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nagromme
Sep 1, 2004, 04:12 PM
If you enter the Apple Store as an education INSTITUTION (not individual), you get cheaper Mac options without optical drives--like an eMac for $599.

But there's now a new bottom-end iMac model just for education too:

17"
1.6 G5
No optical drive
40 HD
GeForce 4 MX / 32 VRAM

Cheap G5 power to run off an Xserve :)

Dug this info up after a tip on forums.MacCentral.com.

nagromme
Sep 1, 2004, 04:16 PM
Snapshot attached.

applemacdude
Sep 1, 2004, 04:17 PM
Right, just like teh rumors from ThinkSecret or Appleinsider said (dont remember which)

kgarner
Sep 1, 2004, 04:35 PM
I'm in the Multimedia program at my school, and they are going ot be getting a whole lab of the new iMac G5s. I hope they don't get this model (I doubt they will, since we need the Superdrive and what-not). It would be a great system for high-schools and stuff though.

Bear
Sep 1, 2004, 04:46 PM
If you enter the Apple Store as an education INSTITUTION (not individual), you get cheaper Mac options without optical drives--like an eMac for $599.

But there's now a new bottom-end iMac model just for education too:

17"
1.6 G5
No optical drive
40 HD
GeForce 4 MX / 32 VRAM

Cheap G5 power to run off an Xserve :)

Dug this info up after a tip on forums.MacCentral.com.The main problem I have with the education version of the iMac G5 is the amount of video ram. That's going to kill the speed of some applications.

However, for some schools and situations, not having an optical drive is a good thing.

kgarner
Sep 1, 2004, 04:52 PM
The main problem I have with the education version of the iMac G5 is the amount of video ram. That's going to kill the speed of some applications.

However, for some schools and situations, not having an optical drive is a good thing.
It should only affect 3D programs. I think that anyone buying these for a school would (hopefully) know what programs are going to be run on them. If the class is a 3D class or a Multimedia class get the real thing. If you are setting up a lab for students to type their reports and check there email, who needs more VRAM than 32MB?

Bear
Sep 1, 2004, 04:58 PM
It should only affect 3D programs. I think that anyone buying these for a school would (hopefully) know what programs are going to be run on them. If the class is a 3D class or a Multimedia class get the real thing. If you are setting up a lab for students to type their reports and check there email, who needs more VRAM than 32MB?Actually it affects everything. Remember Quartz Extreme? It uses video ram.

It's just that on some applications it won't be really noticeable.

kgarner
Sep 1, 2004, 05:25 PM
Actually it affects everything. Remember Quartz Extreme? It uses video ram.

It's just that on some applications it won't be really noticeable.
I still ask why you need more than 32MB of RAM. Yes Quartz Extreme uses the GPU to do 2D and 3D. But it only requires 16MB on very old cards to take advantage of it. I thnk that, right now, the most GPU inntensive task I've seen that is Quartz Extreme is Expose and maybe the iTunes visulalizer. And the card they are including will run it fine. And remember, we are talking about computers for a school lab, not home use. They aren't going to be used for iPhoto, iMovie, games, or anything remote intense. Students who need those will have access to labs with appropriate equipment for it. We are talking about a system that will be used primarily for word processing internet, email, spreadsheets, and other basic functions.

realityisterror
Sep 1, 2004, 05:52 PM
it's actually not a very good deal IMHO, but i guess for a school, a few extra 100's can make a difference...

1) crappier video card with half the memory (not a big deal for schools)
2) half the hard drive capacity (ok if you are using xserve)
3) no combo drive (meh... can definitely come in handy...)
all these sacrifices for a mere $100? i wouldn't take it..

reality

Aaon
Sep 1, 2004, 06:07 PM
$100 may sound insignificant, but when a school is looking at buying one hundred machines, thats a savings of $10,000! That could be the deciding factor in buying or not buying the machine.

Aaron

nagromme
Sep 1, 2004, 06:23 PM
Obviously it's a special option offered for certain situations, not a mass-market be-all and end-all.

nagromme
Sep 1, 2004, 11:57 PM
Schools don't ALWAYS need a Combo drive on every machine. Sometimes it's actually desirable not to permit installing software or burning CDs. Admins do that over the LAN. So why buy an optical drive?

