Mac Pro PCI-E SSD Boot Drive

[-SD-]

Hello all

I'm looking for a PCI-E SSD boot drive for a 2009 Mac Pro. I'd like to leave the main internal drive bays free for four 1TB SATA drives in a RAID 10 array. I don't really need anything bigger than 32GB, 64GB at an absolute maximum. Just big enough to hold OS-X and the main applications I use.

I'd appreciate any recommendations for decent PCI-E SSD drives that are available in the UK.

Ta very much

:apple:

[300D]

There are plenty, but they all cost well over $1000 and are in the 512GB-1TB range. PCI-E SSD drives are aimed at studios that need extremely fast data transfer without sacrificing capacity or having to live with the latency or failure risk of multiple hard drives.

For only 32/64gb, there is no need to waste money on something so expensive. Just get a normal 2.5" SSD and stuff it somewhere out of the way.

[300D]

Here you go, mount a normal SSD (or two) in an empty PCI-E slot.

http://www.xpcgear.com/scythe-slot-rafter-2-5.html
http://atechfabrication.com/products/drive_mounting_kits.htm

[TheStrudel]

I'm more curious as to whether there are any that actually work with OS X at this point. I haven't heard of any that are, which is kind of a bummer.

[playalistic]

Just get a normal SSD and put it in the lower optical bay (if it is free of course)

http://macperformanceguide.com/Mac-InstallingSSD.html

[nanofrog]

I'm more curious as to whether there are any that actually work with OS X at this point. I haven't heard of any that are, which is kind of a bummer.
I haven't either. The Fusion I/O is supposed to get OS X support, but AFAIK, it hasn't happened yet.

So that leaves a SATA based unit, which can be located either in the empty optical bay or via PCIe bracket mount as already mentioned. It's even possible to stuff it other places via DIY using zip ties, ... but you do have to make sure you won't create a short where ever it's placed.

[7racer]

I'm thinking about doing this also...

I currently have 4 drives set up in a RAID with the Apple Raid card.

I really don't have a separate partition that is my "boot"...is there an easy way to do this without losing all of my data (it is backed up on a TC)

[nanofrog]

I currently have 4 drives set up in a RAID with the Apple Raid card.
Ouch. Not a good card.

I really don't have a separate partition that is my "boot"...is there an easy way to do this without losing all of my data (it is backed up on a TC)
Install the SSD, and then clone the OS and applications you want on the SSD. Then delete the OS.

Personally however, once the OS is cloned to the SSD, I'd wipe the array, and restore the data you want on it from the TC (gets the unwanted files off, as pulling the OS manually could leave "orphaned" files which consumes capacity needlessly).

[7racer]

Ouch. Not a good card.


Install the SSD, and then clone the OS and applications you want on the SSD. Then delete the OS.

Personally however, once the OS is cloned to the SSD, I'd wipe the array, and restore the data you want on it from the TC (gets the unwanted files off, as pulling the OS manually could leave "orphaned" files which consumes capacity needlessly).

HAHA thanks....I didn't know that when I bought it...its fine for what I do...but now wish had a better card, especially for that price premium.

[nanofrog]

HAHA thanks....I didn't know that when I bought it...its fine for what I do...but now wish had a better card, especially for that price premium.
It's an expensive card with too few features (single OS is a big one IMO) and too slow, even if it didn't have any flaws (namely the battery issue).

Combine them though, it's neither worth what they want for it, and it's certainly not trustworthy (especially if you're running RAID 5 without a UPS).

I realize you've already got it, but it would be in your best interest to get a better card (you can actually get a good 4 port card, including SAS functionality, for less money). Additional ports would cost more of course, but can still come in under what the Apple card sells for. At any rate, you can sell the Apple card off (eBay or Craig's List), and it might generate enough to completely pay for the new one. :eek: ;)

Even if you lose some cash in the deal, the security is worth it IMO.

[7racer]

It's an expensive card with too few features (single OS is a big one IMO) and too slow, even if it didn't have any flaws (namely the battery issue).

Combine them though, it's neither worth what they want for it, and it's certainly not trustworthy (especially if you're running RAID 5 without a UPS).

I realize you've already got it, but it would be in your best interest to get a better card (you can actually get a good 4 port card, including SAS functionality, for less money). Additional ports would cost more of course, but can still come in under what the Apple card sells for. At any rate, you can sell the Apple card off (eBay or Craig's List), and it might generate enough to completely pay for the new one. :eek: ;)

Even if you lose some cash in the deal, the security is worth it IMO.

I do have it as a RAID 5 but have an UPS.

What would you suggest? Currently I have 4X1tb in RAID 5. I don't have a lot of stuff on it, but it's my important stuff. Pictures, Final cut movies, business items etc...

I have the esata connect and an 2tb hook up to it as TM back up.

I have filled up my TM and was looking for other solutions...speed is nice...always like the fastest but not necessary.

If I purchased a new RAID card, I would lose the data correct and have to restore it?

How would you set up the system? SSD boot in the optical bay and the 4x1 in a RAID 5 with a Drobo as a TM?

[nanofrog]

I do have it as a RAID 5 but have an UPS.

What would you suggest? Currently I have 4X1tb in RAID 5. I don't have a lot of stuff on it, but it's my important stuff. Pictures, Final cut movies, business items etc...

I have the esata connect and an 2tb hook up to it as TM back up.

I have filled up my TM and was looking for other solutions...speed is nice...always like the fastest but not necessary.

If I purchased a new RAID card, I would lose the data correct and have to restore it?

How would you set up the system? SSD boot in the optical bay and the 4x1 in a RAID 5 with a Drobo as a TM?
You've a few choices.

If you want to stick with a 4 port card, you could get an Areca ARC-1212, and connect the HDD bays to it. I'm not sure of the system you've got, so you'd need an HDD bay adapter kit for an '09 ($165USD), or possibly an iPass extention cable ($90USD); both are from Max Upgrades. Use the eSATA for backups, but you'd need a multi drive enclosure (uses a Port Multiplier chip).

