Petition to Apple regarding video cards

[xcpk]

Not sure if anyone have had this idea before, but iam tired of the lack of video card support. I use my Mac Pro to play sometimes in bootcamp, And i would like more power than the 4870 without the need to flash the ROM of a new card.

Anyone up for a petition so send to Apple and maybe push them a little?

[maghemi]

Somehow I seriously doubt an online petition is going to do anything to sway Apple's mind on what it wants to do with video cards

[seisend]

Why didn't u buy the EVGA 285 GTX Mac Edition ? You can easily play every game out there with very good settings...

I think it's a contra point of the Mac Pro's but not worth a petition. If you are hardcore gamer and need to play daily on the highest resolution and highest advanced settings, a PC would be a far better (and less expensive) choice for this anyway.

The Mac Pro is a professional working machine.

[xcpk]

It was just an idea.
Iam using the Mac Pro with Mac OSX for about 90% of the time i use the machine. And even when iam not playing games in the win platform i could use more video power even in OSX.
I think the video hardware apple is using is quite old and outdated. This is just my opinion.

[Mackilroy]

You aren't saying anything plenty of other people haven't already said, mate. ;)

[300D]

Apple hasn't cared about video power since 2006.

[Cindori]

you can use any PC card if you only want it to work in windows


as for petitions, there was a petition when the 8800GT came and it was not compatible with 2006 / 2007 mac pros

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/geforce8800

people are still signing it, but I wouldnt say the amount of signatures is overwhelming...

but perhaps, with steam coming to OSX and all, we will see a wider range of GPU options in future.

[bluesteel]

Anyone up for a petition so send to Apple and maybe push them a little?

why are you people so negative?? a petition won't hurt. its worth a try for sure. someone has to try something.

hell yeah, i'll sign a petition!!! i've been thinking about this for quite some time. just get a petition up and running and go from there. don't be scared away by the negativity.

i'd like to see better workstation video cards for 3D programs like Maya, and better gaming cards. and at the very least, if apple doesn't offer anything as CTO, then they make their computers compatible or vice versa.

[m0squito]

Well,

Maybe Apple haven't really listened in the past, but considering that Steam is soon to be avaliable to OSX and that Apple already clearly stated with iTunes, iPhone and iPods - that they want to be in the front end of entertainment (Music, movies etc).

With the entertainment-segment in mind, I surely would think that they in the future would have to consider that gaming is yet another way to get consumers to buy their products. And that it would steal even more users from the PC-market. Nintendo allready declared that the upcomming iPhone 4G is a serious threat to their hand held consoles, so why beat around the bush?

Have any any one really tried to get a serious amount of names together to present to Apple? I mean, not just talk about it generally in various forums online - but in a serious petition; the power of many, can many times be very convincing. if done properly.

And buying another PC is not the proper way as I see it; personally I am just thinking about disassembling my old PC completely, in order to save space and money. Why let more machines do the job that one peice of equipment can handle brilliantly on it's own? I'm quite pro-Mac nower days, and I surely would not miss my PC at all, if I was able to game in the same fashion on my Mac as I did on my previous PC.

At least I hope for a Gaming-future on the Mac, and I think that if Apple do not provide us with a proper way to game on it, the hackintosh-scene will flourish and hold a potentially big market of Apple-buyers back.

At least that's my humble opinion. :)


Cheers,
m0

[nasabaer]

i think you are right.
Just now as steam will come to mac this week i think about purchasing a new mac.
i already sold my mac mini.
i still hope for a gamer mac ;)

mac mini = to slow
imac = not the quality that i prefer - and still the 4850 too low for the 27" resolution.
mac pro = outdated

a new mac pro .. maybe - but i would still prefer the "mac midi".. quadcore and space for 2 hard drives and a nice videocard (ati 5870)
that would be an instant purchase from my side - and i think from many many others.
people are crying for an headless imac for some years already. :o

btw: i will sign this petition

[goodcow]

why are you people so negative?? a petition won't hurt. its worth a try for sure. someone has to try something.

Petitions are useless.

You have a much better shot at sending Steve very succinct requests via E-Mail at sjobs@apple.com.

