It seems Apple is trying to screw me over with their "moisture indicator" Help!

[ChefEspeff]

Just today, completely randomly the right channel dropped out of my iPod. I read some stuff on the internet saying this happens often so I figured I could go in and easily get it replaced. When I went in the iPod "genius" said that it was due to water damage because the little indicator in the headphone jack turned red (which I can't even see so I'll ask someone else to check that again when I go back). I don't know what this could be from, I've never dropped my iPod in water or anything like that. It seems possible that natural condensation or something could have caused this.

From my understanding if it was water damage the right channel would have shorted and would not work at all, which isn't the case. If I wiggle the jack I can get it working in both channels.

What can I do to hopefully not have to buy a new iPod? I'm definitely going to try to talk to someone higher up to try and see if they will help me out but I wanted some reddit advice to help me plan my course of attack.

[txhockey9404]

I realize this isnt the most ethical advice, but it may work. Take a small enough piece of paper to fit into the headphone jack (a small circle), and push it down into the jack with something like a toothpick until it sticks. This may fool the genius at a quick glance as long as it doesn't fall out. I have heard of others using this trick, but I luckily have not had the opportunity to try it myself. Like I said, I don't really agree with the ethics of this action, but desperate times call for desperate measures...right?...right?

[Nintenmac]

I realize this isnt the most ethical advice, but it may work. Take a small enough piece of paper to fit into the headphone jack (a small circle), and push it down into the jack with something like a toothpick until it sticks. This may fool the genius at a quick glance as long as it doesn't fall out. I have heard of others using this trick, but I luckily have not had the opportunity to try it myself. Like I said, I don't really agree with the ethics of this action, but desperate times call for desperate measures...right?...right?

Keep in mind, they have already seen a genius and said genius has put down on the applecare file, which is tied to the device's serial number, that the moisture indicator has been tripped so any other genius will see on the file that the warranty is void.

OP, a friend of mine went to the genius bar with his 32 gb 3rd gen ipod touch and the moisture indicator was tripped and the genius offered to replace it for $150, rather than buying a new one for $300. I don't know if this is a policy or just a special case but you may want to try to angle for this.

[aristobrat]

From my understanding if it was water damage the right channel would have shorted and would not work at all, which isn't the case. If I wiggle the jack I can get it working in both channels.
When you bring a broken iPod to the Genius Bar, they don't "fix it" there -- they swap it for another one (a refurb that has a new exterior and a new battery). They then take the good parts from your broken iPod and use it to make other refurbs. If you didn't have water damage, you should have been in and out in about 15 minutes.

If your iPod has the moisture indicators tripped, then none of its parts are trusted to be "good parts". The entire thing is basically trashed (properly). The iPod is considered Out Of Warranty, and Apple offers you the ability to buy a like model for a cheaper price (http://www.apple.com/support/ipod/service/prices/#us) than buying a new one.

Apple's website has easy instructions (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3302) for checking for checking for liquid damage.

What can I do to hopefully not have to buy a new iPod? I'm definitely going to try to talk to someone higher up to try and see if they will help me out but I wanted some reddit advice to help me plan my course of attack.
You can recycle your old iPod and get 10% off the price of a new iPod (any model except the shuffle), or you can get an Out Of Warranty replacement (same model, generation, and size) for a price cheaper then buying a new one.

Recycle doesn't require a Genius Bar appointment. The Out Of Warranty replacement does.

You can call back and talk to the Lead Genius or a manager at the store, or you can call AppleCare. All of them have the power to bend the rules.

[ChefEspeff]

When you bring a broken iPod to the Genius Bar, they don't "fix it" there -- they swap it for another one (a refurb that has a new exterior and a new battery). They then take the good parts from your broken iPod and use it to make other refurbs. If you didn't have water damage, you should have been in and out in about 15 minutes.

Do you work for Apple or something? You seem to be trained in the same ******** meandering that the iPod "genius" was so proficient at

[gnasher729]

Do you work for Apple or something? You seem to be trained in the same ******** meandering that the iPod "genius" was so proficient at

Sounded quite reasonable to me what he said. There is also the widely reported fact that insurance claims for iPhones go up by forty percent each time a new model comes out, so when an iPod owner swears on his mother's life that the iPod has never been anywhere near any water doesn't mean it's true.

[nephilim7]

yeah... that 'meandering' is called 'reason' and 'logic'.

you're about the 200th person this year that 'accidentally oopsie maybe did something stupid to his ipod/iphone', and came here looking for help like this forum is mommy and daddy.

the fact is that you have a malfunctioning unit with a tripped water sensor.

