Defrauded of $1600 Powermac G5

[smharmon]

I sold a powermac (1.8ghz, 160gig, 512 ram) on ebay for $1600. The guy sent the money via Paypal, and I waited for it to clear into my checking account. He then asked me (on the phone) to send it to his work address, which I did. Then, 3 months later, paypal came back, and made my account negative by $1600. They said he did a chargeback against my account, and that I had to pay the money back. I gave them his phone number, his home (confirmed address that the number matched to), and the shipping address, the UPS tracking number, and they still initiated the chargeback. Not wanting to risk ruining my flawless credit, and a law suit (they threatened both via e-mail) I just paid the money this week.

Can anyone give me any advice on how I can proceed? I have the serial number off the unit, do you think apple will give me their contact info if the registered it?

Oh, and please don't flame me, I know I was stupid in not shipping it to a confirmed address, but the guy was nice, and I am nice, and I was trying to help out a customer. (yes it was dumb to do, I am just trying to recover the money now...) This is only one of about 25 high value items I have sold, and I am usually so careful. It has UPS insurance, but they deliver to addresses, and not people, and so they don't care.

And one more thing, if anyone lives in or around Cleveland, OH, and would check out the address for me, I would appreciate it. I could pay your gas or something, I am just strapped after giving $1600 back to paypal, (I hhad already bought a Powerbook with the $1600 I got from selling the G5)

[mikeyredk]

I sold a powermac (1.8ghz, 160gig, 512 ram) on ebay for $1600. The guy sent the money via Paypal, and I waited for it to clear into my checking account. He then asked me (on the phone) to send it to his work address, which I did. Then, 3 months later, paypal came back, and made my account negative by $1600. They said he did a chargeback against my account, and that I had to pay the money back. I gave them his phone number, his home (confirmed address that the number matched to), and the shipping address, the UPS tracking number, and they still initiated the chargeback. Not wanting to risk ruining my flawless credit, and a law suit (they threatened both via e-mail) I just paid the money this week.

Can anyone give me any advice on how I can proceed? I have the serial number off the unit, do you think apple will give me their contact info if the registered it?

Oh, and please don't flame me, I know I was stupid in not shipping it to a confirmed address, but the guy was nice, and I am nice, and I was trying to help out a customer. (yes it was dumb to do, I am just trying to recover the money now...) This is only one of about 25 high value items I have sold, and I am usually so careful. It has UPS insurance, but they deliver to addresses, and not people, and so they don't care.

And one more thing, if anyone lives in or around Cleveland, OH, and would check out the address for me, I would appreciate it. I could pay your gas or something, I am just strapped after giving $1600 back to paypal, (I hhad already bought a Powerbook with the $1600 I got from selling the G5)

YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE GIVEN THE MONEY BACK. NOW YOU HAVE NO RECOURSE YOUR SCREWED!!!!!

yes i was shouting

[agreenster]

Damn dood. That sucks. eBay is getting so shady that I dont think I would ever use it as a seller anymore.

How does this stupid chargeback thing work? I've never heard of that! Sounds like fraud to me. Im surprised PayPal isnt investigating this situation, but then again so many companies nowadays just figure a bit of abuse as par for the course.

I live about 6 hours I think from Cleveland, so I really cant help you out.

Good luck though, and make sure this gets rectified. You may have to get on the phone and do some major complaining, if not eventually calling the police.

I have heard of a situation similar to this before here at Macrumors a couple years ago, and the guy finally got the police to go to this persons house and got his computer back. I guess he was running a big scam with a lot of people.

BUST EM

[Mantat]

I know this sound stupid, but when threaten, never give money back. Its an admission of guilt! In their line of thought, if you are willing to give the money back, its because you know that you are wrong, very stupid way to think, but thats how they work.

All hope is not lost. Keep contacting them and call the police, they can probably give you some advices on what to do.


Keep us informed!

[rdrr]

PayPal is horrible... They don't "investigate", and basically take only one side of the story. If your PayPal account is secured by a credit card company you can use the Credit Card fraud investigation department to stop payment to PayPal. Gather up as much hard evidence you can and put it in a file. Email (archive it to a Zip disk if possible), UPS receipt and track information including who signed for it, original purchase of sale for the G5, ebay history as well as the buyers, and paypal history. Also write a written letter back to PayPal and tell them you are going to open up a case with the Better Business Bureau.

If you secured your PayPal account with you bank account, then you really won't have a way to reverse or stop the charge. But I suggest you at least pursue the BBB complaint.

Good luck.

[Mr. Anderson]

I have never heard of this chargeback - it would seem that if paypal got the money from the guy in the first place that it would require both of you to agree that the chargeback(return of the money) is valid....

When you find out more, post it....

Good luck,

D

[Mr. Anderson]

Here's the paypal description of chargeback -

go here, to the bottom of the page and hit contact us
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr

in the quick questions section, ask "what is chargeback" and you get this...

* What is a chargeback?

A chargeback is a credit card charge that has been rejected by the credit card holder, typically in cases where the credit card was stolen and used fraudulently. If you accept credit cards, in person or through PayPal, it is possible that you might encounter a chargeback from a buyer - just as a seller accepting personal checks might receive an occasional bad check. More...

What is the Chargeback Settlement Fee?

When you receive funds through PayPal, and the sender's transaction is reversed for any reason and you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy for that transaction, you will be held liable for the amount of the reversed transaction plus a chargeback settlement fee. You agree to reimburse PayPal from either your PayPal Account or by other means as described in the Payments (Sending, Receiving, and Withdrawing) Policy. More...

Why am I charged a $10.00 USD fee for chargeback settlement?

To cover the cost of processing chargebacks, PayPal assesses a $10. 00 USD chargeback settlement fee to sellers who are determined to be at fault for credit card payment chargebacks. More...

How do I resolve a chargeback complaint?

To resolve a Chargeback complaint, please follow these steps: Go to Transaction Disputes by typing https://www. paypal. More...

What benefits do I receive as a World Seller?

Seller protection for SPP (Seller Protection Policy) eligible transactions to UK and Canada buyers with confirmed addresses. Chargeback fee removal for SPP eligible transactions. Account management (if you don't already have it). More...


looks like the guy was scamming you, using a credit card and then canceling it... have you reported this to paypal and ebay? I'd talk to someone who is a supervisor the next time you contact them.

D

[smharmon]

Go to paypal.com, and read all about chargebacks, they can take the money whenever they want, really for any reason. They never let you know that when you sign up, but it IS buried in the TOS agreement. I have gathered the hard evidence, and sent it to paypal, they said they would
"investigate" and a day later they told me it was my fault... i had to give the money within 120 days or they lock your account, charge your credit card, or file a suit. I didn't want me credit ruined! (and by signing up with them, they can do all of that, without any more permission from you).

I called the guy, and he swears his credit card no. was stolen from the interenet, and it wasn't him, but his business address was 8 miles from the house he lives at (and the number I called matches that house number in the phone book). This guy has to be pro...

Oh, I have called, and talked to Paypal, they are very nice, but say it isn't there problem...

