No PowerBook Updates Before 2005

[MacRumors]

MacCentral reports (http://www.macworld.com/news/2004/10/19/ibook/index.php) on the new iBooks that were released today and provides quotes from David Moody, vice president of Worldwide Mac Product Marketing. Moody lets us know that PowerBooks will not see updates before the end of the holidays:

This new line-up of iBooks, along with the current PowerBooks we have will make-up the complete portable line-up we will be offering for the holidays

[djkny]

My guess is Nov 16/23, right before the mad rush of the holiday shopping season. can Apple really afford to miss out on another peak shopping period like they did with the iMac's in sept? They missed out on back-to-school purchases, then ....

At least, bump up the current line high ends:

15" PB/1.8GHZ/8 X SD/256 VRAM/9800 Mobility

[JoePike]

This is not the best news I've heard all day. (sigh) :(

Well, the trusty Prismo lives to fly another day. Not sure how many days she has left in her, since I've got it pretty much maxed out, but she's gonna have to hang in there.

I have a feeling this means they're waiting to update the PB's until they can get those dual-core freescale chips in there, although I'd admittedly rather see them pack in a G5 somehow.

-Joe

[TyleRomeo]

hmmm..Can someone rekindle the MWSF 2005 Powerbook G5 speculation. I for one think it's going to happen. Ohh one more thing... those suckers won't ship until March.

Tyler

[hasapi]

Could this mean a PB G5 for MWSF?

[jrv3034]

Well, there you have it folks. Please, no more "PowerBook G5 next Tuesday" posts. I'm beggin' ya!

Seriously, Apple must be in a real pickle trying to make the PowerBook faster, be it with a G5, dual-core G4, whatever. They managed the iMac G5 down to 2" thick, but that's twice the size of a PB. Eek!

[wordmunger]

My guess is Nov 16/23, right before the mad rush of the holiday shopping season. can Apple really afford to miss out on another peak shopping period like they did with the iMac's in sept? They missed out on back-to-school purchases, then ....

At least, bump up the current line high ends:

15" PB/1.8GHZ/8 X SD/256 VRAM/9800 Mobility

My guess is that you are wrong. Apple isn't going to lie about this.

[chanoc]

Mac World San Francisco Jan. '05! Keynote....new powerbooks released...crowd cheers...next on the line-up iLife '05....60GB photo iPods...crowd cheers again...everyone in attendence receives a free ipod! :D

[crayzaysean]

hopefully this does mean they'll intro the dual-core freescale chip, but i doubt it. Most likely, freescale is maxed out at 1.5 right now until they can get the 1.8 out the door at the beginning of the year, and apple just has no choice other than staying at 1.5 with the powerbooks. Dual core isn't on the timeline until well into 2005 correct?

[djkny]

My guess is that you are wrong. Apple isn't going to lie about this.

You mean kinda like how Apple told the truth about never venturing into "Color Ipod/Vpod" territory for the life of them? Well I guess their veracity will be put to the test next Tues....either that, or Jobs just wants to chill with Bono ....

Apple has to CYA. Of course, they wouldn't announce "speedbumps" for Dec if they're still working like mad to make it happen. This way, if it does happen, then "yea! .. we're ahead of schedule. Merry xmas."

[slowtreme]

Well, the trusty Prismo lives to fly another day. Not sure how many days she has left in her, since I've got it pretty much maxed out, but she's gonna have to hang in there.Your are kidding yourself right? The notebooks out now are (speedwise) 6-10 times faster than what you are using, less if you just go by mhz. You're the user that will wait forever for the next best thing, while everyone else enjoys the current best thing.

At least they are saying flat out "THIS IS EVERYTHING WE HAVE" So buy now, or wait till next time. At least you don't have to second guess a purchase.

[Macmaniac]

SARCASM### This of course means new powerbooks next tuesday##SARCASM

[maya]

Mac World San Francisco Jan. '05! Keynote....new powerbooks released...crowd cheers...next on the line-up iLife '05....60GB photo iPods...crowd cheers again...everyone in attendence receives a free ipod! :D

I hope this dream comes true or you are going to get an earful ;) :P :D

Now to make a note of buying tickets for MWSF05. :)

[maya]

Your are kidding yourself right? The notebooks out now are (speedwise) 6-10 times faster than what you are using, less if you just go by mhz. You're the user that will wait forever for the next best thing, while everyone else enjoys the current best thing.