Combine that with a lack of ability to understand 'cause and effect', a pissy sense of entitlement, and toss in an unrealistic set of expectations regarding anyone here's ability to do anything about it and you have...

random 'I broked it I want a new one' guy #4543433

[gnasher729]

The iPod is considered Out Of Warranty, and Apple offers you the ability to buy a like model for a cheaper price (http://www.apple.com/support/ipod/service/prices/#us) than buying a new one.

Interesting pricing. So I can replace my brand new Nano 16 GB with video camera for £76 (45% less than a new one), but my four year old mini 4 GB would cost me £136!

[nastebu]

Do you work for Apple or something? You seem to be trained in the same ******** meandering that the iPod "genius" was so proficient at

Geez, the reply you're so annoyed at was completely on point, thoughtful, and answered your question thoroughly. But because you only want to hear something that agrees with what you already think, you get pissy.

If you aren't ready to hear answers you don't like, don't ask questions.

[ChefEspeff]

Sorry if my reply seemed pissy, to be fair I am pretty pissed at the moment. The fact of the matter is that water indicator can't possibly prove both cause and effect. I suppose there's nothing I can say to make you, or probably the Apple store believe me when I say that I have never damaged my iPod but it's just the truth. I've read various reports on the internet saying that this water indicator can go off without the iPod ever directly coming into contact with liquid, which is what happened to me.

My problem with the post I replied to, and the Apple Genius them self was that I'm automatically assumed guilty, even though the physical evidence seems to suggest that water damage was not the cause of my problem. When I jiggle the headphone it miraculously works. Now, I don't have a degree in electrical engineering or anything, but with my understanding, water would most likely cause one of the channel connection points to short out cutting it off completely. I don't understand how water damage could cause this sort of effect.

These water damage indicators seem like an unfair business practice by Apple. By putting it in such an open place, they can easily be tripped by natural condensation that will form when you take the iPod around outside and inside. Call me a conspiracy theorist but this seems like a favorable choice for them because now whenever there's a problem, even when it's not water damage they can just void your warranty if that little indicator happens to go off.

[NightStorm]

These water damage indicators seem like an unfair business practice by Apple. By putting it in such an open place, they can easily be tripped by natural condensation that will form when you take the iPod around outside and inside. Call me a conspiracy theorist but this seems like a favorable choice for them because now whenever there's a problem, even when it's not water damage they can just void your warranty if that little indicator happens to go off.

You are a conspiracy theorist.

Apple didn't invent the water damage indicators and they are no where near the only electronics manufacturer that uses them to spot abuse. The only difference here is that you were able to see the technician since Apple puts techs in their stores... usually you would have had to pay to ship it off to a distant location to have some random first-level support person take a look at it, have them charge you shipping to get it back to you still broken and requiring the full price to replace it.

[Chundles]

Cause has nothing to do with it. The LSI has been tripped, indicating the presence of moisture and voiding the warranty.

You may be able to plead your case to Apple but no service centre is going to repair an iPod with the LSI tripped as a warranty job.

[Lorenz0]

yeah... that 'meandering' is called 'reason' and 'logic'.

you're about the 200th person this year that 'accidentally oopsie maybe did something stupid to his ipod/iphone', and came here looking for help like this forum is mommy and daddy.

the fact is that you have a malfunctioning unit with a tripped water sensor.

Combine that with a lack of ability to understand 'cause and effect', a pissy sense of entitlement, and toss in an unrealistic set of expectations regarding anyone here's ability to do anything about it and you have...

random 'I broked it I want a new one' guy #4543433


Oh boy. Thats a zinger.

And a candidate for brutal factuality post of the month

[Rusalka]

Tell them to open it up and check the other indicators

If it's only the headphone jack they should be able to replace it

[GGJstudios]

A more accurate title for this thread would be:

It seems Apple has successfully protected themselves from getting screwed over with their "moisture indicator"!

[dukebound85]

Sorry if my reply seemed pissy, to be fair I am pretty pissed at the moment. The fact of the matter is that water indicator can't possibly prove both cause and effect. I suppose there's nothing I can say to make you, or probably the Apple store believe me when I say that I have never damaged my iPod but it's just the truth. I've read various reports on the internet saying that this water indicator can go off without the iPod ever directly coming into contact with liquid, which is what happened to me.

My problem with the post I replied to, and the Apple Genius them self was that I'm automatically assumed guilty, even though the physical evidence seems to suggest that water damage was not the cause of my problem. When I jiggle the headphone it miraculously works. Now, I don't have a degree in electrical engineering or anything, but with my understanding, water would most likely cause one of the channel connection points to short out cutting it off completely. I don't understand how water damage could cause this sort of effect.