They also will not tell you the credit card company, and let you talk to them...

[smharmon]

I just stopped the payment to paypal, cleared out my account it would get it from, and paid off and cancelled the credit card that they have on file.


they won't be getting any money from me, as your guys suggested. I will prursue the matter further.

[Mord]

remember you are not in the wrong say you will only give the money back if you get your g5 back.

[Abstract]

That's it? That's the scam! It just seems so easy. I would think that PayPal or eBay has a way of preventing something so obvious.

I don't know if you should pay or not, but I don't see how PayPal can tell you that it's your fault. What is your fault, exactly? I don't get what they meant by that. Is it your fault that you got robbed and screwed over? Its your fault? It sounds like it should be their fault. Why go through PayPal at all if they don't offer you any protection in return? This "chargeback" issue is just a hole in their system, and now everyone who reads this thread knows about it and can do it themselves if they wanted. That's how simple a "scam" it is.

[kbonnel]

smharmon,

As you have found out from everybody here, paypal.com sucks! They really have no power over transactions. I purchased a cisco switch from a fellow, and it came down to me reversing the charge with my CC company because paypal.com could not do anything. Things may have changed since then, but I don't know. (I love how paypal wants you to use a checking/savings account for your payments... They know once your money is gone from there, you really don't have a way to get it back. With a CC, you have options)

I would suggest that you get as much information about the shipment of your G5. (i.e., the shipping receipt, who signed for it, tracking number, etc). This will show that you actually shipped an item (though you may have to prove it was a G5 :( ). Hopefully when you shipped it, you put on the paperwork that it was a G5 computer, or something like that. Even if this person's cc was stolen, they should be dealing with there CC, and not with paypal. (but I can understand by, as paypal will suspend your account (usually) if you contest a charge with your cc company)

Gather all emails, etc, of converstations you had with this person. And if needed, go see a lawyer!!!

What sucks about all of this is you will probably have to spend money to prove that you are not in the wrong.

What ever you do, do it fast. Don't sit around hoping that this will all go away.

Kimo
*NOTE: I am not a lawyer of any kind, but have gone through this before.

[JLS]

This very nearly happened to me when I was selling a mobile phone (with a £250 value). The money was credited to my account, and I asked my parents to post the phone for me the next day via Royal Mail. I got up the next morning to find paypal had taken the money back, I immediately phoned my mum.. who was in the post office! I was within seconds of loosing my phone and the money.

I hate ebay, I hate paypal. The only way you can stop this happening is by not using them.

[arilev]

I had a similar experience with Paypal when I sold some DVD's on ebay. Paypal had on file both my checking account and debit card (linked to the same checking account). I sold one disc for $16 including shipping and received the payment through Paypal right away. I transferred the money into my checking account and mailed off the disc. About a week later I see that Paypal has reversed the transaction and since I always remove any money I receive into my checking account right away I now owe them $16. Paypal gave me virtually no explanation for this and did not respond to repeated emails and of course the buyer's email address went dead. Since I couldn't get anywhere with Paypal I called my bank and disputed the funds. Sure enough the bank credited me $16 within the day. I was shocked when later that same day Paypal again withdrew $16 from my account. I don't know if they took from the checking account first or the debit card first but since they were the same bank account it didn't really matter. I got really upset and started researching my options. I suppose I could have removed the link to my checking account and changed my debit card on file with Paypal to a credit card with more protection and then tried again to dispute the charge with my bank but I read the horror stories of Paypal actually turning people over to collection agencies. I didn't need that over $16. I found that Paypal's seller protection is really just a set of guidelines that are supposed to help you avoid getting scammed. They do nothing when you actually do get scammed. It still bothers me, but all I could do was close my account so that's what I did.

Well I guess my post didn't offer much in the way of help and I know that my $16 loss is no match to your $1600 loss. Well good luck and let us know what happens!

[larry k.]

you guys are freaking me out as i have a powerbook for sale on ebay right now with a payment method of paypal. i sold an ibook on there before and not had trouble but now im getting nervous.

[smharmon]

Just take money orders only, or make sure you get proof you shipped to a confirmed address, and follow all the guidelines.

i have spend 2 30min sessions on hold with Paypal, and have yet to talk to a human being... in total I have spend about 4 hours over the past few months, and only spoke to a human once. And they weren't helpful.

[larry k.]

yeah i always only ship to verified addresses, i say that in my auctions and i make no exceptions.

i really hope you get yours straightened out. it bummed me out reading what happened to you, i cant even imagine how you feel.

[jeremy.king]

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/protections-outside

Funny, had you sent to the confirmed address, sounds like this would have been covered.

[smharmon]

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/protections-outside

Funny, had you sent to the confirmed address, sounds like this would have been covered.


Yeah, thanks, I think I made that clear in my opening thread... I know I made a mistake, and i said that. i am asking if anyone knows how I can save my butt, as i haven't given paypal the money. I almost did, but since the money wasn't out of my checking account, i transferred out all but $100 out so they will get an "insufficient funds" when they try. So, I just need to know what the forum readers think I should do. Oh, and shipping to a confirmed address doesn't fix everything. All they have to do is say the box was empty, and you still have months of problems.

[vikolaf]

Close your bank account and open a new one

[smharmon]

They said they are putting a collection agency on me... how bad would this hurt my credit rating? Is it worth flying out there, and beating this guy up?

[vikolaf]

The guy tried to screw you!!!
Call the cops!!!
:mad:

[JLS]

Yeah.. phone the police.

In the mean time, tell PayPal whats happened, and that you need to claim the G5 back before you will be returning the money.

Just DO NOT give them the money unless you have your G5 back.

[FlamDrag]

This could damage your credit rather significantly. What you need to do is call the police and try and track this guy down.

Sadly, I don't think that you have much of a choice at this point. Your credit rating (assuming it's good) is soooooo important. Your case is against the individual, not PayPal. Yes, they totally screwed you, however, they'll get their $1600 one way or another.

If you can find him, take him to Judge Judy, or People's Court or something. Your credit (again, if it's good) will help you here. Take all documentation, and receipts etc with you.

In short, you have to go after the scammer, not PayPal

Good luck.

** Also not a lawyer

[slipper]

what the hell are you thinking, dont ever do something until a check is confirmed. obviously this is a scam. theres been a chain of scams coming out of nigeria where someone would contact a car seller and send them a check. the check would be over the cars amout and he would ask you to send the remaining monies back before it actually clears. someone will pick up your car. and now your out of a car and broke.

contact the FBI
https://tips.fbi.gov/

[smharmon]

what the hell are you thinking, dont ever do something until a check is confirmed. obviously this is a scam. theres been a chain of scams coming out of nigeria where someone would contact a car seller and send them a check. the check would be over the cars amout and he would ask you to send the remaining monies back before it actually clears. someone will pick up your car. and now your out of a car and broke.

contact the FBI
https://tips.fbi.gov/


It wasnt a check...

