So many problems, so few cojones.

[mischief]

Okay, I've been seeing the various global hotbutton topics pop up here recently and I want to hear SOLUTIONS dammit.

I'm starting this thread to see if, among what has proven to be a fairly mentally adept crowd there can be found actual SOLUTIONS to the issues (and others like them) that I'll list below. I'd like to go through them and really go through each one... not from the usual "here's the problem" angle because the problems are well defined. I want solutions. none of this stopgap, vote getting, keep funding my research garbage neither. These are all things that require long term PLANS.

* Terrorism.

* World Hunger.

* Global Climatic Imballance.

* Global Ecological Imballance.


Pick one and go for it.

[blackfox]

* Terrorism.

* World Hunger.

* Global Climactic Imballance.

* Global Ecological Imballance.

Those would make for a great game of "who's on first" or "chicken/egg"...

more seriously, I'll think on it...

[Blue Velvet]

You will not 'solve' or 'defeat' terrorism.

It is a strategy, a tactical approach to being faced with a superior military threat that has been used for centuries.

It may be waged by sophisticated, intelligent people or fanatical psychopaths or both...

It has no regard for the Geneva Convention because from a terrorist's perspective... the end justifies the means.

One person's terrorism is another's 'freedom fighter'...

[mischief]

You will not 'solve' or 'defeat' terrorism.

It is a strategy, a tactical approach to being faced with a superior military threat that has been used for centuries.

It may be waged by sophisticated, intelligent people or fanatical psychopaths or both...

It has no regard for the Geneva Convention because from a terrorist's perspective... the end justifies the means.

One person's terrorism is another's 'freedom fighter'...

All of this is still defining the problem.

The root of which is the imballance of context between the first and third worlds.

So for Terrorism the question becomes:

How do you resolve a cultural gulf that is re-enforced by xenophobic ideologues at both ends?

[skunk]

* Global Climactic Imballance.
Not enough orgasms? Sort it out yourself.

Unless, of course, you meant "climatic"... :D

[Blue Velvet]

All of this is still defining the problem.

The root of which is the imballance of context between the first and third worlds.

So for Terrorism the question becomes:

How do you resolve a cultural gulf that is re-enforced by xenophobic ideologues at both ends?

Your definition of terrorism doesn't seem to include: Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Omaha City... amongst others.

These disputes have nothing to do with 1st v. 3rd worlds.

As long as there are fanatics, there will be terrorism...

[mischief]

Not enough orgasms? Sort it out yourself.

Unless, of course, you meant "climatic"... :D

Touche.

[atszyman]

* Terrorism.

* World Hunger.

* Global Climatic Imballance.

* Global Ecological Imballance.


Pick one and go for it.

I'll pick two. Take all of the terrorists food and give it to the hungry. :D

[zimv20]

* Terrorism.
for the separatists, give 'em some land and self-rule. for the islamic fundamentalists, get foreign troops out of their holy land.

any terrorist goals i've missed?

[mischief]

Your definition of terrorism doesn't seem to include: Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Omaha City... amongst others.

These disputes have nothing to do with 1st v. 3rd worlds.

As long as there are fanatics, there will be terrorism...

Where do you see fanaticism's root?

This is not a problem of fanatics simply existing or being born such. Certain conditions must exist. These include isolation, economic fugue in the region, social power lying in either a literal or de facto Theocracy and desperation.

These are then channelled by the Theocracy into an agressive and violent outlet directed at some outside group that is demonized and blamed for the current condition. So rather than focussing on bettering their conditions the emphasis has become one of violent scapegoating. Often this is based on the half-truth that the culture being blamed had, in past generations been responsible for the conditions that lead to the above conditions. The logic being that current generations are complicit and must be punnished.

This too is digression. What do you suggest DOING about it? Historically violence ALWAYS agggrivates the problem by justifying the case of the idologues promoting violence.

[mischief]

for the separatists, give 'em some land and self-rule. for the islamic fundamentalists, get foreign troops out of their holy land.

any terrorist goals i've missed?

Complications:

Where? From what I can tell, any piece of habitable land on the planet is claimed by at least three groups. Shall we simply declare some of the most hotly contested areas non-countries and forbid ANYONE live in them? Jerusalem for instance?