At least they are saying flat out "THIS IS EVERYTHING WE HAVE" So buy now, or wait till next time. At least you don't have to second guess a purchase.

Dunno, with 1M cache on those pismo. they still hold they weight. :D

1Gig Ram on a pismo :eek: /sarcastic :D

[jared_kipe]

Seriously people, stop the 1.8GHz and dual core for holidays. It isn't going to happen, they just told us so. I wish it weren't so, but it is.

[tsk]

Does a price drop count as an upgrade? I'm guessing they can't possibly wait too long without dropping the price to make it more competetive vs the ibook.

[MacSA]

I guess that short statement will have pretty much killed off any sales off the current Powerbooks.

Strange he didn't make any reference to the eMac which is also due for an update.

[GroundLoop]

Neither of the e600 chips are even sampling until the second half of 2005. There will NOT be a dual-core PowerBook until at least then. The most we could hope for would be a MPC7448 based Powerbook. Maybe we will get a better GPU, bigger HDD, Higher resolutions screens, etc. But, I amnot getting my hopes up for anything spectacular for the PowerBook at MWSF.

edit: After further review, even the MPC7448 will not sample until 2005.

Hickman

[djkny]

whatever happened to that dual-core chip production (Motorola?) mentioned in August?

[GroundLoop]

whatever happened to that dual-core chip production (Motorola?) mentioned in August?

Freescale (Motorola's chip division) announced that they were designing a dual core G4 (MPC8641D). That chip will not be sampling until 2H 2005 along with the single core version of that chip (MPC8641). The Other chip that they announced (MPC7448) is pin for pin compatible with the current G4, but that is not sampling until 1H 2005.

Hickman

[locovaca]

I guess that short statement will have pretty much killed off any sales off the current Powerbooks.

Strange he didn't make any reference to the eMac which is also due for an update.

Actually, it's going to accelerate my purchase. I needed to buy a 17" PB before Thanksgiving and was holding out for an update. With this news I'll order now so that I have a month longer to enjoy it...

It's not that the current ones are bad (despite all the complaining about the lack of a G5, I'm perfectly happy with a G4). However, I didn't want to pay extra for something like 128 VRAM if it came standard on a newer model...

[macridah]

I hope there is a major upgrade at the MWSF.

[nagromme]

My name is Nagromme, I voted negative, and it felt good :D

It's too bad the PowerBooks won't be updated for a while, but they're still ahead of the iBooks if you look at all the specs.

I predict another G4 PB update--but a nice one--before we see G5s. PowerBooks are in the lull PowerMacs once were, waiting for a practical mobile G5. The delay is a shame, but it's reality--and there's still nothing out there to compete with a PowerBook unless you look at speed alone and are willing to lug a thick, heavy monster (and give up OS X!)

But G5s in Jan. are POSSIBLE for sure. (I'm skeptical about dual-core Freescale G4s. If there's another G4 PB I expect it to be faster single-cores, with other features improved.)

[Lancetx]

I guess that short statement will have pretty much killed off any sales off the current Powerbooks.

Strange he didn't make any reference to the eMac which is also due for an update.

Not making that statement would have killed off any sales of the current Powerbooks you mean. Now that people realize that there won't be an update until January at the earliest, there is no sense in waiting around now. As for the eMacs, we'll probably see a quiet update sometime within the next month, probably to a 1.5 GHz G4 I'd think.

[afields]

Well, this sucks. :( The laptop line is really weak right now, even with the iBook update. Even if they announce the powerbook g5 in january, that means they will probably "ship" february, then calculate almost certain delays and you probably won't get it till at least march. And then hope there are no bugs for a rev. A product....... :( I guess my 800mhz iBook will due for now. *sigh*

[quagmire]

The 12" Powerbook should still be faster then the 14" ibooks even at the same clockspeed. But, the FSB is different. 133 Mhz vs 167 Mhz. So the 12" pbook should still be a little faster but, won't be noticeable.

