New swiftvets against Kerry ad.

[Leo Hubbard]

http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/sellout.mov

I wonder how many votes this is going to cost Kerry. :eek:


The Real story. (http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/index.php)

[wordmunger]

What? Kerry said atrocities were committed in Vietnam? But I thought all our soldiers always acted with dignity and honor (http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444)!

[Krizoitz]

http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/sellout.mov

I wonder how many votes this is going to cost Kerry. :eek:


The Real story. (http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/index.php)

None, the only people who believe this garbage are the ones who are allready voting for Bush.

Those quotes have been taken completely out of context with what Kerry was actually saying. These people will do anything to hide the fact that George W. Bush has failed as President by trying to slander his opponent.

After four years why are they so intent on attacking Kerry instead of trumpeting Bush's achievments.

This is the same kind of garbage that Rove pulled against McCain four years ago and it sickens me to see them do it again.

If Kerry's medals were spurious then why haven't they been revoked? The Navy doesn't just hand them out like candy.

If Kerry is so bad for veterans then why have so many stood behind him?
Why has he done so much to further recognition of veterans including working to expand the GI bill for Vietnam vets. These guys have a huge political agenda and aren't out for the truth anymore than Michael Moore is. They just want to try and slander Kerry hoping that people will be foolish enough to believe their lies and half truths.

[Desertrat]

Hey, it's just Campaign Finance Reform at its finest! Think "527". Soros finances a lot of the anti-Bush stuff; rich Repubs finance the Swifties. The only thing that's changed is the restriction on what we once thought was our right to speak out within 60 days of an election...

'Rat

[Leo Hubbard]

Reminder, Bush didn't push this ad or any of the swiftvet ads. Soros financed moveon.org pac with millions of dollars, and some fabulously wealthy republican spend 300k on the swiftvets. Kerry helped them make the rest of their funds.

[mactastic]

Yeah there's a difference 'Rat. The SVBT ads contain actual provable lies, from people who can be proven to have perjured themselves because of their desire to see Bush win and Kerry lose.

Can you point me to any of Soros's groups that have either outright lied or perjured themselves this campaign season?

[Leo Hubbard]

Yeah there's a difference 'Rat. The SVBT ads contain actual provable lies, from people who can be proven to have perjured themselves because of their desire to see Bush win and Kerry lose.

Can you point me to any of Soros's groups that have either outright lied or perjured themselves this campaign season?
If they are provable lies then take them to court for slander.

Fact is they aren't provable lies. They are corroborated eyewitness accounts.

[Thomas Veil]

If they are provable lies then take them to court for slander.

Fact is they aren't provable lies. They are corroborated eyewitness accounts.
The Swifties know very well that they've taken Kerry's statement out of context. He's telling Congress about stories he's heard from other soldiers.

These super-patriots very conveniently forget about the My Lai massacre (http://www.vietnam-war.info/figures/william_calley.php)...not to mention other atrocities (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/10/20/vietnam_atrocities_revealed_in_report_boston_globe/) that occurred in Vietnam.


American Army Lt. William Calley (born June 8, 1943) was convicted on March 29, 1971 of premeditated murder for his role in the March 1968 My Lai massacre, a war crime committed during the Vietnam War.

Calley ordered the men of Charlie Company, 1st Battalion, American Division to shoot everyone in the village.

Calley was seen by some as a scapegoat for the Army's failure to instill morale and discipline in its troops. Nevertheless, despite having ordered his troops to commit a massacre, he ultimately received a light sentence.

He was initially sentenced to life in prison, but President Richard Nixon ordered him released from prison. Calley served 3 1/2 years of house arrest in his quarters at Fort Benning, Georgia and was then released in 1974 by a federal judge.

TOLEDO, Ohio -- An elite unit of American soldiers mutilated and killed hundreds of unarmed villagers over seven months in 1967 during the Vietnam War, and an Army investigation was closed with no charges filed, The Blade reported yesterday.

Soldiers of the Tiger Force unit of the Army's 101st Airborne Division dropped grenades into bunkers where villagers -- including women and children -- hid, and shot farmers without warning, the newspaper reported. Soldiers told The Blade that they severed ears from the dead and strung them on shoelaces to wear around their necks.

The Army's 4 1/2-year investigation, never before made public, was initiated by a soldier outraged at the killings. The probe substantiated 20 war crimes by 18 soldiers and reached the Pentagon and White House before it was closed in 1975, The Blade said.

William Doyle, a former Tiger Force sergeant now living in Willow Springs, Mo., said he killed so many civilians in 1967 he lost count.

