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arn
Jul 31, 2002, 05:50 PM
AllOSX (http://www.allosx.com/1028147667/index_html) points us to a PDF Presentation (http://www.opengl.org/developers/code/features/siggraph2002_bof/sg2002bof_apple.pdf) recently presented at SIGGRAPH 2002 by Peter Graffagnino, Apple's Director of Graphics and Imaging.

The slides describe how Quartz Extreme uses OpenGL and the desktop is simply a 3d scene. It also reiterates that only 16MB of video memory is required.

aaronvegh
Jul 31, 2002, 05:57 PM
Sweet Blessed Joy, if this is true!

I've been shopping around for a new video card to replace my RAGE 128...the options are ugly. If I can benefit with my current card, then I'm very happy!!!!

:D

Hemingray
Jul 31, 2002, 06:08 PM
Well fantastic, but that's 16MB of VRAM coming from AGP. So all us with PCI bus graphics still won't get this advantage, even though my Radeon 7000 has 32MB of RAM. Oh well... I'll upgrade my G4 when Apple gets their PowerMac act together.

G4scott
Jul 31, 2002, 06:10 PM
That's nice that it only requires 16mb of video memory, but how about us iBook users who bought our computers less than a year ago, and only have 8mb of video memory? I think we should get something from Apple...

Quartz Extreme is a big part of Jaguar, and is part of why it seems to run faster on most systems, because it takes the graphics processing load off of the CPU. I do hope it does something with my 8mb of video memory, instead of letting it go to waste, like it is right now...

Mr. Anderson
Jul 31, 2002, 06:11 PM
I have an original G4 Sawtooth, with a Rage128 Pro - 16 Meg VRAM - who'd a thought a 3 year old machine would be able to run Jaguar after all the scare stories.

It looks good and I think I'll be upgrading and even though I'll be ok with the current graphics card, can any one recommend a replacement - I do a lot of 3D and something with a little more umph would be great.

D

ericmw
Jul 31, 2002, 06:30 PM
Well how about http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/quartzextreme.html this for a little bit better conformation on what is needed? Look at the small print in the lower right corner.

Eric

SmashingYM
Jul 31, 2002, 06:30 PM
Too bad I have a year and a half old Powerbook G4 400 that won't be able to take advantage of it. I knew when it came out that 8MB would probably not be enough. It would be nice if I could use quartz extreme anyway, maybe just not run as smoothly. Anything is better than nothing. Hopefully Jaguar will be the performance boost on its own that its supposed to be. I'm pretty satisfyed with 10.1.5 anyway. It is too bad that a 1.5 year old pro machine won't be able to take advantage of it though.

MikeH
Jul 31, 2002, 06:32 PM
Can someone clear this up for me:

Will a 16mb PCI graphics card (such as the ATI Rage in the B&W G3's) show no improvements in performance with Jaguar at all?

OR

Will there be performance improvments, just less than those who have AGP graphics cards?

The thing is I can't see why PCI won't work, but AGP will if the graphic card specs are otherwise identical - surely it's down to the cards' chip.

arn
Jul 31, 2002, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by MikeH
Can someone clear this up for me:

The thing is I can't see why PCI won't work, but AGP will if the graphic card specs are otherwise identical - surely it's down to the cards' chip.

AGP required.

It's a faster bus and PCI won't provide enough speed for it.

arn

iH8Quark
Jul 31, 2002, 06:37 PM
The desktop is a 3D environment

If that's a hint of things to come, this OS is going to get very interesting. :D

EddieB
Jul 31, 2002, 06:39 PM
Well, looks like my TiBook667 is supported!! And that's always a good thing.
Also there is a typo in the article posted by macrumors:
The slides describe how Quartz Extreme uses OpenGL and the desktop is simply a 3d scene. It also reiterates that only 16MB if video memory is required.
The 'if' should be changed to 'of'.

Catfish_Man
Jul 31, 2002, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by arn


AGP required.

It's a faster bus and PCI won't provide enough speed for it.

arn ..it's because PCI graphics cards can't use main memory as texture memory and AGP cards can. The speed is just an added benefit of AGP.