(This has realy been getting to me so please forgive my tone.)


Fundamentalists.... Has anyone else noticed that Fundamentalists aren't really fundamentalists? They're really ultra-conservatives who want to go back to the "old ways" that have little or nothing to do with the thrust of their religion. Puritains are the best western example I can think of. Am I full of **** or are we enabling these groups by acknowledging their legitimacy more than is healthy?

[blackfox]

upon further reflection:

the only actual solution to terrorism (or all the problems) is to end humanity. Harsh, but true.

short of that, trimming a few billion off the world's register would probably cause at least some of the these problems to be addressed by the more thoughtful. Disasters of this magnitude would also exarcerbate world-hunger and the potential for terrorism, but I have found that humanity is at it's best when faced with disaster and might actually realize that we are all human. Temporary solution at best, and unlikely to be uniform.

Satisfying a human's base needs for security, meaningfulness, and dignity would go a long way. Of course, then new needs pop up...education, sanitation and music help with that. Sexual gratification and love fit in there too.

With education, however, there is the question of what should be taught, which will never be homogenous (nor should it) and therefore always a point of contention.

Since everyone is unique, and we are not equal it is difficult have a plan that covers everyone w/o stifling that which is best about humanity.

It is what is worst about humanity that we are talking about, of course, and it is hard-wired into each of us. Some of us, through religion, or education, or intelligence will be able to mitigate this dark side, but it is difficult. Entropy is a physical law. It is the curse of free will, an complex world beyond our understanding and short lives.

Things are bound to be tied up in unfortunate ironys and paradoxes. You might say that the wiser or the the more affluent should assist those who are foolish and without, but is anyone wise enough to make the correct choices about other people's lives? More importantly, will the foolish understand the reasons and context of these actions? It is misunderstandings such as these that give rise to conflict and cliche.

I believe that the Bible is pretty good at spelling out these inherent human flaws and attempting to posit solutions. It also ultimately says it won't work and we will all be destroyed. Problem solved, one way or the other.

[zimv20]

Complications:

Where? From what I can tell, any piece of habitable land on the planet is claimed by at least three groups.
the devil's in the details, of course. some examples of areas in which i would consider supporting separatism:
- the basque region of spain
- kashmir
- northern sri lanka
- southern phillippines
- southern US
- northern ireland
- kurdistan
- uigers in china
- tibet

these are all examples of more or less indiginous people wanting self-rule (okay, southern US is a stretch). outmatched militarily, many of them turn to terror as a way to 1) get attention, and 2) achieve their goals of self-rule. the reluctance of the ruling country to do so is, imo, more a function of what's best for the ruling country than what's best for the inhabitants.

terror is a way to change the calculation of what's best for the ruling country. provide self-rule, terror drops.

i'm going to start a thinktank. "Half-Baked" is the first name that springs to mind :-)

[mischief]

"Satisfying a human's base needs for security, meaningfulness, and dignity would go a long way. Of course, then new needs pop up...education, sanitation and music help with that. Sexual gratification and love fit in there too.

With education, however, there is the question of what should be taught, which will never be homogenous (nor should it) and therefore always a point of contention.

Since everyone is unique, and we are not equal it is difficult have a plan that covers everyone w/o stifling that which is best about humanity."

This is the best most simply profound way I've seen to express this in quite a while.

It's quite obvious that none of these are issues that cen be made to "go away", however this does not render them hopeless issues nor issues that can be excused as being unworkable because of their nature. Your suggestions on where to start are spot on.

We can agree then that human compassion must be the driving force in combatting Terrorism correct?

Now how do we go about working that Compassion into a reciprocal solution?

[zimv20]

You might say that the wiser or the the more affluent should assist those who are foolish and without, but is anyone wise enough to make the correct choices about other people's lives?
If the aborigine drafted an IQ test, all of Western civilization would presumably flunk it. -- Stanley Marion Garn, anthropologist (1922- )

[zimv20]

Now how do we go about working that Compassion into a reciprocal solution?
i don't think we have to. it would come about as a matter of course.