"We didn't expect to live. Nobody out there with any brains expected to live," he told the newspaper. "The way to live is to kill, because you don't have to worry about anybody who's dead."
I particularly remember the Calley case, because it was a really huge story back then...and just like now, there were plenty of people desperately trying to deny the veracity of the story, calling the media liars, etc.

[zimv20]

to me this is so painfully clear:

kerry joined the military to fight for something he believed in, saw how broken the system was, then came back and spent the rest of his life trying to fix the system.

bush used the system to make up for failings at every level of his life. he has dedicated his life to preserving that system.

no wonder the GOP is scared.

[Leo Hubbard]

to me this is so painfully clear:

kerry joined the military to fight for something he believed in, saw how broken the system was, then came back and spent the rest of his life trying to fix the system.

bush used the system to make up for failings at every level of his life. he has dedicated his life to preserving that system.

no wonder the GOP is scared.
Actually he joined the Navy when he discovered he wouldn't be able to dodge the draft.

[wordmunger]

Actually he joined the Navy when he discovered he wouldn't be able to dodge the draft.
Even if this was true, how would it make him worse than successful draft dodgers Cheney and Bush?

[Leo Hubbard]

Even if this was true, how would it make him worse than successful draft dodgers Cheney and Bush?
I never said it would. I was just correcting a mistake in his quote. His argument was that Kerry voluntarily joined so that he could fight or whatever. When in reality he tried to dodge the draft with some French studies thing and was turned down.

[Krizoitz]

Actually he joined the Navy when he discovered he wouldn't be able to dodge the draft.

And your proof is...?

[IJ Reilly]

And your proof is...?

Proof? Who needs any stinking proof?

Kerry has said that he considered asking for a deferment, but when he was told he'd probably be drafted he decided to join the Navy instead, where he could serve as an officer. Once he was in the Navy, he requested active duty.

In his National Guard papers, Bush specifically declined voluntary overseas assignment.

[Leo Hubbard]

And your proof is...?
Fact is not to long ago the proof was on Kerry's own web site, but he seems to have taken it off. I think I posted on this straight from his web site before.
Its not there now.

Senator John Kerry, the presumed Democratic presidential candidate who is trading on his Vietnam war record to campaign against President George W Bush, tried to defer his military service for a year, according to a newly rediscovered article in a Harvard University newspaper.

He wrote to his local recruitment board seeking permission to spend a further 12 months studying in Paris, after completing his degree course at Yale University in the mid-1960s.

The revelation appears to undercut Sen Kerry's carefully-cultivated image as a man who willingly served his country in a dangerous war - in supposed contrast to President Bush, who served in the Texas National Guard and thus avoided being sent to Vietnam.

The Harvard Crimson newspaper followed a youthful Mr Kerry in Boston as he campaigned for Congress for the first time in 1970. In the course of a lengthy article, "John Kerry: A Navy Dove Runs for Congress", published on February 18, the paper reported: "When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1189211/posts



http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=352185
When he approached his draft board for permission to study for a year in Paris, the draft board refused and Kerry decided to enlist in the Navy. The Navy assigned him to the USS Gridley which between December 1966


Now if I didn't take the time to do the research, or that is reresearch of old facts because I don't keep a file cabinet of every link I've ever visited. I would be accused of lieing, deceitfulness, or being naive and believing everything the right expouses. But now that I did do the research, spent the time and trouble doing it, everyone going to say oh wow really and change their tune right? More likely they'll say, "oh well that doesn't matter, blah blah blah." So why bother taking the time gathering the proof for those who will explain away anything?

This news article also points out that Kerry wasn't in Vietnam until after November. :eek: But that just validated other already known data.

[Judo]

http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/sellout.mov

I wonder how many votes this is going to cost Kerry. :eek:


The Real story. (http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/index.php)

Leo.

Do you think it's important to ignore war crimes committed by US soliders in Vietnam?

[Leo Hubbard]

Leo.

Do you think it's important to ignore war crimes committed by US soliders in Vietnam?
No, I think Kerry should be tried in a court of law for them. :D

[Judo]

Fair enough Leo.

But from what other posters have said, the ad has taken Kerry's statements out of context and that he's talking about other soliders stories, not his own crimes. Actually no where in the Ad doe's it even suggest that these crimes where commited by Kerry.

I don't understand where these Vet's are coming from. They seem to be saying lets ignore any war crimes commited by soliders in Vietnam because it hurts our feelings.

What's your take on the Ad Leo?

[Leo Hubbard]

Fair enough Leo.

