building a PC - help please

[QCassidy352]

Ok guys, please don't flame me, but I would appreciate some help building a PC. :eek: It's not even for me - it's my roommate. His computer is 5 years old, and he has to have a PC because he needs to use PC only software. If you can't help without flaming, please don't post in this thread at all.

There are always people here saying things like, "Macs are so expensive, and I could build a kick-a$$ PC for $1,000..." Ok, well, this is your time to shine. :) Any help would be greatly apprecited. Where to buy parts, which part makers are best and which should be avoided... Basically, just anything you can offer. Many thanks.

edit: one other thing. He's going for value here... not the absolute highest end componants possible, but a good performer at a good price. It doesn't have to be a high end gaming rig...

[kant]

newegg.com is your friend.

EPoX mobo:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-123-215&depa=1

serial ata, usb2, onboard audio, onboard 10/100 lan

$57

I've used epox mobos for 3 or 4 years now. have only had problems with one board out of 20 or so.

Athlon XP 2600+ Barton retail pk
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-418&depa=1

retail package comes with fan, heatsink, and 3 yr factory warranty
Barton core is 333fsb with 512k l2 cache

$92

512mb Kingston DDR333

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-144-202&depa=1
Kingston offers a lifetime warranty through the factory.

$82

ATI 9550 Chipset Video card:
http://www.newegg.com/app/manufact.asp?catalog=48&DEPA=1

There are cheaper cards, but this chipset seems to give the best bang for the buck at the moment. The link is to the video card search page. select the ati 9550 from the drop down menu on the left and click on search. There are cards using this chipset in price range from $62-$95. You'll have to see which best suits your needs. For example: some come with DVItoVGA adapters, some don't.

variable, but lets assume the midrange of $78

Seagate 160gb SATA II hard drive
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-148-034&depa=1
Seagate went to a 5 year warranty on all their products last month. Guess they learned that I wasn't the only one who quit buying their drives when they went to a 1 year warranty.

$115. You can save money with a smaller drive, but the 160gb is the lowest $/gb at the moment.

Powmax case with 400watt powersupply
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-148-034&depa=1

$28

LG Electronics DVD-R/+R multi-format burner
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=27-136-038&depa=1
12x +R and 8x -R burning speeds. supports dual layer burning. I've been very impressed with LG electronics products lately. They've come a long way from their Goldstar origins.

$79

SATA power cable
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=12-104-555&depa=0
$2

That comes to $455 w/o a floppy drive or a second optical drive.

You can build one cheaper, by about a $100. This, however, is a good performing, 'best bang for the buck' type build. Minor variations could add maybe another $75 to it. For example, I would suggest spending another $17 on the memory chip and get the DDR400 instead of the DDR333. That way, if your friend gets a good deal next spring on a 3200+ Barton (currently $210 retail), the dimm won't have to be replaced.

Keyboard, mouse, and monitor are left for you to price. I never price those unless asked to - I assume that the customer can reuse they're existing units.

[QCassidy352]

wow, thats quite a lot of good information. Thanks so much. Still happy to hear from anyone else, too. :)

I don't know too much about AMD... how fast a processor is this?

[Timelessblur]

For the love of god NEVER and I mean NEVER use a cheap powersupply. a 28 buck case with a powersupply is just asking for trouble.

With PSU always go name brand because it kind of stupid to build a 1k+ computer and then try to save some money by putting in a cheap PSU because when a PSU goes out it normal takes a lot more stuff out with it. And a cheap PSU general delivers cheap profomecs and have a much higher chance of going out. (plus they dont handle the change of Power demands as well).

I would say go with the NEC 2510A burner. It a little cheaper and comes with some software.

I say for a graphic card get a 9600 pro or better. It is a good mid grade card and it not to much.
You are going to have to get a floppy drive if you want to put an SATA hard drive on the computer. a floppy is the ONLY way to install the drivers for it durning the install of windows and with no drives windows does not see the hard drive.

Also dont forget to get a copy of Windows XP OEM and you will want to get a copy of nortain OEM.
Also I would try to get an AMD 64 2800+ or a 3000+ with a 754 mobo.

for the PSU I would recomend a Antec True power. They come with built in SATA power connectors.

btw here is a good place to start for a list of parts for getting a computer for under 1k
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/guides/MVGSBG/article.php/3394901

[IJ Reilly]

Don't be embarrassed. I asked the same question on this board just a few months ago, and I got a lot of great advice. You might even want to search for the thread.

