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MacBytes
Oct 17, 2004, 11:56 PM
Category: Opinion/Interviews
Link: CyberSpeak - Mac users froth, while Linux users befriend (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20041018005616)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

kiwi-in-uk
Oct 18, 2004, 12:52 AM
Score one for MacRumors members - mature, intelligent, etc :cool:

But it's a shame that a foul-mouthed minority of "others" prompted Kantor to write the article in the first place.

Nermal
Oct 18, 2004, 12:57 AM
Yeah, it's disappointing.

I use my Mac every day, and I often use Windows. While I do consider the Mac to be better, I don't try to force everyone to buy one - I understand that they're not for everyone (eg. gamers, people with a small budget, people with a large amount of Windows-only software). To scream at a news article just because you don't like it doesn't help anyone - in fact in this example I think it causes harm :eek:

J-Squire
Oct 18, 2004, 02:06 AM
It is a good day to be a macrumors regular. I started off not enjoying the article too much, as was pretty astonished by the absurdity of the comments he received in the emails from "mac enthusiasts". That kind of attitude towards an informative artice is not the way to win over windows users. Think Different, Not Dilinquent.

But the second hald was very enjoyable. A big congrats to all us (or most of us) mature, intellectual and rational macrumors devoted. Although, in some of the heated threads, it would be hard to draw a comparison between the praise he gave for macrumors members, and the comments being posted.

ph_555_shag
Oct 18, 2004, 02:28 AM
GO US! GO US!

we way rock........ i like this mature thing :)

SUCK ON THAT MDN..........

i meen....... were high above you, i shall say nothing to u cretins!

Diatribe
Oct 18, 2004, 02:42 AM
Awesome article. I liked that part... It was like going from a redneck barroom to the Yale Club. Nice comparison.
But seriously though, this maturity is the exact reason why I am here and not anywhere else. Hope it stays this way.

SilvorX
Oct 18, 2004, 02:47 AM
Awesome article. I liked that part... Nice comparison.
But seriously though, this maturity is the exact reason why I am here and not anywhere else. Hope it stays this way.
same here, actually when I first joined here 2+ years ago, there was a few members (now long gone hopefully) who were major pains in the neck and treated everyone "dumber" than them as basically n00bs, even me although I've been using macs since i was a little kid... even though I only got my first mac 2 years ago.

i wish some mac users weren't as big of jerks as they are, all mac fans have to defend apple once in a while but when the original article came out.. it seriously got out of hand... some people... thankfully there's no/very few jerks like that here :)

PlaceofDis
Oct 18, 2004, 03:05 AM
But seriously though, this maturity is the exact reason why I am here and not anywhere else. Hope it stays this way.

ditto...

if it wasnt for this comunity i wouldnt have been able to switch successfully to Macs in the past couple of years, and this awesome community is the reason why i keep coming back to Macrumors.com each day, there is always something interesting going on, and you dont have to deal with the rudeness of most people...

nagromme
Oct 18, 2004, 03:31 AM
Of course it's always the rude who stand out from a good growd, so nobody should take this the wrong way.... but I tend to think of forums.MacNN.com (http://forums.macnn.com/) being at the "frothy" end of the scale (but large and very useful), forums.MacCentral.com (http://forums.maccentral.com/) being at the reasoned and friendly end (but small), and MacRumors being in the middle.

I tend to post here more lately since rumors are more fun to discuss than news :D

Vonnie
Oct 18, 2004, 03:44 AM
When I first bought my ibook, and looked around for a few mac sites/communities, I stumbled on macdailynews, and was really scared.. I was really scared most mac communities would be like this. Aggressive, paranoid, retarded,.. I almost couldn't believe my eyes, "is this for real?, this must be a parody of all the cliches about religious mac users right?"

Thank god I found sites and forums like the ones of MacRumors/MacBytes and Ars.Technica. (and a local mac-community)

Sharewaredemon
Oct 18, 2004, 09:00 AM
Could anyone PM me the writers email,
i was ashamed to read this article at first, it really saddened me to hear of people writing him these emails. Sigh....


Anyway, I was so excited when he mentioned in the second half Macrumors, I haven't been browsing this site for a year yet, but it is the only mac rumor/community site i go to. It just so happened that one of my friends who was a recent switcher told me about it.

Kudos to macrumors for having such a great site, easy to use interface, and mature people posting.

Mr. Anderson
Oct 18, 2004, 09:11 AM
Awesome article. I liked that part... Nice comparison.
But seriously though, this maturity is the exact reason why I am here and not anywhere else. Hope it stays this way.

I don't think that you have to worry about that. The mods might get some flak once in a while for cracking down, but its just to keep the peace. We also like it around here and try to keep it that way.

The discussion over at MacRumors was also much more technical - while the MDN comments were about how evil I was, on MacRumors they were talking about the chips used, the benchmark results, and other machines based on Macs. It was like going from a redneck barroom to the Yale Club.

Anyone need that crested blue blazer for the club, we'll be making it available shortly at the MacRumors store :D :cool:

D

izod
Oct 18, 2004, 10:11 AM
I remember reading the original article that elicited all of the response, and I found it really minimized the role Apple played in providing the core architecture for the project. It seemed like a lot of credit was being dolled out, with a definite bias against admitting that Apple had really contributed anything beyond simply "making the boxes" used.

What I am getting at is MDN, although admittedly quite reactionary some of the time, plays a necessary role in the Macintosh community in rooting out (and rooting out quickly) such ant-mac sentiment that many tech media take against us on a regular basis. They have a front line approach of revealing and trying to correct this bias (or simply not tolerate bad reporting and misinformation of said media).

I don't post here a lot, and I don't post at MDN a lot, but I do read through all of these forums on a regular basis, usually several times a day.

I find it interesting that this author has essentially been able to write a biased article, received a lot of reader flack about it (both "good" and "bad") and has now chosen not only to whine about it, but separate two distinct segments of the Mac community and pit them successfully against one another - like one is better than the other for some reason.

I put it to the readers of this forum to see that maybe the people over at MDN (while I wouldn't ever condone a bunch of profane ramble in a response to an article) shouldn't be looked down upon, but should be regarded as part of our extended family.

Windows users don't get it - they wonder where the secret meetings are and what the special mac-handshakes is this week and are amazed at how tight and defensive we can get as a group sometimes. When we function as the "underdog" to a certain extent when up against such monolithic powers as Microsoft, we need to be vocal when we are wronged in the press.

Apple is fighting a pretty crazy battle to stay alive (even though we have it pretty good on a day to day basis), and while the success of the iPod is a wonderful and happy thing (and I hope it will push computer sales), we have to be vigilant when the media spins stuff incorrectly.

Please don't bash MDN for being a younger, brasher group than MacRumours is just because that author said so. The spin of the original article required a response, and that's what he got.

munkle
Oct 18, 2004, 11:12 AM
Please don't bash MDN for being a younger, brasher group than MacRumours is just because that author said so. The spin of the original article required a response, and that's what he got.

I guess we're a little more MLK in our approach here at MacRumors but I hardly call the following a response:

His note had a subject of "you suck, you f--n little b--f-" and read simply, "F-K YOU, F-K YOUF-K YOUF-K YOUF-K..." And so on, for several more lines. I've added the dashes here; he didn't.


Another Mac user calling him/her/itself "rp" had this to say: "Wake up an [sic] smell the roses *******. PC's [sic] are far behind Macs. Get you [sic] f-king s-t straight you f-king geek."


In a later note "rp" pointed me to a pro-Mac article with a note, "This guy is up for the next Pulitzer you f-king fat pig faced gay b-tch c-t bag pole smoking mofo. Take notes you *******."


And points for brevity go to Mac user "Nick" from Albany, N.Y., who wrote, simply, "douche .

izod
Oct 18, 2004, 11:59 AM
Yes, I freely admit that I would not condone such posts (see original message), but I'm sure of the hundreds of emails he got from MDN he picked the worst to exemplify...

The very nature of essentially anonymous (no registration) posting at MDN gets all kinds of trolls and the like, but the dialogue is lively and very interesting.

Again, I think Andrew Kantor is very biased against the mac (all the while "saying" that he is not), and both articles carried a spin against the platform and the community as a whole. All I am suggesting is not to allow him to divide the community against itself.

He wrote a biased article, and had it been worded more carefully and been better researched (he does not defend the other points mentioned in the article or addresses it's spin in his response piece), he would not have elicited any response in the first place!

Then, he counters by slamming the group that targeted the bad article. I think as a journalist, you should be open to criticism, and take a punch or two instead of essentially whining about a bunch of badly written emails he got.

Over at MacCentral, an author might respond in the forum itself, but wouldn't write a whole other piece pointing a finger at specific group for correctly criticizing his piece (regardless of a few bad eggs).

A bad judgement call, if you ask me.

Mac Daily News has just posted a response to this new article (a pretty good one) and there will probably be another wave of crusty replies sent to Andrew Kantor - which are well deserved at this point. Will Kantor then reply with yet another article? Hopefully not...

bousozoku
Oct 18, 2004, 12:54 PM
Of course it's always the rude who stand out from a good growd, so nobody should take this the wrong way.... but I tend to think of forums.MacNN.com (http://forums.macnn.com/) being at the "frothy" end of the scale (but large and very useful), forums.MacCentral.com (http://forums.maccentral.com/) being at the reasoned and friendly end (but small), and MacRumors being in the middle.

I tend to post here more lately since rumors are more fun to discuss than news :D

That's the truth about MacNN's forums. No one really bothers to stop anything except in their distributed computing area, which is almost civilised.