The other route, would be to use an 8 port card (say an ARC-1222), and get an external MiniSAS 4 disk enclosure + correct cable (future expansion and backups). In this case, you can use an internal port card only, and still make it work (just need the right cable, and run it out a PCI bracket).

I prefer the second method if you're starting from scratch.

Which ever way you're interested in, I can help you find the right gear (no links this time around, as I'd like more details as to what you want to do, and specific use would help).

Going to a new card would mean losing the data, as the array must be initialized on a new card, which will wipe any existing data. So a proper backup is necessary before proceeding with a card swap.

[7racer]

so you wouldn't do a SSD boot drive?

I have a Macpro 2.8 quadcore. I think that's the early.

I mainly make nonprofessional movies with final cut pro and work with some family pictures with Aperature/raw files.

So nothing super intensive, but just do not want to lose data.

Speed is a luxury, which I like...but not necessary. It's just nice.

I mainly use it as my "work horse" when I am ripping movies. I use it as my itunes library to stream to my apple tv and the rest of my house.

Typically I am on a macbook for internet/email and use "screen sharing" to run processes on the macpro unless it is something visual I need to do (such as final cut or aperature).

Thanks in advance for the help! I remember searching the forums before and got conflicting advice.

[300D]

so you wouldn't do a SSD boot drive?

No reason not to. An SSD is faster than any raid in latency and small file transfers, some can even rival a RAID in read throughput.

[nanofrog]

so you wouldn't do a SSD boot drive?

I have a Macpro 2.8 quadcore. I think that's the early.

I mainly make nonprofessional movies with final cut pro and work with some family pictures with Aperature/raw files.

So nothing super intensive, but just do not want to lose data.

Speed is a luxury, which I like...but not necessary. It's just nice.

I mainly use it as my "work horse" when I am ripping movies. I use it as my itunes library to stream to my apple tv and the rest of my house.

Typically I am on a macbook for internet/email and use "screen sharing" to run processes on the macpro unless it is something visual I need to do (such as final cut or aperature).

Thanks in advance for the help! I remember searching the forums before and got conflicting advice.
An SSD is fine for an OS + application drive, and figured you will use one (see post #8). Put the posts together, and it will work (including the cloning).

SSD = boot disk
RAID = data (possibly backup as well on separate drives)

eSATA = backup if the RAID card isn't used

[7racer]

An SSD is fine for an OS + application drive, and figured you will use one (see post #8). Put the posts together, and it will work (including the cloning).

SSD = boot disk
RAID = data (possibly backup as well on separate drives)

eSATA = backup if the RAID card isn't used


Awesome. Thanks....what would you recommend for brands for parts. You mentioned the ARC 1222. I would use that to connect to the SDD correct in the the optical bay spot? I assume I can use my current esata from the mother board for the back up? What mini sas enclosure would you recommend? Is it quiet?

[nanofrog]

Awesome. Thanks....what would you recommend for brands for parts. You mentioned the ARC 1222. I would use that to connect to the SDD correct in the the optical bay spot? I assume I can use my current esata from the mother board for the back up? What mini sas enclosure would you recommend? Is it quiet?
In an '09, I'd use the 2nd ODD bay and cable for the SSD (uses the logic board = ICH controller in the chipset).

Then use a RAID card to attach to the internal HDD bays (a $165USD adapter is needed for an '09 with any 3rd party internal port card; here (http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=189%20)).

As per card maker, I'd go with Areca, followed by Atto. Highpoint's RR43xx series is also a posibility, but the low cost is a bit of a misnomer in some cases, as they don't come with cables (Areca's do, which combined with the feature set and lower cost vs. Atto, is the best bargain for EFI bootable RAID cards). Fine for what you want to do as it happens (the Max upgrade kit has the correct end to plug into the card, and if you go with an 8 port card to take 4x drives external, you'll need a different cable that never comes with a card; kit only if it exists).

But Highpoint doesn't design or manufacture their own gear, so the support is lacking (it really sucks, especially getting the EFI firmware if you wanted to boot from it - you won't need this in your situation, just the OS X drivers to gain access to the card).

The ARC-1212 is a good 4 port card, and the ARC-1222 is the same unit with an additional port (handles 8x drives). There's also the ARC-1680 series that can offer additional features (i.e. some have faster processors - 1200MHz vs. 800MHz that comes in the 1212/1222, and can use a DIMM for cache, which allows you to upgrade it, and finally, this line also supports SAS expanders, but I seriously doubt you'd need this).

I'm not sure how heavy you are into FCP, but am under the impression that you do need throughput to improve workflow. But at 4x drives, this will be your limitation, not the card. Even then, I think the ARC-1222 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816151039) would be just fine, and it's less expensive.

For an external enclosure, I typically go with an Enhance E4-MS (http://www.enhance-tech.com/products/desktop/E4_MS_inter.html) (MS = MiniSAS). They come in silver or black BTW, and the silver version will match the MP's asthetics. ;) This is the cable you'd need (http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sas_cables_adapters/8887-1M.asp) (the length matters, so do NOT exceed 1.0 meter with SATA). Sometimes they're quiet, other times, not so much (it seems they get a wide variance in fan quality, which might be due to multiple suppliers). Fortunately, they can also be replaced for a quiet unit (Noctua or Noise Blocker would do well).

Sans Digital's TRX4 (http://www.sansdigital.com/towerraid/tr4x.html) is another one you could take a look at, and is comparable (also a silver model). I'm not sure about noise, and would expect to have to swap out fans in this one as well.

Ultimately, I'd go with what ever you can find that fits the bill for the lowest cost (I am presuming that asthetics are important to you, and have stayed away from the units available from pc-pitstop.com; they're ugly as heck, but less expensive and work).

Also note, that you need to use enterprise drives with Areca's RAID cards, and this is doubly important with SAS units (those mentioned are, as the SATA versions are actually more expensive). Check the HDD Compatibility List (http://www.areca.us//support/download/RaidCards/Documents/Hardware/HDDCompatibilityList.zip) (.pdf file). Personally, I use WD RE3's for primary arrays right now. Use the WD RE4-GB for backup disks (cheaper, and 2TB).