Here's what I ended up building:

AMD 2800+
ABIT NF7-S Mobo
Seagate 80gb (P-ATA)
Samsung Combo Drive
ANTEC case (350w PS)
ATI Radeon 9800 Pro
512 mb RAM
Logitech Keyboard & Wireless optical mouse

Total cost: around $830.00

I bought most of the parts from Newegg, which everybody seems to like. I had a positive experience with them too, but I was disappointed to find that although they are located in California (forcing me to pay sales tax) everything was drop-shipped from elsewhere in the country, so the parts took longer to arrive on my doorstep than I'd anticipated.

[IJ Reilly]

Forgot:

WinXP Home OEM

Doesn't come with much in the way of installation instructions. You may have to go into the BIOS settings to force the PC to boot from the install CD or the dumb box won't know it's the only bootable volume.

[tomf87]

For the love of god NEVER and I mean NEVER use a cheap powersupply. a 28 buck case with a powersupply is just asking for trouble.
<snip>
Also I would try to get an AMD 64 2800+ or a 3000+ with a 754 mobo.

for the PSU I would recomend a Antec True power. They come with built in SATA power connectors.


I'd agree on the power supply. I bought a SOHO file server case from Antec with power supply and it ran me around $80. I have never had a problem with Antec so I stuck with them.

As for the AMD64, I would caution you there, as Microsoft has a problem with XP SP2 and AMD64 CPU's. We had one blue screen already and are awaiting updates. In addition, spending more money on 64-bit parts now may not be to your advantage, depending on your use.

[QCassidy352]

Thanks for all the help thus far. Got a few more questions, though.

video card - It's looking like a radeon 9600 or 9800. But... I don't understand the differences between, say, a 9800, a 9800 pro, and a 9800XT. (or the 9600 vs. 9600 pro vs. 9600 XT) Should I be thinking of these as 2 different cards? Or 6 different cards? How severe are the differences?

also - what about a sound card?

Also - processor. Athlon XP 2600+ vs. Athlon 64 3000+. Is there going to be a big difference there? Is 64 the way to go at this point? (like G5 vs. G4 where one is acceptable, but one is the future)

[jimsowden]

Forgot:

WinXP Home OEM

Doesn't come with much in the way of installation instructions. You may have to go into the BIOS settings to force the PC to boot from the install CD or the dumb box won't know it's the only bootable volume.
Never, EVER pay for windows.

[musicpyrite]

Thanks for all the help thus far. Got a few more questions, though.

video card - It's looking like a radeon 9600 or 9800. But... I don't understand the differences between, say, a 9800, a 9800 pro, and a 9800XT. (or the 9600 vs. 9600 pro vs. 9600 XT) Should I be thinking of these as 2 different cards? Or 6 different cards? How severe are the differences?

also - what about a sound card?

Also - processor. Athlon XP 2600+ vs. Athlon 64 3000+. Is there going to be a big difference there? Is 64 the way to go at this point? (like G5 vs. G4 where one is acceptable, but one is the future)

The difference between say a 9800SE and a 9800 is that the SE has only 4 pipe lines in which data can travel through, the 9800 on the other hand has 8. (you can softmod the 9800SE to a 9800Pro, but I don't recommend it because 9800SEs tend to be made out of chips that already have pipe lines damaged) For your average person, internet, email, word processing, the 9800 is overkill, but if you do some gaming the 9800 right now is about middle of the ground as far as video cards go.

Sound cards aren't generally needed, usually onboard sound is fine. But if your friend is a huge sound buff, then yes you probably will need a sound card, or if your into heavy gaming, you should also get one. But remember, there is no point of getting a $100 sound card if you only going to use $5 speakers.

Since your budget is about $1000 then I'd try to push going to a Athlon 64 2800+ because 64 bit (socket 754) is the future, and socket A is already at it's maximum at 3200+

[boxerchip]

You should just buy my PC so i can get a second G5 :) its a 2.8 512 ram 9800 XT any hard drives you want :) if your intrested PM me or im me @chp540

or if you just want help you can also IM me ive built about 40 PCs

[boxerchip]

oh and as far as the 9600 9800 and 9800 XT the 9600 is clocked ALOT higher but only has 4 pixle pipe lines, the 9800 has 8 but is clocked lower, the XT is basically the gamers model you will get alot of software with it but the only difference is that the bios is different, it has the SAME hardware.

