video shows US pilots killing group of Iraqi civs

[diamond geezer]

link (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=569207)

By Andrew Buncombe in Washington

06 October 2004

The Pentagon said yesterday it was investigating cockpit video footage that shows American pilots attacking and killing a group of apparently unarmed Iraqi civilians.

The 30-second clip shows the pilot targeting the group of people in a street in the city of Fallujah and asking his mission controllers whether he should "take them out". He is told to do so and, shortly afterwards, the footage shows a huge explosion where the people were. A second voice can be heard on the clip saying: "Oh, dude."

The existence of the video, taken last April inside the cockpit of a US F-16 fighter has been known for some time, though last night's broadcast by Channel 4 News is believed to be the first time a mainstream broadcaster has shown the footage.

At no point during the exchange between the pilot and controllers does anyone ask whether the Iraqis are armed or posing a threat. Critics say it proves war crimes are being committed.

For the video go here ( “http://globalresearch.ca/images/Massacre%20of%20Civilians.wmv)

Would insurgents from a large group and then walk casually down the middle of the road? I don't think so.

No sign of this story on US new sites. Hardly surprising the only Iraqi deaths that get reported are those killed by "insurgents".

[diamond geezer]

If that video link doesn't work for you try going here (http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=3716) and clicking the link in the story.

[SiliconAddict]

I agree with the article. I think this is serious grounds for war crimes. :mad: :mad:

[Macs R Us]

I doubt its very legit... I don't think that could actully happen...

[Zaid]

I agree with the article. I think this is serious grounds for war crimes. :mad: :mad:

Agreed.

Far from being a disorganised mess orchastrated by a blundering incompetent military, as is often portrayed in the media, the occupation of Iraq is begining to appear (to me at any rate) as a systematicly cruel and callous occupation. :mad:

[SiliconAddict]

I doubt its very legit... I don't think that could actully happen...

:mad: Yah right. Just like Abu Ghurayb could never happen. How many other war crimes are going on over then that are just ignored, Pull your head out of the ground and realize America's **** doesn't smell any better then anyone else's. A human in the US is a human in Iraq, is a human in China. We all are depraved screeching little monkey's at the end of the day that would sooner slap someone over the head with a big wooden club as shake their hand.

[bubbamac]

This is a very old clip, and old news. I'm going from memory here, but I seem to recall that the 'civilians' were holed up in some kind of meeting of the combatatants. The building that they came out of is, I believe, a mosque - which is untouchable. When they all came out, well, they're targets.

Gotta watch out who you fraternize with.

[Backtothemac]

Agreed.

Far from being a disorganised mess orchastrated by a blundering incompetent military, as is often portrayed in the media, the occupation of Iraq is begining to appear (to me at any rate) as a systematicly cruel and callous occupation. :mad:

Ok, here is where we differ. You can disagree with the war, with the policy, with the "occupation :rolleyes: " but how dare you insult the men and women who are defending this country doing as they are ORDERED to do.

First off, we do not have Iraq under and Occupation. We will leave. One way or the other. Iraq isn't going to be the 52nd state.

But, man, you are way off base with the insults of the military.

[Backtothemac]

link (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=569207)



For the video go here ( “http://globalresearch.ca/images/Massacre%20of%20Civilians.wmv)

Would insurgents from a large group and then walk casually down the middle of the road? I don't think so.

No sign of this story on US new sites. Hardly surprising the only Iraqi deaths that get reported are those killed by "insurgents".

DG, it appears to me, that the people in the street were running, or moving briskly I should say. We don't know anything about this other than the 30 sec. What if those people had been at a terror meeting? What if they had earlier been firing upon the US warplane, what if?

How do we know they were civilians? That video is old. Has been played, and the pilots have never been charged.

Not everything in print is as it appears, even if it has a 30 sec video clip.

[Zaid]

This is a very old clip, and old news. I'm going from memory here, but I seem to recall that the 'civilians' were holed up in some kind of meeting of the combatatants. The building that they came out of is, I believe, a mosque - which is untouchable. When they all came out, well, they're targets.

Gotta watch out who you fraternize with.

Well of course 5 times a day there are going to be lots of people coming out of mosques. So i guess they're all targets, which makes most iraqis targets everyday?

That aside, now that you mention it, i do seem to remember something about a video clip like this a while back. Strange how so many things have happend that something like this can just be lost in the noise. Old news or not, its still appalling!