(I see that Apple offers an optional external Firewire optical drive with these too--something you could lock up but get out if needed.)

Elan0204
Sep 2, 2004, 01:07 AM
$100 is not a very significant savings considering what you lose for that money. While it is true that if you buy 100 iMacs you save $10,000, we are still talking about less than a 9% discount.

nagromme
Sep 2, 2004, 01:32 AM
Unless of course you don't want those things... and then you lose nothing.

If you want them, get the regular iMac of course.

I'm quite sure Apple has these BECAUSE schools have asked for them.

Sun Baked
Sep 2, 2004, 02:04 AM
Apple introduced the eMac because the LCD iMac couldn't compete pricewise with the old CRT iMac , and they still can't hit the price point the current eMac sits at.

Apple really doesn't want to keep low-margine products (look at all of them that they killed, CRTs/15" LCDs/etc.), yet that's where Dell is hammering Apple.

This new education iMac G5 is still too expensive, compared to the eMac and the Dells.

Macmaniac
Sep 2, 2004, 09:05 AM
CD drives just become another repair reliability in most schools, during my entire time in Middle School and High School I never used a CD drive, all the programs were already on the machine, besides most school techs don't install via CD they just re image machines over the network. If schools want power its not a bad deal. Except Apple should not have skimped on the GPU, imagine how much it costs to make a seperate mobo with that card, they should have saved the money and kept the same cards for the edu models.

Little Endian
Sep 2, 2004, 09:37 AM
I still ask why you need more than 32MB of RAM. Yes Quartz Extreme uses the GPU to do 2D and 3D. But it only requires 16MB on very old cards to take advantage of it. I thnk that, right now, the most GPU inntensive task I've seen that is Quartz Extreme is Expose and maybe the iTunes visulalizer. And the card they are including will run it fine. And remember, we are talking about computers for a school lab, not home use. They aren't going to be used for iPhoto, iMovie, games, or anything remote intense. Students who need those will have access to labs with appropriate equipment for it. We are talking about a system that will be used primarily for word processing internet, email, spreadsheets, and other basic functions.

You ask "Why would you need more than 32MB of Video RAM?" I bet you were saying the same thing about 8MB and 16MB video Cards. I guess you will find out in a year "Why you need more than 32MB of Video RAM" I wonder are you running Panther on that G4 of yours and if so do you still use it's Original 8 or 16MB Rage Card? How are things running for you?

Download this App and you will see first hand.

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/15566

Spock
Sep 2, 2004, 09:54 AM
You ask "Why would you need more than 32MB of Video RAM?" I bet you were saying the same thing about 8MB and 16MB video Cards. I guess you will find out in a year "Why you need more than 32MB of Video RAM" I wonder are you running Panther on that G4 of yours and if so do you still use it's Original 8 or 16MB Rage Card? How are things running for you?

Download this App and you will see first hand.

http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/15566

You know, QE is not compatible with the old Rage 128 from the G3 and G4.

wrldwzrd89
Sep 2, 2004, 10:23 AM
Actually it affects everything. Remember Quartz Extreme? It uses video ram.

It's just that on some applications it won't be really noticeable.
You bring up another point - Tiger's Core Image frameworks won't be fully supported on a system with a low-end video card (in today's terms) like the GeForce 4MX.

Little Endian
Sep 2, 2004, 10:24 AM
You know, QE is not compatible with the old Rage 128 from the G3 and G4. Yes I know that I was just trying to prove my point. Back when we had 10.1 and 10.2 Kgarner was probably thinking the same thing which is why anyone would need more than 16MB of RAM.

Abstract
Sep 2, 2004, 11:06 AM
I don't see your point.