[QCassidy352]

oh and as far as the 9600 9800 and 9800 XT the 9600 is clocked ALOT higher but only has 4 pixle pipe lines, the 9800 has 8 but is clocked lower, the XT is basically the gamers model you will get alot of software with it but the only difference is that the bios is different, it has the SAME hardware.

I'm seeing that the Radeon 9800 128MB chip sells for $222 on newegg, whereas the Radeon 9800 (not pro, not XT) sells for $144. There has to be a difference... no?

Then there is the "Sapphire" 9800 Pro... the "gold edition..." There are 55 hits if you search for "Radeon 9800" on newegg! Pardon my ignorance, but how on earth can one sort through this? How and why are there seemingly dozens of versions (yet most are nearly the same) of the same card?

[friarbayliff]

newegg.com is your friend.


absofrickinlutely. Newegg is awesome - I would recommend it for just about everything.

[Timelessblur]

As for the AMD64, I would caution you there, as Microsoft has a problem with XP SP2 and AMD64 CPU's. We had one blue screen already and are awaiting updates. In addition, spending more money on 64-bit parts now may not be to your advantage, depending on your use.

I would not worry about that to much. Just make sure you dont turn on DEP for everything. The AMD 64 are faster than there CP equilent chips.

I been running trouble free with an AMD64 computer with SP2 since the day it came out back around 8/8

As for the guy you said never buy windows you are telling him to do something illiage and breaking the law. It on about the same line as lets say me asking for someone to give me a copy of Panthor or just downloading Panthor. Either way it is stealing. Plus having a legit copy saves you a huge amont of problems down the road

[sushi]

Athlon XP 2600+ Barton retail pk
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-418&depa=1

retail package comes with fan, heatsink, and 3 yr factory warranty
Barton core is 333fsb with 512k l2 cache

$92
I would suggest looking at the 2500+ vice the 2600+.

You can save a little scratch, $79 vice $92. Plus the 2500+ is great for overclocking. It is easy to get them to 3200+ levels.

Sushi

[sushi]

absofrickinlutely. Newegg is awesome - I would recommend it for just about everything.
Agreed!

TigerDirect.com is also good. You might want to check them out. They have some great deals at times as well.

And for those of us in Japan, who are spoiled beyond belief, Akihabara is superb. Around Japan you can also find Zoa, PC Depot and other stores where we can get great deals on hardware componenets.

Sushi

[OldManJimbo]

Other than the joy of building your own, why shouldn't this chap just purchase a previously owned PC from eBay or some other source?

[QCassidy352]

Other than the joy of building your own, why shouldn't this chap just purchase a previously owned PC from eBay or some other source?

mostly because now he is excited about building it himself... plus, you never really know what someone has done to a used PC. I mean... I know enough about macs to give a used one the needed cleaning and inspection... not so much with PCs. If they badly overclocked things and made them unstable or something like that, I wouldn't know what to do about it.

oh, and btw, he has already ordered the parts from newegg now... but just for my own curiosity's sake, can someone explain the 50+ flavors of Radeon 9800 to me?

[madoka]

I recently built my first PC:

- Antec P160 case $100
- Aspire 500w PS $55
- Asus motherboard $100
- AMD 64 3000+ $200
- NEC 2510 DVD burner $75
- Maxtor 250G HD $120
- Second Maxtor 250G HD $120
- Kingston PC3200 1 gig memory $150
- Sony Floppy drive $12
- ATI 9800 Pro $150
- Soundblaster ZS Gamer $75

So for a bit over $1200, you get a fairly high end computer: 3.0ghz computer with 1 gig memory and 500gig HD and dual layer DVD burner.

Notes:

1. Do not get the NEC 2510. Get the new Pioneer 108 or the new NEC 3500 instead. Not much more money, and they are much faster.

2. If you are confused with which 9800 Pro, just get the one ATI makes. They are the makers of the chip anyways. BTW, the latest games like Farcry and Doom3 can bring the 9800 Pro to it's knees.

3. 9800 Pros require a lot of power, so do not cheap out on the PS.

4. You'd still have to pry my Mac from my cold dead hands. :D

[madoka]

Agreed!

