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macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 08:20 AM
At the moment we have a wireless network in our house that everyone connects to. I have a time capsule that i use to back up my mbp, the time capsule connects to the wireless router.


What I would like to do is to have my own wireless network either using the time capsule as my router or a spare wireless router that I have. I will refer to this as router 2 for simplicity.

I would like to connect router 2 to router 1 only so that i can receive the internet that comes into the house. I would then like to connect my macbook pro and my time capsule as well as a network drive to router 2. This way I will have my own private little network.

Is this possible and would the internet speed be much slower as it would have to go through 2 routers.

Many thanks:)



mstrze
Feb 26, 2010, 08:30 AM
I do something similar. I have an AEBS as my 5GHz 802.11 n-only network (MB, Mini and ATV), then I have another Netgear router attached via ethernet cable, serving as the slower, 'g' network (iPhones, PC laptop and Wii)

You can absolutely attach one router to another and serve up two different networks. :D

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 08:35 AM
thanks so much for your reply mstrze I think it would be really cool to have my own little private network :) (is that sad lol)

How do I go about setting it up do i need to use ethernet to connect the two routers or can i use wifi.

Thinking about it I would like to use my tc as the second router as it will save me from hunting around the garage to find the other!:)

mstrze
Feb 26, 2010, 08:41 AM
thanks so much for your reply mstrze I think it would be really cool to have my own little private network :) (is that sad lol)

How do I go about setting it up do i need to use ethernet to connect the two routers or can i use wifi.

Thinking about it I would like to use my tc as the second router as it will save me from hunting around the garage to find the other!:)

Not sure if you can have a discrete network via wifi...someone with more expertise than I can answer that.

I know that your can extend an existing network via wifi...in situations where part of your home/apt may not get a great signal, you use another router in a location that has a signal, to serve as a stronger connecting point for the more distant computers.

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 08:46 AM
Is that like a network bridge? I may just have a play around and see what i can come up with :)

mstrze
Feb 26, 2010, 08:48 AM
Is that like a network bridge? I may just have a play around and see what i can come up with :)

Not sure. I was using the terminology that Apple applies to it. Under the Airport Utility , it asks you if you want to set up a new network or if you want to "extend an existing network".

belvdr
Feb 26, 2010, 08:53 AM
You can't link them over WiFi, because the WiFi interface sits on the internal network of both devices. You need to connect the WAN interface of router 2 to a LAN interface of router 1.

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 08:54 AM
I will have a look at that extend and existing network section. Does that mean that the new extended part won't be private?:)

belvdr
Feb 26, 2010, 08:55 AM
I will have a look at that extend and existing network section. Does that mean that the new extended part won't be private?:)

If you extend via WiFi, you are extending the existing wireless, thus it is shared, not private.

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 08:57 AM
Thats what i thought. Is there a way to add a second router / wireless network to an existing network to create a private network.

All I need the second router to do is to pick up the wireless internet from the first router. then i can just connect my devices to that second router

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 08:59 AM
within the time capsule set up is says that you can create a second network but that you need to connect via ethernet. I want to connect wirelessly.:)

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 09:31 AM
From having a hunt around the internet, I think that I may need a wireless bridge? Am I correct in thinking this. Would one allow me to do what i want to do

belvdr
Feb 26, 2010, 09:33 AM
From having a hunt around the internet, I think that I may need a wireless bridge? Am I correct in thinking this. Would one allow me to do what i want to do

If you are using either two AEBS or TCs, you cannot connect them wirelessly and run two different subnets. Those devices are configured to have the wireless on the internal LAN side, not the WAN.

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 09:38 AM
Thanks for the reply. I currently have a belkin g wireless router as the main router in the house with the broadband connection plugged into it. The second router that I was hoping to use would either be TC or a Buffalo wbmr g125 wireless router. But as you said it wouldn't be possible to do what I want with those. What would I need to get to make this possible? I have included a diagram of what I would like as my setup :) I suppose the alternative would be to set up my own private network without connecting to the first router and so not having any internet on my private network.

mstrze
Feb 26, 2010, 11:28 AM
Why can't you just plug your TC or Buffalo wbmr g125 into the Belkin router with an ethernet cable?