But from what other posters have said, the ad has taken Kerry's statements out of context and that he's talking about other soliders stories, not his own crimes. Actually no where in the Ad doe's it even suggest that these crimes where commited by Kerry.

I don't understand where these Vet's are coming from. They seem to be saying lets ignore any war crimes commited by soliders in Vietnam because it hurts our feelings.

What's your take on the Ad Leo?
Kerry was making unsubstatiated accusations against those he didn't even know, betraying his own, as his comrade in arms would put it. Kerry did say that "yes I too committed the same atrocities, burned villages, etc." In fact someone else cooroborated his testimony recently saying he burned a village himself, by himself, while others on other boats were yelling at him to stop. That is in the book Unfit for Command. He also fired a grenade into a food storage bin, receiving shrapnel and rice in his rear and getting a purple heart for it. Why would he destroy a villages food supply? Why would he think a non exploding shrapnel grenade would do it. Surely by then he knew the movies with their fire blazing grenades were full of crap.

[themadchemist]

The Real story. (http://swift2.he.net/~swift2/index.php)

You're deluded, irresponsible, or consciously trying to mislead people by posting that link with the text "The Real story." You know, because you follow politics, as well as I do that the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" organization slanders John Kerry.

I don't go around saying that George W. Bush conspired with terrorists to conduct the attacks of 9/11 so that he could save his faltering presidency...That's lunacy. However, I think Bush is a terrible person and an ineffective leader and I will rejoice when he loses (if he loses).

Similarly, you have every right to think that Kerry is a terrible person and an ineffective leader (though I will debate you to the end about it) and you can rejoice, too, when he loses (if he loses). However, that does not mean that you can propagate these malicious lies about Kerry, just as I should not propagate malicious lies about Bush.

Certainly, both candidates have questionable aspects of their records that may be questioned; this is not one of them. It has been clearly pointed out by both sides of the aisle that these individuals are simply telling falsehoods.

Don't call it "The Real story." It's sickening, to say the least.

[HeWhoSpitsFire]

You're deluded, irresponsible, or consciously trying to mislead people by posting that link with the text "The Real story." You know, because you follow politics, as well as I do that the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" organization slanders John Kerry.


call it "The Real story." It's sickening, to say the least.

ditto!

[wwworry]

Bush was a drunk until he was 40. Does anyone doubt that? Bush avoided active service. Does anyone doubt that?

Kerry volunteered. and saw combat.

All of Bush's businesses failed unless they got huge public funding or Saudi funding.

OK so we know Bush's youth was a failure compared to Kerry's. We know Bush's daughters are airheads and party girls - in their own words, "young and irresponsible". We know terrorism is up world wide. We know there has been the first net loss in jobs since Herbert Hoover. We know the US never caught Bin Laden. We know that govt. growth is the highest since the mid 1960's. We know that the the deficits are the largest ever.

What more does one need to know?

[pseudobrit]

What more does one need to know?

Maybe that John Kerry is a flip-flopper who only went to Vietnam to get medals and blew himself up with a grenade to get them but only got a scratch from the grenade and lied to get Purple Hearts and Silver Stars and was a total coward.

Oh, and he's rich, speaks French and his wife gives money to terrorists.

At least, those are the important things.

[~kilroy~]

Maybe that John Kerry is a flip-flopper who only went to Vietnam to get medals and blew himself up with a grenade to get them but only got a scratch from the grenade and lied to get Purple Hearts and Silver Stars and was a total coward.

Oh, and he's rich, speaks French and his wife gives money to terrorists.

At least, those are the important things.

Thats exactly why I'm not voting for him....:)

[wwworry]

maybe you are a flip-flopper, or as you say in french phlip-phlopeur. ;)

[solvs]

At least, those are the important things.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not because, sadly, it seems a lot of people think this way.

After all, why look at the mess Bush has put us into now when you can look at something Kerry did 30 years ago. Nevermind what Bush and Cheney were doing 30 years ago. They should take McCain's advice or else this will blow up in their faces.

At least Michael Moore had some facts in his smear film. :rolleyes:

[Neserk]

I"m not understanding what all the flap about Vietnam is. I thought it was generally well recongized that the war was a bad one. I for one was glad that Kerry and OTHER vets protested the war when they returned. Who better to recognize the evil of wars than an honest person who has been there? Seems to me the problem is a lack of integrity and psycholgical inability to deal with what was done in Vietnam. The same will no doubt happen post Iraq war. We are already seeing the problems come up with the Prison scandal. Do you think a normal person would do something like that to another human being or do you think the mitigating factor is a psychiatric break from the stresses of being in an unjustified war?

