use of modern medical facilities any more than this family, nor do they receive vaccinations. Are we simply employing a massive double standard when it comes to some beliefs?


To excuse behavior from one citizen that would be criminal when performed by another, solely on the basis of a religious belief one holds and the other lacks, is the course that would violate the establishment clause.

Which is what I think has been happening for a very long time with Old Order Amish. They are not a separate nation (unlike Native American tribes), and yet I'm fairly certain Amish parents aren't being prosecuted for manslaughter when Susie dies of diphtheria (or mumps, or measles, or polio or tetanus, or <insert easily cured disease here>).

[bobber205]

Obviously God didn't love this family or this child enough. ;)

[Ttownbeast]

Obviously God didn't love this family or this child enough. ;)

Is God supposed to give a ****? LOL

[steve knight]

someone told me they live right by the church and the cemetery is full of people who died early. people will believe anything. the quiverfull think god controls how many children woman has. so have unprotected sex and god will only give you as many children as he wants.

[Surely]

Obviously God didn't love this family or this child enough. ;)

Best quote of the thread.

[bruinsrme]

Obviously God didn't love this family or this child enough. ;)

If the child survived it would have been a miracle.
Since the child died it is a test of faith for the parents.

[Surely]

If the child survived it would have been a miracle.
Since the child died it is a test of faith for the parents.

Rationalizing blind faith is easy....

[bobber205]

Best quote of the thread.

Pray for land but row for shore.

[nbs2]

Which really makes one wonder: how do the Amish avoid such prosecution? Old Order Amish would not make use of modern medical facilities any more than this family, nor do they receive vaccinations. Are we simply employing a massive double standard when it comes to some beliefs?

Which was the heart of information behind my post. Living about 45 min from Lancaster Co, my view on "secluded" groups is colored by their relationship with PA, NY, OH, etc.

Forcing folks into the 21st century, or even the 20th, certainly seem to run contrary to the ideals of personal freedom and gets into the question of how far can the state go in regulating the raising of children. I would argue that zero tolerance policies go too far in interfering in what should be family matters, but zero involvement arguments don't allow for protection of children.

Not to drag the topic too far afield, but this makes me think about a family friend of ours. I wasn't there, and this is based on third or fourth-hand information, so make of it what you will. She went to the PO to drop off some mail. The (young) kids were in the back asleep. Rather than wake them, she left them strapped in their seats in the car and ran in. The car was locked, the day was cloudy, temperature in the 60s. In the minute or so that it took to run a package through the automated machine and come back out someone had called the cops and blocked her in. She faces conviction on a child neglect misdemeanor (fine/jail/no working with kids for a period of time). The question that is raised - does zero tolerance go so far as to trump common sense. Tying it back onto the topic, would this have been an issue if the kid had a cold and they prayed about that instead of giving him Tylenol or taking him to the doctor? Demanding that parents go directly to the doctor for any issue approaches a too-heavy government involvement zero tolerance policy; these parents getting their way would go too far into zero involvement by the government.

This is a nuanced issue that might be best resolved through education of these folks and case-by-case evaluations.

[eawmp1]

Is God supposed to give a ****? LOL

If there is a god, I doubt he/she micromanages.

[iShater]

Is it my imagination or we keep seeing this happen every other month now? :confused:

[djellison]

However, it does make one wonder how far should religious freedom go?

That's easy - the moment a person is inflicting unnecessary suffering, then the bounds of freedom have been breached and intervention must occur.

These parents killed their child. At best it's manslaughter (if one is naive enough to think they didn't know their child needed medical help) at worst it's murder (if one assumes they did know their child needed medical help)

Both are criminal activities and if one can intervene to prevent a crime occurring, then one should.

[steve knight]

the Amish and such have lived outside mainstream and the government for the most part can't really invade their lives. but to live with everyone else and just pick and choose what you want to believe and make others suffer is not something we can condone.
there are a lot of really wacky Fundy beliefs popping up and we should not cater to them because some nut job just thought of them.
we are starting to see reports of a lot of abuse sexual and physical from people that have escaped the Amish lifestyle.
people want to use faith to justify what hey do but can we use faith to justify murder sexual and physical abuse?

[Tomorrow]

They would have been acquitted in most of the US southern states.

Oh, really? I doubt that. Please refrain from speaking in hyperbole and make rational statements.

I believe in a person's religious freedom, however, those parents had an obligation to protect their child. However, it does make one wonder how far should religious freedom go?

Taken to an extreme, one could argue that "religious freedom" should make it legal to kill someone if you're a Satanist. But we don't allow that much religious freedom, nor should we.

[djellison]

the Amish and such have lived outside mainstream and the government for the most part

That doesn't give them the right to live outside the law.

Going back to the orig. story of the thread - just because they have religious belief, that doesn't hand them a right to neglect their child and actively avoid giving the child the medical care it required.

[nbs2]

we are starting to see reports of a lot of abuse sexual and physical from people that have escaped the Amish lifestyle.

citation?

[Rampant.A.I.]

I agree, the Government has no place in this and it should respect the families religious beliefs.

Not when a minor's life is involved. It is wrong to wait for Santa Claus to come save your child's life, when you know they could be recieving proper medical treatment elsewhere.

It's wrong to place the indulgence of religious people in magical thinking when lives are at stake.

You end up wondering if it's OK to stone my daughter to death if my religion tells me I'm morally obligated to after I find out she's having sex before marriage.

[CalBoy]

the Amish and such have lived outside mainstream and the government for the most part can't really invade their lives.

The length of time Old Order Amish haven't been integrated into American life is irrelevant. Their rejection of modern medicine comes from a religious belief, the same as the people in this story. There's no rational basis to elevate those Amish societies above everyone else.

[steve knight]

citation?

there are a lot of blogs and such of ex Amish who have left and report on what is going on.

[steve knight]

The length of time Old Order Amish haven't been integrated into American life is irrelevant. Their rejection of modern medicine comes from a religious belief, the same as the people in this story. There's no rational basis to elevate those Amish societies above everyone else.

I am saying what they do is ok I am saying people don't know whats is going on in the Amish communities. they don't call an ambulance when someone dies they don't bury the dead away from home. no one sees inside.

[nbs2]

there are a lot of blogs and such of ex Amish who have left and report on what is going on.

Anything from official authorities who would be investigating these types of allegations? You do realize that Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore have their own blogs as well.

[steve knight]

Anything from official authorities who would be investigating these types of allegations? You do realize that Rush Limbaugh and Michael Moore have their own blogs as well.

well I don't know I have not looked. I have only read people's experiences. from what I have seen the law pretty much ignores the Amish. I have heard people who reported them for puppy mills and such and the police will not do anything.
unless there is proof the police can't do anything. child abuse and sexual abuse is hard enough to do anything about in normal families. it would be almost impossible in a Amish community if no one reports it.