These water damage indicators seem like an unfair business practice by Apple. By putting it in such an open place, they can easily be tripped by natural condensation that will form when you take the iPod around outside and inside. Call me a conspiracy theorist but this seems like a favorable choice for them because now whenever there's a problem, even when it's not water damage they can just void your warranty if that little indicator happens to go off.
whose to say your buddy didnt trip ot?

i know i dont have my ipod on me at ALL times

those sensore DO NOT just go off

sooooo we have 2 cases
1) you are lying
2) someone spilt water on it at some point and tried to cover it up not informing you

[john123]

Harsh thread. But I'm with the OP on this one (at least with respect to the perspective -- not NECESSARILY his situation), and unlike him, I don't have an axe to grind.

I ran into the exact same issue late this past summer, about 2 months after I had bought my 3GS. I'm the sole owner, and there aren't any kids around, so I am 100% certain I know where the phone had and hadn't been. And I'm 100% certain it never got drenched, soaked, etc.

Like the OP, I was stunned when the Genius said the moisture sensor had been tripped. He said it was "pinker" than most he sees, indicating that the moisture exposure was less than many, but that it was still clearly tripped. And he lent me the tool (basically a light + magnifying glass) he used to see the sensor, so I could see for myself.

I was sort of dumbfounded with the guy. Basically, I said, "Yeah I don't know what to say. I can swear to you that I didn't get this thing wet, but I bet you get a lot of people who come in here every day who know damn well they did and just want a free replacement." I can't even describe the sort of sinking feeling you get knowing you have a legitimate complaint in an area where so many other people don't, but it's a feeling of helplessness. I felt worse because, as this was my first iPhone, I'd babied it. I refused to use it until I got a case and screen protector, I'd always carried it gingerly, and the couple times I had to carry it in the rain, I bent myself over like a hunchback to protect it from the prospect of any water getting on it.

Like the OP, my problem was clearly not one that water damage ever would have caused. I had intermittent issues with people understanding me. Sometimes calls would be crystal clear, and others they would be garbled. It had been like this since day 1 of having the iPhone, and I simply hadn't gotten around to replacing it because I don't use it as a phone very much. (Learned my lesson!)

Well, bottom line, I called Apple Support and spoke with a guy there. I explained the situation, explained I was 100% sure that it wasn't water damage, and he told me that if I sent it in, they'd investigate my claim. If they concluded that it had water damage (regardless of whether that was the cause of my issue or not), they'd charge me $199 -- if it didn't, then it would be a warranty replacement. I happily took him up on this, and bought AppleCare over the phone (since that enabled me to get free shipping to Apple).

Well, turns out this fellow was wrong. That is *NOT* Apple policy. When you send it in, they just look at the sensor too. There is no effort to determine whether the unit has "damage" or not -- they don't even open it up right then and there. After another couple calls to Apple, I got a supervisor to make it right (because the conversation notes were right there in my case file and I'd been clearly misinformed), but it was an ordeal.

The Genius I talked to said that he's heard of condensation from cupholders in cars possibly tripping the sensor, but as I told him, I don't put my iPhone in a cupholder. He also said that a group of Geniuses had tried to see what trips the sensor, and that they'd taken a phone (I assume a busted one) and dunked it in water until it turned, and that it took 30 seconds. As a result, they concluded that the sensor doesn't get tripped very easily at all.

I have a theory, though, and this may be relevant to the OP: humidity. Do you live in a very humid climate? Or, more important, have you taken your iPhone with you into the bathroom when taking a shower? I had taken mine in a couple times (to answer business calls if it rang) with my old one, and I'd kept it out with me on vacation while at the beach (but never getting it wet). I haven't done either of these things with my new one, and its moisture sensor hasn't been tripped. I don't exactly wanna test my theory on my phone. :) But I have read people online complaining that they think humidity is the cause too.

Anyway, TLDR: I am sure there are people who aren't trying to pull a fast one, because I was one of them. I guess I got luckier than most. It's a damn shame Apple puts these sensors in *externally accessible* areas as opposed to more internal ones (like behind the batteries, as is the case with more cell phones), although it's obvious why they have to do so with the iPhone device. Still, I'm sympathetic to those who have not damaged their device and are SOL.

[chown33]

When I jiggle the headphone it miraculously works. Now, I don't have a degree in electrical engineering or anything, but with my understanding, water would most likely cause one of the channel connection points to short out cutting it off completely. I don't understand how water damage could cause this sort of effect.