This would give you up to 8x drives to be used between the primary array and backups (split is up to you). As your capacity needs grow, you can eventually go to eSATA for backup, and it's not too expensive without the need to swap out the RAID card or buy additional enclosures for it, unless you require additional ports (12/16/24). It saves you money and aggravation in the long run (online expansion is your best friend to increase capacity :D). ;)

Hope this helps. :)

[7racer]

WOW!!!!

thanks a lot. Ok, this is going to be costly...

more than I expected. I also don't have compatible drives so would have to upgrade tho$e!

But THANK YOU. That gives me some direction. Where does the SSD plug into?

Thanks again.

[VirtualRain]

I would just use OSX software RAID 10. It's not like a dedicated RAID card is needed for RAID10... is it? It certainly is not going to add much value for the cost.

The SSD can easily connect to the SATA connector that's dangling in the 2nd optical bay.

[nanofrog]

WOW!!!!

thanks a lot. Ok, this is going to be costly...

more than I expected. I also don't have compatible drives so would have to upgrade tho$e!

But THANK YOU. That gives me some direction. Where does the SSD plug into?

Thanks again.
I'd still like to know exactly what you're doing, as I'm making stabs in the dark per se. I don't want to have you go spend more than you need.

If it's just music and video libraries, etc. (finished content you DL'ed, ...), you don't need to go this route. But if you're creating content (i.e. FCP), then it does make sense to do so, as I presume income is made from content creation.

There's a power + data cable hanging in the empty optical bay (it's a backplane connector; SFF-8482). The other ends are already attached to the logic board for you. :) It's as easy as it gets. :p

SFF-8482 Connector

[nanofrog]

I would just use OSX software RAID 10. It's not like a dedicated RAID card is needed for RAID10... is it? It certainly is not going to add much value for the cost.
10 is definitely doable with software RAID, and is a lower cost alternative, since the 7racer has drives on hand (3x for sure, possibly a 4th, though I don't know if this is in hand, or needs to be purchased). If more are needed, then a PM enclosure and eSATA card would be doable (Disk Utility can still be used over eSATA).

What I'm not sure of, is the content meant for the array, let alone the actual throughput requirement. So I'm concerned that the 7racer will buy a level of gear that's not really needed for casual use.

But if it's professional, then what was linked/recommended (i.e. suitable for content creation), then it's very applicable. The budget limits and mention of FCP have me thinking professional may in fact be the intended usage. But I need to be sure.

7racer, please do yourself an massive favor, and elaborate on the specific use so we can direct you to the right equipment.

[7racer]

ahh thanks for looking out for me...

My profession is medicine...not film. I make movies of me and my friends golf vacations and occasional epic journeys like the recent climb up Kilimanjaro.

I use to only have a Macbookpro. When rendering movies, I would basically have to leave my laptop alone for 8 hours before a 15 min movie was completed.

With the Macpro, I let it run and still have use of my laptop. But now...it's done in 20 mins.

I use the HD space for photos/raw and video. I use it as my itunes library for my apple tv.

I have not filled up the space on my current setup...so I am not in a need for more HD space. BUT I do need more room for my TM backup.

That's the practical aspect.

But like anything, I like the latest and greatest, fastest, etc...
Would like a faster system, but to be honest, the current one "seems" fast enough for my use. It would just be nice to have a SSD boot drive.

With that, I was looking for a backup solution....a cheap drobo with firewire 800 could do it.....It's not fast, but for backing up, should be fine?

BUT don't get me wrong, I appreciate your suggestions. It is helping educate me on some high end aspects that I was not even aware of.

[nanofrog]

ahh thanks for looking out for me...

My profession is medicine...not film. I make movies of me and my friends golf vacations and occasional epic journeys like the recent climb up Kilimanjaro.

I use to only have a Macbookpro. When rendering movies, I would basically have to leave my laptop alone for 8 hours before a 15 min movie was completed.

With the Macpro, I let it run and still have use of my laptop. But now...it's done in 20 mins.

I use the HD space for photos/raw and video. I use it as my itunes library for my apple tv.

I have not filled up the space on my current setup...so I am not in a need for more HD space. BUT I do need more room for my TM backup.

That's the practical aspect.

But like anything, I like the latest and greatest, fastest, etc...
Would like a faster system, but to be honest, the current one "seems" fast enough for my use. It would just be nice to have a SSD boot drive.

With that, I was looking for a backup solution....a cheap drobo with firewire 800 could do it.....It's not fast, but for backing up, should be fine?

BUT don't get me wrong, I appreciate your suggestions. It is helping educate me on some high end aspects that I was not even aware of.
From what you're indicating here, you don't need to go with a hardware RAID card at all.

Use software RAID (level 10 if you want redundancy, or 0 if you're willing to restore lost data from backups in the event of a failure). Backups can be done with a Drobo or an eSATA card and a PM enclosure (example (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/1394/USB/EliteAL/PerformanceRAID)). A 2 disk unit can be had inexpensively (it's a Port Multiplier unit when it only has one port for more than one drive). Here's a non PM 2 drive enclosure (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MESATATBEK/) for $60USD (2x bay can provide you with 4TB right now, and WD's Green Power drives are great for backups).

A level 10 would require 4x drives, and as it's on the logic board (software RAID = Disk Utility).

2 port eSATA cards can be had inexpensively as well (seriously, you can get SIL3132 card of of eBay for $13.47USD including shipping; here (http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Port-ESATA-SATA-II-PCI-E-PCI-Express-Card-SIL3132-6C_W0QQitemZ350168147392QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5187a5e5c0)). Drivers are available here (http://www.siliconimage.com/support/searchresults.aspx?pid=32&cat=3&os=3).

Now wasn't that easy? Now you know it won't cost you an arm + leg. :eek: :p

[7racer]

From what you're indicating here, you don't need to go with a hardware RAID card at all.

Use software RAID (level 10 if you want redundancy, or 0 if you're willing to restore lost data from backups in the event of a failure). Backups can be done with a Drobo or an eSATA card and a PM enclosure (example (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/1394/USB/EliteAL/PerformanceRAID)). A 2 disk unit can be had inexpensively (it's a Port Multiplier unit when it only has one port for more than one drive). Here's a non PM 2 drive enclosure (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MESATATBEK/) for $60USD (2x bay can provide you with 4TB right now, and WD's Green Power drives are great for backups).