TigerDirect.com is also good. You might want to check them out. They have some great deals at times as well.

Sushi

Tigerdirect sucks @$$. They do not honor rebates and their customer service is poor. Go to any consumer site and learn the gory details.

In addition to newegg, I'd recommend Zipzoomfly. They seem to have prices within spitting distance of each other and their service is both impeccable.

[janey]

i second the good quality power supply unit post :p
it is so throughly weird and annoying when one of three things happen
1) power supply dies
2) power supply dies and takes some hardware with it
3) power supply cant handle the power needs of the hardware - stupid me, i used some years old psu i found in my closet for a new PC i was building, the stupid thing wouldnt even turn on and the thing just beeped at me. i went to fry's and got the cheapest one i could get my hands on, it died, i got a nice antec one and it worked like a charm.

you'd be doing yourself a big favor by buying a good one, saving money and time.

[justinshiding]

"
Since your budget is about $1000 then I'd try to push going to a Athlon 64 2800+ because 64 bit (socket 754) is the future, and socket A is already at it's maximum at 3200+
"

Not to nit pick...but if you want something that's going to be used for a while for the mainline 64 bit amd chips i'd go with socket 939 (recently released) it supports dual channel memory and the newer athlon chips...the 754 will be the line for low end (sempron) chips and single channel ram. only problem is that the lowest processor for the 939 platform is the 3500 + ...which is more than 400 dollars...

I think the 32 bit chips give my bang for the buck at this point...especially since the 64 bit issue wont really come into play for a while yet , and for a low end system...probably wouldnt matter.

[egor]

Egor's super fun happy tips...

If you're not going for 64bit, but have quite a bit to spend on a processor, go for a mobile athlon, it'll run cooler, at lower voltages, has the multiplier unlocked and is therefore the best athlon to go for if you want to overclock, and even if you don't want to overclock, its a good buy because you can run the heatsink fan low (and therefore, it won't sound like a hoover)

I'm in the UK, so quoting in pounds an AMD athlonXP2500+ mobile, with a barton core will cost you £70.44 whilst the equivalent non-mobile will cost you £58.69... so, in US dollars it will cost you an extra 20 bucks... which I think is well worth it considering it will run at a voltage as low as 1.45v

Also, I don't know if its been mentioned, but, if you go for the OEM windowsXP, here in britain you have to buy some hardware with it or they won't sell it to you, if thats the case in the states, remember to buy it when you buy your hardware and whatnot.

Someone mentioned getting the 9800pro that 'ATI makes', I'm not so sure on that, because I haven't seen any generic ones out there and also, I believe the 9800 cards themselves are actually manufactured by 'powercolour (or is it connect3d? I always forget...), it doesn't make too much of a difference which one you buy, but the two manufacturers I'd go for in particular would be Hercules or Asus, Hercules in particular seem to stick a good heatsink on their cards, as do Asus (I think...), altho I've only tried hercules. Right now I'm having difficulty finding 9800s which haven't had useless features added and been called 'the beast', along with their price ramped up to around £250 which is pointless considering you can get an X800pro for around that amount...

Also, I'd disagree completely that Doom 3 and Far Cry would bring the 9800pro to its knees, sure it will if you have it on a ridiculously high resolution, but it should cope fine even with most of the effects ramped up... heck, I know FarCry can run marvelously on my measly 9600XT (the extra pipelines on the 9800pro make it superior overall)

Hmm, I'm not being much help, I think I'll just leave it there and post this!

[Mechcozmo]

Go with an AMD. They are faster for general work, but they also do great for gaming. They have a shorter pipeline (aka, more work less time...in short)

I have an A7V600 motherboard, and it rocks! AGP 8x, gigabit ethernet built in, and more. Plus, there is room for a WiFi card that is made by ASUS. Neat idea. Oh, and did I mention that it is dirt cheap? Great too. Great for overclocking if you wanna do that.....

MotherBoard (http://www.asus.com/products/mb/socketa/a7v600/overview.htm)

Any Athlon processor that goes into a Type-A or Socket-A will work. I've got a 2500+ which runs at 1.833 GHz but its "Intel-equivalent" is 2.5Ghz.

I scavenged a lot of parts. Untill recently, my floppy drive didn't have a faceplate. I also pulled a SCSI card and CD burner that was SCSI out of an old, nonworking box. So, use that old box's parts to build the new one. Cuts the cash needed.

