what the new imac is missing

[jkaz]

although i do like the new g5 imac alot, especially the prices per screen size, here's why i'm not buying one right now.


64mb vram. i don't want my friend with a sweet powerbook to have more vram than me.

only up and down tilting, no swivel back and forth as the old style imac had. this isn't that big of a deal, but just a current factor.


built in video camera! built in extreme! built in bluetooth!
these seem to me to be areas where apple should lead the pack, instead
of boosting $$$


i like it alot though, and if the vram would be at 128, i would likely bite.

comments?


(64mb of vram is max, right?)

[KingSleaze]

You can easily turn the whole thing.
Extreme and BT are BTO options.
If you need a camera built in, get an iSight.
Yes, the amount of VRAM is kind of skimpy, maybe next rev.

[jkaz]

You can easily turn the whole thing.
Extreme and BT are BTO options.
If you need a camera built in, get an iSight.
Yes, the amount of VRAM is kind of skimpy, maybe next rev.


i just think it's come time that camera, tooth and xtreme are standard.



because, yes, i do know that bt and bto are options and that iSight is available for purchase.

thank you

[FuzzyBallz]

Heh, it's not like Apple will lose any money with a few people bitching about what's included and what's not. If these people don't buy it, others will. I'll get the 20" when I see it at the school book store.

i just think it's come time that camera, tooth and xtreme are standard.
Standard? What do you think this is, a PC?

[jkaz]

Heh, it's not like Apple will lose any money with a few people bitching about what's included and what's not. If these people don't buy it, others will. I'll get the 20" when I see it at the school book store.


Standard? What do you think this is, a PC?

dude, don't insult me like that, i'm not in the mood.

standard like firewire you nut

[solvs]

Advice to you newbie, not a way to make friends here. Neither is starting a thread on something like this when there are a ton of them out there. No offense, but this has been brought up already. A lot.

I agree that the VRAM is a little skimpy, but as someone who doesn't play video games it doesn't matter to me. Neither does Airport or BT (or camera). I'd rather not pay for them, and for those who do, adding them is pretty easy. That's all Fuzzy meant (though you could be a little nicer to the newb, we were all new at one point). It's too bad Apple doesn't also give you a way to upgrade the video card when you buy it like with the PowerBooks, but I guess that's what the Towers are for. Maybe Apple will come out with a low end Tower soon, but I'm not holding my breath.

Unfortunetly the iMac is not for you. Understandable. But people are kinda sick of hearing about this. Yes, it sucks for gaming. E-mail Apple to complain. Then join the New iMac thread.

[tech4all]

only up and down tilting, no swivel back and forth as the old style imac had. this isn't that big of a deal, but just a current factor.

Possible solution >> http://www.g5gear.com/ineck/

[jsw]

Possible solution >> http://www.g5gear.com/ineck/I knew (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1014338#post1014338) it!

[jsw]

dude, don't insult me like that, i'm not in the mood.

standard like firewire you nut

Advice to you newbie, not a way to make friends here. I must be missing the offensiveness in the post by jkaz. Also, although his post count is low, he's been posting for about seven months and has been around longer than about a quarter of the membership.

Unfortunetly the iMac is not for you. Understandable. But people are kinda sick of hearing about this. Yes, it sucks for gaming. E-mail Apple to complain. Then join the New iMac thread.I also missed where jkaz argued that the iMac sucks for gaming.

Threads are free. I've yet to understand why people complain about new ones. It's not like the posts will take up less room if they add to an older thread, and sometimes it's nice to not have to dig through 500 previous posts to catch up on a thread so as to not have someone complain that your post was just like one 200 posts previously.

I agree with the VRAM/GPU complaints. I like that BT and AE are best left as options, although I think Apple should either make BT a user-upgradeable option without requiring an external 3rd party dongle or make it standard. I'd also like to see a DVI or VGA in port to allow the iMac to be used as a monitor for an external system.

And yes, I'm sure 300 other people have mentioned the same things.

[Mechcozmo]

Yes, 64MB of VRAM isn't the best. No, I don't care to hear about it for the 10 billionth time. Accept the fact that the iMac is not a gaming computer!!! Plain and simple. There. And just in case you do decide to play games on it, 64MB of VRAM is not bad, it just isn't too good nowadays.