Your computer will still be able to connect to your TC or Buffalo router wirelessly...and this will be all you need to do to create a personal wireless network.

Unless you somehow don't have physical access to the 'original' Belkin router??

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 11:34 AM
I could plug it in with an ethernet cable but that would mean having cables running through the house or drilling holes. If I have to then that may be something that I will have to do. If it can be done wirelessly I would prefer that as it would be neater:)

mstrze
Feb 26, 2010, 11:38 AM
I could plug it in with an ethernet cable but that would mean having cables running through the house or drilling holes. If I have to then that may be something that I will have to do. If it can be done wirelessly I would prefer that as it would be neater:)

Why run cables through walls?

Place the TC or Buffalo right next to the other router and use a 2 ft cable to connect them.

You can get the Belkin's signal now, right? You are obviously close enough for wireless access to work for you.

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 11:41 AM
Why run cables through walls?

Place the TC or Buffalo right next to the other router and use a 2 ft cable to connect them.

You can get the Belkin's signal now, right? You are obviously close enough for wireless access to work for you.


How dumb am I of course I can place the 2 routers together. Sorry lol:o

I have plugged an ethernet cable into a lan port on each router

What do I do then?:)

JGruber
Feb 26, 2010, 11:42 AM
I'm more interested in why you would want a separate network like this?

The way I do it at my house is like this.

High Speed Internet Modem > AEBS in "dual" mode w/ Guest Networking enabled.

My MBP, wife's MBP are on the "N" freq, or on the "Main" network (10.0.0.x) and my iPhone, 2 Dell PC's, 2 Dell servers are all on the "Guest Network (172.x.x.x)" Dell Laptops are wireless, and the servers are wired, into a Cisco2950, which is programmed to use the 172.x.x.x network. Seem's complex, but I have a lot of devices on in my house.

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 11:45 AM
I wanted to set up my own private little network for all my devices. Keep them separate from everyone else in the house.:) Also I like to learn how to do new things

JGruber
Feb 26, 2010, 11:49 AM
Makes sense, do you have the TC with built in dual band or guest networking?

That would make things 10x easier, and you would be on your 'private network'.

You can use the main network and use the other PC's on the Guest network. The 2 networks can't see eachother, thus allowing you to do your own thing.

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 11:50 AM
How would I find out if my TC has that. I bought it in november 2008.:)

There is a setting within my tc that says connect to a network using ethernet to extend the network or create a second network

I don't know whether to use my buffalo as the second router or the tc. I have plugged in the buffalo to the belkin (main router ) for the moment.

JGruber
Feb 26, 2010, 11:53 AM
How would I find out if my TC has that. I bought it in november 2008.:)

It might not have it, but if it did, it would show up in section show below in the SS.

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 11:57 AM
no i don't think that it does

dmmcintyre3
Feb 26, 2010, 12:11 PM
Just connect a ethernet cable to the wan port on the TC and you will have another private network.

belvdr
Feb 26, 2010, 12:13 PM
no i don't think that it does

FYI, you need to connect the WAN/Internet port of Router 2 to a LAN port of Router 1.

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 12:13 PM
the wan port being the one with the circle above it rather than the 3 with the double headed arrows? :)

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 12:15 PM
FYI, you need to connect the WAN/Internet port of Router 2 to a LAN port of Router 1.

router 2 only has lan ports, it has a dsl input port but the ethernet cable is too big. tc has 3 lan and one port with a little circle above it which i presume is wan

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 12:46 PM
when i go to the settings in tc there is an option to "connect to a network using ethernet to extend the network or create a second network" which is what i want so I click on that and then select "i want to create an additional network" but when it comes to the finish it just says none of the tc settings have been changed from what they were and so nothing changes.

