Flash-based iPod by Christmas?

[varmit]

http://www.macdailynews.com/comments.php?id=P3565_0_1_0

Going after everything now.

AND YES, I DID TRY TO FIND IT BEFORE POSTING.

[stoid]

Does this chip manufacturer make flash chips that only work in music players? I don't know that it's a given that Apple is putting them into a music player.

iPod Micro! 50 songs in your pocket!! WOOOO!!!


I'm skeptical.

[varmit]

Does this chip manufacturer make flash chips that only work in music players? I don't know that it's a given that Apple is putting them into a music player.

iPod Micro! 50 songs in your pocket!! WOOOO!!!


I'm skeptical.

I would say they Apple would sell a large amount of space like a 1 gig. But what would people pay. 150-200 bucks for it, thats why I'm wondering what the chips are for and why they would state it out loud, Apple hates it when people do that. It could be chips just for antishock protection for all I know, just want to put it out there.

[kgarner]

While i am skeptical as well, it does make sense. There are a lot of peole out there that can't aford a $250 or more music player. Not all of us have huge libraries that we want ot carry around. Why not have a small flash drive that can still play songs form the iTMS. I don't have an iPod, but i want one. I still use my trusty Rio 600. But I can't take my iTMS purchases to the gym. this bites. If Apple released a flash based drive that was compatible with Fairplay i think they could sell quite a few.

Think of it as a lower step in the convert everyone to mac plan. 1. Get cheap music player and let them use it with the iTMS. 2. After they buy a bunch of songs because it is so easy and cool they get an iPod. 3. They like the iPod/iTunes experience and want ot carry that to the rest of their computing experience so they get a Mac. 4. World domination!

[stoid]

You forgot step 5!

5. Finally bring iTMS to Canada. :D

[mfacey]

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041001/15248_1.html

I'm not sure that macdailynews did their research very well. This article from yahoo definitely speaks very clearly of Rio not Apple.

Nuff said.

Too bad though.


EDIT: btw, the link above happens to be the official SigmaTel press release

[MacRumors]

According to a recent analyst's quote (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/9811524.htm?1c" title="AP - Analyst: SigmaTel to supply chips for Apple MP3 player), Apple will be using chips from an Austin, TX based semiconductor company called SigmaTel in an upcoming version of a music player. The analyst, Jason Pflaum of Thomas Weisel Partners LLC, cited "numerous sources in Asia" and predicts SigmaTel will receive $2-4 million from the deal in the first full quarter.

It must be noted that Thomas Weisel has an investment banking relationship with SigmaTel and that neither the semiconductor company nor Apple has confirmed this deal.

If true, it could mean a cheaper, lighter, skip-proof iPod.

Edit: The SigmaTel web site says that they make USB controller chips, MP3 audio decoders, and audio codecs, not flash storage. This has now been pointed out a few times later in this thread. This Edit has been added so we won't have an endless stream of new posts making this same point.

[Rower_CPU]

Something else that might come of this...it would be interesting to see if Apple sticks with the iPod name or goes with something different on a new player.

[kikimus]

I don't see this happening. Flash players have already flooded the market. No premium for Apple. Little to differentiate, other than the interface.

I doubt most people who own the mini even know it has a hard drive.

Who cares?

I can't see Apple cranking out me-too $150 flash players.

[kenaustus]

With Flash increasing in capacity and dropping in price this looks like a good bet. Might no get released for Christmas, but I think Steve J wants the revenues it could bring.

It would certainly address the market for those who cannot afford an iPod with a HD, add customers to The Music Store and drive MS nuts - all good reasons to introduce it.

[Inkmonkey]

My guess would be that these are used in the iPod mini. It would probably be due for an update before it's big brother.

[dotnina]

This could be successful if they use flash cards of ~1 gig. I don't know if anything less will sell too well ... then you just have too few songs.

[varmit]

Wasn't Macdaily that screwed up first then

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/news/9811513.htm

[Inkmonkey]

This could be successful if they use flash cards of ~1 gig. I don't know if anything less will sell too well ... then you just have too few songs.

What is the max size of a Flash card currently?

[DrGruv1]

I don't see this happening. Flash players have already flooded the market. No premium for Apple. Little to differentiate, other than the interface.

I doubt most people who own the mini even know it has a hard drive.

Who cares?

I can't see Apple cranking out me-too $150 flash players.


I teach jr. high kids, they would BUY without question the Ipod flash under $100. They watch TV see the commercials and would buy it in a second! To the jr. high and high school kid they would sell REALLY well!

[mfacey]

Not true I'm afraid

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/041001/15248_1.html


Its an official press release


The deal is with Rio not Apple.

[jxyama]

I teach jr. high kids, they would BUY without question the Ipod flash under $100. They watch TV see the commercials and would buy it in a second! To the jr. high and high school kid they would sell REALLY well!

that's where you are incorrect too. they won't be under $100. such a low price point would "cheapen" the brand, offer no room for differentiation and have no profit.

the way apple would do a flash player would be ~$175, high capacity (1+ GB?) as min. otherwise, there's no money to be made.

i still doubt they will bother with flash, cheap iPods. just like there are no headless cheap Macs, there's no profit margin to be worth lending very premium apple branding on it.

[pkradd]

SigmaTel doesn't make memory chips. They make controllers used to run both disk and flash MP3 players. The Rio deal is true as well. Doesn't mean Apple isn't getting their controllers from SigmaTel as well. According to the site, the controller can help get 50 hours of battery life.

www. Sigmatel.com

[Porchland]

I just don't see Apple selling a hundred-dollar iPod; it doesn't jibe with their image, would lower the bar on capacity and would waste all the goodwill Apple has built up in a bigger(-capacity)-is-better iPod.

Now, if flash drives could give Apple good capacity at a lower cost than hard drives, the changes are all under the hood and wouldn't really affect the marketing or functionality; it would just make for lower costs and better margins for Apple.

[Le Big Mac]

I don't see this happening. Flash players have already flooded the market. No premium for Apple. Little to differentiate, other than the interface.

the same thing can be said for hard-drive based players too.

It's great, assuming the capacity is enough. Not to mention that one could continue to upgrade the capacity with new cards. Or have several cards presumably, each with a set of songs.

[jholzner]

that's where you are incorrect too. they won't be under $100. such a low price point would "cheapen" the brand, offer no room for differentiation and have no profit.

the way apple would do a flash player would be ~$175, high capacity (1+ GB?) as min. otherwise, there's no money to be made.

i still doubt they will bother with flash, cheap iPods. just like there are no headless cheap Macs, there's no profit margin to be worth lending very premium apple branding on it.

I hope this is true but I would like to see a price of $150.00. I also doubt apple will release it before Christmas. They will let the current iPod line take it this quarter and probably release it at MacWord 2005...like they did the mini.

[AoWolf]

It would go against the whole iPod philosophy to put flash memory in it unless its over 4 gigs...

[kidA]

i agree with others on the board. i can't see apple making any me too 128 or 256 mb flash based devices.

if apple does decide to use flash memory for something, my guess is that it will be very small but will use the high capacity flash drives. flash memory has really come down in cost lately. you can get 1 gb usb flash drives for between $150 and $200 and 2 GB compact flash cards for about the same. so it's really not too bad. but flash memory is pretty slow, especially when there's a lot of it. so i don't know. a 1 or 2 gb flash based ipod would be realistic in the ipod mini's price range, but no lower, probably, and that's why i can't see apple doing it.

[CalfCanuck]

What is the max size of a Flash card currently?

