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usw
Feb 12, 2010, 08:37 AM
I've spent almost a week with it, and having now swapped it for a mbp is a huge relief...really...

-battery life is a joke.
-the restrictive screen tilt angle and really badly placed air vents make finding the right position extremely difficult out of desk use.
-the hinges seem like they can break anytime, and contribute to an overall flimsy feel.
-web browsing, average office work are ok, but more intensive operations (like a few floating-point computations) will cause overheat, turn on those high pitched/loud vents almost instantly, and occasionally lag its responsiveness...
-occasional graphical issues with large text files in Drscheme, scrolling getting *mad* for 1 minute or so...
-the speaker is mono, but they sourced it very carefully with the word "trash" in mind...
-the screen is ok, but slightly uneven, with a limited viewing angle.
-it's light indeed, and its keyboard feels great...but I could say the same about the mbp, except it's a great computer, with an ugly black bezel ;-)

How can Apple have so badly engineered and then commercialized this thing is beyond my rational abilities...



GoCubsGo
Feb 12, 2010, 08:56 AM
If you do possess rational abilities then surely you're capable of understanding that your machine may very well have been faulty.

At that outset note that I owned the second revision HDD model of the Air. I found it to be suitable for your standard pre-installed applications with the exception of iMovie, iDvd, Garage Band, and iWeb. Mostly because I own a desktop machine that is better suited for such applications and I did not feel it necessary to use the Air for such antics.

I note that Adobe Photoshop Elements worked very well as well as a few other applications in their "lite" revisions.

Your statement regarding the hinges is indeed close to factual. The hinges on my Air were tight and gave way to play over the course of a year. However, they did not give way enough to warrant a repair of a highly documented defect of the machine. (search this site for further information). Your statement regarding the battery is also relatively true and I echo your opinion that the battery life on an ultra-portable machine should last longer than 4-5 hours.

I note that your opinion of the maximum tilt angle is subjective to you and your use. It was good for me but YMMV. Your assessment of the screen is again subjective. The MBAir is one of the best screens I've had on an Apple notebook, even, crisp, and had good viewing angle. Then again, I did not sit on the couch with the machine over on a chair at 180º. That is just me. On the note of the screen you mention GPU. The GPU is the better GPU of the Air line but it is not intended to be this amazing workhorse. Again, YMMV because what you do or did is likely not what I do. For me, iTunes, web work, browsing, e-mail, chat, Photoshop elements, Netflix and Hulu streaming all worked for me.

You continue to note that the vents (fans) were loud, they were no more audible than most Apple notebooks I have used that managed to hit 6000 rpm. I would often hit that fan speed when I was watching a movie or viewing Netflix or Hulu streaming web content. This is simply the consequence of small space big job. Is it is a flaw? I did not see it as that. I see fans not coming on as a flaw.

I agree that the placement of the vents did not afford users to sit on the couch with the machine on their lap or in bed with a pillow, though I did use the machine roughly 90% of the time just like that. I commend you for saying the vents are badly placed but not offering suggestions on where they could be placed. At this point I would ask that you tell me where you think they'd go.

While you feel cheated and mislead I feel the Air is a decent machine needing a memory upgrade, seriously. I would often max the memory out but easily fixed by a reboot. I will say that even maxing the memory out I did not encounter these frustrating problems that you had.

In short, you have sold or returned the machine and bought what you wanted. That is great for you. I hope the MBP serves you better. Your opinions of the machine are opinions, likely shared by some but not all but I still wonder if your machine was not defective.

MacModMachine
Feb 12, 2010, 09:12 AM
I've spent almost a week with it, and having now swapped it for a mbp is a huge relief...really...

-battery life is a joke.
-the restrictive screen tilt angle and really badly placed air vents make finding the right position extremely difficult out of desk use.
-the hinges seem like they can break anytime, and contribute to an overall flimsy feel.
-web browsing, average office work are ok, but more intensive operations (like a few floating-point computations) will cause overheat, turn on those high pitched/loud vents almost instantly, and occasionally lag its responsiveness...
-occasional graphical issues with large text files in Drscheme, scrolling getting *mad* for 1 minute or so...
-the speaker is mono, but they sourced it very carefully with the word "trash" in mind...
-the screen is ok, but slightly uneven, with a limited viewing angle.
-it's light indeed, and its keyboard feels great...but I could say the same about the mbp, except it's a great computer, with an ugly black bezel ;-)

How can Apple have so badly engineered and then commercialized this thing is beyond my rational abilities...

take it back and buy a dell....come back in 6 months and tell me your experience.

PsyD4Me
Feb 12, 2010, 09:19 AM
I've spent almost a week with it, and having now swapped it for a mbp is a huge relief...really...

-battery life is a joke.
-the restrictive screen tilt angle and really badly placed air vents make finding the right position extremely difficult out of desk use.
-the hinges seem like they can break anytime, and contribute to an overall flimsy feel.
-web browsing, average office work are ok, but more intensive operations (like a few floating-point computations) will cause overheat, turn on those high pitched/loud vents almost instantly, and occasionally lag its responsiveness...
-occasional graphical issues with large text files in Drscheme, scrolling getting *mad* for 1 minute or so...
-the speaker is mono, but they sourced it very carefully with the word "trash" in mind...
-the screen is ok, but slightly uneven, with a limited viewing angle.
-it's light indeed, and its keyboard feels great...but I could say the same about the mbp, except it's a great computer, with an ugly black bezel ;-)

How can Apple have so badly engineered and then commercialized this thing is beyond my rational abilities...

sounds like you already came into the MBA experience biased to the MBP.
Those who come in neutral end up loving this thing...
Currently I am using both and the MBA is a pleaure, especially with the Runcore SSD.

Scott6666
Feb 12, 2010, 09:44 AM
I've spent almost a week with it, and having now swapped it for a mbp is a huge relief...really...

How can Apple have so badly engineered and then commercialized this thing is beyond my rational abilities...

Sounds about right to me.

Dunno why they don't finally make a few design tweaks to fix this thing. I think there are just some mistakes in the design to make the Air fit some image of a computer they wanted to have. A real case where absolute adherence to form is killing substance.