[aswitcher]

I predict another G4 PB update--but a nice one--before we see G5s. PowerBooks are in the lull PowerMacs once were, waiting for a practical mobile G5. The delay is a shame, but it's reality--and there's still nothing out there to compete with a PowerBook unless you look at speed alone and are willing to lug a thick, heavy monster (and give up OS X!)

But G5s in Jan. are POSSIBLE for sure. (I'm skeptical about dual-core Freescale G4s. If there's another G4 PB I expect it to be faster single-cores, with other features improved.)

I too expect only a minor G4 speed hike, likely a few dollars cheaper, and not much else.

All effort I think is going into the G5 not the dual core technology which doesn't even exist yet commercially (?).

G5 will require a new chasis, likely a bit thicker (?) for special cooling systems, bigger battery (cooling), monster HDD (100 gig), better screen, dual layer DVD burner. I expect it to be an exy machine with rev A heat and design issues.

[mfacey]

I guess that short statement will have pretty much killed off any sales off the current Powerbooks.

Strange he didn't make any reference to the eMac which is also due for an update.

Besides the other comments already made about the sales, I can also add that only a tiny percentage of apple users frequently visits sites such as macrumors. The typical Apple buyer isn't sitting around waiting for a PBG5 like us.
Thank goodness there are still some sane people out there! :D

[jxyama]

Actually, it's going to accelerate my purchase. I needed to buy a 17" PB before Thanksgiving and was holding out for an update. With this news I'll order now so that I have a month longer to enjoy it...

It's not that the current ones are bad (despite all the complaining about the lack of a G5, I'm perfectly happy with a G4). However, I didn't want to pay extra for something like 128 VRAM if it came standard on a newer model...

i think this is the right attitude. for once, you can purchase a computer knowing that the apple's offering will not change for a few months.

apple will not lie about this. it's hardware - their source of revenue. just like how they said G4 iMacs are discontinued back during the summer, letting people honestly know what's going on will definitely do a lot more good than harm.

[Xtremehkr]

I voted negative for this one as well. I'm not going to hold Apple responsible however because they don't make the chips, so it's just bad luck for them because they are going to lose out on some holiday sales.

Not that the PB is not a good laptop. It's a great machine, especially compared to what I am happily using now, but they would have done better if the chips had been available.

Maybe a discount for the PBs at least? not even a little bitty one?

[aswitcher]

As for the eMacs, we'll probably see a quiet update sometime within the next month, probably to a 1.5 GHz G4 I'd think.

I am still hoping for a completely redesigned emac...

[howard]

G5 IN '05!! G5 IN '05!!

[Trowaman]

my guess:

MWSF will see iLife '05 and Dual Core Powerbooks.

XServes can be updated over the next mont (2.3).

iPod fun next week (Minis at MWSF)

eMacs . . . man I dunno on those.

[SiliconAddict]

I'm betting this is going to hit Apple's bottom line hard this fall and rightly so. Once again this just proves that Apple is incapable of juggling multiple product lines without leaving something to wither on the vine.

[snahabed]

People, Apple just made the iBooks an incredible value, and they have done something they almost NEVER do... definitively tell you a basic time frame for a desired product.

You all aren't waiting for Tiger because we know it is first half of 05.

Now you can add a PowerBook revision to the first half of 05 (at the earliest).

Apple has hinted for a long time that PowerBook G5's would probably not show up until 2005, and all this dual core chatter has been just that -- chatter.

You can all plan accordingly. This is a positive development. What exactly is the problem?

[ProjektJ]

This is not the best news I've heard all day. (sigh) :(

Well, the trusty Prismo lives to fly another day. Not sure how many days she has left in her, since I've got it pretty much maxed out, but she's gonna have to hang in there.

I have a feeling this means they're waiting to update the PB's until they can get those dual-core freescale chips in there, although I'd admittedly rather see them pack in a G5 somehow.

-Joe
you do realize it's pismo, not prismo right? like pismo beach in california

[GroundLoop]

my guess:

MWSF will see iLife '05 and Dual Core Powerbooks.



How many times does it have to be said...it is physically impossible for dual core PowerBooks to appear at MWSF.

Hickman

[Eevee]

I don't mind having a G5 Powerbook 2" thick!!