The high end photo flash cards have capacities of 8 GB and write speeds approaching 20 MB / sec. - but they cost some $$$. Backing off to non-cutting edge stuff, though, really brings down the prices.

Before the mini came out, I was talking about Flash cards on this forum and it was amazing how ignorant some were, claiming they were old technology (I guess that's true about everything, though ... :p ).

I imagine that in 4-5 years all smaller music devices will be flash based, if for nothing else than to lower warranty and breakage costs!

Some people complain that the capacities are too low - but they have gone up 20 fold in 3 years, allowing for a set price. Retail prices for 1GB cards are about $50, so volume / wholesale they must be starting to converge with small hard drives like in the mini.

[Rod Rod]

SigmaTel doesn't make memory chips. They make controllers used to run both disk and flash MP3 players. The Rio deal is true as well. Doesn't mean Apple isn't getting their controllers from SigmaTel as well. According to the site, the controller can help get 50 hours of battery life.

www. Sigmatel.com

pkradd's post pretty much ends the discussion here.

however, all the people who don't bother to read the entire thread before posting will likely repeat what's been said before pkradd's post, and subsequent posters will repeat what's in pkradd's post.

hopefully this doesn't get out of control like the iMac G5 threads.

pkradd, awesome post. :) it's great to have a real voice of reason here.

The high end photo flash cards have capacities of 8 GB

those 8 GB "flash cards" are actually hard drives (not flash memory) in CF enclosures.

[Gherkin]

You people are ridiculous. Once flash gets to a point of high capacity at a cheap price, hard drive MP3 players are going to be a thing of the past. Just think of something the size of those little 256 MB flash players with 10 GB of storage.

Yea, cheap 10 GB flash cards are still a ways off, but it will happen eventually. I mean it was just 3 years ago that we only had a 5 GB iPod, now look where we are.

If Apple does go through with this, I bet it will be an update to the iPod Mini. This would make sense...

iPod = harddrive/high capacity
iPod Mini = flash based/small as heck

I'm sure the tech for cheap 5 GB flash cards isn't far off.

[ojames]

here's another article with more info:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=671


"SigmaTel's D-Major portable audio system-on-a-chip (SoC) currently ranks atop the flash-based MP3 player market segment with over nine million units shipped last year. The chipmaker claims battery life in excess of 50 hours with high-speed USB 2.0 capability.

Apple CEO Steve Jobs has stated that he believes the cost of Apple's iPod remains too high for the average consumer. During an exclusive interview at June's Wall Street Journal's D: All Things Digital conference, Jobs said Apple was working very hard at reducing the price of the iPod. When asked when to expected a price-drop, Jobs just smiled."

[ijimk]

I think this should be called something different than ipod. they should keep hardrive based music players ipod and flash ones seperate. Call it iflash or icard something like that.

[Mr_Ed]

the same thing can be said for hard-drive based players too.

True, but the difference is that in the case of HD based players, Apple was one of the first out there and is the current market leader. In the "cheap" memory based player segment, Apple would look like an "also ran" and it would be much harder to achieve the kind of profit margin they are used to with the current iPod + mini line-up. There are so many CHEAP memory players out there, it would be tough to convince someone to pay a premium for that kind of techonology.

I'm one of those who does not think Apple would enter into that market, but I guess anything is possible :)

[DrGruv1]

For under $200, I would buy one for my niece and nephew, but can't kick out $400-$500 for ipods

TRUST ME - It's a status symbol with kids - They would ask for it for Christmas and for under hundred dollars they could load ... eh ... 128 songs at 4 meg each into a 512 flash player

IT WOULD BE HUGE - Bigger than BIG :D

[realityisterror]

i call BS!!
booya.. take the cards.. :p

reality

[Gherkin]

Whenever Apple talks about their market share in the MP3 player market, isn't it usually like 70% or something and then they always comment that most of the remaining 30% is from all those small, flash-based players?

Well, this would be a good way to grab even more market share.

[Mr_Ed]

You people are ridiculous. Once flash gets to a point of high capacity at a cheap price, hard drive MP3 players are going to be a thing of the past. Just think of something the size of those little 256 MB flash players with 10 GB of storage.

Yea, cheap 10 GB flash cards are still a ways off, but it will happen eventually. I mean it was just 3 years ago that we only had a 5 GB iPod, now look where we are.

If Apple does go through with this, I bet it will be an update to the iPod Mini. This would make sense...

iPod = harddrive/high capacity
iPod Mini = flash based/small as heck

I'm sure the tech for cheap 5 GB flash cards isn't far off.

I think you are assuming the price of small HD devices will not drop right along with the price of memory. The price per MB on tiny HD devices is going down constantly. As someone else pointed out, the highest capacity CF cards available today are actually HD based. I agree the price/MB of memory devices will drop (as it does for most technology) but I think it will be quite a while before it qapproaches that of HD devices (if it ever does).

[Chaszmyr]

For those of you saying that CF will completely replace HDs in MP3 players, don't forget how bloody slow CF transfer speeds are right now.

[CalfCanuck]

those 8 GB "flash cards" are actually hard drives (not flash memory) in CF enclosures.

No, it's compact flash.

As I stated before, people who don't follow this industry closely have outdated views about Compact Flash.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0409/04092805sandisk_ultraII.asp

The demands of photographers shooting 7 frame per second digital cameras is driving the compact flash industry, and innovation (and investment) is quite breaktaking.

Here's another link about 20 MB per second transfer, just to save a second posting ...

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0409/04092806sandisk_extremeIII.asp

[iMeowbot]

Sigmatel wouldn't be at all surprising as suppliers to Apple. They are a direct competitor to PortalPlayer.

Sigmatel's current chipsets support both flash and HD, including Cornice drives.

iPod isn't necessarily married to PortalPlayer. All the compatibility stuff is in file and directory formats. The only software is the Apple-supplied firmware, so that leaves lots of flexibility to change the innards with abandon.

[CalfCanuck]

For those of you saying that CF will completely replace HDs in MP3 players, don't forget how bloody slow CF transfer speeds are right now.

WRONG.

The slow transfer speeds of Compact flash have to do with bad USB connections, or with poor implementations. As I just posted, the transfer speeds on high end cards are now pushing 20 MB per second - don't tell me THAT is too slow for audio playback.

[Catt]

Flash memory has many advantages over HDD and whilst the prices of HDD will of course fall as well as the price of flash memory once you reach a certain capacity it won't matter. I mean who wants a 20 Gb music device the size of matchbox? Most people would prefer this to a 80 or even 100 Gb one the size of a fag packet. The majority of the public do not have vast music collections and even fewer are hugely bothered about carrying them all around with them. They want something pocketable that can carry a handful of CDs. I would argue the iPod sells because of style and marketing not capacity.

[12thgear]

Using a USB 2.0 reader with a SanDisk Ultra II CF card is very quick. 8-10MB/sec read and write. Let me tell you, loading large files onto that card is quite fast. Smaller 3-5MB files, I don't even get a status bar or dialog box, the copy is so quick. The card performs very well in high resolution cameras too, as one would expect.

[jdhuskey]

I think this should be called something different than ipod. they should keep hardrive based music players ipod and flash ones seperate. Call it iflash or icard something like that.

This whole thread is silly, 'cause pkradd has already pointed out that SigmaTel isn't making Flash cards, it makes chips/controllers for players. This thread headed off in a wrong and misleading direction.

