Feel like I got cheated by Apple

[Amasashi]

Here's a long story short.

About two and a half weeks ago, I bought an iMac 27". The guy assured me that he would keep opening new machines for me until I got one that was perfect. First one we opened was good. No yellow-tinting, no flickering, no black spots, and no dead pixels. We ran PiXel Check 2 times just to make sure. He checked, I checked, we both double checked. Satisfied, I took my iMac home. He said that should any problems arise, I should bring the iMac back and he'll exchange a brand new one for me right on the spot. Within 14 days, of course.

After I got home, I ran PiXel Check a third time just to make sure. There were absolutely no pixel defects.

Now fast forward 16 days later. Yesterday, while editing a photo, I noticed what appeared to be a pixel defect. After making sure it wasn't anything outside of the screen, I ran PiXel Check again, and whoa and behold, there was a stuck red pixel in the upper right grid on the screen. Stuck pixels are worse than dead pixels, in my opinion, and though it was in the upper right grid of the screen, it was located on the bottom left corner of the grid, which means it's pretty damn close to the center of the screen, enough so that it's fairly noticeable (especially now that I know it's there) during routine computer use.

So I called the Apple Store, but unfortunately I was past the 14-day return policy, so they couldn't (or wouldn't) give me a new iMac. Instead, they said it would have to be sent back and repaired. No problem, I can wait. However, Apple's policy on pixel defects is that there has to be at least 3 (or 5, depending on who you talk to) pixel defects before they're willing to replace the screen, so unless more defective pixels start popping up, I'm going to have to live with this stuck red pixel that's practically in the center of the screen.

Now I understand that LCD monitors are not perfect and that there's the off-chance you'll get a pixel defect. It's just part of the manufacturing process. What I'm bitching about here is that Apple's warranty is too narrow in scope. Macs cost a premium price, and in return I expect premium service. To be fair, I've always had great customer service from Apple, and the people at the Apple Store are always very helpful and friendly. But Apple really needs to step up its policy regarding defective pixels. Some PC brands go as far as offering free repair for even one defective pixel in a span of 3 years. Because come on, the screen is like one of most important components of a computer. You're looking at the damn thing 100% of the time! To expect customers to make their peace with even one defective pixel is unreasonable considering how much a Mac costs.

And don't let anyone give you that crap about how 14 days is enough time because if there aren't any defective pixels at the time of purchase, there will never be any defective pixels, ever. Mine was perfect at the store before spawning a defective pixel 16 days later.

I still love Apple, and I still love Macs. But why can't Apple fix display issues as liberally as they do other hardware problems? This policy flat out sucks.

[Beaverman3001]

Remove the glass, rub the stuck pixels area, fixes it most of the time.

[kresh]

This policy flat out sucks.

My issue with Apple's stuck/dead pixel policy is that it is count based and not location based. I could live with 10 dead pixels if they were on the very top line and at the right edge, I would never notice them. On the other hand a stuck, bright red, pixel right smack in the middle of the display is amazingly annoying.

Since location annoyance is subjective then the Apple store managers should (or should be able to) take the location of the pixel into consideration, despite the quantity.

That being said I realize that Apple has to draw the line somewhere, I just wish that you were not on the wrong side of that line.

[Amasashi]

Nope, tried that already, ran some color programs too. Still red as hell :-(

[Vikz]

Unfortunately, Apple doesn't make the display so they cant in itself check that all displays are 100% good. since apple has more control over its other components then you see that those problems are resolved better than the display ones like GPU's disck drives etc.

As a technician i can tell you from my experience that 1 stuck or dead pixel is the norm and very common in all TV's LCD's etc I have seen and repaired. The industry standard for display panels are 5 completely dead or 5 stuck pixels and if in combination of stuck and dead then its 3. Of course theres always exceptions to the rules in which a number of user never get problems with displays but all of these is attributed to mass production.

from what I read in your story, yours falls in the norm of pixel anomalies all displays are expected to have and produce.

if you wish to return the iMac i say do it but from what you saw a significant number of units had the same problem and if you go to other computer manufacturers you will see the same thing. Remember it is made by man so it will never be perfect.

[RedReplicant]

Be glad, I have a cluster of 30-40 dead pixels in a 3x3 inch area on my 27", I can't go without the computer so I am stuck.