Water can lead to corrosion (among other effects). Corrosion can lead to open circuits or shorted circuits or both (it's unpredictable). Both opens and shorts can be intermittent, so wiggling improves the electrical contact, usually temporarily.

Simply opening it up, cleaning it off, then resoldering the jack might fix it, if the damage isn't extensive. You'd have to do this yourself, or a friend who's an electronics hobbyist. You're out of warranty, so any informal repair isn't going to change that. However, a ham-handed attempt might break it completely.

[dmz]

I'm an ex-genius, and I can tell you the sensors don't trip unless they are wet. And by wet, I mean immersed. Humidity will not set them off, and yes, Apple has tested these LSI (Liquid SUBMERSION Indicator - get it?) devices extensively. Neither does Apple manufacture theses LSIs, they are manufactured by 3M, and everybody uses the same LSIs as Apple. That's wht the Geniuses are so confident in the indicators - we know they don't lie, but people? meh, not so much.

Even if you swear up and down that YOU didn't wet it, the fact is, unless you have your iPod/iPhone under constant scrutiny - how do you know it hasn't been wetted?

Another point for all to keep in mind - whether you're visiting the Genius Bar or any other computer service shop - is that "you read it on the internet" is not an authoritative source. With over five million ipods and iphones out there, even a hundred cases would be insignificant, and you don't hear from the thousands of owners who have had their devices serviced without problem.

Just because "you can't understand" why getting your iPod wet would be causing your problem, doesn't mean someone with a degree in electronic engineering wouldn't. Water has serious abilities to damage electronics, and electronics are at such a scale that even a small amount of moisture can cause a great deal of damage. And who's to say there isn't more damage beyond the headphone jack?

The Genius is right, you are wrong - that's the way this cookie crumbles.

They feel for you, but cannot get around the policy, which is a good one 999 times out of a thousand. The thousandth person is the one I truly feel for. It does seem that under the right circumstances, water could accidentally enter the headphone or docking connector and end up on that sensor in enough quantity and for long enough to set it off without doing any further damage. That is why the Geniuses have the flexibility to waive the LSI if no other indicators are tripped except the headphone jack. This is not done at the Genius Bar, but rather in the Genius Room, and the Genius will show you if the indicators inside are tripped. If they are, you are completely SOL, your iPod or iPhone has definitely been submersed. If not - you have a good case to plead to the Store Manager, Lead Genius, Genius Manager, or AppleCare.

Good Luck

dmz

[Viantay]

There are lots of other people that have had this happen. Most other cell phone companies put the indicator on the inside of the phone(because it's easy to just pull the back case off and look under the battery). Well, the iphone isn't so easy to just pull apart so apple put this indicator in an easy to see place without taking anything apart. The problem with this is that small amounts of condensation(ex. sweat, while your talking on the phone after a workout) can drop down on the indicator and turn it pink. Those same small amounts of water/sweat won't change the indicator on any other phone because it's on the inside of the phone. I love Apple, but this one was a little unfair.

My dad sent in his phone, they charged him for a new phone because of the water indicator, after talking with a supervisor they looked into it some more and gave him his money back.

I understand there are thousands of people that do get their ipod/iphone wet and just try to lie about it, but there have also been many cases of people who really did not get it wet and this indicator says they did. There's got to be a better place to put this indicator.

[john123]

I'm an ex-genius, and I can tell you the sensors don't trip unless they are wet. And by wet, I mean immersed. Humidity will not set them off, and yes, Apple has tested these LSI (Liquid SUBMERSION Indicator - get it?) devices extensively. Neither does Apple manufacture theses LSIs, they are manufactured by 3M, and everybody uses the same LSIs as Apple. That's wht the Geniuses are so confident in the indicators - we know they don't lie, but people? meh, not so much.

Even if you swear up and down that YOU didn't wet it, the fact is, unless you have your iPod/iPhone under constant scrutiny - how do you know it hasn't been wetted?

Another point for all to keep in mind - whether you're visiting the Genius Bar or any other computer service shop - is that "you read it on the internet" is not an authoritative source. With over five million ipods and iphones out there, even a hundred cases would be insignificant, and you don't hear from the thousands of owners who have had their devices serviced without problem.

Just because "you can't understand" why getting your iPod wet would be causing your problem, doesn't mean someone with a degree in electronic engineering wouldn't. Water has serious abilities to damage electronics, and electronics are at such a scale that even a small amount of moisture can cause a great deal of damage. And who's to say there isn't more damage beyond the headphone jack?