[tech4all]

I knew (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1014338#post1014338) it!


Actually, it was your where I found it :D

[QCassidy352]

Yes, 64MB of VRAM isn't the best. No, I don't care to hear about it for the 10 billionth time. Accept the fact that the iMac is not a gaming computer!!! Plain and simple. There. And just in case you do decide to play games on it, 64MB of VRAM is not bad, it just isn't too good nowadays.

This post should just be made a sticky on the top of the buying advice and hardware forums, IMHO. I don't want to hear one more word about the graphics card on the imac. Yes, it could (and should) be better. No, it's not as bad as some people would have you believe. But mostly, if we didn't get it the first 10,000 times it was said, is it really going to help saying it for the 10,001st time?

[technocoy]

i come to macrumors...

i think to myself, man, i'm really tired of hearing about all the stuff the new iMac is missing...

then i see a thread called "what the new iMac is missing"...

so instead of ignoring the post (since i did just think to myself how sick i was of hearing this) I HAVE TO CLICK ON IT AND WHINE ABOUT IT BEING THERE!!!!!!!

god, please! you people are just as bad or worse than the ones that you claim are annoying people. he has a right to post here. if he didn't the MODERATORS would have deleted it. so, if you aren't one....

ah forget it.

good luck with your purchase, man. maybe you will want to wait until the first update, when they may just put a higher end card in the top-end iMac.

and apparently you should post this elsewhere or the whiny monsters might attack you!!!! RRRRAAAAARAAAGGGHHHH...

HA HA HA!!! I love you guys!!! :eek:

[furrina]

i come to macrumors...

i think to myself, man, i'm really tired of hearing about all the stuff the new iMac is missing...

then i see a thread called "what the new iMac is missing"...

so instead of ignoring the post (since i did just think to myself how sick i was of hearing this) I HAVE TO CLICK ON IT AND WHINE ABOUT IT BEING THERE!!!!!!!


What a great example of human behavior. :p

[Timelessblur]

You see this is an example list about why I will never buy a mac desktop that is not a Powermac. Reason being is to me there are to close to entry level in hardward. Powermac are to over kill and cost to much.

But does that mean I am not planing on buy a mac in a few years when I replace my laptop. No as it stands I plan on replacing my PC laptop in 2 years or so with an Apple ones which I see as being competively priced and competive specs with upgradlity.

Lastly I will say Damn you Pear PC. Because now I want to get a mac to play around with. (WIll never be the main computer due to lack software I need)

[JFreak]

i want wireless power, or at least imac with a battery - that way the new imac would compare to 2yr old dell laptops in size and weight :D :D :D

[solvs]

I must be missing the offensiveness in the post by jkaz. Also, although his post count is low, he's been posting for about seven months and has been around longer than about a quarter of the membership.
No offense was meant, I guess I was just thrown by the thread and the response to Fuzzy. I thought it was about something else when I clicked on it, and got someone talking about something that's been discussed ad nauseum. It wouldn't have bothered me if he didn't say "I'm not in the mood". Don't know why that set me off, it just did.

My point is just that, not to speak for Fuzzy, but we've had an influx of new posters coming in just to complain about something that is not intended for them. I keep seeing "I haven't read any of this, so I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but..." and then something that has been said many, many times. I'm all for constructive criticizm (.Mac anyone?), but there were almost 1600 posts on the iMac thread last I checked, most of them saying the same thing. That's why I said "no offense" and "understandable". Maybe jkaz didn't know. Maybe Fuzzy was a little harsh. Maybe we should just drop it.

We get it, it's a valid criticizm, but it's been mentioned. If you continue to bring it up, it was just a warning that someone is going to say something and not to take it so personal, is all. I happen to like the ugly new iMac, even if it does have a crappy video card. And I'm glad it doesn't have wireless as standard because I'd rather not pay for something I will never use, especially if I can easily add it in the future if I do.

Though it does suck that you can't easily add BT later without a dongle, I still agree with you there.

[jxyama]

i just think it's come time that camera, tooth and xtreme are standard.

camera isn't a "standard" yet and i don't think it ever will be. it's a novelty item that's not needed by majority of the people. only a few bothers with video chatting.

