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Lord Blackadder
Feb 24, 2010, 04:00 PM
Negotiations for sale to a Chinese company have broken down, and GM now plans to wind down the brand (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/24/hummer-gm-sale-tengzhong-wind-down/). There's still a chance someone will jump in and grab them, of course.

As a car enthusiast, I have strong opinions about automobiles and my opinions are almost entirely negative when it comes to Hummer. The original Humvee actually makes the most sense, because it was really a heavy duty truck, and had the rugged cachet of being a real military vehicle. If that's what floats your boat.

But the H2 and H3 were always poseur SUVs that were just dolled up GM pickups (which are themselves credible off-road vehicles, but why not just get a Z71 2500HD then?). I'm not a big fan of SUVs but if you have to have one, a much better option would be a 4Runner at the low end or an LR4/RangeRover at the high end.

Nope, good riddance, the brand became an embarrassing parody of the original.

miles01110
Feb 24, 2010, 04:03 PM
I thought they already wound production down due to the high gas prices a year or two ago followed by the recession?

RaceTripper
Feb 24, 2010, 04:07 PM
Good riddance to it. Just yesterday some arrogant douche in a H2 decided to ride my ass because I wasn't moving fast enough for him, despite the fact I was boxed into my lane. Easily, 90% of the bad and dangerous driving I observe on the road are SUV drivers. :(

I guess stock for the chrome 27" wheel market will plummet. :rolleyes:

I guess the "Hummer Escape Pod" badge on my MINI is no longer relevant. :p

Lord Blackadder
Feb 24, 2010, 04:30 PM
I think the recession did hit them hard, but I'm not sure they were doing great even before that.

It is certain that they were a drain on GM's resources though.

juanm
Feb 24, 2010, 04:35 PM
The good news is two-fold: Hummer goes down, and you can still buy the original Humvee (through licencees, that is)

yorkshire
Feb 24, 2010, 04:36 PM
Much rather have a Range Rover. Preferably Overfinch.

Lord Blackadder
Feb 24, 2010, 04:42 PM
The good news is two-fold: Hummer goes down, and you can still buy the original Humvee (through licencees, that is)

Who makes the original Humvee for civilian sale (unless you're referring to the Chines copy)?

IF I had a lot of property out in the sticks, I'd love to have a military surpus, beater Humvee to bomb around in A pickup model with the fabric doors.

Much rather have a Range Rover. Preferably Overfinch.

Overfinches are sick money. I'd rather have an Aston plus a fully optioned out Tacoma for off-road work, and a new Fiat 500 with the leftover change...

iOrlando
Feb 24, 2010, 04:49 PM
do any of you own a hummer or ever even rode in a hummer H1, H2, or H3?

I am pretty familiar with the H3 and it is a great vehicle. I do know the H2 was way too big to be practical, but the size of the H3 for normal chores is great and its a much better value than the range rover. You can get a decently used hummer h3 for less than 25,000.

Lord Blackadder
Feb 24, 2010, 05:08 PM
I am pretty familiar with the H3 and it is a great vehicle. I do know the H2 was way too big to be practical, but the size of the H3 for normal chores is great and its a much better value than the range rover. You can get a decently used hummer h3 for less than 25,000.

I've only ever ridden in an original (H1), and an H2. The original, is, well, a big truck, and it rides like one. The H2 feels less less stiff but it's no easier to drive than the heavy-duty pickups it's based on. And ooooh, the styling. Fingers on a chalkboard for me.

For the money I think there are better options for either rossovers/softroaders or off-road trucks/SUVs. Hummers cost a premium for a certain "style", and many people find that style a bit vulgar and ostentatious.

strider42
Feb 24, 2010, 10:52 PM
Who makes the original Humvee for civilian sale (unless you're referring to the Chines copy)?


The original humvee is made by AM general. Gm just licensed the name hummer from them. Am general still made the H1 for gm, though the h2 and h3 were entirely GM creations. I don't know if Am general sells humvees to the public direct though ( end even if they do, they are ridiculously expensive)

ucfgrad93
Feb 24, 2010, 11:04 PM
Can't say that I'm sorry to see this happen.

IgnatiusTheKing
Feb 24, 2010, 11:14 PM
Hopefully all of Government Motors will go the way of the Hummer.

Lord Blackadder
Feb 24, 2010, 11:35 PM
The original humvee is made by AM general. Gm just licensed the name hummer from them. Am general still made the H1 for gm, though the h2 and h3 were entirely GM creations. I don't know if Am general sells humvees to the public direct though ( end even if they do, they are ridiculously expensive)

Civilian sales of the H1 ended a few years ago. As far as I'm aware, AM General only does military contracts these days.

During the last few years of production, I think the base price on an H1 was well over $100,000. :eek:

pooky
Feb 24, 2010, 11:55 PM
That brand can't disappear fast enough, as far as I'm concerned.

Of course, now the overcompensating, overwealthy, slimeball douchebag men will have to spend their money on something else... wah...

(Not saying all Hummer owners/drivers fit that bill, but those types certainly seem to be drawn to the brand...)

dejo
Feb 25, 2010, 12:00 AM
Oh no! What will Horatio and the rest of the CSI: Miami CSIs drive? :D

entatlrg
Feb 25, 2010, 12:15 AM
The H3 is a GREAT truck and the BEST on gas in it's class, ignorance is bliss, LOL.

It's a little 5 cylinder motor geared just right, enough power to pull a boat and for it's size and comparable SUV or Pick Up Truck counterparts it's great on gas.

So what's the problem with the H3. Jealousy, or the false stigma attached to it. Obviously it's there and even when the economy turned GM couldn't explain it's way out of it with there "Think it's a gas guzzler, think again" campaign.

When times are (perceived) to be good everyone is spending money, buying toys and into 'maximumism' as soon as the economy goes for a dumper then it's all about minimalism ... because no one has money of course then it can't be cool to have nice or excessive things, lol.

H3 is 5 cylinder better on gas than Toyota, Range Rover, Jeep, Pathfinder, Ford F150, Cadillac cars, some BMW's and more so what's the problem?

H2 yes, it's a tank of a vehicle VERY expensive to maintain and very poor on gas mileage ... $200.00 to fill the tank on one of those....