Anyway, for grins, if they do make a flash-based player, I hope they call it the ePod. :D

[jxyama]

Flash memory has many advantages over HDD and whilst the prices of HDD will of course fall as well as the price of flash memory once you reach a certain capacity it won't matter. I mean who wants a 20 Gb music device the size of matchbox? Most people would prefer this to a 80 or even 100 Gb one the size of a fag packet. The majority of the public do not have vast music collections and even fewer are hugely bothered about carrying them all around with them. They want something pocketable that can carry a handful of CDs. I would argue the iPod sells because of style and marketing not capacity.

higher capacities will always be welcomed. who says we have to stick to 128/192 kbps mp3/aac? if capacities get big enough, why not just use full aiff?

[Rod Rod]

No, it's compact flash.

As I stated before, people who don't follow this industry closely have outdated views about Compact Flash.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0409/04092805sandisk_ultraII.asp

The demands of photographers shooting 7 frame per second digital cameras is driving the compact flash industry, and innovation (and investment) is quite breaktaking.

Here's another link about 20 MB per second transfer, just to save a second posting ...

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0409/04092806sandisk_extremeIII.asp

thanks for the correction. that rocks.

however, you can get a Rio Carbon for $199-$215, break it open and use its 5GB CF hard drive in a digital camera... meaning hard drives are still way cheaper than flash-type memory.

http://www.computers4sure.com/product.asp?productid=2046034

http://www.greghughes.net/rant/PermaLink,guid,e9bdfa3f-da94-4c6e-a2f9-5ff3260040f1.aspx

the operating temperature range on the Extreme III cards is amazing though:With many professional and advanced photographers shooting pictures in extreme weather conditions ranging from African deserts to the Arctic, the SanDisk Extreme III cards also boast the industry’s widest guaranteed operating temperature range from a freezing minus 13F (minus 25C) to a scorching 185F (plus 85C).

[Stewie]

Edit: Already been said. I really have to learn to read all the post first :)


I think everyone is getting ahead of themselves. I took a look at the SigmaTel site (http://www.sigmatel.com) and the products they make are USB controller chips, MP3 audio decoders and audio codecs. They don't seem to make any type of actual flash storage. RIO uses this a MP3 controller chip from this company also.

[jcshas]

...Could this be in any way related to Apple's recent deal w/ Motorola to provide ITMS song compatibility to their line of cell phones? It seems really odd to me that Apple would consider selling an iPod that uses flash based memory.
// two cents

[iChan]

What is the max size of a Flash card currently?

sandisk lanched an 8GB CF card yesterday, 2GB SD and 4GB MS Pro.

[Brother Michael]

I don't see this happening. Flash players have already flooded the market. No premium for Apple. Little to differentiate, other than the interface.

I doubt most people who own the mini even know it has a hard drive.

Who cares?

I can't see Apple cranking out me-too $150 flash players.

Guilty as charged. I thought that the iPod was a flash based memory system. I can see I am very very wrong.

Mike

[wPod]

flash based will be about 512mb or less . . .anything else will be as expensive as the mini, but probably hold less. i doubt it will work unless its like a 4GB flash that replaces the mini and drops the price a bit :-/

[SiliconAddict]

Flash memory has many advantages over HDD and whilst the prices of HDD will of course fall as well as the price of flash memory once you reach a certain capacity it won't matter. I mean who wants a 20 Gb music device the size of matchbox? Most people would prefer this to a 80 or even 100 Gb one the size of a fag packet.

Speak for yourself. I want all my music with me.

The majority of the public do not have vast music collections and even fewer are hugely bothered about carrying them all around with them.

Then you obviously don't know the vast majority of people. Every person I know who has a digital music collection either online or IRL all have collections that exceed at least 7,000 tracks. A good percentage have over 15,000 tracks. Music isn't always about having what you like. Some people I know collect music. Some want the bragging rights. Some want to know they have such a wide collection that if someone spouts out 5 group names he will have at least 1 of them in his collection. One friend is trying for this. He has 3x,xxx something tracks.


I would argue the iPod sells because of style and marketing not capacity.

Well that'[s part if it at any rate. :rolleyes:

[Stella]

I'm skepical.

Do you really think that Apple would release an iPod that is universally affordable with low profit margins?!! :-D

[evilfunkgenius]

Regarding the posts where people want to get an iPod for $150... I found a deal with Audible.com where they will give you $100 off the price of a iPod mini if you sign up for a year of their service.

Link: http://www.audible.com/adbl/store/partnerDevPromo.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1508623601.1096671143@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccgadcmjddihhkcefecegedfhfdhfk.0&uniqueKey=1096670967578

If you already subscribe to the service now, you can still do it. PLUS, amazon has the iPod minis for $236 right now, so you end up getting it for $136 delivered, door-to-door. Seemed like a no-brainer to me.

Just thought I would put it out there.

Oh and if anyone is signing up for Audible service, remember to use my name as a referrer ("evilfunkgenius"). Thanks!

[Poff]

Ok, I know SigmaTel don't make flash, but just think about this thing for a while anyway..

The iPod mini, according to Steve Jobs, targets the HIGH END flash-market. They still have no players targeting the LOW END market. They could plan to do something like that. A $150 512mb iPod flash?

On the other hand, Steve has always talked about how these players almost can't hold a song and you throw them away after using them a couple of times..

[nagromme]

I've always thought Flash iPods were a matter of time--when price vs. capacity were right to make something you wouldn't just "throw in a drawer and forget." Maybe just the Mini with a CF card.

I see 2GB as the minimum to meet Apple's standard for usability. (Maybe 2x1GB or 4x512 if that's more cost-effective.)

[nagromme]

The rumor in question is of an Apple deal in ADDITION to the Rio on. See AppleInsider, reporting from CBS Marketwatch:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=671

So the Rio deal is announced... the Apple one is merely rumor. That doesn't mean it's false.

[Sol]

iPod Tiny would have one feature that no other flash based player does: iTunes Music Store compatibility. Apple could make more money from the music sales than from the hardware.

Speaking of hardware, due to the small capacities of flash memory, the screen resolution could be half of the iPod Mini; browsing a small library could be done in as little as three lines of text.

The click wheel could be seperated from the main body, much like the current iPod Remote. With a small library users would get in the habit of shuffling their music so click and forget would be the way to use this thing.

The dock connector would not be necessary. A mini USB port would save space and provide enough electricity to recharge the Tiny battery.

Apple Lossless support could be dropped from the firmware of the iPod Tiny. There would be too little space for lossless files and the battery would drain quicker. Besides, the environments where a flash player would likely be used would not be ideal for uncompromised audio quality.

Last but not least, if the iPod Tiny is cheap enough it could be included as a bonus with every new Mac purchase. A bonus like that would pay for itself in online music sales or if it convinces people to buy the full-size iPods.

[synergy]

It would go against the whole iPod philosophy to put flash memory in it unless its over 4 gigs...

iPod philosophy? Its about the money, not the philosophy. If Apple want's to sell more music to more people they need to sell more MP3 players. Flash is the next thing to sell with. Apple sells a combo MP3 player/music store combo. By adding a more cost effective flash based player they increase the market share for both. That philosophy will win.

[lostngone]

Right now, we are a hop, skip and a jump from being able to make the iPod mini into a Memory based(no HD) player. Without a increase in price of a decrease in size.

The iPod's HD is to small for my needs, however if they said it will have a 50 hour battery life I would get one is a second.

[mr_mac]

No, not gonna happen...

The iPod is also a HD... Everything Apple makes has to be useful on a computer... A flash based iPod would be way too slow...

Highly doubt it..

[lostngone]

CF Compact Flash is not slow.... When will you people learn, USB is slow, 5 year old Flash was slow. Look at the new CF cards and you will see its NOT SLOW!

