So what about the new Mac Pro?

[mtatfluler]

Due to the updated MacBook Pros, is it unlikely that Apple update it's Mac Pro line at NAB 2010 now?

If so, when do you think the next possible refresh date could be?

Thanks,

Matt

[nanofrog]

Correct, as the NAB rumor is a fake. Take a look here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=9660356&postcount=4) (post with links to sources that confirm it's fake).

[mtatfluler]

Hmmm disappointing! Do you have any guesses as to when we might see an update?

[YMark]

Why do you really care? What is with all these newbies asking about updates the same day an update occurs? :rolleyes:

Buy one or don't.

[mtatfluler]

Why do you really care? What is with all these newbies asking about updates the same day an update occurs? :rolleyes:

Buy one or don't.

Brilliant, just because I didn't sign up to this particular website before you, thus have the 'newbie' status, you automatically assume I don't know what I am talking about.

Perhaps I care because it is obvious that it will be updated soon. I'm not going to buy old technology, and was just wondering if anyone had any ideas as to when they could be released.

Why waste you time posting ridiculous and inappropriate comments?

[shabbasuraj]

Brilliant, just because I didn't sign up to this particular website before you, thus have the 'newbie' status, you automatically assume I don't know what I am talking about.

Perhaps I care because it is obvious that it will be updated soon. I'm not going to buy old technology, and was just wondering if anyone had any ideas as to when they could be released.

Why waste you time posting ridiculous and inappropriate comments?

No MacSlows till the end of summer.

and then after that... no more................................ forever.

[grue]

No MacSlows till the end of summer.

and then after that... no more................................ forever.

Hey look, more people making **** up! I love this site.

[J the Ninja]

Hey look, more people making **** up! I love this site.

I herd that Applez is selling teh final cutz

and that u liek mudkipz

[tekboi]

Frankly, I think they just don't give a **** about us pro users. That's why they updated the macbook pro when the macpro is over a year out of date. But, as the dude said above... if you want an overpriced outdated piece of hardware, buy it!
:rolleyes:

[mtatfluler]

Frankly, I think they just don't give a **** about us pro users. That's why they updated the macbook pro when the macpro is over a year out of date. But, as the dude said above... if you want an overpriced outdated piece of hardware, buy it!
:rolleyes:

lol I'm starting to think I'll have no other choice but to!

However, if what Jobs said about Final Cut Pro is true - "It is alive and well", then surely he still does have the professionals in mind and will need to update soon!

[Techhie]

Frankly, I think they just don't give a **** about us pro users. That's why they updated the macbook pro when the macpro is over a year out of date. But, as the dude said above... if you want an overpriced outdated piece of hardware, buy it!
:rolleyes:

The MacBook pro was in more dire need of an update. Sure, the 2009 Mac Pro is looking like a really bad deal, but the previous C2D MBPs were virtual rip-offs. If I were in the same position, I would have made the same move.

[mtatfluler]

True, I think it is fair to say they were/are both in need of an update. But if the MPs aren't going to be updated at NAB, I just don't know when they will be!

[reel2reel]

Would anyone here say the current Mac Pro's are not worth buying? Just wondering. Even if a refresh took place tomorrow, I'd still want to wait for a b-rev to work out the bugs. You could wait forever, it seems. At least the current machines are stable, unless I'm missing something.

So.....Maybe one of the current models could be a wise purchase, especially if your livelihood depends on it.

:confused:

[mtatfluler]

Would anyone here say the current Mac Pro's are not worth buying? Just wondering. Even if a refresh took place tomorrow, I'd still want to wait for a b-rev to work out the bugs. You could wait forever, it seems. At least the current machines are stable, unless I'm missing something.

So.....Maybe one of the current models could be a wise purchase, especially if your livelihood depends on it.

:confused:

The current MP's are absolutely worth buying and are very good machines. However, (this is probably said a lot) I just know how annoyed and disappointed I'll be If I did buy a current model, and it was updated soon after.

[nanofrog]

Hmmm disappointing! Do you have any guesses as to when we might see an update?
There's been some information that they'll be out sometime between now and June 2010. Nice that they nailed it down. :rolleyes: :D :p

At this point though, figure June means last day of June, so the wait wouldn't be but 2.5 months. So it would be a good idea to wait it out IMO, to see what happens.

and then after that... no more................................ forever.
Where are you getting this?
Granted, I do think it's days are numbered (as it currently exists), but there's parts that can be used (Xeon) through 2013 going by Intel's published road maps.

