iMac 27 inch and gaming

[palebluedot]

I was waiting to buy a new Macbook Pro but as soon as they were released today I said "meh" and decided maybe I should buy a brand new iMac and keep my Early 08 MBP. I want to get a new Mac in preparation for the upcoming launch of Steam on OS X and just because mine is long in the tooth for Windows gaming.

Anyways... I just had a thought and was wondering if any owners could clear it up. The resolution on the 27 i7 Quad Core seems ENORMOUS for a middle-grade ATI GPU. Are you able to game on high settings for semi-modern games like L4D2, TF2, etc. at the 27"'s native resolution? What are your thoughts on it as a gaming machine. It seems like the 27" will obsolete itself quicker than a i5/i7 21 inch (if one ever comes out) due to the screen resolution size.

[TMRaven]

The extra resolution doesn't effect games as much as people say. From my experiences with games like SC2 beta, dirt2 and modern warfare, going from the native 2560x1440 resolution to 1920x1080 resolution only nets you around 8-10 fps on average.
The real kicker is anti-aliasing, because enough of it will usually max out the amount of available bandwidth the gpu has.

Speaking of bandwidth-- the mobility 4850 in the iMac is no where near a "middle-grade gpu." I mean sure you could say it is middle-grade to the desktop counterparts, but we're making an argument here that there will never be a desktop grade discrete gpu in a form-factor such as the iMac. The mobility 4850 is designated as a "high-end notebook" mobile gpu and is one of the few mobile gpus that sports a 256 bit bus. Even most of the newer ati mobility 5k series are lesser performing than mobility 4850, with smaller buses. Only mobility 4870 and 5870 are superior as far as mobile ati cards.


As far as actual performance? I get:

30 fps out of dirt2 with max resolution and graphics settings; 4xaa
50 fps out of starcraft2 beta with max resolution and max graphics settings, save shaders to high (current shaders in sc2 seem to be bugged out-- at least for ati cards)
60 fps out of modern warfare1 with max resolution and max graphics settings; 4xaa

[natewsmith]

I asked the people there at Apple and they said it was a REAL desktop version of the ATI card.

[Lifequest]

Yes I was under the impression that the iMacs sport the ATI 4850 desktop, not "mobility". Can someone confirm?

Regardless, the 4850 Mobility (1069 RANK 40) and 4850 (1334 RANK 22).
We're getting - if i'm correct - a rank 22 Video Card.
Yeah...rip off. But I'm happy. Not an intense gamer.

Friend just built a custom PC for $2k, it rips my $3k (australia) iMac in any benchmarks.

Oh sorry, GPU benchmarks here, ALSO, many new GPUs not added to the list, so the 4850 is actually lower ranked...
http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu_list.php

[BulletToothTony]

just so u know after messing around with cod4 i wasn't able to run the Native Resolution on my 27" C2D 3.06 imac but when i lowered the resolution to 1920x1080 i was able to MAX all settings.

the i5 n i7 have a better video card i believe.. but at least now u know a trick. and to be perfectly honest i could NOT tell the difference between native and 1080p

either way cod4 ran smooth and i'm sure l4d or scs will do as well

[Badger^2]

http://www.barefeats.com/imi7g2.html

http://www.barefeats.com/imi7g.html

If gaming is all you care about then I see a PC or PS3 or Xbox in your future.

[Rodus]

The 4850 in the iMac is definitely a mobility model, if you use ATI's drivers catalyst drivers then it even identifies as such, running with a core speed of 500 Mhz and VRAM speed of 850 Mhz, however you can happily overclock it to desktop GPU speeds and beyond. I'm running at 670 Mhz/970 Mhz and with SMC fan control it doesn't get over 65 c.

the i5 n i7 have a better video card i believ
yup, 4850 in the ix models, 4670 in the Core 2.

[alanwong]

Friend just built a custom PC for $2k, it rips my $3k (australia) iMac in any benchmarks.