[IJ Reilly]

Quite a few people, even today, seem to think we should have poured more treasure and lives into the Vietnam War. Who was on the right side and who was on the wrong side of this issue? The judgment of history is hardly in doubt. This is the point Kerry needs to make in response to the Vietnam War protest question -- just throw it right back into the faces of the people who make these remarks. How many more Americans would they have killed? I think the American people really do understand this, though they might need to be reminded.

And, if it comes to it, I don't think he should be shy about saying that his opposition to the war was a function of his combat experiences, but that for some reason, George Bush's advocacy of the war didn't lead him to seek active duty. I think how they handled this time period offers a tremendous contrast on the differences in the personalities of the two men. It also moves the Vietnam and Iraq questions a little closer together, to where Kerry can comment on administration's handling of Iraq, and what he'd do differently as President.

[Neserk]

How many more Americans would they have killed? I think the American people really do understand this, though they might need to be reminded.

.


I think you are correct.

[Sayhey]

Here's a little story by some Swift Boat Vets about one of Kerry's principal accusers that probably won't make much of the big time media.

Now the right had seized upon the Vietnam War, too -- specifically the role, in uniform and out, of Sen. John Kerry. And to Means, it seemed just as wrong.

Means, a 55-year-old investigator for several Bakersfield law firms, was particularly annoyed by the words of one retired admiral. Roy F. "Latch" Hoffman, one of the co-founders of the pro-George W. Bush group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, had publicly criticized Kerry, a former Swift boat commander, for having brought back stories about alleged war crimes by U.S. forces -- often carried out, Kerry said in 1971, "with the full awareness of officers at all levels."

Seemed to him, Means said, his own Swift boat crew had come close to committing a war crime themselves one day. A senior officer, hitching a ride up the coast aboard their Swift boat, had ordered the crew to fire on a small group of unarmed Vietnamese fishermen working their nets in unrestricted waters, Means said. The boat's commanding officer had refused to comply.

Was that the way the boat's commander remembered the incident too, all these years later? Means had to know.

So he got on the Internet and hunted down Thomas W.L. "Tad" McCall, the retired Navy captain who'd commanded Means' boat, PCF 88, as a newly minted ensign. Means called him.

Not only did McCall remember the day in question, and that confrontation off the coast of South Vietnam, he remembered the name of the officer who had given the command to shoot: "Latch" Hoffman himself, then a Navy captain in charge of the entire Swift boat task force in Vietnam.
Bakersfield Californian (http://www.bakersfield.com/local/story/4918727p-4975095c.html)

Free registration required.

[zimv20]

wow

[Neserk]

wow


I second that.

[pseudobrit]

wow

Squeaky wheel gets his grease, eh?

[mactastic]

Whoops! Might have wanted to make sure your own record was clean of war crimes before accusing Kerry of committing them...

How many swifties does that make discredited now? At least 4 by my count.

[solvs]

Here's a little story by some Swift Boat Vets about one of Kerry's principal accusers that probably won't make much of the big time media.
Too bad the "liberal" media won't be talking about this much. :rolleyes: Did any of those swift boat people even know Kerry? At all? Did any of them have any contact with him in Vietnam what-so-ever?

[Krizoitz]

Here is my question. If this is such a big deal, why didn't it come up earlier? At the very least when he ran for the Senate, or was running in the primaries?

[mactastic]

Here is my question. If this is such a big deal, why didn't it come up earlier? At the very least when he ran for the Senate, or was running in the primaries?

Just to hazard a guess, I'd say because this is hurting Kerry in a major way among a demographic that is very different from a typical Massachusets voter. Also in such a small geographic area, it's easier to concentrate your damage control efforts. Arnold was effective at this in California during his election campaign, and California is huge compared to Mass.

[ocellnuri]

Yeah there's a difference 'Rat. The SVBT ads contain actual provable lies, from people who can be proven to have perjured themselves because of their desire to see Bush win and Kerry lose.



Exactly. I read an article where two Vetts have come public because thier names are on the letter from the "Swift Boat Vetts" even though they were either never asked for permission for use of thier name, or explicitly refused to support the group.

Someone called 12 of the people named in the letter, and 3 said that they either didn't know thier names were on the letter, or had refused to be included.

The Story: http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&tts=1&display=rednews/2004/09/01/build/state/25-swift-boat.inc

I can't believe people are giving these swift boat guys any credit at all.

[Leo Hubbard]

Maybe that John Kerry is a flip-flopper who only went to Vietnam to get medals and blew himself up with a grenade to get them but only got a scratch from the grenade and lied to get Purple Hearts and Silver Stars and was a total coward.