It's a shame to see the H3 go, preconceived notions, ignorance killed it, would of been better to see it go green/hybrid and GM could have touted it as the first drive big/drive green Hummer ... the technology is there, automakers won't show it ... they like us burning gas ....

m2c

leomac08
Feb 25, 2010, 12:29 AM
Someday 6000 pound vehicles and V-10 or V-12 engines will not exist.

The Hummer became a hit in the early 2000's.....but according to wikipedia....since 2003, Hummer sold some 30,000 Hummer's in 2003....then in 2009...Hummer sold only around 8,000.

TheBonk
Feb 25, 2010, 12:51 AM
Hallelujah! The last thing we need is MORE women driving a Hummer while putting on make-up.

Surely
Feb 25, 2010, 12:53 AM
But I like hummers..... no one tell the women!!


Ohhh...... Hummers.... nm......

obeygiant
Feb 25, 2010, 08:12 AM
Thats sad.. no more Hummers. :(

yg17
Feb 25, 2010, 08:16 AM
Good riddance.

niuniu
Feb 25, 2010, 08:22 AM
Too big and ungainly a thing for civilian road use. There really is no need for it, though that's coming from a UK PoV where we have a lot less space in general to manoeuvre around. Still wouldn't want one if I was in the US.

rdowns
Feb 25, 2010, 09:05 AM
Hopefully all of Government Motors will go the way of the Hummer.


Oh yeah, what's another couple of million unemployed? :rolleyes:

IgnatiusTheKing
Feb 25, 2010, 09:36 AM
Oh yeah, what's another couple of million unemployed? :rolleyes:

I'm sure their union will find a way to fix things for them.

quagmire
Feb 25, 2010, 10:23 AM
I'm sure their union will find a way to fix things for them.

How? Ford and Chrysler won't be able to absorb them and the foreign transplant plants are doing everything they can to keep their plants from unionizing. They have no where to go.

And explain this me. Why do you want to see GM go under so badly? Especially when their products are improving. Why do you want to see any company to go under? Wouldn't you hope that they improve instead? Competition is good. What did GM do to you personally that you want them to die? I don't wish Toyota and Honda to go under even though I doubt I will ever see myself buying cars from them. They are keeping Ford and GM on their toes and have to strive to be the best. If it wasn't for Toyota and Honda we will most likely be seeing GM and Ford still putting out crappy vehicles.

Why do you people wish to see the American auto industry to die so badly? Shouldn't you wish for them to improve instead?

Lord Blackadder
Feb 25, 2010, 10:25 AM
The H3 is a GREAT truck and the BEST on gas in it's class, ignorance is bliss, LOL.

It's a little 5 cylinder motor geared just right, enough power to pull a boat and for it's size and comparable SUV or Pick Up Truck counterparts it's great on gas.

So what's the problem with the H3. Jealousy, or the false stigma attached to it. Obviously it's there and even when the economy turned GM couldn't explain it's way out of it with there "Think it's a gas guzzler, think again" campaign.

The problem being that the same engine in a Chevy Colorado is more fuel efficient.

That, and the fact that people seem turned off by the styling.

quagmire
Feb 25, 2010, 10:34 AM
The problem being that the same engine in a Chevy Colorado is more fuel efficient.

That, and the fact that people seem turned off by the styling.

The Colorado does weigh ~1000 lb. less. So that might help. ;)

IgnatiusTheKing
Feb 25, 2010, 10:35 AM
How? Ford and Chrysler won't be able to absorb them and the foreign transplant plants are doing everything they can to keep their plants from unionizing. They have no where to go.

That was sarcasm. The UAW's inflexibility is one of the reasons GM is in the state it's in. Not the major factor, but a factor nonetheless.

And explain this me. Why do you want to see GM go under so badly? Especially when their products are improving. Why do you want to see any company to go under? Wouldn't you hope that they improve instead? Competition is good. What did GM do to you personally that you want them to die? I don't wish Toyota and Honda to go under even though I doubt I will ever see myself buying cars from them. They are keeping Ford and GM on their toes and have to strive to be the best. If it wasn't for Toyota and Honda we will most likely be seeing GM and Ford still putting out crappy vehicles.

Why do you people wish to see the American auto industry to die so badly? Shouldn't you wish for them to improve instead?

I don't want them to go under. They already have. History has proved time and again that flawed business models don't magically improve when the government steps in and bails an industry out. Knowing they won't be allowed to fail only reinforces the problems that existed before. The threat of going out of business ensures innovation and competitive pricing. If a company mismanages itself this poorly, it should go out of business. But the government has removed that threat, so it has removed GM's incentive to improve.

I also think it's outrageous that the government forced the head of a private company to resign. That's not the way we're supposed to do things in this country.

quagmire
Feb 25, 2010, 10:42 AM
T


I don't want them to go under. They already have. History has proved time and again that flawed business models don't magically improve when the government steps in and bails an industry out. Knowing they won't be allowed to fail only reinforces the problems that existed before. The threat of going out of business ensures innovation and competitive pricing. If a company mismanages itself this poorly, it should go out of business. But the government has removed that threat, so it has removed GM's incentive to improve.

I also think it's outrageous that the government forced the head of a private company to resign. That's not the way we're supposed to do things in this country.

It's a lose-lose. Government holds the management accountable for its horrible decisions, and they get knocked for it. To hold this from going into PRSI I will be brief, we wanted stipulations and government oversight on the banks since they were taking our money, but then they do it with GM, and they get knocked for it. It's a lose-lose no matter what GM or the government does.

That incentive will be back by the end of the year when the IPO is issued and the US sells off the 60% shares to regain the rest of the money they gave to GM. They were already improving when they entered Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Just the recession caused the flow of money to dwindle so they couldn't restructure on their own. The restructuring started back in 2005 which the media has failed to mention. It is just they needed aid to finish due to the recession.

Hell, Delta and many other airlines have filed Chapter 11( some more then once) since 9/11 and I don't see them on anyones Death Watch...... There are plenty of companies that have gone through Chapter 11 and has survived.

Again, I will keep this brief to prevent the move to PRSI, but this isn't the first time our government has propped up an industry. Farmers, the airlines, and US steel has had help from the government to prop them up to name a few.

QEII Student IT
Feb 25, 2010, 10:49 AM
Hopefully all of Government Motors will go the way of the Hummer.