If you get a case...make sure it has front USB and/or FireWire. They come in handy.

What else...oh yea! Graphics cards.
Get an AGP card because they are faster. Go for the 8x AGP kind because they work faster with the motherboard. BTW, AGP 2x cards DO NOT work on this motherboard. That is because the volatages required are different for each kind of AGP (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x) and only 4x and 8x use the same connecter style. No biggie, cause a 128MB card is around 70 bucks at Fry's.
Video! (http://accessories.gateway.com/AccessoryStore/PC+Accessories_316441/Graphics+_A1_+Video_381951/Graphics+Cards_316685/AGP+Graphics+Cards_316688/2424968_ProdDetail?cm_ven=Google&cm_cat=Consumer&cm_pla=Froogle_CEAS&cm_ite=PNY_Technologies_Verto_GeForce_FX_5200_128MB_AGP_Graphics_Card)
That link isn't Fry's per se but it is the specs for the card. It has an S-Video out so you can hook it up to a TV. Nice feature. I have teh 64MB version of this card, and I love it. Remember that your eye can't see much beyond 30 frames per second, and so you don't need those amazingly powerful 1GB cards. :eek:
And remember.....SALVAGE! I built my box out of over half salvaged parts. The motherboard, RAM, and CPU were the only things that I bought. My buddy had an old case which I took, and that came with a power supply. I grabbed that SCSI burner as well as a normal ATA CD burner, and a floppy drive I nabbed because I like floppies! And I needed to take up that space where that damned plastic spacer fell out...

Good Luck! And remember...get it to run Basilisk II (http://www.uni-mainz.de/~bauec002/B2Main.html) or else I shall cure your computer. This IS a Mac site, not Windoze. ;)

[egor]

Aha! I've thought up one other thing to add, if you end up get a 9600 or variant do not use a via chipset motherboard, use an nforce one... why... cos a via one won't work, well, thats not strictly true, but I encountered probblems cos I bought a 9600XT (2D was fine... 3D crashed to desktop or made my computer restart after it had been running for a while...) and my asus motherboard was via and it turned out it was quite a common problem... personally I'm sticking to nForce from now on because of that experience, but thats just me being illogical!

And onto the most important element... Soltek motherboards come in a nice bright yellow or a purple! Altho there aren't any holes around the processor socket for mounting a water cooling system :mad:

Also, the Abit NF7 is pretty darned good, it seems very reliable, and also the first choice for overclockers from what I've read (they seem to be suggesting its been through many generations or something and the current version is fab...)

[Mechcozmo]

Aha! I've thought up one other thing to add, if you end up get a 9600 or variant do not use a via chipset motherboard, use an nforce one... why... cos a via one won't work, well, thats not strictly true


I have, as stated earlier, a mobo with the VIA KT600 chipset and type A7V600. Works great. You can change everything in the BIOS. I've OC'ed my Athlon to 2Ghz, but as soon as it didnt' wanna run anymore the BIOS auto flashed itself and it was back to what I was doing before, aka, Last-Known-Good. No stupid little jumpers. The 6 PCI slots are great, too. USB 2.0, SATA, everything. It is my favorite Windoze computer, because it dosn't look too much like a Windoze box. (aka, Mac OS X themes, yknow)

[egor]

I have, as stated earlier, a mobo with the VIA KT600 chipset and type A7V600. Works great. You can change everything in the BIOS. I've OC'ed my Athlon to 2Ghz, but as soon as it didnt' wanna run anymore the BIOS auto flashed itself and it was back to what I was doing before, aka, Last-Known-Good. No stupid little jumpers. The 6 PCI slots are great, too. USB 2.0, SATA, everything. It is my favorite Windoze computer, because it dosn't look too much like a Windoze box. (aka, Mac OS X themes, yknow)

Yes, but what graphics card are you using? I was pointing out that there's a curious problem with via chipset motherboards and radeon 9600s.

But there's a point, if you want to overclock without having the case open (so you can clear the CMOS everytime it gets fecked up) yeah, get a motherboard with the feature mentioned, so it reverts back to the 'last-known-good', I tell you its really annoying to pull a jumper out and put it back and turn on and turn off and pull it out and put it back again...