However, if what Jobs said about Final Cut Pro is true - "It is alive and well", then surely he still does have the professionals in mind and will need to update soon!
Forget a grain, take what he says with a large handful of salt. He won't tell us if they're going to kill it, as it would affect sales of the last version made.

That said, we don't know for sure. It's possible that the MP's could disappear, but the software remain in development to be run on iMacs. Or on a really rare note (if the iMac and Mini see their demise as well), license OS X for other machines which would allow the OS X versions of professional software to continue even without an actual Mac in desktop form.

Would anyone here say the current Mac Pro's are not worth buying? Just wondering. Even if a refresh took place tomorrow, I'd still want to wait for a b-rev to work out the bugs. You could wait forever, it seems. At least the current machines are stable, unless I'm missing something.

So.....Maybe one of the current models could be a wise purchase, especially if your livelihood depends on it.

:confused:
It would depend on the specifics, such as actual need + budget + time frame you need a system.

Earning a living typically translates to immediate need, so a system now can earn it's keep. But you can choose between an '08 (if available) and an '09 model. In some cases with current software (can't take advantage of Nehalem's architecture differences from the Harpertowns used in the '08's), the '08 would give you better bang for your buck (best performance for the lowest cost).

[rajbonham]

This really stinks. If Apple doesn't release the new Mac Pros within the next few days, I might have to (*gasp*) cave and actually purchase a current model. :(

I've said it today already and I'll say it again; if Apple chooses to not update their "professional" Mac workstation during NAB, they are simply foolish. I'm shocked they chose to update the MBP smack in the middle of NAB, especially when 90% of the people using MBP are merely watching YouTube videos and writing term papers... :rolleyes:

[nanofrog]

I'm shocked they chose to update the MBP smack in the middle of NAB, especially when 90% of the people using MBP are merely watching YouTube videos and writing term papers... :rolleyes:
Why?

Users may only be doing the equivalent of picking their nose with it, but they sell better than the MP's do IIRC the recent article on profit breakdowns. Which generates a larger slice of the net profits per quarter.

[shabbasuraj]

T. If Apple doesn't release the new Mac Pros within the next few days, I might have to (*gasp*) cave and actually purchase a current model. :(
:


Trust me, you will cave then.





There WILL BE NO MacSlows introduced anytime soon.



Again, none in the near future. Apple has a glut of current machines they can't get rid of. (go check the refurb stores of various country sites). At a few times in the recent past, there were nearly a dozen different MacSlow configs available in the refurb stores.



ya it sux .

[shabbasuraj]

Granted, I do think it's days are numbered (as it currently exists), but there's parts that can be used (Xeon) through 2013 going by Intel's published road maps.

Yes parts will be available for some time,

... but it won't matter to most , once they have bought the eventual replacement to the current MacSlows.

[rajbonham]

Why?

Users may only be doing the equivalent of picking their nose with it, but they sell better than the MP's do IIRC the recent article on profit breakdowns. Which generates a larger slice of the net profits per quarter.

I totally understand that, and the MBP does sell better, but I'm just talking about the timing. Because of NAB, this is how I honestly see things:

Mac Pro

April NAB Release: WAY more sales.
May/June Release: Average to less sales.

MacBook Pro

April NAB Release: Lot's of sales.
May/June Release: Lot's of sales.

It just seems that no matter when you release the portable Mac computers, they are still going to sell. Since the Mac Pro has a much more narrow, specific market, it would seem timing is everything to boost sales.

Then again, I'm sure the Apple marketing team knows a hell of a lot more than I do about these things. :)

[rajbonham]

Trust me, you will cave then.





There WILL BE NO MacSlows introduced anytime soon.



Again, none in the near future. Apple has a glut of current machines they can't get rid of. (go check the refurb stores of various country sites). At a few times in the recent past, there were nearly a dozen different MacSlow configs available in the refurb stores.



ya it sux .

You have been posting a lot of things like this recently. I think we're all wondering how you are obtaining this information. Unfortunately, as it stands now, all your information appears to be quite "shady".