[mischief]

the devil's in the details, of course. some examples of areas in which i would consider supporting separatism:
- the basque region of spain
- kashmir
- northern sri lanka
- southern phillippines
- southern US
- northern ireland
- kurdistan
- uigers in china
- tibet

these are all examples of more or less indiginous people wanting self-rule (okay, southern US is a stretch). outmatched militarily, many of them turn to terror as a way to 1) get attention, and 2) achieve their goals of self-rule. the reluctance of the ruling country to do so is, imo, more a function of what's best for the ruling country than what's best for the inhabitants.

terror is a way to change the calculation of what's best for the ruling country. provide self-rule, terror drops.

i'm going to start a thinktank. "Half-Baked" is the first name that springs to mind :-)


I can see your point. I just wanted to draw you out a bit. Do you support returning ancestral Tibal lands to Native American tribes... or the nearest facsimile (National Parks)?

[zimv20]

Do you support returning ancestral Tibal lands to Native American tribes...
i would consider it, yes.

[blackfox]

If the aborigine drafted an IQ test, all of Western civilization would presumably flunk it. -- Stanley Marion Garn, anthropologist (1922- )
In part, you proved my larger point...mired in such relativism, who's to judge the standards?

That doesn't stop people from making, from their POV, logical assumptions about such matters (or any others).

I did not mean to imply that Wisdom and Affluence belonged together, that affluence referred to monetary standards, or that the West has anything to do with either. Still, we do have iPods and such...

The fact that most of us here on this forum come from a singular Culture/Civilization and still can't understand each other, let alone agree, does not bode well for the larger picture. Plus, there will always be a "Voltron" in the mix...

[blackfox]

A couple more suggestions:

- Capitalism, as we know it would have to go. What to replace it with, I am unsure. Of the top of the head, I would consult EF Schumacher, perhaps the best economist of modern times. Economies of scale and relavance. I am of the opinion that Capitalism encourages conflict. Also the rest of the list.

- We might have a chance of pulling things together about the time we truly understand Quantum Physics. The principles are very applicable (on multiple levels). Same, to a lesser extent, with Fusion. Added benefit of Energy source.

- Democracy may have to go to, or a new, limited form of it developed. Preferably, the populace would be rise to task, but the former is easier, so is probably the better bet. Best bet is a decentralized federation, on the city-state level, keeping power diffused and issues simple and relevant.

- Space travel would help, as people could leave and fu** up other worlds.

[zimv20]

i'm fond of saying that "everything is a resource allocation problem". though i've backed off on that a bit (after many conversations w/ friends about exceptions, but that's another story), i think it's definitely applicable here.

here are the resources which need to be allocated properly:
1. natural resources
2. power
3. money

it is my belief that the 1st world's energy demands force it to take from regions outside their domains, leading (to put it mildly) to strife. the most obvious example is middle east oil.

[blackfox]

i'm fond of saying that "everything is a resource allocation problem". though i've backed off on that a bit (after many conversations w/ friends about exceptions, but that's another story), i think it's definitely applicable here.

here are the resources which need to be allocated properly:
1. natural resources
2. power
3. money

it is my belief that the 1st world's energy demands force it to take from regions outside their domains, leading (to put it mildly) to strife. the most obvious example is middle east oil.
I absolutely agree (see above post, first paragraph). I also have a few minor caveats, but it is the largest singular contributer to problems, with the exception of ignorance.

Which is why I would add "knowledge" to that list.

A slightly contentious addition (in definition and execution) as noted, but necessary.

[zimv20]

Which is why I would add "knowledge" to that list.

i should probably list the classes of problems. in order of prevalence:
1. resource allocation
2. communication
3. logging

knowledge/education is interesting. on one hand, communication problems destroy knowledge. but there's also the aspect that poor monetary and priority resource allocation contributes to undereducation. good find.

[skunk]

Logging??? Where did that come from?

[Sun Baked]

I'll pick two. Take all of the terrorists food and give it to the hungry. :DWhat about taking all the terrorists and feeding them to the hungry, aka "Soylent Green."