[xcpk]

Petitions are useless.

You have a much better shot at sending Steve very succinct requests via E-Mail at sjobs@apple.com.

Then why dont we create an petition with alot of signatures to send directly to Steve him self?
I think that would have been a much greater way to do it instead of one single person "demands" it.

[m0squito]

Petitions are useless.

You have a much better shot at sending Steve very succinct requests via E-Mail at sjobs@apple.com.

I just got a better idea! (i hope) =D

Steam some times do polls for various reasons. Perhaps Steam would be the propper way to adress this, and then have Steam to bring this to Apple? Steam (Valve?) sure has more muscles to put in to this then just us users alone.

How do we do this? Any one knows?

[xcpk]

I just got a better idea! (i hope) =D

Steam some times do polls for various reasons. Perhaps Steam would be the propper way to adress this, and then have Steam to bring this to Apple? Steam (Valve?) sure has more muscles to put in to this then just us users alone.

How do we do this? Any one knows?

Great idea! We just have to send a request to the valve team at seampowered.com maybe?

[m0squito]

Great idea! We just have to send a request to the valve team at seampowered.com maybe?

Very well then. Let us just await Steram first then. I'm sure that Steam for OSX will result in an download frenzy, and that alone should send a signal to Apple, it sure would be good to have fresh numbers to present after a poll.

I'm sure Valve would support our cause, since it would broaden their potential market. =)

[Spulture]

You can submit your feedback to Apple with information regarding video card support for the Mac Pro at http://www.apple.com/feedback/macpro.html

[TheStrudel]

Apple hasn't cared about video power since 2006.

They cared in 2006?

With regards to feedback, use 's website. But if you expect a petition or anything like that to work better than far more popular features people clamor for, you're in for a rude awakening.

If the 2010 Mac Pro comes out soon with a 5870 BTO, it'll actually be current. I don't know what more you could ask for, aside from more/better workstation cards and 10-bit color support in OS X.

[Icaras]

How about a petition to just get the damned 2010 Mac Pro released sometime this year?

[ventro]

Not sure if anyone have had this idea before, but iam tired of the lack of video card support. I use my Mac Pro to play sometimes in bootcamp, And i would like more power than the 4870 without the need to flash the ROM of a new card.

Anyone up for a petition so send to Apple and maybe push them a little?
Petitions dont do anything. An email to Steve Jobs could, however.

[rajbonham]

If the 2010 Mac Pro comes out.

There. End of sentence.

[m0squito]

Well, it seems like we'd better await two things before acting:

1) Steam, it would give us a hint about the actual interest of gaming on a Mac, and we could perhaps benefit from having Steam on our side when presenting our cause.

2) The release of the new MacPro, it could give us a hint about the future of gaming cards. At least one or two new cards should be presented with the releas. I'd say, anything else would be just wrong.


.m0

[VirtualRain]

Last I checked Apple doesn't make video cards.

You guys should petition ATI and/or NVIDIA if you want their cards to work in a Mac. Apple has nothing to do with it. The GPU vendors need to equip their cards with EFI compatible firmware and OSX drivers. There's no need for Apple to get involved at all.

The reason there is limited GPU support for the Mac Pro is because the market is ridiculously small. ATI/NVIDIA probably look at the market size data and laugh. If they do build a card, they have to price it $200 more than the BIOS equivalent to make enough money to justify the investment, and then all you guys do is complain and reflash PC cards... so what do you expect?!

Every time you guys buy a PC card and reflash it rather than buying an Mac specific card you are putting another nail in the Mac GPU coffin. It's a vicious cycle that is only spiraling down.

[m0squito]

Last I checked Apple doesn't make video cards.

You guys should petition ATI and/or NVIDIA if you want their cards to work in a Mac. Apple has nothing to do with it. The GPU vendors need to equip their cards with EFI compatible firmware and OSX drivers. There's no need for Apple to get involved at all.

The reason there is limited GPU support for the Mac Pro is because the market is ridiculously small. ATI/NVIDIA probably look at the market size data and laugh. If they do build a card, they have to price it $200 more than the BIOS equivalent to make enough money to justify the investment, and then all you guys do is complain and reflash PC cards... so what do you expect?!