BT isn't also a "standard" yet. i think if you know enough to want it, you have the option to add it - that's pretty good. no need to make it a standard and "force" everyone to pay for something majority of them don't use.

wireless is also not a compelling "standard option" for a desktop. many people will be happy to just stick an ethernet cable since they won't be moving the iMac around the house. so BTO sounds about right.

the bottom line is, adding any of the three will add to the price or apple's costs. and i think it's quite alright the way it is now - BT will probably become a standard in a while as long as its use continues to spread.

as for vram, it's been discussed. i don't think it makes much of a difference to majority of intended buyers of iMac - and they aren't gamers.

[VooDooPope]

I would have liked FW8 and more Vram but I still thing the new iMac is a great computer at a good price. Can't wait to get mine.

[Bozola]

I think the best thing that is missing... is the computer! :) !

[sushi]

I would have liked FW8
What do you need FW8 for? (In a consumer computer)

Pro model, yes. Well even maybe right now since very few devices support it.

Let's be realistic here. This is a consumer computer model. Not a pro model.

Sushi

[vga4life]

Yes, 64MB of VRAM isn't the best. No, I don't care to hear about it for the 10 billionth time. Accept the fact that the iMac is not a gaming computer!!! Plain and simple. There. And just in case you do decide to play games on it, 64MB of VRAM is not bad, it just isn't too good nowadays.
Actually, Apple claims the imac G5 is a gaming computer. Go to http://www.apple.com/imac and look at how much they talk about games. Almost more than they talk about iLife.

Don't delude yourself. People see "Oh, Apple says I can play Doom III on it!" (claim made here http://www.apple.com/imac/design.html ) - boy will they be steamed when they find out they'll be playing in 640x480 (i.e. non native resolution on the LCD) at 10-15fps.

The crappy video card is a legitimate gripe, and Apple needs to know it. They read these boards, and I'm all in favor of keeping the heat on them.

-vga4life

[jxyama]

Actually, Apple claims the imac G5 is a gaming computer. Go to http://www.apple.com/imac and look at how much they talk about games. Almost more than they talk about iLife.

Don't delude yourself. People see "Oh, Apple says I can play Doom III on it!" (claim made here http://www.apple.com/imac/design.html ) - boy will they be steamed when they find out they'll be playing in 640x480 (i.e. non native resolution on the LCD) at 10-15fps.

The crappy video card is a legitimate gripe, and Apple needs to know it. They read these boards, and I'm all in favor of keeping the heat on them.

-vga4life

sure, apple also says this:

with three times the frame rate as the previous iMac in Unreal Tournament 2004

which might as well be true. apple's not making any claims against any of the PC gaming rigs.

note that apple listing games as potential use doesn't mean it's a gaming computer. if you say "gaming computer" to someone who's a serious gamer, that means completely different thing than how apple is advertising iMac's ability to play games. so in that sense, iMac is not a "gaming computer."

can we drop this now?

[jsw]

can we drop this now?
Really, now, you know it won't be dropped until Apple releases the next rev of the iMac, and then it will shift to why that version sucks as a gaming machine.... ;)

[Timelessblur]

I think basicly the iMac in short has shortcoming that are not very forgiveble for a desktop to many people (me being one of them). These short coming are fine for a laptop and hell even higher shortcoming are forgiveble for laptops. Problem is this is the new imac is almost like a wanna be Desktop and a wanna be laptop at the same time. So you get shortcomings of both. You get some advatages of each but still gets it short comings

[vga4life]

I think basicly the iMac in short has shortcoming that are not very forgiveble for a desktop to many people (me being one of them). These short coming are fine for a laptop and hell even higher shortcoming are forgiveble for laptops. Problem is this is the new imac is almost like a wanna be Desktop and a wanna be laptop at the same time. So you get shortcomings of both. You get some advatages of each but still gets it short comings

Good point.

imac G5: the power of a laptop with the portability of a desktop!

-vga4life

[Chip NoVaMac]

Possible solution >> http://www.g5gear.com/ineck/

Sweet, but do wish it had the vertical adjustment that the iMac G4 had....