A level 10 would require 4x drives, and as it's on the logic board (software RAID = Disk Utility).

2 port eSATA cards can be had inexpensively as well (seriously, you can get SIL3132 card of of eBay for $13.47USD including shipping; here (http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Port-ESATA-SATA-II-PCI-E-PCI-Express-Card-SIL3132-6C_W0QQitemZ350168147392QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5187a5e5c0)). Drivers are available here (http://www.siliconimage.com/support/searchresults.aspx?pid=32&cat=3&os=3).

Now wasn't that easy? Now you know it won't cost you an arm + leg. :eek: :p

hahahaha OK OK...too easy. Thanks a bunch.

just for my information. When you mentioned the SSD drive in the optical slot, i just connect it to the sata cable there? That's it???

[nanofrog]

When you mentioned the SSD drive in the optical slot, i just connect it to the sata cable there? That's it???
Yes. This attaches it to the logic board's SATA controller, and is the easiest way to have a bootable drive (no EFI compatible cards required). It happens to be the least expensive and easiest way to go. :D

[7racer]

Yes. This attaches it to the logic board's SATA controller, and is the easiest way to have a bootable drive (no EFI compatible cards required). It happens to be the least expensive and easiest way to go. :D

hahaha thanks!! Let me know where to ship the pizza and 6 pack!

thanks for ALL of the help!

[nanofrog]

hahaha thanks!! Let me know where to ship the pizza and 6 pack!

thanks for ALL of the help!
Pizza.... Yum. :D But I don't think it would do well in shipping.
Beer... Meh... not my favorite. Balvanie single malt scotch OTOH... :eek: But not with a pizza. :p

But you're welcome to treat yourself, as you're the one paying for the new gear and doing the installation work. ;) :D

[haravikk]

Sorry to bump this but I'm interested in bootable PCI-E SSD drives, but didn't see if any verdict was reached about one?

I currently have four 750gb hard drives in the internal bays of my early 2008 Mac Pro, in a RAID-0 (striped) software array, but I currently have it as a single massive volume which is also my start-up disk.

So I'm hoping to get a bootable SSD so I can have the OS and applications on the SSD, and user-folders/files on the big RAID drive. Then probably go all out and use a RAM-disk for /tmp and other hot-spots to avoid writing to the SSD too much (and since I have plenty of RAM for my needs so I can spare a bit).

I was hoping there'd be a good compatible PCI-E card for a single SSD, as while my lower optical bay is free I'm planning to get a Blu-Ray drive at some point as well, and installation for an SSD in that bay seems a bit unwieldy, plus with it using one of the spare SATA ports behind the main fan I'm not certain it would be bootable? I have an eSATA drive currently connected to one of those and although it's meant to be bootable OS X won't work from it.

Also, I'm hoping to run a boot camp installation of windows from the SSD, which is something I just can't do at the moment with the RAID array.


Lastly, to weigh on the RAID part of the discussion; I'd definitely just start with software RAID; installing most cards is expensive, and a massive hassle for usually very small gain at best. The Software RAID is actually pretty damned fast as it is for opening large files, so the main area you'd see improvement from a hardware RAID would be in small-files (which the SSD should cover the bulk of anyway), so in my opinion it's just not worth it.

I'm running a four-disk striped array and it's got huge capacity and high-speed. Of course there's no redundancy, but I have a pair of external USB drives in another array that is just as big, and which Time Machine can back-up onto.

[nanofrog]

Sorry to bump this but I'm interested in bootable PCI-E SSD drives, but didn't see if any verdict was reached about one?
For booting OS X, the answer is unfortunately No. :( They can boot Windows in a MP (been tried successfully with an OCZ Revo IIRC).

There's just not enough of a market (such cards would need EFI32 for 2006 - 2007 MP's, EFI64 for 2008 and newer, or EBC based firmware <runs in either EFI32 or EFI64, which allows a "one size fits all" approach>).

I currently have four 750gb hard drives in the internal bays of my early 2008 Mac Pro, in a RAID-0 (striped) software array, but I currently have it as a single massive volume which is also my start-up disk.
A stripe set definitely improves sequential throughputs (moving large files), but they don't improve matters for random access (what OS/applications use relies on).

So I'm hoping to get a bootable SSD so I can have the OS and applications on the SSD, and user-folders/files on the big RAID drive. Then probably go all out and use a RAM-disk for /tmp and other hot-spots to avoid writing to the SSD too much (and since I have plenty of RAM for my needs so I can spare a bit).
In terms of SSD's, the boot capability is to do with the SATA controller they're connected to, not the drive itself. So as the included SATA ports (ICH = I/O Controller Hub) are bootable in your system, just attach an SSD to one of the ports.

Please note, as you're interested in dual booting via Boot camp, use HDD bays 1 - 4, as the ODD ports won't boot Windows without a hack, which is somewhat complicated. Much easier to just use an HDD bay.

I was hoping there'd be a good compatible PCI-E card for a single SSD, as while my lower optical bay is free I'm planning to get a Blu-Ray drive at some point as well, and installation for an SSD in that bay seems a bit unwieldy, plus with it using one of the spare SATA ports behind the main fan I'm not certain it would be bootable? I have an eSATA drive currently connected to one of those and although it's meant to be bootable OS X won't work from it.
Then something's got to go external.

On the surface, it would appear to be cheaper to place the SSD externally. Unfortunately however, a bootable card under OS X is by no means common or cheap (I've only found one, and it's $400 USD). So you'd want to take the existing HDD stripe set externally. The easiest and cheapest way to do this, is to get a 2 port eSATA card that supports Port Multipliers (example (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/NewerTech/MXPCIE6GRS/)), and a 4 bay Port Multiplier enclosure (example kit (http://www.sansdigital.com/towerraid-plus/tr4mp.html) = card + enclosure). But there is a speed penalty for this (PM chips top out at ~250MB/s).