[smharmon]

what the hell are you thinking, dont ever do something until a check is confirmed. obviously this is a scam. theres been a chain of scams coming out of nigeria where someone would contact a car seller and send them a check. the check would be over the cars amout and he would ask you to send the remaining monies back before it actually clears. someone will pick up your car. and now your out of a car and broke.

contact the FBI
https://tips.fbi.gov/


It wasn't a check, and i got the money, and spent it on a new powerbook... now Paypal wants it back. I waited a week for the money to clear into the bank, and shipped when it did. They then did a chargeback on me... and now want their money...

[Mantat]

I dont see how you rcredit rating could be more important than 1600$.

Banks never reject mortage, they may want to up to interest rate but even then, you can talk to them, negociate and get a normal rate.

The only situation where your credit would be very important is if you live on credit, which is a very very very bad thing (tm). Or if you are a home worker / have a business and use credit a lot.

If your cedit rating is so important, maybe it means that you use it too much! We currently live in a credit society, get now pay later.

Also, you can always call the credit agency and have your side of the story added to the files so anyone who read it would see your version.

As we all said, call the police, if you have all your proof, they will be happy to get that mofo in jail.

I was thinking about registering to paypal, I think your story totaly changed my mind.

[Sun Baked]

You "may" have to let the PayPal charge go a little sour to prove to a court that you have to really pay them back in order to clear your credit, because the buyer never paid PayPal in the first place.

Then start a civil case (in addition to any criminal case you file) against the guy in small claims court, and pay the money to have him served by a pro in the city he lives (you want to make sure the case isn't dropped due to failure to serve), then take all the stuff to the small claims judge and see if he shows up.

[Timelessblur]

I dont see how you rcredit rating could be more important than 1600$.

Banks never reject mortage, they may want to up to interest rate but even then, you can talk to them, negociate and get a normal rate.

The only situation where your credit would be very important is if you live on credit, which is a very very very bad thing (tm). Or if you are a home worker / have a business and use credit a lot.

If your cedit rating is so important, maybe it means that you use it too much! We currently live in a credit society, get now pay later.

Also, you can always call the credit agency and have your side of the story added to the files so anyone who read it would see your version.

As we all said, call the police, if you have all your proof, they will be happy to get that mofo in jail.

I was thinking about registering to paypal, I think your story totaly changed my mind.


well to exaplain why crietid is so imporanted is will effect you very heavy if you have bad crieted. short term the 1600 buck is good but long term you get a black market on you record for I think 5 years. Problem is that effedts getting loans,insureces or signing any contract (example cell phones.) Oh you can still get loans but you pay the price in higher interstes and that where you loose more money. or you get charge higher insureses rates due to it. I know if a collectoin agecty is after you some banks will not let you open a checking acount until it paid off.

I going to go with file crimal chargest agaist this guy and take him to court. You may end up breaking even which is the same as if you end up just giving hte money back to pay pal but a least you made that guy loose more money that 1600 bucks you may get you G5 back on top of that plus now he is lable as a fraud and will be dealing with fines, a really crappy crieted rating, and will have it on his permit record. He pay the price for the rest of his life. Prinpile of the thing will be there. so you may just be out 1600 bucks either way but at least you took this guy down with you.

Lastly contact a lawyer because this will not go away.

[jeremy.king]

Yeah, thanks, I think I made that clear in my opening thread... I know I made a mistake, and i said that. i am asking if anyone knows how I can save my butt, as i haven't given paypal the money. I almost did, but since the money wasn't out of my checking account, i transferred out all but $100 out so they will get an "insufficient funds" when they try. So, I just need to know what the forum readers think I should do. Oh, and shipping to a confirmed address doesn't fix everything. All they have to do is say the box was empty, and you still have months of problems.

Dude, you didn't comply with the terms, so you have no seller protection from Paypal. I know you already know this. Bouncing your refund to Paypal probably isn't a good choice either.

The only out you have is to pursue the buyer and get your $1600 now. But I would venture to guess if he was smart enough to con you with a stolen credit card and most likely a stolen identity, then he is smart enough to sell the same machine on eBay/pawn shop/here :eek: , so you will never recover your machine.

I'm not sure what answers you are looking for...but I do know that collections will affect your credit score. Repairing it back to an acceptable level takes years, I know from experience. Its taken me 4+ years to get my score back to 700, which still isn't perfect...

[smharmon]

Right now my rating is 750 plus... I have no idea how much higher it goes. It is flawless though... but I have no debt... I pay cash for my cars, and my college, and no credit card debt. I only have it on my house... I don't want this mess. I am giving the money to paypal, and calling the police, maybe I can get him in jail... That would be worth 1600 bucks!


Oh, and i don't think he stole an identity... I talked with the guy on the phone, and he told me he "was really enjoying his new computer," and I got screwed cause his "credit card company was taking care of it," I told paypal about all that stuff, and they didn't even care. He just shipped it to his buddies house I bet, as it is 8.1 miles from his residence. I can't believe that on all the internet, the guy that stole his identity was 8.1 miles away... (he claimed he gave his BRAND NEW credit card to an anti-virus company, and they used the number... He wouldn't admit to doing it, just kept making smart comments...

[Sun Baked]

Right now my rating is 750 plus... I have no idea how much higher it goes. It is flawless though... but I have no debt... I pay cash for my cars, and my college, and no credit card debt. I only have it on my house... I don't want this mess. I am giving the money to paypal, and calling the police, maybe I can get him in jail... That would be worth 1600 bucks!Don't forget to file a small claims case against him...

If you win that, you really can make his life a living hell -- if you win.

And since this was a deliberate act to defraud you, it's likely that he won't be able to discharge this debt even with a bankruptcy (since the Supreme Court Kawaauhau v. Geiger case would probably apply -- debts arising from "willful and malicious injury by the debtor" are not dischargeable in bankruptcy.)

And if you hound him enough, by seizing any money he ever places in a bank account and garnishing his wages -- he'll probably try a bankruptcy.

[AppleMatt]

If this happened to me, I would immediately do three things;

- Goto the bank and close the account fully. Don't leave a penny in there. Usually they get uppity about this so ask to speak to the manager, and use that opportunity to leverage the situation. They deal with fraud all day every day, and will be able to give you invaluable information on who to contact and what to do. They won't be able to solve it for you, but you could well walk out with the information you need for free. Go there in person.

- Contact the police, and get a crime number for it.

- Contact a lawyer. If only for a one-hour consultation, he may well give you everything you need to resolve this. If you hired him, PayPal would take notice.

I don't want to sound harsh but you need to move. Reducing the funds in your account and posting here isn't enough. Don't ring him again.

AppleMatt

[Badradio]

If you have the guy's number, the police can trace him to an address. PayPal will have records of the transaction and the cancellation, plus the phone company will have a log of the phone calls you made to him. It's not much, but I reckon there's enough there to at least have the police take you seriously if you make a complaint. I don't want to give any specific advice, as I don't know the US legal system too well and might just be wasting your time, but putting some legal pressure on might pay off. You're sweating your good credit rating against $1600; if you were him, considering a $1600 computer against the chance of a fine/criminal record/jail time if he has previous... I just think you have to be the "good" guy here and chase it through the proper channels.
Does your credit card company offer free legal advice? They may be used to dealing with this and be able to give you some more positive help. Just get all the information you can, get the police involved and take it from there.
I hope this works out ok for you, and that pikey little bastard gets what he deserves.