The Genius is right, you are wrong - that's the way this cookie crumbles.

They feel for you, but cannot get around the policy, which is a good one 999 times out of a thousand. The thousandth person is the one I truly feel for. It does seem that under the right circumstances, water could accidentally enter the headphone or docking connector and end up on that sensor in enough quantity and for long enough to set it off without doing any further damage. That is why the Geniuses have the flexibility to waive the LSI if no other indicators are tripped except the headphone jack. This is not done at the Genius Bar, but rather in the Genius Room, and the Genius will show you if the indicators inside are tripped. If they are, you are completely SOL, your iPod or iPhone has definitely been submersed. If not - you have a good case to plead to the Store Manager, Lead Genius, Genius Manager, or AppleCare.

Good Luck

dmz

I don't mean to be incendiary, but just because you're an ex-Genius doesn't make you right. See above for my story. I have zero incentive to lie or mislead anyone here. I got my replacement, at no charge, and my iPhone is working perfectly at the moment. I have no axe to grind.

As for whether my iPhone was under "constant scrutiny" the answer is an emphatic, "yes, at all times, 24/7." When your phone is always in your pocket or sitting your bedside table, that's a luxury you have.

I'd be interested to know what proof you have that exposure to severe humidity can't trip the sensor. If you or anyone else would like to send me a screen-cracked iPod for me to experiment with, I'll happily post pictures and an account of what happened here.

Another theory that I've seen online more is use at the gym. This is probably more prevalent than humidity. Some have indicated that keeping it in a pocket when working up a sweat, or in particular putting it in an armband, can result in the sensor being tripped. I know that since I got my replacement, I make a point not to keep it in my hand for an extended period of time, or in my pocket if I'm doing cardio.

Your claim that the sensors are accurate "999 times out of a thousand" isn't backed up by proof. You're right that the sensors are essentially the same ones used by other mobile devices, but nowhere in your post did you address the critical difference between Apple's and that of other devices: the external accessibility relative to other devices that put it behind the battery.

Yes, lots of people engage in fraudulent behavior to avoid taking responsibility and paying for their mistake. Yes, some people are careless and unknowingly damage their device, such that the pleas that they think are honest really are honest mistakes. But I am 100% certain that there are instances where it's just flaky, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that the incidence of my case was 1 in 1000.

There's got to be a better place to put this indicator.

Here's the kicker: there are 4 indicators on the iPhone! There are the two externally accessible ones (headphone jack, port) and there are two internal sensors. Unfortunately, Apple's policy is that tripping any one of these sensors is enough to declare your warranty invalid. They don't care if your two internal sensors aren't tripped.

The ex-Genius who posted above me says that the Lead Genius has some discretion. That's completely at odds with what the final Apple rep -- a supervisor -- told me. So either official policy is changed or one of these people is confused.

[nephilim7]

I have 5 devices (I'm an iPhone dev). I take the scrubbier ones to the gym, I sit them next to hottubs, once a sauna. In bathroom while showering, etc. I have used them in the rain (seattle).

not a single pink sensor in any of them. Curiosity got the better of me because I see these threads so much, when an older touch outlived it's usefulness and the battery was failing I had to see how much it took. 30 seconds is about right. Dunk.. offwhite. Enough to mess it up (left it on for yuks). 10 seconds. You could tell the color was off. 30 was pink and 1 minute was red.

so yeah, as adamantly as you call 'shenanigans' I call total BS. No sympathy.. tired of subsidizing 'dumb' in the way of higher prices because of people that don't care enough about their belongings.

[ChefEspeff]

I think dunking would actually be pretty unlikely to set off the sensor if it was just under for a few seconds. Because the hole is relatively small and there is only one way for air to get out it is very likely that an air bubble would get trapped in the jack. The surface tension of water would probably keep this bubble there for a few seconds until eventually it escaped and the water would flow in, setting off the sensor.

I don't really get why people think I would lie here. I can understand thinking that I would lie to the iPod "genius" (I'm really getting tired of that word) but there isn't really an incentive to lie to a bunch of random people on a forum.

I suppose you might think that I am lying to get advice on how to sneak through the system and get a free iPod but I'm not even necessarily looking for a way to bypass the system altogether, I would be fine with getting the Apple store to actually take a look at my iPod to see that this wasn't caused by water damage.

[john123]

so yeah, as adamantly as you call 'shenanigans' I call total BS. No sympathy.. tired of subsidizing 'dumb' in the way of higher prices because of people that don't care enough about their belongings.