[Amasashi]

30-40 in a 3 x 3 spot? Are you serious?! You definitely need to get that fixed! Someone must have dropped something on the LCD at the factory.

[newfoundglory]

The problem - as you have discovered - is that display defects do not always reveal themselves immediately.

Even if you get the display replaced you may not have a perfect screen. You may very well do, but you have to accept the fact that you may not.

I remember when I got my first gen iPhone from the US (i live in the UK), got home and discovered that within the first week it had a stuck pixel in a really annoying place. I couldn't try take it to the London apple store because the phone wasn't even out the UK at the time and i'd unlocked it from AT&T so i had to live with it anyway. I now have a 3GS which is (luckily) perfect.

I got my first MBP while in Hong Kong, which was fine in-store... got back to the hotel room and discovered a cluster of black, dead pixels. Took it back to the HK apple reseller who replaced it - all good. Anyway, I got back to London and discovered that the display had LED backlighting issues... it was darker in one part of the screen that the other but was only noticeable in certain conditions.

It was easily within tolerances, but the Genius who i saw offered to replace the screen anyway. (Risky for me, as the screen was dead-pixel free at that time). I remember seeing the invoice of what it would have cost if not covered by Apple, which was something like £480.

I think Apple try their best, but with things like screens its always a bit of a lottery. If apple manufactured the screens themselves i'm sure they'd be a lot better.

[Stealthipad]

Like the others said, you have no guarantee that there will not be stuck pixels that can sow up anytime.

Why do you feel cheated, Apply went WAY ABOVE what any other company would do to make you happy but now you expect to get them to bend the rules just for you!

You must be very naive to think that life could be as perfect as you wish it to be. The real world is much different. If one dead pixel ruins you entire computing experience then you are going to be hard to please.:o

[Rhalliwell1]

You have 1 year apple care, thats your warranty, you can extend it to 3 years. On that warranty apple does not cover a single defective pixel - would you?

The 14 day return policy is if you are dissatisfied with your product and obviously a single dead/stuck pixel is a reason to be dissatisfied.

The 14 day policy has been clear to you throughout so i don't think you can say apple has cheated you, i think it is just bad luck.

[Amasashi]

You have 1 year apple care, thats your warranty, you can extend it to 3 years. On that warranty apple does not cover a single defective pixel - would you?

The 14 day return policy is if you are dissatisfied with your product and obviously a single dead/stuck pixel is a reason to be dissatisfied.

The 14 day policy has been clear to you throughout so i don't think you can say apple has cheated you, i think it is just bad luck.

Would I cover a single defective pixel? Yes, I would, if I was selling a premium product, which Apple clearly is.

Here's how I think it should be:

14-day return policy. Anything wrong with the machine at all and you get a new one right on the spot.

For the duration of your warranty after 14 days, if a monitor has even one defective pixel, it should be sent back for repair.

That is how premium service for a premium product should be.

[Amasashi]

I forgot to say that the reason why I felt cheated was because I was under the impression that even a single defective pixel would be eligible for repair. No one told me this straight out, I just thought that was the standard of Apple's warranty.

The terms of the 14-day return policy was made clear to me, yes. I was merely dissatisfied with the fact that it was only 2 days after said policy expired that the pixel became stuck. Perfect timing :-P

[steve2112]

You have 1 year apple care, thats your warranty, you can extend it to 3 years. On that warranty apple does not cover a single defective pixel - would you?

The 14 day return policy is if you are dissatisfied with your product and obviously a single dead/stuck pixel is a reason to be dissatisfied.

The 14 day policy has been clear to you throughout so i don't think you can say apple has cheated you, i think it is just bad luck.

Dell's warranty on their Ultrasharp monitors covers a single dead or stuck pixel. They even cross ship you a new monitor before you have to send yours back. And it's good for 3 years.

[belltree]

You see, this is part of the reason why I will never buy an iMac (despite how sexy looking they are). I don't want my computer (data) tied to the monitor. If ever the monitor goes bad (and it appears to not too uncommon with the iMac), I don't want to have to send in my whole system. Forget that, the Mac Mini or Pro are the way to go. Just get your own monitor.