[mtatfluler]

It just seems that no matter when you release the portable Mac computers, they are still going to sell. Since the Mac Pro has a much more narrow, specific market, it would seem timing is everything to boost sales.



Very true! I too am struggling to see another relevant/good time for the updated MP's to be released! :confused:

[rajbonham]

Very true! I too am struggling to see another relevant/good time for the updated MP's to be released! :confused:

Yep, honestly the only reason I could see Apple not updating the Mac Pro right now, is if there are shortages of any of the part(s) used in the Mac Pro. If that is the case, I just wish something would come out saying, "Hey, these new Mac Pros probably won't be out until _____ because of _____".

Of course, we know that will never happen. :p

[pooryou]

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro

[mtatfluler]

Wishful thinking ay! ;)

So are Apple actually attending NAB? If so, what time are they down to do whatever they plan to do?

[rajbonham]

Wishful thinking ay! ;)

So are Apple actually attending NAB? If so, what time are they down to do whatever they plan to do?

No. It would appear that another company, Integrated Media Technologies is holding an event tomorrow afternoon. The only tie in seems to be that they will be using Apple products to demonstrate whatever they are doing. It also appears to be a very private event.

Or it could be Apple just holding a very secret meeting. As much as I want it to be true, I find this very, very, very unlikely.

[fhall1]

Frankly, I think they just don't give a **** about us pro users. That's why they updated the macbook pro when the macpro is over a year out of date. But, as the dude said above... if you want an overpriced outdated piece of hardware, buy it!
:rolleyes:

You guys are sounding like Mini owners were when they were up to month 18 before the new Mini models were released.

[fhall1]

Brilliant, just because I didn't sign up to this particular website before you, thus have the 'newbie' status, you automatically assume I don't know what I am talking about.

Perhaps I care because it is obvious that it will be updated soon. I'm not going to buy old technology, and was just wondering if anyone had any ideas as to when they could be released.

Why waste you time posting ridiculous and inappropriate comments?

What he's saying is there are numerous other threads here asking when people think a new Pro will be released so there was no need to start another one.

[telequest]

It's possible that the MP's could disappear, but the software remain in development to be run on iMacs. Or on a really rare note (if the iMac and Mini see their demise as well), license OS X for other machines which would allow the OS X versions of professional software to continue even without an actual Mac in desktop form.

What about this? If Apple decides it can't profit from making its own Mac Pros, might it do a limited licensing program for another company or two to make high-end clones? Unlike their clone program in the 90s, they could choose to limit the licenses to specific high-end models that did not compete with iMacs or MacBooks. And they could include an Apple certification process so that quality and stability would be maintained. Really just a form of subcontracting, but possibly co-branded with the actual manufacturer (I dunno, HP or somebody like that). Seems like it could be a win-win-win: Apple wins from license revenues without undercutting its own profitable lines; partner company wins from hardware profits; users win by having a motivated producer of up-to-date hardware.

Or is this simply such a non-Steve thing that it just can't happen?

[xgman]

What he's saying is there are numerous other threads here asking when people think a new Pro will be released so there was no need to start another one.


Notwithstanding this forums rules, I disagree, the more threads the better. maybe Apple will take notice. Out of sight, out of mind. And by the way, I agree with the above post, Apple should (but won't anytime soon) license the OS out. It's ok for windows to run on mac but not the other way around? Doesn't seem right.

[Firebar]

Are people forgetting that its more likely due to Apple waiting for readily available Tech - i.e; the new Xeon's.... ?

I'd hazard a guess at June time-frame for general availability of the new Mac Pro ;)

[parakiet]

Last Release March 03, 2009
Days Since Update 407

:eek: is it that long , dmnd!

[gotzero]

The MR update cycle gets biased sometimes by minor updates. As far as architectures, there have only been 3 iterations of the Mac Pro since 2006 (all of which were current for over a year). Even if the Mac Pro was not profitable, which I seriously doubt, it will be around for a long time to come.

I think that the MP and XServe are just as safe in the product line as the laptops...

[Wild-Bill]

Are people forgetting that its more likely due to Apple waiting for readily available Tech - i.e; the new Xeon's.... ?

I'd hazard a guess at June time-frame for general availability of the new Mac Pro ;)

Uhh...... I believe the hexa-core Xeons are already out. Hence the multiple questions about where it is.