[QCassidy352]

Good point.

imac G5: the power of a laptop with the portability of a desktop!

-vga4life

see a lot of G5 laptops around at $1300, do you? :rolleyes:

[vga4life]

see a lot of G5 laptops around at $1300, do you? :rolleyes:

I didn't say it had the price of a laptop.

And I'd take a Radeon 9700 Mobility over a GeForce 5200FX any day.

-vga4life

[andiwm2003]

i'd like to see more digital hub stuff:
i'm happy to put in airport and bluetooth by bto.
a built in camera would be nice, but an isight is probably more practical.
graphics is good enough for me.
i'd like to have a tv card (HDTV, digital?) and be able to use it as digital videorecorder (of course as bto, of course it won't be cheap).
i'd like to use it as phone/answering machine/fax.
i'd like to be able to use a second monitor (not a mirror)
i'd like to use the internal monitor for as second monitor for my notebook or PC.

aside of the videostuff everything seems to be possible already now.

so apple go ahead and bring a 23" rev. b next year and i'll shell out the money.

andi

[jxyama]

i'd like to use it as phone/answering machine/fax.
i'd like to be able to use a second monitor (not a mirror)

mac can already receive faxes... as well as send any files as a fax image, i believe. the only thing it lacks is the ability to scan a document and fax it. i don't think that's very practical to be incorporated into an iMac since it would add a lot of bulk.

using voice IM or voip, i'd think any computer with a microphone can function as a phone, with an added software, if needed...

display mirror/span is done as a part of product differentiation. so i don't that will change. the best you can hope for is a hack.

[andiwm2003]

mac can already receive faxes... as well as send any files as a fax image, i believe. the only thing it lacks is the ability to scan a document and fax it. i don't think that's very practical to be incorporated into an iMac since it would add a lot of bulk.

using voice IM or voip, i'd think any computer with a microphone can function as a phone, with an added software, if needed...

display mirror/span is done as a part of product differentiation. so i don't that will change. the best you can hope for is a hack.

yes, the mac can send recieve faxes, do voicemail. but what i would like to see is it being more integrated. i imagine an airport express hooked up to the phone line in the basemant and that is it. a call wakes the mac from sleep and i can videochat.

the same with videorecording. an airport express to the tv cable and go.

a remote control (of course bto) for itunes and using the mac as tv would be great.

so i'm looking for a vision for an ultimate home entertainment center/computer. apple is moving towards the digital hub and that's what i want. having everything wireless would make it easy. so i think apple is on the right way. they just have to go it all the way.

and they should give up crippling computers for product differentiation.

my 2 cents, andi

[Chip NoVaMac]

Trying to be pragmatic, the items that I feel that are truly missing from the iMac G5:

- Built-in BT and AE

- Bundled BT keyboard and mouse

- Built-in 512mb RAM at the cost they have the current offerings

- A BTO option for 128mb video card

On the first three points, the cost would out weigh the extra sales they would receive. With the thrid point being what everyone else is offering.

[rdowns]

Trying to be pragmatic, the items that I feel that are truly missing from the iMac G5:

- Built-in BT and AE

- Bundled BT keyboard and mouse

- Built-in 512mb RAM at the cost they have the current offerings

- A BTO option for 128mb video card

On the first three points, the cost would out weigh the extra sales they would receive. With the thrid point being what everyone else is offering.

I don't think standard BT makes sense yet. Too many don't want it. If they did, we'd have a lot more choice in BT peripherals.

Apple offering BT, KB and mouse for $99 is a very sweet deal.

[kgarner]

While I think it would be awesome to see all of these suggestions added as BTO options. I think the only thing they really screwed up on is the memory. The 1.8 GHz models should come with 512MB standard. Everything else (BT, AE, 128MB VRAM, etc.) should be options, not standard.

My 2¢.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I don't think standard BT makes sense yet. Too many don't want it. If they did, we'd have a lot more choice in BT peripherals.

Apple offering BT, KB and mouse for $99 is a very sweet deal.

I see your point. Yet for the $99 that Apple charges it would have given them them the possibility of a cleaner system, and with the the AE "router" a possibility of just a power cord to the iMac G5.