[fabian9]

Here's a long story short.

About two and a half weeks ago, I bought an iMac 27". The guy assured me that he would keep opening new machines for me until I got one that was perfect. First one we opened was good. No yellow-tinting, no flickering, no black spots, and no dead pixels. We ran PiXel Check 2 times just to make sure. He checked, I checked, we both double checked. Satisfied, I took my iMac home. He said that should any problems arise, I should bring the iMac back and he'll exchange a brand new one for me right on the spot. Within 14 days, of course.

After I got home, I ran PiXel Check a third time just to make sure. There were absolutely no pixel defects.

Now fast forward 16 days later. Yesterday, while editing a photo, I noticed what appeared to be a pixel defect. After making sure it wasn't anything outside of the screen, I ran PiXel Check again, and whoa and behold, there was a stuck red pixel in the upper right grid on the screen. Stuck pixels are worse than dead pixels, in my opinion, and though it was in the upper right grid of the screen, it was located on the bottom left corner of the grid, which means it's pretty damn close to the center of the screen, enough so that it's fairly noticeable (especially now that I know it's there) during routine computer use.

So I called the Apple Store, but unfortunately I was past the 14-day return policy, so they couldn't (or wouldn't) give me a new iMac. Instead, they said it would have to be sent back and repaired. No problem, I can wait. However, Apple's policy on pixel defects is that there has to be at least 3 (or 5, depending on who you talk to) pixel defects before they're willing to replace the screen, so unless more defective pixels start popping up, I'm going to have to live with this stuck red pixel that's practically in the center of the screen.

Now I understand that LCD monitors are not perfect and that there's the off-chance you'll get a pixel defect. It's just part of the manufacturing process. What I'm bitching about here is that Apple's warranty is too narrow in scope. Macs cost a premium price, and in return I expect premium service. To be fair, I've always had great customer service from Apple, and the people at the Apple Store are always very helpful and friendly. But Apple really needs to step up its policy regarding defective pixels. Some PC brands go as far as offering free repair for even one defective pixel in a span of 3 years. Because come on, the screen is like one of most important components of a computer. You're looking at the damn thing 100% of the time! To expect customers to make their peace with even one defective pixel is unreasonable considering how much a Mac costs.

And don't let anyone give you that crap about how 14 days is enough time because if there aren't any defective pixels at the time of purchase, there will never be any defective pixels, ever. Mine was perfect at the store before spawning a defective pixel 16 days later.

I still love Apple, and I still love Macs. But why can't Apple fix display issues as liberally as they do other hardware problems? This policy flat out sucks.

Lesson learnt for next time - run the rest on day 13, don't ever run it again after day 13 as you might notice something that won't be fixed and you probably wouldn't have noticed otherwise.

[Gregg2]

Would I cover a single defective pixel? Yes, I would, if I was selling a premium product, which Apple clearly is.
...
Do you also think that you would want your company to be profitable?

[IndustrialSpace]

Get used to it. Many of the iMacs have stuck or dead pixels. Be careful. Many are reported in refurbished models.

[Hellhammer]

Get used to it. Many of the iMacs have stuck or dead pixels. Be careful. Many are reported in refurbished models.

They are normal for all consumer LCDs, not just for iMac. IMO if they are not in the centre of the screen, get used to it, they annoy you for few days then you forget them.

[drewsof07]

Do you also think that you would want your company to be profitable?


Dell seems to be doing pretty well. And they cover single pixel defects in their Ultrasharp line. ;)

[Pachang]

The iMac forum game
1) Person criticizes XXXXX problem to do with the iMac display
2) Fanboy says XXXXX is common on all displays and they should stop complaining.
3) People who have bought displays before know that XXXXX is not actually very common and it is easy to make a display without XXXXX tell them to shutup.

[Hellhammer]

The iMac forum game
1) Person criticizes XXXXX problem to do with the iMac display
2) Fanboy says XXXXX is common on all displays and they should stop complaining.
3) People who have bought displays before know that XXXXX is not actually very common and it is easy to make a display without XXXXX tell them to shutup.

They are pretty common... Quality control is another thing and Apple's may not be the best but it's impossible to make displays which are all 100% perfect. Consumer products have ~5% failure rate which is acceptable. I've seen dozens of non-Apple monitors which have dead or stuck pixels, some even use the same panel as iMac so...