Have actually heard the suggest that one build a ~$1k PC and hook it up to the iMac (as a screen) if you really wanted to game... :p

[Kinoko]

I'm also thinking about buying an 27" iMac, my first mac ever. I want the better GPU, because I plan on doing some occasional gaming that requires it, but I'm still torn between the i5 and i7. I fail to find any conclusive answers to if the i7 would provide me with something more than the i5, especially in terms of gaming, would I even notice the difference?

The difference between i7 and i5 for me is 170€ (230$, 150£). I don't need newish games to blow me away, I just want them to work smoothly after paying 2000€ for a computer :p. (..the 170€ would buy me a nice wii that I've been planing to buy for ages..)

tl;dr: i5 or i7, gaming. does it make a difference?

[NATO]

I don't think it makes much difference between the i5 and i7 apart from the raw MHz difference between the two (and even then it's a small difference). Games aren't very multi-threaded so you'd be hard pushed to find a game that would use 4 cores, never mind the 8 (4 + 4virtual) cores in the i7.

[TMRaven]

There was an article I read somewhere that compared gaming performance of i5 to i7 in a multitude of modern titles.

Almost all of the games had same FPS, except for a couple here and there that got 2-3 more fps from i7.

You'd sooner get more FPS out of 1333mhz ram than an upgrade to i7 I'm afraid.

[palebluedot]

It is a shame that the 21" does not have an i5 :( that would be great.

Thanks for the responses so far folks! As to the questions why an iMac... Well I am part of that small subset of hardcore games who are also hard core Mac OS X users and it's more cumbersome to have 3 computers on my desk. I'd rather consolidate to a Mac laptop and Mac desktop.

My main fear, as I said, is that the 27" res is huge for such a middle grade card (according to what you could get on a desktop rig with a 27" monitor and spec the settings).

:p

[TMRaven]

The mobility 4850 has the bandwidth of most modern day desktop gpus, it's only lacking in raw core speed-- which can be overclocked at any time if necessary.

Your performance will definitely not suffer!

[Rodus]

Well I am part of that small subset of hardcore games who are also hard core Mac OS X users and it's more cumbersome to have 3 computers on my desk. I'd rather consolidate to a Mac laptop and Mac desktop. :p

I'm in exactly the same boat as you, the 27" i5 is a great gaming machine. The Stalker Games, Metro 2033, Crysis et al all run very nicely.

[ChronoIMG]

I'm in exactly the same boat as you, the 27" i5 is a great gaming machine. The Stalker Games, Metro 2033, Crysis et al all run very nicely.
Can you tell me about the noise levels when running a GPU intensive game? I'm interested in buying the 27" iMac instead of the new MBP's refresh but I'm concerned about noise. My current MBP (Late 2007) sounds like a helicopter when playing anything that uses the GPU at all. It's so loud in fact that I've tried moving it under my desk but it's still annoyingly loud.

Thanks.

[Rodus]

OS X side is very quiet, CoD 4 maxed out and running for ages hardly gets the fan up at all (although that may change if we have a hot summer). Under Windows I have SMC fan control running all the time 'cos the GPU is overclocked and it is a little noisy, so I turn up my surround sound :) problem solved. I'd rather have a little fan noise and a cool graphics card then a toaster. The sound is nothing like the new Fermi cards however.

If you are a gamer then the Radeon 4850 blows the Nvidia 330m out the water, no comparison.

[ChronoIMG]

If you are a gamer then the Radeon 4850 blows the Nvidia 330m out the water, no comparison.
Yeah and that just makes me sad :(

My MBP gets both fans up to 6000rpm when running any game making it just really loud and annoying. Sure I can turn on music and what not to drown it out but sometimes I'd prefer not too.

It's looking more and more like I'm getting an iMac and keeping my MBP as a spare machine for travelling, etc.

[Fraaaa]

I wanted to buy a new MBA but probably I'll buy an high-end iMac and stick with my ol' MacBook.

I ought to play Diablo III!

[alanwong]

Installed Oblivion under XP on my 27" i5 iMac yesterday.

At full resolution it looks beautiful but thought that it chugged a bit compared to my old AMD with a 8800GT running at 1680 x 1050...

[TMRaven]

You should be able to get 60fps out of oblivion easily. Install fraps and find out your fps!