Oh, and he's rich, speaks French and his wife gives money to terrorists.

At least, those are the important things.
You forgot his brother ran for the President of france.

[Leo Hubbard]

Here is my question. If this is such a big deal, why didn't it come up earlier? At the very least when he ran for the Senate, or was running in the primaries?
I don't think that his platform when he ran for the Senate was "I was in Vietnam" like it is for his presidential run.

[Krizoitz]

I don't think that his platform when he ran for the Senate was "I was in Vietnam" like it is for his presidential run.

Atleast he went, unlike some President I can name who was AWOL from his draft dodging national gaurd service.

[AhmedFaisal]

Atleast he went, unlike some President I can name who was AWOL from his draft dodging national gaurd service.

He DID volunteer for Swift Boat duty. He could have just sat it out on a ship off the coast doing god knows what but he didn't, he decided to go to the frontlines. He may not have initially done his duty willingly but he came around and did in the long run, Bush NEVER did!
Cheers,

Ahmed

[Rower_CPU]

He DID volunteer for Swift Boat duty. He could have just sat it out on a ship off the coast doing god knows what but he didn't, he decided to go to the frontlines. He may not have initially done his duty willingly but he came around and did in the long run, Bush NEVER did!
Cheers,

Ahmed

http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2004_08_22_archive.html#109338012424943922

Swiftboats were a safe gig when Kerry first signed up - we don't need to perpetuate liberal spin any more than we need to do so with conservative spin.

[Sayhey]

http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2004_08_22_archive.html#109338012424943922

Swiftboats were a safe gig when Kerry first signed up - we don't need to perpetuate liberal spin any more than we need to do so with conservative spin.

Sorry, Rower, there was no safe duty in Vietnam. Spinsanity has it right that the Swiftboats were not as hazardous when Kerry originally applied for the job, but that hardly made them "safe." He did however, according to every contemporary report, perform heroically and at the highest level when given the new task. That may not be a reason to vote for him, but it sure as hell isn't a reason to slam his service.

I'm not much a fan of Spinsanity because they so often get caught up in trying to look "even-handed" they sometimes can't see the forest for the trees.

[Rower_CPU]

Sorry, Rower, there was no safe duty in Vietnam. Spinsanity has it right that the Swiftboats were not as hazardous when Kerry originally applied for the job, but that hardly made them "safe." He did however, according to every contemporary report, perform heroically and at the highest level when given the new task. That may not be a reason to vote for him, but it sure as hell isn't a reason to slam his service.

I'm not much a fan of Spinsanity because they so often get caught up in trying to look "even-handed" they sometimes can't see the forest for the trees.

Agreed that the term "safe" is relative - I'm just trying to point out that "volunteering for the front lines" is not entirely accurate, either.

[IJ Reilly]

Agreed that the term "safe" is relative - I'm just trying to point out that "volunteering for the front lines" is not entirely accurate, either.

If you were serving in the Navy during the Vietnam War, what duty would have been closer to the front lines than a tour on a swift boat?

[zimv20]

what duty would have been closer to the front lines than a tour on a swift boat?
running for president, apparently

[Sayhey]

Agreed that the term "safe" is relative - I'm just trying to point out that "volunteering for the front lines" is not entirely accurate, either.

I agree that the Swiftboats became much more hazardous after he volunteered for the duty, but as IJ points out it was indeed "front line" duty for the Navy. My guess is you would have to be a Navy Seal or pull some similar very specialized duty to get any closer to the front line of combat. Now, I'm with you that Kerry's campaign tries to do too much with his history in Vietnam. It is, however, what every war hero politician in the history of Presidential politics has done. I note that Kerry did not walk on water in the Mekong delta, but rather did what a lot of very scared young men did during that time - their best. The whole point is that he did serve with honor and the attempt to denigrate that service by his political opponents with calculated lies is beneath contempt. Especially since most of his opponents are people who combine the almost junkie like need to send other people's children into the line of fire with being very skilled at never having to brave it themselves.

[pseudobrit]

If you were serving in the Navy during the Vietnam War, what duty would have been closer to the front lines than a tour on a swift boat?

Perhaps a Naval Reserve unit in Texas?

[Thomas Veil]

I'm not much a fan of Spinsanity because they so often get caught up in trying to look "even-handed" they sometimes can't see the forest for the trees.
Don't know if I mentioned this before, but http://www.factcheck.org seems to do a wonderful job of separating the b.s. from the truth.

[mactastic]

From what I hear, their was a choice on the application form. One was to request stateside duty, the other was to be sent overseas. It is my understanding that one of the candidates chose overseas, and the other chose stateside as their request.