General Motors

Lord Blackadder
Feb 25, 2010, 11:48 AM
It is amusing to note that the Chinese government refused to allow the brand to be sold to a Chinese company because it would make them look bad. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8536360.stm) :eek:

As a symbol of conspicuous consumption, or of a lack of regard for the environment, the Hummer makes its owners look distinctly out of touch with the current public mood.

Slightly hyperbolic but it captures the mood of most Hummer-haters.

Scooterman1
Feb 25, 2010, 12:06 PM
GM is scrapping all kinds of vehicles. Deleted the Saturn brand (which I thought did fairly well), deleting Hummers, and no telling what else. Chrysler is in trouble, Toyota is in trouble..... looks like Ford is still doing fairly well. Why would ANYONE want to buy a GM product when it may be scrapped anytime? And the same with Toyota when you may have a life threatening problem that they can't isolate, or refuse to deal with realistically....
So, this is too bad for Hummer owners....... And too bad for GM stockholders for the long haul.

Lord Blackadder
Feb 25, 2010, 12:14 PM
Indeed, GM appeals to Americans' patriotism in order to get sales...but, just for argument's sake, wouldn't it be more patriotic to buy a car from Ford, who didn't need any of my tax dollars to stay afloat?

Regardless, now that the albatross that was Hummer is off GM's neck (among numerous other trimmings), the best we can do is hope that they are truly getting their collective crap together and getting on with the business of building better cars.

quagmire
Feb 25, 2010, 03:22 PM
GM is scrapping all kinds of vehicles. Deleted the Saturn brand (which I thought did fairly well), deleting Hummers, and no telling what else. Chrysler is in trouble, Toyota is in trouble..... looks like Ford is still doing fairly well. Why would ANYONE want to buy a GM product when it may be scrapped anytime? And the same with Toyota when you may have a life threatening problem that they can't isolate, or refuse to deal with realistically....
So, this is too bad for Hummer owners....... And too bad for GM stockholders for the long haul.

Ford is not doing well business wise. They are up the wazoo with debt. The only reason they didn't need aid is because they mortgaged everything they had before the recession. So while they appeared smart in the ignorant public eyes, in reality they are in a worse position then GM is on paper. GM doesn't have massive amount of debt anymore thanks to the magic of Chapter 11 bankruptcy. They should be profitable this year barring any unexpected downturns in the economy and any extra costs to shore up their Opel operations. Shutting down Hummer along with Saturn and Pontiac is not costing GM a thing because they are owned by Motors Liquidation and have the burden of shutting them down.

It's been almost a year since GM's Chapter 11 bankruptcy and no offense, this post shows you haven't been following what happened. In short, GM in bankruptcy split. A new government owned company bought GM's 4 core brands( Chevy, Cadillac, GMC, and Buick). They exited bankruptcy and changed their name to General Motors Company. General Motors Corporation remained in bankruptcy and changed their name to Motors Liquidation and has the non-core brands and the bad assets. They will eventually liquidate. The 4 core brands of GM are the most safe brands right now and consumers can have confidence to buy them. The only one I would say is the "least" safe brand would be GMC, but as long as the brand is a cash cow for GM, they will never kill it. Chevy is the safest brand of all of them. Chevy will never be killed unless GM itself goes under.

So in reality, with a few rough edges still to work out, GM is doing pretty well. Most of their sales( 98% last month) are the core brands and were up 3% in retail(up 14% overall). They can not make the Equinox,Terrain, and Camaro fast enough. Malibu outsold Camry( and Fusion) and the new LaCrosse outsold the Lexus ES last month. Fleet sales were 29%( the least of any of the Big 3 and remember not all fleet sales are rental companies). GM is aiming for a 24-26% in fleet sales so they are doing fairly well in that regard.

Of the Big 3, I would say GM is doing the best( if everything goes to plan and they pull off a profit this year,etc), Ford is 2nd( again, while products are roughly equal with GM their debt is holding them back), with Chrysler in a distant 3rd. Even with bankruptcy, Chrysler is still in trouble.

Oh and what GM shareholders? GM is a private company now( though the IPO is planned for later this year).

Indeed, GM appeals to Americans' patriotism in order to get sales...but, just for argument's sake, wouldn't it be more patriotic to buy a car from Ford, who didn't need any of my tax dollars to stay afloat?

Regardless, now that the albatross that was Hummer is off GM's neck (among numerous other trimmings), the best we can do is hope that they are truly getting their collective crap together and getting on with the business of building better cars.

Everyone tries to appeal to patriotism to get sales. Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, etc. GM now has the product( with a few they need to deal with still, but are coming) to back that up.

Sun Baked
Feb 25, 2010, 04:07 PM
The original humvee is made by AM general. Gm just licensed the name hummer from them. Am general still made the H1 for gm, though the h2 and h3 were entirely GM creations. I don't know if Am general sells humvees to the public direct though ( end even if they do, they are ridiculously expensive)

AM General might pick back up some of the small Hummer dealers, or a few large parts dealers repair houses.

Should reset to a smaller network than right before GM, and likely only servicing and supplying parts for the original humvee.

Likely expect to see them shipping parts direct from their warehouse and selling the road certified version on eBay, until the market turns around.

Problem is, that the market was hot when GM nabbed em and AM General was expanding the dealer network, don't think a humvee only dealer will survive well right now.

Had quite a few niche dealers back then several Corvette-, Hummer-, Jeeps- only style dealers in the city servicing and selling only one style vehicle.

IgnatiusTheKing
Feb 25, 2010, 10:15 PM
Hell, Delta and many other airlines have filed Chapter 11( some more then once) since 9/11 and I don't see them on anyones Death Watch...... There are plenty of companies that have gone through Chapter 11 and has survived.

The US airlines have been the recipients of massive government financial aid (they have been deemed "too important to fail") yet they continue to get worse because they know Washington will always be there to prop them back up if they fall too far.

velocityg4
Feb 26, 2010, 06:29 AM
I never really saw the interest in the H2 or H3. The only Hummer model I wanted was the H1. Even then I had no interest in the civilian model.

The only one I would want would be the military model with armor plating and the .50 cal machine gun mounted on it:cool:.

quagmire
Feb 26, 2010, 06:32 AM
I never really saw the interest in the H2 or H3. The only Hummer model I wanted was the H1. Even then I had no interest in the civilian model.

The only one I would want would be the military model with armor plating and the .50 cal machine gun mounted on it:cool:.