[alanwong]

Install fraps and find out your fps!

But won't the FPS be dependent on what you're doing (and hence looking at) in the game at that time? I.e. if in a room the FPS would be higher than outdoors?

What I'd need (to be scientific about it) is a script I could run for Oblivion... ;)

[Rodus]

Get the latest catalyst drivers and install them with mobility modder (http://www.hardwareheaven.com/modtool.php), the drivers Apple include are rubbish.

[MCFinn]

I'm in the same boat with you. I wanted to get the 27" iMac ages ago, but had to fight the urge because of the reported problems and "disappointing" choice of GPU.

Then I waited for this latest batch of MBPs that was supposed to be replacing my aging MBP (SR, 2.4C2D, 15", 8600GT), but once again, I'm not too happy with their choice of a GPU. *sigh*

I hope Apple upgrades their 27" iMacs with HD5850 goodness soon!

[TMRaven]

I think only mobility 4870 and 5870 will be better than 4850 I'm afraid :(

[Rodus]

^^Yes, at the moment the current 5850m is weaker then the 4850m, the only benefit is it supports DX11

[MCFinn]

Oops! I didn't know that they had crippled the mobile HD 5850 that badly. My bad. *sigh*

[Rodus]

^^Hellhammer was looking at this in another thread, the mobile 4850 is just a desktop version with lower clock speeds, the mobile 5850 is a slowed down 5770.

[palebluedot]

So are you saying the current iMac graphics card is good or bad? You made it sound like there is a chance they will update it to a better ATI card soon. The iMac is in mid-cycle after all.

[alanwong]

At 2560 x 1440 the results were
Average, Min, Max
20, 11, 43
20, 10, 42
20, 10, 42

(I ran the benchmark 3 times...) :D

[palebluedot]

At 2560 x 1440 the results were
Average, Min, Max
20, 11, 43
20, 10, 42
20, 10, 42

(I ran the benchmark 3 times...) :D

Yikes, so not even 60fps?

[TMRaven]

At 2560 x 1440 the results were
Average, Min, Max
20, 11, 43
20, 10, 42
20, 10, 42

(I ran the benchmark 3 times...) :D

how much aa? those numbers seem very low if I can get a solid 30 out of dirt2 with the mobility 4850.

[alanwong]

how much aa? those numbers seem very low if I can get a solid 30 out of dirt2 with the mobility 4850.

2X AA.

Without AA it is
Average, Min, Max
23, 10, 52

Note that I am running under XP. :p

[Rodus]

Overclock it, theres loads of headroom and those numbers will go up.

[palebluedot]

Overclock it, theres loads of headroom and those numbers will go up.

Is it possible to over clock in OS X? I am going to be gaming more in OS X once Steam for OS X comes out with L4D2, TF2, etc.

I doubt it's possible since you have to use Apple's "drivers". :(

[Rodus]

Sadly not in OS X, it's Windows only.

[Rodus]

^^Just run 1080 on the 27", still looks great and with the likelihood of more and more games supporting quad core cpu's the i5/i7 is a winner. Plus it'll have a better resale value when the iMacs with x-fired 5790's are released ;)

[alanwong]

Overclock it...

Err... in an iMac with not much room I'd rather not, I shudder at the thought of thermal damage.

[Rodus]

^^Thermal damage? From a max temp of 65 c? I doubt it.

CPU impact varies from game to game, try playing GTA IV and saying a quad CPU had minimal impact over a Dua.

As for the 5790's: Sarcasm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm), this ;) may have given it away.

[palebluedot]

So do you really think the 24" C2D could game better than the 27" i5/i7?

Does anyone know if there are plans to release a 21" i5/i7 with that GPU in the iMacs right now? It's kind of strange the 27" has modern specs but the other ones are speced with a last gen processor (C2D) and GPU.

[Rodus]

So do you really think the 24" C2D could game better than the 27" i5/i7?

Does anyone know if there are plans to release a 21" i5/i7 with that GPU in the iMacs right now? It's kind of strange the 27" has modern specs but the other ones are speced with a last gen processor (C2D) and GPU.