Any overseas duty qualifies as 'front line' IMO. Even being nearby is risky.

[IJ Reilly]

Yes, you can download Bush's actual form at mediamatters.org. The question is (paraphrasing) "Do you volunteer for overseas assignment." Bush checked the "no" box. In Kerry's case he sent a memo to his CO asking for swift boat duty. It's also available for download.

[acdninjapan]

From what I hear, their was a choice on the application form. One was to request stateside duty, the other was to be sent overseas. It is my understanding that one of the candidates chose overseas, and the other chose stateside as their request.

OK, we have 2 candidates for the Oval Office. Both served during the Viet Nam era, 1 actually went to the front lines the other stayed at home and played pocket pool. BIG DEAL!

What matters is the current occupant of the White House won't get off the sh***er and is turning your country into a Banana Republic.

I agree that this is a lousy deal–military service is just that MILITARY SERVICE–and just ask Woody's boy Arlo what he thought of military service...

[Leo Hubbard]

Yes, you can download Bush's actual form at mediamatters.org. The question is (paraphrasing) "Do you volunteer for overseas assignment." Bush checked the "no" box. In Kerry's case he sent a memo to his CO asking for swift boat duty. It's also available for download.
Where is that form 108 or is it 181? that shows that Kerry has agreed to release "all" of his military records?

[solvs]

Yes, you can download Bush's actual form at mediamatters.org. The question is (paraphrasing) "Do you volunteer for overseas assignment." Bush checked the "no" box. In Kerry's case he sent a memo to his CO asking for swift boat duty. It's also available for download.
If that's true, I have a newfound respect for the man. It wouldn't be such a big deal, if it weren't for the fact that 2 of the men responsible for us going to war in a country other than the one that attacked us, shirked their duties to go to a similar war. I wish my best friend had that luxury, before they sent him off to Iraq to fight in a war a large percentage of the country either doesn't believe in or doesn't know why we are there.

That's why it matters. I just hope Kerry can actually get us out safely, or I'll wind up feeling the same way about him that I feel about Bush.

[Leo Hubbard]

OK, we have 2 candidates for the Oval Office. Both served during the Viet Nam era, 1 actually went to the front lines the other stayed at home and played pocket pool. BIG DEAL!

What matters is the current occupant of the White House won't get off the sh***er and is turning your country into a Banana Republic.

I agree that this is a lousy deal–military service is just that MILITARY SERVICE–and just ask Woody's boy Arlo what he thought of military service...
One is a self admitted war criminal and as such belongs in jail.
The other is accused of being AWOL without enough proof to actually prove their case.

[IJ Reilly]

If that's true, I have a newfound respect for the man. It wouldn't be such a big deal, if it weren't for the fact that 2 of the men responsible for us going to war in a country other than the one that attacked us, shirked their duties to go to a similar war. I wish my best friend had that luxury, before they sent him off to Iraq to fight in a war a large percentage of the country either doesn't believe in or doesn't know why we are there.

That's why it matters. I just hope Kerry can actually get us out safely, or I'll wind up feeling the same way about him that I feel about Bush.

Here are the two documents:

Bush saying "no" to overseas duty (p 23):

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/3-Grade_Determination.pdf

And Kerry requesting swift boat assignment:

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Request_For_Swiftboat_Duty.pdf

Only a few months after Kerry says "send me," Bush said "don't send me."

[Leo Hubbard]

Here are the two documents:

Bush saying "no" to overseas duty (p 23):

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/3-Grade_Determination.pdf

And Kerry requesting swift boat assignment:

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Request_For_Swiftboat_Duty.pdf

Only a few months after Kerry says "send me," Bush said "don't send me."

'Bush and I were lieutenants'
George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air National Guard (ANG) from 1970 to 1971. We had the same flight and squadron commanders (Maj. William Harris and Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, both now deceased). While we were not part of the same social circle outside the base, we were in the same fraternity of fighter pilots, and proudly wore the same squadron patch.

If the 111th FIS and Lt. Bush did not go to Vietnam, blame President Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, not lowly Lt. Bush. They deliberately avoided use of the Guard and Reserves for domestic political calculations, knowing that a draftee only stirred up the concerns of one family, while a call-up got a whole community's attention.

The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th FIS, Texas ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air defense. It was focused on defending the continental United States from Soviet nuclear bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and would have been useless in Vietnam.


A pilot program using ANG volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace Alert) was scrapped quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to the war effort. Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about this program but was advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell, retired) that he did not have the desired experience (500 hours) at the time and that the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers.