No, not gonna happen...

The iPod is also a HD... Everything Apple makes has to be useful on a computer... A flash based iPod would be way too slow...

Highly doubt it..

[dejo]

If true, it could mean a cheaper, lighter, skip-proof iPod.

So, what? The 20+ minutes of skip protection of all previous iPods isn't good enough?

[QFace]

Flash players are pretty useless, except for jogging and running. Their lack of skipping is the only redeemable factor. I don't see how a flash player could become a good enough product to have the "iPod" name.

[t300]

You know what this means, right? A Video iPod! AHHHH!

[silvergunuk]

On a kind of related note, has anyone else heard of a new audio codec called he-aac? Apparently it can compress cd quality audio at 48kb/s. Hope Apple adopt this new version, it will speed up downloads, no loss of quality and maybe make your ipod battery last alot longer. Nice

[syclone]

Think about it this way:

Q. What does the iPod mini use for storage?
A. A 4GB Hitachi Microdrive,

Q. How much did this Microdive go for on its own when the iPod mini first came out?
A. Around $279 (Now down to around $200 with rebates)

Q. How much is a 4GB SanDisk CF card on eCost.com right now?
A. $289

So basically, the price of 4GB of flash memory has dropped to the point where it costs about the same as the microdrive did when mini first hit the streets. In essence, Apple could simply replace the microdrive with a flash card, and not change the appearance or price, but increase battery life by a huge amount. There are other options there of course, too.

I also like the idea of adding a 1GB or so buffer to the big iPod to increase battery life.

[virividox]

i thot the whole point of an ipod was large capacity small size; unless the flash cards are upwards of 4 gigs i dont see how this would fit with the ipod philosophy

[Benjamin]

rolls eyes, please :rolleyes: http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=146091&p=irol-newsArticle&t=Regular&id=622045&

end of story.

[må¥å]

Is it my imagination or, is the iPod going through the Skirt, Mini, Micro, Micro Mini...... :)


There is now a 4 Gig Flash Card yes 4 Gigs.

And with the 0.85 inch HDD, it would seem the iPod is going to shrink a lot. :D

or will prob have the iPod (Skirt), iPod Mini (Mini), 4 Gig flash (Micro), 0.85 inch HDD (Micro Mini).

if this is true we will see the 0.85 HDD make its way into a G5 PB, since it can then be RAID setup. Sick stuff a 64 bit dual core with Raid setup. Now you are talking performance in a 1 inch or less form. :D

[Stella]

Excellent idea... iPod in your watch.


Is it my imagination or, is the iPod going through the Skirt, Mini, Micro, Micro Mini...... :)

[Sol]

Flash players are pretty useless, except for jogging and running. Their lack of skipping is the only redeemable factor. I don't see how a flash player could become a good enough product to have the "iPod" name.

I do not understand why you think skipping is an issue for the current iPods. I own a 40 GB iPod and I run with it strapped to my arm every day. In the two months that I have used this iPod there has not been one skip. All iPods so far have loaded data from their hard discs to the 32 MB of memory to eliminate skipping. If anyone has ever experienced skipping the most likely explanation would be that they are playing tracks that are bigger than 32 MB in size.

[ASP272]

You'll see the 80 GB iPod way before Apple ever considers the idea of using flash chips. Well, they've probably considered it, but there's more money to be made in the big drives. With all the anti-skip time on the current models, why even worry about solid state? :confused:

[danr_97070]

Brainstorming possible uses for this memory...

How 'bout adding memory cards to hard drive-based iPods as a cache. Perhaps
it would be possible to load some music from the hard drive to the card and
temporarily put the hard drive to sleep.

This might help with shock prevention and add to battery life.

Of course, this wouldn't work if the user kept selecting different songs from
their library, but if you were shuffling through the library, the iPod could
load stuff into flash and sleep the drive.

Wouldn't it be great if this doubled (or more) the battery life on an iPod?

Don't know what you'd charge for this though...

[Super Dave]

You forgot step 5!

5. Finally bring iTMS to Canada. :D

Amen brother.

David :cool:

[lostngone]

I to, think bigger is better when it comes to the iPod. But.... Think about a 4/5 gig iPod with a 48 hour battery life. It would be really nice to only have to charge it once a week and still be able listen to it 6+ hours a day.

You'll see the 80 GB iPod way before Apple ever considers the idea of using flash chips. Well, they've probably considered it, but there's more money to be made in the big drives. With all the anti-skip time on the current models, why even worry about solid state? :confused:

[lostngone]

??? Ummm? Thats a great idea!!!! However the iPod already has/does this.

Brainstorming possible uses for this memory...

How 'bout adding memory cards to hard drive-based iPods as a cache. Perhaps
it would be possible to load some music from the hard drive to the card and
temporarily put the hard drive to sleep.

This might help with shock prevention and add to battery life.

Of course, this wouldn't work if the user kept selecting different songs from
their library, but if you were shuffling through the library, the iPod could
load stuff into flash and sleep the drive.

Wouldn't it be great if this doubled (or more) the battery life on an iPod?

Don't know what you'd charge for this though...

[legacyb4]

Because at a price point under $200, it becomes that much easier to buy one for yourself, one for your significant other, one for your boss, etc.

:rolleyes:

You'll see the 80 GB iPod way before Apple ever considers the idea of using flash chips. Well, they've probably considered it, but there's more money to be made in the big drives. With all the anti-skip time on the current models, why even worry about solid state? :confused:

[Wardofsky]

CF does have a lot of benefits, non-moving parts mean no moving parts can fail. I dropped my old iPod from about waist height and the drive died, got replaced.

I think 4gb is as big as it gets right now, I'm still impressed by Lexar's 8gb CF drive and to think it's just 2gb the original iPod :p

Going static doesn't seem to bring anything apart from reliability and power savings...

[g4cubed]

Regarding the posts where people want to get an iPod for $150... I found a deal with Audible.com where they will give you $100 off the price of a iPod mini if you sign up for a year of their service.

Link: http://www.audible.com/adbl/store/partnerDevPromo.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1508623601.1096671143@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccgadcmjddihhkcefecegedfhfdhfk.0&uniqueKey=1096670967578

If you already subscribe to the service now, you can still do it. PLUS, amazon has the iPod minis for $236 right now, so you end up getting it for $136 delivered, door-to-door. Seemed like a no-brainer to me.

Just thought I would put it out there.

Oh and if anyone is signing up for Audible service, remember to use my name as a referrer ("evilfunkgenius"). Thanks!

Hey evilfunkgenius,
maybe you should read the fine print on the $100.00 offer. It expired September 30, 2004. The coupon code they gave you is good till Decmeber 31,2004.
Just thought I'd let you know and everyone else before wasting any time.

[Chaszmyr]

The slow transfer speeds of Compact flash have to do with bad USB connections, or with poor implementations. As I just posted, the transfer speeds on high end cards are now pushing 20 MB per second - don't tell me THAT is too slow for audio playback.

20mb/s isn't too slow... and it's definitely not too slow for audio playback.. but the speed i was talking about isnt audio playback speed, it's computer syncing speed.

[Sir_Giggles]

Apple introduces iPod Lite. All the things you love about the iPod, now even smaller and lighter. Comes with 256MB of interchangeable compact flash memory. $149 for the 256MB version, $199 for the 512MB version.

[thedoc1111]

BTW, I think the 20MB/second figures for high-end flash cards are a bit optimistic but 9MB/second is a reality now, more than enough for music.

Also, there's the reliability issue - in the past Microdrives have been notoriously unreliable!