For additional speed, you need a 1:1 disk to port ratio. To do this, you'd need a 4 port eSATA card (cheapest I know of that works in a MP = here (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/DAT%20Optic/ESATAPCIE8/)), and either a 4 bay enclosure that has 4x eSATA ports on the back (these are getting hard to find as most, if not all have been discontinued, but here's an example (http://www.usb-ware.com/4-bay-sata-raid-kit.htm)), or 4x individual disk enclosures.

Either way, OS X can still operate these drives in a stripe set :D (backup the data first, as they'll almost certainly be re-initialized to create a new set on the new location = existing data will be wiped out).

Also, I'm hoping to run a boot camp installation of windows from the SSD, which is something I just can't do at the moment with the RAID array.
You cannot do this with RAID at all. Neither software or hardware implementations support this.

Lastly, to weigh on the RAID part of the discussion; I'd definitely just start with software RAID; installing most cards is expensive, and a massive hassle for usually very small gain at best. The Software RAID is actually pretty damned fast as it is for opening large files, so the main area you'd see improvement from a hardware RAID would be in small-files (which the SSD should cover the bulk of anyway), so in my opinion it's just not worth it.
For stripe sets, there's no need to go with a RAID card at all (small throughput benefit at best), and it's costly.

It's other levels, particularly those that aren't supported by OS X, that you require the use of a proper hardware RAID card (OS X is only good for 0/1/10 and JBOD).

[haravikk]

For booting OS X, the answer is unfortunately No. :( They can boot Windows in a MP (been tried successfully with an OCZ Revo IIRC).
Damn, that's unfortunate :(

A stripe set definitely improves sequential throughputs (moving large files), but they don't improve matters for random access (what OS/applications use relies on).
Yeah as I've found unfortunately! Luckily my small-file access demands aren't large, and I have the array set to large-ish stripe-size (128k if I remember right) which actually seems to help start-up speeds stay close to what they were with just the one drive. In-use the latency for small files is definitely observable, but since most of my use-case is large files (huge images or media files) the trade-off has been okay, but with Lion round the corner it's time for my OS launch incremental speed tweak :D

In terms of SSD's, the boot capability is to do with the SATA controller they're connected to, not the drive itself. So as the included SATA ports (ICH = I/O Controller Hub) are bootable in your system, just attach an SSD to one of the ports.
In that case then that probably means the non-brand company that makes my eSATA dock flat-out lied on their box when they said it supported booting, as my SATA to eSATA back-plate definitely supports it, but the dock doesn't, damn! But as you point out later it wouldn't matter for Windows anyway, damned infernal pernickety operating system that it is.

[Then something's got to go external.]

Please note, as you're interested in dual booting via Boot camp, use HDD bays 1 - 4, as the ODD ports won't boot Windows without a hack, which is somewhat complicated. Much easier to just use an HDD bay.
Hmm, I don't suppose there are any other solutions, for example, is it possible to power a hard drive from one of the two GPU power ports, or rather, does an adapter exist?

As I'm only using one of those ports then the spare one, combined with one of the two spare SATA ports could connect one of the four hard-drive bays, while a bit of trickery and maybe a heat-resistant plastic shelf in a PCI slot should give me room to connect the SSD into one of the iPass to molex connectors.

In theory at least, or is there an easier way to draw the power down? I suppose at that point I'd be just as well finding out how to fit it to the other optical bay and getting the Blu Ray drive externally instead, since that's starting to sound simplest.

It's other levels, particularly those that aren't supported by OS X, that you require the use of a proper hardware RAID card (OS X is only good for 0/1/10 and JBOD).
That's mainly what I meant, but even so for the cost of a card supporting RAID-5 you can just do what I did and get some big external drives to back-up onto normally, so you have the speed of striped at the trade-off of deferred back-ups rather than effectively instant ones. The hassle, expense and/or utterly terrible drivers (Highpoint-Tech and their pathetic excuse for a company springs to mind) just doesn't seem worth it even on the professional side of things. Better to just get a machine dedicated to massive storage, a fibre-channel card and just stuff your Mac Pro full of cache drives and be done with it.

[nanofrog]

Yeah as I've found unfortunately! Luckily my small-file access demands aren't large, and I have the array set to large-ish stripe-size (128k if I remember right) which actually seems to help start-up speeds stay close to what they were with just the one drive. In-use the latency for small files is definitely observable, but since most of my use-case is large files (huge images or media files) the trade-off has been okay, but with Lion round the corner it's time for my OS launch incremental speed tweak :D
The simple solution (to speed up OS and applications), is an SSD as a boot disk (gets around the lack of an EFI bootable PCIe Flash drive).

As per Lion improving matters, I wouldn't put that much faith in it, as disk I/O is still a major bottleneck for any computer (can be solved, but it takes hardware to get past what a single disk can do - SSD or HDD).

In that case then that probably means the non-brand company that makes my eSATA dock flat-out lied on their box when they said it supported booting, as my SATA to eSATA back-plate definitely supports it, but the dock doesn't, damn! But as you point out later it wouldn't matter for Windows anyway, damned infernal persnickety operating system that it is.
I expect they based it on a PC running BIOS and Windows.

The MP's firmware can cause limitations (most are boot related, but not all - there's been various firmware issues with MP's over the years; eSATA cards in the 2009 for example, and the inability to boot Windows off of the ODD ports in a 2008 is another - not a comprehensive list, but should give you an idea). And the inability to access the firmware directly makes matters harder (why some of these issues exist).

Hmm, I don't suppose there are any other solutions, for example, is it possible to power a hard drive from one of the two GPU power ports, or rather, does an adapter exist?
GPU power is +12V only. Disks and other peripherals use other voltages as well (i.e. +5V). Theres other voltages regulated by the PSU as well, but those are used by the boards.

I suppose at that point I'd be just as well finding out how to fit it to the other optical bay and getting the Blu Ray drive externally instead, since that's starting to sound simplest.
Something's got to go external.