Every time you guys buy a PC card and reflash it rather than buying an Mac specific card you are putting another nail in the Mac GPU coffin. It's a vicious cycle that is only spiraling down.


Don't mean to be ignorant or anything, but since the PC and Apple cards are basicly the same - I reckon it would not be much of an effort to create an automated process in order to make EFI-roms.

And I think the hack sceene of PC-cards proves me right. It's not that hard to convert PC-cards into Apple ditos. It would be nice with a greater range of cards for OSX and have all the warranties with it and stuff.


:m0

[Cindori]

If they do build a card, they have to price it $200 more than the BIOS equivalent to make enough money to justify the investment, and then all you guys do is complain and reflash PC cards... so what do you expect?!


A few bytes of data more in the firmware requires raising price $200 per unit? Wow.

[m0squito]

Double post. Sorry

[Umbongo]

Don't mean to be ignorant or anything, but since the PC and Apple cards are basicly the same - I reckon it would not be much of an effort to create an automated process in order to make EFI-roms.

And I think the hack sceene of PC-cards proves me right. It's not that hard to convert PC-cards into Apple ditos. It would be nice with a greater range of cards for OSX and have all the warranties with it and stuff.


:m0

Official cards have to have a lot more engineering and testing done with them. If there was a market for it then you'd see them available.

[skotopes]

A few bytes of data more in the firmware requires raising price $200 per unit? Wow.

no it`s not problem bios/vesa-extension code is highly portable to efi. More you can write extensions and compile them in byte code (U)EFI is able to execute it.

So most difficult part is drivers: no one from final vendors(i mean those companies who only creates boards and just solders GPU on it) is allowed to modify drivers. No one wants to support zoo. The only one thing that they can modify is placed in card-firmware - BIOS extension that performs card init. But even there: they not interesting to create there own implementation: they using reference one with a small modifications.

Back to our PC cards: if the only one way to initialize it properly is BIOS extension execution so we must call it from EFI. Of cause it`s possible to do it. But as all we know it`s not apple way to support old interfaces and devices. And i`m agree with them.

from all this **** we can extract 2 problems:

1) Card init Firmware. (from final vendors)
2) Card drivers. (from chip makers)

I do not see apple in this list. )

[Cindori]

So most difficult part is drivers: no one from final vendors(i mean those companies who only creates boards and just solders GPU on it) is allowed to modify drivers. No one wants to support zoo. The only one thing that they can modify is placed in card-firmware - BIOS extension that performs card init. But even there: they not interesting to create there own implementation: they using reference one with a small modifications.


So how about the 285GTX for Mac. it was not created by Nvidia, but by EVGA, which also supplied the drivers.

[phaedarus]

Gaming on the Mac Pro will never reach parity of the PC or consoles and thus, Mac owners will never experience the plethora of video card options available to the PC. Get over it.

I've had to come to that painful realization myself with the previous PowerMacs I owned. I had hoped that the switch to Intel would open the floodgates for Mac gaming but that didn't quite happen, did it?

After all, what incentive is there for game development companies, let alone video card manufacturers, to cater to such a small market that the Mac Pro represents? It's just one more platform to allocate support resources to and one that may not even prove to be worth the effort.

Assuming a game company decides to delve into the Mac market, Mac users still will not be satisfied.

Why? Because unlike their PC counterparts, Mac users will be waiting that much longer for their game to be released and when it finally arrives, the PC version of the game will be reduced by $20 while you'll still be paying full price for yours.

Moreover, level editors are almost never made for OSX. They're made for Windows. So again, you'll be paying full price for a late AND incomplete product. As a Mac user in the gaming world (or 3D animation for that matter), you're a second-class citizen.

The sole reason most games and gaming hardware is made available to the Mac platform at all is because their directors happen to be fond of the Mac - not because of overwhelming market opportunity. Blizzard is one such company whose movers and shakers within the development team like Macs. The majority of game developers do not share that sentiment.

In fact, Steve Jobs would prefer you not to use your Mac Pro for gaming, he wants you to buy an iPhone, Ipod or iPad (because he no longer cares about the professional market, it's all about consumers now) and game with that from the lush selection of games from the App store (from which Apple gets a cut).