Mike

[må¥å]

Apple introduces iPod Lite. All the things you love about the iPod, now even smaller and lighter. Comes with 256MB of interchangeable compact flash memory. $149 for the 256MB version, $199 for the 512MB version.


Yuk, I will skip on this product. :p

[Sir_Giggles]

Yuk, I will skip on this product. :p

Are you sure? I know you love it... especially the Sailor Moon Limited Edition iPod Lite.

[deathandtaxes]

Wooo-Hooo. The best defense is a strong offense!

[scem0]

Those prices are waaaaaaay too high (but that's totally expected from apple).

Why can't apple make a cheap high capacity flash player?:
http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PROFRAME&PROD_ID=891446

scem0

[CalfCanuck]

20mb/s isn't too slow... and it's definitely not too slow for audio playback.. but the speed i was talking about isnt audio playback speed, it's computer syncing speed.
And 20 MB per second is slow for "computer syncing speed"? I think not... Just an I/O problem with the hardware that use the cards, not a problem with the cards themselves.

My basic complaint in these threads is with the people who've been making statments like "Flash memory is too slow". Sure, first generation cards were dogs, but those days have come and gone. The performance of these cards is changing VERY rapidly.

The robustness of Flash cards is a HUGE issue - even normal memory cards are designed to be dropped a couple of meters onto hard surfaces. One web site testing I/O speeds dropped a compact flash card out of a second story window onto concrete below(by mistake) - not a single image stored on the card was effected. Solid state will make a huge impact on warrranty returns, etc.

Of course cost is an issue with these high end cards, but that will fall in time. My first 1 GB external HD in 1993 cost $1500, but look what's in a $400 iPod now!

[CalfCanuck]

BTW, I think the 20MB/second figures for high-end flash cards are a bit optimistic but 9MB/second is a reality now, more than enough for music.

Also, there's the reliability issue - in the past Microdrives have been notoriously unreliable!

Mike

You're right 9 MB is more than enough, but 20 MB is the reality for cutting edge cards.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0409/04092806sandisk_extremeIII.asp

People have no idea how fast the Compact Flash industry is changing - the latest Canon pro camera models (Canon EOS-1D Mark II) shoots 8.2 Megapixels at over 8 frames per second. Of course a lot of this goes into a buffer, but they still need to offload that huge buffer.

I was watching prime time TV the other day and say an ad for Sandisk Compact Flash cards - when was the last time you saw generic memory advertised at $500,000 per minute?? This is an industry on the move, chasing big dollars!

[aswitcher]

I think that Apple will need to do something good with a flashplayer to compete well. Many have radios, replaceable cards, nice features etc and are getting cheaper every few months/

What I like to think is that these plans actually link with Motorola's new relationship with Apple...a mobile phone with half a gig memory, decent camera, radio etc would be pretty attractive...

[Windowlicker]

Something else that might come of this...it would be interesting to see if Apple sticks with the iPod name or goes with something different on a new player.

iPhone with a CF card? ;D I so much hope apple would come out with a cell phone because I'm probably gonna have to get a new one in a year or so. too bad I don't think that's gonna happen.

[TimDaddy]

You forgot step 5!

5. Finally bring iTMS to Canada. :D
LOL! iTMS Canada after world domination! I'm sorry. That was funny.

[TopGear]

People have no idea how fast the Compact Flash industry is changing...
I was watching prime time TV the other day and say an ad for Sandisk Compact Flash cards - when was the last time you saw generic memory advertised at $500,000 per minute?? This is an industry on the move, chasing big dollars!

Exactly. Why does everyone think that a CF iPod would be small or slow?

According to Samsung,

http://www.samsung.com/us/Products/Semiconductor/USNews/Flash/Flash_20040920_0000069977.asp

“NAND flash technology development continues to double density growth on an average of every 12 months,” said Dr. Chang Gyu Hwang, president and CEO of Samsung Electronics’ Semiconductor business.

"...Dr. Hwang said the industry has seen densities grow from 256 Megabit (Mb) in 1999, to 512Mb in 2000, 1Gb in 2001, 2Gb in 2002, 4Gb in 2003 and now 8Gb in 2004.”

"The 8Gb NAND flash memory will allow designs of up to 16Gigabytes (GB) of storage on a single memory card."

According to Samsung and elsewhere, we should see 16 Gb CF cards out by next summer. What's to keep Apple from putting an (older) 4 Gb model in the iPod mini? Or doubling the capacity of the iPod mini to 8 Gb of flash memory?

[johnnyjibbs]

Sounds like this should be page 2.

[Mord]

i would have though that this is misunderstood and the flash memory deal would be so ipods would have a larger shock protection cache and therefor would need to use the HD less often possibly doubleing the battery life.

[Poff]

Sounds like this should be page 2.

I totally agree with you, mister Jibbs.

[sushi]

The demands of photographers shooting 7 frame per second digital cameras is driving the compact flash industry, and innovation (and investment) is quite breaktaking.

Here's another link about 20 MB per second transfer, just to save a second posting ...

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0409/04092806sandisk_extremeIII.asp
Also, there is Pretec.

They have a 12GB 80X (12MB write/13MB Read) card.

Price is currently prohibative except for those who need this capability for work.

However, as we all know, prices drop. I see where Pretec has a 1GB card for $189 retail.

Getting excited about the possibilities!

Sushi

[sushi]

What is the max size of a Flash card currently?
I believe that the Pretec 12GB Cheetah 80X CompactFlash Cardis the largest on the market.

http://www.pretec.com/OnlineSales/SSD/Cheetah/Cheetah_order.htm

Of course it costs a very pretty penny right now.

Sushi

[sushi]

Flash players are pretty useless, except for jogging and running. Their lack of skipping is the only redeemable factor. I don't see how a flash player could become a good enough product to have the "iPod" name.
Think outside the box a bit.

Take the iPod mini. Shrink it a little. Replace the HD with flash memory.

Simple. And in some markets, there is a huge demand for something like this. Especially here in Japan where folks ride the train to work each and every day.

While I love my iPod, I use my flash player (256MB) a lot as well. Heck the battery lasts for something like 20 hours. I can tune FM stations and record via the built in mic. And it is only the size of a pack of gum, and is very light. Oh, and they have the same model with 512MB.

Sushi

[swissmann]

I see a market for this. I just tried to convince someone that an iPod mini would be great for him. He rejected the idea because it was still too big and heavy for him to jog with. The problem I see is if you get much smaller than the iPod mini where do you put the scroll wheel - an iPod trademark? I don't know about production costs but you could put 2 or more flash cards in it to up the capacity.

[Bear]

Flash Memory does not necessarily mean Compact Flash.

If it did, a compact flash based iPod would be the exact same size as an iPod mini.

It is possible to use flash type memory directly on a circuit board without the CF or SD or any of the other types of interfaces. Using the memory directly on the board is what could shrink the size of the iPod mini. Also, skipping the CF interface could save manufacturing costs.

[Cochrane]

Flash based iPod? Like ATAT said when the first rumors about the iPod mini were coming, "3 and a half songs in your pocket". I would surely not buy it, but I know a lot of people who would like to have an iPod without spending more than $250. My guess is that, if it would appear, it would come in the next generation iPod mini.

[reykjavik]

This site is just rehashing of AppleInsider.com, so why not just straight to the source?

[CalfCanuck]

Flash Memory does not necessarily mean Compact Flash.

If it did, a compact flash based iPod would be the exact same size as an iPod mini.

It is possible to use flash type memory directly on a circuit board without the CF or SD or any of the other types of interfaces. Using the memory directly on the board is what could shrink the size of the iPod mini. Also, skipping the CF interface could save manufacturing costs.