[ExoticFish]

luckily i've had good luck with PayPal but i try to be as careful as possible. where about's in Cleveland? ;)

[FlamDrag]

750 is in the top tier; great work! I don't know how much a collection would set your score back, but if you already own a house, you're in great shape. Making your house payments is far more important than this scuffle.

The advice about getting a Pro to serve the papers is great advice.

Mantat - I'll refrain from a full-fledged lecture on credit... It's not about getting a mortgage, it's about getting the best possible rate so you don't waste your money.

[Elan0204]

In the future, I recommend sending all packages using the U.S. Post Office. Involving the USPS in a fraud of any kind is mail fraud, a felony, and a federal crime. The USPS also employs its own task force to go after people suspected of mail fraud (the U.S. Postal Inspection Service). Often times they will help you when the police and/or FBI will not.

I hope everything works out for you in this case, and please keep us posted.

[aricher]

Get the police involved as soon as possible.

Also, to those of you who say "just accept money orders/cashier's checks," BEWARE - I've been scammed by people sending fake US Postal Money Orders before. Always let the M.O.s or CCs clear in your bank account before shipping the item. Also, if you ever sell a big-ticket item and plan on having the person wire-transfer directly into your bank account make sure you wait about a week after it's cleared in your account before shipping. My bank's manager told me that even after a wire-transfer has cleared that the sender can still reverse funds in 5-7 bix days.

Good luck in getting your G5 or getting the crook - be careful out there and be sure to keep us posted.

[Macky-Mac]

...... I don't want this mess. I am giving the money to paypal, and calling the police, maybe I can get him in jail... That would be worth 1600 bucks!...


OUCH, you got scammed and DEFINITELY you should contact the police and go after the scammer

As for Paypal....well, they're not who scammed you. I know they're a big corporation and you're just an individual, but that's not an excuse for trying to stick them with the lose caused when somebody else ripped you off.

It may seem a bit cold but the fact is they're just a company that moves money around between people under certain rules that those customers agree to when they set up an account.

Plus, as you've said, you didn't follow Paypal's rules under which they might have protected you from just this type of fraud.

That said, they sure could be more helpful in investigating this thing.....and maybe they will be once the police are involved....maybe now they're being slow because, well, potentially they're worried you're trying to scam them!

Anyway, I think giving them back the money is the "right" thing, as painful as that is.

[smharmon]

luckily i've had good luck with PayPal but i try to be as careful as possible. where about's in Cleveland? ;)

The shipping address is Cleveland, 44120, but the guys address is in Bedford, but still only 8 miles apart.

[winwintoo]

You might find the forums on this site (http://paypalsucks.com/) interesting.

m

[StealthRider]

Just let us know if you've
A.) Talked to an attorney. (Or, even better, hired one.)
B.) Filed suit and served the guy.
C.) Filed criminal charges, or even just a police report. Since this is across state lines, the FBI might get involved if your police department can find a case.
D.) *EXTREME MEASURE ONLY*If PayPal keeps harassing you even when you've told them that you will only pay them after you have gotten to the bottom of this case, then file suit against them as well for harassment. Might not work too well for anything but getting their attention but they might stop pestering you. Like I said, don't use this unless you need a serious attention-grabber.

[Chip NoVaMac]

https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/protections-outside

Funny, had you sent to the confirmed address, sounds like this would have been covered.

Given that Pay Pal wants to act as a bank, without following banking regulations - I WILL NOT GIVE THEM ACCESS to my banking accounts to get "verified". My loss, and the sellers loss IMO; if the sellers do not want a money order or certified check.

[smharmon]

Ok, I have not yet contacted a lawyer ($$ problems, I just don't have any extra as my wife and I are in school, work, and have a house and 2 cars, but everything but the house is paid off, and that is why we have so little $$!) I did:
Prepare and fax a complaint to the Cleveland Police Dept.
I also contacted apple, and come to find out, they can track when the guy gets online, and where if only I had the serial number... then I remember, oh yeah! the original invoice has it on there!!! thank heavens for filing cabinets! the only catch is that Apple will only work with the police. I gave the police all the information regarding this whole mess, and we will wait and see what they say. I then may have to contact a lawyer, but again, that takes money, and I am just a 22 yr old college student! I have almost the exact amount they want saved in my savings account (that they don't have numbers to), but i need to keep it in case I do have to pay.

I don't know much about legal stuff, but what do you mean get the suit served by a "Pro?"

If there is a site anyone can direct me to, I would appreciate it. I cannot believe all the help I have gotten so far, and I really appreciate what you guys (or gals) have done for me. I have removed all money from my checking account, and will work on this more before they get any of my money!

thanks again

[StealthRider]

I think the "Pro" he means is a paralegal or a police officer.

[Sun Baked]

I don't know much about legal stuff, but what do you mean get the suit served by a "Pro?"Many times people will just serve people through the mail, in person, etc.

But many scumbags will later get out of the judgement by claiming that they were never served, the government courts can serve people by simply dropping a letter in the US mail, and sending it to the adress on tax forms/license -- we have to use the Process Servers for the courts in each county/city, to keep people from using the "improperly/never served" loophole later.

[winwintoo]

Go to the forums on that site I posted: www.paypalsucks.com

If "Paypal" is harrassing you, it might not be paypal at all, but some jerk that works/or worked for them and is just getting his jollies by giving you grief.

Imagine being a low-paid paypal employee sitting there all day taking abuse - he likely took a lot of abuse from the guy that's trying to scam you - and in turn he takes it out on you.

Of course when you call back to paypal, you always get a different person, and they're too busy to take your $1600 seriously. After all, they deal with millions (or is it billions) of dollars in transactions in a day. Unfortunately, when people deal with that much money, even if they start out being decent people, they lose perspective and $1600 means nothing to them - the impact it might have on you is meaningless.

I know that doesn't help you, but that's the facts. Sometimes, you just need to suck it up and move on. You could spend far more than the $1600 in real money and far more in lost sleep and aggravation trying to recover your computer and still not get any satisfaction. If you do get it back, it will never be the same - whoever has it only needs 10 minutes to render it useless if it looks like it's going back to you.

Don't give paypal any money until you have proof in writing - and delivered to you by registered mail - that you owe them. You've filed with the police, let them handle it. Go to school. Save for a new computer. Don't deal with paypal.

m

[Elan0204]

I know this is a bit off topic, but I've got a question. What does everyone think is the best way to exchange cash when buying and selling things online? I always liked PayPal as a buyer because I can use my credit card, and am therefore protected by the CC company's fraud protection. Sending a money order to me is way too unsafe. The seller can cash the check and keep the goods, and I'm left with no recourse.