[Mord]

to explain the the first poster about what the difference is between the 9600 the 9600 pro the 9600 xt

they differ in core clock speed and the amount of vram

9600 128MB < 9600 pro 128MB <9600 pro 256MB < 9600xt 256MB.

beware of the 9800se it's crap is it's crippled by being a 4 pipeline card.

9800se (piece of poo) 128MB <9800 128MB < 9800pro 128MB < 9800pro 256MB < 9800xt 256MB

[Timelessblur]

I might like to add that the 9800se<9600pro<9600XT<9700<9700pro<9800<9800pro<9800XT to give you an idea how crapy the 9800se.
here is a 2 part list for rigs that an be built for under 1k including monitor
Price Roundup

AMD Athlon XP System

Case: Aspire X-Dreamer II (with 350W PSU) - $54
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Retail - $165
Cooling: included Retail HSF - $0
Motherboard: MSI K8T Neo-FSR - $83
Memory: 512-MB Corsair Value PC3200 DDR - $82
Hard Drive: 80GB Western Digital SE (8-MB) - $64
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon 9800 128-MB OEM (128-bit DDR) - $160
Monitor: Samsung 955DF - $185
Sound Card: 6-Channel Integrated - $0
Speakers: Logitech Z640 6-Piece Speaker System - $49
CD/DVD-ROM: AOpen COM5232 Combo Drive - $43
Communications: Onboard LAN - $0
Mouse: Microsoft Intellimouse Optical - $15
Keyboard: Microsoft Multimedia Keyboard - $15
Operating System: Windows XP Home - $84

Total: $999


Intel Pentium 4 System

Case: Aspire X-Dreamer II (with 350W PSU) - $54
CPU: Pentium 4-2.8E GHz Prescott (800) Retail - $177
Cooling: included Retail HSF - $0
Motherboard: MSI 865PE NEO2-PFS Platinum - $80
Memory: 2 x 256-MB PC3200 DDR - $82
Hard Drive: 80GB Western Digital - $56
Video Card: Sapphire Radeon 9800 128-MB OEM (128-bit DDR) - $160
Monitor: Samsung 955DF - $185
Sound Card: 6-Channel Integrated - $0
Speakers: Logitech Z640 6-Piece Speaker System - $49
CD/DVD-ROM: AOpen COM5232 Combo Drive - $43
Communications: Onboard LAN - $0
Mouse: Microsoft Intellimouse Optical - $15
Keyboard: Microsoft Multimedia Keyboard - $15
Operating System: Windows XP Home - $84

Total: $1,000

I got those list from the link below
http://www.sharkyextreme.com/guides/MVGSBG/article.php/3394901

[musicpyrite]

ahahah, this is a Mac forum, and when someone comes there asking about buying a Mac, you could hardly get 10 replies, but when they ask about building a PC, you get 30+ replies and not a single one is trying to flame the person. Just pointing out the irony. :)

[Mord]

it's because building a pc is more of a chore.

[egor]

to explain the the first poster about what the difference is between the 9600 the 9600 pro the 9600 xt

they differ in core clock speed and the amount of vram

9600 128MB < 9600 pro 128MB <9600 pro 256MB < 9600xt 256MB.

beware of the 9800se it's crap is it's crippled by being a 4 pipeline card.

9800se (piece of poo) 128MB <9800 128MB < 9800pro 128MB < 9800pro 256MB < 9800xt 256MB

Hang on a sec there. The 9600 pro and 9600xt aren't neccesarily 256mb, I'm running a hercules 9600XT 128mb, at the time which was not awfully long ago I could have had a connect3D 256mb but it turned out the memory was clocked lower or something... point is, well, um, I'm sure you get my meaning!

[Mord]

Hang on a sec there. The 9600 pro and 9600xt aren't neccesarily 256mb, I'm running a hercules 9600XT 128mb, at the time which was not awfully long ago I could have had a connect3D 256mb but it turned out the memory was clocked lower or something... point is, well, um, I'm sure you get my meaning!

i'm not to much of an expert on the ati range

my opinion: the 9600xt and the 6800gt are the two sweetspots.

[egor]

i'm not to much of an expert on the ati range

my opinion: the 9600xt and the 6800gt are the two sweetspots.

I don't know much about nVidia's range but I believe the 6800gt is comparable to the x800pro, not the 9600xt, the 9600xt is crap compared to both of them (altho still a good card for the money)