I agree that memory can be set in other configurations - I've been usig the discussion about Compact Flash as a proxy to dispell many of the misconceptions that posters have about the texhnology.

But if Apple can stay within the confines of Compact Falsh dimensions, the sheer volume of this format will translate into a lower price point. I'm not sure that everyone wants an iPod the size of a coin - my wife (with small hands) gave up on a tiny cellphone with buttons so small the keypad was worthless, and chose a larger model.

[Xtremehkr]

Literally within days of me getting my silver iPod mini. The store finally had some in stock that you could take home that day. I was amazed.

I'm considering doing an informal consumer review of some iPod accessories, but I don't know if it has been done already. There are seemingly endless choices when it comes to what you want to do with your pod some are definately better than others.

Overall I'm very happy with my pod, 1000 songs is plenty. A 60 Gig pod is now a sure thing based on how good my experience with the mini pod has been.

[ccuilla]

Why does anyone care what the storage technology is? I'll bet consumers don't really...only techno-geeks.

The idea of a different name for the flash-based iPod (if there is one) is just dumb.

The idea that flash-based "goes against the iPod philosophy" seems stupid too.

The iPod (and its so-called philosophy) has much less (nothing?) to do with the internal storage technology.

[Rower_CPU]

This site is just rehashing of AppleInsider.com, so why not just straight to the source?

And they're just rehashing the same AP stories everyone else is. :rolleyes:

Quit trolling.

[Tolmar]

Do you think this would be completely Flash based, or would there also be a smaller internal hard drive? If so, I can see this being very appealing to digital photographers who could fill up a card with pics, and dump them onto an ipod and keep shooting.

[VAmin]

Perhaps a simple MP3 player is being a bit simplistic. A smarter move would be some sort of multipurpose storage device which, in addition to being able to play MP3s, would act as a USB thumbdrive, radio tuner, etc. I think it would make a lot of sense for Apple to get into USB thumbdrive solutions- they are what is replacing (have already replaced) floppy technology. Apple has facilitated this by being one of the first manufacturers to forgo internal floppy drives. iThumb, anyone?

[Rower_CPU]

Of note for a few who've pointed it out....

Neither the original article nor the MacRumors story claim that SigmaTel is making the flash storage itself for a new iPod, just that they will be making controller chips inside the device. As is evident with the deal between Rio and SigmaTel (http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=146091&p=irol-newsArticle&t=Regular&id=622045&), they know what they're doing when it comes to MP3 controller chips.

So, don't write off this rumor based on that misconception.

[må¥å]

Are you sure? I know you love it... especially the Sailor Moon Limited Edition iPod Lite.

Please don't amuse me, I am not a teen. :rolleyes:


If they made an iPod inline LCD or OLED remote player that would be interesting.

iPodµ sounds sweet. :)

the best MP3 GUI in a remote package. will set it apart and it can also be added to the iPod and mini when you upgrade thus you are not loosing anything rather adding as in add and upgrade.

That sounds like a plane. No other MP3 flash or HDD based has this in place. :D

Think of it this way:

When you are only listening to a few tunes and jogging, you can use the iPodµ as is with its own battery supply, when you want all your tunes plug the remote into the iPod or mini and have it expanded.

That would be a great plan, have people buy the low cost iPodµ and when they are comfortable to upgrade they will not have to throw out they iPodµ rather used it as an extension to they new purchase.

Dammit, that is a sweet idea......and I just gave it away to everyone. :(

[Xtremehkr]

Do you think this would be completely Flash based, or would there also be a smaller internal hard drive? If so, I can see this being very appealing to digital photographers who could fill up a card with pics, and dump them onto an ipod and keep shooting.

I saw something like that at the Apple store for the iPod, not the mini but it was a card reader that could transfer information from various types of cards to the Pod.

[applekid]

iPod mini mini?

Maybe a flash-based iPod mini will replace the current iPod minis? I don't see any room for flash-based players unless there's more use to it than just an MP3 player.

[biederman]

From a marketing standpoint, it makes perfect sense for Apple to grab a piece of the lower-end music player market, which happens right now to be flash-based. It's like the old General Motors strategy... sell them a Chevy, then a Buick, then a Cadillac. Hopefully some of these buyers (esp. teens) will trade-up for an iPod in a few years. A lower-end device would also significantly expand the market for iTunes music store. Finally, I'm confident that Apple could bring some innovation and style to the lower-end market. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[iGary]

I can't imagine Steve selling something he has preached so vehemently against in the past.

[Sir_Giggles]

I can't imagine Steve selling something he has [i]preached so vehemently against[/] in the past.

Care to provide any links or videos to back up this rather ridiculous statement?

[mgescuro]

Has any realized that these "flash memory chips" could be for the upcoming Motorola phone that supposedly syncs to iTunes?

[doogle]

Have posted ths mock up a while ago so hopefully people have forgotten it - but a possible flashPod based mockuphttp://infotyte.adc.rmit.edu.au/ipodtype/images/upod.jpg

[iGary]

Care to provide any links or videos to back up this rather ridiculous statement?

Um, have a look at the MWSF keynote where he introduces the iPod Mini, and he makes no less than 6 derogatory comments about flash-based players, one being "People buy them and throw them in a drawer."

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf04/

Rather ridiculous, indeed.

Go take a shower.

[ccuilla]

Have posted ths mock up a while ago so hopefully people have forgotten it - but a possible flashPod based mockuphttp://infotyte.adc.rmit.edu.au/ipodtype/images/upod.jpg

I like the design. I would try to shoot for two more lines on the display though.

[mashinhead]

think its for a pda? :rolleyes: ....maybe. :o um...maybe not..... but also maybe ;)



:D

[Trimix]

those 8 GB "flash cards" are actually hard drives (not flash memory) in CF enclosures.[/QUOTE]

not quite mate
quote
SanDisk® Corporation (Nasdaq:SNDK - News) announced today that is has quadrupled the capacity of its high-speed SanDisk Ultra® II line of flash memory cards that includes the development of a new 8GB CompactFlash® Type I card. The top end SanDisk Ultra II Memory Stick PRO(TM) and SD(TM) cards now boast 4GB and 2GB of capacity respectively. The announcement was made at the Photokina trade show where SanDisk is demonstrating products in Hall 1.2, aisle A, Booth 059.
unquote

[mccoma]

Have posted ths mock up a while ago so hopefully people have forgotten it - but a possible flashPod based mockuphttp://infotyte.adc.rmit.edu.au/ipodtype/images/upod.jpg

I too would think 2 more lines of text and replace the buttons and slider with a small click wheel (maybe make the unit just a touch fatter).

cool photoshop.

[CalfCanuck]

Um, have a look at the MWSF keynote where he introduces the iPod Mini, and he makes no less than 6 derogatory comments about flash-based players, one being "People buy them and throw them in a drawer."

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf04/

Rather ridiculous, indeed.

Go take a shower.

It was the implementation of poorly designed flash-based players with limited storage that he, correctly, was complaining about. 64 MB of storage is NOT enough, but that's what the techno geeks from other firms were throwing out to people because that's what flash-based storage could provide at a certain price point.

Digital is digital, and the consumer doesn't care (or need to know) what technology is used to stor 0's and 1's, as long as it meets their needs.

My first 128 KB Mac in spring of 1984 had no hard drive - so were we to assume that Macs would never get one? It was solely a matter of price at the time. And it took a number of evolutions ( first 128 to 512 KB ram, then from one to two floppies, and only on the third "model" did they add a hard drive, unless I'm forgetting the step up from 400 KB to 800 KB floppies as well).