[blackfox]

Zim, it appears to me, that the people in the street were running, or moving briskly I should say. We don't know anything about this other than the 30 sec. What if those people had been at a terror meeting? What if they had earlier been firing upon the US warplane, what if?

How do we know they were civilians? That video is old. Has been played, and the pilots have never been charged.

Not everything in print is as it appears, even if it has a 30 sec video clip.
Hey BTTM, need some coffee? You were replying to ol' diamond geezer, not zim...perhaps it was force of habit...

As for the topic, in and of itself, the clip is pretty condemning...I do not know of the larger context, but it would seem to need to be something pretty important to justify killing of unarmed personnel, affiliated with insurgents or not.

I am not sure anyone is bad-mouthing the military as a whole here (in reference to another of your posts), but much like Abu Ghirab, if a person in uniform makes a criminal mistake, they should be punished and rightly condemned, which is not a comment on the military personnel as a whole...as for them not being charged, well, would those at Abu Ghirab have been if not for widespread circulation of the photos? Even then many who propably should've been held culpable and punished were not (ie superiors)

Frankly, I do not know what to make of this, but if you are anything like me, the gravity of the imagery would make me think twice about dismissing it out-of-hand.

If anyone has any follow-up on this (since it is an old clip) let me know...

[Backtothemac]

Sorry Zim!

Actually, can you really tell if they are armed?

I have watched that video numerous times, and cannot tell if they are armed or not.

[blackfox]

Sorry Zim!

what do you mean?

Are you messing with me?

Or someone? I think I need the coffee...

[wordmunger]

The video proves nothing. What we need is the context. You can't tell if they are armed, can't tell why the pilot is there in the first place. Maybe ground forces in the area were taking fire from the mosque. Maybe innocent civilians were just going for a stroll (though these people look more like they were running than walking. The Fallujah 10K?).

Most reports I've seen suggest that U.S. troops take substantial measures to avoid civilian casualties. Obviously they can do better, but this video in itself certainly doesn't prove that the U.S. is targeting civilians.

Don't get me wrong, I think the war in Iraq, and especially the way in which it was prosecuted, was wrong, but we can't take a video clip like this without knowing its context and claim it's an atrocity.

[blackfox]

The video proves nothing. What we need is the context. You can't tell if they are armed, can't tell why the pilot is there in the first place. Maybe ground forces in the area were taking fire from the mosque. Maybe innocent civilians were just going for a stroll (though these people look more like they were running than walking. The Fallujah 10K?).

Most reports I've seen suggest that U.S. troops take substantial measures to avoid civilian casualties. Obviously they can do better, but this video in itself certainly doesn't prove that the U.S. is targeting civilians.

Don't get me wrong, I think the war in Iraq, and especially the way in which it was prosecuted, was wrong, but we can't take a video clip like this without knowing its context and claim it's an atrocity.

First of all, I agree with the larger point of having the proper context, as I noted in my previous post. As for your specific points:

No, you can't tell if they were armed, but there wasn't any muzzle-flashes that often show up on video, or any mention of the aircraft being fired-upon. I am not aware if just being armed is a crime in Iraq (since everyone is allowed an AK47). What they were doing prior to the video could be key, however.

As for the walking/running comment, I would bloody well be running to if there was an American aircraft bearing down on me...you do make an excellent point on why the plane was there in the first place, however...

I do think it is an atrocity, but it might be a legitimate tactic of War, which doesn't make it any better...there is something profoundly unfair about a group of people, who may be the enemy, lightly armed, being taken out with a big explosion...

[wordmunger]

I do think it is an atrocity, but it might be a legitimate tactic of War, which doesn't make it any better...there is something profoundly unfair about a group of people, who may be the enemy, lightly armed, being taken out with a big explosion...

I still don't think there's any way to determine, solely from this video, whether the tactics used were "unfair." It's certainly unfair to use a mosque, or any holy site, or "civilians" as shields. Perhaps the mob was meant to "shield" a terrorist leader.

Would you think these tactics were unfair if Osama Bin Laden were in the middle of that crowd (obviously he wasn't, but we can hope, can't we)?

If you simply believe that killing people in any case is "unfair" or wrong, then why point to this specific example? There are thousands of others.

Again, I say all of this while still believing that Iraq is the "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time."