I suspect they are not so far off from a real computer here but enough to make this product irrelevant.

halledise
Feb 12, 2010, 01:59 PM
take it back and buy a dell....come back in 6 months and tell me your experience.

heh heh heh - good call :D

nj-mac-user
Feb 12, 2010, 02:43 PM
I've spent almost a week with it, and having now swapped it for a mbp is a huge relief...really...

-battery life is a joke.
-the restrictive screen tilt angle and really badly placed air vents make finding the right position extremely difficult out of desk use.
-the hinges seem like they can break anytime, and contribute to an overall flimsy feel.
-web browsing, average office work are ok, but more intensive operations (like a few floating-point computations) will cause overheat, turn on those high pitched/loud vents almost instantly, and occasionally lag its responsiveness...
-occasional graphical issues with large text files in Drscheme, scrolling getting *mad* for 1 minute or so...
-the speaker is mono, but they sourced it very carefully with the word "trash" in mind...
-the screen is ok, but slightly uneven, with a limited viewing angle.
-it's light indeed, and its keyboard feels great...but I could say the same about the mbp, except it's a great computer, with an ugly black bezel ;-)

How can Apple have so badly engineered and then commercialized this thing is beyond my rational abilities...

Case and point the MBA just isn't for everyone... especially if you're going to compare it to a MBP.

Also, I'm pretty sure Apple engineers thought about how it's designed. It's easy for us to say "Well it's obvious the vent is placed in a bad location", etc., but we aren't engineers having to create a computer in such a thin form factor. I'm sure they tried several different ways with different things before the final version came about. And the hinges are not that bad. They're only bad if you're the kind of person that's rough with your machine.

Scott6666
Feb 12, 2010, 03:26 PM
Also, I'm pretty sure Apple engineers thought about how it's designed. It's easy for us to say "Well it's obvious the vent is placed in a bad location", etc., but we aren't engineers having to create a computer in such a thin form factor. I'm sure they tried several different ways with different things before the final version came about.

I'm sure they did - and it was quite innovative at launch.

HOWEVER, after almost 2 years in the field now with plenty of discussion of the issues, they haven't PROGRESSED the design really at all.

I don't think it would take too much to fix a lot of the complaints. But someone at Apple has to actually TRY! Maybe there is no future to the Air if there really isn't much progress here. Gotta wonder if any engineers are assigned to this project at all.

Or can nothing be done because Steve has dictated that they can't add a mm here or there to add a decent heatsink, another usb port, or space for larger drives?

Scottsdale
Feb 12, 2010, 05:46 PM
The MacBook Air is not a lightweight MacBook Pro. It was never intended to be and it's not marketed as such.

Features like 7-hour battery, are not feasible in a 3lb Mac that was focused on being lightweight and perform as powerful as a MacBook. The MBA is meant for those who don't need a professional grade computer for their daily workload. Will anyone here keep the same form factor and add another half pound to double the battery life? I will not. Three plus hours is more than enough for me; I can get four hours if I turn the display down. That's perfectly acceptable for an ultraportable.

I don't feel the MBA has badly placed vents, but I did alter how I work with the MBA to relieve the vents being placed underneath. I simply place a magazine under the MBA if it's on my lap or I place the underside of the MBA so not on my legs themselves and just corners touch my legs. Problem solved. Whether I am in bed, on the couch, or elsewhere, the MBA is far more portable and fun than the MBP. The MBP is far too heavy to be comfortable away from a desk anyways.

While some have had hinge problems being too flexible or breaking, it's not the norm of the product. I haven't had a single hinge problem, and I have used the MBA as my primary Mac basically since December 2008. The MBA focuses on being lightweight. A heavy lid to give it extra "support" would make the experience worse. It's all about providing MacBook powered experience at a 1.5 lb drop in weight.

I do some intensive stuff, and I have never had an overheating problem with my rev B/C v 2,1 MBAs. My original MBA overheated all the time. All it took was two minutes of basic video, and the MBA was done. The new MBA is NOT a MBP! It's not designed to do professional grade work in the sense of what's needed from a professional grade computer. It's not designed for intensive gaming. It's not designed for intensive graphics requirements. While it's not intended for "pro" like computing, it has the exact same GPU as the MBP running at 80% of the power/performance capabilities. That's a fair number given a 1.5 lb drop in weight and running within a tightly confined space at around .5" average thickness.

The speaker is extremely acceptable for an ultraportable. You are wrongly identifying the MBA as a MacBook Pro in Air form. It's NOT a PRO, this is an ultraportable NOTEBOOK performing EXTREMELY WELL in its ultraportable class. The MBA was the first ultraportable to provide notebook like experience/performance from an ultraportable sub-3lb computer. You need surround sound, leave your MBP at your desk and plug it into a Bose surround system.

The displays I have seen have had various line problems, but most of the problem there is solved with Gamma 2.2 over 1.8... which is the new standard in OS X 10.6. I agree, the MBA's display is not equivalent to the MacBook PRO... but then again this is NOT a PROfessional grade computer. It was never intended to be. At the same time, the display is far superior to the display that was found in the MacBook introduced at the same time. The original MBA had a gorgeous display. The newer MBA, when introduced in October 2008, has a display far superior than the aluminum MB introduced in October 2008. The viewing angle is definitely not the problem with the MBA's displays in my opinion. There is a problem, but it's due to reducing the power to the display thus sometime creating line artifacts on bright white backgrounds... rarely results in visual impairments during video playback. Even HD videos look and play perfect on the MBA. The MBA doesn't have the glass which means the display is far less glossy.

When Apple introduced the MBA it was lightyears ahead of the competition. In its first version, the MBA was a terrible performer not being able to cool within its confined space. In v 2,1, the MBA is incredibly capable. No matter what it doesn't have, it's an incredible technology in such a well designed computer that is an amazing ultraportable. It's not an amazing "PRO" notebook because it's not a pro notebook nor is it even a notebook.

Apple has let the competition catch up, and many competitors have ultraportables that are more powerful, with better hinges, thinner, have longer battery life, have more RAM, have better speakers, and etc... but the MBA is still extremely relevant and capable among ultraportables. Because the MBA still beats the competition when considering all capabilities. Some ultraportables weigh less, but they're not more powerful too. Some ultraportables have a better CPU or graphics (some of the PC ultraportables actually have more capable graphics than the MBP), but they aren't as lightweight as the MBA. When considering the complete MBA in its current form, it still competes extremely well versus other ultraportables. We don't know what Apple has in store for the MBA next, but I am sure it will continue to be better at being an ultraportable than the MacBook Pro is at being a professional grade computer.