As a seller, of course the best way to receive payment is money order (although people fake those too), but buyers tend to be hesitant about buying from you since money orders don't protect them. But, as we have no learned PayPal doesn't really protect the seller, so what are they to do? Maybe PayPal is better if you follow their rules in the seller protection policy, but after looking at www.paypalsucks.com, I'm not so sure.

Any ideas on how both sides can feel safe?

[Sun Baked]

You'll probably find some of this stuff in your vicinity...

http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/justiceCourts/Info/smallclaims.asp#h

...and should have similar means of getting the money from the scumbag. ;)

Even though the guy lives in another state, the state he lives in should honor the collection efforts/judgements from out-of-state (as long as you jump through their hoops.)

[Mach D]

http://www.paypalsucks.com/

Join the class action lawsuit.

[agreenster]

I'm still trying to figure out WHY HAVENT YOU called the POLICE YET?

[jaw04005]

Please go to your bank, and tell them that Paypal is trying to fraud you. They will open a fraud complaint against Paypal (which will really piss Paypal off), and try to recover your money. Explain the situtation and notify the authorities. If you are a loyal customer of your bank, and have built a successful reputation---they will not stop loaning you money. If they give you a hard time, threaten to pull your savings or other accounts you may have..

Go after the jerk, and keep us informed! Usually if a legal battle involves two people in different states, a special court (in Arkansas its Federal) handles the lawsuit--even if it is only "small claims."

[e-coli]

I am giving the money to paypal

You're absolutely NUTS, IMHO. Let them sue you. They won't. I promise. Not over $1600. They'll write it off.

[DanGuy48]

Just take money orders only, or make sure you get proof you shipped to a confirmed address, and follow all the guidelines.

i have spend 2 30min sessions on hold with Paypal, and have yet to talk to a human being... in total I have spend about 4 hours over the past few months, and only spoke to a human once. And they weren't helpful.

Unfortunately, the news here was just running a story about scams using money orders. It's apparently pretty easy to forge them now given the printing technology available. The banks usually just treat them as good and it's a week or so before it's usually discovered that there is no account behind the money order and now you owe the bank. The worst case they mentioned was loss of a $41,000 classic automobile using this scam.

[Sun Baked]

Unfortunately, the news here was just running a story about scams using money orders. It's apparently pretty easy to forge them now given the printing technology available. The banks usually just treat them as good and it's a week or so before it's usually discovered that there is no account behind the money order and now you owe the bank. The worst case they mentioned was loss of a $41,000 classic automobile using this scam.Still demanding the US Postal Service's money orders should still afford you the ability to have the Postal Inspectors on their ass, since they are more willing to prosecute than any other service.

About the only way around all these things is to do the swaps locally and walk into the bank when they get the cashier's check, making sure it's in your name. And using the bank to witness all the signatures on title transfers.

---

Of course even if they pass you the money in the clear for the vehicle, not following the state's method for removing your name from the registration still leaves you liable for the vehicle.

They can buy a car, then use it as a battering ram to destroy somebody's car -- and your ass is on the line, along with any tickets the vehicle collects.

[smharmon]

Crap, today I looked at my account, it has a negative balance of almost $1600!!!!!! I called the bank, they said it shouldn't have happened like that (WHAT THE CRAP DOES THAT MEAN) They even charged me $29 for insufficient funds!!! They said they would try to fix it... paypal needs to go to hell... I have yet to be able to get in touch with anyone from paypal. I try to call from work but I can't stay on hold the whole day! Anyway, my paypal account balance is now even, and my bank account is neg. They said that it might have done it since I had lots in other accounts... but i don't have account guard, for that reason! I didn't want paypal to be able to get the money. I couldn't cancel the account cause i still had checks to pay bills out! I guess there went $1600, and I haven't heard from the police..

[jeremy.king]

Bouncing your refund to Paypal probably isn't a good choice either.

Don't say you weren't warned. You said you pulled all your money out of the account hoping it would bounce, but your bank honored the withdrawal. Yikes! Now is you bank the evil one too?

Seriously, call paypal and even if you have to hold for 2 hours, wait...this should be worth your time.

[smharmon]

Don't say you weren't warned. You said you pulled all your money out of the account hoping it would bounce, but your bank honored the withdrawal. Yikes! Now is you bank the evil one too?

Seriously, call paypal and even if you have to hold for 2 hours, wait...this should be worth your time.

well, the bank is who told me to withdraw all the money, and then they wouldn't give any to paypal. I called and talked to them first... it looks like nothing is going to happen. the police in cleveland won't even call me or anything, i doubt they even care... there goes my money and G5 I guess...

[Rabidjade]

Being an avid ebay seller, I have some suggestions. If you sell anything over $100, require money order only and don't list paypal as an option. Paypal is a scam and has a long history of bad business practices. On my current chargeback problem with them, I showed up to their HQ just to be told to leave otherwise the cops were going to be called. I walked in, asked to talk to someone about a problem with my account, gave them the info and then got told I had 5 minutes to leave otherwise they would call law enforcement. Sad day and pissed me off greatly.

[Sun Baked]

Being an avid ebay seller, I have some suggestions. If you sell anything over $100, require money order only and don't list paypal as an option. Paypal is a scam and has a long history of bad business practices. On my current chargeback problem with them, I showed up to their HQ just to be told to leave otherwise the cops were going to be called. I walked in, asked to talk to someone about a problem with my account, gave them the info and then got told I had 5 minutes to leave otherwise they would call law enforcement. Sad day and pissed me off greatly.Actually this would probably be a cool (and dangerous) method to get out of any creditor problem...

Go there with the "intention" of fixing your account and paying off a chargeback problem, and being escorted off the property by the cops along with the warning.

Usually judges will take a dim view of any creditor using the courts to collect any money from a individual after somebody they have already tried to pay a bill in person, acted peacefully, then gets the police called on them and threatened with a jail term.

[Rabidjade]

Actually this would probably be a cool (and dangerous) method to get out of any creditor problem...

Go there with the "intention" of fixing your account and paying off a chargeback problem, and being escorted off the property by the cops along with the warning.

Usually judges will take a dim view of any creditor using the courts to collect any money from a individual after somebody they have already tried to pay a bill in person, acted peacefully, then gets the police called on them and threatened with a jail term.

Its not worth it to have a nice start to a criminal record all over $35.50.

edit: in addition to my last post, USPS money orders are the only way to go.

[Sun Baked]

Its not worth it to have a nice start to a criminal record all over $35.50.

edit: in addition to my last post, USPS money orders are the only way to go.But some of these people are fighting over thousands of dollars and/or more than enough to buy cars.

I've been threatened before, then the guy admitted they do it all the time at their business, and said this usually results in their customers being warned to stay off the property -- for good.

The guy didn't toss me because the second I mentioned a lawyer would slam dunk any case where a dealership damaged a vehicle enough to need a window removed, body panel repainted and interior repairs -- because of their warranty work -- then called the police on them when they compained about the damage.

At that point I was saying, "please, please call the police and have me tossed off the property -- I have timestamped film of the vehicle to go develop that I took before I brought it in." They refused and drove the car to their bodyshop. :(

[dieselg4]

Even if you did follow all the rules of eBay and Paypal, eBay still only "covers" you to $200, and Paypal to $500. Its very shady . . .