People, you need your voices to be heard by Apple. Submit feedback and ask Apple why the Mac Pro is on the "pay no mind" list.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macpro.html

And while you are there, tell them to includt the Radeon 5870XT as an option. :p

[Umbongo]

Uhh...... I believe the hexa-core Xeons are already out. Hence the multiple questions about where it is.

People, you need your voices to be heard by Apple. Submit feedback and ask Apple why the Mac Pro is on the "pay no mind" list.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macpro.html

And while you are there, tell them to includt the Radeon 5870XT as an option. :p

They may have been released but the 5600 series 6 core Xeons are in very short supply at the moment.

[Wild-Bill]

They may have been released but the 5600 series 6 core Xeons are in very short supply at the moment.

Provantage has them in stock, so if resellers have them, you can bet your bottom dollar that Apple does (or can).

Provantage 6-Core Xeons (http://www.provantage.com/scripts/search.dll?SEC=&QUERY=177511+xeon+x56&Submit.x=0&Submit.y=0)

[nanofrog]

posted what I was in the middle of typing... :(

[nanofrog]

Yes parts will be available for some time,

... but it won't matter to most , once they have bought the eventual replacement to the current MacSlows.
You're making no logical sense here. No real explaination or support.

Because of NAB...
Mac Pro

April NAB Release: WAY more sales.
May/June Release: Average to less sales.

The MP is a niche product, and those that need one, do their research. That is, they pay very close attention to any information that's released (leaks, official announcements; including Intel,...). So it's much more immune/insulated than consumer products in terms of release dates & sales. People will wait if at all possible, otherwise if its immediate need, they'll buy what's currently available, as it's earning an income.

What about this? If Apple decides it can't profit from making its own Mac Pros, might it do a limited licensing program for another company or two to make high-end clones? Unlike their clone program in the 90s, they could choose to limit the licenses to specific high-end models that did not compete with iMacs or MacBooks. And they could include an Apple certification process so that quality and stability would be maintained. Really just a form of subcontracting, but possibly co-branded with the actual manufacturer (I dunno, HP or somebody like that). Seems like it could be a win-win-win: Apple wins from license revenues without undercutting its own profitable lines; partner company wins from hardware profits; users win by having a motivated producer of up-to-date hardware.

Or is this simply such a non-Steve thing that it just can't happen?
As it stands, the MP is already contracted out to ODM's. They don't touch the software side however.

What you propose isn't likely at all, given their penchant for secrecy, and most importantly, absolute control. Licensing OS X while other systems they sell still uses it (full OS X, not the device variant/s), would sacrifice control.

My earlier comments on licensing is based on the premise that Apple ends everything but the portable device market (nothing that runs full OS X any longer). This would put them in a position that they essentially have to, as they'd no longer produce (sell, as the hardware is ODM'ed save the enclosure) a system that they can use as a developer platform.

They may have been released but the 5600 series 6 core Xeons are in very short supply at the moment.
I'm not sure if they're having slow start issues with the 32nm process, or are holding parts for large volume contracts in order to meet delivery deadlines set within them.

But getting your hands on one via the retail channels isn't that easy yet.

Provantage has them in stock, so if resellers have them, you can bet your bottom dollar that Apple does (or can).

Provantage 6-Core Xeons (http://www.provantage.com/scripts/search.dll?SEC=&QUERY=177511+xeon+x56&Submit.x=0&Submit.y=0)
I took a look, and they had 1 part in stock (Q = 1) of a Retail X5670. Everything else was listed as special order/out of stock.

They could be storing/stockpiling parts for an order made by Apple (and other vendors) to meet the negotiated delivery date & quantity schedule (parts are shipped over time, so it's not one massive delivery).

[shinji]

Apple won't discontinue the Mac Pro. They need and want people to buy Final Cut and the rest of their pro apps. The Mac Pro is the ideal platform for that.

They probably haven't updated because they view dual quad-core nehalems as being more than adequate for running those pro apps and are waiting for something major before updating them.

[sgunes]

I am afraid that by the time Apple comes out with the new MacPros (speculations up to June) they will have new iMacs in the wings.
With the last iMac update the Core i7 iMac came close to the octocore MP in performance (except for the lousy ATI graphics card). As Apple is going to update the graphics on the iMacs soon, it seems there will be almost an overlap between the fastest iMac and the slowest MP. Given the much higher volume and relatively lower price, an iMac with an ATI 5XXX graphics card, the 27inch monitor and a fast quad-core would be an excellent value.