This is the closest you can get to it. :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INbMdEHm4Ug

iOrlando
Feb 26, 2010, 12:15 PM
Ford is not doing well business wise. They are up the wazoo with debt. The only reason they didn't need aid is because they mortgaged everything they had before the recession. So while they appeared smart in the ignorant public eyes, in reality they are in a worse position then GM is on paper. GM doesn't have massive amount of debt anymore thanks to the magic of Chapter 11 bankruptcy. They should be profitable this year barring any unexpected downturns in the economy and any extra costs to shore up their Opel operations. Shutting down Hummer along with Saturn and Pontiac is not costing GM a thing because they are owned by Motors Liquidation and have the burden of shutting them down.

It's been almost a year since GM's Chapter 11 bankruptcy and no offense, this post shows you haven't been following what happened. In short, GM in bankruptcy split. A new government owned company bought GM's 4 core brands( Chevy, Cadillac, GMC, and Buick). They exited bankruptcy and changed their name to General Motors Company. General Motors Corporation remained in bankruptcy and changed their name to Motors Liquidation and has the non-core brands and the bad assets. They will eventually liquidate. The 4 core brands of GM are the most safe brands right now and consumers can have confidence to buy them. The only one I would say is the "least" safe brand would be GMC, but as long as the brand is a cash cow for GM, they will never kill it. Chevy is the safest brand of all of them. Chevy will never be killed unless GM itself goes under.

So in reality, with a few rough edges still to work out, GM is doing pretty well. Most of their sales( 98% last month) are the core brands and were up 3% in retail(up 14% overall). They can not make the Equinox,Terrain, and Camaro fast enough. Malibu outsold Camry( and Fusion) and the new LaCrosse outsold the Lexus ES last month. Fleet sales were 29%( the least of any of the Big 3 and remember not all fleet sales are rental companies). GM is aiming for a 24-26% in fleet sales so they are doing fairly well in that regard.

Of the Big 3, I would say GM is doing the best( if everything goes to plan and they pull off a profit this year,etc), Ford is 2nd( again, while products are roughly equal with GM their debt is holding them back), with Chrysler in a distant 3rd. Even with bankruptcy, Chrysler is still in trouble.

Oh and what GM shareholders? GM is a private company now( though the IPO is planned for later this year).



Everyone tries to appeal to patriotism to get sales. Ford, GM, Toyota, Honda, etc. GM now has the product( with a few they need to deal with still, but are coming) to back that up.


so then you must think every company that ever declared bankruptcy and comes out of it is in better shape than any other company.

Truth is GM is in far worse shape than Ford. No question about it.
Ford is actually making money. Ford's stock has done well--making the large equity market open again to raise capital if need be.

I dont know about you, but I am hearing alot of people go to Ford cars lately, and I am starting to hear the words Cool and Hip being passed around. In car world, image and brand are everything.

GM is still GM. Not much has changed with them. I love the look of the new camero...but cant seem to find many of them. Is the volt even out yet? ugh.

I dont know the percentage but out of 100 companies that go into bankruptcy..not many really have a bright future after coming out of bankruptcy. They act more like living dead.

quagmire
Feb 26, 2010, 01:05 PM
so then you must think every company that ever declared bankruptcy and comes out of it is in better shape than any other company.

Truth is GM is in far worse shape than Ford. No question about it.
Ford is actually making money. Ford's stock has done well--making the large equity market open again to raise capital if need be.

I dont know about you, but I am hearing alot of people go to Ford cars lately, and I am starting to hear the words Cool and Hip being passed around. In car world, image and brand are everything.

GM is still GM. Not much has changed with them. I love the look of the new camero...but cant seem to find many of them. Is the volt even out yet? ugh.

I dont know the percentage but out of 100 companies that go into bankruptcy..not many really have a bright future after coming out of bankruptcy. They act more like living dead.

GM will have zero debt by June and has cash reserves of $38 billion. Ford has roughly $34 billion in debt( most of it is secured debt). Yeah, Ford was profitable for two quarters, but Q1 should pull a profit for GM barring any unexpected costs over at GM's Opel operations. Financially, Ford is still in a bad position while bankruptcy helped GM out. And no I don't believe bankruptcy automatically puts the company in better shape. Chrysler went through Chapter 11 and I still worry about their chances of survivability. That is due to Chrysler, unlike GM, didn't start to restructure until the recession hit pretty much.

GM started to restructure back in 2005. In 2006 and 2007 they managed to cut operation costs dramatically and get a big win with the UAW contracts. Frankly, bankruptcy helped Wagoner's restructuring plan. In a lot of ways, it is similar to GM's plan when they entered Chapter 11. GM is looking to be profitable this year as well as issuing the IPO.

I am not saying Ford's products have not improved. They have dramatically. But, GM's products also have improved. Yes, Ford has begun to have a positive image again due to not needing government aid. But, due to that they have $34 billion of debt to pay back where GM will have none by June. Also, GM's average transaction price went up by $900 in January while Ford's went down by $2000. GM's fleet sales was 29% in January while Ford's was around 38%( Chrysler was 50%).

You can't find the Camaro at dealers because GM can't make them fast enough. Same with the new Equinox and Terrain. The Volt will be released this fall. Considering the concept was unveiled in 2007 as a pure concept with little plans for production, three years is not a bad turnaround of concept to production considering the battery technology wasn't even existent at a reasonable cost back then.

michael.lauden
Feb 26, 2010, 01:10 PM
The problem being that the same engine in a Chevy Colorado is more fuel efficient.

That, and the fact that people seem turned off by the styling.

Yeah... and the hummer is $$$$$$$

if you need a truck to pull a boat - get a truck, not a glorified army machine.

I'm pretty sure there is no real reason to own a Hummer. Sure it works great, but so do the other ten million cars/trucks/SUVs available.

iOrlando
Feb 26, 2010, 03:05 PM
GM will have zero debt by June and has cash reserves of $38 billion. Ford has roughly $34 billion in debt( most of it is secured debt). Yeah, Ford was profitable for two quarters, but Q1 should pull a profit for GM barring any unexpected costs over at GM's Opel operations. Financially, Ford is still in a bad position while bankruptcy helped GM out. And no I don't believe bankruptcy automatically puts the company in better shape. Chrysler went through Chapter 11 and I still worry about their chances of survivability. That is due to Chrysler, unlike GM, didn't start to restructure until the recession hit pretty much.

GM started to restructure back in 2005. In 2006 and 2007 they managed to cut operation costs dramatically and get a big win with the UAW contracts. Frankly, bankruptcy helped Wagoner's restructuring plan. In a lot of ways, it is similar to GM's plan when they entered Chapter 11. GM is looking to be profitable this year as well as issuing the IPO.

I am not saying Ford's products have not improved. They have dramatically. But, GM's products also have improved. Yes, Ford has begun to have a positive image again due to not needing government aid. But, due to that they have $34 billion of debt to pay back where GM will have none by June. Also, GM's average transaction price went up by $900 in January while Ford's went down by $2000. GM's fleet sales was 29% in January while Ford's was around 38%( Chrysler was 50%).

You can't find the Camaro at dealers because GM can't make them fast enough. Same with the new Equinox and Terrain. The Volt will be released this fall. Considering the concept was unveiled in 2007 as a pure concept with little plans for production, three years is not a bad turnaround of concept to production considering the battery technology wasn't even existent at a reasonable cost back then.

yes. but companies coming out of bankruptcy are a very wild animal. its like an individual declaring bankruptcy. Once they come out of it..sure they may look better since their debt is all rearranged but good luck trying to get enough credit to buy a deck of cards. You are basically turned into a "saver" unable to rely on credit for anything. I've run into people that this has happened to and its one of the most horrible things you can experience. Bankruptcy is not some fun process where you can just simply declare it, say goodbye to the debt, and then continue on. GM's problems are lousy cars mixed with overpaid workers. Simple as that. Sure they are making changes and all but I would pick Ford over GM as being in the best condition.

quagmire
Feb 26, 2010, 03:25 PM
yes. but companies coming out of bankruptcy are a very wild animal. its like an individual declaring bankruptcy. Once they come out of it..sure they may look better since their debt is all rearranged but good luck trying to get enough credit to buy a deck of cards. You are basically turned into a "saver" unable to rely on credit for anything. I've run into people that this has happened to and its one of the most horrible things you can experience. Bankruptcy is not some fun process where you can just simply declare it, say goodbye to the debt, and then continue on. GM's problems are lousy cars mixed with overpaid workers. Simple as that. Sure they are making changes and all but I would pick Ford over GM as being in the best condition.

Both of those problems have been fixed. Out of the Big 3, GM has the best UAW contract right now. Ford is trying to get something similar, but the fact they didn't need aid is hurting them with the UAW. GM's latest products are vast improvements like Ford's have been. The remaining lame duck products are about to be replaced( with the exception of the Impala being 3 years out and XTS being 2 years out, but again that is due to plan changes back in 2008-2009) with the Cruze and new Aveo.

That is what I meant about the magic of bankruptcy is that they are able to get the debt wiped clean. I didn't say bankruptcy is the best option or anything, but that is what Chapter 11 bankruptcy does. GM exited bankruptcy with great finances. It is now their job to keep it in good condition or they will find themselves right back in Chapter 11 or even Chapter 7.

Ford was lucky that the economy didn't get worse then it did. If the economy does go through another down period any time soon( hey it is possible. During the Great Depression, it went down again after signs of recovery) Ford will go through GM's road and become insolvent. Right now what is left of Ford's cash is what they got when they mortgaged every asset they had. If the economy turns back down again and Ford starts burning cash again, they will not be able to get any lines of credit. Ford's fate right now is dependent on the economy recovering without any more downturns.

Smith288
Mar 4, 2010, 11:07 AM
I would love to own one of the hummers. The original first but the others always looked rugged and less feminine than other suvs out there.

Some of the posters on this forum remind me of the South Park episode where all the prius drivers were smelling their own farts out of smugness.

QuantumLo0p
Mar 4, 2010, 03:11 PM
Looking at a bigger picture GM should be shut down. It has an unsustainable business model and is still around ONLY because of HUGE cash infusions from tax payers. Outdated manufacturing facilities, unsustainable labor contracts (entitled workers?), poor engineering and much more has caught up with the Detroit flag ship. They should be shut down and let the market pick up the slack. Perhaps there is no slack to take up in this economy? LET THE MARKET DECIDE, NOT SOCIALISTIC GOVERNMENT TAKE OVERS!!!

IMO the H1 is the only REAL Hummer. The H2 and the H3 are more or less typical, boring cars most of us waste our lives driving day after day that do not give us the rush of driving a truly unique, specialized vehicle.
:D

RaceTripper
Mar 4, 2010, 03:23 PM
I would love to own one of the hummers. The original first but the others always looked rugged and less feminine than other suvs out there.

Some of the posters on this forum remind me of the South Park episode where all the prius drivers were smelling their own farts out of smugness.I'll take hummers over farts anytime, but not the ones from GM. :p

quagmire
Mar 4, 2010, 04:31 PM
Looking at a bigger picture GM should be shut down. It has an unsustainable business model and is still around ONLY because of HUGE cash infusions from tax payers. Outdated manufacturing facilities, unsustainable labor contracts (entitled workers?), poor engineering and much more has caught up with the Detroit flag ship. They should be shut down and let the market pick up the slack. Perhaps there is no slack to take up in this economy? LET THE MARKET DECIDE, NOT SOCIALISTIC GOVERNMENT TAKE OVERS!!!

IMO the H1 is the only REAL Hummer. The H2 and the H3 are more or less typical, boring cars most of us waste our lives driving day after day that do not give us the rush of driving a truly unique, specialized vehicle.
:D

Out of touch much?

Outdated manufacturing facilities? That is why the #1 quality plant in NA according to JD Power is GM's Oshawa facility..... That is why the greenest( or one of the greenest at least) plants is GM's Lansing Delta plant? That GM plans to have most if not all of their plants to be flex plants by 2014 or so.

UAW? Yes, they were greedy and it cost GM big time. But, now they have the best UAW contract out of the Big 3 and has zero wage gap with Toyota( both make about the same now). GM's healthcare costs has been transferred to the VEBA fund which GM will put $1-2 billion into every few years.

Poor engineering? So GM's vehicles have unintended acceleration which GM has attempted to hide from the government for years? That is why they had to recall their small trucks for frame rust? Why the brand new 2007 Camry needed to be recalled for transmission issues right out of the gate? Or is it that you keep on using perception from the 80's to say they have poor engineering?

GM this quarter might pull off a profit( the just recently announced $2.7 billion infusion into their Opel operations might stop that...). There is also a pretty good chance of GM being profitable for 2010. GM is operating at a pretty nice cash flow right now. It just took Chapter 11 to streamline the books and get rid of the bad assets causing the cash burn. The restructuring plan that GM used is from 2005. Just the recession caused a huge reduction in cash flow and GM was not able to get funds to further fund their restructuring plan. So the government stepped in. As I mentioned earlier, this isn't the first time the government has helped out its own industries. The government has helped out the aviation industry, US Steel, farmers, Amtrak, and now the automakers. Which last time I checked, those are major industries for our country. If Japan can do it, why can't we? Is Japan socialist for protecting its own industries?

What market to pick up the slack? Who is going to hire the tons of people that would have been laid off? Who would keep on buying parts to keep the suppliers in business? We are in a recession. There is no market to pick up the slack. I also don't approve letting one of our major industries to go belly up and be dependent on a foreign country for our automobiles( people are outraged by being reliant on foreign oil, but why not cars, TV's, electronics, etc?).

QuantumLo0p
Mar 5, 2010, 03:07 PM
Out of touch much?

Outdated manufacturing facilities? That is why the #1 quality plant in NA according to JD Power is GM's Oshawa facility..... That is why the greenest( or one of the greenest at least) plants is GM's Lansing Delta plant? That GM plans to have most if not all of their plants to be flex plants by 2014 or so.

UAW? Yes, they were greedy and it cost GM big time. But, now they have the best UAW contract out of the Big 3 and has zero wage gap with Toyota( both make about the same now). GM's healthcare costs has been transferred to the VEBA fund which GM will put $1-2 billion into every few years.

Poor engineering? So GM's vehicles have unintended acceleration which GM has attempted to hide from the government for years? That is why they had to recall their small trucks for frame rust? Why the brand new 2007 Camry needed to be recalled for transmission issues right out of the gate? Or is it that you keep on using perception from the 80's to say they have poor engineering?

GM this quarter might pull off a profit( the just recently announced $2.7 billion infusion into their Opel operations might stop that...). There is also a pretty good chance of GM being profitable for 2010. GM is operating at a pretty nice cash flow right now. It just took Chapter 11 to streamline the books and get rid of the bad assets causing the cash burn. The restructuring plan that GM used is from 2005. Just the recession caused a huge reduction in cash flow and GM was not able to get funds to further fund their restructuring plan. So the government stepped in. As I mentioned earlier, this isn't the first time the government has helped out its own industries. The government has helped out the aviation industry, US Steel, farmers, Amtrak, and now the automakers. Which last time I checked, those are major industries for our country. If Japan can do it, why can't we? Is Japan socialist for protecting its own industries?

What market to pick up the slack? Who is going to hire the tons of people that would have been laid off? Who would keep on buying parts to keep the suppliers in business? We are in a recession. There is no market to pick up the slack. I also don't approve letting one of our major industries to go belly up and be dependent on a foreign country for our automobiles( people are outraged by being reliant on foreign oil, but why not cars, TV's, electronics, etc?).

You are citing a plant. Every GM plant is what you describe?

Does the new labor contract guarantee unrealistic payouts for layoffs?
GM's health care costs are still high and, as all excess overhead is handled, will be passed onto to the buyer, further detracting from GM's desirability. BTW, I'm sure the union is tickled pink that more and more manufacturing and assembly is happening outside the United States.

Yes, engineering. You seem to be focused on criticizing other brands' models rather than GM's. Yes, GM in IMO, has relatively poor engineering. Overall longevity, wear items, fit and finish are all relatively low compared to offerings from other companies. Is GM even lower, now, than the rest of Detroit? Probably the biggest mistake that GM made was to not respond quick enough to the market. The Volt? Yeah, right. Perhaps if it would not cost an arm and a leg it might actually become popular. As it stands it's sales will under perform.

You did not mention when, or if, GM is planning to pay back the tax payers and how that reflects on if GM is actually making a profit or not. Much of the Government help is not only unwarranted but undesirable. Direct Government ownership of our economy is a bad idea and currently is at unprecedented levels. Revenue does decrease during a recession but that does not mean that Government should bail out unsustainable companies. Why prop up a bad company only to have it underperform and possibly require billions of dollars more???

The GM bailout smacks more of an Obama/democrat power grab than a sound business move. GM used to be at the top of the sales charts but a steady decline to the bottom has shown they should close doors and go home. Instead they stepped in to save an unsustainable company with labor contracts that sounds more like living in Venezuela under Chavez than living in a country that fought tooth and nail for liberty and to escape the tyranny we are steadily sliding towards. How in the world did the unions lose their way so badly? Entitlements? Greed? Lack of personal responsibility?

Picking up the slack? Of course it will happen; always does. The economy is smaller during a recession but gets BIGGER during recovery. The market is self correcting. This is evident in Obama's failing stimulus spending. Most of the funds have not been spent and, despite Obama doing massive damage by his sky-is-falling speeches, the economy is slowing correcting itself.

Remember cash for clunkers? Yeah, you know, the program that actually cost tax payers about $24K per car??? It turns out the Obama administration did not factor in the little detail about funding vehicle purchases that would have occurred without cash-for-clunkers money. This fiasco inflated car sales and created a bubble.

The same politicians that bend over backwards for union votes are the same politicians forcing companies to do business overseas because they are hostile to companies here. They are constantly demonizing capitalism but at the same time bleed tax dollars from big business every chance they get. Socialism only works until you run out of other people's money. It is unsustainable.

quagmire
Mar 5, 2010, 04:17 PM
You are citing a plant. Every GM plant is what you describe?

By 2014, every GM plant will be a modern flex plant. And no not every GM plant is the best plant ever. But, neither is Toyota's or Honda's, etc.

Does the new labor contract guarantee unrealistic payouts for layoffs?
GM's health care costs are still high and, as all excess overhead is handled, will be passed onto to the buyer, further detracting from GM's desirability. BTW, I'm sure the union is tickled pink that more and more manufacturing and assembly is happening outside the United States.

I would imagine so. There is also no more Jobs Bank so GM doesn't have to pay workers for sitting on their butt.