The point is that Apple has minimum specs for their iPods, and one of those is a minimum storage size. This appears to be 1.5 -2 GB, and in spring of 2004 flash could not be used to hit this minimum AND be price competitive.

But down the road it's almost GUARANTEED that micro hard drives will be replaced by solid state flash storage - here's their comparisons:

Advantages:

micro - HD's -
1. lower price per GB at current time

flash-based storage -
1. more reliable with no moving parts
2. more shock resistant
3. uses less power so longer use by end user
4. lower failure rate reduces warranty costs

At the present time, the low cost per GB is what drives the micro-HD usage in iPods, but once flash based begins to come close (factoring in reduced warranty expenses, which is a BIG issue in manufacturing pricing), Apple will and should switch to flash in a heart beat.

It may not happen this Christmas, but the industry marches on. Apple included HD on it's Mac's, it dropped the Apple network connector to go to Ethernet, switched from SCSI to ATA and FW, dropped floppy drives from it's computers, and switched from ADB to USB.

The smaller iPods WILL be flash-based in a few years, regardless of Steve's rants about crappy current units that are thrown in a drawer.

[xarafan]

Microsoft will be using Flash-memory (from M-Systems) in their new Xbox2. If they can have a high capacity flashdrive for a reasonable price, Apple can...
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=dev&aid=3033

blackTIE

The high end photo flash cards have capacities of 8 GB and write speeds approaching 20 MB / sec. - but they cost some $$$. Backing off to non-cutting edge stuff, though, really brings down the prices.

Before the mini came out, I was talking about Flash cards on this forum and it was amazing how ignorant some were, claiming they were old technology (I guess that's true about everything, though ... :p ).

I imagine that in 4-5 years all smaller music devices will be flash based, if for nothing else than to lower warranty and breakage costs!

Some people complain that the capacities are too low - but they have gone up 20 fold in 3 years, allowing for a set price. Retail prices for 1GB cards are about $50, so volume / wholesale they must be starting to converge with small hard drives like in the mini.

[iGary]

They have a long wat to go.

The cheapest 1gb 60X CF Cards I buy are around 90.00. Even wholesale, with a player, you are in Mini territory. I will concede that it is a future possibility. This year?

Nah.

[corywoolf]

apple will not make a flash player ever. it's just not happenin. they will come out with a 60 gb ipod and a new mini. the mini will probably just have a few monior tweeks. i think delphi might be coming out with a deck for your car that incorporates an ipod slot. apple and delphi made the liquid cooled g5, so maybe they will collaborate again, or already have????

just a thought ;)

[må¥å]

Saw the MWSF stream again.

This would make sense for Apple to go after the low end flash market.

If you follow the iPod market share, Steve says that the iPod is to compete with the HDD mp3 players (31% Market Share), mini is to compete with the high end flash market (31% Market Share) and the low end flash market was left so it would make sense to go after the remainder 31% market share in the low flash mp3 player market.

Some might say what happened to the 7% that is other, various markets and companies who have players.


This would seem very possible for Apple to take a bite into the remainder 31% of the low flash market.

This will HAPPEN. :D


For those Apple or shall I say Steve never said anything about not wanting the low end, it was only time and that time will be MWSF 05. :)

[GregA]

Do you think this would be completely Flash based, or would there also be a smaller internal hard drive? If so, I can see this being very appealing to digital photographers who could fill up a card with pics, and dump them onto an ipod and keep shooting.That doesn't need flash memory to happen. I've met several tourists with a digital camera and an iPod - they keep using up their camera memory, they'd love to plug the camera into the iPod and upload to the iPod. Not for viewing, just to save them.

(Now get your iPod to upload them automatically to .Mac slideshows and that'd be pretty snazzy...)

[Mechcozmo]

I think that Apple could make a nice iPod that is flash based, but it would be the equal of the mini nowadays. So, you replace the current mini with something better and create a 3, maybe 4 gig iPod mini.

Maybe...

I'll still have my 5GB iPod, which I've dropped from waist heigh while playing and it survived...still has 8 hour charge...built like a tank. I like the new ones, but I dont have the $$$ for it. A lower end flash one would be nice, but I would need something bigger than 4GB.

The 15GB iPod suits my fancy, and I would love to get one...right size for me, and right price around now. If only I could find a few more pennies on the sidewalk.... :rolleyes:

[mrsebastian]

if this is true that apple is making a new player, of which i have serious doubts, it would actually be a very good idea. especially if apple can create a lower priced player for the masses, say like in the $99 range. perhaps at a 1gig size, followed by mini, and then ipod for those that want to spend a lil more. even if the profit margins are low, apple has been so successful with ipod and itms, they are starting to think in volume. why not sell a cheaper player and make a lil less profit on it, but you get 10 times the customers, who will also be shopping at itms and probably buy other mac products as well.

[Rantipole]

Six page thread, even though it was determined on page 1 that the information was about Rio, not Apple. :rolleyes:

[sinisterdesign]

I think this should be called something different than ipod. they should keep hardrive based music players ipod and flash ones seperate. Call it iflash or icard something like that.

and lose the brand equity that Apple has w/ the word "iPod"??!? no way. for such an odd product name (it's never been CLOSE to pod-shaped), that's one of the hottest names out there right now. if it's not an "iPod", it's just one of the many music players that falls into the "other" category.

[Rower_CPU]

Six page thread, even though it was determined on page 1 that the information was about Rio, not Apple. :rolleyes:

Hardly. Unless you think SigmaTel can only have a contract with one company at a time. Rio's deal was announced - Apple won't comment until they release the product.

[Sir_Giggles]

Apple already has the lead in the high-end and mid-range digital music player market. Why shouldn't they go after the low-end, under $200 music players? Apple will be forced into this low-end segment because, in a couple of years, digital music players will be commoditized. You can bet Microsoft is working towards this eventual goal, then the real money is in the Digital Rights' Management.

[appleface]

at dealram.com 4gb microdrives are more expensive than 4gb compact flash. maybe apple would switch to the cf to save money. added bonuses would include being able to make the mini more mini and apple could easily upgrade the mini to an 8gb animal when the price of 8gb cf cards drop.

[rtdunham]

I haven't bought an iPod because i want a solid state device for running. Apple's own people at macworld expo SF have acknowledged the current devices skip some when running, and if a vigorous bump when it's downloading add'l content from the h.d., could even damage the device. not likely, not always, but sometimes & could. Their words, not mine.

I don't need a thousand song-capacity. I need (want) to be able to download 90 minutes of music/audio book chapters/recorded talk radio for that day's run. That's all.

Now, if it had am/fm as well, it'd be a no-brainer.

terry

[Sir_Giggles]

I haven't bought an iPod because i want a solid state device for running. Apple's own people at macworld expo SF have acknowledged the current devices skip some when running, and if a vigorous bump when it's downloading add'l content from the h.d., could even damage the device. not likely, not always, but sometimes & could. Their words, not mine.

terry

I've run with my iPod mini and have had no problems with skip. I guess it depends what kind of a runner/jogger you are.

I've dropped my 2G 20GB iPod once onto hardfloor flooring, and ever since then, the HD makes a high-pitched squeal everytime the thing accesses the songs. It would be nice to have a flash-based iPod that doesn't skip or has mechanical moving parts.

iPod's strengths have always been with the navigation software, the click wheel, and the itunes integration. There's no reason for Apple not to release a sub $200 flash iPod other than they are scared it will cut into profits.