[gotzero]

With the last iMac update the Core i7 iMac came close to the octocore MP in performance (except for the lousy ATI graphics card).

How is this true? Maybe for single-core speed, but if that is what you are after, then you would not be considering an 8-core Mac Pro in the first place.

There is no perfect bench test, but single-core speed is almost irrelevant.

[nanofrog]

...but single-core speed is almost irrelevant.
Not true, as most software is still single threaded (and some will remain that way, such as word processing or any other application that depends on keyboard input for data).

[Icaras]

Apple won't discontinue the Mac Pro. They need and want people to buy Final Cut and the rest of their pro apps. The Mac Pro is the ideal platform for that.

They probably haven't updated because they view dual quad-core nehalems as being more than adequate for running those pro apps and are waiting for something major before updating them.

It may be the ideal machine for pro apps such as FCP, but it may not be the ideal business model for Apple anymore.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the next biggest thing would be the next processor update, which would be in 2011, right?

[fearoftigers]

I7 Mac Pros anyone?

http://www.cultofmac.com/i7-mac-pros-comming/38057

[rajbonham]

I7 Mac Pros anyone?

http://www.cultofmac.com/i7-mac-pros-comming/38057

Considering there was a spelling error in the title of the article, um, well, yeah...:rolleyes:

[shinji]

It may be the ideal machine for pro apps such as FCP, but it may not be the ideal business model for Apple anymore.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, the next biggest thing would be the next processor update, which would be in 2011, right?

I don't think the Mac Pro and the Power Mac before it were ever the ideal business model for Apple. By definition, a higher cost product targeted at professionals rather than the mass market won't sell as much as a consumer electronics device like an iPod or iPhone.

Doesn't mean it's not still profitable, and doesn't mean Apple will abandon the Mac Pro and the pro apps that are designed for it. I just don't think the iMac is meant to be the future platform for Apple's pro apps.

[Umbongo]

Provantage has them in stock, so if resellers have them, you can bet your bottom dollar that Apple does (or can).

Provantage 6-Core Xeons (http://www.provantage.com/scripts/search.dll?SEC=&QUERY=177511+xeon+x56&Submit.x=0&Submit.y=0)

I clicked that link, they have 1 processor in stock, 2 back ordered and 7 available for special order so that doesn't really support them being readily available.

[Wild-Bill]

I7 Mac Pros anyone?

http://www.cultofmac.com/i7-mac-pros-comming/38057

FAKE. First, I believe the current Mac Pro model is 4,1. Second, 12 gigs of DDR-2 memory?????? The current Intel architecture uses DDR-3.

Third, the OSX build would be different. The current build is 10D573.

Also, I think it's been proven before that you can alter some meta file to produce Geekbench results like that.

[Wild-Bill]

I clicked that link, they have 1 processor in stock, 2 back ordered and 7 available for special order so that doesn't really support them being readily available.

To be fair, when I posted it earlier there were 22 in stock of the retail 2.66 version. But it will be fun to revisit the link from time to time to see their stock levels.

Remember, this is just one retailer.

[rajbonham]

FAKE. First, I believe the current Mac Pro model is 4,1. Second, 12 gigs of DDR-2 memory?????? The current Intel architecture uses DDR-3.

Third, the OSX build would be different. The current build is 10D573.

Also, I think it's been proven before that you can alter some meta file to produce Geekbench results like that.

Haha, DDR-2 memory! Good call. Not that I even came close to believing that was real to begin with...

[Transporteur]

I7 Mac Pros anyone?

http://www.cultofmac.com/i7-mac-pros-comming/38057


It is, and has always been possible to put an desktop i7 processor in the Quad Mac Pro. That's not new news. However, the linked page probably shows a hackintosh since the memory type doesn't match the current Mac Pro line.

[sgunes]

FAKE. First, I believe the current Mac Pro model is 4,1. Second, 12 gigs of DDR-2 memory?????? The current Intel architecture uses DDR-3.

Third, the OSX build would be different. The current build is 10D573.

Also, I think it's been proven before that you can alter some meta file to produce Geekbench results like that.