[zimv20]

Logging??? Where did that come from?
when i declared that _all_ problems were resource allocation ones, my friends kept throwing me counter-examples. that's how Communication was born. the only counter-example that didn't fit into those two was: you're in the woods, a tree falls over and traps you.

a logging problem.

[blackfox]

interesting insight to your conversations among friends zim...

now, if a tree falls on you in a forest and there is no-one to hear it...that's a problem of communication.

[pseudobrit]

I'd say it's also a resource allocation problem. Someone failed to relocate that tree before it fell on you.

[zimv20]

yes, these were the kinds of arguments i was making, but my friends didn't like the stretches. so we compromised.

[skunk]

Where were we? :rolleyes:

[Ugg]

* Terrorism.

* World Hunger.

* Global Climatic Imballance.

* Global Ecological Imballance.


Pick one and go for it.

I don't believe that they are separate issues. I think that they all stem from a lack of economic justice. I'm a big believer in the idea that the true cost of goods and services should be charged instead of simply the subsidized cost. A case in point is oil. We pay the producer, the transporter, the refiner, but there is no cost factored in for pollution and the government picks it up. Nuclear power is another. Shouldnt' we be paying up front for the disposal charges?

The current spate of terrorism can be directly attributed to the world's dependence upon oil. If consumer prices had included the total cost of oil usage from the get go, then it's doubtful the regimes of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, etc. would have come into existence. Ok, we can't go back but we don't have to continually make the same mistake.

Hunger falls into the same category, if we paid people their true worth then it's doubtful hunger would be such a huge problem.

World fascism, thanks to the IMF, WTO and the USA as well as a number of other first world companies is unfortunately destroying the socio-economic fabric of the countries that most need assistance.

[SPG]

Do you support returning ancestral Tibal lands to Native American tribes?

I do support returning the riches through casinos. :)
But rather than just let a flip answer sit, I think we should work towards stopping the things we're doing that are aggravating these situations.
Was it Howard Zinn who responded to the question of how do you stop terrorism by saying "Stop bombing the brown people."?

[solvs]

You are asking for simple solutions to complicated issues and problems. In situations like these, there is no black and white. Polticians answer, I know... but it's the truth.

[mischief]

I'll agree that it's all about resources.

I'll agree that Zim's second list defines things nicely.

I'll even agree with the statement about Logging (And I'm a Canadian from a Paper town!!).

So what do we do about it?

Everyone seems to have gotten the point that it's all one overarching set of symptoms defining something more fundamental. 'Fox even hit on the long-term survival changes that will be neccessary for Humanity to survive:

* A truely fluid economic model beyond Capitalism.

* A new and elegant model of national/international infrastructure management.

* Getting off-planet.

No matter how you slice it we're going to wind up on several worlds. We're too curious and too successful a species not to expand. We are at our most fulfilled as cultures when we are engaged in massive exploration.


So how do we get there?

There are several essential elements to tackle:

Resource Allocation has to be first.

Most essential Resources are as follows:

*Water.
*Food.
*Shelter/Clothing.
*Heat/Fire/Cooking capability/Electricity/Light.
*Society
*Education
*Faith/Belief/Hope/Purpose/Love

As far as I'm concerned THESE are the Unaleable Rights that were too fundamental for the Founding Fathers to consider and put in print. Nonetheless they are essential and must be available to everyone.

Some must be added to the list to make the three goals above a real possibility. I feel that we'll never get any of it done unless we both tackle it in the above order and go about seeing that the below are available to as many people on the planet as possible in as saturated a manner as their cultures will accept:

*Universal Telecom. Universal communications eventually makes for a global society at a grassroots level.

* Universal Data Access. In order to fully participate in the global economy and make it possible to really overhaul how Money works EVERYONE must have access.

* Universal ID. Americans hate this one but it also is essential to Universal monetary and human services.

* Universal Human Services. These are core of the second round of essential resources. This would include Universal Insurance, Universal Healthcare, Universal Retirement and Universal AD&D.

* Standardization. The Pure Capitalist model of enforced de-standardization kills people and destroys property. Ask any Firefighter. Anything related to any of the above needs a standard model or the whole system loses efficiency.


So... After redefining the goal I'll ask again: Any idea of how we get there?