On the other hand, the MacBook Pro is a joke. It has a Core 2 Duo CPU while all of the competitors have Core i5 and Core i7 CPUs. Competitors have had four cores when the MBP had two. While the MBP has a 9400m GPU, all of the competitors have dedicated graphics cards with their own up to 1 GB of dedicated memory. While the MBP in 15" and 17" versions have the 9600GT available, it's a rebranded 8600 which is nearly four years old! And with the dedicated graphics come less RAM than competitors. While competitors have autoswitching graphics on the fly, the MBP is stuck between reboots. While the MBP looks pretty, it's simply not a professional grade computer. We can go on and on about the MBP if we want. And in the 13" version, the MBP fares even worse... While the MBP has some nice features, it's a joke compared to its competition. About the last thing I would call the MacBook Pro is "Professional-grade."

So while you compare the MacBook Air to the MacBook Pro, the rest of the world compares the MacBook Air to other ultraportables on the market and perhaps the MacBook. While the MBA is still relevant in the ultraportable market, the MBP (especially in its 13" form) is completely irrelevant.

Why not go post your thread in the MBP section? You decide to be a troll and post it in the MBA section here at Mac Rumors. What's your point? That you cannot understand the fact that the MBA was never meant to compete with the MBP? The MacBook Air is a MacBook in Air form. The MacBook Pro is a MacBook that has a few extra features but is definitely not a "Pro."

Go play with your MacBook "Pro-less," because you certainly don't need a professional grade computer if you proclaim you use a "MacBook Pro." While Apple engineered the MBA to be revolutionary, it surely succeeded in providing a computer ahead of the competition. Whereas Apple engineered the MBP to sell to the suckers who will pay for a computer stamped "Pro" when even they understand there is nothing "professional" about the MacBook Pro. You have FireWire, and a seven-hour battery and that's a "Pro" computer in your book? Wow! They sure have you fooled!

potdude
Feb 13, 2010, 12:53 AM
OK great thanks for your review. You could have researched these things before you decided to buy one, but you did not and thus your review.

Personally I bought a 13" MBP before deciding to buy the MBA as a secondary machine, which is a purpose it serves extremely well.

Yes, the MBA is not as good a a MBP in terms of power or audio, but it is far better in terms or portability, and way better than any netbook could ever be.

Owning a MBP and a MBA is the best of both worlds, and it's your loss that you can only have one, as they are both great machines each in their own ways.

archipellago
Feb 13, 2010, 03:41 AM
I've spent almost a week with it, and having now swapped it for a mbp is a huge relief...really...

-battery life is a joke.
-the restrictive screen tilt angle and really badly placed air vents make finding the right position extremely difficult out of desk use.
-the hinges seem like they can break anytime, and contribute to an overall flimsy feel.
-web browsing, average office work are ok, but more intensive operations (like a few floating-point computations) will cause overheat, turn on those high pitched/loud vents almost instantly, and occasionally lag its responsiveness...
-occasional graphical issues with large text files in Drscheme, scrolling getting *mad* for 1 minute or so...
-the speaker is mono, but they sourced it very carefully with the word "trash" in mind...
-the screen is ok, but slightly uneven, with a limited viewing angle.
-it's light indeed, and its keyboard feels great...but I could say the same about the mbp, except it's a great computer, with an ugly black bezel ;-)

How can Apple have so badly engineered and then commercialized this thing is beyond my rational abilities...


you could be describing any one of a multitude of Apple products..

archipellago
Feb 13, 2010, 03:42 AM
take it back and buy a dell....come back in 6 months and tell me your experience.

you forgot to tell him what to do with the $1k spare he'd have left over..??

nutritious
Feb 13, 2010, 03:58 AM
My sister owns a 13" MBA, and i've found it to be very sturdy and well built. It's also pretty feels speedy for the average consumer because of the SSD.

aussie.damo
Feb 13, 2010, 04:17 AM
take it back and buy a dell....come back in 6 months and tell me your experience.

I did get a Dell - I have one for work and it's pretty darn awesome. It has an LED backlit screen, backlit keyboard, DVD-RW, 8GB RAM, built in 3G modem, expresscard/34, smart card reader, SD card reader, eSata port, 2xUSB and only weighs 1.6kg.

I realise that specs aren't everything and the Dell is certainly thicker than the MBA. But not so much that it's a bother, and the weight is very close. I also have a long life battery that gives me 7+ hours. It's a great laptop and whilst I prefer OS X, Windows 7 is an excellent OS.

Apple needs to fix the MBA. It was stunning when first released, so much so that I bought one. It was a Rev A, but despite all the flaws people criticise it for, I loved it. I sold it at the end of last year and I'm glad I did. The lack of connectivity and power is inexcusable, especially in light of the competition. 1.36kgs is not an excuse to be underpowered anymore.

The Dell I have packs all the power of an MBP, but weighs much less. If Dell can do it, Apple can do better. And when they do, I will buy one. But if they just bump the memory and processor, and leave that ridiculous bezel and flip down USB, forget it.

Damo

potdude
Feb 13, 2010, 04:24 AM
Congratulations that you're satisfied with owning a Dell and using a Microsoft OS in Windows 7. While this may not be the case for you, some of us are sick of Microsoft products, as I personally have to use them all day long at work where their software crashes all the time, but when I come home it's great to be able to use a stable and reliable OS in Mac OS X, and not some Windows OS that is copycat crap of Mac OS X.

I'd much rather pay a premium to have a stable Mac system with OS X than a Windows based system any day, regardless of how in-expensive the Windows based machine may be as you get what you pay for and if you buy a machine with a crappy Microsoft copycat OS, you are stuck with nothing but a crappy copycat machine that may have saved you a bit of money, but it's still not as good as a Mac.

I did get a Dell..I realise that specs aren't everything and the Dell is certainly thicker than the MBA. But not so much that it's a bother, and the weight is very close.
Damo

aussie.damo
Feb 13, 2010, 04:35 AM
Congratulations that you're satisfied with owning a Dell and using a Microsoft OS in Windows 7. While this may not be the case for you, some of us are sick of Microsoft products, as I personally have to use them all day long at work where their software crashes all the time, but when I come home it's great to be able to use a stable and reliable OS in Mac OS X, and not some Windows OS that is copycat crap of Mac OS X.