If you check the 111th FIS records of 1970-72 and any other ANG squadron, you will find other pilots excused for career obligations and conflicts. The Bush excusal in 1972 was further facilitated by a change in the unit's mission, from an operational fighter squadron to a training squadron with a new airplane, the F-101, which required that more pilots be available for full-time instructor duty rather than part-time traditional reservists with outside employment.

While most of America was sleeping and Mr. Kerry was playing antiwar games with Hanoi Jane Fonda, we were answering 3 a.m. scrambles for who knows what inbound threat over the Canadian subarctic, the cold North Atlantic and the shark-filled Gulf of Mexico.

COL. WILLIAM CAMPENNI (retired)
U.S. Air Force/Air National Guard
Herndon, Va.5

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040210-082910-8424r.htm

He also gets into detail about how Bush never disobeyed an order, and how missing a medical by 30 days was common in the reserves.

[Krizoitz]

One is a self admitted war criminal and as such belongs in jail.
The other is accused of being AWOL without enough proof to actually prove their case.

Granted Bush is a war-criminal but when was Kerry AWOL?

[zimv20]

Granted Bush is a war-criminal but when was Kerry AWOL?
must be feeding time at the troll zoo. even Leo knows that kerry never said he committed war crimes, but he persists in saying that kerry did. what's the point, i wonder. facts are hard...

[Leo Hubbard]

must be feeding time at the troll zoo. even Leo knows that kerry never said he committed war crimes, but he persists in saying that kerry did. what's the point, i wonder. facts are hard...
Kerry said he personally burned down villages. :cool:

[acdninjapan]

Kerry said he personally burned down villages. :cool:

And people I know in the 1st Cdn Airborne Regiment cooked Somali technicals alive in Mogadishu and fed the meat to their POWs.The soldiers from the US Ranger and Delta force units killed 5,000 or more people in the few hours of fighting that took place that fateful day surrounding the downing of a blackhawk helicopter.

Taking part in a war makes you a witness and party to a great many atrocities. having the guts to admit to and atone for these atrocities is what makes you a compassionate human being.

Bush won't even admit that he has a Saddam voodoo doll that he sticks pins in every night or that he's an incompetant businessman who constantly needed to be bailed out by Daddy or people such as the bin Ladens and Cheney's of this world.

BTW wasn't Rumsfeld the guy that got the US involved in Viet Nam in the first place??

[zimv20]

apparently, LH said:
Kerry said he personally burned down villages.
yeah yeah yeah blah blah blah, so you keep saying. doesn't mean squat to me what you assert, 'cuz you make **** up.

find me a transcript of kerry saying it, like from an official record or something, and i'll have a look. otherwise, stop the ********. it's oh-so-very-tired.

[mactastic]

100+ ghost detainees would mean Bush is a war criminal, correct? Since it is a violation of international law to hold prisoners off the books...

[Leo Hubbard]

apparently, LH said:
yeah yeah yeah blah blah blah, so you keep saying. doesn't mean squat to me what you assert, 'cuz you make **** up.

find me a transcript of kerry saying it, like from an official record or something, and i'll have a look. otherwise, stop the ********. it's oh-so-very-tired.
Just watch TV 2 - 3 times a week Fox plays the tape of Kerry in front of Congress where he himself in his own voice states that he himself committed atrocities, free fire zones, burned villages, etc, etc, etc. A matter of fact Swift Boats latest ad has Kerry's voice admitting that fact too. All you got to do is turn on the tv.

[Sayhey]

apparently, LH said:
yeah yeah yeah blah blah blah, so you keep saying. doesn't mean squat to me what you assert, 'cuz you make **** up.

find me a transcript of kerry saying it, like from an official record or something, and i'll have a look. otherwise, stop the ********. it's oh-so-very-tired.

This nonsense comes from statements Kerry made on Meet the Press and The Dick Cavett Show not long after he left Vietnam. Here are quotes from the time.

War crimes by leadership policy, not personal atrocities
O'NEILL [to Kerry]: We have to deal with the moral question of war crimes. Coming back to this country and confessing, "I committed war crimes" and running for the Congress saying, "All three million of us committed war crimes," is exactly what he said.

Q: Did you see war crimes committed?

KERRY: I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense that I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that. However, I did take part in free fire zones and I did take part in harassment interdiction fire. I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these, I find out later on, are contrary to the Hague and Geneva Conventions and to the laws of warfare. So anybody who took part in those, is in fact guilty. But we're not trying to find war criminals. What we're looking for is an examination of our policy, particularly by the leaders, to examine the policy at the highest level.
Source: Debate with John O'Neill on The Dick Cavett Show Jun 30, 1971
...