[jkaz]

so for the ultimate machine, we have:

23"
built-in:
ae
bt
standard 512 ram
upgrade to 128 vram
bluetooth remote control
fax/telephone capabilities
the capability to use as digital tv recorder
and maybe a 'built-in' isight

at the prices these new imacs are at, i'm very very surprised that they
don't offer an "ultimate" imac


for this config:
• 512MB DDR400 SDRAM - 1 DIMM
• 250GB Serial ATA drive
• AirPort Extreme Card
• Bluetooth Module
• iSight
• Bluetooth Module + Apple Wireless Keyboard & Mouse + Mac OS X - U.S. English
• 20-inch widescreen LCD
• 1.8GHz PowerPC G5
• SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
• NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra w/64MB video memory


Subtotal $2,451.00

isn't this still well below the top of the line g4 imac?



***edit***

update with info from apple-history

"The 17" model, with an 80 GB hard drive, 256 MB of RAM, 64 MB of VRAM, and a CD-RW/DVD-R "SuperDrive" was $1799.


In November 2003, Apple introduced a 20" flat-panel iMac, with specs otherwise identical to the 17" model, for $2,199. All models were discontinued in July 2004."


take off the isight and keyboard/mouse and you have

g5 1.8
extreme
bluetooth
250 gig hd
512 ram


for the same price as

g4 1.25
80 gig hd
256 ram

no extreme, no blue tooth.

quite a difference it seems

[joshua_msu]

Never really been a fan of the iMac's. Here you are paying for this pretty good display that will certainly outlast the usefulness of speed and components, and in the end, you are just tossing the display away. When anyone ever asks me what to get between a iMac and Powermac, I almost always recommend a Powermac, especailly if they already have a display.

[BeoVir]

i like it alot though, and if the vram would be at 128, i would likely bite.

comments?

(64mb of vram is max, right?)

After a search for geforce 5200 on nVidia's site I found this article...


Like previous GeForce architectures, the GeForce FX 5200 family utilizes DDR memory with a 128-bit memory interface. Up to 128MB of memory is supported, although we will see 64MB boards from some manufacturers.


So I think Apple has no excuse for not including 128mb at least as a buy to order!

[johnnyjibbs]

As I've said plenty of times before, Apple should provide OPTIONS OPTIONS OPTIONS!

It wouldn't harm to have a built-to-order iMac with 128 MB VRAM or a RADEON 9800 - many people who needed it would pay the extra cash to upgrade. And buying a G5 Tower is not always the solution - they are still more expensive and do not include a screen and are much more powerful.

[morkintosh]

i want wireless power, or at least imac with a battery - that way the new imac would compare to 2yr old dell laptops in size and weight :D :D :D

Tesla did some interetsing work on this a few years ago http://www.neuronet.pitt.edu/~bogdan/tesla/ ... I'm thinking Apple licensed some of it and we'll see this at next years WWDC :eek:

[Peyote]

I'm torn between the iMac and Powermac myself. I love the price and design of the iMac, and am pleased with the speed, however I really want a 23" screen. If Apple made the iMac in a 23" version, I'd be all over that, but they won't because I'm sure it'd eat into PM sales.

I don't think BT should be standard, but I think Aiprort should be...and never should the iSight be standard.

Regardless, 256MB of RAM is a joke, and the video card is almost as laughable.

[advocate]

Never really been a fan of the iMac's. Here you are paying for this pretty good display that will certainly outlast the usefulness of speed and components, and in the end, you are just tossing the display away.

Well, I would be selling the machine and recovering a lot of the money, not tossing it away, but in any case:

I think there's something missing to this argument. I only have to tell you what the the back of my desk looks like for you to see what I mean. I have cables going everywhere. Cables to carry power from the wall to power bricks, cables to carry power from power bricks to components, cables to carry keyboard and mouse signals around, cables to carry network signals around, cables to carry cable TV signals around, cables to carry audio around. Cables, cables, everywhere. Then there's the dust that settles in between cables, on the cables, around the connectors on the components, in the components, in the air filters that are supposed to protect the components but instead cause overheating, and so on. And all the computers are sitting on the ground (there's no way I'm putting them next to my ear, on the desk) sucking in all the floor-area dust. It's really disgusting to look at it.