I have certainly had issues Microsoft products, especially with Vista which was a pile of cr@p. Windows 7 is much nicer. I consider it to be just as stable as OS X which I also use extensively.

LOL at copycat cr@p. Everyone copies, who really cares? Isn't it really about getting the right tool for the job?

Anyway, back on topic - I'd happily lay out the $$ for a new MBA, so long as the next version is as cutting edge as the original. Fingers crossed.

Damo

usw
Feb 13, 2010, 05:42 AM
Jessica, I don't think the mba I got was faulty : issues with scrolling thru large code files in Drscheme are inherent to the program, but even my small G4 ibook handled this better (which excludes the underspecified ram argument)...Performance wise and for my specific use, the mba was very close to my 2.4 ghz imac (more than enough for me, but I consider its functional/design ratio as flawed, silly and contradictory, which is totally subjective, just like anything down there...).

I was not initially biased toward the mbp (computers are just tools, and I tend to find Apple's marketing a bit vulgar...), I needed a reliable, reasonably powerful, easy to carry around, main computer, and leaving the unix based architecture hasn't been an option for me for the last ten years (neither is the knowledge/time/energy one has to spend in order to set up a good linux system, yet...), that's all.

MacModMachine
Feb 13, 2010, 07:56 AM
you forgot to tell him what to do with the $1k spare he'd have left over..??

keep it for the repairs when you call customer service and cannot understand them because there outsourced to india.

or when dell decides not to honor there warranty because they dont feel like it.

yea....i can keep going.

MacModMachine
Feb 13, 2010, 08:15 AM
I did get a Dell - I have one for work and it's pretty darn awesome. It has an LED backlit screen, backlit keyboard, DVD-RW, 8GB RAM, built in 3G modem, expresscard/34, smart card reader, SD card reader, eSata port, 2xUSB and only weighs 1.6kg.

I realise that specs aren't everything and the Dell is certainly thicker than the MBA. But not so much that it's a bother, and the weight is very close. I also have a long life battery that gives me 7+ hours. It's a great laptop and whilst I prefer OS X, Windows 7 is an excellent OS.

Apple needs to fix the MBA. It was stunning when first released, so much so that I bought one. It was a Rev A, but despite all the flaws people criticise it for, I loved it. I sold it at the end of last year and I'm glad I did. The lack of connectivity and power is inexcusable, especially in light of the competition. 1.36kgs is not an excuse to be underpowered anymore.

The Dell I have packs all the power of an MBP, but weighs much less. If Dell can do it, Apple can do better. And when they do, I will buy one. But if they just bump the memory and processor, and leave that ridiculous bezel and flip down USB, forget it.

Damo

i bet it does...

i suppose your talking about the V13 ? or adamo?

those are not even close to as fast as the MBA, my company has several V13's....there trash.

They DO NOT have 7 hour battery life....4.5 if your lucky.

rgrwatson85
Feb 13, 2010, 08:18 AM
yea....i can keep going.

You won't do it...:D

jamesryanbell
Feb 13, 2010, 12:02 PM
On the other hand, the MacBook Pro is a joke.

Go play with your MacBook "Pro-less". Whereas Apple engineered the MBP to sell to the suckers who will pay for a computer stamped "Pro" when even they understand there is nothing "professional" about the MacBook Pro. You have FireWire, and a seven-hour battery and that's a "Pro" computer in your book? Wow! They sure have you fooled!

You're calling someone else out for trolling when you're posting stuff like this in response?

The high road is to call out a troll while NOT trolling yourself. Kind of invalidates the call out in my opinion.

dukebound85
Feb 13, 2010, 12:06 PM
keep it for the repairs when you call customer service and cannot understand them because there outsourced to india.

or when dell decides not to honor there warranty because they dont feel like it.

yea....i can keep going.

no you really cant

MacModMachine
Feb 13, 2010, 01:17 PM
no you really cant

Oh i cant?

how about dell screwing people in the 8000 series video card fiasco.

how about dell financial services who directly LIES about there interest rates and deliberately screws people out of money.

or how about there battery issues? or adapter issues?

how 75% of there adapters never last a year?

http://en.community.dell.com/forums/t/19319999.aspx

how about how they make the adapter so third party manaf. cannot duplicate it.

dukebound85
Feb 13, 2010, 01:28 PM
Oh i cant?

how about dell screwing people in the 8000 series video card fiasco.

apple had this same problem and more be it yellow screens, iphone cracks, bad laptop displays, the RSDS with early mb's...you know just off the top of my head

how about dell financial services who directly LIES about there interest rates and deliberately screws people out of money.

need to supply links of this illegal activity

or how about there battery issues? or adapter issues?
like apple's swollen battery issues? even i had that experience with my mb:cool:

how 75% of there adapters never last a year?

need to provide a link other than a forum thread. i can dig those up concerning apple products as well.



how about how they make the adapter so third party manaf. cannot duplicate it.

like how i can go buy a 3rd party magsafe power adapter? ohh....i cant

you need to do better than simply try to formulate your opinions as fact

MacModMachine
Feb 13, 2010, 01:32 PM
apple had this same problem and more be it yellow screens, iphone cracks, bad laptop displays, the RSDS with early mb's...you know just off the top of my head


need to supply links of this illegal activity

like apple's swollen battery issues? even i had that experience with my mb:cool:


need to provide a link other than a forum thread. i can dig those up concerning apple products as well.



like how i can go buy a 3rd party magsafe power adapter? ohh....i cant

you need to do better than simply try to formulate your opinions as fact



you can buy tons of aftermarket magsafe adapters, maybe you just have never looked or do not want to bother.

dell cheating customers

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/57410.html

i dont care if you can provide links about apple...there small scale.

dell problems are LARGE scale.

swelling batteries is nothing compared to one catching fire and burning a table to the ground.....a dell laptop....

MacModMachine
Feb 13, 2010, 01:34 PM
http://www.laptop-junction.com/toast/content/dell-ac-power-adapter-not-recognized

there is another link

so you can make up some reason why these are invalid......


your the one pushing your opinion as fact.

Scott6666
Feb 13, 2010, 02:13 PM
What really makes me mad about the lack of progress on fixing the Air is that I would really like to have one. I just can't take the constant fan noise (more hard drive space would be nice too).