You all have to keep in mind that people come to MR to tell about their PROBLEMS so it's normal to see all those horror cases. Pixel issues are very minor and IMO acceptable, I have 2 dead ones and I barely even know where they are!

[cryer]

They are pretty common... Quality control is another thing and Apple's may not be the best but it's impossible to make displays which are all 100% perfect. Consumer products have ~5% failure rate which is acceptable. I've seen dozens of non-Apple monitors which have dead or stuck pixels, some even use the same panel as iMac so...

You all have to keep in mind that people come to MR to tell about their PROBLEMS so it's normal to see all those horror cases. Pixel issues are very minor and IMO acceptable, I have 2 dead ones and I barely even know where they are!

Let me ask, what if you were within your 14-day period with those 2 dead ones. Would you replace it the machine?

That's the situation I'm in now. There's two dead ones. One in the bottom left quadrant, and one in the bottom right quadrant. Just about center inside each of those two quadrants.

[Hellhammer]

Let me ask, what if you were within your 14-day period with those 2 dead ones. Would you replace it the machine?

That's the situation I'm in now. There's two dead ones. One in the bottom left quadrant, and one in the bottom right quadrant. Just about center inside each of those two quadrants.

I replaced it two times (first one had ONE stuck) and ended up getting worse and worse all the time. Live a week with it and then rethink about it, if they really annoy you, then return it. I got over it in two days, now I'm having hard time to find them :eek:

[cryer]

I replaced it two times (first one had ONE stuck) and ended up getting worse and worse all the time. Live a week with it and then rethink about it, if they really annoy you, then return it. I got over it in two days, now I'm having hard time to find them :eek:

To be honest, I can't see them if I don't look for them but it kind of bothers me that I just can't get a 100% working display/machine the first time when I've just gotten this computer recently and spent $2k for it. I've also got a fan running at 1109+ constantly (I'm told it should be below 1100) and a stomach grumbling noise from the hd. My question now is whether to replace or repair, with the fear that a replacement would be worse and a repair may not fix these issues? What would you do?

[Hellhammer]

To be honest, I can't see them if I don't look for them but it kind of bothers me that I just can't get a 100% working display/machine the first time when I've just gotten this computer recently and spent $2k for it. I've also got a fan running at 1109+ constantly (I'm told it should be below 1100) and a stomach grumbling noise from the hd. My question now is whether to replace or repair, with the fear that a replacement would be worse and a repair may not fix these issues? What would you do?

Grumbling HD will likely be fixed, just ask them to replace it with different drive. As for the display, it's up to you. Out of 3 686 400 pixels, it's not a surprise that one or two aren't working. Keep in mind that the replacement might have e.g. yellowing and even more defective pixels. I've lived with mine, I tried to get a perfect iMac, but I gave up and haven't regretted. I might ask a replacement LCD soon anyway due image persistence

[cryer]

Grumbling HD will likely be fixed, just ask them to replace it with different drive. As for the display, it's up to you. Out of 3 686 400 pixels, it's not a surprise that one or two aren't working. Keep in mind that the replacement might have e.g. yellowing and even more defective pixels. I've lived with mine, I tried to get a perfect iMac, but I gave up and haven't regretted. I might ask a replacement LCD soon anyway due image persistence

Well, if a replacement is worse (more yellow, more dead pixels), then I'd be in the same spot I am now, wouldn't I? I'd still need to do either a replacement or repair at that time.

If I do a repair, can they fix the dead pixels by replacing the screen panel or something?

[Hellhammer]

Well, if a replacement is worse (more yellow, more dead pixels), then I'd be in the same spot I am now, wouldn't I? I'd still need to do either a replacement or repair at that time.

If I do a repair, can they fix the dead pixels by replacing the screen panel or something?

You need a certain amount of dead pixels to get the LCD replaced under warranty, I think it was like 7 or in the center of the screen

[chrono1081]

Unfortunately, Apple doesn't make the display so they cant in itself check that all displays are 100% good. since apple has more control over its other components then you see that those problems are resolved better than the display ones like GPU's disck drives etc.