It seems that Paypal does tis best to eschew all possible liability. If you sell somthing, and the buyer apys with a credit card, and they complain to the credit card company, the credit card company goes after paypal. Paypal's easiest thing to do is to dock your account. Once they get their money back they're even less likely to try to help you out.

I nearly got caught in a similar position - i purchased a 12" powerbook for $1000. The seller required automatic paypal payment from a checking account. Not wanted to give up cc protection, i sent the payment, trasnfered all but a few whundred of my money to another account, and issued a stop payment on debit. One paypal submitted it and it was rejected, it back-sourced to ym credit card. At least I know I could get my money back, even if it takes a month for citibank to "look into it".

But th long and short of it is, I'm through buying anything expensive on eBay.

[Max Miles]

They said they are putting a collection agency on me... how bad would this hurt my credit rating? Is it worth flying out there, and beating this guy up?

Could turn out to be an exciting adventure. May save a few other poor souls on Ebay as well.

[Mechcozmo]

Call em up and yell a lot. Threaten to sue. Make up stuff until you talk to someone reeeeeaaly important. Then tell him your story. Tell them what you have been through to talk to them (e.g. I had to make up a story about sending and arm and a leg through the mail untill I could talk to you....etc). Do a lot of angry muttereing. Take down employee names and badge numbers. But make sure that you don't say anything like "PAYPAL SHOULD GO TO %!(*%)@#$ HECK!!!!!" because that will get you nowhere. And next time you (heck, IF you do ) buisiness on eBay, make sure that you are paid and have the money in your account before you send off the product.

[mikeyredk]

The person that should be liable is original credit card company that authorized the pull out of the payment in the first place. What credit card company was it? That company is in some serious trouble you cannot close an account with a balance on it. Unless the person claims it to be a fraudulent purchase. But, if the person did receive it that person is in soo much *h*t.

[absolut_mac]

Can anyone give me any advice on how I can proceed? I have the serial number off the unit, do you think apple will give me their contact info if the registered it?

Okay, you wanted some advice, but first a rant. As Chip already said, PayPal wants to act like a bank, but WITHOUT offering ANY of the guarantees that banks offer. This has resulted in a number of class action lawsuits against them for exactly that reason.

Here on the Left coast our consumer protection laws are A1 :) So I wasn't surprised when I got the following email from PayPal.

IF YOU OPENED A PAYPAL ACCOUNT BETWEEN OCTOBER 1999 AND JANUARY 2004, YOU MAY BE ENTITLED TO A PAYMENT FROM A CLASS ACTION SETTLEMENT.

PLEASE READ THIS NOTICE CAREFULLY.

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION

In re PayPal litigation
Case No. CV-02-01227-JF (PVT)

NOTICE OF PENDENCY OF CLASS ACTION AND PROPOSED SETTLEMENT

So, now what can you do about it? First off you have to unlink ALL bank/credit-card info from PayPal, so that they cannot kickback any more charges. Even if it means closing all PayPal linked accounts and opening new ones.

Secondly, you have to speak to your bank manager and firmly but politely ask him to refund your $1,600. When he replies that PayPal has authorized access to your account, you respond - with all relevant dates, times and names of bank employees that you spoke to etc - that you told them that you had a dispute with PayPal and specifically asked them NOT to make any more payments to them, or anybody else (checks already written out obviously excluded) without your authorized consent.

If the bank refuses to refund your money, threaten to close your account and take your business elsewhere. If still no refund is forthcoming, hit them with a claim from smalls claim court.

Trust me, it might take some time - a long time - but you will get your money back.

A friend of mine was charged back $3,000 by American Express because he didn't ship the jewelry to the *customer's* billing address. Turns out that the customer had a stolen credit card, but American Express spoke to him personally before authorizing the transaction. They obviously asked him personal questions etc but I guess the thief had personal info on the legitmate card owner.

To cut a long story short, after AE (American Express) charged back his account, he sued them in small claims court - maximum allowable claim is $5,000. AE didn't bother sending a $300/hour lawyer down to small claims court, so my friend automatically won. Three weeks later he got a check from AE for $3,000 - end of story.

As far as PayPal sending you to collections is concerned, trust me, it's not quite so simple, especially if you dispute the charge back and explain why you are in the right - goods were delivered, they received their fees, and waited so long before disputing the sale etc. And you can threaten to sue them for harrassing you especially seeing as they make person to person contact impossible, doing their harrassing through email and by proxy (the collection agency), especially considering that you have a legitimate dispute about the charge back.

If the worst comes to the worst and you do need to pay the money back to PayPal, you can always pay $10 per month because you are a college student etc. As long as you are paying back something, the collection agency cannot do anything to tarnish your credit rating.

Lastly, as others have laready mentioned, only acept MO, Cashiers Checks and personal checks (with the appropriate waiting period) on Ebay.

Good luck and keep us up to date.

<edit>If dealing with the collection agency gets serious, definitely hire a lawyer to see if it's worth your while fighting them or not. If no go, remember to offer them $10/month :)

[Rabidjade]

To add and correct what others have said and some advice.

First the advice:

1. Never keep money in your paypal account. They aren't insured and chargeback settlements suck the money right out and you never see it again.

2. Don't believe a word they say when a settlement email arrives. Don't believe their threats or promises on anything.

3. As I said before, any high dollar items you want to ask for postal money orders ONLY. PayPal is handy but I wouldn't trust paypal to value me as a customer. [reworded by moderator]

Corrections.

1. The class action lawsuit that is being held against PayPal is a drop in the bucket for them. I got my check 2 months ago for $7.50. WOW, time to retire. My guess is the pay out is based on how much you used PayPal. I average about $1k a year, more in this year than the past.

2. Calling them up and making legal threats make you look like a little kid and give you a direct line to their legal department. Anyone who has been down this road (as I have) knows being directed to a legal department takes all of your chances and directions you could have taken and cuts them out as options. At this point you got one option, get a lawyer.


More to come.

[Chip NoVaMac]

The shame of it is that so many legit sellers have moved towards PayPal only. And some have made the move towards PayPal "verified" only.

So far I have not been stung (knock on wood). I am not "verified", refuse to do so. So I miss out on some auctions already.

But so far I love the connivence of paying for goods right away, and getting the goods a week earlier than going the money order/certified check route. And as mentioned many sellers have gone the PayPal way as the only payment.

I know the simple answer is to do business with people that will accept other forms of payment. As stated that is not always possible.

So the question is, how is the best way to deal with PayPal to best protect ones self?

[Rabidjade]

The shame of it is that so many legit sellers have moved towards PayPal only. And some have made the move towards PayPal "verified" only.

So far I have not been stung (knock on wood). I am not "verified", refuse to do so. So I miss out on some auctions already.

But so far I love the connivence of paying for goods right away, and getting the goods a week earlier than going the money order/certified check route. And as mentioned many sellers have gone the PayPal way as the only payment.