Developers see this too and have a greater interest in catering to the mobile market than Apple desktop users.

If you're hell bent on gaming on your Mac without bootcamp, then your energies would be far better focused on supporting cloud based gaming services such as OnLive which, in theory, nullifies hardware requirements to play the latest games - on any platform.

[Cindori]

dude, phaedarus, you are way behind :rolleyes:

Steam is releasing for Mac tomorrow, and Steam has ported all their Source Engine games (Left for dead 2, Half Life, Counter Strike, Team Fortress, Portal) to Mac using native OpenGL graphics. This is the biggest leap in Mac Gaming History.

And all the PC games you buy in Steam, you will have free access to the Mac version. :)

They also stated "We are treating the Mac as a tier-1 platform so all of our future games will release simultaneously on Mac and PC"

They even got help from Apple in doing this.
(http://news.softpedia.com/news/Valve-Director-Apple-Helped-Porting-Steam-to-the-Mac-136929.shtml)


Even DICE is interested in releasing the new Bad Company 2 game for Mac!
(http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/09/dice-investigating-bad-company-2-on-mac/)



your whole post is so wrong! :D



..SO wrong! :D

[Icaras]

dude, phaedarus, you are way behind :rolleyes:

Steam is releasing for Mac tomorrow, and Steam has ported all their Source Engine games (Left for dead 2, Half Life, Counter Strike, Team Fortress, Portal) to Mac using native OpenGL graphics. This is the biggest leap in Mac Gaming History.

And all the PC games you buy in Steam, you will have free access to the Mac version. :)

They also stated "We are treating the Mac as a tier-1 platform so all of our future games will release simultaneously on Mac and PC"

They even got help from Apple in doing this.
(http://news.softpedia.com/news/Valve-Director-Apple-Helped-Porting-Steam-to-the-Mac-136929.shtml)


Even DICE is interested in releasing the new Bad Company 2 game for Mac!
(http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/09/dice-investigating-bad-company-2-on-mac/)



your whole post is so wrong! :D



..SO wrong! :D

Totally agree! I've been counting the days until tomorrow.

So even if the Mac Pro hasn't come out yet, I can at least kill some time on Steam now instead of lingering too long on these forums lol. :p

But yes, gaming just got serious on the Mac. I'd expect video card offerings to improve dramatically from here on out.

[phaedarus]

dude, phaedarus, you are way behind :rolleyes:

Steam is releasing for Mac tomorrow, and Steam has ported all their Source Engine games (Left for dead 2, Half Life, Counter Strike, Team Fortress, Portal) to Mac using native OpenGL graphics. This is the biggest leap in Mac Gaming History.

And all the PC games you buy in Steam, you will have free access to the Mac version. :)

They also stated "We are treating the Mac as a tier-1 platform so all of our future games will release simultaneously on Mac and PC"

They even got help from Apple in doing this.
(http://news.softpedia.com/news/Valve-Director-Apple-Helped-Porting-Steam-to-the-Mac-136929.shtml)


Even DICE is interested in releasing the new Bad Company 2 game for Mac!
(http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/09/dice-investigating-bad-company-2-on-mac/)



your whole post is so wrong! :D



..SO wrong! :D



WOW! Source engine games will be released simultaneously for the OSX. That's excellent news, dude!

Except how long did it take to get to this point? 6 years for a great classic like HL2 to finally be made available on OSX? I love the idea that future source-based games will be made available to the Mac platform except... current developers aren't really enamoured with the source engine anymore.

Don't get me wrong, playing some of those great titles is past due on the Mac platform. But how long will I have to wait before other developers decide to jump over? When can I play Crysis? S.T.A.L.K.E.R.? Prototype? GTA? F.E.A.R.?

I recently wrote to Crytek Germany to gauge their interest for OSX. Their reply was muddied with corporate mumbo jumbo but hovered more or less on "no plans to support OSX at this time".

Access to source games is nice. But not quite enough for me as a serious gamer. We deserve access to all the gaming world has to offer and not every game developer will be willing to port or simultaneously develop their titles for OSX.