As a technician i can tell you from my experience that 1 stuck or dead pixel is the norm and very common in all TV's LCD's etc I have seen and repaired. The industry standard for display panels are 5 completely dead or 5 stuck pixels and if in combination of stuck and dead then its 3. Of course theres always exceptions to the rules in which a number of user never get problems with displays but all of these is attributed to mass production.

from what I read in your story, yours falls in the norm of pixel anomalies all displays are expected to have and produce.

if you wish to return the iMac i say do it but from what you saw a significant number of units had the same problem and if you go to other computer manufacturers you will see the same thing. Remember it is made by man so it will never be perfect.


+1

Sorry the "premium product" argument doesn't hold water. There are "premium" gaming PCs whos only warranty is to charge you $300 to guarantee no dead pixels otherwise its the standard 5 or more to get returned. Hypersonic used to do this and I know there are a few others.

Its electronics, it happens, it doesn't matter the brand. Chances are if its a stuck pixel it'll eventually unstick itself.

[Hellhammer]

+1

Sorry the "premium product" argument doesn't hold water. There are "premium" gaming PCs whos only warranty is to charge you $300 to guarantee no dead pixels otherwise its the standard 5 or more to get returned. Hypersonic used to do this and I know there are a few others.

Its electronics, it happens, it doesn't matter the brand. Chances are if its a stuck pixel it'll eventually unstick itself.

Most manufacturer and vendors, including Apple lets you return/replace it if it has defective pixels. They won't REPAIR it unless it has certain amount of defective pixels but getting a replacement within 14-day is different policy

[Gregintosh]

If they replaced every screen that had 1 dead pixel the 27" iMac wouldn't cost 1699 or 1999, it would more likely be 2599 and 2999.

Yeah it sucks. Try not to pay attention to it and it will disappear in your eyes over time. My 20 aluminum that I got years ago has 2 stuck pixels (ome of which is not far from the center of the screen), and they both appear teal. It annoyed and saddened me for a month after they came up (a few weeks after purchase) but now I don't notice them at all.

Now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever owned any LCD devices that DIDNT have at least one stuck or dead pixel.

[cryer]

Most manufacturer and vendors, including Apple lets you return/replace it if it has defective pixels. They won't REPAIR it unless it has certain amount of defective pixels but getting a replacement within 14-day is different policy

How about repair within your 14 day period? Will they allow you to repair less than 7 pixels if you're within 14 days?

[archipellago]

Like the others said, you have no guarantee that there will not be stuck pixels that can sow up anytime.

Why do you feel cheated, Apply went WAY ABOVE what any other company would do to make you happy but now you expect to get them to bend the rules just for you!

You must be very naive to think that life could be as perfect as you wish it to be. The real world is much different. If one dead pixel ruins you entire computing experience then you are going to be hard to please.:o

Sat here looking at 23" sub $120 display with no dead pixels.

Not hard to please.

Apple hardware is basically junk.

[JNB]

Sat here looking at 23" sub $120 display with no dead pixels.

Not hard to please.

Apple hardware is basically junk.

Well, I guess that closes all debate, then. :rolleyes:

[Hellhammer]

How about repair within your 14 day period? Will they allow you to repair less than 7 pixels if you're within 14 days?

Repair is done under warranty policy so it doesn't matter when it's done. Sure you can ask for repair instead of replacement but usually they just give you a new one.

Sat here looking at 23" sub $120 display with no dead pixels.

Not hard to please.

Apple hardware is basically junk.

So because your cheapish monitor doesn't have any it means that ALL other than Apple displays are fine? LOL! I've seen hundreds of defective pixels, they exist in ALL LCDs. And usually you don't bitch about 100$ if it has one or two but if you get 2000$ iMac it starts to matter...

[Stealthipad]

Sat here looking at 23" sub $120 display with no dead pixels

A screen with no dead pixels does not make it a great display. If you are JUST looking for all the pixels to be good then you can get by with a $120 screen, enjoy!

Not hard to please

I do not agree. Life and hard ware is not perfect. You must be VERY young and not been on the "spinning rock" very long.

Apple hardware is basically junk

Wait till you start looking for a wife!:p

[archipellago]

Well, I guess that closes all debate, then. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't say that, it is true though. ;):p

[archipellago]

Repair is done under warranty policy so it doesn't matter when it's done. Sure you can ask for repair instead of replacement but usually they just give you a new one.



So because your cheapish monitor doesn't have any it means that ALL other than Apple displays are fine? LOL! I've seen hundreds of defective pixels, they exist in ALL LCDs. And usually you don't bitch about 100$ if it has one or two but if you get 2000$ iMac it starts to matter...


the problem is that the Apple panel IS likely a cheap display just that they charge the earth for it.

I think if you pay any money for something like an LCD display it should ..ya know... be ok.

Excessive price isn't necessarily the issue.

[Hellhammer]

the problem is that the Apple panel IS likely a cheap display just that they charge the earth for it.

I think if you pay any money for something like an LCD display it should ..ya know... be ok.

Excessive price isn't necessarily the issue.

IPS panel a cheap one? Haha, you made my day! All sub 300$ displays carry TN panels which are pretty horrible in terms of color and viewing angles. A 27" IPS panel is likely $800ish, even 21.5" is ~400$

[archipellago]

Sat here looking at 23" sub $120 display with no dead pixels

A screen with no dead pixels does not make it a great display. If you are JUST looking for all the pixels to be good then you can get by with a $120 screen, enjoy!

Not hard to please

I do not agree. Life and hard ware is not perfect. You must be VERY young and not been on the "spinning rock" very long.

Apple hardware is basically junk

Wait till you start looking for a wife!:p


1/ Its a great screen...for me and probably 90% of all users. Apple's 'quality at a price' halo isn't even close to being true.

2/ 37 - i know its not perfect and that faults exist everywhere, that wasn't my point.

3/ Apple hardware is junk in my experience. Its the same as any generic PC board etc. In fact... in my experience, my xbox 360 is more reliable than Mac hardware and they ARE junk!!!

btw. my wife and 3 kids say hi! ;)

IPS panel a cheap one? Haha, you made my day! All sub 300$ displays carry TN panels which are pretty horrible in terms of color and viewing angles. A 27" IPS panel is likely $800ish, even 21.5" is ~400$

cheap compared to a 'good' IPS panel.

not cheap per se.

[Hellhammer]

cheap compared to a 'good' IPS panel.

not cheap per se.

Good IPS = +1500$

Apple displays are good. All LCDs have defective pixels and it's normal. Dell uses the same 27" panel as iMac and it's very popular among professionals and it indeed is a great display. Apple still uses "consumer" IPS panels, professionals would be +2000$ each.

[DontMacTheGyver]

The iMac forum game
1) Person criticizes XXXXX problem to do with the iMac display
2) Fanboy says XXXXX is common on all displays and they should stop complaining.
3) People who have bought displays before know that XXXXX is not actually very common and it is easy to make a display without XXXXX tell them to shutup.

Nice post :)

Dead or stuck pixels are a no-go! I could never ignore a single crippled pixel on my screen...

[steve2112]

IPS panel a cheap one? Haha, you made my day! All sub 300$ displays carry TN panels which are pretty horrible in terms of color and viewing angles. A 27" IPS panel is likely $800ish, even 21.5" is ~400$

My sub-$300 Dell 2209WA has an IPS panel, and it's pretty good. Granted, it's only 22", but it works for me. I haven't checked out the Dell version of the 27" IPS, but I'm sure it is around $800.

[Plutonius]

Would I cover a single defective pixel? Yes, I would, if I was selling a premium product, which Apple clearly is.

They would go out of business in 6 months :).

[steve2112]

They would go out of business in 6 months :).

Dell manages to do it and not go out of business. All of their professional line of monitors have a warranty that will replace the monitor if their is one defective pixel. And it's three years, not one. Check out the U2711 (http://accessories.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=ca&l=en&s=bsd&cs=cabsdt1&sku=224-8284), for example.

[Hellhammer]

My sub-$300 Dell 2209WA has an IPS panel, and it's pretty good. Granted, it's only 22", but it works for me. I haven't checked out the Dell version of the 27" IPS, but I'm sure it is around $800.

It's 1099$ http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/products/Displays/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=bsd&cs=04&sku=224-8284

That Dell you have is the cheapest with IPS AFAIK, not saying it's bad but most are +300$