There's options, including taking the optical drives external (I actually like this method <USB based 5.25" enclosure>, but it's not always that easy <finding a 5.25" enclosure> or cost effective to do). But if you're talking about a lot of drives, then it starts to make sense (i.e. there's 3rd party companies that specialize in MP accessories that allow for additional drives). MaxUpgrades (http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/) and TransInt'l (http://www.transintl.com/macupgrades/index.cfm) in particular (i.e. MaxUpgrades has a device that can allow for 8x SSD's in a single optical bay).

That's mainly what I meant, but even so for the cost of a card supporting RAID-5 you can just do what I did and get some big external drives to back-up onto normally, so you have the speed of striped at the trade-off of deferred back-ups rather than effectively instant ones. The hassle, expense and/or utterly terrible drivers (Highpoint-Tech and their pathetic excuse for a company springs to mind) just doesn't seem worth it even on the professional side of things. Better to just get a machine dedicated to massive storage, a fibre-channel card and just stuff your Mac Pro full of cache drives and be done with it.
Depends on what the user needs.

I totally agree on Highpoint being a waste of time and an equivalent to throwing good money down the drain (especially for RAID users), but Areca and ATTO are not (they make the fastest RAID cards out there, and they're also bootable under EFI). So if a user needs more than ~660MB/s in throughput (that figure is the bandwidth limitation in the ICH), or redundancy is needed, then a RAID card may be the way to go (DAS configurations).

SAN has it's place (multiple users - either mass numbers of them <database>, or fewer with very high bandwidth needs <i.e. video editors/animators>), but for a single user, it's not the right way to go. Setup a proper DAS, and be done with it. NAS too, but it has it's own limitations (good for low speed shared data amongst a few users/systems).

BTW, I like things like Fibre Channel and Infiniband... (me loves clusters and SAN :D). Unfortunately, they're also expensive as heck for independents and SMB's (I stress "S = small", as they usually don't have that kind of budget, even if it's truly what they need to be using).

[Tom Sawyer]

I would hope this will be bootable for OSX being developed by OWC:

http://eshop.macsales.com/NewsRoom/Framework.cfm?page=PR/ssdent_100710.html

[elvisizer]

yeah, i've been eagerly awaiting more news of that OWC drive. the press release is the only thing i've seen so far, and we're well past the 'early 2011' release timeframe they talk about in it.

[elvisizer]

BTW, I like things like Fibre Channel and Infiniband... (me loves clusters and SAN :D).
you should come up here to skysound for a visit, nano! we've got fibrechannel infrastructure out the wazoo for the protools cluster.

[nanofrog]

yeah, i've been eagerly awaiting more news of that OWC drive. the press release is the only thing i've seen so far, and we're well past the 'early 2011' release timeframe they talk about in it.
I'm sure there's a few others as well, including myself (expect they've hit some snags with it, and are still trying to iron it out).

you should come up here to skysound for a visit, nano! we've got fibrechannel infrastructure out the wazoo for the protools cluster.
As in Skywalker Sound (skysound.com)?

Pics please. I've stored up some extra drool... :D :p

BTW, need anyone to keep it running or better yet, find a way make it faster? ;)

[haravikk]

As per Lion improving matters, I wouldn't put that much faith in it, as disk I/O is still a major bottleneck for any computer (can be solved, but it takes hardware to get past what a single disk can do - SSD or HDD).
Oh I hold no allusions to Lion improving performance, moving the OS to the SSD is what will hopefully improve that, along with some extra RAM and clever use of RAM-disks for commonly used caches.

My computer is simply well overdue for being nuked and re-initilised fresh; I still don't know how I manage to bog my machines down so badly, but somehow I do! My point was though that since I'm waiting for Lion before I do that then I may as well hold off on setting up an SSD till then as well. I'm gonna have to set a day aside for all this, as I expect my Mac Pro's also overdue a spring clean to get out all the dust, and one of the fans has taken to giving off a high-pitched whine just to annoy me…


I think optical bay is where it's going to be at, it actually sounds easier than I first thought, as I already have cables for both of the spare SATA ports leading to my eSATA back-plate, but I only have one eSATA drive anyway so I can easily just route the cable to the optical bay instead. Then all I need is a splitter and a drive, I'm thinking that this SSD (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kingston-V100-SATA2-2-5inch-Drive/dp/B004BNT0OY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=computers&qid=1307392376&sr=1-2) ought to be plenty, as while my applications folder is huge I ought to be able to keep some of the bigger ones (games and the like) elsewhere, and I'll put caches and things into RAM-disks or onto the regular hard-disks as appropriate.

[Transporteur]

I'm gonna have to set a day aside for all this, as I expect my Mac Pro's also overdue a spring clean to get out all the dust, and one of the fans has taken to giving off a high-pitched whine just to annoy me…


I recommend a "self-service", meaning to run the fans on full speed for a couple of minutes via SMCFanControl or iStatMenues.
Blows out the majority of dust and makes annual cleaning sessions unnecessary if you do it regularly. I did this just yesterday and it fixed an annoying humming noise one of my Pro's fans made since last week.
Bloody carpet. :mad:

[elvisizer]

I'm sure there's a few others as well, including myself (expect they've hit some snags with it, and are still trying to iron it out).


As in Skywalker Sound (skysound.com)?

Pics please. I've stored up some extra drool... :D :p

BTW, need anyone to keep it running or better yet, find a way make it faster? ;)

i'll see if I can get some pics for you, nano, and PM you- I'm working at the other ranch (big rock) and the LDAC offices right now- sky sound is at the main ranch. They owe me some favors, tho, I just set up their PGP server for them and trained them on instadmg imaging.

[nanofrog]

Oh I hold no allusions to Lion improving performance, moving the OS to the SSD is what will hopefully improve that, along with some extra RAM and clever use of RAM-disks for commonly used caches.
Exactly. There are solutions, but they require hardware. But to keep the system cost down, it's not included in base models, and has to be added by the user as either CTO or via 3rd party upgrades.