ok so i have got it to change the settings but now tc just has a constant amber light and doesn't show up as a network or as a network drive

macgrl
Feb 26, 2010, 01:36 PM
Fixed it. How cool is that. I now have my own little network. yay.:) I have set it with wpa2 personal security so i am presuming that it will be the same as any other network with security settings. No one will be able to access it without permission

cpguru21
Feb 26, 2010, 03:53 PM
Fixed it. How cool is that. I now have my own little network. yay.:) I have set it with wpa2 personal security so i am presuming that it will be the same as any other network with security settings. No one will be able to access it without permission

Anyone have any thoughts on potential double NATing? I have never experienced an issue personally but I have been told that some services on lan (2) might experience some issues NATing through 2 routers? I believe most people that experience issues are playing games etc.

Anyone have thoughts?

PinkyMacGodess
Feb 27, 2010, 12:59 AM
It comes down to addressing and the subnet mask.

Run the main eithernet to the Belkin router's wan port and then run a cable from the Belkin to the Time Capsule's wan port. You can set the Time Capsule to only allow certain MAC addresses to connect as I remember. The Belkin should be on a certain subnet (say 10.100.100.x) and the Time Capsule should be setup for a 'New Network' and work on a different subnet like say 10.100.200.x. You could also set the Time Capsule up with another IP address range too if you wanted (like 192.168.x.x). It can use NAT and DHCP to handle access and addressing.

This kind of thing is done all the time... You do not want to bridge the connection as you would lose control on who/what connects.

A separate network needs a distinct networking address scheme and DHCP to make it easier to maintain. Then with NAT (Network Address Translation) the actual connection to the internet is managed. The Belkin provides an address to the Time Capsule and supports NAT-ing the internet connection conneting to it and the Time Capsule provides addresses to the devices that connect to it and provides NAT-ing to connect through it to the Belkin. They have to have a dissimilar enough network address scheme to avoid overlap. If you connect the Time Capsule to the Belkin through the Time Capsule's lan port, things aren't going to work like you want it to and it's a common mistake. Clear as mud?

PinkyMacGodess
Feb 27, 2010, 01:12 AM
Anyone have any thoughts on potential double NATing? I have never experienced an issue personally but I have been told that some services on lan (2) might experience some issues NATing through 2 routers? I believe most people that experience issues are playing games etc.

Anyone have thoughts?

IF the address scheme is separate enough, it will work. When you try to do overlays on the same addresses is where the trouble comes in. That and mixing up the ports. The second (and subsequent routers/AP's) MUST see the earlier network as a 'WAN'. Each layer MUST have a different address range for DHCP, and then obviously must have NAT enabled (usually by default).

I've seen networks where the AP's are all connected via their LAN ports and then people wonder why things don't work. You should only have ONE DHCP server per address range. I've worked on networks that had two and that made things an instant mess... (I've seen some pretty Rube Goldberg fixes in my day for bad setup decisions)

Apple's 'extend an existing network' basically turns off NAT and DHCP. Creating a new network uses NAT and DHCP and then the first network has to be on the WAN port. I connect through an Airport Extreme connected to another network. I actually have three AP's due to the size and construction of my house (freaking rebar and thick concrete walls). All are connected through their WAN ports to the main switch and all give different addresses via DHCP and NAT their own address ranges. Everything works great. Today's 'easy to use' networking equipment makes it easy to misconfigure your network...

It's not applicable in this case but you have to be aware that there is a limit for the 'hops' that a network connection can go through. You don't want to put to many layers or to many network routers between your computer and the internet... Each layer, depending on how it functions can add to a lag time and create a 'pinch point' in the connection speed also depending on how many devices connect to it and what they are doing/how much bandwidth they are using. That might be a concern depending on how the layers of the network are used. The farther from the main Internet connection you are in the layers, you might get less bandwidth (a measure of capacity/capability)...

cpguru21
Mar 15, 2010, 12:45 PM
:D


Thank you for the VERY informative and detailed response Godess ;)