Ha...Ha...

[shabbasuraj]

Man if this holds true, then I am sure glad I got my RevC 12" PB when I did back in early June. When making the decision in buying it, I had an erie feeling that this would be the last revision of the G4 PowerBooks before the long awaited mythical G5 PB (which I strongly believe (read hope) will be introduced in January.

But not to ship until early March. Which would maybe make a RevB G5 PB to be released in Sept. 2005.

Thus this future date is when I will jump on the G5 bandwagon.

[aswitcher]

How many times does it have to be said...it is physically impossible for dual core PowerBooks to appear at MWSF.

Hickman


But when they do appear in the G5 (2006?) it will be all about DUAL DUAL processors ;)

[Buggy]

I appreciate the honesty. Apple used to keep all updates so secret that you were always afraid of purchasing... maybe tomorrow, maybe the day after, maybe next week...

I have accepted that technology moves at a certain speed. Sure I want the future now. But hey we only have so much time on this planet. Waiting for the future at the expense of the moment,.. is just too sad.

To that. Apple is not going under as a company because you have to wait a couple of months for the next computer and when that computer does arrive it will be good. It will be as good as the computers are now. (if time is relative then so are computers). So right now the best computer I can get is an apple powerbook (too bad I already have one :)

relax, and look at clouds once and awhile. they do more for your spirit then a monitor.

[El Duderino]

being the college student i am, i plan on selling my current 3 month old toshiba tablet PC and just leave the money in my bank account untill i absolutly have to buy one. i wouldnt even bother getting a differant laptop but unfortunatly Visual Communication Design absolutly requires all of their students to buy an Apple wtf. atleast i can wait and put it off as long as possible

[apeman88]

New 2.3 Xserves within 10 days

PB G5 at MWSF 2005

it will happen

[wizard]

Neither of the e600 chips are even sampling until the second half of 2005. There will NOT be a dual-core PowerBook until at least then. The most we could hope for would be a MPC7448 based Powerbook.

do realize that the 7448 is an e600 cored device.

I see Apple going the single core route with the sister processor of the dual cored chip first. This will be followed up with a dual core upgrade 6 months after the single core release. That is if they go G4 at all.

It is still an open question with respect to IBM getting the G5 poertable ready this year. If they could pull it off and possibly offer Apple some SOC features I could see Apple going the 64 bit route. At least on one portable anyways. Apple could very well split the PowerBook line between single 64bit devices and dual core 32 bit devices. It would be interstig to see where the market would go given those two choices.

Give the dual core implementation extended addressing abilities and I could see myself going the dual core route.
Dave



Maybe we will get a better GPU, bigger HDD, Higher resolutions screens, etc. But, I amnot getting my hopes up for anything spectacular for the PowerBook at MWSF.

edit: After further review, even the MPC7448 will not sample until 2005.

Hickman

[jouster]

I appreciate the honesty. Apple used to keep all updates so secret that you were always afraid of purchasing...

Assuming you were part of the tiny minority of iBook buyers that gave a crap about specs.

[Ambrose Chapel]

my girlfriend just got back from a talk given by someone from apple at MIT. the first question from the audience was, "when will there be a powerbook g5? do you have any idea?" and he replied: "yes. next question."

[Neuro]

I was actually quite interested in Apple's iBook revision because:

1) Consumers have realised that current cpus are fast enough for almost all applications. So, the new iBook is actually a cheaper alternative to the Centrino notebooks (now that it has built in wi-fi). Centrino laptops are all about battery life and connectivity. Same market, lower price, better software.

2) The iBook gfx chip is nothing special, but good enough to play games and better than integrated PC video which is a bit naff.

3) The Centrino portables that are faster than iBooks tend to be ugly and more expensive.

I think as a philosophy, the iBook really works - it's your ultra portable computer and it's actually better than any PC laptop in the same category, but if you want a portable desktop replacement, Apple can't currently match many laptop PCs with their Powerbook range.

The iBook is actually the most compelling product!

[Some_Big_Spoon]

they miss out damn near every year. why should this one be different?

My guess is Nov 16/23, right before the mad rush of the holiday shopping season. can Apple really afford to miss out on another peak shopping period like they did with the iMac's in sept? They missed out on back-to-school purchases, then ....