My computer is simply well overdue for being nuked and re-initilised fresh; I still don't know how I manage to bog my machines down so badly, but somehow I do! My point was though that since I'm waiting for Lion before I do that then I may as well hold off on setting up an SSD till then as well. I'm gonna have to set a day aside for all this, as I expect my Mac Pro's also overdue a spring clean to get out all the dust, and one of the fans has taken to giving off a high-pitched whine just to annoy me…
Sadly, it's the nature of computers and more importantly, the software (keep adding more and more files that the system wants to index, and then there's other things like code bloat to deal with too...). :rolleyes:

I see it as a never ending battle.... Such as "WOOT! New computer!... 6 months later.... Dang this thing is SLOW!" sort of situation sound familiar? :eek: :p

BTW, I hope cleaning out the dust bunnies will tame the fan for you as it did for Transporteur.

I think optical bay is where it's going to be at, it actually sounds easier than I first thought, as I already have cables for both of the spare SATA ports leading to my eSATA back-plate, but I only have one eSATA drive anyway so I can easily just route the cable to the optical bay instead. Then all I need is a splitter and a drive, I'm thinking that this SSD (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kingston-V100-SATA2-2-5inch-Drive/dp/B004BNT0OY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=computers&qid=1307392376&sr=1-2) ought to be plenty, as while my applications folder is huge I ought to be able to keep some of the bigger ones (games and the like) elsewhere, and I'll put caches and things into RAM-disks or onto the regular hard-disks as appropriate.
The optical bay makes the most sense for internal expansion past the HDD trays. There are other 3rd party solutions, but they're limited as to how many disks can be added that way (product (http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2799&RequestTimeOut=500) I'm thinking of).

When you say splitter, do you mean for power?

As per the Kingston SSD, I'd search the forum for Kingston SSD's, as they may not have that great a reputation (seem to recall the didn't, though the recent TRIM Enabler application <has a thread in here somewhere...>, may solve the issues it had). Worth doing the research before you plunk down the cash IMO. ;)

If it doesn't seem like the best way to go, you could consider Intel based SSD's (http://www.scan.co.uk/products/80gb-intel-ssdsa2cw080g310-320-series-25-sata-3gb-s-mlc-flash-read-270mb-s-write-90mb-s-oem) (I know you can get them locally, but I'm not sure on the pricing falling within what you're willing to pay - there is a size discrepancy, as the Intel that best fits is 80GB <closest to 64GB>). OWC (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/internal_storage/Mercury_Extreme_SSD_Sandforce) is another alternative, and they will ship it to you (other UK members have bought from them in the past). Not sure what will be the cheapest way to go however. Wish I were better with sourcing gear in the UK, but I've only seen the sort of gear I need to locate (usually after RAID gear) from scan.co.uk.

i'll see if I can get some pics for you, nano, and PM you- I'm working at the other ranch (big rock) and the LDAC offices right now- sky sound is at the main ranch. They owe me some favors, tho, I just set up their PGP server for them and trained them on instadmg imaging.
:cool: Looking forward to them. :D

[haravikk]

I recommend a "self-service", meaning to run the fans on full speed for a couple of minutes via SMCFanControl or iStatMenues.
Ah, I completely forgot iStat Menus can do this, it's worth a try at least! The damned fan seems to be working just fine, but it seems to have specifically developed the most annoying sound imaginable just for any occasion that my graphics card is working that little bit harder than normal… heh.

When you say splitter, do you mean for power?
Ah yeah sorry, it looks like the kind I need (4-pin to one or two 15-pin SATA) is actually really cheap, I was expecting a lot more hassle but I suppose power-splitters are a lot more common than the more obscure data cables I've looked for in the past.

As per the Kingston SSD, I'd search the forum for Kingston SSD's, as they may not have that great a reputation (seem to recall the didn't, though the recent TRIM Enabler application <has a thread in here somewhere...>, may solve the issues it had). Worth doing the research before you plunk down the cash IMO. ;)
Thanks for the warning, I'll check that out! The other one I'm looking at is an OCZ Vertex (http://www.amazon.co.uk/OCZ-Vertex-2-5-inch-Internal-Solid/dp/B003NE5JCE/ref=pd_cp_computers_1) which has only a slightly lower capacity (60gb rather than 64gb, though given the way drives are measured they may actually be identical in size). I'll have a rummage around anyway, as I've never had any trouble with Kingston products before, but then SSD's are pretty new territory for me!

[edit] Actually, won't Lion have TRIM support built-in? So it might not be an issue, however the OCZ drive has pretty good numbers for read and write speed, I'll have to go hunt for reviews…

[nanofrog]

Ah yeah sorry, it looks like the kind I need (4-pin to one or two 15-pin SATA) is actually really cheap, I was expecting a lot more hassle but I suppose power-splitters are a lot more common than the more obscure data cables I've looked for in the past.
Every once in a while, you luck up and are able to use standard, inexpensive cables designed for use in PC's. :D

Thanks for the warning, I'll check that out! The other one I'm looking at is an OCZ Vertex (http://www.amazon.co.uk/OCZ-Vertex-2-5-inch-Internal-Solid/dp/B003NE5JCE/ref=pd_cp_computers_1) which has only a slightly lower capacity (60gb rather than 64gb, though given the way drives are measured they may actually be identical in size). I'll have a rummage around anyway, as I've never had any trouble with Kingston products before, but then SSD's are pretty new territory for me!

[edit] Actually, won't Lion have TRIM support built-in? So it might not be an issue, however the OCZ drive has pretty good numbers for read and write speed, I'll have to go hunt for reviews…
TRIM/garbage collection has been an issue with SSD's in Macs to date, but there's some issues Lion can't fix. Specifically, poor design (Bill Of Materials = parts selection - based on lowest cost, not actually tested properly for functionality) and Quality Control = high percentages of dud drives or those that fail quickly. This should come up when you research the drives (pay attention to various forums as well as the user review section of newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com/) - quite useful in terms of evaluating QC). BTW, actually read the newegg user reviews, as some will give 5 eggs due to newegg's return policy.

[haravikk]

Right, I think I'm going for either the OCZ Vertex 2 120gb drive, or the mostly identical 120gb drive from OWC. Also, I noticed this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Noiseblocker/HDC65/?APC=XLR8YourMac09) on OWC, which might solve my problem of installing Windows with Boot Camp, as while an SSD I believe is safe to leave loose in the optical bay, a normal hard drive is not.
However, with that adapter, I should be able to move one of my current, regular hard-drives into the optical bay, and just slap the SSD into one of the standard drive bays so that it'll be Windows bootable?