I keep hoping that they would revise and fix the darned thing so I can get one.

dukebound85
Feb 13, 2010, 02:56 PM
http://www.laptop-junction.com/toast/content/dell-ac-power-adapter-not-recognized

there is another link

so you can make up some reason why these are invalid......


your the one pushing your opinion as fact.

oh boy, how can i even expect to have a reasonable debate with someone who fails to recognize apple problems

and before you apply the "i am pushing my opinion as fact" card, you may want to read the thread where I have not done so. You sir, however seem to want to blow up any problems Dell has while minimizing apple's and then deduce dell is a nightmare to deal with.:rolleyes:

archipellago
Feb 13, 2010, 02:57 PM
oh boy, how can i even expect to have a reasonable debate with someone who fails to recognize apple problems

and before you apply the "i am pushing my opinion as fact" card, you may want to read the thread where I have not done so. You sir, however seem to want to blow up any problems Dell has while minimizing apple's and then deduce dell is a nightmare to deal with.:rolleyes:

I would also suspect that Dell sell many more machines than Apple do...

aussie.damo
Feb 13, 2010, 03:01 PM
i bet it does...

i suppose your talking about the V13 ? or adamo?

those are not even close to as fast as the MBA, my company has several V13's....there trash.

They DO NOT have 7 hour battery life....4.5 if your lucky.

I'm not talking about either of those, actually. I'm talking about the Latitude E4300.

MUCH faster than the MBA and IT DOES have 7 hours battery. Verified that on Friday when I was unplugged for a whole days work.

aussie.damo
Feb 13, 2010, 03:14 PM
Oh i cant?

how about dell screwing people in the 8000 series video card fiasco.

how about dell financial services who directly LIES about there interest rates and deliberately screws people out of money.

or how about there battery issues? or adapter issues?

how 75% of there adapters never last a year?

http://en.community.dell.com/forums/t/19319999.aspx

how about how they make the adapter so third party manaf. cannot duplicate it.

You really lose credibility when you claim ridiculous things like "75% of there (sic) adapters never last a year" We get that you don't like Dell - that's fine, this is an Apple forum after all - but wildly inaccurate assertions like are just silly.

Every manufacturer has issues. Should I believe that Apple can't make a screen because some 27" iMacs are having issues currently? Or perhaps because some classic Penryn MBPs had screen yellowing? Or because some Rev B MBAs had lines? No - I believe that, like all manufacturers, Apple has issues from time to time. Just like Dell.

The important thing is that we're all here because we like Apple products - we want them to be the best they can be. I hope the new MBA, if and when there is one, is the best!

Damo

MacModMachine
Feb 13, 2010, 04:57 PM
You really lose credibility when you claim ridiculous things like "75% of there (sic) adapters never last a year" We get that you don't like Dell - that's fine, this is an Apple forum after all - but wildly inaccurate assertions like are just silly.

Every manufacturer has issues. Should I believe that Apple can't make a screen because some 27" iMacs are having issues currently? Or perhaps because some classic Penryn MBPs had screen yellowing? Or because some Rev B MBAs had lines? No - I believe that, like all manufacturers, Apple has issues from time to time. Just like Dell.

The important thing is that we're all here because we like Apple products - we want them to be the best they can be. I hope the new MBA, if and when there is one, is the best!

Damo

actually...its more like 78% , and i am basing this on RETURNED adapters, all the adapters i have returned.

so i guess we agree to disagree,

duky
Feb 13, 2010, 05:05 PM
I think the main problem is the fact that you spent such a short amount of time with it. Of course I'm not trying to convince you that the MBA is the right computer for you -- it may not be, it isn't for everyone. Just like I've come to the realization that Macs are not necessarily the right computers for everyone out there. Nonetheless I can only share my experience. I went from a Blackbook to an iMac, then I bought a unibody MacBook as a secondary computer. After using the MacBook for a while, I sold it to upgrade to the MacBook Pro with better battery life etc; but instead, on a whim I decided to purchase the MBA and see what it was all about. My first few days with it were terrible mainly because the fans were on CONSTANTLY (never once had I heard the fans on my MacBook or iMac). It did not help either that the machine would then slow down and become unusable at times. Over time I realized that this was happening because I was attempting to use the MBA in the same positions as I used my MacBook (on my bed with the comforter, or in my lap with the vents covered) and this just won't work. As Scottsdale says, it soon became second nature for me to just position the laptop in ways that the vents wouldn't be covered and ever since I have rarely had the issues that bothered me (except for doing certain CPU intensive tasks --- mainly video chatting).

However some of your other issues are issues I've never had so perhaps jessica is right about you getting a dud. For example, the battery life issue I have never noticed. It is obviously not the purported 7-hr batt life of the new MBPs (nor is it advertised as such) but it is just as good as the unibody MacBook I had before it IMO.

Hinges have never been an issue for me, I know they seem to break more easily than the other laptops and my friend's hinge did break however I have never had a problem with mine and they don't feel flimsy to me.

Graphical issues I have never had.

I hate all laptop speakers hence I would never bother trying to use them or trying to rate them in any way. For example, the 27" iMac's speakers are much better than the MBPs but I still would never use those to listen to anything worthwhile. It's strictly headphones or external speakers for me.

"the screen is ok" - This is the best screen I've ever had so I'm not sure what this is about. Viewing angles are amazing and I like that it is not overly glassy like the MBPs or iMac (hence reflections don't bother me as much as they did with those two products). The one thing I dislike is that things seem a bit more washed out on my MBA than on my friend's MBP (the colors seem colder on the MBP which I like). But other than that, everyone always raves about how great the screen is on this thing so I'm not sure why you think it is just ok.

"it's light indeed [...] but I could say the same about the MBP" - I don't think you can even compare the weight of the MBA to the MBP so no, you couldn't say the same about the MBP.

I think it's fair that you had your own opinions about the product but the way in which you share them is "extremely deceptive". But some of the allegations you make are either false or limited to your one (possibly defective) experience. I think perhaps you could have come to the forum with 'food for thought' about how you had a negative experience (but again, limiting it to your experience and for your needs), or perhaps asking how someone could help with the issues you were having. But to come and say the product is badly engineered and deceptive and it is irrational that they sell any is a bit ridiculous. Had I read your comments prior to buying the MBA I may not have bought one, so I'm glad you weren't commenting on it back then!