Fair enough if you want to say this to the OP, but since I have no axe to grind, I'd love to know what your response to me is. I have better things to focus on a random thread and act contrary.

Yet another possibility might be differing levels of tolerance or sensitivity of various sensors, although that strikes me as unlikely in any significant way.

No matter what, just because you can't explain or prove it doesn't make it not true.

[dmz]

I'd be interested to know what proof you have that exposure to severe humidity can't trip the sensor.

3Ms product literature. The LSI's will indicate a slight pink tint after 7 days of exposure to 95% humidity at 55ºC. Not red, but very slightly pink. Guess what? That's way outside of Apple's operating specs for the iPhone - your warranty is void either way.

Apple's policy is that tripping any one of these sensors is enough to declare your warranty invalid. They don't care if your two internal sensors aren't tripped.

Now, magically, you know Apple's policy? Your next statement proves you do not - as any Apple Genius has the discretion required to make this call - but if he/she is not willing to make the call, any of the others can.

The ex-Genius who posted above me says that the Lead Genius has some discretion. That's completely at odds with what the final Apple rep -- a supervisor -- told me. So either official policy is changed or one of these people is confused.

As I said, I do feel for anyone who has to learn this lesson the hard way, but to papraphrase Eddy from Lost World, "Technology and water... not good bedfellows..."

[john123]

And product literature is never wrong, eh? If it were, you'd have crazy things like class action lawsuits. Oh wait.

As I stated earlier, my statement of Apple policy was specifically what I was informed by a supervisor (making more than you - a friend of mine is a Genius on the west coast, so I'm pretty sure of that).

And, like I said, I didn't have to "learn my lesson" any hard way. I got it replaced for $0. I'm sorry that my facts don't square with how you'd like to see the world, but sometimes that's just how it rolls.

[LateOne]

I have 5 devices (I'm an iPhone dev). I take the scrubbier ones to the gym, I sit them next to hottubs, once a sauna. In bathroom while showering, etc. I have used them in the rain (seattle).

not a single pink sensor in any of them. .

You're lucky. My Touch didn't survive a wet and windy walk home through town. I suspect the problem occurred whilst waiting for a minute or two in an ATM queue. I foolishly took it out my pocket to change tracks. I suspect that a drop or drops rolled down the screen into one of its' crevices ?? , not sure really but it 'hung' pretty smartish. Visits to the retailer and the apple store were to no avail.:(

I decided that I'd made a poor purchasing decision in that music playing is my priority, and of course the Touch isn't good at 'in-pocket' music selection,
and it rains in the UK !!. I sometimes wonder whether it is assumed that purchasers are living in sunny California.

My myriad mates with iPhones have all bought after market covers. This I feel is an admission of the fragility of the original. But they all love the thing .

Maybe I was just unlucky. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[john123]

Maybe I was just unlucky. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I'm sure you aren't either. This is where things get so crazy. You talk to people who have "tested" the moisture sensors, and they talk about hardcore submersion for a period of time being required to change the color the sensor. You talk to a bunch of other people who clearly have had a lot less exposure, and theirs has changed. Heck, think about it this way: if it really takes *30 seconds* wouldn't all the people who drop theirs in the sink, shower, or even toilet be getting theirs out fast enough not to trip it? It just doesn't add up.

Addendum: check out http://www.cultofmac.com/the-tropics-may-be-too-humid-for-apples-iphone/13571

This suggests that humidity could easily be the culprit after all.

[nastebu]

Addendum: check out http://www.cultofmac.com/the-tropics-may-be-too-humid-for-apples-iphone/13571

This suggests that humidity could easily be the culprit after all.

from that link:

"According to forum posts on HardwareZone, Singapore’s wireless carrier Singtel is rejecting warranty claims of iPhones that appear to have suffered water damage, but owners swear up and down their iPhones have never been submerged."

in other words, someone posted something on an Internet forum in Singapore. This is not good evidence.

[dukebound85]

And product literature is never wrong, eh? If it were, you'd have crazy things like class action lawsuits. Oh wait.


i was unaware that
1) the sensors are known to be defective
2) there is a class action lawsuit regarding the sensors

now seeing as the above don't apply, where are you going with this? if it was indeed a problem, wouldn't both cases at least be addressed in some manner?:cool:

[theBB]

Heck, think about it this way: if it really takes *30 seconds* wouldn't all the people who drop theirs in the sink, shower, or even toilet be getting theirs out fast enough not to trip it? It just doesn't add up.
Once the water gets in, it is very difficult to get all of the little droplets, some of which may have landed on the sensor, out of the phone.