[Zaid]

Ok, here is where we differ. You can disagree with the war, with the policy, with the "occupation :rolleyes: " but how dare you insult the men and women who are defending this country doing as they are ORDERED to do.

First off, we do not have Iraq under and Occupation. We will leave. One way or the other. Iraq isn't going to be the 52nd state.

But, man, you are way off base with the insults of the military.


Whoa, I'm not sure how to react to this. Firstly my aim was not to insult anyone, least of all the soldiers in the field. As you pointed out they're following orders. The statement was directed at the military top brass and the current US administration.

Also I'm not sure why members of the military should be beyond reproach. I generally have the highest respect for people willing to die to save my sorry arse, but that respect ends when said people start committing war crimes. Members of the armed forces are still accountable for their actions.

As an aside the question of whether they are in Iraq defending your country is open to question.

Finally, whether or not the US intends to stay in Iraq in no way changes the fact that the US invaded and occupied Iraq. Thus until they withdraw, or full sovereignty is returned to the Iraqis, the US will be one of the occupying powers and hence will be in occupation of Iraq. Occupation != annexation or colonisation.

[wwworry]

Why look at one clip? We know there are over 13,000 civilians killed already including a lot of children, wedding parties, people on their way to the store or just standing there minding their own business.

Are you going to justify all of them by saying "maybe they were just coming out of a mosque", like that is a crime punishable by death?

It just shows when you send a bunch of people into another country with heavy weapons there is going to be a lot of needless death. With heavy weapons the consequences of a mistake are large numbers killed, families in ruin for years and new ever lasting declared enemies.

[mischief]

The whole point of insurgent warfare is to blur the line between bystanders and illegal combatants. When both the armed "enemy" and the unarmed populace are in the same style of dress, openly belligerant and taking refuge in the same places.

2 words: Mi Lai.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Did we learn anything from vietnam? oh thats right our president and vice president both managed to dodge that one and missed the lesson. ( chickenhawks)! so here we go again 30 years later.

[wordmunger]

The whole point of insurgent warfare is to blur the line between bystanders and illegal combatants. When both the armed "enemy" and the unarmed populace are in the same style of dress, openly belligerant and taking refuge in the same places.

2 words: Mi Lai.
Yup. It's the American Way. George Washington wrote the book on it, and the Viet Cong used it as a manual.

[diamond geezer]

Most reports I've seen suggest that U.S. troops take substantial measures to avoid civilian casualties. Obviously they can do better, but this video in itself certainly doesn't prove that the U.S. is targeting civilians.


What organisations are doing the reporting? US embedded media?

[diamond geezer]

I still don't think there's any way to determine, solely from this video, whether the tactics used were "unfair." It's certainly unfair to use a mosque, or any holy site, or "civilians" as shields. Perhaps the mob was meant to "shield" a terrorist leader.

Would you think these tactics were unfair if Osama Bin Laden were in the middle of that crowd (obviously he wasn't, but we can hope, can't we)?

If you simply believe that killing people in any case is "unfair" or wrong, then why point to this specific example? There are thousands of others.

Again, I say all of this while still believing that Iraq is the "wrong war, wrong place, wrong time."

So a fair fight in your eyes is for all the Iraqis who are anti-invasion to stand together out in the desert and wait for one of your "heroes" sitting in absolute safety in his ship in the Gulf, or a mile up in a plane to launch a missle?

Are kill ratios of at least 30-1 fair? Is claiming that a basically defenseless country, poses a threat to the most powerful nation on Earth and then using that as an excuse to invade, Fair?

War isn't fair, but to hear you complain that the iraqis aren't making it even easier for you lot to slaughter them is pathetic.

[solvs]

I doubt its very legit... I don't think that could actully happen...
Whether this particular situation is legit or not, could and has.

Did we learn anything from vietnam? oh thats right our president and vice president both managed to dodge that one and missed the lesson. ( chickenhawks)! so here we go again 30 years later.
If we do not learn from our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them.

It is important to remember that, just like the Rodney King incident, there are good people and bad in any situation. Good cops, bad cops... good troops, bad troops. What's important is to prosecute the bad ones to show that this type of thing is not tolerated by the good ones. To separate them from those who make mistakes and conduct malicious behavior.

It would be best not to have blind faith and bury your head in the sand Macs R US out of respect to those who serve valiantly, and made to look bad by these rogues.