I love the MBA and it is invaluable for my frequent trips but do look forward to potential future updates (hopefully to add more RAM!) and if they could have a different design with ports in a different position that would be great as long as it doesn't involve doing this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UJm1lSJKEM4/StQmOmpr7HI/AAAAAAAAB_U/H-sSFLKzZcs/Dell+Adamo+XPS+Side.jpg (yuck).

aussie.damo
Feb 13, 2010, 07:48 PM
actually...its more like 78% , and i am basing this on RETURNED adapters, all the adapters i have returned.

so i guess we agree to disagree,

Sounds like a reliable metric. Because you (claim to) have returned 78% of the adapters you bought, that means so has the rest of the world.

Well, I've never returned even 1, out of many Dell's that I've either owned or used through work. So I guess 100% work perfectly.

Damo

MacModMachine
Feb 13, 2010, 08:53 PM
Sounds like a reliable metric. Because you (claim to) have returned 78% of the adapters you bought, that means so has the rest of the world.

Well, I've never returned even 1, out of many Dell's that I've either owned or used through work. So I guess 100% work perfectly.

Damo

i have not returned anything, i should have worded that better, my customers have returned/ brought for service.

i dont own a dell, i just service them.

buddy1065
Feb 15, 2010, 05:21 AM
Apple needs to drop even more weight with the Air if they have no interior DVD drive. The Upcoming Sony Z weighs about the same and has DVD drive and so much more power at about 1" thickness and 13" screen. I'm not talking price; just saying it can be done. All aluminum casing should be re-thought is all I'm saying. I am considering a Z since I have a 15" MBP. At about 3 lbs the Z will be my new mobile laptop and the MBP will be my desktop replacement if the next version Air does not have hinge, memory improvements. I can wait and see what the next Air version has, though I definitely would not buy the present version.

Preview Z video clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQa24pMdXmM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEOd8hbYf0E&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W755bqf7v6s&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3gY9d9Xcy8&feature=channel

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644702499

Note: links to specs from above link can lead to specs of old Z at this time.

Scottsdale
Feb 15, 2010, 09:45 AM
I think the main problem is the fact that you spent such a short amount of time with it. Of course I'm not trying to convince you that the MBA is the right computer for you -- it may not be, it isn't for everyone. Just like I've come to the realization that Macs are not necessarily the right computers for everyone out there. Nonetheless I can only share my experience. I went from a Blackbook to an iMac, then I bought a unibody MacBook as a secondary computer. After using the MacBook for a while, I sold it to upgrade to the MacBook Pro with better battery life etc; but instead, on a whim I decided to purchase the MBA and see what it was all about. My first few days with it were terrible mainly because the fans were on CONSTANTLY (never once had I heard the fans on my MacBook or iMac). It did not help either that the machine would then slow down and become unusable at times. Over time I realized that this was happening because I was attempting to use the MBA in the same positions as I used my MacBook (on my bed with the comforter, or in my lap with the vents covered) and this just won't work. As Scottsdale says, it soon became second nature for me to just position the laptop in ways that the vents wouldn't be covered and ever since I have rarely had the issues that bothered me (except for doing certain CPU intensive tasks --- mainly video chatting).

However some of your other issues are issues I've never had so perhaps jessica is right about you getting a dud. For example, the battery life issue I have never noticed. It is obviously not the purported 7-hr batt life of the new MBPs (nor is it advertised as such) but it is just as good as the unibody MacBook I had before it IMO.

Hinges have never been an issue for me, I know they seem to break more easily than the other laptops and my friend's hinge did break however I have never had a problem with mine and they don't feel flimsy to me.

Graphical issues I have never had.

I hate all laptop speakers hence I would never bother trying to use them or trying to rate them in any way. For example, the 27" iMac's speakers are much better than the MBPs but I still would never use those to listen to anything worthwhile. It's strictly headphones or external speakers for me.

"the screen is ok" - This is the best screen I've ever had so I'm not sure what this is about. Viewing angles are amazing and I like that it is not overly glassy like the MBPs or iMac (hence reflections don't bother me as much as they did with those two products). The one thing I dislike is that things seem a bit more washed out on my MBA than on my friend's MBP (the colors seem colder on the MBP which I like). But other than that, everyone always raves about how great the screen is on this thing so I'm not sure why you think it is just ok.

"it's light indeed [...] but I could say the same about the MBP" - I don't think you can even compare the weight of the MBA to the MBP so no, you couldn't say the same about the MBP.

I think it's fair that you had your own opinions about the product but the way in which you share them is "extremely deceptive". But some of the allegations you make are either false or limited to your one (possibly defective) experience. I think perhaps you could have come to the forum with 'food for thought' about how you had a negative experience (but again, limiting it to your experience and for your needs), or perhaps asking how someone could help with the issues you were having. But to come and say the product is badly engineered and deceptive and it is irrational that they sell any is a bit ridiculous. Had I read your comments prior to buying the MBA I may not have bought one, so I'm glad you weren't commenting on it back then!

I love the MBA and it is invaluable for my frequent trips but do look forward to potential future updates (hopefully to add more RAM!) and if they could have a different design with ports in a different position that would be great as long as it doesn't involve doing this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UJm1lSJKEM4/StQmOmpr7HI/AAAAAAAAB_U/H-sSFLKzZcs/Dell+Adamo+XPS+Side.jpg (yuck).

Nice post...

Apple needs to drop even more weight with the Air if they have no interior DVD drive. The Upcoming Sony Z weighs about the same and has DVD drive and so much more power at about 1" thickness and 13" screen. I'm not talking price; just saying it can be done. All aluminum casing should be re-thought is all I'm saying. I am considering a Z since I have a 15" MBP. At about 3 lbs the Z will be my new mobile laptop and the MBP will be my desktop replacement if the next version Air does not have hinge, memory improvements. I can wait and see what the next Air version has, though I definitely would not buy the present version.

Preview Z video clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQa24pMdXmM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEOd8hbYf0E&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W755bqf7v6s&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3gY9d9Xcy8&feature=channel

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&categoryId=8198552921644702499

Note: links to specs from above link can lead to specs of old Z at this time.