I know the simple answer is to do business with people that will accept other forms of payment. As stated that is not always possible.

So the question is, how is the best way to deal with PayPal to best protect ones self?

1. Be a verified address, easier not to get burnt this way (too long to explain why here).

2. Don't think of paypal as a bank account, think of them as the next door neighbor who has a booze problem. They might do a service for you but in the end, all they care about is themselves.

3. DO NOT KEEP MONEY IN YOUR PAYPAL ACCOUNT.

4. Keep ALL email that have to do with paypal and ebay for at least 6 months. This doesn't mean cut and paste the text in them, but fwd them to a storage account.

5. Download the transaction history every week or so depending on transactions you have. It downloads in a few different formats. Do not touch it and keep it intact. If anything, email it to your storage account so you have a timestamp on it. PayPal has "systems errors" every once in awhile and loses records (to their benefit). Must be those Mac servers they use. ;)

[absolut_mac]

The class action lawsuit that is being held against PayPal is a drop in the bucket for them. I got my check 2 months ago for $7.50. WOW, time to retire. My guess is the pay out is based on how much you used PayPal. I average about $1k a year, more in this year than the past.

You are, of course, 100% correct, the pay out is according to one's usage. The larger the dollar amounts involved, the larger the payout. Although PayPal - now a fully owned subsidiary of Ebay - will have to pay out around 30 million dollars here in California, it's small change for them.

BUT, there is a huge advantage to the consumer once a class action lawsuit has gone forward, and no, I don't mean the $20 to $100 that most consumers will probably end up getting.

I can't speak about other states, but here they have been ordered to clean up their business practises and become more consumer/complaint friendly. If they continue along their old path - which is exactly what I see - they will be hit with larger and more costly fines sooner or later. That is one of the huge advantages of the Left coast, most judges here don't take kindly to big business ripping off "poor, honest, hard working consumers". Especially after they have been forewarned by a class action lawsuit against them.

Obviously none of this happens overnight, but I personally have seen quite a few multi-million dollar companies be driven out of business here due to the fines heaped on them because of poor, consumer unfriendly business practises. Any Californians remember Adrays and how many stores they had???

Other than that, all potential PayPal/Ebay users would do well to read the excellent advice offered here :)

[BornAgainMac]

Could you have just sold it locally? I sold my eMac and iBook locally. I don't see the point of using eBay. It should be called ScamBay. The prices for stuff always seems so high from a buyer's view.

[Chip NoVaMac]

1. Be a verified address, easier not to get burnt this way (too long to explain why here).

2. Don't think of paypal as a bank account, think of them as the next door neighbor who has a booze problem. They might do a service for you but in the end, all they care about is themselves.

3. DO NOT KEEP MONEY IN YOUR PAYPAL ACCOUNT.

4. Keep ALL email that have to do with paypal and ebay for at least 6 months. This doesn't mean cut and paste the text in them, but fwd them to a storage account.

5. Download the transaction history every week or so depending on transactions you have. It downloads in a few different formats. Do not touch it and keep it intact. If anything, email it to your storage account so you have a timestamp on it. PayPal has "systems errors" every once in awhile and loses records (to their benefit). Must be those Mac servers they use. ;)

Good points. Yet, on

#1, to be veriefied according to my reading is that you have to give them an actual bank account.

#2, I actually think of them more as Russian mobsters (sorry to Russians her, I am Slovak background).

#3, hard to do with a Checkcard or Credit Card.

#4, I have emails going back 3 years on personal and business transaction.

#5, many thanks for the tip there....

[Chip NoVaMac]

You are, of course, 100% correct, the pay out is according to one's usage. The larger the dollar amounts involved, the larger the payout. Although PayPal - now a fully owned subsidiary of Ebay - will have to pay out around 30 million dollars here in California, it's small change for them.

BUT, there is a huge advantage to the consumer once a class action lawsuit has gone forward, and no, I don't mean the $20 to $100 that most consumers will probably end up getting.

I can't speak about other states, but here they have been ordered to clean up their business practises and become more consumer/complaint friendly. If they continue along their old path - which is exactly what I see - they will be hit with larger and more costly fines sooner or later. That is one of the huge advantages of the Left coast, most judges here don't take kindly to big business ripping off "poor, honest, hard working consumers". Especially after they have been forewarned by a class action lawsuit against them.

Obviously none of this happens overnight, but I personally have seen quite a few multi-million dollar companies be driven out of business here due to the fines heaped on them because of poor, consumer unfriendly business practises. Any Californians remember Adrays and how many stores they had???

Other than that, all potential PayPal/Ebay users would do well to read the excellent advice offered here :)

Call me jaded, but the only winners in a class action suit are those that first the suit, and the attorneys. Very seldom do such suits bring an award anywhere close to the actual damages suffered by the others. In some cases it may bring about changes for future users, but no relief for those that were actually harmed.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Could you have just sold it locally? I sold my eMac and iBook locally. I don't see the point of using eBay. It should be called ScamBay. The prices for stuff always seems so high from a buyer's view.

Good point!

I recently bought a eMac from a guy here only because he was under a 100 miles from my home. I looked at the computer, and I handed him cash.

[Rabidjade]

#3, hard to do with a Checkcard or Credit Card.

PayPal debit cards work wonders but you have to be verified for that. To be verified anything that verifies your address will do. (debit, credit cards, saving account, ect.)

[BWhaler]

First, off, I am sorry this happened to you. Paypal does suck, no question about it, but luckily it works for the most part not because of Paypal, but because most people are honest.

I think you should fight it, and don't worry about your credit. It takes more time, but you can protest it with the credit agencies, and if worse comes to worst, take Paypal to small claims court. Sue them for 5 grand. You don't need a lawyer, it'll cost you about 30 bucks, but I assure you this will get you good customer service from Paypal then. No more sitting on hold. Call your local newspaper and local news channel. Call the Better Business Bureau. But this is simply just too much money just to let it go and suffer poor customer service.


TIP for Everyone:

One of my buddies buys and sells a lot on ebay. He has a little trick he uses, which is swears by.

In his email after the transaction, he always drops in a friendly little line like, "I'll send you your money order Monday after I get back from training this weekend. (I'm an FBI agent, and we have to do annual trips to the "Farm" to ensure we are current in skills and still in good shape. It's a grueling four days, let me tell you. :-)"

I know it sounds corny as hell, but it works. About 5% of the time the buyer or seller disappears or emails back that his wife sold the item or he no longer has the money to buy it. 5% is about the fraud rate on ebay.

It's simple and stupid as hell, I know, but it works like a charm.

[Elan0204]

TIP for Everyone:

One of my buddies buys and sells a lot on ebay. He has a little trick he uses, which is swears by.

In his email after the transaction, he always drops in a friendly little line like, "I'll send you your money order Monday after I get back from training this weekend. (I'm an FBI agent, and we have to do annual trips to the "Farm" to ensure we are current in skills and still in good shape. It's a grueling four days, let me tell you. :-)"

I know it sounds corny as hell, but it works. About 5% of the time the buyer or seller disappears or emails back that his wife sold the item or he no longer has the money to buy it. 5% is about the fraud rate on ebay.