Whoever has told you that water damage only leads to permanent problems and not intermittent ones is making things up. You can ignore whatever else he claims.

[Maximara]

I'm an ex-genius, and I can tell you the sensors don't trip unless they are wet. And by wet, I mean immersed. Humidity will not set them off, and yes, Apple has tested these LSI (Liquid SUBMERSION Indicator - get it?) devices extensively. Neither does Apple manufacture theses LSIs, they are manufactured by 3M, and everybody uses the same LSIs as Apple. That's wht the Geniuses are so confident in the indicators - we know they don't lie, but people? meh, not so much.

Because of articles like "Mythbusting moisture-detecting stickers/liquid submersion indicators" (http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=3887) March 17th, 2009 by Adrian Kingsley-Hughes:

"LSIs are not triggered by high humidity, however, if that water vapor is allowed to condense then any water that condenses on the LSI will trigger it. Keeping a cellphone in a humid car overnight is enough to trigger one or more LSIs. A cellphone in your pocket might suffer the same fate."

The "More details on the immersion sensors of Apple" (http://www.hardmac.com/news/2009/07/16/more-details-on-the-immersion-sensors-of-apple) article points out "The indicators will not be triggered by temperature and humidity that is within the product's environmental requirements described by Apple." and then ends with "Apple indicates that these pastilles cannot turn pink without water, which is false after the tests of 3M."

So there are OTHER known ways other than submersion to trigger a LSI and 3M itself admits it. In fact the name 3M gives these things is "Water Contact Indicator Tape"--contact NOT submersion.

[john123]

i was unaware that
1) the sensors are known to be defective
2) there is a class action lawsuit regarding the sensors

now seeing as the above don't apply, where are you going with this? if it was indeed a problem, wouldn't both cases at least be addressed in some manner?:cool:

Really? They don't apply? Google for (1); you'll see lots of claims to the contrary. As for (2), I'm guessing you don't work in the legal field, as class action lawsuits usually take quite a long time to form. This applies even in the realm of technology: some common examples would be the lawsuit against Seagate for misrepresentation of drive size, the lawsuit against Epson regarding ink capacity, etc. These both took years for the class to be defined, counsels retained, and litigation to get to the point where the class was notified.

[sandalhq]

Can I ask whether the OP has checked whether it's the headphones at fault, rather than the ipod socket? Just wanted to check that's all.

[whooleytoo]

One thing to note - did they blow compressed air into the headphone socket to clear it before checking the sensor? Compressed air contains moisture, which is likely to condense in the socket when it expands/cools.

I have no idea if this is enough to 'trip', or partially tinge the sensor, but it's worth bearing in mind.

I think it's inevitable that some of these sensors will give false positives & negatives. Even if only 0.01% of all sensors failed at some point (that would be astonishingly reliable!!) that still equates to over 20,000 false readings and potentially a hell of a lot people unfairly denied a warranty repair/replacement.

As someone said on another thread, it would be far better if you could receive a warning when any moisture warning trips. If you know exactly when it trips, you'd realise what caused it (if it's giving a valid reading) or that the sensor is faulty (if the iPod/iPhone isn't anywhere near moisture).

[john123]

I agree with the logic about figuring out when/what trips it. Unfortunately, with the iPhone itself, I don't think that's possible. It would be possible perhaps to get some of the 3M product and craft a device to "simulate" the iPhone experience (i.e., being in crevices of the same size, shape, and temperature), and have a sensor to detect when the reaction takes place. I would assume that in the course of testing 3M did precisely this, although without the iPhone specific part. However, while they're going to release tolerances for liability purposes, they're not going to tell anyone just what conditions outside of stated tolerances might trip the sensor.

[kunal123]

Have you tried different earphones? I had the same exact problem and all that had happened was that my earphones stopped working. It can happen due to the wire getting stretched.

[dmz]

Intermittent headphones can be an electronic problem, but they can also be a mechanical problem, i.e. dirt/dust/lint gets in the port and prevents a solid electrical connection. I'd say about three out of four intermittent headphones I see in iPods are just that - dirt. Blowing out the port with compressed air (which does NOT contain moisture when used as directed), or digging with a dental pick will usually clear the problem right up - takes less than a minute at the Genius Bar to take care of this problem.