I agree, the Sony Z is amazing as is the new X. I believe Sony really designs and produces excellent quality computers. The difference between Sony and Apple is that Sony not only focuses on design, it also uses new and upcoming technology components... while Apple focuses on design and using similar components across all devices. It seems Apple doesn't want to waste time writing drivers, or that it just likes buying in bulk? Windows 7 is really close to OS X now. I find reliability to be similar if not better on Windows 7.

Anyways, if Apple lets the MBA fall behind without relevant updates, I would consider a Sony X or Z series computer. Let's hope a new MBA will emerge with an Arrandale CPU, dedicated/hybrid graphics, and double/quadruple the RAM... add a glass trackpad and we're set.

buddy1065
Feb 16, 2010, 08:06 PM
By a lucky chance I happened to check a Notebook Review Sony thread which someone noticed the new Z signature Metal Mosaic model was available while all other models were still pre-ordered for March 17th.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=447505&page=223

I ordered my Metal Mosaic Signature series and apparently the supply ran out shortly afterward. So hopefully in 2 days mine will be home.:D

entatlrg
Feb 16, 2010, 09:13 PM
The new Sony Z is getting good reviews out there ... to each their own as they say ... we've had a few Z's in our office and I really disliked them, squatty screen, fan running loud and often, hot on the lap, just too much flash and not enough substance ...

Yes, they're spec'd out to the max, but day to day user experience is important too, and for that I prefer the Air or MBP by far ....

thejadedmonkey
Feb 16, 2010, 09:24 PM
take it back and buy a dell....come back in 6 months and tell me your experience.

I got a dell about 6 months ago, it works great - no hinge issues :p

What's your point?

Max(IT)
Feb 20, 2010, 04:58 AM
If you do possess rational abilities then surely you're capable of understanding that your machine may very well have been faulty.

At that outset note that I owned the second revision HDD model of the Air. I found it to be suitable for your standard pre-installed applications with the exception of iMovie, iDvd, Garage Band, and iWeb. Mostly because I own a desktop machine that is better suited for such applications and I did not feel it necessary to use the Air for such antics.

I note that Adobe Photoshop Elements worked very well as well as a few other applications in their "lite" revisions.

Your statement regarding the hinges is indeed close to factual. The hinges on my Air were tight and gave way to play over the course of a year. However, they did not give way enough to warrant a repair of a highly documented defect of the machine. (search this site for further information). Your statement regarding the battery is also relatively true and I echo your opinion that the battery life on an ultra-portable machine should last longer than 4-5 hours.

I note that your opinion of the maximum tilt angle is subjective to you and your use. It was good for me but YMMV. Your assessment of the screen is again subjective. The MBAir is one of the best screens I've had on an Apple notebook, even, crisp, and had good viewing angle. Then again, I did not sit on the couch with the machine over on a chair at 180º. That is just me. On the note of the screen you mention GPU. The GPU is the better GPU of the Air line but it is not intended to be this amazing workhorse. Again, YMMV because what you do or did is likely not what I do. For me, iTunes, web work, browsing, e-mail, chat, Photoshop elements, Netflix and Hulu streaming all worked for me.

You continue to note that the vents (fans) were loud, they were no more audible than most Apple notebooks I have used that managed to hit 6000 rpm. I would often hit that fan speed when I was watching a movie or viewing Netflix or Hulu streaming web content. This is simply the consequence of small space big job. Is it is a flaw? I did not see it as that. I see fans not coming on as a flaw.

I agree that the placement of the vents did not afford users to sit on the couch with the machine on their lap or in bed with a pillow, though I did use the machine roughly 90% of the time just like that. I commend you for saying the vents are badly placed but not offering suggestions on where they could be placed. At this point I would ask that you tell me where you think they'd go.

While you feel cheated and mislead I feel the Air is a decent machine needing a memory upgrade, seriously. I would often max the memory out but easily fixed by a reboot. I will say that even maxing the memory out I did not encounter these frustrating problems that you had.

In short, you have sold or returned the machine and bought what you wanted. That is great for you. I hope the MBP serves you better. Your opinions of the machine are opinions, likely shared by some but not all but I still wonder if your machine was not defective.
I absolutely agree with you, in every single point

take it back and buy a dell....come back in 6 months and tell me your experience.
I second that ;)
you could be describing any one of a multitude of Apple products..

keep fighting your personal war against Apple all over the forum, dude ?
They are still selling thousands ...

Max(IT)
Feb 20, 2010, 05:06 AM
OMG now we have plenty of Dell' s defender here ;)

we have over one hundred Dell' s computers in our department, notebooks and desktops, and I'm one of the IT admins: the simple fact of comparing a Dell with an Apple is, in MY EXPERIENCE, ridicolous.
And this without considering the operative system ...

steve31
Feb 22, 2010, 03:44 PM
I have owned both a rev A and a C MBA and while I loved them both, I was after a smaller more portable notebook. I sold my air and bought a 11 inch sony vaio tt with blueray. I still have a iMac and a MBP but I needed a smaller unit for travel. But the iPad would also fit my needs for a ultra notebook.

Max(IT)
Feb 23, 2010, 02:29 AM
I have owned both a rev A and a C MBA and while I loved them both, I was after a smaller more portable notebook. I sold my air and bought a 11 inch sony vaio tt with blueray. I still have a iMac and a MBP but I needed a smaller unit for travel. But the iPad would also fit my needs for a ultra notebook.

I don't mean to go off-topic, but at this time I'm not sure if an iPad could be a substitute for an ultra light notebook.
We'll see in the next future

Scottsdale
Feb 23, 2010, 03:11 PM
I don't mean to go off-topic, but at this time I'm not sure if an iPad could be a substitute for an ultra light notebook.
We'll see in the next future

Without the accepted standard of Flash, the iPad will be irrelevant for someone that wants the iPad to surf the Internet. So many sites use Flash, and people will be instantly frustrated as soon as they learn that they cannot look up so many things on the Internet because the iPad doesn't do Flash. I truly believe Apple has this one wrong.

I would add an iPad secondary to the MBA, but never as a replacement for the MBA. The iPad will be for fun where the MBA gets work done. I do a lot of writing, and I could never do that on an iPad. I need a keyboard to get my work done.