No, the 27" can use all the same resolutions as the 24" plus higher ones for less taxing games, add to that the quad CPU that more and more games/apps will start to use and a higher RAM ceiling and the 27" makes sense. It'll be faster in other tasks that are highly multi-threaded which should be useful in the long run as I'm assuming you'll be doing more then just gaming.

A 21" with a 4850 and Quad i5/i7 would run very hot indeed, we'll probably see them with the dual core i5/i7 and Nvidia 320 or Radeon equivalent.

[Kabir8]

I play Battlefield 2 Bad Company on my 27" i7
I run through Bootcamp Windows XP SP 3 - I have a Windows7 Upgrade though that I have yet to run.

It all runs very nicely except for the fact that I cannot play the game with sound on Multiplayer because it crashes immediately. Single player is fine, but I have played a ton of Multiplayer without sound, so I just listen to my iPod instead, rather than constant machine gun noise.
It does take me out of the game sometimes, and it isn't as immersive, but I run 2560x1440 with high settings and its fine.

Hopefully Dice fixes the issue, but from what I have been reading, Dice is a **** company when it comes to fixing glitches, and problems with coding and programming.

[NATO]

I play Battlefield 2 Bad Company on my 27" i7
I run through Bootcamp Windows XP SP 3 - I have a Windows7 Upgrade though that I have yet to run.

It all runs very nicely except for the fact that I cannot play the game with sound on Multiplayer because it crashes immediately. Single player is fine, but I have played a ton of Multiplayer without sound, so I just listen to my iPod instead, rather than constant machine gun noise.
It does take me out of the game sometimes, and it isn't as immersive, but I run 2560x1440 with high settings and its fine.

Hopefully Dice fixes the issue, but from what I have been reading, Dice is a **** company when it comes to fixing glitches, and problems with coding and programming.

I have no issues with Battlefield Bad Company 2 multiplayer although I'm using Windows 7, just letting you know so that you can expect it to work once you upgrade your system from XP.

[definitive]

I asked the people there at Apple and they said it was a REAL desktop version of the ATI card.

lol, and everyone knows how reliable apple employees are...

[TMRaven]

Just do yourself a favor and think of it as a desktop card! It's a unique mobility card in that it's based directly off its desktop counterpart (same number of shaders, transistors, bus width etc) except it's clocked lower than desktop version.

It's a very good card, and will run most modern games at native resolution just fine with high-max settings. Only thing it won't do is pump your epenis.

[alanwong]

I have a Windows7 Upgrade though that I have yet to run.

I thought you could only upgrade to Win7 from Vista... ;)

[palebluedot]

Just do yourself a favor and think of it as a desktop card! It's a unique mobility card in that it's based directly off its desktop counterpart (same number of shaders, transistors, bus width etc) except it's clocked lower than desktop version.

It's a very good card, and will run most modern games at native resolution just fine with high-max settings. Only thing it won't do is pump your epenis.

That resolution is huge though! I highly doubt you could run modern games at high-max settings on a middle-grade GPU! But i'll take your word for it :D

[TMRaven]

Honestly, you'd find the extra resolution to put a very small dent in your gaming performance, you should be more worried about using high amounts of anti-aliasing at that resolution.

Anti-aliasing generally maxes the bandwidth more than resolution does on gpus. The card in the iMac suffers the same fate almost every other mobility card does (altho way less thanks to 256 bus width)-- and that is a low amount of bandwidth compared to desktop counterparts.

Since most modern games have highly detailed and refined figures, the "jaggy edge" issue is less apparent than older games (especially considering a higher resolution will reduce amounts of jaggedness and need for aa altogether.)

The difference between 4xaa and 0xaa on dirt2 is virtually non-apparent, especially considering you'll be racing your car at high speeds. About the only thing you could make an argument for would be the antenna.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/twisted_metal_2/dirt2-2010-03-30-19-22-10-8.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/twisted_metal_2/dirt2-2010-03-30-19-21-49-4.jpg


As far as being a middle-grade gpu, notebook check still considers the 4850 a tier1 mobility gpu. Only the likes of 4870, 5870 and sli'd cards beat it clearly.