I like it here but things do get out of hand momentarily, although most of the influx of zealots from early this year is gone now.

It's a shame that someone can't focus on the bigger picture without being shot for not mentioning someone's favourite computer/operating system. I suppose some people just don't realise that computers are not religious icons.

Vonnie
Oct 18, 2004, 01:37 PM
I remember reading the original article that elicited all of the response, and I found it really minimized the role Apple played in providing the core architecture for the project. It seemed like a lot of credit was being dolled out, with a definite bias against admitting that Apple had really contributed anything beyond simply "making the boxes" used.


I read the article twice now. I didn't find a bias against Apple. The thing I noticed the most, that it wasn't like the other VT articles. The other VT articles were mostly reworded press releases. (like *allot* of articles out there).

In this article the author actually went and talked to the guy in charge of the operation. And it made an interesting article, filling in the gaps the other "articles" so clearly left unfilled.

It is important to note that it wasn't just Apple. There is a huge infrastructure needed to build a cluster, AC, power,.. It is also interesting to see *what* they actually do with the systems. I often left with the feeling after reading the other articles, that it was just a nice PR stunt from both Apple and Virginia Tech. The most that was said in those other articles was, that the cluster was used to do some science stuff. I found it interesting to get something a little bit more in depth than just "science stuff".

Other than that, it was pretty pro Apple. That's right, the article was positive towards Apple. It was clear from the article that the decision to go with Apple, was technical (because of the IBM processor), and not just because of marketing or because the CS department at VT are a bunch of mac zealots. Best system technically and financially.

And the last paragraph, where he said that the cluster was using OSX! Pretty important paragraph, if you know that there are still a bunch of people thinking the cluster runs on Linux. The article basically said that VT didn't need any mac-specific features. They didn't need the user-friendly Gui (they even disabled it!). They just needed a UNIX. The best UNIX for the system was Mac OS X, not any other unix like system (ie linux). I'm not sure how you can get even more *pro* apple than saying that Mac OS X isn't just a pretty face, but is a real work horse.

MacDailyNews just is that black spot on the mac community. They are just a embarrassment to us all. I wish they would just grow up.

Mr. Anderson
Oct 18, 2004, 01:38 PM
I suppose some people just don't realise that computers are not religious icons.

I'll bet there are plenty that do that still foam at the mouth when they perceive a provocation :D

Even if he just showed the worst of the emails - that's bad enough, there really isn't any call for that and in most cases I'm thinking its just a case of immaturity and ignorance. Add to that anonymity that the web provides and you can hide yourself behind an alias and shout epithets from the tops of the mountains....

D

bousozoku
Oct 18, 2004, 01:57 PM
I'll bet there are plenty that do that still foam at the mouth when they perceive a provocation :D

Even if he just showed the worst of the emails - that's bad enough, there really isn't any call for that and in most cases I'm thinking its just a case of immaturity and ignorance. Add to that anonymity that the web provides and you can hide yourself behind an alias and shout epithets from the tops of the mountains....

D

You know how many posts you've had to edit and/or delete because the author was being nutzo. I've seen posts and letters that don't even make sense. Someone reads the title and if the article isn't what they deem to be consistent with the title, the author is an idiot or anti-(fill in your favourite computer system here.)

I like my computers a lot and I consider Apple at the top of the heap for now but I don't idolise Steve Jobs anymore than I idolise Bill Gates. They're both intolerant screamers. :D Gary Kildall was much more civilised.

Well, hopefully, in the future the faithful will learn to read and be patient.

izod
Oct 18, 2004, 02:31 PM
But before you Mac people start giving each other high-fives, you should know that the university didn't say, "Hey, let's make a supercomputer out of Macs." They were interested in that PowerPC processor, which IBM happened to sell to Apple for those Macs. (All right, one high-five is allowed.)

Mr. Anderson, You don't detect a slight dig towards Apple there? Couldn't he have just left it at "They used 1100 G5 X-Serves"? It's subtle, but you have to admit it's there - the guy is impressed by the project, but isn't too thrilled that they are using Apple macs to do what they did.

...come on - you see it, right? :D

He should not have written an entire piece because of the replies he got though - what journalist does that? Regardless of how immature or high-school those replies were... In itself, replying like this and pointing at the MDN members specifically is a pretty childish move...

If he thought he got a sea of replies then, I shudder to think of the volume of replies Mr. Kantor is going to get now...

bousozoku
Oct 18, 2004, 02:54 PM
Mr. Anderson, You don't detect a slight dig towards Apple there? Couldn't he have just left it at "They used 1100 G5 X-Serves"? It's subtle, but you have to admit it's there - the guy is impressed by the project, but isn't too thrilled that they are using Apple macs to do what they did.