Now, suppose I am ready to be rid of all of that. I would be happy to move my PVR machine (call it a home-brew Tivo) into the closet and watch the recorded shows streamed over the network. I would be happy to toss the Windows PC into a less work-oriented area. No more cables, no more dust inhaler, but no more computer, either.

Then I buy an iMac and put it on my desk. One power cord, no brick, goes into the wall. AE for network. BT keyboard and mouse. It's quiet so I don't mind it being up on my desk, off of the floor and away from the dust.

I think that sounds pretty darn nice.

[MarkCollette]

What do you need FW8 for? (In a consumer computer)

Pro model, yes. Well even maybe right now since very few devices support it.

Let's be realistic here. This is a consumer computer model. Not a pro model.

Sushi

Can anyone confirm if we need FW800 for HDTV (1080p), or if FW400 would suffice?

[Spock]

I must be missing the offensiveness in the post by jkaz. Also, although his post count is low, he's been posting for about seven months and has been around longer than about a quarter of the membership.

I also missed where jkaz argued that the iMac sucks for gaming.

Threads are free. I've yet to understand why people complain about new ones. It's not like the posts will take up less room if they add to an older thread, and sometimes it's nice to not have to dig through 500 previous posts to catch up on a thread so as to not have someone complain that your post was just like one 200 posts previously.

I agree with the VRAM/GPU complaints. I like that BT and AE are best left as options, although I think Apple should either make BT a user-upgradeable option without requiring an external 3rd party dongle or make it standard. I'd also like to see a DVI or VGA in port to allow the iMac to be used as a monitor for an external system.

And yes, I'm sure 300 other people have mentioned the same things.

Thank You I was thinking the same things.

[timsq]

The iMac is perfect in every way. At least for its intended purpose. The option that pushed me to the tower/powerbook is the left off DVI out. But with a 20" version, who can ask for a better iAppliance? My current iMac has kept up well for 3 yrs. Anyone picking up one of these beauties will be well served for at least that long. Now come Dual 3's!!!

[Chip NoVaMac]

Never really been a fan of the iMac's. Here you are paying for this pretty good display that will certainly outlast the usefulness of speed and components, and in the end, you are just tossing the display away. When anyone ever asks me what to get between a iMac and Powermac, I almost always recommend a Powermac, especailly if they already have a display.

Yeah, but we a disposable society. So if the system last 3 to 5 years for a persons needs, and the smaller foot print is what they are looking for, the iMac is the answer. There are those that also get caught up into the speed thing. Regardless if that speed will make a difference for their tasks.

[Chip NoVaMac]

As I've said plenty of times before, Apple should provide OPTIONS OPTIONS OPTIONS!

It wouldn't harm to have a built-to-order iMac with 128 MB VRAM or a RADEON 9800 - many people who needed it would pay the extra cash to upgrade. And buying a G5 Tower is not always the solution - they are still more expensive and do not include a screen and are much more powerful.

Given the Apple BTO program, I can only think that there are tech hurdles to offering 128mb VRAM. Heck, look at the extra amount they charge for 128mb VRAM in the PB 15" vs. the 17". It is a profit center. IMO it is not an issue of not wanting to compete with the PM G5 series, now that they are dual processors.

[jkaz]

after having read the messages here, i'm starting to think that in my perfect world, airport extreme, bluetooth and even built-in isight

would be a standard feature on all macs just as firewire and usb are.


the potential for all of these products is great but are currently under utilized.

instead of the aforementioned items being the bto options, i see the potential, desire and the rumors taking the apple in the direction
of media center.

remote controls, digital tv recording, internet streaming all from your 30 inch imac.

this is the direction i see coming very soon.


i'm impressed by the design and the processor, but simply having the same old bluetooth and airport and even isight as your only spruce it up options has run its course for me.