The other problems are that the Model number is "A" and not "25".
Stepping "5" means it is a D0 revision (http://www.overclock.net/attachments/intel-cpus/105971d1240086401-looks-like-i-got-d0-stepping-d0a2.jpg). As stated i7 will not work with DDR-2.
It is just a standard hackintosh, like Cindori's.

[Tonytownsend]

They could tell us a release date. It not like an ipad or iphone. People in the market for a mac pro are not like Ipad buyers. A lot of apple product are sold off hype. Apple doesnt just realese a product. They have to make a big deal of it.

[rajbonham]

They could tell us a release date. It not like an ipad or iphone. People in the market for a mac pro are not like Ipad buyers. A lot of apple product are sold off hype. Apple doesnt just realese a product. They have to make a big deal of it.

Sorry, but that's not going to happen. As for saying Apple "has to make a big deal", that just isn't true. The updated MacBook Pros yesterday were a "silent" release. No big media event or keynote, only an update on the Apple website.

Apple isn't going to give us an advance notice of any releases either. Why you ask? They are still selling their current machines. For every one of us patiently waiting for the updated models, "x" amount of people buy the current models. If people knew when and where a new model was coming they wouldn't waste their time on the current model.

[leekohler]

lol I'm starting to think I'll have no other choice but to!

However, if what Jobs said about Final Cut Pro is true - "It is alive and well", then surely he still does have the professionals in mind and will need to update soon!

He may have us in mind, but we're an afterthought.

[tekboi]

http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#Mac_Pro

It's been saying "update imminent" for over 4 months now. So, that page means absolutely NOTHING.

[pooryou]

It's been saying "update imminent" for over 4 months now. So, that page means absolutely NOTHING.

LOL, it still is valid information. :rolleyes:
You should never take the 'buying advice' part literally, it's just a guideline.

[Firebar]

Uhh...... I believe the hexa-core Xeons are already out. Hence the multiple questions about where it is.

People, you need your voices to be heard by Apple. Submit feedback and ask Apple why the Mac Pro is on the "pay no mind" list.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macpro.html

And while you are there, tell them to includt the Radeon 5870XT as an option. :p

Using the site you linked to later on, the only in-stock chip is the X5670. That isn't a Nehalem-EX part, it's Westmere-EP. I'm pretty sure Apple would be waiting for Nehalem-EX and Boxboro chipset.

[Umbongo]

Using the site you linked to later on, the only in-stock chip is the X5670. That isn't a Nehalem-EX part, it's Westmere-EP. I'm pretty sure Apple would be waiting for Nehalem-EX and Boxboro chipset.

They are not waiting for Nehalem-EX, the next Mac Pros will be Westmere-EP. Nehalem-EX are suited for 4 processor+ servers, not workstations.

[Firebar]

They are not waiting for Nehalem-EX, the next Mac Pros will be Westmere-EP. Nehalem-EX are suited for 4 processor+ servers, not workstations.

Is this for certain? 8C and 10C processors up for grabs with the Nehalem-EX.

[Umbongo]

Is this for certain? 8C and 10C processors up for grabs with the Nehalem-EX.

Yes. There are many reasons why, but the price alone should be an indicator. The fastest 8 core processor tops out at 2.26GHz and costs $2,000 more than the DP 3.33GHz 6 core.

[xgman]

For every one of us patiently waiting for the updated models, "x" amount of people buy the current models. If people knew when and where a new model was coming they wouldn't waste their time on the current model.

PC Makers have always pre-announced their products, in some cases way in advance and they don't seem o be having any problems. Quite the contrary, I used to upgrade my PC's 2 or 3 times a year.

[nick9191]

Frankly, I think they just don't give a **** about us pro users. That's why they updated the macbook pro...

Obvious fail is obvious?

[Umbongo]

PC Makers have always pre-announced their products, in some cases way in advance and they don't seem o be having any problems. Quite the contrary, I used to upgrade my PC's 2 or 3 times a year.

You don't see this in the Workstation arena very often.

[nanofrog]

You don't see this in the Workstation arena very often.
Only when there's a new chip series. :rolleyes: ;) :p

[grue]

I herd that Applez is selling teh final cutz

and that u liek mudkipz



I LUUUURVE MUDKIPZ :eek: