'2010 Mac Pro: Speculation and whisperings, it's gonna be magical'

[fearoftigers]

When will the new Mac Pro be released and what will be under the hood?

This is the place to post wild speculation, flimsy rumours but of course hard evidence too!

Any Apple insiders out there? Any developers with any covert info? Does anyone read the Chinese or Vietnamese tech press (they're sometimes good for leaks)? Any retailers know anything or have you noticed unusually long shipping times in your country?

This is not the place for people who are saying the Apple doesn't make computers anymore or the Mac Pro update will be in 2011. I want to believe!

A couple of recent rumours to kick off:

WWDC : refonte des Mac Pro et nouveaux Xserve ?
La conférence des développeur Apple ce 7 juin serait aussi l'occasion de présenter de nouveaux Mac Pro. (http://www.macgeneration.com/news/voir/156241/wwdc-refonte-des-mac-pro-et-nouveaux-xserve)

Apple breaks the 2,000 jobs mark
Industry sources believe the bulk of the next 300 new roles will be in production of the Mac Pro (http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/apple-breaks-the-2000-jobs-mark-120074.html)

[Cindori]

you...missed the other 10 threads about this? :rolleyes:

[JesterJJZ]

you...missed the other 10 threads about this? :rolleyes:

Quiet you! I like these threads...

Carry on...

[fearoftigers]

I think some of the other threads have poor titles plus too many trolls.

Here we're free to speculate without fear of being flamed!

[VirtualRain]

I'm afraid it will be anything but "magical"

Here's what I expect:

Chassis: No change. None is required to accommodate the new CPU's.

CPU: A couple of new options that gives them 4/6/8/12 core offerings.

GPU: GTX 220/240 as a base offering with an ATI 5xxx and possibly a GTX 4xx as options.

Memory/Storage: No change

Display: A new ACD 27" display similar to that used in the iMac to be offered at the same time.

Pricing: Base model Quad starting at $2200-2300. Hex Core at $3000-$3500. 12 Core at $6K.

[sgunes]

I assume that the new MacPro will have 2 slots to put in the iPads.
As the iPads run on pure magic, the dual-socket MacPro would be twice as magic.
It will come with a finger longer so you can use the touch screen by pointing through the case opening.

[Pressure]

you...missed the other 10 threads about this? :rolleyes:

Can only agree.

A moderator should merge all these threads into one big pile.

Perhaps we should have a subforum called NOGAF (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=N.O.G.A.F)...

Although I find speculation fun and interesting I still wish people could contain it to one thread, especially when one can easily find 8 threads with similar topics on the first page of the Mac Pro subforum.

[fearoftigers]

Can only agree.

A moderator should merge all these threads into one big pile.

Perhaps we should have a subforum called NOGAF (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=N.O.G.A.F)...

Although I find speculation fun and interesting I still wish people could contain it to one thread, especially when one can easily find 8 threads with similar topics on the first page of the Mac Pro subforum.

Well information moves quickly, what's the point of having to trawl through all those threads? I think this method works for some topics, but this is a little more dynamic. Anyhow this isn't the point.

I for one think the Mac Pro update is imminent as the lower end models are terrible value compared to the 27" imacs. What else would they announce at WWDC apart from new iPhone?

[Umbongo]

Well information moves quickly, what's the point of having to trawl through all those threads? I think this method works for some topics, but this is a little more dynamic. Anyhow this isn't the point.

I for one think the Mac Pro update is imminent as the lower end models are terrible value compared to the 27" imacs. What else would they announce at WWDC apart from new iPhone?

People said similar things back in 2008, and Apple released the Mac pros the week before and didn't mention them. That keynote time is precious, so unless they are going to be price competitive and better featured I doubt they will be announced at the WWDC keynote.

On the subject of the thread, the problem with multiple threads is having to psot the same information over and over. Not that this one is a bad idea, just a little late to the party (I hope).

[jjahshik32]

Usb 3.0?!

[Aldaris]

Spurred crone the 'New MP's May 18th' thread. But more specific on what we want and what we can expect.

New Mac Pro Rumors have put a date on early 2010, again in February, March and April. Many other sites and linked here have said 'imminent release'... Well here we are practically June. So let's at least have some fun while we wait and see what we can scrounge up.

Those of you who wish not to participate, or view this as an un-needed thread are invited to head themselves to a different thread. Those anxiously awaiting or dreaming about the next generation/revision Mac Pro, we invite you to post and keep coming back as the intel gets better.

And as for magical, let's take bets to see how many times Steve uses it during his WWDC keynote (just for fun).

My official call is 7.

[Icaras]

My official call is 7.

Did you also notice that the unread mail number on the ipad at Apple's front page is the number 7 as well?

This is most definitely an omen. And all this time, it was right under our noses...

[ValSalva]

USB 3.0 and SATA 6 would be nice surprises but I doubt either of them will make an appearance. It will most likely be a processor bump and some more options in video cards. It doesn't have to be magic; what computer really is? It just has to be a better value for the money.

I wouldn't touch any 27" ACD with a ten foot pole though. I think they have a dud. Check out all the unhappy iMac buyers.

[Icaras]

I wouldn't touch any 27" ACD with a ten foot pole though. I think they have a dud. Check out all the unhappy iMac buyers.

It's not like they're going to abandon a product line just because of one defect. I surely don't see the 27" iMac ending with this revision. Its only natural to assume that a company like Apple will most likely work to correct the issue (which it has already taken adequate steps to do), get back on it's feet, and continue business as usual.

Perhaps partially the reason why Apple took this long to come out with the 27" ACD was to first iron out the kinks in the initial iMac run.

Anyway, we'll see.

[telequest]

Gimma a hexacore 3.33Ghz with 6 or more RAM slots for a price about midway between the current quad and octo and I'll be happy. And a reasonable video card. I'll load it up with RAM and HD from 3rd parties, along with any connectivity I need beyond what's stock. Just do it soon. And I'll take 2 please.

[J the Ninja]

And as for magical, let's take bets to see how many times Steve uses it during his WWDC keynote (just for fun).

My official call is 7.

Drinking game! Any time a speaker says "magic" or "magical" during the keynote, you have to do a shot!

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

I'm afraid it will be anything but "magical"

Here's what I expect:

Chassis: No change. None is required to accommodate the new CPU's.

CPU: A couple of new options that gives them 4/6/8/12 core offerings.



Yes, Gulftown Hexacores are a slam-dunk 1-1 replacement. There was a rumor that Intel is having trouble shipping in quantity-- OTOH, people are seeing Windows servers now use them. Is Intel ready to ship now? Good question.


GPU: GTX 220/240 as a base offering with an ATI 5xxx and possibly a GTX 4xx as options.



The GPU situation is very interesting. Nvidia Fermi GPUs (GTX 465/470/480) are out now, and reasonably priced, but, very hot (200/215/250W). The Radeon 5800's are not as hot, but still, pretty hot (151-188W). Which one has better 64-bit floating point, for the OpenCL part of things? Which one has better, less buggy 64-bit driver support? Which one has supports maximum DisplayPort bandwidth, for the new generation of high-performance monitors coming out? Which GPU looks nicer?

[Wild-Bill]

The GPU situation is very interesting. Nvidia Fermi GPUs (GTX 465/470/480) are out now, and reasonably priced, but, very hot (200/215/250W). The Radeon 5800's are not as hot, but still, pretty hot (151-188W). Which one has better 64-bit floating point, for the OpenCL part of things? Which one has better, less buggy 64-bit driver support? Which one has supports maximum DisplayPort bandwidth, for the new generation of high-performance monitors coming out? Which GPU looks nicer?

ATI 5800xt all the way. Better performance per watt, cooler than the nVidia cards, ATI cards historically perform better in OpenGL, ATI released a six mini-displayport card just recently. I've submitted feedback to Apple several times asking for this card. But you know by the time the Mac Pro eventually gets released, there will probably be a new and better card out.

Everyone should visit this link and ask them to release the new Mac Pros ASAP, and with the Radeon 5800xt.

http://www.apple.com/feedback/macpro.html

[Pressure]

Yes, Gulftown Hexacores are a slam-dunk 1-1 replacement.

Except there is only a single Xeon based on Gulftown (Xeon 3600 series for UP). 6-core Xeon 5600 series are based on Westmere EP.

Xeon 5600 series (Westmere EP).

6-core:
X5680 (3.33 Ghz) $1,663
X5670 (2.93 Ghz) $1,440
X5660 (2.80 Ghz) $1,219
X5650 (2.66 Ghz) $996
E5645 (2.40 Ghz) $958
L6540 (2.26 Ghz) $996
L5638 (2.00 Ghz) $958

4-core:
X5677 (3.46 Ghz) $,1663
X5667 (3.06 Ghz) $1,440
E5640 (2.66 Ghz) $774
E5630 (2.53 Ghz) $551
E5620 (2.40 Ghz) $387
L5630 (2.13 Ghz) $551
L5618 (1.86 Ghz) $530
L5609 (1.86 Ghz) $440


Xeon 3600 series (Gulftown).

6-core:
W3680 (3.33 Ghz) $999

This happens to be the only Xeon UP available based on Gulftown.

Mac Pro models (purely speculation).

The single processor Mac Pro will probably still use Xeon 3500 series processors for the entry model, or this will happen...

Single processor (UP):
Mac Pro 2009 W3520 (2.66 GHz) $284
Mac Pro 2010 W3680 (3.33 Ghz) $999 (+$715 difference)

Mac Pro 2009 W3540 (2.93 Ghz) $562
Mac Pro 2010 W3680 (3.33 Ghz) $999 (+$437 difference)

Mac Pro 2009 W3580 (3.33 Ghz) $999
Mac Pro 2010 W3680 (3.33 Ghz) $999

Or we finally get the fabled xMac! A single processor tower smaller than the current Mac Pro, also cheaper ;)
Yeah, went there... Apple might be "forced" to use Core i5 and Core i7 (or Xeon 5600 series) products for the entry level Mac "Pro".

Dual processor (DP):

Either they get a slight decrease or increase in processor speed and various numbers of cores.

Mac Pro 2009 E5520 (4-cores, 2.26 Ghz) $373 x 2 = $746
Mac Pro 2010 E5620 (4-cores, 2.40 Ghz) $387 x 2 = $774 (+$28 difference)

Mac Pro 2009 X5550 (4-cores, 2.66 Ghz) $858 x 2 = $1,716
Mac Pro 2010 X5650 (6-cores, 2.66 Ghz) $996 x 2 = $1,992 (+$276 difference)
or
Mac Pro 2010 E5645 (6-cores, 2.40 Ghz) $958 x 2 = $1,916 (+$200 difference)

Mac Pro 2009 X5570 (4-cores, 2.93 Ghz) $1,286 x 2 = $2,572
Mac Pro 2010 X5670 (6-cores, 2.93 Ghz) $1,440 x 2 = $2,880 (+$308 difference)
or
Mac Pro 2010 X5660 (6-cores, 2.80 Ghz) $1,219 x 2 = $2,438 (-$134 difference)
or
Mac Pro 2010 X5667 (4-cores, 3.06 Ghz) $1,440 x 2 = $2,880 (+$308 difference)

But Apple might want to stick to the 6-core Xeon 5600 series for the BTO options and RAM and other hardware prices might have gotten cheaper to retain the current prices.

[MythicFrost]

Mac Pro (single processor)

Processor options: (six-core) 2.66GHz, 2.93GHz, 3.33GHz
Graphics options: (high end) NVidia GeForce GTX 4xx / (maybe) ATI Radeon HD 5870/90.
RAM options: Up to 48GB 1066MHz (or 1333MHz) ECC

Mac Pro (dual processor)

Processor options: (six-core) 2.4GHz, 2.66GHz, 2.93GHz
Graphics options: (high end) NVidia GeForce GTX 4xx / (maybe) ATI Radeon HD 5870/90.
RAM options: Up to 96GB 1066MHz (or 1333MHz) ECC

Since there are four RAM module slots with a quad core processor, I'm assuming there will be six with a hexacore processor, if this is not the case then it'll probably be 32/64GB (8GB modules). I'm also hoping to see six internal drive bays, I'm also guessing they will update the existing raid card to a much better one.

[Pressure]

Mac Pro (single processor)

Processor options: (six-core) 2.66GHz, 2.93GHz, 3.33GHz
Graphics options: (high end) NVidia GeForce GTX 4xx / (maybe) ATI Radeon HD 5870/90.
RAM options: Up to 48GB 1066MHz (or 1333MHz) ECC



Not going to happen if they want to keep the current price level.

The ONLY 6-core Xeon UP available is the W3680 (3.33 Ghz) at $999.


Mac Pro (dual processor)

Processor options: (six-core) 2.4GHz, 2.66GHz, 2.93GHz
Graphics options: (high end) NVidia GeForce GTX 4xx / (maybe) ATI Radeon HD 5870/90.
RAM options: Up to 96GB 1066MHz (or 1333MHz) ECC



Also not going to happen.

Current base model uses the E5520 priced at $373.
E5520 (4-cores, 2.26 Ghz) $373 x 2 = $746
E5645 (6-cores, 2.40 Ghz) $958 x 2 = $1,916 (+$1,170 difference!)

[wilsonlaidlaw]

Apple might decide to future proof an new MacPro with an Intel Speedy Optical Output. I know there are no accessible devices at present but someone has to start the ball rolling. It has been the same for all interfaces (USB, Firewire, eSata etc). This speed of output might be needed for the next generation of 3D large format monitors.

Wilson

[ValSalva]

It's not like they're going to abandon a product line just because of one defect. I surely don't see the 27" iMac ending with this revision. Its only natural to assume that a company like Apple will most likely work to correct the issue (which it has already taken adequate steps to do), get back on it's feet, and continue business as usual.

Perhaps partially the reason why Apple took this long to come out with the 27" ACD was to first iron out the kinks in the initial iMac run.

Anyway, we'll see.

Exactly, we will see. I hope the 27" ACD is as flawless as any Apple product should be. I'm sure Apple is doing all it can to remedy this bad situation but Apple doesn't manufacture the displays so it may be out of their hands. Maybe the wait is due to Apple finding another supplier for the display. Or waiting for a true new revision.

I guess the other reason I'd buy the Dell U2711 with a new Mac Pro is the matte screen. I think an ACD will be glossy. 27" is just too big for a glossy display for me. A 15" display on a MBP I can work with but the iMac I briefly had (before returning it because of the strong yellow tint) was very hard on the eyes.

[MythicFrost]

Not going to happen if they want to keep the current price level.

The ONLY 6-core Xeon UP available is the W3680 (3.33 Ghz) at $999.
What does the UP stand for? I'm hoping they will use X56xx series not the 36xx series of processors in the single processor Mac Pro's.
Also not going to happen.

Current base model uses the E5520 priced at $373.
E5520 (4-cores, 2.26 Ghz) $373 x 2 = $746
E5645 (6-cores, 2.40 Ghz) $958 x 2 = $1,916 (+$1,170 difference!)
Oh I meant to say the 2.26GHz six core, not the 2.4GHz. Which, based on your chart below is almost the exact same price.
I think everyone is expecting or hoping that the current Mac Pro's will maintain a similar price, I don't, I think the single processor base model will be at least $500 more and the dual processor base model at least $1500 more.

[Pressure]

What does the UP stand for? I'm hoping they will use X56xx series not the 36xx series of processors in the single processor Mac Pro's.

UP stands for Uni Processor. It's a designation for a system that only have support for 1 physical processor.

But like the Mac Pro (early 2008) model they may simply both use the same processors and motherboard with two sockets.


Oh I meant to say the 2.26GHz six core, not the 2.4GHz. Which, based on your chart below is almost the exact same price.
I think everyone is expecting or hoping that the current Mac Pro's will maintain a similar price, I don't, I think the single processor base model will be at least $500 more and the dual processor base model at least $1500 more.

The 6-core L6540 (2.26 Ghz) is even more expensive at $996 ;)

E5520 (4-cores, 2.26 Ghz) $373 x 2 = $746
E5645 (6-cores, 2.40 Ghz) $996 x 2 = $1,992 (+$1,246 difference!)

The thing is, the cheapest 6-core Westmere EP is the E5645 (2.40 Ghz) $958 and you need two of them.

[-SD-]

Perhaps partially the reason why Apple took this long to come out with the 27" ACD was to first iron out the kinks in the initial iMac run.

Anyway, we'll see.

That's what I've been thinking too. The 27" iMac really is an incredible looking machine, I've been wanting a 27" ACD ever since.

:apple:

[MythicFrost]

The 6-core L6540 (2.26 Ghz) is even more expensive at $996

E5520 (4-cores, 2.26 Ghz) $373 x 2 = $746
E5645 (6-cores, 2.40 Ghz) $996 x 2 = $1,992 (+$1,246 difference!)

The thing is, the cheapest 6-core Westmere EP is the E5645 (2.40 Ghz) $958 and you need two of them.
The E5520 @ 2.26GHz costs $373 now (so I assume), but what did it cost when the Mac Pro was first released?

If it was $700 when the current generation Mac Pro was first released, then your example would look more like this:
E5520 (4-cores, 2.26 Ghz) $700 x 2 = $1400
E5645 (6-cores, 2.40 Ghz) $996 x 2 = $1,992 (+$592 difference!)

I'm not sure if it was more expensive earlier on, but I assume so (correct me if I'm wrong).

[fearoftigers]

Does anyone know what the performance of the i7 iMac is vs the current quad 3.3 GHz Mac Pro.?

Can't seem to find a good Geek Bench comparisson anywhere.

[Umbongo]

The E5520 @ 2.26GHz costs $373 now (so I assume), but what did it cost when the Mac Pro was first released?

If it was $700 when the current generation Mac Pro was first released, then your example would look more like this:
E5520 (4-cores, 2.26 Ghz) $700 x 2 = $1400
E5645 (6-cores, 2.40 Ghz) $996 x 2 = $1,992 (+$592 difference!)

I'm not sure if it was more expensive earlier on, but I assume so (correct me if I'm wrong).

Xeon pricing doesn't tend to change during the life of the product. Only the Xeon 5300 series has received a price drop in the last 5 years that I remember. So yes they were $373 when they were announced. Also there would be no reason to use the E5645, when the X5650 is the same price.

[Umbongo]

Does anyone know what the performance of the i7 iMac is vs the current quad 3.3 GHz Mac Pro.?

Can't seem to find a good Geek Bench comparisson anywhere.


This link should give you an idea (975 vs 860):

http://www.guru3d.com/article/core-i5-750-core-i7-860-870-processor-review-test/12

[Murray M]

Long history:

1) Apple waiting longer than we like to announce an update.
2) Speculation increasing disproportionately to what's possible.
3) Disappointment when Apple offers half of what was speculated.

My best guess:

1) New case (as a trick to inspire a purchase, which will work)
2) All statistics bumped 10-20% (but really: 10%)
3) Possibly some new internal or external technology (that we don't really need, but we'll all use it to justify buying it).

Final thought:

I'm totally wrong, the 2010 low end $2200 MP will be 50% faster than the 2009 8 core. And it will have a new HD distribution platform that's better than Blue Ray. And it will have all new MP-specific "Pro" icons. That's right: no more corny "Applications" folder with the dorky pencil/paintbrush/pen thing that makes me think of a child's toy and want to vomit. I'd pay an extra $500 for the updated icons alone.

[J the Ninja]

Long history:

1) Apple waiting longer than we like to announce an update.
2) Speculation increasing disproportionately to what's possible.
3) Disappointment when Apple offers half of what was speculated.

My best guess:

1) New case (as a trick to inspire a purchase, which will work)
2) All statistics bumped 10-20% (but really: 10%)
3) Possibly some new internal or external technology (that we don't really need, but we'll all use it to justify buying it).

Final thought:

I'm totally wrong, the 2010 low end $2200 MP will be 50% faster than the 2009 8 core. And it will have a new HD distribution platform that's better than Blue Ray. And it will have all new MP-specific "Pro" icons. That's right: no more corny "Applications" folder with the dorky pencil/paintbrush/pen thing that makes me think of a child's toy and want to vomit. I'd pay an extra $500 for the updated icons alone.

You know you can change the icons, right?

[Murray M]

You know you can change the icons, right?

I've been scared to mess with the app folder. Tell me more.

[strausd]

I don't agree with all these people saying that the 12 core will cost 6k to start and go up for higher clock speeds. The price of the hexacores right now are the same price as the quadcores when they were put in the mac pro. And since Apple has not lowered the price of the MP even though the price of the processors have gone down, they will be able to keep the prices the same if they swap a quad for a hexa and dual quads for dual hexas.

[craigcomposer]

On the Canadian apple store website, after months and months of the shipping time saying "within 24 hours" is has slipped to 1-2 days!

Hold on to your hats people, I think we're finally getting close.

[costabunny]

Drinking game! Any time a speaker says "magic" or "magical" during the keynote, you have to do a shot!

I'd better get some shandy ready then or I'll be pished before the 'one more thing'... :(

As for the Mac Pro - I am hoping for some updates as I really do want to upgrade my 10yr old mac (and I miss the MP - had one, sold it to start my business, now in nostalga mode with the old G4, ready for some newness).

I agree that the iMac 27 is very good value compared to the current quad MP - thats making my choice really had (I could do with the cheaper mem pgrades and internal HDD's, but then a FW800 set isnt too much and would mean I get a new screen).....

Lets cross fingers for an update with hexacore at the same (or lower) entry level price...... - that could swing it for me.

Be nice to see USB3 and SATA6Gbps as well and maybe even the 5xxx series (would be nice for future).

Otherwise I'll most likely be sticking to my plan of a 27" iMac in the next few months.

[Aldaris]

On the Canadian apple store website, after months and months of the shipping time saying "within 24 hours" is has slipped to 1-2 days!

Hold on to your hats people, I think we're finally getting close.

Sure enough!

Last night when I was playing around in the US it slipped for an hour or so, then went back to 24 hours... I thought it was just cause I had clicked an upgraded and then went back to stock model and it didn't register. Tried it later and it was fine... We can only hope!:)

[Aldaris]

I'd better get some shandy ready then or I'll be pished before the 'one more thing'... :(



In years past we would have a WWDC/Macworld bingo going. I'd like to add to the suggested drinking game (whatever your poison).

Every time Magic/ly/cal is uttered that's a shot/swig.
Appearance of any individual directly involved in prototype mess finish your drink, and start another.

Anyone else care to add?

[xgman]

Somebody out there must know something about this. Why is this the only recently anticipated Apple product that has absolutely no leaks, no hints, nada! Come on, someone that has some real info on what is happening with this upgrade, please drop us a crumb or two!!!

[J the Ninja]

If it makes anyone feel better, some analyst guy says there will be MPs at WWDC:

http://www.9to5mac.com/shaw-wu-macbook-air-itunes-mac-pro-345864

[fearoftigers]

If it makes anyone feel better, some analyst guy says there will be MPs at WWDC:

http://www.9to5mac.com/shaw-wu-macbook-air-itunes-mac-pro-345864

Mmm Mac Rumors have a page on him: http://guides.macrumors.com/Shaw_Wu_(Analyst)

Doesn't look like he was too accurate in the past. Maybe now he's decided to step things up a bit?

[the editor]

guys one question:

are we likely going to get less cores for more money regarding the soon the come updated MP?

at this moment the price for a, 8-core system (# Two 2.26GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeons) is around 3000Euro's

am i correct to think that this time they will skip the 8-core and make us choose between 4,6 or 12.

If this is the case do you think we are going to get a 12 core system at the price an 8 core is now.

for example say i have an 8-core system at the moment and if i only got like 3000Euro's (more or less) does this mean that i actually will be downgrading if i want to buy an updated MP?

[the editor]

On the Canadian apple store website, after months and months of the shipping time saying "within 24 hours" is has slipped to 1-2 days!

Hold on to your hats people, I think we're finally getting close.

On the dutch site its been 1-2 days for almost 2 weeks now, it used to be 24hours before. I don't think this means anything but Apple having some shiping trouble probably due to the Ipad.

[xgman]

If it makes anyone feel better, some analyst guy says there will be MPs at WWDC:

http://www.9to5mac.com/shaw-wu-macbook-air-itunes-mac-pro-345864

This is unfortunately nothing more than wishful speculating on his part.

[xgman]

If this is the case do you think we are going to get a 12 core system at the price an 8 core is now.


Not even close.

[chmilar]

I can't wait for the 2010 MacPro to be finally released, if only so these threads will stop.

[VirtualRain]

I can't wait for the 2010 MacPro to be finally released, if only so these threads will stop.

LOL... but then there will be countless threads started like:

"Is the 2010 Mac Pro worth it?"
"2010 Mac Pro overpriced"
"2010 Mac Pro vs. 2009 Refurb"
"Should I get 4, 6, 8, or 12 cores?"
"Is Apple still committed to the Pro Market"
"When is the next Mac Pro refresh"

:D

[darkplanets]

LOL... but then there will be countless threads started like:

"Is the 2010 Mac Pro worth it?"
"2010 Mac Pro overpriced"
"2010 Mac Pro vs. 2009 Refurb"
"Should I get 4, 6, 8, or 12 cores?"
"Is Apple still committed to the Pro Market"
"When is the next Mac Pro refresh"

:D

You sir get the hammer award, because you just hit the nail on the head.

[Icaras]

If it makes anyone feel better, some analyst guy says there will be MPs at WWDC:

http://www.9to5mac.com/shaw-wu-macbook-air-itunes-mac-pro-345864

Yea, but Shaw Wu sucks.

[the editor]

Not even close.


ok, so...do we get less processor power than 6 cores for the price of an 8-core machine today?

[nanofrog]

ok, so...do we get less processor power than 6 cores for the price of an 8-core machine today?
Looking at the parts produced by Intel, there's only one SP hex part (W3680), and only a few DP hex core parts. The rest of the DP line are Quad core (Octad systems).

Theoretically, Apple could offer every single processor as a hex core, but the pricing would be too high IMO, so there's likely to only be a high-end DP system that's a Dodeca core system (and it's going to be pricey). The rest will be Quads (SP systems) and Octads (DP systems) to keep in the existing price ranges.

The nice thing is, we should see some increases in clock speeds assuming they aren't all using hex core parts. :)

See below (I know there's no pricing on this one, but you can find them if you search). ;)

[strausd]

Not even close.

I disagree. The price of the quads when they were put in the 09 MP is the same as the hexas that will go into the 2010 MP. And since Apple hasn't lowered the price on the quads even tho the CPU prices have gone down, there is a good chance that they will stay the same.

[iMacprobook]

You know, if the update is a slight speed bump, then i may as well order a 09 2.93/4/4870/2x1tb+80gbssd, as the price will most likely jump too, as in the MBP refresh.. My work wont be affected by 2 more cores, so i don't see the point in believing that a new machine will be worth the extra cost. Apple don't really do better value, do they?

[Umbongo]

ok, so...do we get less processor power than 6 cores for the price of an 8-core machine today?

If Apple keep the line similar to how it is now, but just provide updates in technology, like they did with the 2008 models compared to the 2006, then you could expect the following:

4x 2.80GHz - $2,499
4x 3.20GHz - $2,899
6x 3.33GHz - $3,699

8x 2.40GHz - $3,299
12x2.66GHz - $4,699
12x2.93GHz - $5,899

As the Euro vs. the Dollar is the same as it was back then you could expect prices to be the same in Europe too. So yes you should be able to get a 2 core for the same price as an 8 core, but only the upgraded ones.

[nanofrog]

If Apple keep the line similar to how it is now, but just provide updates in technology, like they did with the 2008 models compared to the 2006, then you could expect the following:

4x 2.80GHz - $2,499
4x 3.20GHz - $2,899
6x 3.33GHz - $3,699

8x 2.40GHz - $3,299
12x2.66GHz - $4,699
12x2.93GHz - $5,899

As the Euro vs. the Dollar is the same as it was back then you could expect prices to be the same in Europe too. So yes you should be able to get a 2 core for the same price as an 8 core, but only the upgraded ones.
I'm hoping this will be the case. It could at least add some value back to the line. ;)

[Icaras]

I'm hoping this will be the case. It could at least add some value back to the line. ;)

Yea, it's looking good I must say. Everytime you guys start tossing around pricing, the anticipation in these threads seem to increase too. Tuesday couldn't come any sooner! Whatever Tuesday that may be of course.

[Aldaris]

LOL... but then there will be countless threads started like:

"Is the 2010 Mac Pro worth it?"
"2010 Mac Pro overpriced"
"2010 Mac Pro vs. 2009 Refurb"
"Should I get 4, 6, 8, or 12 cores?"
"Is Apple still committed to the Pro Market"
"When is the next Mac Pro refresh"

:D

VirtuaRain,

I love you man, you're the best!
Thanks for that post for all the "oh great another thread" folk.

[the editor]

If Apple keep the line similar to how it is now, but just provide updates in technology, like they did with the 2008 models compared to the 2006, then you could expect the following:

4x 2.80GHz - $2,499
4x 3.20GHz - $2,899
6x 3.33GHz - $3,699

8x 2.40GHz - $3,299
12x2.66GHz - $4,699
12x2.93GHz - $5,899

As the Euro vs. the Dollar is the same as it was back then you could expect prices to be the same in Europe too. So yes you should be able to get a 2 core for the same price as an 8 core, but only the upgraded ones.

If this would be the case, what would actually be the best system to pick out of these two:

6x 3.33GHz - $3,699 or 8x 2.40GHz - $3,299

[VirtualRain]

VirtuaRain,

I love you man, you're the best!
Thanks for that post for all the "oh great another thread" folk.

LOL! Thanks! NP! :D

BTW, it's already started... :p

If this would be the case, what would actually be the best system to pick out of these two:

6x 3.33GHz - $3,699 or 8x 2.40GHz - $3,299

[Umbongo]

If this would be the case, what would actually be the best system to pick out of these two:

6x 3.33GHz - $3,699 or 8x 2.40GHz - $3,299

The 6x 3.33GHz is going to be a better choice for most people if that is the case.

[rundevilrun]

My magical speculations:

Quad core
2.8 - $2299
3.33 - $3499

6 core
2.66 - $2999
2.93 - $3199

8 core
2.53 - $3399
3.06 - $4699

12 core
2.66 - $4499
2.93 - $5299

[VirtualRain]

As other's have pointed out, there is only one SP 6-core part and it's clocked at 3.33GHz. I'm guessing it's price will be around $3500 but it could be a few hundred either side of that.

I also see Apple charging a steep premium on the 12 cores - reserving them for the money is no object crowd.

I could see pricing like this... (very similar to Umbongo)

$2400 > Entry Quad
$2900 > High-end Quad
$3300 > Entry Octo
$3500 > High-end Hex
$4500 > Mid Octo
$5500 > High-end Octo
$6000 > Dodeca

[slughead]

Industry sources believe the bulk of the next 300 new roles will be in production of the Mac Pro (http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/apple-breaks-the-2000-jobs-mark-120074.html)


That was 2 weeks ago. That means they just started. I bet no new mac pros until after the summer.

[MythicFrost]

Xeon pricing doesn't tend to change during the life of the product. Only the Xeon 5300 series has received a price drop in the last 5 years that I remember. So yes they were $373 when they were announced. Also there would be no reason to use the E5645, when the X5650 is the same price.
Then I expect Mac Pro pricing to jump quite a bit!

[harlem]

hey everyone im new here, and actually still a PC user at the moment but have been saving up to buy my first Mac Pro (at the Academy of Art i worked with mac for 4 years so i'm familiar with MAc). I'm hoping you guys could maybe help me answer my question:

Since i was planning on buying the MP in March, Ive been confronted with the dilemma of waiting for the updated version or just go for the current entry level 8-core configuration. I'm really not that familiar with hardware specs..etc but i understand that the current config is a bit overpriced so It seemed like the smartest thing to do was just wait for the update.

The plan is to use the MP for Graphic purposes (illustrator, photoshop, indesign, and digital painting/drawing) In the future i'm also planning on doing some video editing (purely out of interest, not at a prof. level, and it would be cool if i could edit my music (synthesizers, drumcomputer) with the Mac Pro

Now the question is what would be the best and most bang for my buck, ofcourse its still a bit of guessing on how the setups of the new machines will look like but going from what "VirtualRain" guessed

$2400 > Entry Quad
$2900 > High-end Quad
$3300 > Entry Octo
$3500 > High-end Hex
$4500 > Mid Octo
$5500 > High-end Octo
$6000 > Dodeca

And since i was planning on buying the 8-core anyway...should i just go for the updated 8-core or is the High-end-hex 6 core actually going to be better performance/faster?. could you maybe try and explain as simple as possible why to choose one over the other:o

Budget is going to be around 3500$

Sorry for the long question but since its going to be my first Mac and took me ages to save up for this I'd hate to make decisions i might regret later.

thnx anyone for their time

[nanofrog]

hey everyone im new here, and actually still a PC user at the moment but have been saving up to buy my first Mac Pro (at the Academy of Art i worked with mac for 4 years so i'm familiar with MAc). I'm hoping you guys could maybe help me answer my question:

Since i was planning on buying the MP in March, Ive been confronted with the dilemma of waiting for the updated version or just go for the current entry level 8-core configuration. I'm really not that familiar with hardware specs..etc but i understand that the current config is a bit overpriced so It seemed like the smartest thing to do was just wait for the update.

The plan is to use the MP for Graphic purposes (illustrator, photoshop, indesign, and digital painting/drawing) In the future i'm also planning on doing some video editing (purely out of interest, not at a prof. level, and it would be cool if i could edit my music (synthesizers, drumcomputer) with the Mac Pro

Now the question is what would be the best and most bang for my buck, ofcourse its still a bit of guessing on how the setups of the new machines will look like but going from what "VirtualRain" guessed

$2400 > Entry Quad
$2900 > High-end Quad
$3300 > Entry Octo
$3500 > High-end Hex
$4500 > Mid Octo
$5500 > High-end Octo
$6000 > Dodeca

And since i was planning on buying the 8-core anyway...should i just go for the updated 8-core or is the High-end-hex 6 core actually going to be better performance/faster?. could you maybe try and explain as simple as possible why to choose one over the other:o

Budget is going to be around 3500$

Sorry for the long question but since its going to be my first Mac and took me ages to save up for this I'd hate to make decisions i might regret later.

thnx anyone for their time
Given the software usage listed, you'd be better off with either a Quad or Hex (SP) system (with as high a clock that can be had once upgrades have been taken into account).

Use adequate upgrades to address system bottlenecks, such as sufficient RAM, graphics card, and disk throughput. Get these upgrades 3rd party.

So unless that 3500 is system only (upgrade funds not included in your figure), work backwards (figure out the upgrade path, and subtract it from the actual budget figure, then that amount is your system price limit).

Unfortunately, that's not so easy right now, as we don't know what the newer graphics cards will actually cost just yet (nothing publicly released). But you can price out RAM and HDD's.

[Tonytownsend]

I hope it has a top mount toaster with a side mount Orange soda dispensor. Naked lady mud flaps, racing strips, dual exhaust, A CB radio, A micromave, Mini refridge, A trend mill, a Rotary Telephone am I forgeting anything?

[JesterJJZ]

I'd be happy with ANYTHING more than just a spec bump.

[deconstruct60]

The 6x 3.33GHz is going to be a better choice for most people if that is the case.

For a budget of $3,699 in most cases :

$3,299 + $400 of speedy disk > $3,699 with a single disk

where speedy disk is one of :

i. 80GB (or around that size ) SSD for OS/App + another disk for RAID workspace + more RAM for caching.


ii. greater than 3 drive RAID set up + more RAM

iii. 128 GB SSD


Unless not working on larger files , a large fraction of the increased CPU cycles will be spent on no-ops for normal, mainstream workloads unless alievate the I/O bottleneck. Could also back off to midrange QUAD and throw even more money at I/O if really don't think can use additional cores.

If have 'extra' , idle cores you can throw workload (e.g., software RAID , backup, etc ) at the extra ones with minor impact on getting your main work done.


Buying more than just megahertz. For one, the $3,299 system will likely come with twice as much memory (and twice the max memory bandwidth and if workload balanced right twice as much L3 cache ) as the $3,699 one. That is typically a difference maker when doing real work as oppose to microbenchmarks. Need to evaluate the whole system get for the money paid, not just the microprocessor by itself.

[strausd]

hey everyone im new here, and actually still a PC user at the moment but have been saving up to buy my first Mac Pro (at the Academy of Art i worked with mac for 4 years so i'm familiar with MAc). I'm hoping you guys could maybe help me answer my question:

Since i was planning on buying the MP in March, Ive been confronted with the dilemma of waiting for the updated version or just go for the current entry level 8-core configuration. I'm really not that familiar with hardware specs..etc but i understand that the current config is a bit overpriced so It seemed like the smartest thing to do was just wait for the update.

The plan is to use the MP for Graphic purposes (illustrator, photoshop, indesign, and digital painting/drawing) In the future i'm also planning on doing some video editing (purely out of interest, not at a prof. level, and it would be cool if i could edit my music (synthesizers, drumcomputer) with the Mac Pro

Now the question is what would be the best and most bang for my buck, ofcourse its still a bit of guessing on how the setups of the new machines will look like but going from what "VirtualRain" guessed

$2400 > Entry Quad
$2900 > High-end Quad
$3300 > Entry Octo
$3500 > High-end Hex
$4500 > Mid Octo
$5500 > High-end Octo
$6000 > Dodeca

And since i was planning on buying the 8-core anyway...should i just go for the updated 8-core or is the High-end-hex 6 core actually going to be better performance/faster?. could you maybe try and explain as simple as possible why to choose one over the other:o

Budget is going to be around 3500$

Sorry for the long question but since its going to be my first Mac and took me ages to save up for this I'd hate to make decisions i might regret later.

thnx anyone for their time

I completely disagree with his prices. The price for the quad core CPU when it was first put in the MP is the same price as the current hexa cores. My guess is that there will be a good chance of them swapping out a quad for a hexa and dual quads for dual hexas at the same or close to the same price. No matter what you should wait til the next update. If you don't like what you see then buy refurb.

[JesterJJZ]

Talking about pricing is boring. Get we get back to arguing about the inclusion of USB 3.0, Lightpeak and Blu Ray? :D

[fearoftigers]

My most burning question is 'when?'.

I know this is finger in the air stuff but are there any measures at all that we can use to predict when new Mac Pro will be out. Dwindling stock at retail maybe?

I've seen an unusually large number of deals on Mac Pro's recently just do a search on Twitter to see what I mean.

[wilsonlaidlaw]

Talking about pricing is boring. Get we get back to arguing about the inclusion of USB 3.0, Lightpeak and Blu Ray? :D

Sadly Mr. Jobs does not seem to understand Blu-Ray. The format has been relatively stable for over 12 months now. The cheapest HP's and Acer's have Blu-Ray. From my POV, the ability to write huge amounts of data (108 MB TIFF's) onto a readily postable disc, would make life much easier. I really don't want yet another external device hanging off my machine. I have been waiting to replace our wonderfully reliable Dual G5 PowerMac server until a MacPro with built in Blu-Ray comes out.

Wilson

[ValSalva]

Sadly Mr. Jobs does not seem to understand Blu-Ray. The format has been relatively stable for over 12 months now. The cheapest HP's and Acer's have Blu-Ray. From my POV, the ability to write huge amounts of data (108 MB TIFF's) onto a readily postable disc, would make life much easier. I really don't want yet another external device hanging off my machine. I have been waiting to replace our wonderfully reliable Dual G5 PowerMac server until a MacPro with built in Blu-Ray comes out.

Wilson

OWC sells Blu-Ray kits for the Mac Pro. Won't Toast burn to Blu-Ray? And won't VLC play Blu-Ray discs? They might have to be 'unprotected' non-DRM Blu-Ray ones though. One could use Windows in boot camp or a VM to get the content off the Blu-Ray disk.

It would be great to see Apple support Blu-Ray but the odds of that happening seem pretty low.

[wilsonlaidlaw]

OWC sells Blu-Ray kits for the Mac Pro. Won't Toast burn to Blu-Ray? And won't VLC play Blu-Ray discs? They might have to be 'unprotected' non-DRM Blu-Ray ones though. One could use Windows in boot camp or a VM to get the content off the Blu-Ray disk.

It would be great to see Apple support Blu-Ray but the odds of that happening seem pretty low.

Thanks for the thought but sticking non-mac bits in our PowerMac, has in the past not met with a lot of success in some cases e.g SCSI card, bluetooth card. Burning discs is a funny business, sometimes it seems so straightforward and the next time you have a total nightmare. My iMac burns DVD's a treat and of course, that is all Apple components. I would therefore just rather wait until Mr. Jobs wakes up and smells the coffee.

Our PowerMac server marches on, having now been running 24/7/365 for 5 years, pretty much non-stop apart, from me replacing the hard discs every 2 years as a precaution. By far the most reliable computer I have had in 50 years - I started at university, making beer money, punching Fortran input cards for English Electric 2000 and IBM 709 tube computers, the size of a small house.

Wilson

[Mackilroy]

There's nothing special about Apple hardware that makes it so using something Apple doesn't install risky. My Mac Pro had non-Apple RAM, a non-Apple GPU and a non-Apple DVD burner in it and they've all worked excellently.

[wilsonlaidlaw]

There's nothing special about Apple hardware that makes it so using something Apple doesn't install risky. My Mac Pro had non-Apple RAM, a non-Apple GPU and a non-Apple DVD burner in it and they've all worked excellently.

I agree to an extent, in that I tend to use Kingston RAM and Hitachi hard drives, where I think the variable speed is a nice feature. However replacing the DVD/CD drive, which is a pretty vital part of the Mac and has to be tied in with the BIOS, so that you can boot off it, with a Blu-Ray burner, sounds like a potential recipe for disaster. Especially with a Power PC machine, on which you would wonder how much effort was put into getting the BIOS boot correct, given that they are obsolescent. It might be OK on a Mac-Pro, where you could put it in as a second non-boot drive.

Wilson

[brendu]

I assume that the new MacPro will have 2 slots to put in the iPads.
As the iPads run on pure magic, the dual-socket MacPro would be twice as magic.
It will come with a finger longer so you can use the touch screen by pointing through the case opening.

as professor farnsworth put it, its a finglonger...

I just hope they can increase specs for mac pro users and also make a new model... give me a mac pro chassis but make it black and give it good enough specs to be an upgradable mac gaming computer... call it the Mac ENT (for entertainment).. they need something that can handle all of STEAMS offerings and do so well... unfortunately they are going to use the appleTV as their gaming platform in the future which sucks.

[Murray M]

Sadly Mr. Jobs does not seem to understand Blu-Ray. The format has been relatively stable for over 12 months now. The cheapest HP's and Acer's have Blu-Ray. From my POV, the ability to write huge amounts of data (108 MB TIFF's) onto a readily postable disc, would make life much easier. I really don't want yet another external device hanging off my machine. I have been waiting to replace our wonderfully reliable Dual G5 PowerMac server until a MacPro with built in Blu-Ray comes out.

Wilson

Apple has nothing to gain with BR. Blue ray is already dead. Video is going the same way music has gone: everything will be on harddrives. BR is perhaps the best way to distribute HD content for now, however this window is quickly closing with multimedia harddrives getting better faster and computer to TV solutions getting better even faster (pay close attention to the new AppleTV that might be announced June 7).

The main problem with BR: it is a licensing nightmare.

[nanofrog]

Apple has nothing to gain with BR. Blue ray is already dead. Video is going the same way music has gone: everything will be on harddrives. BR is perhaps the best way to distribute HD content for now, however this window is quickly closing with multimedia harddrives getting better faster and computer to TV solutions getting better even faster (pay close attention to the new AppleTV that might be announced June 7).

The main problem with BR: it is a licensing nightmare.
Your argument has a major flaw though. ISP bandwidth isn't adequate for 1080p signals, and may not be ubiquitous enough for some time.

I see it more as both a licensing and control issue (Sony owns the IP). Paying money to use something they have little to no control over, nah... I don't see Steve Jobs responding favorably to that at all.

[wilsonlaidlaw]

Your argument has a major flaw though. ISP bandwidth isn't adequate for 1080p signals, and may not be ubiquitous enough for some time.

I see it more as both a licensing and control issue (Sony owns the IP). Paying money to use something they have little to no control over, nah... I don't see Steve Jobs responding favorably to that at all.

I totally agree. As someone who has a rural house, I suspect I shall be pushing up the daises before my broadband speeds go more than 100% to 200% above what I have at the moment (2mbps). An HD 120 minute movie in 1080P coded say in H264 is around 22 GB. Assuming a real download speed of say 0.5 GB/hour, that is 44 hours per movie. Even a 200% improvement only brings that down to 15 hours. I think I will be buying Blu-Rays for some time.

I think it is time for Jobs to swallow his pride/ego and pay the licence price to Sony and the other consortia members for Blu-Ray. If Acer et al can do it on a £400 laptop, surely Apple can do it on £1,000 plus ones. There will be people out there, who will just not buy Mac's because they don't have Blu-Ray. It really does make commercial sense. As an Apple shareholder, I think it is high time the Apple board over-ruled Jobs or is the board just a rubber stamp for a one man dictatorship.

Wilson

[deconstruct60]

Sadly Mr. Jobs does not seem to understand Blu-Ray.

Or understands Blu-Ray all too well. It competes with his online store. Blu-Ray as a data only device doesn't have huge blockers to deployment. Apple (Jobs) just doesn't want to. Usually, the primary motivation behind them blocking something is that it puts more money in their pocket. The is followed in second place by giving Apple more control.


If Acer et al can do it on a £400 laptop, surely Apple ...


That is a BR reader only or a R/W drive? The reader drives have dropped below a $100 but the writers are still a substantial multiple over the DVD burners. ( Apple can be cheap. If it is too expensive of a component they won't touch it unless they are going to get a bigger mark up. Don't think BR drives will enable that.)


Even more to the point if 3rd parties are currently selling them at $189 (e.g., http://eshop.macsales.com/item/LG/WH10LS30KMP/) and they plug into a MacPro and work .... what is the big licensing blocker for those companies? There isn't one.

There are two points in the Blu-ray spectrum. One as a higher capacity portable media writing media. The other as a HD movie delivery media.
The latter is where is a bit of a licensing and data rights management issue.
The former isn't a problem.

Internet ( "Could" ) based FTP sites obviate shipping clients data on a disk, but in many cases still cheaper to do it with optical media + snail mail than electronic or "give away" flash drives. If BR-ROM + DVD-read/write drives can drop low enough to become standard issue on WinPCs then Apple may have to cave on this. Until then though, I expect they will remain obstructionists on this front.


Apple can do it on £1,000 plus ones.


Not necessarily. Remember Apple laptops will require the more rare, minimum height alternatives. Component costs will play a factor.

[Murray M]

Your argument has a major flaw though. ISP bandwidth isn't adequate for 1080p signals, and may not be ubiquitous enough for some time.

I see it more as both a licensing and control issue (Sony owns the IP). Paying money to use something they have little to no control over, nah... I don't see Steve Jobs responding favorably to that at all.

[I'm enjoying this debate, thanks]

Keep in mind that Apple wants us to buy their stuff. Why would they help someone else, like Sony, create a market in a sector they want to dominate? Why should they make BR work well when there are a lot of people who'll just buy a Mac Mini or a multimedia HD to make the problem go away?

Best advise: don't throw too much money at a Blue Ray collection. It's an easy guess that there are many smart engineers working on a better solution to the HD delivery and storage problem. Everyone needs this so there is a LOT of money to be made.

[H. Flower]

[I'm enjoying this debate, thanks]

Keep in mind that Apple wants us to buy their stuff. Why would they help someone else, like Sony, create a market in a sector they want to dominate?


Because Mac Pros are supposed to be professional multi-media machines. Professionals need Blu-Ray.

People who buy Mac Pros have more uses for high definition beyond watching movies downloaded from Itunes.

[Murray M]

Because Mac Pros are supposed to be professional multi-media machines. Professionals need Blu-Ray.

People who buy Mac Pros have more uses for high definition beyond watching movies downloaded from Itunes.

I disagree [in good humor].

The MP is a professional workstation to generate pro work (I agree with you). What I'm saying is that Blue Ray will quickly not appeal to professional videographers who are looking to distribute their work OR for general entertainment purposes. Blue Ray--and and the idea of media housed on a disc--is dead. Apple would be crazy to bring BR to the MP.

Take a look at the current rumors. Apple is expected to come out with an iphone sized AppleTV that connects with a time machine or the cloud. This is a check-mate move to BR. If you can easily manage you video files through a computer or cloud and have an easy/compact/cheap devise to make it happen than APPLE WILL KILL BLUE RAY LIKE IT ALREADY HAS KILLED MUSIC CDS. This goes for entertainment purposes AND PROFESSIONAL DISTRIBUTION.

Sorry to make all you guys mad who have spent a lot of money on BR systems, but it seems kinda obvious at this point (and will most likely seem a lot more obvious on June 7).

Apple has NEVER been on board with BR. If they were even a little bit then they would have included it in FCP Studio 2 (and FCPS2 Compressor has a cheat that does it, but that's not real commitment--it's included so that Apple can advertise BR support but note that DVD studio does not support it and Compressor's hack is so limited that it's a joke for pro distribution).

[nanofrog]

I totally agree. As someone who has a rural house, I suspect I shall be pushing up the daises before my broadband speeds go more than 100% to 200% above what I have at the moment (2mbps). An HD 120 minute movie in 1080P coded say in H264 is around 22 GB. Assuming a real download speed of say 0.5 GB/hour, that is 44 hours per movie. Even a 200% improvement only brings that down to 15 hours. I think I will be buying Blu-Rays for some time.
1080P uncompressed streaming would require 40Mb/s at a bare minimum. Granted, what we'd see will almost certainly be compressed to reduce the bandwidth requirement (but it has to be balanced with what the hardware can uncompress without generating artifacts that weren't in the original material pre-compression).

Assuming that can allow a realistic speed of 30MB/s (safely), it's going to be awhile, as I'm only aware of Cable based ISP's (Comcast offering that speed, and given the tech, it's not a guarantee it will actually run that quickly, as there will be other users sharing the pipe).

DSL is typically only offered in a max band of 6.0Mb/s for some users. WiMax is an alternative, but it's a ways off as well to be widely available.

And no matter the ISP source, it has to be cheap enough that the vast majority of users will subscribe to that much band (or better).

This will require time, as the infrastructure's aren't adequate in the US as they currently exist. Some countries, such as Japan, are ahead of us as far as what service can be obtained (though it's a tad pricey yet).

Usually, the primary motivation behind them blocking something is that it puts more money in their pocket. The is followed in second place by giving Apple more control.
This was my point. It's not technical issues, but the fact that Apple doesn't want to pay licensing fees on a technology they don't have full control over.

That is a BR reader only or a R/W drive?
A valid point in the MP, but with netbooks, a reader is all that's needed (consumer product) to give users what they want.

Even more to the point if 3rd parties are currently selling them at $189 (e.g., http://eshop.macsales.com/item/LG/WH10LS30KMP/) and they plug into a MacPro and work .... what is the big licensing blocker for those companies? There isn't one.
It's not the hardware, but the software licensing that has Apple in an uproar. That drive will play native BRD's under Windows, but not OS X, as Apple's not negotiated for licensing, and can't add in the necessary code to make it work legally without it.

Remember, BRD's include copy protection, unless the user actually owns the content, such as personally recorded material or that they paid for, like a wedding video.

If the user is doing their own, then Yes, it will work without a problem so long as they've an application like Toast that can read or burn the disks (data or non-copy protected video).

Internet ( "Could" ) based FTP sites obviate shipping clients data on a disk, but in many cases still cheaper to do it with optical media + snail mail than electronic or "give away" flash drives. If BR-ROM + DVD-read/write drives can drop low enough to become standard issue on WinPCs then Apple may have to cave on this. Until then though, I expect they will remain obstructionists on this front.
Economics are always the key.

Bandwidth would be highly desired by those downloading, to shorten the time needed to obtain the material. If MP3's took a day to download a single file, downloads wouldn't have overtaken CD sales (physical media).

So the bandwidth has to be cheap enough, as would be the system (latter isn't a problem). But sufficient bandwidth isn't readily available yet (let alone inexpensive).

[I'm enjoying this debate, thanks]

Keep in mind that Apple wants us to buy their stuff. Why would they help someone else, like Sony, create a market in a sector they want to dominate? Why should they make BR work well when there are a lot of people who'll just buy a Mac Mini or a multimedia HD to make the problem go away?

Best advise: don't throw too much money at a Blue Ray collection. It's an easy guess that there are many smart engineers working on a better solution to the HD delivery and storage problem. Everyone needs this so there is a LOT of money to be made.

What I'm saying is that Blue Ray will quickly not appeal to professional videographers who are looking to distribute their work OR for general entertainment purposes. Blue Ray--and and the idea of media housed on a disc--is dead.
Not yet it isn't.

Media can (and is) sent via HDD between large production houses according to some members that work for such companies (I've no reason to doubt this, and it actually makes sense, as the data un-edited footage,... = extremely large amount of data).

For consumers, there's not an alternative available that's cheaper. Ideally, the idea is to distribute over the Internet just as MP3's or compressed SD video (some 720P).

But for 1080P, the currently available bandwidth isn't sufficient. Once that infrastructure is in place however, it will take over and displace physical media.

Take a look at the current rumors. Apple is expected to come out with an iphone sized AppleTV that connects with a time machine or the cloud.
It still depends on the bandwidth (speed) that data can be delivered, especially for streamed content, such as movies.

WiMax (and similar services) for example, aren't ubiquitous yet, and some users that do have access may consider it too expensive just to use for entertainment purposes (email for example doesn't require that much).

Apple has NEVER been on board with BR. If they were even a little bit then they would have included it in FCP Studio 2 (and FCPS2 Compressor has a cheat that does it, but that's not real commitment--it's included so that Apple can advertise BR support but note that DVD studio does not support it and Compressor's hack is so limited that it's a joke for pro distribution).
Somehow, if there wasn't any licensing requirements (open spec), we wouldn't even be having this conversation. :eek: :p

[xi mezmerize ix]

It will contain Harry Potter on steroids.

[CountlovE]

Apple will never release hardware with BlueRay... Why should they when they have a iTunes store for downloading of movies and mp3s. They would be loosing money by releasing BlueRay drives on their hardware.

Now what I hate about downloadable content is drive failure. I have lost a ton of songs I purchased from iTunes because of that library consolidation bug. I wish iTunes did what steam does with games. If I purchase with steam, I have those purchases for life. Apple needs to do the same exact thing, but allow me to play anything I purchase on what ever I wish.

[nanofrog]

Why should they when they have a iTunes store for downloading of movies and mp3s. They would be loosing money by releasing BlueRay drives on their hardware.

Now what I hate about downloadable content is drive failure. I have lost a ton of songs I purchased from iTunes because of that library consolidation bug. I wish iTunes did what steam does with games. If I purchase with steam, I have those purchases for life. Apple needs to do the same exact thing, but allow me to play anything I purchase on what ever I wish.
BRD movies are larger than OS .iso images (typically 4 - 5GB).

The original BD spec is 25GB per disk, and 50GB disks have surfaced as well. :eek: Granted, the movie may not fill the disk, but it's still quite large. Since most people won't want to spend a day or longer to download it, that's not really a viable distribution method just yet.

In time, yes. But the ISP infrastructure will have to be improved for sufficient bandwidth first. And that takes both time and money (from companies that want to wait for the US government to pay for it via Public Works projects, such as highway upgrades, extensions,... as much as possible = delays).

[Cave Man]

Blue Ray--and and the idea of media housed on a disc--is dead.

Optical media will be here until a suitable replacement is available, and that won't be anytime soon.

[Cave Man]

Apple needs to do the same exact thing, but allow me to play anything I purchase on what ever I wish.

You can already play your songs on any device that supports AAC, provided those songs are of the post-protected era. With videos the issue is with the studios, not Apple.

[TheStrudel]

BRD movies are larger than OS .iso images (typically 4 - 5GB).

The original BD spec is 25GB per disk, and 50GB disks have surfaced as well. :eek: Granted, the movie may not fill the disk, but it's still quite large.

Dual Layer BDs have actually been around for a very long time, and been used to deliver many, many movies (in fact, most BD movies take up way more than the 23.5 GB you can fit on a single layer, with extras and the various audio tracks, etc.) and games (I can think of at least three high-profile games that ran well into the second layer and sold millions). And when you start considering, say, the Lord of the Rings films in their extended versions, it quickly becomes easy to run over the 47 GB you'll get out of a DL BD.

Since then, they've managed to boost single layers to 33.4 GB and they've figured out how to cram something like 4-8 extra layers on a disc, readable by existing hardware with just firmware updates.

Somehow, I'm willing to bet that there won't be a competing optical media format for some time, and when it arrives it'll have an uphill battle against Blu-ray, which is already entrenched.

Aside from shipping hard drives or SD cards with the media on them, there's no replacement for high resolution video (Don't forget, 3D will require more space and there will be more resolution boosts upcoming) for consumer delivery.

The bandwidth just isn't there yet, especially in America. I envy Hong Kong's 100 Mbps symmetrical connections for $15/mo, because I'm paying $60/mo for 15/5 on FiOS. I feel ripped off.

[Techhie]

The bandwidth just isn't there yet, especially in America. I envy Hong Kong's 100 Mbps symmetrical connections for $15/mo, because I'm paying $60/mo for 15/5 on FiOS. I feel ripped off.

This is because we continue lining up like cattle to the ISPs. They spend little to nothing upgrading their networks to match current standards...why? Because it makes them obscene profits, and that matters more than progress.

The only ways to escape the provider trap are through governmental force (like the FCC forcing network upgrades for telecoms), or the introduction of a radical ISP to show Americans what they should be getting.

Google's broadband promises to be a real cup of coffee to the industry.

[wilsonlaidlaw]

Internet ( "Could" ) based FTP sites obviate shipping clients data on a disk, but in many cases still cheaper to do it with optical media + snail mail than electronic or "give away" flash drives. If BR-ROM + DVD-read/write drives can drop low enough to become standard issue on WinPCs then Apple may have to cave on this. Until then though, I expect they will remain obstructionists on this front.

The same bandwidth argument applies (for me anyway). Let us say I want to send a client 200 images. Now my 16 bit TIFF's are 108MB each. That is 21.6 GB. My upload speeds are 375 kbps from our UK base and 290 kpbs from France. That would mean an upload time of around 120+ hours to an FTP site (I do have a YouSendIt account). Not really practical. Now at the moment I do use stick drives and ask for them to be returned, as a good quality 32GB stick drive does not come cheap. They rarely do get returned and there is then a row when I charge for them. A Blu-Ray writer would make life a lot easier for me.

I am 100% sure there is no financial argument over fitting a Blu-Ray writer in a Mac-Pro (they just charge for them like any other extra) and given the progress in broadband speeds (nil in 8 years for me), Blu-Rays are going to be around for I would guess 10 years or so. The most likely replacement for B-R is a flash memory chip rather than a downloading solution. The only reason for not fitting them is Mr. Job's ego (not invented here) and nothing logical.

Wilson

[apolloa]

This is because we continue lining up like cattle to the ISPs. They spend little to nothing upgrading their networks to match current standards...why? Because it makes them obscene profits, and that matters more than progress.

I work for an ISP in the UK (Don't even ask who) and I can tell you they make peanuts on the BB they sell. the market is so competitive that you have to almost sell it at a loss to get subscribers.
But my ISP also is spending millions yearly upgrading the network and installing it's own equipment into exchanges.
The back bone of our network also has NO bandwidth problems, in fact the bandwidth available is huge and won't be at capacity for a very long time.

The trouble with BB is the users and the telephone lines. Users tend to use ext sockets of telephone extension cables which kill your bandwidth. I've seen it so many times.
And as for BT is the age old 'golden mile' that piece of copper or, in the worst case, aluminium cable that runs from the exchange to your house that potentially has been there for 60 years.
But in the UK BT are at least installing optic to the CAB and in some areas to the door step so you will get between 50 to 100mbps speeds. My ISP is already testing it.
So I would expect in the UK for these products to be on sale within I guess 2 or 3 years? Maybe less. I guess it depends on how much coverage has been done with optic.

Anyway on a side note, I have up to 8mbps ADSL BB. With the package I'm on then I get free unlimited downloading between 12 AM and 8AM with as much bandwith as I can get, the network is totally unrestricted.
Now with this I have used the Playstation PS3 I have to download off Sony's PSN a 9 GB HD film in 3 to 4 hours.
So IMO the bandwith problem is not specific to everyone or every country.

I have no doubt we are going to be a download only planet and 'the cloud' will rule all. Its just going to take time to get there :)
Another example of changing tech is USB keys and memory cards, when was the last time you burnt a CD or DVD?

EDIT: The reason why some country's have 100 and even 1000mbps networks is because they started the entire infrastructure from scrap and there government paid a lot for it...

[apolloa]

And as for a post relevant to this thread :D I think a new case design is a certain? Mind you I thought that last year haha.
But it is aged now and is the odd one out in the range. Plus isn't it a few years old now? And what about the 32" LCD people thought would get released?

[VelNZ]

Good points, quite interesting discussion. To me it seems that the upgraded networks and the uptake of 1080p streaming will take so long that by then Blu-Ray will either be at a much higher than 1080p capacity (as stated by another poster) or another format will come along that will beat it. It is much faster to make a new format, be it optical or flash than it is to put down the cables for delivering more bandwidth worldwide.

Also, compressed sound and video are not as good as uncompressed. This is the reason I no longer purchase music from iTunes. FLAC/Apple Lossless are better.

[TheStrudel]

EDIT: The reason why some country's have 100 and even 1000mbps networks is because they started the entire infrastructure from scrap and there government paid a lot for it...

I have fiber optic service, though. I feel ripped off because Verizon already said they could do 100 symmetrical to all their existing FiOS customers. They of course, as stated, just want to make as much money as possible.

And yes, I do think the federal government can and should address this. But given the political climate here, any changes will be slow and they still won't get to the most rural customers.

So we're stuck with optical media for the time being.

[handheldgames]

In Apple tradition...

Increased core CPU W/ or W/O a CPU tray change. Same "low" price.
Upgraded video card. ATI 59XX or 58XX
No Nvidia Firmi. Too loud for a MacPro.

So much for magic.. :cool:

Intel Lightspeed tech? Probably too soon.

[parakiet]

depends from isp to isp

here i pay 42 euro for 30 gig / month :eek:

[nanofrog]

Dual Layer BDs have actually been around for a very long time, and been used to deliver many, many movies (in fact, most BD movies take up way more than the 23.5 GB you can fit on a single layer, with extras and the various audio tracks, etc.) and games (I can think of at least three high-profile games that ran well into the second layer and sold millions). And when you start considering, say, the Lord of the Rings films in their extended versions, it quickly becomes easy to run over the 47 GB you'll get out of a DL BD.

Since then, they've managed to boost single layers to 33.4 GB and they've figured out how to cram something like 4-8 extra layers on a disc, readable by existing hardware with just firmware updates.

Somehow, I'm willing to bet that there won't be a competing optical media format for some time, and when it arrives it'll have an uphill battle against Blu-ray, which is already entrenched.

Aside from shipping hard drives or SD cards with the media on them, there's no replacement for high resolution video (Don't forget, 3D will require more space and there will be more resolution boosts upcoming) for consumer delivery.

The bandwidth just isn't there yet, especially in America. I envy Hong Kong's 100 Mbps symmetrical connections for $15/mo, because I'm paying $60/mo for 15/5 on FiOS. I feel ripped off.
I knew the larger capacity disks have been around, I couldn't recall the date they appeared. I also recall mention of 100GB, and possibly 200GB will be produced at some future date.

But when I was thinking on a movie on 25GB disks, it would be "bare bones"; basic movie, no additional content to make sure it fit and would play on any BD Player (firmware updates may not be consistent enough from manufacturer to manufacturer, causing a larger capacity disk to not work properly on some equipment = unwatchable).

Then when I see other disks for the additional content, it seemed to fit with that logic. (I don't have a BR reader/burner in a computer, just a BD Player for the HD set, so I haven't been able to check the disks I own for size or filled capacity).

I agree, it will be BD for sometime yet, as with the discontinuation of HD-DVD, no one else would try.

Bandwidth is the real issue, as that's what will eventually replace physical media for 1080P and future specifications (3D, higher resolutions,...). But as the US is slow to upgrade and adopt newer tech (companies want to make every cent possible by dragging it out and attempting to get government projects to foot at least part of the bill), that's going to be awhile.

[Icaras]

Apple has nothing to gain with BR. Blue ray is already dead. Video is going the same way music has gone: everything will be on harddrives. BR is perhaps the best way to distribute HD content for now, however this window is quickly closing with multimedia harddrives getting better faster and computer to TV solutions getting better even faster (pay close attention to the new AppleTV that might be announced June 7).

The main problem with BR: it is a licensing nightmare.

Oh great, the whole "blu-ray is dead" bit has invaded this thread. Here we go again, as usual. God, I love how you people are so wrong and continue to ignore, ignore, and ignore factual, statistical data time and time again.

You love to spread so much doom and gloom to the format, yet fail every time to back your claims up with any data.

It's appalling really, I don't even know where to start.

[rajbonham]

Oh great, the whole "blu-ray is dead" bit has invaded this thread. Here we go again, as usual. God, I love how you people are so wrong and continue to ignore, ignore, and ignore factual, statistical data time and time again.

You love to spread so much doom and gloom to the format, yet fail every time to back your claims up with any data.

It's appalling really, I don't even know where to start.

Thank you! I totally agree. Blu-Ray (it's not spelled Blue Ray :rolleyes:) is far from dead. Blu-Ray players are starting to show up in the $100 price range, which continues to open up the format to more and more consumers.

Don't even talk about downloading 1080p content. On your average household, high speed connection, a full HD would take at least hours, if not days to download. Why would I wait days, when I can pick up a Blu-Ray at Best Buy and be watching it at home within an hour? As for streaming, again, most high speed connections would still result in low quality or "choppy" video.

As for the SD card/flash memory options mentioned... What? Since when are memory cards as cheap as a Blu-Ray disc?

Sorry, Blu-Ray is far from dead.

[jjahshik32]

Thank you! I totally agree. Blu-Ray (it's not spelled Blue Ray :rolleyes:) is far from dead. Blu-Ray players are starting to show up in the $100 price range, which continues to open up the format to more and more consumers.

Don't even talk about downloading 1080p content. On your average household, high speed connection, a full HD would take at least hours, if not days to download. Why would I wait days, when I can pick up a Blu-Ray at Best Buy and be watching it at home within an hour? As for streaming, again, most high speed connections would still result in low quality or "choppy" video.

As for the SD card/flash memory options mentioned... What? Since when are memory cards as cheap as a Blu-Ray disc?

Sorry, Blu-Ray is far from dead.

I d/l 1080p bluray movies (even a week before it hits retails) and it takes me 2 and half hours to get the 9-12GB bluray movie that looks exactly the same in quality as a real bluray. Thank God for newsgroup leeching and I only have comcast residential cable. :)

By the end of the day, I can watch 8-9 new bluray movies. Especially movies you CANT find at best buy or even netflex such as international, hong kong, film festival goodies.

I just saw the announcement for the "Lost" 6 seasons on bluray. It'll take me 3-4 hours to get it all and saves me $280.

[fearoftigers]

When people...when?

Does anyone read Chinese or Cantonese? What could we be searching for?

I think the Chinese character for new is 新. Am I right?

so "新 mac pro" could be a good search.

In Vietnamese 'mới' according to Google translate.

What else? Ideas? Come on people!:eek:

[Pressure]

I d/l 1080p bluray movies (even a week before it hits retails) and it takes me 2 and half hours to get the 9-12GB bluray movie that looks exactly the same in quality as a real bluray. Thank God for newsgroup leeching and I only have comcast residential cable. :)

By the end of the day, I can watch 8-9 new bluray movies. Especially movies you CANT find at best buy or even netflex such as international, hong kong, film festival goodies.

I just saw the announcement for the "Lost" 6 seasons on bluray. It'll take me 3-4 hours to get it all and saves me $280.

So in the end, you find stealing to be perfectly fine?

Interesting but bloody stupid. There is no such thing as a free meal. Somewhere along the chain someone will suffer because of your lack of character.

I agree, however, that digital content is the way ahead for the industry when a better infrastructure for retrieving said content is there. The ability to stream any content you wish to see at any point in time would be the "holy grail".

[jjahshik32]

So in the end, you find stealing to be perfectly fine?

Interesting but bloody stupid. There is no such thing as a free meal. Somewhere along the chain someone will suffer because of your lack of character.

I agree, however, that digital content is the way ahead for the industry when a better infrastructure for retrieving said content is there. The ability to stream any content you wish to see at any point in time would be the "holy grail".

I find downloading content just fine because if you really like that movie and become a fan, you can buy the bluray for it. Also the movie industry will not go down at all, if anything helps them more with sales. This is the same perspective most software developers have as well (surprisingly).

I still have to pay for newsgroup services so its not totally free. I pay $24.95 a month from giganews for their unlimited service, which imo well worth it.

If you want to get into the "stealing" argument, Most people have done it or is DOING it.

[reel2reel]

I d/l 1080p bluray movies (even a week before it hits retails) and it takes me 2 and half hours to get the 9-12GB bluray movie that looks exactly the same in quality as a real bluray. Thank God for newsgroup leeching and I only have comcast residential cable. :)

By the end of the day, I can watch 8-9 new bluray movies. Especially movies you CANT find at best buy or even netflex such as international, hong kong, film festival goodies.

I just saw the announcement for the "Lost" 6 seasons on bluray. It'll take me 3-4 hours to get it all and saves me $280.

You're assuming everyone has all the free time you do and is as cheap as you are. I personally don't have the time and don't want to work so hard to get my movies. I just picked up two blu's for 8 bucks a piece while you're wasting time trolling around the internet and downloading your compressed movies. I also don't believe your 9GB looks as good as my 50GB*. Maybe to your eyes, but I can't live with compression artifacts. Not to mention you have none of the extras from the disc, etc, etc. Oh wait, you can find those on Pirate Bay too, I'm guessing.

Have fun. :rolleyes:

*well, depending on your taste in movies, maybe it doesn't make a difference. I'm not buying Miley Cyrus movies.

[jjahshik32]

You're assuming everyone has all the free time you do and is as cheap as you are. I personally don't have the time and don't want to work so hard to get my movies. I just picked up two blu's for 8 bucks a piece while you're wasting time trolling around the internet and downloading your compressed movies. I also don't believe your 9GB looks as good as my 50GB*. Maybe to your eyes, but I can't live with compression artifacts. Not to mention you have none of the extras from the disc, etc, etc. Oh wait, you can find those on Pirate Bay too, I'm guessing.

Have fun. :rolleyes:

*well, depending on your taste in movies, maybe it doesn't make a difference. I'm not buying Miley Cyrus movies.

Well all it takes is just downloading one nzb file and just launching it in the background to leech automatically all the rar and par files. You dont have to do anything else just one click download. By the end of the day just look at the download folder and just unrar and watch the movies.

Miley what?? I dont even know what miley cyrus is?

Most of the movies I watch are from the UK, film festivals, hong kong films that have won international awards and much better movies than you'd find here at the movie theaters. I do download some of the movies from the states that are good for example book of eli was a good movie (got it on bluray 4 weeks ago from newsgroups) oh and the wolfman was good with anthony hopkins (d/led this 2 weeks ago on bluray as well).

I've compared the exact same movies from a 9gb mkv file with aac or ac3 with full dts to a straight up bluray disc that I played through the ps3 (transformers and avatar) and I cannot tell the difference. Most of the blurays are filled in with sound files (these are for the high performing receivers that audiophile or moviephiles wants every bit of surround sound as they can squeeze from) I dont care too much about sound in that sense. I do have a pair of b&w 805S and I cant tell the difference from the yamaha receiver from the bluray disc or mkv files either.

Unless you have a 20k+ sound system that can distinguish the sound from a bluray disc as to an mkv file and squeeze out every ounce of sound thats not very important really imo.

update: I just googled miley cyrus.. Its a girl?? But who is she? Sorry guys I dont watch tv I only read books and watch movies on the weekends.

[reel2reel]

I just googled miley cyrus.. Its a girl?? But who is she? Sorry guys I dont watch tv I only read books and watch movies on the weekends.

She's a PG-rated soft-porn actress in the US. Download 'Best of Both Worlds Concert: The 3-D Movie: Extended Edition' and check her out.

[jjahshik32]

She's a PG-rated soft-porn actress in the US. Download 'Best of Both Worlds Concert: The 3-D Movie: Extended Edition' and check her out.

She's not that pretty. :(

Anyway regarding this thread, I'm yearning for the new mac pros. I miss the hdd sleds and I'm tired of daisy chaining firewire external hdd from terabytes to terabytes. I'd like to get the new mac pro and get 2tb hdds into the bays.

[Icaras]

Thank you! I totally agree. Blu-Ray (it's not spelled Blue Ray :rolleyes:) is far from dead. Blu-Ray players are starting to show up in the $100 price range, which continues to open up the format to more and more consumers.

Don't even talk about downloading 1080p content. On your average household, high speed connection, a full HD would take at least hours, if not days to download. Why would I wait days, when I can pick up a Blu-Ray at Best Buy and be watching it at home within an hour? As for streaming, again, most high speed connections would still result in low quality or "choppy" video.

As for the SD card/flash memory options mentioned... What? Since when are memory cards as cheap as a Blu-Ray disc?

Sorry, Blu-Ray is far from dead.

Yea, and unfortunately, no matter how many times these naysayers are proven wrong, even with actual data, they continue to remain blind to the truth.

I d/l 1080p bluray movies (even a week before it hits retails) and it takes me 2 and half hours to get the 9-12GB bluray movie that looks exactly the same in quality as a real bluray. Thank God for newsgroup leeching and I only have comcast residential cable. :)

By the end of the day, I can watch 8-9 new bluray movies. Especially movies you CANT find at best buy or even netflex such as international, hong kong, film festival goodies.

I just saw the announcement for the "Lost" 6 seasons on bluray. It'll take me 3-4 hours to get it all and saves me $280.

Yea yea, but does your 9-12 GB blu-ray movie include other such HD content such as high def, lossless audio? What about bonus features? Those in high def too I mean. And how much did you pay for this so called "blu-ray" quality movie? Please don't say it was free.

How fast you can download HD movies is of little bearing to this argument as it does not represent the mass HD consumer audience. I checked, and as of this writing, I only see 297 HD movies available in iTunes.

Simply clicking "All blu-ray" in Amazon's blu-ray section yields 7,406 results. Even if many of these are in the pipeline still, that is far beyond iTunes has to offer.

Until you show us where you can legally download 1080p content + HD lossless audio + bonus features, there is simply no comparison at this point.

[jjahshik32]

Yea, and unfortunately, no matter how many times these naysayers are proven wrong, even with actual data, they continue to remain blind to the truth.



Yea yea, but does your 9-12 GB blu-ray movie include other such HD content such as high def, lossless audio? What about bonus features? Those in high def too I mean. And how much did you pay for this so called "blu-ray" quality movie? Please don't say it was free.

How fast you can download HD movies is of little bearing to this argument as it does not represent the mass HD consumer audience. I checked, and as of this writing, I only see 297 HD movies available in iTunes.

Simply clicking "All blu-ray" in Amazon's blu-ray section yields 7,406 results. Even if many of these are in the pipeline still, that is far beyond iTunes has to offer.

Until you show us where you can legally download 1080p content + HD lossless audio + bonus features, there is simply no comparison at this point.

Lossless audio or not it sounds the same to me on a 2 speaker configuration. IMO the lossless audio + all the little bits of sound that adds up on the bluray discs are unnecessary.


I'm talking about nzb files downloading from newsgroup servers which is currently showing 9447 bluray movies with each hour updated with new movies (some movies are being uploaded by different groups/people so there are repeats and mixed in with some 720p content as well). I've compared bluray discs to the mkv files no difference at all to me and I'm VERY picky about these things.

If I had a killer surround sound system ($20,000+ systems) where I'd want every droplets of water sounds to be heard from a cave or whatever, then I'd probably want to use bluray discs or download bluray rips that are 25gb+ files).

I never used itunes for movies before nor netflix.

[JesterJJZ]

I disagree [in good humor].
LIKE IT ALREADY HAS KILLED MUSIC CDS.

What planet do you live on? When I walk into a Best Buy about half the store is dedicated to CDs and DVD/BRs. When given the option I always prefer my content on a disc. That way I can do what I what with it and convert it into whatever format I need. Physical media is always a higher quality than anything you can download from iTunes. Physical media will be around for quite some time. It's silly to think otherwise. Not everyone has a computer or internet.

[Dr.Pants]

There will always be need for removable media. Optical is cheap and that's why you have discs.

I live in a rural area. The household I'm in has three internet choices. Dial-up, satellite, or 56/256. Option 1 is horribly slow. Option two is limited to 17 GB/month or 600 MB/day depending on the provider. Option 3, you get the idea.

Downloading information is about downright impossible. If I didn't spend most of my time on a university campus I would have shot myself by now.

Poor connectivity thanks to uncompetitive telecom firms is a good reason why there's a need for optical media. Another reason - DRM. Another reason - consider net booting a server across the internet. Good times for D*mn Small Linux users, but the rest of us? Not so much.

[/rant]

[Icaras]

Lossless audio or not it sounds the same to me on a 2 speaker configuration. IMO the lossless audio + all the little bits of sound that adds up on the bluray discs are unnecessary.

Sorry, but I can certainly here a difference and I will take lossless over lossy any day, thank you very much. By the way, stereo is so 1980s!

Why would anyone want to "downgrade" what is currently being established as the standard audio codec for HD film is beyond me? I can purchase The Dark Knight right now on Amazon for $9.49 and get DolbyTrue HD. Why would I want to go backwards to last generation technology when I get new technology for just as cheap? :confused:


I'm talking about nzb files downloading from newsgroup servers which is currently showing 9447 bluray movies with each hour updated with new movies (some movies are being uploaded by different groups/people so there are repeats and mixed in with some 720p content as well). I've compared bluray discs to the mkv files no difference at all to me and I'm VERY picky about these things.

Your argument is self defeating. Your accessing a server of HD movies ripped off from the very format in which your arguing against. Whew, good thing there is such a huge catalogue of BD titles to rip off, no?

If I had a killer surround sound system ($20,000+ systems) where I'd want every droplets of water sounds to be heard from a cave or whatever, then I'd probably want to use bluray discs or download bluray rips that are 25gb+ files).

Upgrades, upgrades upgrades. Welcome to fast moving pace of technology.

I never used itunes for movies before nor netflix.

Well if you you expect digital downloads to soar, then these two companies will have to start taking things seriously. But at 297 HD movies encoded in 720p and in lossly format, the iTunes store is a joke.

What planet do you live on? When I walk into a Best Buy about half the store is dedicated to CDs and DVD/BRs. When given the option I always prefer my content on a disc. That way I can do what I what with it and convert it into whatever format I need. Physical media is always a higher quality than anything you can download from iTunes. Physical media will be around for quite some time. It's silly to think otherwise. Not everyone has a computer or internet.

Obviously he has not ventured into a Best Buy, Walmart, or a Target as of late and have touched back down to reality.

[jjahshik32]

Sorry, but I can certainly here a difference and I will take lossless over lossy any day, thank you very much. By the way, stereo is so 1980s!




Your argument is self defeating. Your accessing a server of HD movies ripped off from the very format in which your arguing against. Whew, good thing there is such a huge catalogue of BD titles to rip off, no?



Well if you you expect digital downloads to soar, then these two companies will have to start taking things seriously. But at 297 HD movies encoded in 720p and in lossly format, the iTunes store is a joke.



Obviously he has not ventured into a Best Buy, Walmart, or a Target as of late and have touched back down to reality.

Lossless audio such as flac is very nice when your an audiophile and it is a bit clearer and cleaner than say mp3 but in an mkv h264 1080p movie with ac3 and full dts I cannot tell the difference, unless you have the right (expensive) equipment, there really isnt much of a big difference.

I think your just making arguments for the sake of arguing. I know people listen to flac (audiophiles) and I can understand that but for movies, I cannot tell much of a big difference.

Anyway, like I said, I dont use iTunes. I can never find anything I'm looking for on iTunes. Newsgroups is where its at. I dont have to go to amazon and pay $10 or $30-$40 for new bluray movies a pop either and have to wait 3-5 days to receive the bluray to watch it. I get the same quality sound and pq on my big screen 2 hours later the same day. IMO NOTHING beats that. I dont know if your familiar with the newsgroup scene or not but you sure are missing out! 9447 bluray movies at just one click of a button download and watch it 2-3 hours later the same day.

Like I said unless you have a $20,000+ receiver, speaker, surround system, your not going to notice much of a difference.

All MKV bluray movies I d/l pretty much has full dts either with aac or ac3 and (at least on my system) I've compared against a real bluray from the ps3 and it doesnt make much of a difference, if any at all.

And imho, I've always thought that the bluray disc is just too big to fill and its real selling point was hyping up the high quality sounds so that it can become the new standard. Well I suppose the hype is working. Because first hand comparisons for myself these past few years, I cannot tell the difference. Maybe because my sound system is only worth $10,000??

Also its not only the quality of the sound thats SUPPOSED to be better. Bluray is supposed to have more sound samples (usually for full surround systems, and yes it is noticable in high quality systems to notice the difference). As I said earlier in one of my posts, I just use the front speakers (done away with the surround as I thought it was unnecessary) but some folks out there loves the full surround. If you do have a nice full surround system then you can hear more sounds around you with a bluray disc as to a bluray mkv file. But even as a movie lover, surround is overrated imo.

Trust me, if I blindly showed a movie off of my system and had you guess if it was from the 12GB bluray mkv movie I d/led or straight from the bluray disc on a ps3, you could NOT tell the difference. And it has that movie theatre OOMPH to it. :)

[JesterJJZ]

I think the argument against downloads of HD movies is that they wouldn't exist if it weren't for the introduction of Blu Ray and the defunct HD-DVD. They wouldn't even be available in iTunes if the studios didn't already have HD masters made for Blu Ray. Sure we had some HD titles for DVHS but there were maybe 30 ever made. Blu Ray and HD-DVD were the driving force for HD content. It's also the source of your pirated films.

[jjahshik32]

I think the argument against downloads of HD movies is that they wouldn't exist if it weren't for the introduction of Blu Ray and the defunct HD-DVD. They wouldn't even be available in iTunes if the studios didn't already have HD masters made for Blu Ray. Sure we had some HD titles for DVHS but there were maybe 30 ever made. Blu Ray and HD-DVD were the driving force for HD content. It's also the source of your pirated films.

All I'm looking for now is a new projector... Nothing beats a projector experience! Its the REAL next gen imho.

[Techhie]

How about we discuss an aspect of the next MP that hasn't been beaten to death? There are already enough BD arguments on MR, no need to add to an unresolvable argument. Only time will tell.

*takes conversational steering wheel*

Who thinks Apple will have the balls to finally buy 2 GB RAM modules? The current defaults are beyond embarrassing for a $2,500 "workstation."

On another note, I hope they get over their obsession with anemic baseline GPUs, it is really getting old. Wanting the machine to look pretty is one thing, but refusing to put a decent card in as standard because it requires external molex power is downright foolish. :rolleyes:

[Nostromo]

How about we discuss an aspect of the next MP that hasn't been beaten to death?

I looked around, and found no aspect that had a heartbeat.

But then, one day the messiahs... the MacPro will come, and all the aspects will rise from the grave for another round of "What will the next Mac Pro be?"

[Aldaris]

I looked around, and found no aspect that had a heartbeat.

But then, one day the messiahs... the MacPro will come, and all the aspects will rise from the grave for another round of "What will the next Mac Pro be?"

If a revised Mac pro doesn't appear I declare wwdc as the apple pass over.

[Techhie]

If a revised Mac pro doesn't appear I declare wwdc as the apple pass over.

Also the point in time when neglected developers question their company's appreciation, along with the position of the Mac.

Hopefully they don't pull another "We're a mobile devices company."

[J the Ninja]

How about we discuss an aspect of the next MP that hasn't been beaten to death? There are already enough BD arguments on MR, no need to add to an unresolvable argument. Only time will tell.

*takes conversational steering wheel*

Who thinks Apple will have the balls to finally buy 2 GB RAM modules? The current defaults are beyond embarrassing for a $2,500 "workstation."

On another note, I hope they get over their obsession with anemic baseline GPUs, it is really getting old. Wanting the machine to look pretty is one thing, but refusing to put a decent card in as standard because it requires external molex power is downright foolish. :rolleyes:

There has to be such a card, for those who need 4x cards for HUEG monitor arrays. Not to mention the folks who just need to drive monitors for Logic/ProTools/Xcode/someotherprofessionalappthatisn'tGPUdependent would appreciate a card that is quiet, cheap, and doesn't needlessly suck electricity. The baseline MP is meant as a starting point, you BTO the extras or add them in yourself.

[apolloa]

I find downloading content just fine because if you really like that movie and become a fan, you can buy the bluray for it. Also the movie industry will not go down at all, if anything helps them more with sales. This is the same perspective most software developers have as well (surprisingly).

I still have to pay for newsgroup services so its not totally free. I pay $24.95 a month from giganews for their unlimited service, which imo well worth it.

If you want to get into the "stealing" argument, Most people have done it or is DOING it.

Just as a warning the noose is tightning my friend:

http://gizmodo.com/5537281/hurt-locker-producers-take-up-arms-against-pirates
http://gizmodo.com/5550480/hurt-locker-producers-file-5000-lawsuits-against-downloaders

Just to let you know what you do is recorded, if a court order from the copyright owner requests this information, you may get a knock on your door.

[Pressure]

I find downloading content just fine because if you really like that movie and become a fan, you can buy the bluray for it. Also the movie industry will not go down at all, if anything helps them more with sales. This is the same perspective most software developers have as well (surprisingly).

I still have to pay for newsgroup services so its not totally free. I pay $24.95 a month from giganews for their unlimited service, which imo well worth it.

If you want to get into the "stealing" argument, Most people have done it or is DOING it.

Somehow you are totally missing the point.

By paying GigaNews $25 a month does not make the action of downloading copyrighted material legal in any way.

It's also a ridiculously silly, not to mention flawed, argument saying just because other people have done it, makes it somewhat fine that you do it and therefore a social acceptable behavior.

Illegal is still illegal no matter how many do it.

[apolloa]

It's also a ridiculously silly, not to mention flawed, argument saying just because other people have done it, makes it somewhat fine that you do it and therefore a social acceptable behavior.

Illegal is still illegal no matter how many do it.

As in speeding, everyone speeds in their cars or on motorbikes but if your caught your caught, your not going to tell a policeman 'but everyone does it' are you? You'd be totally stupid to do so.

Theft is theft, illegally downloading a film or music is theft, you did not pay for it it's theft.
Forget about the money that superstars get for making a film, instead think about the obscene amount of other people in the credits your stealing from.

[slughead]

I find downloading content just fine because if you really like that movie and become a fan, you can buy the bluray for it. Also the movie industry will not go down at all, if anything helps them more with sales. This is the same perspective most software developers have as well (surprisingly).

What? No. Allowing your software to be pirated does NOT increase sales. Check out THIS (http://www.windowsusers.org/piracy.html) article from a shareware software writer who works for Ambrosia.

As soon as they started implementing real copy protection, they saw a 5 fold increase in sales. When they implemented expiring licenses for "Snapz X", they found that nearly half of all people who upgraded attempted to do so with a pirated code. Ambrosia is now a big, successful software firm, and most of that, according to these numbers, is due to copy protection.

Piracy may help spread MUSIC around so the artists can make more when they TOUR, but as for movies and software (where home-release is the EOL), it's extremely counterproductive.


I know of a few people who pirate (*looks around innocently*) and the mindset that goes along with it. The fact is, if piracy weren't so easy or if it had real consequences, those people would indeed buy more. A lot more. I'm not just talking about "poor college students" who "can't afford it." I'm talking about middle/uppermiddle class people (especially doctors and lawyers, of all people) who just enjoy the convenience and saving a few bucks (even when they have it to spend).

[calderone]

As in speeding, everyone speeds in their cars or on motorbikes but if your caught your caught, your not going to tell a policeman 'but everyone does it' are you? You'd be totally stupid to do so.

Theft is theft, illegally downloading a film or music is theft, you did not pay for it it's theft.
Forget about the money that superstars get for making a film, instead think about the obscene amount of other people in the credits your stealing from.

Actually..

I got pulled over once on the highway. When the officer asked why I was spending, I told him I was going with the flow of traffic, which was true. He let me off :D

So it was kind of a "everyone else is doing it" situation.

[Cindori]

from Hardmac:



Blizzard Entertainment just made a very disruptive announcement for all game developers and publishers that spend so much time creating complicated protection to prevent people (most of the time unsuccessfully) from pirating the programs sold. The criticize mostly restricting DRM systems like the ones developed by Ubisoft that prevent people from playing if they are not constantly connected to the Internet.

There will no such thing for Starcraft II. The game will require an internet connexion to activate the game and register the player on Battle.net, and it will be then possible to play the base game without being connected.
For them, the battle for new protections is always lost even before starting. There are too many people willing to break those protections, way more than developers creating them and so they never stay for long.
Blizzard decided to focus on the content of the game itself rather than spending too much energy protecting it.

[snsr]

Theft is theft, illegally downloading a film or music is theft, you did not pay for it it's theft .

My god you people are brainwashed. Downloading copyrighted material is not theft, it's copyright infringement. A civil offense, not a criminal offense. You cannot 'steal' something that is infinite.

What does this bs have to do with the new Mac pro?

[slughead]

There will no such thing for Starcraft II. The game will require an internet connexion to activate the game and register the player on Battle.net, and it will be then possible to play the base game without being connected.


This was mostly PR hype. 90+% of Starcraft2 games are going to be played online--on battle.net. THAT copy protection will still be in place and extremely (if not entirely) effective. Also, that's not to mention that activating on multiple computers (or while one computer is playing on battlenet) is probably going to disable the license code (Ala windows 7) and I'm sure they'll crack down on "[k]racks" with every update--probably even requiring a valid code for every update as well. This is akin to EA saying "yeah, we wont enforce copy protection for Battlefield Bad Company 2... Unless you play online or update" (they never said this, but it's actually the case). Also remember that for starcraft 1, you didn't even need to activate the product before you used it (though when playing online, it'd invalidate duplicated codes).

So yeah, they're saying they're allowing more freedom to get more press (mission accomplished). More freedom than what exactly?? There are some games that require you to be connected all the time, but those are typically games that are mostly single player. It's very easy for makers of an almost entirely multiplayer game like SC2 to say "oh yeah, single player mode can be pirated. We're sooo much cooler than those other meanie developers" with a big ****-eating grin on their faces, knowing that most people aren't going to play the single player much, and when they delve online, they're going to be banned immediately unless they pay for the game.

[PenguinMac]

My god you people are brainwashed. Downloading copyrighted material is not theft, it's copyright infringement. A civil offense, not a criminal offense. You cannot 'steal' something that is infinite.

Copyright infringement is copying someone else's work as your own. Theft is downloading a ripped DVD movie, SD or Blu-ray, that was illegally placed in an internet newsgroup with the sole purpose of watching the movie without paying for it. The copyright owner did not place that movie on the internet, and you can't braninwash yourself into thinking it's anything but stealing. And it is illegal, and punishable by jail time or fine if the authorities so desired to prosecute (which luckily they don't).

And no, it has nothing to do with the new Mac Pro, which I'm still waiting for, Blu-ray or no Blu-ray!

[jjahshik32]

IMHO ever since youtube has come, people steal ALL THE TIME.

[Deepshade]

OT - copyright etc etc

please start another thread

[Icaras]

IMHO ever since youtube has come, people steal ALL THE TIME.

Talk about hopping on the bandwagon.

OT - copyright etc etc

please start another thread

Ah, who cares. The Mac Pro is never coming out this year anyway...:rolleyes:

[jjahshik32]

I cant wait for the new mac pro, I'm probably going to get the lowest end 12 core model if its reasonable in the GHz department unlike the 2.26GHz was or is.

[Umbongo]

I cant wait for the new mac pro, I'm probably going to get the lowest end 12 core model if its reasonable in the GHz department unlike the 2.26GHz was or is.

Any 12 core model will start at 2.66GHz.

[Techhie]

I swear, if it's not the tired old BD argument, it's copyright infringement. And here I was thinking today I would come in to find an educated discussion regarding the actual topic of this thread :rolleyes:

[fearoftigers]

I'm getting tired of waiting, I really need a computer.

What could I get that would be comparable performance wise with the 27" i7Mac, 16gb I had (it was great but died after 2 weeks.)

I run Logic in 64 bit. Is the current quad core MP going to be as fast as the imac? And why is the memory so much more expensive?

Anyone care to spec it out. Budget is circa £3000 but could be pushed a bit.

[TennisandMusic]

I'm getting tired of waiting, I really need a computer.

What could I get that would be comparable performance wise with the 27" i7Mac, 16gb I had (it was great but died after 2 weeks.)

I run Logic in 64 bit. Is the current quad core MP going to be as fast as the imac? And why is the memory so much more expensive?

Anyone care to spec it out. Budget is circa £3000 but could be pushed a bit.

Actually the current quad core MP would not be as fast as the quad core iMac's, unless you got the faster, much more expensive versions. The lynnfield chips in the iMac's have very aggressive turbo modes that bring the performance above the Mac Pro's.

The memory is so much more because it's ECC ram, which is not really something you even need.

[fearoftigers]

Actually the current quad core MP would not be as fast as the quad core iMac's, unless you got the faster, much more expensive versions. The lynnfield chips in the iMac's have very aggressive turbo modes that bring the performance above the Mac Pro's.

The memory is so much more because it's ECC ram, which is not really something you even need.

What if I went for the fastest quad then? 3.3 GHz I think.

[Dr.Pants]

What if I went for the fastest quad then? 3.3 GHz I think.

Overpriced. Hit it up with 2.93, call it a day. Unless you think that extra cash is justified spent on processing speed. If you spend all your £ on processing speed you'll be a bit disappointed; invest in memory or HDs or the like.

Also, buying memory third-party is a pretty good idea, along with hard drives.

[fearoftigers]

Overpriced. Hit it up with 2.93, call it a day. Unless you think that extra cash is justified spent on processing speed. If you spend all your £ on processing speed you'll be a bit disappointed; invest in memory or HDs or the like.

Also, buying memory third-party is a pretty good idea, along with hard drives.

So for me this is a screaming reason why Apple need to bring out and updated Mac Pro as compared to the iMac, they're just terrible value.

[Icaras]

Overpriced. Hit it up with 2.93, call it a day. Unless you think that extra cash is justified spent on processing speed. If you spend all your £ on processing speed you'll be a bit disappointed; invest in memory or HDs or the like.

Also, buying memory third-party is a pretty good idea, along with hard drives.

Agreed and...

So for me this is a screaming reason why Apple need to bring out and updated Mac Pro as compared to the iMac, they're just terrible value.

...Agreed.

[apolloa]

Actually..

I got pulled over once on the highway. When the officer asked why I was spending, I told him I was going with the flow of traffic, which was true. He let me off :D

So it was kind of a "everyone else is doing it" situation.

But if you were caught on your own it wouldn't have worked, or a traffic camera caught you.
And sorry for the comments but when someone just states it's fine to steal it winds me up.

So for me this is a screaming reason why Apple need to bring out and updated Mac Pro as compared to the iMac, they're just terrible value.

Well the imac will get a refresh too this year, just CPU and GPU I would imagine but you could get that? I still think we will see a new Mac Pro case with the new chips silently launched around WWDC time.

[TennisandMusic]

What if I went for the fastest quad then? 3.3 GHz I think.

Yeah that would outperform even the i7 quad iMac's, but man, you are paying a premium for that. :-)

But as I had a very very negative experience with the current iMac's, I can't really blame you.

[fearoftigers]

Overpriced. Hit it up with 2.93, call it a day. Unless you think that extra cash is justified spent on processing speed. If you spend all your £ on processing speed you'll be a bit disappointed; invest in memory or HDs or the like.

Also, buying memory third-party is a pretty good idea, along with hard drives.

So would the 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon be faster than an i7 iMac?

Does it do hyperthreading and all that schizzle?

[Umbongo]

So would the 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon be faster than an i7 iMac?

Does it do hyperthreading and all that schizzle?

While the iMac can turboboost higher than the 2.93GHz processor used in the Mac Pro when one or two cores are in use overall the Mac Pro processor is faster. Yes it does hyperthreading and of course supports triple channel memory. Really looking at the processor differences between the quad cores used in the iMac and the 2.66 and 2.93 in the Mac Pro don't make much difference. Certainly not something to buy one system over the other for.

[xgman]

I think if there is no mention of a new MP at WWDC, there will be a great deal of unhappy campers here. To some extent I feel stuck, since I am invested in the OSX and related software more so than any windows programs I use. I will resist abandoning OSX until it becomes clear that MP is at the end of the line, which i do feel will eventually come the way things are progressing. I do think other Apple Mac customers will start to migrate away if June comes and goes with no Mac pro. Maybe Apple doesn't care if they do at this point.

[parakiet]

i don't feel happy anymore

the 2009 model was "expected" at this event too.. didn't show up..
the buyers guide flashed red than too!

[bzollinger]

No word on the 2010 Mac Pro?? WTF Apple??:mad:

[fearoftigers]

No word on the 2010 Mac Pro?? WTF Apple??:mad:

What are you reacting to? Was there supposed to be an announcenment today?

[ValSalva]

What are you reacting to? Was there supposed to be an announcenment today?

I think it's another Tuesday without a new Mac Pro thing. I would have been surprised if Apple did any releases on this Tuesday because of the US holiday yesterday. I don't see any mentions of new products at the All Things Digital conference which is tomorrow. I say wait until WWDC.

[nanofrog]

So would the 2.93GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon be faster than an i7 iMac?

Does it do hyperthreading and all that schizzle?
For your usage, the real difference between the iMac and MP, is the upgradability (PCIe slots, HDD bays, optical bays,...) + NO monitor vs. an AIO with a 27" screen that's difficult to upgrade (RAM is possible, but drives, though possible internally, will void the warranty).

As per Logic Studio, add enough RAM and an SSD (would load your libraries faster than mechanical = very noticeable).

SSD would be limited via FW800 and worse on USB, so external enclosure methods are out with an iMac, so it would have to be done internally (eSATA would suffice, but alas, doesn't exist in Apple's offerings at all).

What are you reacting to? Was there supposed to be an announcement today?
I suspect it's the fact that today is another Tuesday, and nothing's happened with the MP's. :eek: :rolleyes: :p

EDIT: ValSalva beat me to it, as I took a bit longer to hit the Submit button. :D

[xgman]

I'm not holding out much hope for WWDC. Not one single credible leak for wwdc or any other date in the near future from what I can tell.

[Icaras]

I'm not holding out much hope for WWDC. Not one single credible leak for wwdc or any other date in the near future from what I can tell.

Yea, only Shaw Wu to go off of. Add another fail to his list.

[macuserx86]

so... how magical are we talking here?

[xgman]

Yea, only Shaw Wu to go off of. Add another fail to his list.

Yes, and all he was admittedly doing is speculating just like the rest of us. No real "intel" (no pun intended) of any sort.

[Icaras]

so... how magical are we talking here?

As magical as your icon lol :D

[Nostromo]

This must be a big hat to pull a new Mac Pro out of.

[bzollinger]

I'm not holding out much hope for WWDC. Not one single credible leak for wwdc or any other date in the near future from what I can tell.

This is pretty much what I was reacting to, that and another Tuesday has passed.

I still have hope for next week though!

[mism]

I'm curious as to why Jobs is giving the keynote, after the whole lost iPhone debacle you'd be forgiven for thinking he'd keep his head down, surely that was going to be the boom / magical moment?
So, based on nothing more than that, I'm hoping he has something else to announce, something that isn't iDevice or cloud TV or lala related. That said I can't imagine a pro machine ever being a 'one more thing' again.

In all seriousness I just want some news, even if its a rough time frame like early summer or fall. Early summer I'll wait, fall I'll buy now. People need to make decisions, this is about work, not a toy.

[xgman]

I'm curious as to why Jobs is giving the keynote, after the whole lost iPhone debacle you'd be forgiven for thinking he'd keep his head down, surely that was going to be the boom / magical moment?

If only he had a sense of humor. Imagine the Saturday Night Live style skit that they could concoct about this during the keynote, complete with a set containing a bar and Jason Chen with a bag of parts.

[Pressure]

I'm curious as to why Jobs is giving the keynote, after the whole lost iPhone debacle you'd be forgiven for thinking he'd keep his head down, surely that was going to be the boom / magical moment?
So, based on nothing more than that, I'm hoping he has something else to announce, something that isn't iDevice or cloud TV or lala related. That said I can't imagine a pro machine ever being a 'one more thing' again.

In all seriousness I just want some news, even if its a rough time frame like early summer or fall. Early summer I'll wait, fall I'll buy now. People need to make decisions, this is about work, not a toy.

Remember that new server farm they have gotten?

MobileMe is probably going to be free and a good alternative to anything Google.

He could announce the new Final Cut Studio and many other things more interesting than the iPhone.

[nanofrog]

I'm curious as to why Jobs is giving the keynote, after the whole lost iPhone debacle you'd be forgiven for thinking he'd keep his head down, surely that was going to be the boom / magical moment?
Though purely opinion, I'm not sure his ego would allow him to sit it out if there's no other issues preventing him from taking the stage (i.e. health related).

In all seriousness I just want some news, even if its a rough time frame like early summer or fall. Early summer I'll wait, fall I'll buy now. People need to make decisions, this is about work, not a toy.
Unfortunately, unlike the rest of the enterprise system providers, Apple doesn't have a history of issuing information prior to release for planning purposes (save of course, the typical formal announcement, followed at some not too distant release date, which is technically prior to release).

[Pachang]

from Hardmac:



Blizzard Entertainment just made a very disruptive announcement for all game developers and publishers that spend so much time creating complicated protection to prevent people (most of the time unsuccessfully) from pirating the programs sold. The criticize mostly restricting DRM systems like the ones developed by Ubisoft that prevent people from playing if they are not constantly connected to the Internet.

There will no such thing for Starcraft II. The game will require an internet connexion to activate the game and register the player on Battle.net, and it will be then possible to play the base game without being connected.
For them, the battle for new protections is always lost even before starting. There are too many people willing to break those protections, way more than developers creating them and so they never stay for long.
Blizzard decided to focus on the content of the game itself rather than spending too much energy protecting it.

Blizzard will also not be including the ability to play over LAN in starcraft II.
This is to the great inconvenience of anyone who bought the game legitimately.
This is entirely to make sure that anyone playing multiplayer is playing it through their servers and has bought a copy of the game.
Blizzard are full of it. Ever since they made WoW they went from being the apple of computer games to being the Dell.

[craigcomposer]

Not sure exactley if this could be a new mac pro prototype or what, but its worth looking at to assess the massive potential of a 12 core machine:

http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/238141

[Pressure]

Not sure exactley if this could be a new mac pro prototype or what, but its worth looking at to assess the massive potential of a 12 core machine:

http://browse.geekbench.ca/geekbench2/view/238141

For starters the processor ID is for the Six-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 2425 H.

And lastly, that server contains 16 Exabytes of RAM!

It has absolutely nothing to do with the next Mac Pro.

[rnb2]

For your usage, the real difference between the iMac and MP, is the upgradability (PCIe slots, HDD bays, optical bays,...) + NO monitor vs. an AIO with a 27" screen that's difficult to upgrade (RAM is possible, but drives, though possible internally, will void the warranty).

As per Logic Studio, add enough RAM and an SSD (would load your libraries faster than mechanical = very noticeable).

SSD would be limited via FW800 and worse on USB, so external enclosure methods are out with an iMac, so it would have to be done internally (eSATA would suffice, but alas, doesn't exist in Apple's offerings at all).

I won't dispute the expandability angle, but an SSD in a FW800 enclosure actually works very well on a 27" iMac. I tried it out on my 1st-gen Mac Pro before going with the iMac, and it worked fine. I do a SuperDuper backup to a ~50GB partition on the internal drive every afternoon, just to be safe, but I've been very pleased with performance over the last 3 months.

Startup times are much longer than with an internal SSD, but if used for the OS and Applications, the lack of latency and seek time still gives noticeably better performance than an internal platter-based HD. The OS and Applications don't really demand much in the way of sustained transfer rate, so the difference isn't nearly as dramatic as you'd imagine.

[parakiet]

I won't dispute the expandability angle, but an SSD in a FW800 enclosure actually works very well on a 27" iMac. I tried it out on my 1st-gen Mac Pro before going with the iMac, and it worked fine. I do a SuperDuper backup to a ~50GB partition on the internal drive every afternoon, just to be safe, but I've been very pleased with performance over the last 3 months.

Startup times are much longer than with an internal SSD, but if used for the OS and Applications, the lack of latency and seek time still gives noticeably better performance than an internal platter-based HD. The OS and Applications don't really demand much in the way of sustained transfer rate, so the difference isn't nearly as dramatic as you'd imagine.

boot from external ssd in FW800 enclosure works faster than the internal HDD ?!?

[Icaras]

I won't dispute the expandability angle, but an SSD in a FW800 enclosure actually works very well on a 27" iMac. I tried it out on my 1st-gen Mac Pro before going with the iMac, and it worked fine. I do a SuperDuper backup to a ~50GB partition on the internal drive every afternoon, just to be safe, but I've been very pleased with performance over the last 3 months.

Startup times are much longer than with an internal SSD, but if used for the OS and Applications, the lack of latency and seek time still gives noticeably better performance than an internal platter-based HD. The OS and Applications don't really demand much in the way of sustained transfer rate, so the difference isn't nearly as dramatic as you'd imagine.

I do not believe you for a second. I'll wait until someone puts your claims to an end with some statistical data.

Edit: Ah hell, found it myself:

Firewire 800: 100MB/sec

And Sata II of course goes 3 megabit/sec

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[johnnymg]

Yea, only Shaw Wu to go off of. Add another fail to his list.

People in the know call him Shu Wrong.

[tekboi]

screw 'magical'.




Just give me something worth dropping $3,000+ on. Because right now, I don't see anything.

[nanofrog]

I won't dispute the expandability angle, but an SSD in a FW800 enclosure actually works very well on a 27" iMac. I tried it out on my 1st-gen Mac Pro before going with the iMac, and it worked fine. I do a SuperDuper backup to a ~50GB partition on the internal drive every afternoon, just to be safe, but I've been very pleased with performance over the last 3 months.
What?!?!?

FW800 is 100MB/s.
SATA/eSATA can handle 270MB/s real world (375MB/s theoretical limit)

Now consider the faster SSD's can sustain ~250MB/s (Intel's 80GB and 160GB G2 series). There's no way FW800 can handle that. It's a technical impossibility.

For random access performance, an SSD would fare well enough on FW800, as that's more likely to hover in the 60MB/s or so range (value from 160GB Intel). But but not sustained transfer rates.

If the SSD you have works fine on FW800 under sustained conditions, it's a slower model (i.e. sustained reads in the 100 - 110MB/s range at most, and you can actually throttle a bit with this).

And Sata II of course goes 3 megabit/sec

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
See above. ;)

[Tonytownsend]

Not one word at D8 about Pro level apps or computers
there are one of two things that are going to happen
No Mac pro at wwdc and people are going to be mad switch to pc or buy 8 core

Or

They are going to annouce at the end of june when these processors are available and a new mac pro. If not by the end of june the E....N.....D is near
Its funny I had a dream last night I woke up and saw a new mac pro on apples site.
I will wait till the end of june. I can freeaze tracks and work more with what i have. but I am losing faith in Apple. We are a very small percent of people. I hope they dont screw us.

[J the Ninja]

When we were an agrarian nation, all cars were trucks because that's what you needed on the farms. But cars eventually became more prevalent is people moved to cities. PCs will be like trucks...they are still going to be around, but there is a transformation coming, and it will make some people uneasy. Is it the iPad? Who knows? Will it be next year or five years from now?

You really shouldn't have been expecting more than that^ I think we'll be ok.

[Aldaris]

I'm pretty sure they arevwaiting on intel...

Apple is always waiting for someone... AT&T, intel... IBM a few years back.

Maybe that's why apple decided it needed to go with A4... what's next?

[nanofrog]

I'm pretty sure they arevwaiting on intel...
For what though?

The Gulftown based Xeons are out, and are shipping from other vendors. :confused:

Thinking in terms of the mention of new products not yet released (very recent front page article), combined with no indication of a significant hiring spree for developers (not from what I've seen, and have looked from time to time), it appears to me more of a logistics problem. Too many products to develop by too few people, which results in product delays.

[Umbongo]

For what though?

The Gulftown based Xeons are out, and are shipping from other vendors. :confused:


In what quantity though. Or maybe it's about getting deals by waiting, or maybe they just wanted to wait for WWDC. Apple seem to have no qualms about waiting to release things when they feel it'll be right.

[nanofrog]

In what quantity though.
Dell provides them as a CTO system (Precision T5500), and the order to ship time = 1 week according to the web site configuration order tool (US site). And I checked with all of the 56xx parts, Quad or Hex.

As a typical lead time for the processors is 13 weeks, they apparently have plenty of stock on hand. :eek: :D

Or maybe it's about getting deals by waiting, or maybe they just wanted to wait for WWDC. Apple seem to have no qualms about waiting to release things when they feel it'll be right.
Waiting for a better deal from Intel (unless they expect the quantities to be so low they went to the distributor channel instead, which is much more volatile, but sells lower quantities), would be counter productive in terms of competing with other vendors.

Waiting on WWDC, is possible, but IIRC, there was an article on the front page some time back that Apple wanted to get away from dedicated release dates due to event schedules, such as WWDC. Obviously they're still willing to utilize such events for marketing purposes, so who knows if this truly has any bearing or not (I can see coincedence however; delays reached a point that the release would be rather close to a large event, that Apple did decide to utilize it).

It's just the mention of "new yet unreleased products" makes the most sense to me as the primary culprit for the delay. Even over a possible switch to how they obtain the CPU's (this is assuming the actual sales numbers haven't sunk so low as to force such a change).

[Umbongo]

Dell provides them as a CTO system (Precision T5500), and the order to ship time = 1 week according to the web site configuration order tool (US site). And I checked with all of the 56xx parts, Quad or Hex.

As a typical lead time for the processors is 13 weeks, they apparently have plenty of stock on hand. :eek: :D

Waiting for a better deal from Intel (unless they expect the quantities to be so low they went to the distributor channel instead, which is much more volatile, but sells lower quantities), would be counter productive in terms of competing with other vendors.

I'm really just throwing ideas out there at this point, I raised the same thing about Dell before. I guess the problem here in predicting is there is almost no public information on Xeon sales. A few vague statements here and there and some preface and an article or two when Jon Peddie Research put out a new report, but even less so relating to Apple. We don't know if they sell 10,000 or 100,000 Mac Pro's a year.

Waiting on WWDC, is possible, but IIRC, there was an article on the front page some time back that Apple wanted to get away from dedicated release dates due to event schedules, such as WWDC. Obviously they're still willing to utilize such events for marketing purposes, so who knows if this truly has any bearing or not (I can see coincedence however; delays reached a point that the release would be rather close to a large event, that Apple did decide to utilize it).

Yeah that's how I see it. Releasing a week before 2008 Macworld, but waiting for around WWDC 2007 and at 2006 show us that basically that Apple logic doesn't make sense without knowing way more than we do. I think they event thing was more them not having control over Macworld, I mean they set the date of WWDC after all.

It's just the mention of "new yet unreleased products" makes the most sense to me as the primary culprit for the delay. Even over a possible switch to how they obtain the CPU's (this is assuming the actual sales numbers haven't sunk so low as to force such a change).

In the end I doubt we will know. If it comes out next week then it is likely strategy, but as we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, what enginerring resources they have and how much work is required or what those who get input require (let's not forget some are using the Mac Pro and Xserves to generate large income and also in critical systems.

They also have the Apple way of releasing products which no other company seems to use. Apple seem happy to wait and rely on the brand to carry them through quarter after quarter rather than releasing and responding quickly to the competition. They probably don't consider the launch time late if they are making the same sort of profits regardless.

[nanofrog]

I'm really just throwing ideas out there at this point, I raised the same thing about Dell before. I guess the problem here in predicting is there is almost no public information on Xeon sales. A few vague statements here and there and some preface and an article or two when Jon Peddie Research put out a new report, but even less so relating to Apple. We don't know if they sell 10,000 or 100,000 Mac Pro's a year.
You're definitely right on the sales figures of Xeon's, particularly those by Apple. That's why I actually mentioned the distributor channel as a possibility vs. direct from Intel (which requires volume; i.e. volume counted in trays and/or lots).

Yeah that's how I see it. Releasing a week before 2008 Macworld, but waiting for around WWDC 2007 and at 2006 show us that basically that Apple logic doesn't make sense without knowing way more than we do. I think they event thing was more them not having control over Macworld, I mean they set the date of WWDC after all.
I seem to recall that the argument for the change was so they didn't feel forced/obligated to release products on schedules they may not have had full control over.

But underneath that, I also see it as a way to extend development time. The mention of new products (i.e. iPad which as now released), would explain why that additional time is needed.

Another solution of course, is to obtain additional personnel, but that apparently hasn't happened in sufficient quantities. There's pros and cons, but I see the cons out-weighing the pros of keeping the workforce at/about the size it's been for the last few years or so. And I'm wondering if web based products are included in that statement as well, going by the All Things D conference information currently on the front page.

In the end I doubt we will know. If it comes out next week then it is likely strategy, but as we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, what engineering resources they have and how much work is required or what those who get input require (let's not forget some are using the Mac Pro and Xserves to generate large income and also in critical systems.
No, we don't know, nor will it likely ever be. Apple takes their secrecy very seriously.

But there is enough information out that we can make a fairly accurate appraisal of the situation IMO (they're still an electronics company that relies on both human and technological resources - their own as well as others -, as well as the relationship that exists when products are OEM/ODM supplied).

They also have the Apple way of releasing products which no other company seems to use. Apple seem happy to wait and rely on the brand to carry them through quarter after quarter rather than releasing and responding quickly to the competition. They probably don't consider the launch time late if they are making the same sort of profits regardless.
Definitely. They do like to depend on the Brand to sell the products, but in the enterprise market, I can't help but see that as not only a mistake, but a bit arrogant. That market requires the vendor to respond according to need, not what Apple thinks they need, and dictates it.

Unfortunately, this seems to be hurting those who are highly invested in the OS X platform with the recent lack of information, and lowered value perception with the '09 MP and XServe systems (and some expectation of this carrying over). :(

[Deepshade]

3 ways of looking at it.

1 - Apple are just waiting to drop in sufficient volumes of 6 core processors (AFAIK the current systems just need some code updates - OK simplified but there you go) Could happen any time...

But....

2 - Apple know that making the G5 PPC userbase obsolete is going to push sales up to and beyond the 16 June (or whenever the exact date of official obsolescence is).

That could mean waiting at least till July. More if Apple have any other reason to clear stock.

3 - Apple don't have a need to 'keep up with the Jones'. They see the current systems having at least another six months shelf life while the gizmo profits pile in, and THEN they look at new architecture. By then they'll be ready with FCP update and it'll be Pro spotlight time.

My biggest concern on any advance in the MP line is the fact there have been so many other tech leaks from Apple and there's not a been a jot on the MP to date.

[xgman]

If Apple was really trying to clear stock I would have though of at least some specials or something, and yes the lack of any real rumors of a release is odd considering how protective Apple is of some of it's other toys that are far more likely to be copied and dissected. I'm not sure we will ever know why this is taking so long, but I would bet on Apple's priorities mixed in with certain parts availability. Apple must have gotten wind of at least some of the disappointment from the pro's over this long delay, so I would have thought that even a slight pre-release announcement with availability to follow sometime later would have served them better than silence.

[mism]

My biggest concern on any advance in the MP line is the fact there have been so many other tech leaks from Apple and there's not a been a jot on the MP to date.

I wonder whether that's because the Mac Pro just isn't 'sexy' to a lot of people. The gadget blogs want pictures of iPhone parts and prototypes and they've not been let down by the now numerous iPhone leaks. Add to that the possibility / probability that the Mac Pro case won't change and a leak must look pretty boring to your average tech blog reader.
Nevertheless it is worryingly quiet, I guess if the information is out there, boring or not it would have been posted here or elsewhere.

[tomscott1988]

If you ask me as a professional, I shoot probably 5000-10,000 (after editing the bad ones) images a month. After editing say 10% of these images will be used for editorial or sold they will be around 50-200mb each. So in 12 months i use around 2TB of space. Add that to the 5 years i have been a professional photographer that would be 10TB and then having a backup array. This cost mounts! If you have a serge or an electrical storm you can say bye bye to all electronic storage. Hence the reason that disc storage will never be overlooked especially for a professional.
Backing up every project is second nature to all professionals. If i shoot 25gbs on a shoot BR gives me the perfect media to back up, DVD's on the other hand i will be sat for hours having to name discs and numbering so i know exactly where the rest of the shoot is.
A blu ray player in my mac pro is an essential and i understand why apple have not added one, as it has been countlessly argued here. But i purchased a pretty standard drive from PC world of all places and the drive was £160 and slotted in nicely and the computer sleeps, doesnt randomly read from the drive (typical problems people have had) and works with toast. So that is my piece of mind. It also paid for itself within one shoot.
The amount of people in this thread that are willing to spend this amount of money on a product you will earn no money from is obserd! 6K with no come back!!!? Do you have more money than sense??? and before i get all the h8 im sure there are plenty pros out there in the thread. But im just trying to add a perspective from a professional point of view, the actual use of disc media is not just to carry documents or view video but to create a fail safe. Thats why blu ray for the professional will not disapere!
On another note!!! is it just me? but i am not willing to send all my files to a service on the web, because A. what happens if this company goes bust? B. there servers fail, C. it would cost me a fortune, i am old fashioned in my views but i dont trust these online storage companys as a full proof way of saving my data, which is so valuable to me and my clients. Plus i cant see 10TB being offered! and at current upload speed i would probaly have to wait 2 years to put that much data on one! it is not an ideal solution.

[ValSalva]

I wonder whether that's because the Mac Pro just isn't 'sexy' to a lot of people. The gadget blogs want pictures of iPhone parts and prototypes and they've not been let down by the now numerous iPhone leaks.

There is a lot of merit to this argument. The Gizmodos of the world are not going to get the page views for a picture of a new Mac Pro motherboard that they'd get for an new iPhone bezel. I think the greater public may not even know that the Mac Pro even exists, let alone care about it.

[Phantom Gremlin]

You're definitely right on the sales figures of Xeon's, particularly those by Apple. That's why I actually mentioned the distributor channel as a possibility vs. direct from Intel (which requires volume; i.e. volume counted in trays and/or lots).

No, I don't believe that as a possibility.

Apple is one of Intel's biggest customers. There's no way that Apple would go thru distribution for the Xeon chips. I don't care if they're only buying them 5 at a time, they're buying them direct. Just IMO.

[nanofrog]

No, I don't believe that as a possibility.

Apple is one of Intel's biggest customers. There's no way that Apple would go thru distribution for the Xeon chips. I don't care if they're only buying them 5 at a time, they're buying them direct. Just IMO.
Direct sales are only done with high quantities though.

We just don't know the exact sales figures for the MP and XServe systems, and it's hard to be absolutely certain as to whether or not such a shift has occured. I don't actually think Apple's had to switch to a distributor channel for parts, but it's possible if the '09 MP and XServe systems took a significant nose dive due to the pricing (as the next system model will be based on it's design and pricing, so the sales figures would be in line as well).

[fearoftigers]

I wonder whether that's because the Mac Pro just isn't 'sexy' to a lot of people. The gadget blogs want pictures of iPhone parts and prototypes and they've not been let down by the now numerous iPhone leaks. Add to that the possibility / probability that the Mac Pro case won't change and a leak must look pretty boring to your average tech blog reader.
Nevertheless it is worryingly quiet, I guess if the information is out there, boring or not it would have been posted here or elsewhere.

I agree.

I'd also say that what with the iphone leak and I believe an employee got sacked for demoing an ipad hours before the official release time, Apple is on lock down at the moment.

I seem to be seeing a lot of offers on Mac Pros so maybe that is an indicatior that something is on the way?

[rajbonham]

I agree.

I'd also say that what with the iphone leak and I believe an employee got sacked for demoing an ipad hours before the official release time, Apple is on lock down at the moment.

I seem to be seeing a lot of offers on Mac Pros so maybe that is an indicatior that something is on the way?

Where are you seeing these offers? I've been checking places like Amazon, and they have had the exact same amount of Mac Pros in stock for the past 2 months. The prices have remained unchanged as well. Othe stores, such as Best Buy still have Mac Pros available for immediate shipping...

I'm still holding out for WWDC though.

[Icaras]

Where are you seeing these offers? I've been checking places like Amazon, and they have had the exact same amount of Mac Pros in stock for the past 2 months. The prices have remained unchanged as well. Othe stores, such as Best Buy still have Mac Pros available for immediate shipping...

I'm still holding out for WWDC though.

I'm wondering this too.

[xgman]

Gizmodo's take from today (they are more optimistic than I am):

Will there be a Mac Pro upgrade?

The Mac Pro story is essentially the same as the MacBook Air's: overdue for a refresh, rumors swirling, processor delays—in this case Intel's hexacore Xeon CPUs—resolved. So we'll give it the same odds of happening next week.

Probability: 80%.

[Techhie]

Othe stores, such as Best Buy still have Mac Pros available for immediate shipping...


Probably because even Best Buy shoppers understand how poor the value is :rolleyes:

[rajbonham]

Probably because even Best Buy shoppers understand how poor the value is :rolleyes:

Hahaha, so true.

[jjahshik32]

I always found the name Best Buy funny because its not really a BEST BUY, in most cases WORST BUY.

[Icaras]

Gizmodo's take from today (they are more optimistic than I am):

Will there be a Mac Pro upgrade?

The Mac Pro story is essentially the same as the MacBook Air's: overdue for a refresh, rumors swirling, processor delays—in this case Intel's hexacore Xeon CPUs—resolved. So we'll give it the same odds of happening next week.

Probability: 80%.

Wow...80%, huh? That's pretty damned optimistic.

[costabunny]

Interestingly enough PCWorld Business (UK) has a couple of Mac Pro (single 2.66 models) as 'clearance' (Am guessing they are returned by customers) for £1309 each inc shipping.

maybe they don't want these to hang about (then again they also have 27" iMac dual cores for less than a grand).....

perhaps I am just hoping here..... :)

[milbournosphere]

Usb 3.0?!

Given that Intel has held back the USB3.0 chipset until 2012, I doubt it. I think a more realistic alternative might be the introduction of lightpeak. We all know that apple has been involved in the tech (Intel even did their first presentation on a modified mac pro!), and I think that WWDC would be a great platform to announce a new bus such as this, especially given that Intel seems to have targeted 2010 to get the manufacturing going on the new tech.

Sources:
-BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8272003.stm)
-Intel (http://techresearch.intel.com/articles/None/1813.htm)
Note that the intel site has some good videos.

Anyways, that's my $.02, and my wishlist for the refreshed Mac Pro line.

[xgman]

Well Mac Minis gets a rumor today, so what do we get . . . . nothin. :(

[rajbonham]

User Stetrain posted this in the Gizmodo comments. I'm not so sure about the Verizon/Sprint portion and feel free to reorder the numbers, but this DEFINITELY makes the most sense IMO.



Here's my generic-enough-it-could-really-happen keynote prediction:

1) Sales numbers and figures for iPhone, iPad, etc.

2) Some Mac hardware refreshes. WWDC2009 showed that they're capable of doing both Mac and iPhone stuff in one keynote.

3) OS 4.0: Developers, developers, developers. Scott Forstall. Business management apps. Hopefully a look at OS 4.0 on the iPad.

4) New iPhone hardware. This is the focal point for Apple so it goes in the last third of the keynote.

5?) One more thing: iPad coming to Sprint and Verizon. Probably no actual talk about the iPhone, but moving the iPad cross-carrier would be a pretty good implication.



It makes more sense than, "Apple is only dedicated to the iPhone OS anymore!!". Give me a break, Apple just updated the MacBook Pro and Macbook. :rolleyes:

[xgman]

What wispers?

"We've also heard whispers that Apple could be readying the new Mac Pros very soon."

[Vylen]

What wispers?

"We've also heard whispers that Apple could be readying the new Mac Pros very soon."

Whispers like the ones on the island in Lost. Really creepy and annoying since they come up when walking alone in a jungle.

Sorry, couldn't help myself :D

[fearoftigers]

Well lots of rumours this week guys.

It's ironic, just as it looks like we might be seeing a new Mac Pro, all the speculative threads dry up.

So close...yet so far away! Could it be this Tuesday?

[strausd]

Well lots of rumours this week guys.

It's ironic, just as it looks like we might be seeing a new Mac Pro, all the speculative threads dry up.

So close...yet so far away! Could it be this Tuesday?