...come on - you see it, right? :D

He should not have written an entire piece because of the replies he got though - what journalist does that? Regardless of how immature or high-school those replies were... In itself, replying like this and pointing at the MDN members specifically is a pretty childish move...

If he thought he got a sea of replies then, I shudder to think of the volume of replies Mr. Kantor is going to get now...

I don't see a dig at Apple at all. It's directed toward Mac zealots.

Mr. Anderson
Oct 18, 2004, 03:18 PM
I don't see a dig at Apple at all. It's directed toward Mac zealots.

while it is a bit of possible taunting, I agree that its not aimed at everyone who has a mac - its aimed at zealots.

I'm anti-zealot in general, whether they be mac, pc, christian, muslim, etc... and open mind is the way to go here and a little tolerance for peoples opinions. No matter what he said, it doesn't justify some of those responses.

D

Santaduck
Oct 18, 2004, 03:30 PM
hahaha. I wonder why mudbug didn't change the submitted title to something along the lines of something meaning: macrumors>MDN

however i'm not sure if it's the difference in actual reader-communities, or the inflammatory content of the seed article that made the difference... although I must say I happily see very little flaming here at MR forums.

izod
Oct 18, 2004, 03:57 PM
Taunting it is... aimed at Mac zealots or not ("Mac people" seems more inclusive of all people that indeed have macs, but I'll let that one go), they will get a response.

I am also with you on the anti-zealot side of the fence. It is the very taunting from Mr. Kantor that seems to indicate a PC zealot taking a subtle dig at Mac people in general.

Anyway, although I am a little dismayed that he got some grade-school level, base messages, I'm glad he got hit with a response. In my humble opinion, I think he deserved it - further proved by this completely unnecessary "article" about the resulting fallout.

iMeowbot
Oct 18, 2004, 04:08 PM
Unfortunately, NeWS and NEXTSTEP were political failures because they suffer from the same two problems: oBNoXiOuS capitalization, and Amiga Persecution AttitudeTM.
It's almost reassuring to see the Apple community carrying the torch on that last bit ;)

requies
Oct 18, 2004, 05:06 PM
from the title i was expecting a comparison of mac and linux individuals or communities. what i found was self-righteous whining. where were linux users even mentioned in the article? i read the original article in question and felt that it really did trivialize apple and apple's contribution to the supercomputer. i didn't send the author a negative email about it. i simply ignored it as i ignore all the other anti-mac trash that abounds on the internet. obviously there are some individuals that feel compelled to evangelize to the detriment of the community's reputation and the author was right to feel put upon. despite that, i believe he possesses the worst kind of bias in that he is unaware of how his bias subtly infects his writing and truly believes himself to be objective. even after having his bias pointed out by many individuals, he launches into an artificial and self-important analysis of how the fault lies entirely with the community that reacted to his article. either he is unaware of how incendiary his article(s) were/are, or he is just playing dumb. either way he is merely a glorified troll whose contributions to journalism are negated by either his ignorance or spite.

solvs
Oct 18, 2004, 07:55 PM
There are psychos in any society, we all know PC zealots can be just as bad (if not worse, at least most of us have actually used PCs). Though some Maccies can take it way too far over the smallest things. A complex from all the constant attacks and FUD, I guess. Religion, computers... just an excuse to obsess though I think. I don't think he dissed Apple necessarily, just down played them and made some mistakes (and minor snipes). In a very poorly written article.

That, and he does seem to be taunting us.

izod
Oct 18, 2004, 11:21 PM
requies

I couldn't agree more...

Abstract
Oct 19, 2004, 12:59 AM
. I don't think he dissed Apple necessarily, just down played them and made some mistakes (and minor snipes). In a very poorly written article.


I'm not even sure if it was poorly written. I just think that people are so anal that they actually believe he slammed Apple when he didn't.

solvs
Oct 19, 2004, 04:31 AM
I'm not even sure if it was poorly written. I just think that people are so anal that they actually believe he slammed Apple when he didn't.
But before you Mac people start giving each other high-fives...
All that power powers a lot of power...
I've re-read the article, and I stand by my opinion. I've read worse, but he's trying way to hard to be funny, and goes off on way too many tangents. It's called cohesion (sorry, Mom's an English teacher). Anyway, he gets paid for it, so I'm sure someone is reading. And I do feel bad he got so thrashed for such a small infraction. If you're going to pick on the guy, pick something better to pick on him for than him picking on something he's now picking on for us picking on him for. :p

Somewhere, a poor English teacher's head just exploded after reading that. But it's ok for me to do stuff like that (and starting sentences with AND or BUT) because I'm not being paid for this. Unfortunetly.

iMeowbot
Oct 19, 2004, 06:30 AM
Ohhhhhh, that Andrew Kantor! He's been trolling various online communities in his columns for years and years. Once upon a time he used to even pop into Usenet to join in on the flamefests.