Max(IT)
Feb 23, 2010, 03:38 PM
Without the accepted standard of Flash, the iPad will be irrelevant for someone that wants the iPad to surf the Internet. So many sites use Flash, and people will be instantly frustrated as soon as they learn that they cannot look up so many things on the Internet because the iPad doesn't do Flash. I truly believe Apple has this one wrong.

I would add an iPad secondary to the MBA, but never as a replacement for the MBA. The iPad will be for fun where the MBA gets work done. I do a lot of writing, and I could never do that on an iPad. I need a keyboard to get my work done.

iPad it's not meant to be a substitute of the MBA on purpose ...

But I don't think Flash is the primary reason: I'm surfing the web on a daily basis for years using iPhone, iPod touch and my Macs with Click2Flash.
I don't really need Flash support.

Durious
Feb 23, 2010, 07:09 PM
iPad it's not meant to be a substitute of the MBA on purpose ...

But I don't think Flash is the primary reason: I'm surfing the web on a daily basis for years using iPhone, iPod touch and my Macs with Click2Flash.
I don't really need Flash support.

I'm leaning towards it being a replacement especially with 3G & a keyboard dock if needed. BUT I do have a machine at my desk that I do RDP through on my Air and there is a iPhone APP (Soon to be iPad app) that will let me do remote connections so I think I might be set! :)

iMac\iPad combo seems pretty good to me.

Max(IT)
Feb 24, 2010, 05:14 AM
I'm leaning towards it being a replacement especially with 3G & a keyboard dock if needed. BUT I do have a machine at my desk that I do RDP through on my Air and there is a iPhone APP (Soon to be iPad app) that will let me do remote connections so I think I might be set! :)

iMac\iPad combo seems pretty good to me.

I'm probably going to get one, but I don't know if it could be a substitute for a notebook/netbook or a totally different thing.

rcaqua
Mar 11, 2010, 04:03 PM
Thoroughly disagree with the OP. Just bought a refurbished 2.14 with 28 SSD, and it is doing exactly what it says on the tin, and more!

For those who are waiting for the next generation, the fact that such a development is nigh is bringing dosn the prices fo the current generation: got my MBA as described above for US$ 1250, shipping included...

Rene

duky
Mar 11, 2010, 04:07 PM
Just bought a refurbished 2.14 with 28 SSD, and it is doing exactly what it says on the tin, and more! [...] For those who are waiting for the next generation, the fact that such a development is nigh is bringing dosn the prices fo the current generation: got my MBA as described above for US$ 1250, shipping included...

2.14? 28 SSD? $1250? Did you write this message in a rush or something? What kind of MBA is this and where did you get it from. I'm assuming you mean the 2.13, 128GB SSD but Apple doesn't sell that one for 1250-where did you get this from?

Scottsdale
Mar 11, 2010, 04:33 PM
2.14? 28 SSD? $1250? Did you write this message in a rush or something? What kind of MBA is this and where did you get it from. I'm assuming you mean the 2.13, 128GB SSD but Apple doesn't sell that one for 1250-where did you get this from?

Come on, we know the poster missed the "3" by one keystroke on the 2.1(3) GHz, and we also know he didn't quite get his finger pushed down all the way on the "1" key for the (1)28 GB SSD. Are you sure you're not just giving the poster crap for not typing by touch and looking at the display for errors? LOL

Maybe the poster did get a bargain though! Where did someone buy a $1250 MBA? Maybe used from Craig's List? I am sure people are now selling their MBA's in hope for an update next Tuesday.

duky
Mar 11, 2010, 04:39 PM
Haha I was certainly nitpicking. But I am intrigued because the poster said "refurb" as opposed to "used" so I'm thinking they got it from some retailer. Are third party retailor refurbs covered by Apple? That will be a great deal if so..

Scottsdale
Mar 11, 2010, 06:00 PM
Haha I was certainly nitpicking. But I am intrigued because the poster said "refurb" as opposed to "used" so I'm thinking they got it from some retailer. Are third party retailor refurbs covered by Apple? That will be a great deal if so..

Sometimes places like MacMall sell their returned Macs via "refurbished" branding. I would bet it probably had been used and somehow needed replacing via a return. Probably swapped out and then repaired the broken component. I would think that Apple would prefer to just credit resellers (part of the costs) when items are returned and let them sell it for a discounted price.

What is probably more likely is that it was a display unit of some sort. Or maybe even one the staff or an executive used. With rumors of Mac updates on the horizon, NOW is the time to sell off current model everything that might be updated. It is especially true with regard to the MBA.

The MBA has been the most worthless "investment" or value-retaining Mac I can ever recall. The funny thing is I sold my original for almost exactly what I paid for it right before it was updated. My second MBA was stolen, so it was a no brainer to replace and total loss. I don't plan to ever sell my current MBA, and I believe that's the right attitude to take with the MBA.

The MBA is meant for those passionate about their computers that are more foolish with their money than wise... those willing to pay more for less... those willing to go the extra mile for the experience that is not necessary but desired. Buying a Mac is already a huge compromise, but buying an MBA is worse, maybe tenfold. I say this as an idiot who has bought three MBAs... only was the most recent a "fair" price for the value (in my opinion). I believe the best value for any MBA right now is the rev B 1.86 GHz w/128 GB SSD for $1349!

I hope the real rev "C" or v 3,1 MBA is the update that provides us with the ability to spend even more foolishly with little thought about the opportunity costs of blowing far more money than it's worth. I am talking all out BTO options up the yin-yang. I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to spend $5000 on a new MBA setup next Tuesday! I am talking...

Core i7-640LM $$$
8 GB RAM $$$
IPS HD Display $$$$
Nvidia 330 GT $$$
256 GB SSD $$$
Al. Capped Keyboard $$
8-hour Battery $$$
USB 3.0 $$
SD Card Reader hidden in port tray $$

Docking Station $$$
Blu Ray Drive $$$
36" LED ACD $$$

I would buy it all… now why doesn't Apple want our money? I guess it's that Apple wants us to spend our money on iPads… but they're only $499… oh, they want us to foolishly spend money on content we could get for free on the Internet with Flash!!! Sometimes I really wonder if Apple realizes what made it into the company it is today, Mac computers!

Everything I think about today turns into an MBA update, iPad, or the pain in the ass of the lack of Flash on the iPad. At least this thread is focused on the MBA, and how "deceptive" it really is, huh???