To the person who was rejoicing that their 16MB RagePro can run QE: Sorry, it can't. Go look at Apple's QE page; only Radeons or higher are supported, no matter how much vram they have (there's several very good reasons for this).

None of this info is actually new, it's just not scattered all over the web like it was before.

AmbitiousLemon
Jul 31, 2002, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by ericmw
Well how about http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/quartzextreme.html this for a little bit better conformation on what is needed? Look at the small print in the lower right corner.

Eric

while you are looking at the link also note the bar graphs to the left of the note on QE compatability. even without QE 10.2 boasts approximately a 50% increase in speed over 10.1. Having installed 10.2 on machines not supported by QE i must say that the speed increase is very real and very significant. thats not to say it wouldnt be nice to have QE also speeding things up, but with old machines you should never expect a new os to have perfect compatability.

ShaolinMiddleFinger
Jul 31, 2002, 06:57 PM
So should I buy it for my iBook then? These things are confusing me now... I wonder if it's even worth it at this moment....

Gelfin
Jul 31, 2002, 06:58 PM
You know, I can't help but wonder if Quartz Extreme was what ultimately came out of trying to find a way to stop the irritating ghosting effect in Terminal with transparency enabled.

MacMaster
Jul 31, 2002, 07:02 PM
In the PDF it says that agp 2x required and agp 4x recommended. Only recommended? Does this hint to something like agp 8x? Just a thought...

Mr Jobs
Jul 31, 2002, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by MikeH
Can someone clear this up for me:

Will a 16mb PCI graphics card (such as the ATI Rage in the B&W G3's) show no improvements in performance with Jaguar at all?

OR

Will there be performance improvments, just less than those who have AGP graphics cards?

The thing is I can't see why PCI won't work, but AGP will if the graphic card specs are otherwise identical - surely it's down to the cards' chip.

alll systems will be faster with 10.2 only less then those with AGP (16MB Ti) 32MB graphics

cheek this link http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/quartzextreme.html
should help a lot, the

MacArtist
Jul 31, 2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by dukestreet
I have an original G4 Sawtooth, with a Rage128 Pro - 16 Meg VRAM...
...can any one recommend a replacement - I do a lot of 3D and something with a little more umph would be great.
D

The only upgrade, short of a new system, is a Radeon 7000. Do to the PCI interface, it still won't support Quartz Extreme, but it'll give you a signifigant performance boost for 3D.

sevag1
Jul 31, 2002, 07:40 PM
heh, desktop a 3d environment? So if i have like lets say 20 windows open at the same time, i will see an FPS decrease? LOL...

G4scott
Jul 31, 2002, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by ShaolinMiddleFinger
So should I buy it for my iBook then? These things are confusing me now... I wonder if it's even worth it at this moment....

Jaguar is much more than just Quartz Extreme. Although it'd be nice for QE to work on an iBook with 8mb VRAM, there are plenty of other features that will be useful.

ShaolinMiddleFinger
Jul 31, 2002, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by G4scott


Jaguar is much more than just Quartz Extreme. Although it'd be nice for QE to work on an iBook with 8mb VRAM, there are plenty of other features that will be useful.

I want to make sure if it will increase my speed....hopefully as fast as OS 9 was...

billiam0878
Jul 31, 2002, 08:44 PM
For those of you who are concerned about your 6-12 month old iBooks/PowerBooks, I am running an early seed of Jaguar on my 500MHz TiBook (with 8MB ATI), and you WILL notice a speed bump. Perhaps not as much as if you had a 16MB+ AGP card, but you will notice an appreciable difference.

Bill

nickgold
Jul 31, 2002, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by MacArtist


The only upgrade, short of a new system, is a Radeon 7000. Do to the PCI interface, it still won't support Quartz Extreme, but it'll give you a signifigant performance boost for 3D.