Also, the way my computer is set up it's awkward to open so I prefer not to do so if I can avoid it, so I just want to confirm that this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/2-Port-Splitter-Power-Cable-15-Pin/dp/B000S5F9VW/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I1PF4L8FKDHY37&colid=21VFY8LWE8A32) power splitter cable should be adequate for putting a hard drive in the optical bay of my early 2008 Mac Pro? I probably don't really need the split cable, but I figure I may as well not restrict myself in case I use it for something else in future, I just want to be sure I've got the right connections for actually putting it in, and will it be long enough?

It seems that I'm still in no rush as the current XCode doesn't appear to be Lion compatible for some mad reason, and with a few niggling bugs in the Lion GM release I might be waiting for 10.7.1 anyway.

[clyde2801]

Just get a normal SSD and put it in the lower optical bay (if it is free of course)

http://macperformanceguide.com/Mac-InstallingSSD.html

Please provide link to free SSD's ASAP.

[haravikk]

Please provide link to free SSD's ASAP.
SSD's, like any technology, are not free. Playalistic was talking about your optical drive bay; on a Mac Pro you get two, and most machines only come with a single superdrive, so the bottom bay can be used to produce space for up to two additional 3.5", or smaller, drives.

[yauzers619]

San Diego based Apricorn has a PCIe SSD Array.

http://www.apricorn.com/product_detail.php?type=family&id=71

Not the fastest SSD, but there maybe a way to self upgrade.

[clyde2801]

SSD's, like any technology, are not free. Playalistic was talking about your optical drive bay; on a Mac Pro you get two, and most machines only come with a single superdrive, so the bottom bay can be used to produce space for up to two additional 3.5", or smaller, drives.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor

[haravikk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettiquette

playalistic's post didn't imply free SSD's sufficiently to warrant posting about it in jest to point out confusion, and in a forum for hardware discussion and support making a post solely to be an ass isn't appropriate in the slightest.

If you have no advice to give about SSD's, PCI-E or otherwise, then kindly do not post.

[clyde2801]

I'm finding this thread terribly enlightening, and will continue to quietly follow it. It's gratifying to learn about the multitude of options available to the MP coming from a consumer mac background. Having an 09 SP, I'm contemplating an SSD in the optical drive bay (My God, talk about easy-peasey!) and possibly phillipma's quad nehaelm to six core westmere transplant, but think I'll wait to see if 10.7 changes the mix by interfering with the hacked TRIM or EFI software before I attempt either, or the latter certainly.

Oh, and one last little thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prig

I will now flagellate myself offline for daring to make a little joke in an internet forum. Next time, I'll post one of those little smiley doo-hickeys to show that it was not meant seriously. Lighten up, Francis.

[emunity]

Old Thread But Great News for MAc and PC Laptop Owners I know and trust this company and just bought this for my MAc Pro it boots up the hard drive a couple ways. In Mac hold down the option key and or once in MAc OS tell it to startup disk the external Sata (eSATA)

Worked 100% on my Mac Pro 2008 and this works on Laptops Mac and Windows

One catch its expensive but can go up to 6G WOOOOOOOOWs

http://www.firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-6g/

[I N E R T I A]

So, I can't do this with my 2008 Mac Pro, but since you have a 2009 model, and you're STILL up to get this PCI SSD boot drive on your Mac or if anyone else is curious about doing this, here's a card that will enable you to install any SSD into the PCI slots and actually use the drive through the PCI port, rather than the card just being a platform to hold the SSD somewhere:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SSD-Upgrade-Kit-Apple-Mac-Pro-OS-X-Bootable-SATA-III-PCI-Express-2-0-/130613074845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e69255b9d#ht_3203wt_1297

Remember, this card only works with 2009 or later Mac Pros. (really wish I had a 2009 model right now).

[wonderspark]

So, I can't do this with my 2008 Mac Pro, but since you have a 2009 model, and you're STILL up to get this PCI SSD boot drive on your Mac or if anyone else is curious about doing this, here's a card that will enable you to install any SSD into the PCI slots and actually use the drive through the PCI port, rather than the card just being a platform to hold the SSD somewhere:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SSD-Upgrade-Kit-Apple-Mac-Pro-OS-X-Bootable-SATA-III-PCI-Express-2-0-/130613074845?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e69255b9d#ht_3203wt_1297

Remember, this card only works with 2009 or later Mac Pros. (really wish I had a 2009 model right now).
$20 mark-up of this one (http://www.apricorn.com/products/desktop-ssd-hdd-upgrade-kits/velocity-solo-mac.html).
http://www.apricorn.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/v/e/velsolo_hires_connections_1_1.jpg

[haravikk]

Hmm, while the adapter looks good, I eventually just opted for shoving the SSD in hard drive bay 1, and moving the drive that was already there into my second optical bay. The cost of a 5.25" to 3.5" adapter, a SATA cable and a SATA power cable (from 4-pin power) didn't cost more than £20. For 2009 Mac Pros onwards you should only need the bay adapter since the connections are all there already I think?

The main issue I had was getting the SSD onto the hard-drive tray, as the screw spacing for 2.5" drives seems to be just that tiny bit different, so the tray wouldn't slide all the way in (only by one or two millimetres, but enough to stop the side panel locking). So I ended up having to spring an extra £8 for some thermal tape to hold the SSD to tray; a bit haphazard looking but a 2.5" SSD is so light that I half expect the SATA connection would hold there, but I don't really want to test that theory!

Anyway, this gives me a completely bootable setup that can also see the SSD used as a Bootcamp volume, bypassing the need for a PCIe card, as while it would have been neater overall, and I haven't really used my second optical drive enough to justify wanting to keep it inside, so I just moved my Blu Ray drive into optical bay 1 and now use that for everything. I have plenty of hard-drive space so I can just create a disk image in place of copying from one drive to the other :)

[Boomhowler]

don't know why apricorn states that the 2008 (3,1) model has 32Bit EFI, it has 64bit..