[andiwm2003]

after having read the messages here, i'm starting to think that in my perfect world, airport extreme, bluetooth and even built-in isight

would be a standard feature on all macs just as firewire and usb are.


the potential for all of these products is great but are currently under utilized.

instead of the aforementioned items being the bto options, i see the potential, desire and the rumors taking the apple in the direction
of media center.

remote controls, digital tv recording, internet streaming all from your 30 inch imac.

this is the direction i see coming very soon.


i'm impressed by the design and the processor, but simply having the same old bluetooth and airport and even isight as your only spruce it up options has run its course for me.

my word. i totally agree. i wonder how expensive a 30" imac would be though.

andi

[Xtremehkr]

The new iMac is great, it's more than I expected it to be. I wasn not expecting an update anytime soon, not a complete update anyway. Not only did we get an update but the iMac now gets a G5 processor and has shrunk into basically just a screen.
I am going to order Bluetooth for mine but I can see why it is not an industry standard yet. The only thing I will use BT with is my PDA because nothing else I have is wired for it right now. So that's $45 to get rid of one USB line. Eventually I will have everything connected wirelessly but BT printers are still a new item. It will be a while before everything has bluetooth and everyone has new equipment. I'm glad Apple is pioneering the technology, but it isn't the same as USB. USB was such a clear improvement while not costing that much more.
As far as a camera being standard, I think that would be premature also. Not enough people have the internet connections necessary to really use a camera online. Just not enough people are interested in it yet. Apple obviously has more plans for camera use for communication onlineand tout the ability to have multiple people involved in a video conference. It would add cost to the iMac and would be a feature that most people would not know what to do with for a while.
What Apple does need to do is fix the graphics card problem. I'm not really a gamer. I like CIV 3 and games like that but recognize how important game playing ability is right now with young computer buyers. If someone asks you what kind of computer you have and you say Dell, then there is the possibility that it is a good gaming machine. If you say you have an Apple then it is automatically perceived that you have a poor gaming machine. I know that it has little to do with how good the computer and software is but a lot of decisions are made based on social reasons.
Apple is winning with the iPod, but it is giving the consumer exactly what it wants. I know that the vision for Apple computers is different from that of being a gaming machine. With iLife your Apple is the processing center for all of your creativity. Where you can combine, create and produce almost anything you like. Which is enough for me, personally I find that more rewarding than playing games. But games are fun and more popular than ever right now.
And since iMac is the model more likely to be purchased by young people and students it should have better gaming abilities. It's going to be side by side with PCs in dorms, if Apple starting beating PCs there it is going to make a lasting impression. If not standard that at least as an option.
I know that it probably takes away from the "vision" behind the iMac, but when you are selling more and the extra production has lowered overall costs you can think about incorporating more features. I would meet the needs of the market place first. With a killer graphics cards I can't see how you could say that there is a better PC out there right now.

[jkaz]

so for the ultimate machine, we have:

23"
built-in:
ae
bt
standard 512 ram
upgrade to 128 vram
bluetooth remote control
fax/telephone capabilities
the capability to use as digital tv recorder
and maybe a 'built-in' isight

at the prices these new imacs are at, i'm very very surprised that they
don't offer an "ultimate" imac


for this config:
• 512MB DDR400 SDRAM - 1 DIMM
• 250GB Serial ATA drive
• AirPort Extreme Card
• Bluetooth Module
• iSight
• Bluetooth Module + Apple Wireless Keyboard & Mouse + Mac OS X - U.S. English
• 20-inch widescreen LCD
• 1.8GHz PowerPC G5
• SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
• NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra w/64MB video memory


Subtotal $2,451.00

isn't this still well below the top of the line g4 imac?



***edit***

update with info from apple-history

"The 17" model, with an 80 GB hard drive, 256 MB of RAM, 64 MB of VRAM, and a CD-RW/DVD-R "SuperDrive" was $1799.


In November 2003, Apple introduced a 20" flat-panel iMac, with specs otherwise identical to the 17" model, for $2,199. All models were discontinued in July 2004."


take off the isight and keyboard/mouse and you have

g5 1.8
extreme
bluetooth
250 gig hd
512 ram


for the same price as

g4 1.25
80 gig hd
256 ram

no extreme, no blue tooth.

quite a difference it seems



look at these figures, tho, xtremehkr.

if you add the bluetooth and airport extreme to the 20in, you are in the same price range AND have more hd, processor and ram.

apple could have easily had a 'high end standard' for personal computers by loading it with the 250 hd, one chip of 512 ram, bluetooh, extreme, and if they could have given the option of 128 ram, make it only available in the top top model.


i don't know video cards very well, but i'm not going to buy a new computer that has a lesser video card than a friend of mine that just bought a powerbook with a better one.