Not quite true... The Sawtooth was the first G4 to feature an AGP graphics bus (2x). I would hold out for the new Radeon 9000, or, if they fall in price, the Radeon 8500. The original AGP Radeon is still way too high in price, if you ask me. My Sawtooth 450 is waiting eagerly for a new video card (came with a Rage 128 AGP... Not even a Rage 128 Pro! Talk about Rev. A!)

topicolo
Jul 31, 2002, 08:50 PM
Oh sweet. I always suspected that Apple would treat windows as textured polygons. Hmmm... If I get a GF4 with nVidia's new drivers, would I be able to turn on 4x FSAA and get extreme hardware accelerated antialiasing? What would happen if I open so many windows that it floods the texture buffer? Would 10.2 then crash?

One really cool (but useless) thing Apple or some smart programmer could do is allow windows to be rotated in real time in the OS, since they're all just 3d polygons.:D Very cool...

Hemingray
Aug 1, 2002, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by nickgold


Not quite true... The Sawtooth was the first G4 to feature an AGP graphics bus (2x). I would hold out for the new Radeon 9000, or, if they fall in price, the Radeon 8500. The original AGP Radeon is still way too high in price, if you ask me. My Sawtooth 450 is waiting eagerly for a new video card (came with a Rage 128 AGP... Not even a Rage 128 Pro! Talk about Rev. A!)

I think MacArtist misread the original poster. Sawtooth is AGP, Yikes is PCI.

zarathustra
Aug 1, 2002, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by MacMaster
In the PDF it says that agp 2x required and agp 4x recommended. Only recommended? Does this hint to something like agp 8x? Just a thought...

:rolleyes: You speculative people! So when you buy software and it says it requires a G3, but recommends a G4 - you don't buy the software because the G5 must be around the corner? When a hardware spec is recommended that simply indicates the ideal environment at the moment of recommending a system. (What a sentence.).

etoiles
Aug 1, 2002, 10:07 AM
This is more of a general thought regarding the OpenGL thing... so QE will unload a lot of processing off the CPU by using the resources on the graphics card, what if I am working in a 3D app or playing a 3D game ? Will those tasks be slower because the card has to draw a big chunk of the UI as well (and has less video ram left)? Will I be able to use two cards and dedicate one to QE ?

mischief
Aug 1, 2002, 11:07 AM
The slideshow included a list of extensions used by QE to adress hardware by various companies and various parts of the Mac architecture:

GL_NV_**** = nVidia
GL_ATI_****= ATI
GL_SGI_****= Silicon Graphics Chipset?!?!?!?!:eek: :eek: :eek: :cool: :eek:


If I'm interpreting this correctly..... What does this mean?:eek:

bobartig
Aug 1, 2002, 11:10 AM
All you guys w/ 16 and 32 mb Rage 128 cards, CANNOT benefit from Quartz Extreme. QE requires a programmable GPU, such as a GF3, or Radeon7000/8500/9xxx. Any GeForce2MX, or Rage128, or Radeon v. 1 cards cannot do quartzextreme.

elensil
Aug 1, 2002, 12:36 PM
All you guys w/ 16 and 32 mb Rage 128 cards, CANNOT benefit from Quartz Extreme. QE requires a programmable GPU, such as a GF3, or Radeon7000/8500/9xxx. Any GeForce2MX, or Rage128, or Radeon v. 1 cards cannot do quartzextreme.

All iMacs (except for the new 17") are equipped with an ancient GeForce2MX card, if the previous post is correct that renders them unable to fully utilize QE:D :(

Also to all people with G3's and iBooks and PCI cards, you would not notice the same speed bump as those G4 users with PCI cards. Jaguar is AltiVec optimized and G3's do not have AltiVec:(

Oops

kobetsang
Aug 1, 2002, 12:50 PM
SOOOooo.... what is the better scenario for Jaguar?

1. G3 WITH 16mb Radeon?
2. G4 with 8mb videocard?

I currently am running a new ibook 700mhz. Will I notice HUGE speed increase? B/c for $130 I want HUGE!!!