It's simple and stupid as hell, I know, but it works like a charm.

That is too funny! Even funnier that it actually has helped him detect scammers. Of course now that you've let his secret out, people will probably no longer believe that line. Although, the scammer may not want to risk it, because one day they really might be transacting with a real FBI agent.

[Rabidjade]

First, off, I am sorry this happened to you. Paypal does suck, no question about it, but luckily it works for the most part not because of Paypal, but because most people are honest.

I think you should fight it, and don't worry about your credit. It takes more time, but you can protest it with the credit agencies, and if worse comes to worst, take Paypal to small claims court. Sue them for 5 grand. You don't need a lawyer, it'll cost you about 30 bucks, but I assure you this will get you good customer service from Paypal then. No more sitting on hold. Call your local newspaper and local news channel. Call the Better Business Bureau. But this is simply just too much money just to let it go and suffer poor customer service.


TIP for Everyone:

One of my buddies buys and sells a lot on ebay. He has a little trick he uses, which is swears by.

In his email after the transaction, he always drops in a friendly little line like, "I'll send you your money order Monday after I get back from training this weekend. (I'm an FBI agent, and we have to do annual trips to the "Farm" to ensure we are current in skills and still in good shape. It's a grueling four days, let me tell you. :-)"

I know it sounds corny as hell, but it works. About 5% of the time the buyer or seller disappears or emails back that his wife sold the item or he no longer has the money to buy it. 5% is about the fraud rate on ebay.

It's simple and stupid as hell, I know, but it works like a charm.

Might not be the smartest thing to impersonate a federal official. You could hit the wrong person with that.

[smharmon]

Call em up and yell a lot. Threaten to sue. Make up stuff until you talk to someone reeeeeaaly important. Then tell him your story. Tell them what you have been through to talk to them (e.g. I had to make up a story about sending and arm and a leg through the mail untill I could talk to you....etc). Do a lot of angry muttereing. Take down employee names and badge numbers. But make sure that you don't say anything like "PAYPAL SHOULD GO TO %!(*%)@#$ HECK!!!!!" because that will get you nowhere. And next time you (heck, IF you do ) buisiness on eBay, make sure that you are paid and have the money in your account before you send off the product.

I waited a week for the funds to clear into my checking account. They did, and I shipped it. The problem is that Paypal sent me e-mails saying I had to give th emoney back. Just because it makes it to your checking account doesn't mean anything.

[CrackedButter]

|'ve cancelled my paypal account because of this thread, thanks!

[smharmon]

|'ve cancelled my paypal account because of this thread, thanks!

Yeah, smart man... everyone has to be careful on ebay, but there should be no reason to be worried if you get to keep your money everytime you sell something using Paypal. I have gone to Post Office money orders, and checks (wait till they clear.) I hate that I will loose customers, but better that instead of this. I will also NEVER sell anything over $150 on ebay, as the high value stuff just draws the scammers...

[CrackedButter]

Yeah, smart man... everyone has to be careful on ebay, but there should be no reason to be worried if you get to keep your money everytime you sell something using Paypal. I have gone to Post Office money orders, and checks (wait till they clear.) I hate that I will loose customers, but better that instead of this. I will also NEVER sell anything over $150 on ebay, as the high value stuff just draws the scammers...

Your thread clearly outlines the problems that can happen when using a 3rd party, i hate cheques but its worth the hate rather than inccur the problems you are having. Also this decision stems from a bad experience I had once with a 3rd party when paying for something. A bank recommended me a 3rd party who could pay off a debt i owed, I used them but they made a mistake and the money went elsewhere. I didn't know until a couple of months later that my money was AWOL. I only found out when the bank still wanted their money and had tried to take it out of an account which I had closed.

Of course, whether its your fault or not, the bank never got their money and I got charged for somebodies mistake by the bank.

I think it affected my rating im not sure, if it did, not by a lot. The people i spoke too were incompetant when asking for them to pay my charges, now thinking about it they just weren't listening to me and weren't understanding with what I was saying. However in the end they found the money. I had forgot about that past incident and the issues you spoke about,this thread has reminded me, so I have cancelled the paypal service. I'll cope with cheques instead.

But I feel your pain, its the wait that is the longest part.

[justinshiding]

Just a bit of advice about banks and dealing with matters such as these.

I work for a company that makes quite a few charges that were "unauthorized " (it's a very evil company.) so I get to deal with banks quite often. Here are some things i've come across.

1) Even if you tell the bank to stop accepting charges to your account from company X, 9 times out of 10 they will accept further charges.

2) If the account is left open at all...the charges will go through (often overdrawing accounts, see point 1). So leaving the 100 dollars in the account instead of closing it was not a good move. (But from your point of view I understand why you would do that...) ALWAYS close the account if you want to escape further charges

3) With credit cards/ debit cards...changing the number (buy keeping the same account) will not always stop someone from charging you. I've spoken to people who have been charged by us , changed their card numbers and were still charged again. The card issuers assumed that our charges were authorized and simply sent the charges to the new card. Lovely. I know. So, again, close the account and start a new one.

4) get names. and extension numbers (or Id numbers). the better your records are the more credible you seem. I get calls like this every day, if a customer cant prove to me with a name AND extension that they spoke to someone i assume they're lying.

5) be polite and personable, but firm when dealing with people. Think of it from the point of view of your typical paypal cs rep. They get calls like this every day. Make yourself stand out in a positive way. These are real people, they realize your upset , but showing that you can still be professional and polite goes a long way. Usually cs reps are limited in how much they can credit / etc , so most likely you're asking this person to go to bat for you with their supervisors. I, personally, won't do this unless someone is nice to me. If you call and try to bully / scream your way into a credit, it isn't going to happen. If someone is nice , explains things in a calm manner then I have no issue with going and requesting a full credit. Keep in mind that usually these people are trained to say no to credits...so they'll probably have some sort of script to follow about this. if they say no..explain the situation again and ASK (don't command) if they could perhaps request a credit for them from a supervisor because of your circumstances. If they say no again then calmly ask to speak to a supervisor. Repeat the process again.

Remember , you want these people to help you , dont piss them off.

Don't threaten to get a lawyer. Use all over avenues before taking this one. I know it seems like a good card to play , but it's not going to help you out. I've gotten calls where people said they would sue the company I work for over 9.99. If i ever hear someone say they'll sue, I assume they're bluffing. Besides..how many threats of lawsuits do you think these people hear everyday....probably quite a few.

Use it as a last resort...if you speak to a manager and they still wont help you out , calmly explain that since it's quite a large amount of money that you will be seeking legal counsel to resolve the matter. Get all of the information about the company (address, fax number, etc ...because you'll probably need this)

Wow...this was something of a rant...but I deal with this alll day long...so I have strong feelings :)

Good luck though, you're in the right , I'm sure you'll manage to get your money back.

[Sun Baked]

>justinshiding

Almost sounds like you work for Girls Gone Wild or a Penis Pill companty.