Schools do quite well with less than that. Its always great to see a 64MB GPU working hard in a Highschool lab when they teach students how to use Filemaker Pro to make a crappy database. They screwed with the entire FileMaker Pro experience....ARGH!! :p

I think the labs would do quite well, even with a 16MB video card, although its nice to get something more usable. No iPhoto use, possibly some iTunes use (if songs are transferred over via flash drive), word processing, email...... do you actually think they need a better video card? I only have a 32MB Geforce 5200 on my rev B 12" PB, and I'm fine and dandy, so like others have pointed out, the school is saving some valuable dollars this way, plus they don't have to worry about the issues related to having a disk drive on board. They don't need it anyway, and if they do need it for a particular subject, they should know their needs better than you and get a regular one. At least now they have a choice based on their needs. The smaller HD was also a good idea, but they would have been fine even with a 30 GB HDD. They probably provide student storage accounts anyway.

Of course, Macmania also makes a very valid point (concerning Apple making a new mobo just to sell these edu iMac models, and I agree with him there as well.

nagromme
Sep 2, 2004, 11:27 AM
Lots of school labls are full of PCs with integrated video chipsets that a GeForce 4MX will run circles around.

Dreadnought
Sep 2, 2004, 12:24 PM
I'm in the Multimedia program at my school, and they are going ot be getting a whole lab of the new iMac G5s. I hope they don't get this model (I doubt they will, since we need the Superdrive and what-not). It would be a great system for high-schools and stuff though.

Could you please install folding on every one of them and help our Macrumors folding team?!

Le Big Mac
Sep 2, 2004, 12:36 PM
Unless of course you don't want those things... and then you lose nothing.



Right. Isn't treo (or someone) offering two versions of a cell phone, one with and one without the camera? Same price. If you really don't want, or can't have, a camera, you're not considering the lack of cost savings.

wPod
Sep 2, 2004, 01:18 PM
sounds like good deals for schools. i wouldnt get one b/c playing a video game on 32MB video memory stinks.(not to mention needing at least a CD drive to read the game) a word proccessing/e-mail/web lab at a school would be fine, especially since so many people now use thumb drives. the only thing tha would stink would be FCP . . . but wouldnt someone desiring FCP run that on a dual PM anyway?

nagromme
Sep 2, 2004, 02:26 PM
You also wouldn't get one because Apple wouldn't sell you one :) They're not available to the public. Not even students/teachers.

I do think it's weird that Apple even BOTHERED to change the GPU. I guess they know what saves them money, but I'm surprised that it would be worth it.

As for paying the SAME price for a Treo phone with or w/o camera... jeez, it should cost a little less! :)

slowtreme
Sep 2, 2004, 02:28 PM
If they can Downgrade the video processor, then they can UPGRADE it too!!!

nagromme
Sep 2, 2004, 02:30 PM
If they can Downgrade the video processor, then they can UPGRADE it too!!!

Yes. THEY can. And they will... future iMac revisions will see upgraded specs. But the GPU's soldered in. They MAKE them with the GPU of their choosing, but you can't upgrade it yourself.

Basically it's like a laptop that way--all part of making it compact.

slowtreme
Sep 2, 2004, 02:42 PM
But the GPU's soldered in. They MAKE them with the GPU of their choosing, but you can't upgrade it yourself.

You have seen the GPU in the new iMac? Many notebooks now use a standard GPU module card, and it's not soldered on.

I saw the picture of the open back, but could not verify that the GPU was part of the mainboard.

nagromme
Sep 2, 2004, 04:08 PM
I know it's soldered by report, but from seeing for myself. It would be cool if that weren't true, because third parties might make replacement boards even if Apple never would. But I really think we'd have heard loud and clear by now if the soldered-in part wasn't true. (And I'm sure the iMac doesn't have a standard size slot for retail GPU cards.)

spaceballl
Sep 2, 2004, 07:25 PM
The main problem I have with the education version of the iMac G5 is the amount of video ram. That's going to kill the speed of some applications.
uh. no it won't.

Little Endian
Sep 3, 2004, 07:12 AM
I know it's soldered by report, but from seeing for myself. It would be cool if that weren't true, because third parties might make replacement boards even if Apple never would. But I really think we'd have heard loud and clear by now if the soldered-in part wasn't true. (And I'm sure the iMac doesn't have a standard size slot for retail GPU cards.)

