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Gregg2
Jun 3, 2010, 08:45 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=10811370

I say the Commish should step in and declare that game a perfect game. There was no need to record a fourth out in the top of the 9th.

GoCubsGo
Jun 3, 2010, 08:54 AM
Am I missing something? You said the Commish should step in and declare it a perfect game. Are they not? I read this:

Armando Galarraga squeezed the ball in his mitt, stepped on first base with his right foot and was ready to celebrate the first perfect game in Detroit Tigers' history.

What happened next will be the talk of baseball for the rest of this season and likely a lot longer.

Umpire Jim Joyce emphatically called Cleveland's Jason Donald safe and a chorus of groans and boos echoed in Comerica Park.

Then Joyce emphatically said he was wrong and later, in tears, hugged Galarraga and apologized.

"It was the biggest call of my career, and I kicked the (stuff) out of it," Joyce said, looking and sounding distraught as he paced in the umpires' locker room. "I just cost that kid a perfect game."

"I thought he beat the throw. I was convinced he beat the throw, until I saw the replay," he said after the Tigers' 3-0 win.

yg17
Jun 3, 2010, 08:56 AM
Am I missing something? You said the Commish should step in and declare it a perfect game. Are they not? I read this:

The ump said he was wrong after the game, but that doesn't change the outcome at all. Only the commish can step in and overturn that call to give him the perfect game.

Tilpots
Jun 3, 2010, 09:28 AM
I feel bad for both the player and the ump. The ump made a mistake, he admitted it, and now, unfortunately, it's over.

Baseball hasn't adopted instant replay for these types of calls. Maybe this incident will help them push it thru. I'm not for adding time to an already long game, but I'd rather see a fair and accurate game.

Rodimus Prime
Jun 3, 2010, 09:33 AM
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=10811370

I say the Commish should step in and declare that game a perfect game. There was no need to record a fourth out in the top of the 9th.

Personally I do not feel that Commish should step in and do that for the sole reason is that it would open up a entire huge can of worms of people going threw other old game tapes and try to have those things changed.

The human element is part of the game. Also baseball games are long enough as they are. Image if we started having replays on how long it would go.

yg17
Jun 3, 2010, 09:35 AM
I feel bad for both the player and the ump. The ump made a mistake, he admitted it, and now, unfortunately, it's over.

Baseball hasn't adopted instant replay for these types of calls. Maybe this incident will help them push it thru. I'm not for adding time to an already long game, but I'd rather see a fair and accurate game.

It wouldn't really add time. Managers and umpires already spend a few minutes arguing over close calls like this. If that time is spent reviewing the replay instead, they don't add any time to the game and they get the call right. It's a win-win.

Give managers one or two replays they get to use each game, and they can use them for just about any play except balls and strikes. An instant review doesn't take more than a couple minutes in hockey, it shouldn't take any longer in baseball either. So in a worst case scenaro, with each team using both of their reviews, you might add 10 minutes to the length of the game. It's worth it to get it right.

rdowns
Jun 3, 2010, 09:36 AM
Was nice to see the umpire admit his mistake.

Sucks for this kid. The commissioner needs to do the right thing here.

Tilpots
Jun 3, 2010, 09:39 AM
It wouldn't really add time. Managers and umpires already spend a few minutes arguing over close calls like this. If that time is spent reviewing the replay instead, they don't add any time to the game and they get the call right. It's a win-win.

Give managers one or two replays they get to use each game, and they can use them for just about any play except balls and strikes. An instant review doesn't take more than a couple minutes in hockey, it shouldn't take any longer in baseball either. So in a worst case scenaro, with each team using both of their reviews, you might add 10 minutes to the length of the game. It's worth it to get it right.

I like the idea of only getting a couple of challenges a game, just like in football. I also agree it shouldn't be used for balls and strikes. The human element, as mentioned above, is certainly part of the game. Plus you get three strikes or four balls to get a chance, one bad call doesn't ruin your at bat. But if mistakes of this magnitude can be prevented, they should be.

yg17
Jun 3, 2010, 09:44 AM
Personally I do not feel that Commish should step in and do that for the sole reason is that it would open up a entire huge can of worms of people going threw other old game tapes and try to have those things changed.

The human element is part of the game. Also baseball games are long enough as they are. Image if we started having replays on how long it would go.


I don't think it would open up a can of worms. There have been bad calls in the past, but rarely can the outcome of the game be guaranteed if the right call was made. Case in point, the 1985 World Series game 6, bottom of the 9th inning, and Denkinger's bad call at 1st base. Cardinals fans argue that if Denkinger had rightly called Orta out (which the replay showed he was clearly out) that the Cardinals would've gone on to win that game and the World Series, since the Cardinals were up in the series 3-2 and had the lead in the bottom of the 9th. If that call was right, rather than 1 on and no one out (which led to the Royals scoring and winning, and winning game 7), it would've been 1 out and no one on. But there's still no guarantee that the Cardinals would've closed out the 9th and won it. Bad call, and it probably changed the outcome, but no guarantee that if the right call was made, the Cardinals would've won, since it was not the 3rd out.