[Xtremehkr]

look at these figures, tho, xtremehkr.

if you add the bluetooth and airport extreme to the 20in, you are in the same price range AND have more hd, processor and ram.

apple could have easily had a 'high end standard' for personal computers by loading it with the 250 hd, one chip of 512 ram, bluetooh, extreme, and if they could have given the option of 128 ram, make it only available in the top top model.


i don't know video cards very well, but i'm not going to buy a new computer that has a lesser video card than a friend of mine that just bought a powerbook with a better one.

Maybe there will be an ultimate model that will be announced in time. I don't mind that iMacs have one or two features that are beaten by a PC. From what I recall the 20" iMac comes with a 160GB HD that for $90 more can be upgraded to 250G, not bad. You're right about the Extreme though, there are wireless cities now and that technology is almost standard. Memory I am not all that worried about either, a one gig upgrade and you have quite a lot, probably as much as I would need.

Apple's strength lays in the overall combination of hardware, software and design. Apart from the graphics card, other weaknesses are small by comparison. When looking at the strengths though there are many that Apple has now.

The design is superb, and not many people expected the G5 to become a standard. The software though it way under rated in my opinion. iPhoto, Mail, Safari, iMovie, iDvd, Mail, iSync, iCal and even Appleworks are all great and very reliable programs that make life a lot easier. Not to mention the OS which makes Bill Gates cry.

Given the overall picture I stand by the iMac as being the best deal out there right now. But I would pay a little more for a better graphics card, or to be able to put a better one in there.

Especially if this new iMac lasts as long as my old one is. I don't really need a new Apple, I just want one. How often do you hear people complaining about how long their computers last because they have no excuse to get themselves a new one?

I think that if gaming weren't so popular right now the new iMac would be cleaning up the competition, by the consumer focus is on gaming right now. Meet the demands of the market with Apples standards and I don't see how they can go wrong.

[g3ski]

Yes, it sucks for gaming.

If it's compared to the top of the line PC/Mac.....

but it kicks A55 on my not so old Dual 867Mhz G4 Tower with a Radeon 8500 card. I'd take it for gaming. :D

[Little Endian]

All those who are unhappy with the new G5 imacs should just buy a PowerMac. I myself am going to get a PowerMac instead of getting another imac. Sure people say that the PowerMacs are too expensive but you pay the same amount when you look at things 4-5 years down the Road. Over a 4-5 year period one can easily go through two imacs while a PowerMac like todays Dual G5 lineup could last 4-5 years before having to get a new machine. Not to mention the time savings one would enjoy on the Power Mac.

[jxyama]

Can anyone confirm if we need FW800 for HDTV (1080p), or if FW400 would suffice?

i'm pretty sure FW400 is sufficient for HDTV.

1) a lot of HD boxes come with FW400 interface
2) standard broadcase can be handled by USB1. (ex. eyeTV USB) HD is more signal but i don't think it's so much that FW400 can't handle it.

[gotohamish]

Advice to you newbie, not a way to make friends here. Neither is starting a thread on something like this when there are a ton of them out there. No offense, but this has been brought up already. A lot.

I agree that the VRAM is a little skimpy, but as someone who doesn't play video games it doesn't matter to me. Neither does Airport or BT (or camera). I'd rather not pay for them, and for those who do, adding them is pretty easy. That's all Fuzzy meant (though you could be a little nicer to the newb, we were all new at one point). It's too bad Apple doesn't also give you a way to upgrade the video card when you buy it like with the PowerBooks, but I guess that's what the Towers are for. Maybe Apple will come out with a low end Tower soon, but I'm not holding my breath.

Unfortunetly the iMac is not for you. Understandable. But people are kinda sick of hearing about this. Yes, it sucks for gaming. E-mail Apple to complain. Then join the New iMac thread.

I hear your point, but how many of us would play games, IF our Macs had good enough graphics cards?