I am quite certain that Apple could have found a way to intergrate a standard sized removable AGP card inside of the 2" thick G5 imac if they chose to. If you think about it the Xserves are only 1.73 Inches thick and yet they manage to fit Two full sized PCI-X cards inside not to mention Dual G5's and Multiple Drive bays.

IndyGopher
Sep 3, 2004, 08:21 AM
I am quite certain that Apple could have found a way to intergrate a standard sized removable AGP card inside of the 2" thick G5 imac if they chose to. If you think about it the Xserves are only 1.73 Inches thick and yet they manage to fit Two full sized PCI-X cards inside not to mention Dual G5's and Multiple Drive bays.
Yup! And only two feet front to back!

Yvan256
Sep 3, 2004, 08:54 AM
A few thoughts about this new "edu iMac G5"...

- Wasn't the eMac released because CRTs can take a lot more beating than an LCD?

- isn't making a new motherboard version (lower GPU/VRAM) *more* expensive? Shouldn't the lower cost of the GPU/VRAM be wiped by the expense of making a different motherboard?

- does this mean the death of the eMac? Or will we instead see a eMac G5 soon? (to still offer a lower-cost option)

- does this mean a *huge* petition to Apple (like, 100k signatures with pre-orders or something) could lead to a "gamer-class" iMac G5? Not with an X800/256MB (way too expensive, it's mad) but at least something twice as powerful as the FX5200 Ultra and with 128MB instead of 64MB? Something that could play Doom 3 and World of Wacraft adequately (~30 fps, medium/high quality settings at the native LCD resolution) Or could a petition simply pressure Apple to put something better in rev.B? Or at least in the 20" rev.B? Or a yet higher model than the current 20"? To have 4 iMac choices? I'd pay an extra 200$US to get a very good GPU with 128/256MB (my Radeon 9600XT 128MB was fine for Doom 3 and should be fine for World of Wacraft too - but I'd rather flush the PC completely. A PC Tower, monitor, keyboard and mouse = wasted space (and lots more wires) if the iMac G5 can do decent gaming too).

Off-topic:
Will we see a mini-PowerMac G5 soon? (my specs would be single processor, same bus speed as big PowerMac, only one AGP slot (with nice BTO options/upgrades), no PCI/X slots, room for only 1 or 2 serial ATA HDs, combo/superdrive options, maximum 2GB RAM like the iMac G5. They'd have to make it this way to keep selling the big PowerMac (lower max. RAM and max. HDs) but it'd be fine for "power-gamers" and "pro users") Depending on the price of such beasts I think they could sell thousands! Oh, and make them with the same alu cases as the big PowerMac but with iPod mini color options (again, to differentiate from the Pro PowerMac models).

I want a blue one! :D

Edit: just read the edu page again. The crippled model has:
- GeForce4 MX/32MB instead of a GeForce FX Ultra 64MB
- no optical drive
- 40GB less HD

And it's only 100$ lower? A combo drive *alone* must be worth at *least* 100$ (at Apple's cost). What gives?!

imac9556
Sep 3, 2004, 09:00 AM
Umm, couldn't Apple just include a CD-ROM drive, DVD-ROM Drive, or CD-RW Drive? I mean, either of those 3 are soo cheap these days, and I don't understand why apple did that. Also, how would they be able to reinstall the OS?

spaceballl
Sep 3, 2004, 09:28 AM
I am quite certain that Apple could have found a way to intergrate a standard sized removable AGP card inside of the 2" thick G5 imac if they chose to. If you think about it the Xserves are only 1.73 Inches thick and yet they manage to fit Two full sized PCI-X cards inside not to mention Dual G5's and Multiple Drive bays.
It would be pretty awkward and custom considering that the LCD doesn't use a normal DVI or VGA port. It's hardwire to the graphics chip. So what if you put a graphics card in there... unless either Apple made some crazy internal connector for their monitor or you were running an external monitor, it would be useless.

slowtreme
Sep 3, 2004, 02:41 PM
It would be pretty awkward and custom considering that the LCD doesn't use a normal DVI or VGA port. It's hardwire to the graphics chip. So what if you put a graphics card in there... unless either Apple made some crazy internal connector for their monitor or you were running an external monitor, it would be useless.
http://www.nvidia.com/page/mxm.html