Here is a link to GM's health care costs. Note: HealthCare costs went from $2 billion per quarter to $400 million to $3.4 billion a year. That is a drastic decrease in costs.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f12/gm-sheds-billions-costs-today-87516/

Yes, engineering. You seem to be focused on criticizing other brands' models rather than GM's. Yes, GM in IMO, has relatively poor engineering. Overall longevity, wear items, fit and finish are all relatively low compared to offerings from other companies. Is GM even lower, now, than the rest of Detroit? Probably the biggest mistake that GM made was to not respond quick enough to the market. The Volt? Yeah, right. Perhaps if it would not cost an arm and a leg it might actually become popular. As it stands it's sales will under perform.

Yes, GM did not respond quick enough with the changing market. That much I can not deny. But, what is wrong with the Volt? It may be late to the market, but what is wrong with it engineering wise( and how you are able to get a sneak peak at one with enough time to find all these major faults). I do not see how ~$40,000 is an arm and a leg( $32K after tax credits). Most of the most popular SUV's back in the SUV fad cost that much. It won't hit Prius levels, but the Prius didn't have huge success initially due to its initial high price( new technology always costs more). Our 2002 Chevy Suburban is 8 years old and it has not had a single major problem yet. Our Equinox is 4 years old and has not had a major problem yet. My Aura XR is 3 years old and has not had a major problem yet. Same story with our 1996 Suburban. The 6 years we owned it, gave us no major problems. And as we bought newer GM products, build quality improved as with interior materials.

Where the Camry has gone down. Back in 2004 we had a Camry as a rental. I liked it. The interior was nice and had good qualities. Stepped into the new 2007 Camry at my auto show and the materials were cheap and hard. The Tundra's interior is atrocious. Not only cheap materials, but the HVAC and radio controls are out of reach of the driver.

You did not mention when, or if, GM is planning to pay back the tax payers and how that reflects on if GM is actually making a profit or not. Much of the Government help is not only unwarranted but undesirable. Direct Government ownership of our economy is a bad idea and currently is at unprecedented levels. Revenue does decrease during a recession but that does not mean that Government should bail out unsustainable companies. Why prop up a bad company only to have it underperform and possibly require billions of dollars more???

Because I do not know. GM is planning to pay their official debt back by June. The rest of the money that will be recovered by the government is when they sell their stake in GM when they issue the IPO( which is estimated to happen this year). I also suspect this will be a slow process as if the government sells all at once, another company might swoop in and grab control of GM. So I suspect the government will sell their stake piece by piece.

Also, how many back in the 1930's thought the commercial airline business was unsustainable? The government propped them up.

And is it just me or are you more interested in posting Anti-Obama and socialistic stuff then actually providing facts about GM?

DakotaGuy
Mar 5, 2010, 06:18 PM
GM will have zero debt by June and has cash reserves of $38 billion. Ford has roughly $34 billion in debt( most of it is secured debt). Yeah, Ford was profitable for two quarters, but Q1 should pull a profit for GM barring any unexpected costs over at GM's Opel operations. Financially, Ford is still in a bad position while bankruptcy helped GM out. And no I don't believe bankruptcy automatically puts the company in better shape. Chrysler went through Chapter 11 and I still worry about their chances of survivability. That is due to Chrysler, unlike GM, didn't start to restructure until the recession hit pretty much.

GM started to restructure back in 2005. In 2006 and 2007 they managed to cut operation costs dramatically and get a big win with the UAW contracts. Frankly, bankruptcy helped Wagoner's restructuring plan. In a lot of ways, it is similar to GM's plan when they entered Chapter 11. GM is looking to be profitable this year as well as issuing the IPO.

I am not saying Ford's products have not improved. They have dramatically. But, GM's products also have improved. Yes, Ford has begun to have a positive image again due to not needing government aid. But, due to that they have $34 billion of debt to pay back where GM will have none by June. Also, GM's average transaction price went up by $900 in January while Ford's went down by $2000. GM's fleet sales was 29% in January while Ford's was around 38%( Chrysler was 50%).

You can't find the Camaro at dealers because GM can't make them fast enough. Same with the new Equinox and Terrain. The Volt will be released this fall. Considering the concept was unveiled in 2007 as a pure concept with little plans for production, three years is not a bad turnaround of concept to production considering the battery technology wasn't even existent at a reasonable cost back then.

Ford is doing quite well even with the debt load. Their market share and stock price continues to rise. Last month, Ford outsold GM in the US for the first time in 13 years. If you go back before that one month in 1998 when GM had a large strike to contend with I think you would find the last time that happened was sometime during the Great Depression. I am not sure if it will become a trend, but it is a notable accomplishment.

You have to understand that one of the biggest reasons Ford took a risk and mortgaged everything to survive without going through bankruptcy is the Ford family did not want to lose control of their company. Without the family, Ford probably would have went down the same path as Chrysler and GM.

You criticize others for wishing that GM would go under, but it sounds like you criticize Ford for taking the high road and being accountable for their own actions. Bankruptcy and a Government bail-out is the simple solution. Doing what Ford has done is not and I think customers notice that. Just think Ford was able to outsell GM this past month and they have many new products that have not even launched yet. One example in my mind is comparing the next generation Focus to the upcoming Chevy Cruze. I hate to say it to a GM fan, but the new Focus is going to have the Cruze for lunch when it comes to sales. I think the same is true when we compare the Fiesta to the Aveo. GM has made a lot of improvements, but I still think Ford can and will produce higher quality small cars. When the economy is poor small economical cars are big sellers.

This is just my opinion. I hope all of our US automakers survive. I am a little worried about Chrysler because they don't seem to have much of anything new and Fiat can only go so fast when it comes to trying to re-build the line. GM and Ford both have some nice new products, but I am glad that Ford has done it without taking massive Government bail-outs and that the family still controls the company. Bill Ford has said before that you care A LOT more when your name is on the building and on the products you make. I think this is very true.

quagmire
Mar 5, 2010, 07:34 PM
Ford is doing quite well even with the debt load. Their market share and stock price continues to rise. Last month, Ford outsold GM in the US for the first time in 13 years. If you go back before that one month in 1998 when GM had a large strike to contend with I think you would find the last time that happened was sometime during the Great Depression. I am not sure if it will become a trend, but it is a notable accomplishment.

You have to understand that one of the biggest reasons Ford took a risk and mortgaged everything to survive without going through bankruptcy is the Ford family did not want to lose control of their company. Without the family, Ford probably would have went down the same path as Chrysler and GM.