Thanks in advance...

awrc
Aug 1, 2002, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by mischief
The slideshow included a list of extensions used by QE to adress hardware by various companies and various parts of the Mac architecture:

GL_NV_**** = nVidia
GL_ATI_****= ATI
GL_SGI_****= Silicon Graphics Chipset?!?!?!?!:eek: :eek: :eek: :cool: :eek:


If I'm interpreting this correctly..... What does this mean?:eek:

Doesn't mean anything, really, other than that it makes use of an OpenGL extension originally developed by SGI - I'm going to guess that said extension is implemented by one or other (or both) of nVidia and ATI also, hence it appears in the list. Similarly, I don't think there's anything preventing ATI from implementing GL_NV extensions, or vice versa, as long as the implementation actually works.

Catfish_Man
Aug 1, 2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by bobartig
All you guys w/ 16 and 32 mb Rage 128 cards, CANNOT benefit from Quartz Extreme. QE requires a programmable GPU, such as a GF3, or Radeon7000/8500/9xxx. Any GeForce2MX, or Rage128, or Radeon v. 1 cards cannot do quartzextreme.

Actually it requires non-power of 2 textures and some pixel formats older cards can't do. It will run on a GeForce2mx, it will run on a Radeon, it won't run on a Rage. Apple has already posted what it will run on, I don't see why this is so confusing.

Also, only the new iMacs come with a GeForce2mx or better. CRT iMacs are out of luck, as are all iBooks except for current and future ones (the current ones have a 16MB radeon mobility on an AGP2X slot. Minimum requirements, but it will run it).

To the person wondering about 3d performance while using QE (or QuartzGL as the people on arstechnica call it): It would only affect it if it was running in a window, most 3d games and such run full screen, so it isn't drawing the UI.

gropo
Aug 1, 2002, 01:15 PM
Perhaps the most profound new functionality of Quartz Extreme (according to the PowerPoint file on page 12) will be the ability for quartz-native elements to draw over Classic layers without Classic going all wiggety-whitey until Classic is given permission to refresh the QuickDraw on-screen. At least I hope so :P

gopher
Aug 1, 2002, 02:51 PM
You can get some even in 10.0 from XOptimize and Macjanitor,
extra RAM, extra free hard disk space, and partitioning so that the hard drive has less seek room (25 GB is about the maximum I've found as a good ballance on a 5400 RPM Flat Panel iMac drive).

More from updating to 10.1.
More from updating to Jaguar.
and even more from updating to Jaguar on an AGP machine.

For additional speed hints, places to download aforementioned software visit:

http://www.macmaps.com/Macosxspeed.html

Macmaniac
Aug 1, 2002, 04:38 PM
Does this mean my 700mhz snow iMac with 16mb graphics card will have quartz extreme? Please say its so!

Beigean
Aug 1, 2002, 08:30 PM
sorry Macmaniac, your iMac has a rage128 derivative, which doesn't benefit from QE

gopher
Aug 1, 2002, 09:09 PM
I just spoke to someone with a Blue and White G3 and Rage 128 running 6c106, and while Quartz Extreme per se isn't fully optimized he does say the speed increase is quite significant. I'll say this much Jaguar will mean a speed increase across all supported machines. The search from within the Finder really rocks.

Sun Baked
Aug 1, 2002, 09:44 PM
Interesting discussion on Quartz Extreme over at OSNews*.

www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=1464&limit=no

* They don't have a language filter turned on, if you are easily offended -- don't go there.

Solipsys
Aug 2, 2002, 03:09 AM
until today i just thought of QE as apple's solution to the poor performance of Quartz, but after viewing the presentation.pdf i'm really excited about the possibilities!

this isn't just about texture mapping quartz functions onto polygons, it's turning the whole GUI into a 3d environment. mapping textures to mimic the basic windowing system that we all know and love is only the beginning. now any 3d scene can be drawn on the desktop with it's own 3d environment and alpha blending. i think we're going to see a boatload of 3d interface widgets popping up over the next 6 months from 3rd party developers... and over the next few years apple will hopefully invent the next step in desktop GUI using a 3d paradigm... (i'm thinking something like william gibson's neuromancer).

i'm very excited! every graphics function being pumped through opengl means developers will flock to osx, especially game companies... apple is implementing a ton of low level opengl calls that will speed up any programmer's application.

awesome! now i just need to save up for a new comp that will support QE ;)

G4scott
Aug 2, 2002, 07:36 AM
You can have truly 3d icons. Imagine an icon that rotates, or that you can twist and turn...