However, in this case, you have the 27th batter of a perfect game. The outcome of the game if the right call is made is guaranteed. Runner out, Galarraga gets the perfect game. It's not even really changing the outcome of the game. Detroit still won it. It would have no effect on standings. The only thing that would change is that Donald's batting average would drop a miniscule amount and Galarraga would get the perfect game that he pitched counted in the record books.

harrisbn
Jun 3, 2010, 09:50 AM
I agree that reversing the safe call would open up a can of worms for future blown calls. Imagine a World Series game that is decided at home plate on a blown call. If the commissioner reverses this call then how could he not reverse that one? My idea would be to make this game a no-hitter and charge the umpire with an 'error'! There were no hits in the game so that part is technically correct and the pitcher at least gets his name in the record books. Everyone is partially happy all around and the umpire takes the blame.

iOrlando
Jun 3, 2010, 09:51 AM
the problem here is not really the call itself but the situation the call took place in.

i bet that many similar calls are made all the time, involving the manager running on the field complaining..blah blah blah.

but since the perfect game was on-line, now it matters so much more.

looking at the replay, it really was close. people make it seem like it was so far away a baby could make the call a mile away.

I think the problem is the ref forgot the situation he was in. 9th inning 2 outs perfect game on the line. He just thought of it as a normal call, and made the call, normally if he was wrong, oh well. who cares.

I think most "normal" umpires, knowing it was the last play of the game, would have just called the guy out (even if he wasnt out).

rdowns
Jun 3, 2010, 09:58 AM
Precedent


There is precedent for the Commissioner's Office to decide what is, and isn't, a perfect game. On September 4, 1991, a so-called "Statistical Accuracy Committee" ruled that the game would only official recognize as perfect games, ones in which pitchers retired 27 (or more) consecutive batters and completed the game without a batter reaching first base. The ruling wiped off the books the 1959 game in which Harvey Haddix of Pittsburgh pitched 12 perfect innings, only to lose the game to Milwaukee on a base hit. It also erased the 1917 game in which then-pitcher Babe Ruth of the Boston Red Sox had walked the lead off batter, then been ejected by the umpire for arguing the call. Reliever Ernie Shore entered the game with none out and that runner on first, who was promptly caught stealing. Shore then retired the 26 batters he faced, and had, at the time of the Commissioner's Office ruling, been credited with a perfect game for more than 74 years. 48 more no-hit games were also erased by the re-definition of the rules.

http://keitholbermann.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/06/sources_commissioners_office_m.html

Unspeaked
Jun 3, 2010, 10:19 AM
Precedent

Changing rules is one thing. Overturning a call the day after a game ended is another.

I think the call should stand, but should lead the way towards expanded use of reply in baseball (which is coming sooner or later, anyway).

I feel bad for the kid, but that's life.

Tilpots
Jun 3, 2010, 10:24 AM
Precedent

Interesting read. Anybody know if the Commish has issued a statement on this incident?

MacNut
Jun 3, 2010, 10:32 AM
Changing rules is one thing. Overturning a call the day after a game ended is another.

I think the call should stand, but should lead the way towards expanded use of reply in baseball (which is coming sooner or later, anyway).

I feel bad for the kid, but that's life.The offical scorer had 24 hours to reverse a decision. I belive the Commissioner has the same time frame to reverse a call.

Interesting read. Anybody know if the Commish has issued a statement on this incident?

They have not yet decided if they will review it.

obeygiant
Jun 3, 2010, 11:49 AM
Go Tigers! :D

Gregg2
Jun 3, 2010, 12:31 PM
It wouldn't really add time. Managers and umpires already spend a few minutes arguing over close calls like this. If that time is spent reviewing the replay instead, they don't add any time to the game and they get the call right. It's a win-win.

Give managers one or two replays they get to use each game, and they can use them for just about any play except balls and strikes.
1. The arguing could still ensue after the replay review.
2. What if, in this case, the 1 or 2 "red flags" had already been thrown?

in this case, you have the 27th batter of a perfect game. The outcome of the game if the right call is made is guaranteed. Runner out, Galarraga gets the perfect game. It's not even really changing the outcome of the game. Detroit still won it. It would have no effect on standings. The only thing that would change is that Donald's batting average would drop a miniscule amount and Galarraga would get the perfect game that he pitched counted in the record books.
Plus the pitcher gets a put out, and the 1Bman gets an assist, pitcher's BA against improves. And the final out / at bat never happened. That batter's BA improves, pitcher's BA against drops, no assist, no put out, no pitches. What else did I miss? ;)

the problem here is not really the call itself but the situation the call took place in.

looking at the replay, it really was close. people make it seem like it was so far away a baby could make the call a mile away.