[k2k koos]

unless this thing is going to have 1Gb of memory or more, I don't see why Apple would bother, 500 songs in your pocket , fine, but 50 or less, no thanks.

[ZombieChef]

If apple did release a flash iPod i would have only one question...

Who wants to buy my mini?

[stealthboy]

Sorry guys, but a lot of the great iPod image is because of its exclusivity. Certain products have a higher price tag just to make sure not everyone and their grandmother can buy one. It maintains that status of being special, and not common. This is a huge part of the whole iPod mystique.

Imagine if Porsche put out a little $9000 compact 4-cylinder car. The entire brand would suffer because everyone could buy one and think they were cool. In the end, it would just hurt the entire brand image.

I'm all for Apple keeping the price of the iPod high. If people really want an iPod, they will save up and buy one. If not, they will buy a cheaper knock-off. It's that simple. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking Apple should be running a welfare program.

[rtdunham]

Sorry guys, but a lot of the great iPod image is because of its exclusivity. Certain products have a higher price tag just to make sure not everyone and their grandmother can buy one. It maintains that status of being special, and not common. This is a huge part of the whole iPod mystique.

Imagine if Porsche put out a little $9000 compact 4-cylinder car. The entire brand would suffer because everyone could buy one and think they were cool. In the end, it would just hurt the entire brand image.

I'm all for Apple keeping the price of the iPod high. If people really want an iPod, they will save up and buy one. If not, they will buy a cheaper knock-off. It's that simple. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking Apple should be running a welfare program.

gee, somebody tell apple to cancel the eMac. and maybe those iMacs, too. what's with those express base stations for hgalf the price of... oh, and what about....

most of this post is just misguided nonsense. Sure, image/branding can support higher prices. But there's more to it than that. That branding isn't established out of thin air--quality, design, features all go into the mix. You've also used a lot of hyperbole: No, Porsche doesn't have a $9k car, but it does have a $43k Boxster, quite a stretch from its over-$100k cars. Mercedes has stretched the range of models and prices much further, with true econo boxes in europe.
Apple computers do seem to cost more, but a lot of general 'puter industry publications do comparisons and conclude they cost about the same when feature sets are matched. See also Walt Mossberg's annual home computer-buying feature just last week in teh Wall Street Journal, same conclusion. Apple's prices are "earned" by design, features, etc., and the same is true for its audio products.
Unless you think the iPod is priced the way it is NOT because it was the easiest to use, most full featured, highest-capacity device on the market when it was introduced, but simply because it was Apple?
There's plenty of room for less expensive--even INexpensive--apple pods, if the features warrant it. You might be threatened that your iPod won't be as impressive to others if there are cheaper models too, but i think apple buyers generally are into the specs of a product, and ease of use, and apple could very successfully market a flash product at a low price point without jeopardizing the public's appreciation for the more costly--and better--pods.
imho.
td

[withnail]

Imagine if Porsche put out a little $9000 compact 4-cylinder car. The entire brand would suffer because everyone could buy one and think they were cool. In the end, it would just hurt the entire brand image.

You mean like the 914? ;) I think these were around $7k when they were new...

[Rod Rod]

I'm all for Apple keeping the price of the iPod high. If people really want an iPod, they will save up and buy one. If not, they will buy a cheaper knock-off. It's that simple. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking Apple should be running a welfare program.

This gets my vote for the most elitist post of the week. Attitudes such as this give Mac users a bad rep.

I agree with what rtdunham and withnail said. stealthboy, it's not just that Apple products cost a bit more; it's that Apple products are still a good value for the money. I'm an Apple user because it's cost-effective for me.

stealthboy's last sentence is completely wrong-headed. It's arrogant, condescending and rude as well. While stealthboy may have meant, "Hey guys let's remember Apple is in the business of making money, not losing it," he expressed that thought in a bad manner.

The counter to that argument has already been posted in this thread multiple times, but just to clarify it for stealthboy: Expanding market share increases iTunes exposure and therefore Apple's profits. A lower capacity iPod serves as either a "just-right" solution OR a "gateway" device, depending on the customer. Either way, the "just right" people AND the "gateway" people wouldn't have otherwise bought an iPod or gotten hooked on iPods enough to move up to the higher capacity/ higher priced iPods. let alone have the iTunes Music Store become so useful to them.

[billyboy]

A year or two ago Apple flash players were dismissed out of hand because of the idea that sufficient people specifically wanted to pay a premium price for multiple thousand song mp3 players, something which Apple does better than anyone, in the public's perception. Also subscription service was dismissed out of hand. But times are a-changing, mass storage is down to 4GB, as well as up, and really, now, Apple have built such a mass cult following they can dare dream of dare I say, more mass working class angles (which as a part time tefl teacher I would subscribe to, by the way) for marketing their music product ideas.

Moving product for profit is precisely what the iPod and iTunes music is all about, not part of some noble Apple dream to make the world exclusively a better high class place for a few financially well off aficionadoes with Powermac g5s. Bring on flash for $99, Id buy a couple, whereas I wouldnt buy one iPod at $200.

[GregA]

Imagine if Porsche put out a little $9000 compact 4-cylinder car. The entire brand would suffer because everyone could buy one and think they were cool. In the end, it would just hurt the entire brand image.I know this has been refuted already...

Many people say that Apple is the <pick expensive car> (eg porsche) of computers. AND, if Porsche is happy with 2% of the car market, Apple can be happy with 2% of the computer market. (I'm making up the percentages here).

That's there argument, and I'd like to relate that to what you said. If Apple wants a premium product, stick with the high end, very appealing product. And expect a smaller market share. If Apple wants to maintain or increase their marketshare with the iPod, then they'll have to address the high end AND the low end of the market at some stage

[DrGruv1]

Kids Kids Kids Kids

iPod dominates teenage mindshare, market share
October 6 - 13:16 EDT** by Larry Angell - Piper Jaffray analyst Gene Munster said today that based on a survey of 600 teenagers, Apple's iPod is dominating "mindshare and market share." Munster said in a research note that of all the high school students surveyed, 16 percent currently own an iPod and 24 percent plan to buy an iPod within the next year. Munster also noted that the iPod ranked fourth on the teens' holiday wish list--behind clothes, money, and a car--even though the iPod was not an answer option and had to be written in as a response.*Continued... *[ Email this story ]

[mfacey]

Kids Kids Kids Kids

iPod dominates teenage mindshare, market share
October 6 - 13:16 EDT** by Larry Angell - Piper Jaffray analyst Gene Munster said today that based on a survey of 600 teenagers, Apple's iPod is dominating "mindshare and market share." Munster said in a research note that of all the high school students surveyed, 16 percent currently own an iPod and 24 percent plan to buy an iPod within the next year. Munster also noted that the iPod ranked fourth on the teens' holiday wish list--behind clothes, money, and a car--even though the iPod was not an answer option and had to be written in as a response.*Continued... *[ Email this story ]


Interesting, what's the source of this article?

[DrGruv1]

go to today's macminute.com

[JoePike]

I like the idea if they can keep the price down. The unskipability is a huge upside, and they'd sell like hotcakes I'm sure in the $100-$200 range. Would not be surprised at all if they threw 2GB of flash memory into each one. That's the way to make a flash-based player worthy of the iPod name, worth Apple's time to produce, and worth the consumers' hard earned dollars. I hope it happens, it will be a sure success.

-Joe

[JoePike]

Let's not kid ourselves into thinking Apple should be running a welfare program.

But apparently they are.....

Steve's givin' away a house, for pete's sake! :cool:

http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=678

-Joe