US actions in Vietnam were counter to Geneva Conventions
O'NEILL [to Kerry]: Can you tell me about any war crimes that occurred in [our] unit, Coastal Division 11? I never saw anything, and I'd like you to tell me about the war crimes you saw committed there.

KERRY: Did you serve in a free fire zone?

O'NEILL: I certainly did serve in a free fire zone.

KERRY: [Reading] "Free fire zone, in which we kill anything that moves - man, woman or child." This practice suspends the distinction between combatant and non-combatant and contravenes Geneva Convention Article 3.1.

O'NEILL: Where is that from?

KERRY: Geneva Conventions. You've heard about the Geneva Conventions. Yes, we did participate in war crimes in Coastal Division 11 because we took part in free fire zones, harassment, interdiction fire, and search-and-destroy missions. [Didn't you] see huts along the sides of the rivers that were totally destroyed? You never burned a village?

O'NEILL: No, I never burned a village, that's absolutely correct. We'd never do anything dishonorable.
Source: Debate with John O'Neill on The Dick Cavett Show Jun 30, 1971

Objected to war policy while in Vietnam, and after
O'NEILL [to Kerry]: I think that you would have done something about it then. [You only complained when you ran] for Congress.

KERRY: The members of Coastal Division 11 when I was in Vietnam were fighting the policy very hard, to the point that many of the members were refusing to carry out orders on some of their missions; to the point where my commanding officer was relieved of duty because he pressed our objections. After I received my third wound, I was told that I could return to the US. I deliberated for about two weeks but I finally made the decision to go back because I felt that I could do more against the war back here. I requested that I be released from the Navy early because of my opposition, and I was granted that release, and I have been working against the war ever since then.

O'NEILL: I served in Coastal Division 11 for 12 months. I never saw any moral protest there. I think that the story Mr. Kerry has told is in large measure prevarication.
Source: Debate with John O'Neill on The Dick Cavett Show Jun 30, 1971

Vietnam didn't threaten US; US war crimes did
Many very highly decorated veterans have testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war.

We call this the Winter Soldier Investigation. The term Winter Soldier is a play on words of Thomas Paine's in 1776 when he spoke of the summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough. We feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of the crimes that threaten this country, not reds & not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.
Source: Winter Soldier speech to Senate Foreign Relations Cmte Apr 23, 1971

Vietnam war was criminal hypocrisy and tore apart US
There is nothing in South Vietnam which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart.

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from colonial influence. We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how monies from American taxes were used for a corrupt dictatorial regime.
Source: Winter Soldier speech to Senate Foreign Relations Cmte Apr 23, 1971

How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake
Each day someone has to give up his life so that the US doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say they we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? But we are trying to do that, and we are doing it with thousands of rationalizations.

We have come here to Congress, not to the President, because we believe that this body can be responsive to the will of the people, and we believe that the will of the people says that we should be out of Vietnam now.

The Marines say they never leave even their dead. [Our leaders] have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They have left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching in the sun.
Source: Winter Soldier speech to Senate Foreign Relations Cmte Apr 23, 1971

US soldiers committed atrocities in Vietnam, including me
Q: You've said that our policies in Vietnam are tantamount to genocide. Do you consider that you personally as a Naval officer committed atrocities in Vietnam or crimes punishable by law in this country?

A: There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search-and-destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, contrary to the Geneva Conventions, and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the US. And I believe that the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, are war criminals. [I](emphasis Sayhey)
Source: Interview on Meet the Press prior to Senate testimony Apr 18, 1971

Issues2000 (http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Kerry_War_+_Peace.htm)

Leo/Sly knows the context of Kerry's "war crimes admission" but he continues to distort the record. Anyone who knows anything about the Vietnam War knows about the policies of free fire zones, the Phoenix Program, the massive relocation of villages (and the burning of villages in order to stop support for NLF and North Vietnamese soldiers,) the carpet bombing, the defoliation and poisoning of massive amounts of land (the use of Agent Orange,) and on and on. These are the focus of Kerry's criticisms and, yes, he admits that like countless thousands of other soldiers and sailors he participated in carrying out policies that he later knew to be "war crimes." He never has said he personally committed any atrocity, far from it. He in fact says he never personally saw such an act being carried out, even though we know they took place during the war.

The purpose of Leo/Sly's continued statements trying to brand Kerry a war criminal and insinuate that he took part in atrocities is to continue the same kind of lies that the SBVT have put forward. It is unfortunate that outside these forums there are uninformed people who believe them.