Sean Dempsey sure thinks so ;)

[Roman23]

A BIG FAT NO!!! I don't think it will be this tuesday coming up... I am willing to put a wager on it.. care to bet $100.00 that it won't?

I am game!!


Well lots of rumours this week guys.

It's ironic, just as it looks like we might be seeing a new Mac Pro, all the speculative threads dry up.

So close...yet so far away! Could it be this Tuesday?

take sean's word for it, how about a $100.00 bet... and if I lose, i pay you $100.00, if I win, then you will owe me $100.00

care to wager? I bet $100.00 that no mac pro will come on Tuesday the 25th.


Sean Dempsey sure thinks so ;)

[showtimemh]

take sean's word for it, how about a $100.00 bet... and if I lose, i pay you $100.00, if I win, then you will owe me $100.00

care to wager? I bet $100.00 that no mac pro will come on Tuesday the 25th.


The 25th...
I see what you did there.

[Roman23]

All I am doing is entering in a wager that the 25th will yield no mac pro... and my promise was to pay the individual who wins, and if I win, they have to pay me.. fair enough though.

But, I know I am going to win because I am really starting to think Apple may not have any interest in the mac pro at least not now.


The 25th...
I see what you did there.

[BobD2]

The next time Tuesday is the 25th of the month is Jan., 2011. It seems likely that there will be a new Mac Pro by then.

take sean's word for it, how about a $100.00 bet... and if I lose, i pay you $100.00, if I win, then you will owe me $100.00

care to wager? I bet $100.00 that no mac pro will come on Tuesday the 25th.

[Roman23]

maybe, maybe not.. who knows?? I am not a rumor spreader.. i prefer cold, hard evidence and proof.. not open ended air..


The next time Tuesday is the 25th of the month is Jan., 2011. It seems likely that there will be a new Mac Pro by then.

[strausd]

maybe, maybe not.. who knows?? I am not a rumor spreader.. i prefer cold, hard evidence and proof.. not open ended air..

Then why do you take so much interest in a Mac specific RUMOR site? And you should know by now that pretty much anything involving Apple is a rumor, never any cold hard evidence.

[Nostromo]

Then why do you take so much interest in a Mac specific RUMOR site? And you should know by now that pretty much anything involving Apple is a rumor, never any cold hard evidence.

Maybe he'd prefer a cold, hard rumor?

[Tutor]

Clean up

[slughead]

"We at Apple have heard your griping on macrumors well-intended suggestions and you know (I really doubt that you can discern the truth) we really value the fact that you'll spend 3 grand or more for whatever old crap next generation technological wonders we hawk design especially for you. So without any further ado we can positively state that it's just not going to be magical - It is magical - $2500 MSRP* for the fastest and most powerful Mac ever, sporting next-generation Intel architecture (you must believe it because I said it) and now the ability to make the system play by your rules - yes, we have now given you ingrates the ability to overclock the CPU, QPI and memory (pictures below prove it (Don't they? We can't bear to have another darn reception/perception glitch)) for optimal performance Hah! because we really value the Mac Pro purchasers (let's wait the longer of 3 years or the introduction of our iFood, iSex, iHigh, iSpouse, iChildren, iHome, iCar, iPlane, iEnergy, iAmerica, iGreen, iSick, iAin'tGotNoJob and iBroke product lines before the next refresh). N.B. Maya software render of ocean frame took a mere 2 seconds. We hope that his announcement puts an end to wild speculation and flimsy rumors because now you have, of course, hard evidence."

You be the judge - what's true and what's false?

* Some assembly required.


nice.

[Gloor]

So guys,

what do you think we are waiting for? Enough supply from intel? or something else?

Do you think we will have 6 core as base and 12 core as an option like we do have now with 4 or 8?

What else except graphic cards do you think we might get realistically ?

Any other reason Apple is waiting?

[Umbongo]

So guys,

what do you think we are waiting for? Enough supply from intel? or something else?

Do you think we will have 6 core as base and 12 core as an option like we do have now with 4 or 8?

What else except graphic cards do you think we might get realistically ?

Any other reason Apple is waiting?

Unless Apple are able to get much better discounts on processors from Intel, or are going to accept a lower margin on their hardware, then 6 core base won't happen. Currently Apple use a $284 processor in their $2,499 system and two $373 processors in their $3,299 system. The cheapest 6 core processors for UP/DP systems currently are $885 and $996.

It seems more likely they will just update to the processors that have replaced what they currently use, which are 133-266 MHz faster for the 3 cheapest options (2.66x4, 2.93x4 and 2.26x8) and have two more cores for the other 3 more expensive options.

They don't really need to change the board design at this point, especially as it'll only last a year and can support the new processors and graphics cards they might use.

[Roman23]

Is not the w3580 somewhere around 1000 dollars? Granted, i only paid 600 for mine, but where are you getting $373 from? Unless you are talking about volume pricing and or wholesale pricing?


The next time Tuesday is the 25th of the month is Jan., 2011. It seems likely that there will be a new Mac Pro by then.

Unless Apple are able to get much better discounts on processors from Intel, or are going to accept a lower margin on their hardware, then 6 core base won't happen. Currently Apple use a $284 processor in their $2,499 system and two $373 processors in their $3,299 system. The cheapest 6 core processors for UP/DP systems currently are $885 and $996.

It seems more likely they will just update to the processors that have replaced what they currently use, which are 133-266 MHz faster for the 3 cheapest options (2.66x4, 2.93x4 and 2.26x8) and have two more cores for the other 3 more expensive options.

They don't really need to change the board design at this point, especially as it'll only last a year and can support the new processors and graphics cards they might use.

[Roman23]

I think this is the 2010 mac pro - nothing more than a simple processor enhancement and no need to change really anything.. I look at this as possibly a transitional model from the older Nehalem to Sandy Bridge(Q4 2011 server only).


It seems more likely they will just update to the processors that have replaced what they currently use, which are 133-266 MHz faster for the 3 cheapest options (2.66x4, 2.93x4 and 2.26x8) and have two more cores for the other 3 more expensive options.

They don't really need to change the board design at this point, especially as it'll only last a year and can support the new processors and graphics cards they might use.[/QUOTE]

[Umbongo]

Is not the w3580 somewhere around 1000 dollars? Granted, i only paid 600 for mine, but where are you getting $373 from? Unless you are talking about volume pricing and or wholesale pricing?

$373 (each) is the price for the processors in the 8 core model.

[Roman23]

So how much would the single w3580 be? I presume a lot lower though? $373 a piece for the 2.93 dual processors isn't a bad deal.. but too bad its only for apple and not noobs like us :)


Unless Apple are able to get much better discounts on processors from Intel, or are going to accept a lower margin on their hardware, then 6 core base won't happen. Currently Apple use a $284 processor in their $2,499 system and two $373 processors in their $3,299 system. The cheapest 6 core processors for UP/DP systems currently are $885 and $996.

It seems more likely they will just update to the processors that have replaced what they currently use, which are 133-266 MHz faster for the 3 cheapest options (2.66x4, 2.93x4 and 2.26x8) and have two more cores for the other 3 more expensive options.

They don't really need to change the board design at this point, especially as it'll only last a year and can support the new processors and graphics cards they might use.

$373 (each) is the price for the processors in the 8 core model.

[Umbongo]

So how much would the single w3580 be? I presume a lot lower though? $373 a piece for the 2.93 dual processors isn't a bad deal.. but too bad its only for apple and not noobs like us :)

I'm talking about base models. The 8 core base is dual 2.26GHz 8 core for $3,299. The processors have a price of $373 each on Intel's price list (http://www.intc.com/common/download/download.cfm?companyid=INTC&fileid=387632&filekey=A519A83C-BF39-4BF3-9E60-F6A50F491DFB&filename=July_18_10_1ku_Price.xls.pdf).

[strausd]

Unless Apple are able to get much better discounts on processors from Intel, or are going to accept a lower margin on their hardware, then 6 core base won't happen. Currently Apple use a $284 processor in their $2,499 system and two $373 processors in their $3,299 system. The cheapest 6 core processors for UP/DP systems currently are $885 and $996.

It seems more likely they will just update to the processors that have replaced what they currently use, which are 133-266 MHz faster for the 3 cheapest options (2.66x4, 2.93x4 and 2.26x8) and have two more cores for the other 3 more expensive options.

They don't really need to change the board design at this point, especially as it'll only last a year and can support the new processors and graphics cards they might use.

You can't base the new MP prices off that. If you look at the price differences between the xeon 5570s and the 5670s, the 5550s and the 5650s, and the 5520s and 5620s, there is hardly any difference between them when they first came out.

Basing the 2010 prices on that is total crap. Sure the components have gone down, but Apple hasn't lowered the prices, they are still selling the Mac Pro as if the CPUs are brand new, that is how they have always done their business.

[Roman23]

Hi, you wrote:

Basing the 2010 prices on that is total crap. Sure the components have gone down, but Apple hasn't lowered the prices, they are still selling the Mac Pro as if the CPUs are brand new, that is how they have always done their business.[/QUOTE]

Thats why Apple is robbing people blind because they are still selling 500+ day equipment at astronomical pricing, though my refub quad-core 2.66 at 2199 was a nice deal though it could have been better..

You actually can't do that.. you can't sell a product that came out well over a year ago and expect to sell it as if it were new.. this doesn't make sense..

But like the Census makes SENSEcus... so does Apple's ways make Apple ways.

[strausd]

Hi, you wrote:

Basing the 2010 prices on that is total crap. Sure the components have gone down, but Apple hasn't lowered the prices, they are still selling the Mac Pro as if the CPUs are brand new, that is how they have always done their business.

Thats why Apple is robbing people blind because they are still selling 500+ day equipment at astronomical pricing, though my refub quad-core 2.66 at 2199 was a nice deal though it could have been better..

You actually can't do that.. you can't sell a product that came out well over a year ago and expect to sell it as if it were new.. this doesn't make sense..

But like the Census makes SENSEcus... so does Apple's ways make Apple ways.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for agreeing with me and not saying the new Mac Pro won't come out til September like you normally do :)

[Umbongo]

You can't base the new MP prices off that. If you look at the price differences between the xeon 5570s and the 5670s, the 5550s and the 5650s, and the 5520s and 5620s, there is hardly any difference between them when they first came out.

Basing the 2010 prices on that is total crap. Sure the components have gone down, but Apple hasn't lowered the prices, they are still selling the Mac Pro as if the CPUs are brand new, that is how they have always done their business.

Sure I can, Xeon CPU pricing doesn't change over it's lifetime. Very few Intel processors do, they tend to just be replaced.

[Gloor]

are you telling me that there will be no 6 core and 12 core models?

I thought that we would get basic 6 core for 2499 and 12 core for 3299.

Do you really think that is highly unlikely? I've just put my Mac Pro on ebay hoping for 12 core base model for 3299 as it would really speed up my rendering

[Roman23]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-Mac-Pro-3-GHz-2x-Dual-Core-Intel-Xeon-3-/170518570378?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Apple_Desktops&hash=item27b3b2e58a


You can't base the new MP prices off that. If you look at the price differences between the xeon 5570s and the 5670s, the 5550s and the 5650s, and the 5520s and 5620s, there is hardly any difference between them when they first came out.

Basing the 2010 prices on that is total crap. Sure the components have gone down, but Apple hasn't lowered the prices, they are still selling the Mac Pro as if the CPUs are brand new, that is how they have always done their business.

are you telling me that there will be no 6 core and 12 core models?

I thought that we would get basic 6 core for 2499 and 12 core for 3299.

Do you really think that is highly unlikely? I've just put my Mac Pro on ebay hoping for 12 core base model for 3299 as it would really speed up my rendering

[macpro2000]

I think it's time for a new case externally....2003...come on!

[Gloor]

no its not :)) I'm in UK :)

anyway, when 2008 were released the 2.8 were around $690 and seeing that when 2009 were released the prices went up then I think it is possible to have 2x 6core system as for $3299, dont you think?

[strausd]

no its not :)) I'm in UK :)

anyway, when 2008 were released the 2.8 were around $690 and seeing that when 2009 were released the prices went up then I think it is possible to have 2x 6core system as for $3299, dont you think?

No. If you go back and look, the price difference between the 2008 8-core model and 2009 8-core was $500. Also, there was an additional 4GB of RAM that came with the stock model. You go look and see how much Apple charges for 4GB of RAM, its $500. I think the price increase had absolutely nothing to do with CPUs.

[Gloor]

Really? So no chance for 2x6 core model for basic price? I don't want to pay $1000 or more on top of $3299 just to get it. What would be the advantage and speed increase of the rumored gulftown processors vs harpertown ones?

[Umbongo]

Really? So no chance for 2x6 core model for basic price? I don't want to pay $1000 or more on top of $3299 just to get it. What would be the advantage and speed increase of the rumored gulftown processors vs harpertown ones?

It's $4,699 for an 8 core 2.66GHz system. The 6 core 2.66GHz processors are slightly more expensive and are the cheapest 6 core Xeon 5000 series processors currently available. Maybe Apple will change back to how it was in 2006 and 2008 which could mean a 12 core for $3,299, but I wouldn't get too excited.

[fearoftigers]

"Our source also noted that the Mac Pro is currently on constraint, apparently for 1-2 weeks due to a part issue. While it too could be updated soon, it’s unlikely both updates would occur together"

http://www.macworld.com.au/news/rumour-new-imacs-coming-this-week-13498/

[xgman]

"Our source also noted that the Mac Pro is currently on constraint, apparently for 1-2 weeks due to a part issue. While it too could be updated soon, it’s unlikely both updates would occur together"

http://www.macworld.com.au/news/rumour-new-imacs-coming-this-week-13498/


If they update the imac before the mac pro, that would be a huge insult and slap in the face to the pro users. Even if only a short gap. But it wouldn't surprise me. It's almost like Jobs himself has something against Mac Pro or it's users. Time will tell.

[ValSalva]

If they update the imac before the mac pro, that would be a huge insult and slap in the face to the pro users. Even if only a short gap. But it wouldn't surprise me. It's almost like Jobs himself has something against Mac Pro or it's users. Time will tell.

I think pro users are getting used to it. They are beginning to look like they have Rosacea :o <---- red face, get it.

[Gloor]

I hope that 6 and 12 core will be really affordable.

Also, there are whispers that it might be tomorrow but we all know how it goes. :)

Anyway, you never know :)))

[Gloor]

guys, do you have any decent benchmark website that would compare the xeon processors? Ie, harpertown, nehalem and gulftown (early 2008, late 2009 and upcoming(?) 2010) ?

I would like to see the difference in speeds if possible.

Thank you :)

[Gloor]

It's $4,699 for an 8 core 2.66GHz system. The 6 core 2.66GHz processors are slightly more expensive and are the cheapest 6 core Xeon 5000 series processors currently available. Maybe Apple will change back to how it was in 2006 and 2008 which could mean a 12 core for $3,299, but I wouldn't get too excited.

Well, if you look at this 2 processors then the price difference is not that high

http://ark.intel.com/Compare.aspx?ids=47922,33084,

E5462 = $797
X5650 = $996

Seeing that Early 2008 had 2x E5462 as base line then it is possible to have 2x X5650 in Late 2010, don't you think? I know its $400 difference but 2009 models are more expensive than 2008 ( I know your reasoning but that changed with time) so the chance is there, not?

Or you really think that we will have to pay extra $1400 to get 2x 6?

[Umbongo]

Well, if you look at this 2 processors then the price difference is not that high

http://ark.intel.com/Compare.aspx?ids=47922,33084,

E5462 = $797
X5650 = $996

Seeing that Early 2008 had 2x E5462 as base line then it is possible to have 2x X5650 in Late 2010, don't you think? I know its $400 difference but 2009 models are more expensive than 2008 ( I know your reasoning but that changed with time) so the chance is there, not?

Or you really think that we will have to pay extra $1400 to get 2x 6?

We don't know why the pricing changed in 2009, or how it has affected sales so we'll have to wait until tomorrow (hopefully) to find out. That they did it before means it is possible, but I certainly wouldn't expect it.

[Gloor]

We don't know why the pricing changed in 2009, or how it has affected sales so we'll have to wait until tomorrow (hopefully) to find out. That they did it before means it is possible, but I certainly wouldn't expect it.
true, lets hope all the rumors are right. I even had a very good source today whispering to that direction so lets hope it was a signal for good news :)

[fearoftigers]

Well guys, it's been a long hard road and we're not there yet but finally it really does look like well see something within the next 24 hours.

I salute you all!

[strausd]

We don't know why the pricing changed in 2009, or how it has affected sales so we'll have to wait until tomorrow (hopefully) to find out. That they did it before means it is possible, but I certainly wouldn't expect it.

See post 231.

[Umbongo]

See post 231.

Just coincidence.

[Concorde Rules]

Well guys, it's been a long hard road and we're not there yet but finally it really does look like well see something within the next 24 hours.

I salute you all!

Well if it's any good then my Mac Pro will be going straight on ebay!

However I suspect I won't be able to get a 3.33Ghz Mac Pro for £500 more than I could pay now :p

[strausd]

Just coincidence.

Well I still don't think CPUs will cause a big price increase in the new models, the prices are pretty much the same for the new six-core 5600s.

[Umbongo]

Well I still don't think CPUs will cause a big price increase in the new models, the prices are pretty much the same for the new six-core 5600s.

No nor do I. There was the slight increase in the 2008 models as the processors went up. The 2009 models are weird because the processors they used were a lot cheaper but prices went up.

[strausd]

No nor do I. There was the slight increase in the 2008 models as the processors went up. The 2009 models are weird because the processors they used were a lot cheaper but prices went up.

Faster RAM? More RAM? GPU? There are multiple things that can cause that to happen.

[jjahshik32]

No nor do I. There was the slight increase in the 2008 models as the processors went up. The 2009 models are weird because the processors they used were a lot cheaper but prices went up.

Its because in 09' Steve Jobs needed surgery to stay alive so he had to raise the price of the Mac Pros.

Now that he had successful surgery and the iPad/iPhone 4 are a huge hit, he's going to lower the price of the 10' Mac Pros. :D

[xraydoc]

Gettin' ready for a ~3GHz 12-core! :D