What would be a cool hack, is to turn the object that the desktop is being textured on into a sphere, or some weird shape, and then have it move! Or even better, when a window is minimized, it morphs into a sphere, and the sphere bounces into the dock while getting smaller, and then un-wraps itself into the dock! I'm not sure if this is possible, but it would be cool.

topicolo
Aug 2, 2002, 08:55 AM
But isn't it true that OpenGL doesn't yet support programmable pixel shaders? Isn't that going to be a huge detraction?

sturm375
Aug 2, 2002, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon


while you are looking at the link also note the bar graphs to the left of the note on QE compatability. even without QE 10.2 boasts approximately a 50% increase in speed over 10.1. Having installed 10.2 on machines not supported by QE i must say that the speed increase is very real and very significant. thats not to say it wouldnt be nice to have QE also speeding things up, but with old machines you should never expect a new os to have perfect compatability.

I don't consider my less than year old TiPB 500 an old machine, and yet, it won't run QE:mad:

ShaolinMiddleFinger
Aug 2, 2002, 08:54 PM
Well, I just ordered 10.2 with the educational discount.... I called up my Apple reseller and he said it should be out in two weeks...

foniks2020
Aug 3, 2002, 04:26 AM
I'm running a build of 10.2 on both a 500mhz TiBook and a Sawtooth G4 350mhz.

The Sawtooth has a Radeon 8500 AGP in it.

QE works in the Sawtooth wonderfully and improves performance to an amazing degree.

My TiBook has increased performance and has vastly improved video playback among other things....

One of the first differences I saw between the two installations is in the 'Change Desktop at intervals' setting. On the Sawtooth the desktop pictures do a fade between them very much like the default screensaver fade. On the TiBook the pictures just switch... no fade.

From my personal experience so far I think that QE isn't really a single API or self contained set of functions. It appears to be a collection of functions that are either supported by the video card or they are not.

By this I mean that it looks like all of the window buffer is still going through the video card on my TiBook... but the pixel shading stuff and window alpha blend (bells and whistles) is being done on the CPU first and then being sent through it along with all the other PDF/Video/etc. data.

So the on-the-fly effects like the fading desktop pics mentioned only works on the newer video cards but the more standard windowing and graphics drawing is still getting a boost from the video card/GPU.

I don't know these things for sure but this is what i think from personal experience playing with the OS, and I'm only working with the 6c98 build.

(BTW Apple folks, i already ordered my copy of 10.2 so don't bite my head off for doing some beta testing.)

p.s. my Sawtooth will soon be getting a 1 Ghz upgrade card... ;-p God willing, it will work with my poor 3.5 year old machine.

Solipsys
Aug 3, 2002, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by G4scott
You can have truly 3d icons. Imagine an icon that rotates, or that you can twist and turn...

What would be a cool hack, is to turn the object that the desktop is being textured on into a sphere, or some weird shape, and then have it move! Or even better, when a window is minimized, it morphs into a sphere, and the sphere bounces into the dock while getting smaller, and then un-wraps itself into the dock! I'm not sure if this is possible, but it would be cool.

if you look through the presentation there's one screen that shows two 3d objects just floating around the desktop. i think we're going to see a lot of small utility apps coming out that have simple 3d interfaces (with no traditional windows) in the few months after 10.2 comes out.

jg3
Aug 3, 2002, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Solipsys

i think we're going to see a lot of small utility apps coming out that have simple 3d interfaces (with no traditional windows) in the few months after 10.2 comes out.

I think this is already possible, and I was trying to do it a while back, but I know very little about OpenGL and programmatic image manipulation etc., so I never got it to work. The plan was to render my object in an off-screen buffer, then mask out the stuff I didn't want (the rectangle around the object), and display the cut-out result as my window. With any luck, QE-related APIs will remove the need for all these acrobatics - it would be _very_ cool.