I think the problem is the ref forgot the situation he was in. 9th inning 2 outs perfect game on the line. He just thought of it as a normal call, and made the call, normally if he was wrong, oh well. who cares.

I think most "normal" umpires, knowing it was the last play of the game, would have just called the guy out (even if he wasnt out).

1st statement: It's both.
It really wasn't a "bang-bang" play. That kind of close play (tie goes to the runner) cannot usually be discerned from a video replay. The umpire has to also rely on his hearing to call it.
There should not be, and I'll argue that there are not, "situational calls" by an umpire. And, most, if not all umpires, really do care about getting the calls right. Did you hear what the ump said to the media, and to the pitcher?

Interesting read. Anybody know if the Commish has issued a statement on this incident? Not as of this posting.

The offical scorer had 24 hours to reverse a decision. I belive the Commissioner has the same time frame to reverse a call.Then he's running out of time. tick tick tick...

MacNut
Jun 3, 2010, 02:16 PM
Selig's statement06/03/2010 2:43 PM ET
Major League Baseball statement

"First, on behalf of Major League Baseball, I congratulate Armando Galarraga on a remarkable pitching performance. All of us who love the game appreciate the historic nature of his effort last night.

"The dignity and class of the entire Detroit Tigers organization under such circumstances were truly admirable and embodied good sportsmanship of the highest order. Armando and Detroit manager Jim Leyland are to be commended for their handling of a very difficult situation. I also applaud the courage of umpire Jim Joyce to address this unfortunate situation honestly and directly. Jim's candor illustrates why he has earned the respect of on-field personnel throughout his accomplished career in the Major Leagues since 1989.

"As Jim Joyce said in his postgame comments, there is no dispute that last night's game should have ended differently. While the human element has always been an integral part of baseball, it is vital that mistakes on the field be addressed. Given last night's call and other recent events, I will examine our umpiring system, the expanded use of instant replay and all other related features. Before I announce any decisions, I will consult with all appropriate parties, including our two unions and the Special Committee for On-Field Matters, which consists of field managers, general managers, club owners and presidents."

yg17
Jun 3, 2010, 02:25 PM
Selig's statement

In other words: "The umpire royally screwed up, the game should have ended differently, now I have to consult with others on what to do for long enough for the media to forget about it and let MLB and me off the hook"

Tilpots
Jun 3, 2010, 02:33 PM
In other words: "The umpire royally screwed up, the game should have ended differently, now I have to consult with others on what to do for long enough for the media to forget about it and let MLB and me off the hook"

Ha. Actually, this is great for the game of baseball. When was the last time the Today show did a story about the MLB? The sportsmanship in this case is unbelievable. It's a great story, with a, for now, unhappy ending. In this particular case bad press = good press.

rdowns
Jun 3, 2010, 02:40 PM
**** Mlb.

Glad I gave up on the game in the strike years.

RawBert
Jun 3, 2010, 02:58 PM
Just heard that the ump's call will not be reversed. :(

renewed
Jun 3, 2010, 03:05 PM
Just heard that the ump's call will not be reversed. :(

That's what SportsCenter is reporting.

admyrick
Jun 3, 2010, 03:23 PM
i read on espn.com last night that the tigers pitcher was one of the few players who actually did not go up to the ump after the game. thats sportsmanship for you. i mean jim leyland got tossed and miguel cabrera was still arguing with the ump for awhile afterward.

ill give props to the ump for recognizing that he screwed the call up but if you watch the video, it seems to me like he shows a little hesitation before making the call.

i feel bad for the pitcher. so close

Tilpots
Jun 3, 2010, 03:23 PM
So mush for all the goodwill they built up today.:rolleyes:

Gregg2
Jun 3, 2010, 05:20 PM
...if you watch the video, it seems to me like he shows a little hesitation before making the call.

Yes. His "out arm" (right) twitched a little before he extended both arms.

Selig was in Milwaukee today. The local report, just minutes ago, said a decision on whether or not to act on this call was not "official" yet, but a spokesperson indicated that the commish would not reverse the call.

dolphindolphin
Jun 3, 2010, 07:04 PM
apparently Galarraga got a corvette for his performance...Not a bad consolation! Link (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Armando-Galarraga-receives-a-Corvette-consolatio?urn=mlb%2C245508)

Sydde
Jun 3, 2010, 08:10 PM
Players get runs, hits and errors. Officials make errors as well. It is all part of the game. You can grumble about injustice, but officials' mistakes are as much part of the game as the actual play. I mean, I sure would like to have the numerous bad (and horrendous) calls back from Superbowl XL, but it ain't gonna happen, so, so it goes.