You criticize others for wishing that GM would go under, but it sounds like you criticize Ford for taking the high road and being accountable for their own actions. Bankruptcy and a Government bail-out is the simple solution. Doing what Ford has done is not and I think customers notice that. Just think Ford was able to outsell GM this past month and they have many new products that have not even launched yet. One example in my mind is comparing the next generation Focus to the upcoming Chevy Cruze. I hate to say it to a GM fan, but the new Focus is going to have the Cruze for lunch when it comes to sales. I think the same is true when we compare the Fiesta to the Aveo. GM has made a lot of improvements, but I still think Ford can and will produce higher quality small cars. When the economy is poor small economical cars are big sellers.

This is just my opinion. I hope all of our US automakers survive. I am a little worried about Chrysler because they don't seem to have much of anything new and Fiat can only go so fast when it comes to trying to re-build the line. GM and Ford both have some nice new products, but I am glad that Ford has done it without taking massive Government bail-outs and that the family still controls the company. Bill Ford has said before that you care A LOT more when your name is on the building and on the products you make. I think this is very true.

Not criticizing, just pointing out Ford took a huge risk, but luckily it paid off. They have a good image right now. Just pointing out financially Ford is not in good shape at the moment. But, since they are starting to be profitable again, they can get that debt paid off.


I am not so sure about the new Focus design wise. I am sure it will sell well, but I liked the previous European Focus better then the new one. They ruined the Fiesta though in sedan form.

QuantumLo0p
Mar 25, 2010, 11:40 PM
IMO the market should decide; it is self correcting but the Obama regime would have believe otherwise. The gov't should never had stepped in. It was a bad idea and still is. It is wrong for the gov't to own so much of our economy. Any of our economy, actually. That is not the purpose of gov't. It is wrong for the gov't to bail out the auto workers unions as well and is nothing less than a power grab.

Personally I know nobody who approves of the gov't takeover. I know quite a few people who used to be die-hard GM fans as well as Big-Three fans.

But no more. They have all vowed to never buy another GM product. Even if GM could pay back the tax payers, which will most likely never happen; the power grab by the current regime will attempt to perpetuate.

We would serve the future well to follow the wise decisions of our founding fathers and the framers of out constitution rather than the irrational, oppresive rants of Hitler, Chavez, Castro and Kim.

What the heck happened to us?!? How did we get so lost?!?
:eek:

You are all entitled to your opinions as I are to mine...at least for now, until our constitution is rendered completely useless.
:eek:

quagmire
Mar 26, 2010, 08:26 AM
IMO the market should decide; it is self correcting but the Obama regime would have believe otherwise. The gov't should never had stepped in. It was a bad idea and still is. It is wrong for the gov't to own so much of our economy. Any of our economy, actually. That is not the purpose of gov't. It is wrong for the gov't to bail out the auto workers unions as well and is nothing less than a power grab.

Personally I know nobody who approves of the gov't takeover. I know quite a few people who used to be die-hard GM fans as well as Big-Three fans.

But no more. They have all vowed to never buy another GM product. Even if GM could pay back the tax payers, which will most likely never happen; the power grab by the current regime will attempt to perpetuate.

We would serve the future well to follow the wise decisions of our founding fathers and the framers of out constitution rather than the irrational, oppresive rants of Hitler, Chavez, Castro and Kim.

What the heck happened to us?!? How did we get so lost?!?
:eek:

You are all entitled to your opinions as I are to mine...at least for now, until our constitution is rendered completely useless.
:eek:

You can add me to the list of people who supported it. I do not believe in letting our domestic auto industry go down the tubes and rely on foreign brands for our products. I do not like that Ares was cancelled with no plans for a replacement program to replace the Shuttle because we are now reliant on the Russians to get us to space.

Considering how poor our public transportation is, I would not feel comfortable relying on cars companies from foreign countries just in case our relations sour. Call me paranoid, but I believe in being self reliant for our products. We already don't allow foreign companies to buy a majority stake in our domestic airlines nor do we allow foreign airlines to fly within the US( as in fly from NYC to Las Vegas). This is to protect our aviation industry. Lets say we let British Airways buy United. We go to war with Britain and BA can tell United to stop flying in the US.

Tell your friends if they went to buy a Toyota( and Honda most likely, but I have read of them helping Toyota more), that their government has given them money as well. They also gave Toyota money last year back in the worst of the recession. Sort of hypocritical of them if they refuse to buy a GM product because our government stepped in to aid our own industry while they buy a product from a company that their own government has aided them.

QuantumLo0p
Mar 29, 2010, 02:01 AM
There seems to be a lot of internal struggle for people involved in what used to be considered to be "American" cars. To buy an American brand car with a high percentage of foreign made parts and foreign assembly or buy a foreign car that has more American parts and assembly. Obviously it varies model to model but there are foreign models with more manufacturing and assembly done by American workers. The only difference becomes the stock of the company. That IS a very hard pill to swallow for union workers but sooner or later they have to accept reality.

The Honda Goldwing touring motorcycle had more American parts and assembly than Harley Davidson. That was one heck of bitter pill for Harley riders. Can you imagine?! (Although that was an old stat, I wonder if it still holds true. I will look it up.)

I would prefer to buy a car, any brand even foreign, that has a high level of American parts and assembly. To me that IS an American made car, like it or not. To take it one step further I could buy stock in that company too. Unions are going to have to get with the 21st century and make themselves sustainable if they want to survive. As of yet they are becoming more and more huge pains in the arse and more of them will be broken if they don't play ball with everyone else. Everyone is getting quite fed up with entitlements and the HUGE union "tax" that inflates car prices. That is one reason I have not bought a car newer than two years old; I find a clean, slightly used model I like and let the first owner take the 30-50% depreciation then step in to own the majority of the life of the vehicle.
:D

sharilewis
Mar 30, 2010, 04:48 AM
H3 is 5 cylinder better on gas than Toyota, Range Rover, Jeep, Pathfinder, Ford F150, Cadillac cars, some BMW's and more so what's the problem?


Yuasa NP7-12 (http://www.allbatterypros.com)

H00513R
Mar 30, 2010, 08:23 AM
The sooner the better. What a worthless hunk of junk.

MattG
Mar 30, 2010, 01:23 PM
Good riddance.