I don't know why someone who has had their iPod/Phone replaced when the LSIs were tripped (I'm talking to you John123) has anything to complain about? You are one of the one-in-a-thousand whose iPod was replaced despite the LSI indicators having indicated. And despite the fact that this supervisor "makes more" than your Genius friend, doesn't mean he has a clue as to what the Genius's capabilities are. Just ask your Genius friend - I would quote you directly from the Apple SOP, but I am not allowed to under the NDA - I assure you that a Genius has the ability to generate an exception for just such a circumstance. Oh, and while you're talking to him, ask him how many people with "tripped" LSIs will swear that their iPod/iPhone was "messed-up" before it got wet, and therefore still qualifies for AppleCare.

Perhaps the Geniuses are jaded by all the whiny, entitlement-enhanced liars they see, they still feel for people who have this problem. If they feel you are telling the truth, and the internal sensors are not tripped - they WILL make an exception, but don't try to pull the wool over their eyes - it won't work. Obviously, john123, you were a reasonable person with a genuine problem, and Apple did the right thing by you.

dmz

[john123]

dmz -- Again, I don't dispute that there are thousands of people out there who are trying to pull a fast one. I don't dispute that every single day Apple Genius Bar employees who are just trying to do their jobs have to deal with these folks. I don't dispute that people give Geniuses a hard time in the store about this, and they sometimes do so knowing damn well the issue is their own fault. And I don't dispute that sometimes people think they didn't get their phone wet when it really did (e.g., when out of the user's control).

My only point -- diminished by my getting pissy at the previous Genius who insisted the OP was a liar (and thus taking me way off track from my original post) -- is that there is some incidence of the population that does have a legitimate beef, and that I know so from experience. The reason I commented in this thread to begin with wasn't that I had an axe to grind as much as it was that I raised an eyebrow when so many people ganged up on the OP. And, really, it was about tone more than anything: instead of the early posts in this thread being couched in the form of, "Well, can you really be 100%?" they were accusatory. That's what pushed my button. At the same time, the OP was pretty upset and kneejerky with respect to the guy who explained the Apple policy, so I see how the thread arrived where it did. There's plenty of blame to go around.

I don't blame you guys for being jaded. I would be too if I were in your shoes. My only point was that my own experience suggests to me that the incidence of people who aren't trying to pull a fast one and who didn't let their phone get out of their control is higher than believed here.

[dmz]

John123 - Sorry for singling you out of the blowhards - you're not one of them. You seem like a reasonable person, and that's probably why your case was dealt with properly. As to the OP, I truly wish him well, but I have a feeling he's going to be turned down flat.

I'm still chuckling over the responder who suggested putting "a little piece of paper" over the LSI - really? I bet he read that on the internet somewhere. That, for all you blowhards out there, would never work. In fact, you would just be signalling the Genius that you are trying to scam Apple, straight up. Prepare to be escorted to the nearest exit and barred from the Apple Store, and yes, they can and will do that. And yes, you read it right here - on the internet - so it MUST be true!:p

dmz

[ChrisA]

Just a minute.... The warranty says only that damage due to liquid is not covered. Even if the phone had been placed in water and you told them it was, they would have to show that the damage was caused by the water. Read the text of the warranty carefully. A tripped indicator should only be a sign to Apple that they need to look closer for actual damage.

It would be fun to take Apple to small claim court for $150. I'd bet a lot they'd not even show up and you'd win by default. "Who has time for that?" you ask. You can also collect for your cost to takethem to court including time off work, transportation the cost of having papers serves and so on. And there are companies who will do the paper work for you.

[john123]

Yeah, the piece of paper suggestion was pretty ridiculous. When I went back to read, I realized that's how this thread really got off on the wrong foot.

As for the damage issue cited by ChrisA: I just whipped out my iPhone 3GS manual/warranty, which reads, "..(c) to damage caused by accident, abuse, misuse, liquid spill or submersion, flood, fire, earthquake, or other external causes." On page 2, in addition, it states, "An iPhone that has been damaged as a result of exposure to liquids is not serviceable."

So, you are right that the use of the word "cause" is in there.

Page 9 makes a specific reference to temperature tolerances (32-95 F for usage) and makes specific reference of "dramatic changes in temperature or humidity when using iPhone as condensation may form on or within iPhone."

I've got a sneaking suspicion that condensation may be the cause of a lot of the problem for a lot of the people who are honestly swearing up and down that they didn't get their phone wet. I got my replacement phone in September, IIRC, and I'd taken two trips to Florida in the summer. I'd kept my iPhone out and about with me. It never got wet, but in moving from conditions that are warm and humid into cool air conditioning, maybe that's how my sensor got tripped? Like the Genius told me at the store, mine was definitely "light pink," so maybe this is all starting to add up.