Consultant
Jun 3, 2010, 09:10 PM
That sucks, but at least the pitcher and many people know about his achievement.

MLB is just trolling for page views.

Seems common lately. ;)

macquariumguy
Jun 4, 2010, 04:36 AM
apparently Galarraga got a corvette for his performance...Not a bad consolation!
Ewwww, I wonder what 2nd prize was.

Gregg2
Jun 4, 2010, 08:28 AM
There is precedent for changing Baseball History. Hack Wilson's single season RBI record was increased by one several years ago. Fay Vincent decreed that several no-hitters were invalid while he was Commissioner. These were all done well after the conclusion of those games. This one might be changed in a few years.

The thing that makes it easy to change is that it was a play for the 27th out by the team that was ahead. Then, the next batter made what was truly the 28th out, and the game was over. It's problematic to change an umpire's call at any point before that 27th out.

A couple of years ago, C.C. Sabathia had a no-hitter spoiled by a bad call by the official scorer. An obvious error, made by Sabathia himself, was called a hit. That's another example of a case where the record could be corrected.

yg17
Jun 4, 2010, 08:34 AM
A couple of years ago, C.C. Sabathia had a no-hitter spoiled by a bad call by the official scorer. An obvious error, made by Sabathia himself, was called a hit. That's another example of a case where the record could be corrected.

But CC made the error so it's hard to have as much sympathy for him as people do for Galarraga. I know technically you can commit an error and still get the no hitter, but if CC had correctly fielded the ball, would the runner have been out?

Abstract
Jun 4, 2010, 08:38 AM
I think baseball should change the rules, or how plays are reviewed. However, I'm glad they're not changing the outcome. What's done is done, and now it is time to change the rules to fix this clear flaw in the current rules. It's not time to look back and change the outcome of games, for good or for bad.

macquariumguy
Jun 4, 2010, 09:16 AM
Fay Vincent decreed that several no-hitters were invalid while he was Commissioner.

Wasn't that a rules change regarding extra innings and 8 1/2 inning games? Hardly the same thing as this situation.

Gregg2
Jun 4, 2010, 12:32 PM
But CC made the error so it's hard to have as much sympathy for him as people do for Galarraga. I know technically you can commit an error and still get the no hitter, but if CC had correctly fielded the ball, would the runner have been out?
Yes, if he had made an accurate throw. He bobbled it trying to field it. (Uh-huh, I was watching the game - on TV.) It was big news here. That was during his "half"-season with the Brewers.

I think baseball should change the rules, or how plays are reviewed. However, I'm glad they're not changing the outcome. What's done is done, and now it is time to change the rules to fix this clear flaw in the current rules. It's not time to look back and change the outcome of games, for good or for bad.
That's actually a pretty good argument. I feel for the guy though.

Wasn't that a rules change regarding extra innings and 8 1/2 inning games? Hardly the same thing as this situation.
You're correct. I didn't mean to claim it was the same. I was commenting about precedent. This would be a new precedent.

longball11
Jun 10, 2010, 11:31 PM
Galarrga handled the situation better than anyone. The umpire handled the situation well with admittance. The fans? Not so much. Civilians threaten him and family? Should be shot.

andrewsd
Jun 11, 2010, 02:06 AM
Simple as that. That was beyond a mistake. I have pitched a no no at high school level. Couldn't Imagine a perfecto in the pros. Fire the ump. He deserves it.

Gregg2
Jun 11, 2010, 08:51 AM
Fire the ump. He deserves it.
Wow! I was going to search for this thread to make another comment. Apparently none too soon...

Galarrga handled the situation better than anyone. The umpire handled the situation well with admittance. The fans? Not so much. Civilians threaten him and family? Should be shot.
That's better, and I'm sure you're not suggesting mass murder.

Much more has been written about the behavior of all the principles in this after the fact than about the game and the blown call itself. I just cracked open the latest Newsweek today, and there are 3 separate articles about the aftermath of this play.

So, here goes...
I was waiting for the natural cycle to take hold in this thread. It never did. The second quote comes close. Galarrga exhibited class, grace, good sportsmanship, civility... and the accolades go on. Jim Joyce is a stand-up guy. He admitted blowing the call, and apologized. He was moved by Galarraga's noble actions, and by the fans who "got it" and cheered.

So perhaps from the many who commented on the game, so few have commented on the object lesson because, gasp, perhaps said lesson would then be applied to behavior on this forum, and we wouldn't want anyone to do that. Oops! Someone just did!