MXM: Mobile PCI Express Module Graphics Interface for Notebook PCs

That is all.

kgarner
Sep 3, 2004, 02:49 PM
http://www.nvidia.com/page/mxm.html

MXM: Mobile PCI Express Module Graphics Interface for Notebook PCs

That is all.
That would be great to see Apple implement in future designs. For now though it looks like they decided to stick with the AGP bus (not slot). However, it has been noted in other forums that they list the logic board as user replacable. Someone suggested that a 3rd party could offer a replacement with a better processor and video card down the road.

flyfish29
Sep 3, 2004, 04:00 PM
The main problem I have with the education version of the iMac G5 is the amount of video ram. That's going to kill the speed of some applications.

However, for some schools and situations, not having an optical drive is a good thing.

Yeah, and what would be best is to have a mac lab with no opticals except for a couple or just one that the teacher uses...since you can use idvd, etc on macs and burn on another computer this would work great. It is not only cheap but serves to help prevent things from being installed or used on computers in schools that teachers don't want the kids doing.

spaceballl
Sep 3, 2004, 04:28 PM
http://www.nvidia.com/page/mxm.html

MXM: Mobile PCI Express Module Graphics Interface for Notebook PCs

That is all.
Wrong. MXM is a proprietary system which uses the PCI Express datapath. However, it isn't a PCI express slot. It is a proprietary nVidia connector for low power, notebook graphics which they may be licensing. Apple putting laptop graphics chips in the iMac is a completely different story. But your concept as you had thought of it still stands as wrong. MXM doesn't mean people can just slap in PCI express video cards.

That is all.

Dr. No
Sep 3, 2004, 04:51 PM
Does it have AGP 8x?

Fukui
Sep 3, 2004, 06:10 PM
Schools do quite well with less than that. Its always great to see a 64MB GPU working hard in a Highschool lab when they teach students how to use Filemaker Pro to make a crappy database. They screwed with the entire FileMaker Pro experience....
Its sad but true. I've seen "perfectly good" computers that still have 8 megs of VRAM 300MHZ P2 and 64 Megs of ram... taking 2 mins just to log in... schools deal with pretty crappy hardware.

Though 999 for that iMac would be killer.

dieselg4
Sep 3, 2004, 06:13 PM
Apple introduced the eMac because the LCD iMac couldn't compete pricewise with the old CRT iMac , and they still can't hit the price point the current eMac sits at.

Apple really doesn't want to keep low-margine products (look at all of them that they killed, CRTs/15" LCDs/etc.), yet that's where Dell is hammering Apple.

This new education iMac G5 is still too expensive, compared to the eMac and the Dells.

Universities aren't buying 15" screens either (at least Carnegie Mellon wasn't), but I also remember someone telling me (this was in 2000, so its dated information) that the University got a better deal if they bought monitors with the computers. That sounded like a good idea, untill you have 19" CRT's in a lab that was already tight with 17" CRT's . . . .

ok that was off topic. nevermind

Macdantheman07
Sep 3, 2004, 06:44 PM
Just responding to some of the questions and rants about VRAM and RAM.

I believe apple will get away with putting crappy video cards and small amounts of memory in the iMacs because hopefully Tiger will be able to address and parse out 256mbs than Panther can. Core Image and Core Video will also take some stress off of the CPU and will make the GPU more efficient. 256mbs in tiger may be like 512-768 in Panther.

Just a guess.

slowtreme
Sep 4, 2004, 06:31 AM
Wrong. MXM is a proprietary system which uses the PCI Express datapath. However, it isn't a PCI express slot. It is a proprietary nVidia connector for low power, notebook graphics which they may be licensing. Apple putting laptop graphics chips in the iMac is a completely different story. But your concept as you had thought of it still stands as wrong. MXM doesn't mean people can just slap in PCI express video cards.

That is all.
I never suggested that the G5 iMac could have been built to hold a full size AGP or PCE gfx card. But they could have used MXM or the other one (dell uses a similar connecter in notebooks) to allow upgradeable gfx in a small formfactor card.

The link was to for proof of availibility.