The correct path is to get cloud computing off the ground where hardware and OS platforms are irrelevant.

[VirtualRain]

So how about the 285GTX for Mac. it was not created by Nvidia, but by EVGA, which also supplied the drivers.

That was a bold move by EVGA... but how many people here actually purchased one? I suspect most people flashed a cheaper PC card and stole the drivers, pretty much ensuring that EVGA will not repeat this mistake with the latest gen NVIDIA cards.

[The Rominator]

That was a bold move by EVGA... but how many people here actually purchased one? I suspect most people flashed a cheaper PC card and stole the drivers, pretty much ensuring that EVGA will not repeat this mistake with the latest gen NVIDIA cards.

Due to it's need for a 256K EEPROM chip and literally NONE of the PC GTX285s checked so far having one...flashing GTX285 is basically a no go.

I have done fewer than 10.

Soldering a new SOIC8 chip on a $300 GPU is dicey, and requires removing 12 screws first. A couple other people have tried and created doorstops.

[Gomff]

Gaming just isn't a priority for Apple. They'll never let multiple third parties produce and develop Mac cards in volume because they're (a) Massive control freaks (b) Paranoid about bad user experience and (c) Don't want to cannibalize New Mac sales by extending the lives of existing systems with upgrades.

I do all my gaming on an Xbox. Less hassle, everyone has the same hardware and it looks OK in HD.

[VirtualRain]

Due to it's need for a 256K EEPROM chip and literally NONE of the PC GTX285s checked so far having one...flashing GTX285 is basically a no go.

I have done fewer than 10.

Soldering a new SOIC8 chip on a $300 GPU is dicey, and requires removing 12 screws first. A couple other people have tried and created doorstops.

I see... I haven't been following the journey on that card. Hopefully that bodes well for EVGA and the future of graphics cards on the Mac Pro. I'm sure if all people accounting for the over 50,000 views on Netkas' thread purchased the Mac version of the card, we'd see some 480's soon.

Gaming just isn't a priority for Apple. They'll never let multiple third parties produce and develop Mac cards in volume because they're (a) Massive control freaks (b) Paranoid about bad user experience and (c) Don't want to cannibalize New Mac sales by extending the lives of existing systems with upgrades.

I do all my gaming on an Xbox. Less hassle, everyone has the same hardware and it looks OK in HD.

It's not that gaming isn't a priority for Apple. I'm sure they would welcome it - it's just that they don't control it. They don't make GPU's and aren't a gaming software studio house.

The fact is that gaming on a computer in general is in decline... just walk into any game shop and see how much shelf space is reserved for PC games! Apple has, what? 7-10% share of the computer market, and maybe 5-10% of those are desktop/iMacs capable of running a decent GPU? If my math is even close to correct, it means that Apple gamers represent less than a percent of the PC gaming market which is already in steady decline compared to consoles.

BTW, I too game on a console (PS3)... even though I'm a die-hard mouse FPS fan... thank god for my FragFX.

[deconstruct60]

Apple has, what? 7-10% share of the computer market, and maybe 5-10% of those are desktop/iMacs capable of running a decent GPU? .

Apple has about 4% of worldwide market for PCs. It is only 7-10% when count in selective markets like US retail were the demographics get skewed (akin to the periodic "Macs top greater than $1,000 PC market" stories.

Surveys like this make it look like PC gaming is in retreat:
http://games.venturebeat.com/2010/05/09/americans-spend-25-3b-each-year-on-video-games/

However, what they tend to skip over are the free games folks play (since primarily interested in counting money as opposed to usage. )

It isn't just about desktops running a decent GPU. Laptops can run a decent ( from a mainstream perspective) GPU. Consoles don't have new bleeding edge GPUs in them every year or every other year for that matter. The core of the gaming market isn't aimed at the upper edge where the GPU is straining to deliver frames.

The issue with PCI-e cards is that it is only MacPros you can put these in. So yes for the "must have a GPU released in last 6 months" game, it is a very small market to target.

[DesmoPilot]

But yes, gaming just got serious on the Mac.

Hardly got "serious" if you ask me.