At least, bump up the current line high ends:

15" PB/1.8GHZ/8 X SD/256 VRAM/9800 Mobility

[GroundLoop]

do realize that the 7448 is an e600 cored device.


Yes I do realize that all three are e600. But if you take three seconds to look at the architectures of the chips, the 7448 is completely different from the other two. It has always puzzled me why they classify the 7448 as an e600.

Hickman

[SiliconAddict]

This is a positive development. What exactly is the problem?

Sorry but only an eternal Mac optimist could turn a 9 month dry spell in updates (And come on even the speedbump updates are pathetic.) into something positive. This is bad news for anyone who is looking for real performance in an Apple laptop. I was once again at Apple's store playing around with their anemic 17" Powerbook waiting for my movie to start. Rebooted to get a clean start on everything. I shouldn't have to drum my fingers four-five times on the table waiting for iTunes to open. Walk over to the iMac and its not lightening fast but way faster then the PowerBook line. No more excuses. The *book line is exactly where the PowerMac was pre G5: a sad line of products in much need of some TLC. Unfortunately Apple’s attention has been on the iPod, PowerMac, and iMac. We’re probably going to see an eMac update before we see a PowerBook update.

[Duane Martin]

Yeah, I am going to have to check out the source of this for myself. Because Apple was not building my BTO Powerbook when I ordered it just over a week ago (10 days, no activity, able to cancel), and a friend of a friend who has met someone from Apple in a previous life assured me there would be a speed bump of the Powerbook within two weeks. So, I personally will wait until next Tuesday, or maybe even Oct. 30th. If no announcement, I will place the BTO order again and hope somebody at Apple is in the mood to fill my order.

Okay, I know I am kidding myself. But I just have to believe...

[Stella]

It isn't much of a shock is it? What will Apple update with? There isn't anything..

G5 aren't ready for laptops. It won't be until next year until Freescale releases the next batch of faster G4s... So, what are Apple going to update the PowerBooks with?

Larger memory, bigger hard disc etc. Well.. you can buy to order.

Without faster processors for speed bumps there doesn't seem to be much of a point of releasing new machines.

One other thing.. if Apple say NO POWERBOOKS, they REALLY mean that. They said that with G5 Laptops and iPod 60 Gig devices. If Apple would loose too much creditable / trust if they suddenly did U-Turn.

[Poff]

Unfortunately Apple’s attention has been on the iPod, PowerMac, and iMac. We’re probably going to see an eMac update before we see a PowerBook update.

There doesn't seem to be much Apple can do about it. Add dual processors?

I totally agree with you, though.. The powerbook-line looks pathetic. Macs aren't known to be fast computers, but these powerbooks are becoming slow and overpriced.

I bet Steve is pulling his hair, though.. Because he knows better than anyone that the only thing making pro-users buy the powerbook these days, is brand loyality.

[GroundLoop]

We’re probably going to see an eMac update before we see a PowerBook update.

We are guaranteed to get a new eMac before a PB update. In fact, the eMac will be updated before Thanksgiving.

Hickman

[Stella]

@SiliconAddict - I saw your quote:
-I have a new ThinkPad T42 from my company. I also have a $3,200 interest free loan from them ready and waiting to go on a 17" G5 PowerBook. When Apple? When?


Apple will release a 17" PB G5 one day after you decide to spend your money on a G4 i/Power Book.
:-)

[Giantred]

This is the same as the lull of the Powermac, but unfortunatley I dont
think we will be getitng the G5 anytime soon. Our only way is to pray, and pray hard; so get into the spirit and bow your head:p.

There are few flaws with the releases of today. Apple should have waited for MWSF to release the new iBook (assuming the necessary update of the powerbooks.) If the were to wait people would view the iBook update as more substantial, because there would be a bigger void between the two product lines. Unlike now when I view the 14" iBook and 12" powerbook to be the same computer. Since Vram is the only noticable change.


Corey
P.S. Was I the only one who looked arround the Apple website after seeing the iBook on the homepage for a few minutes, asuming they also updated the powerbooks?

[yoda13]

Sorry but only an eternal Mac optimist could turn a 9 month dry spell in updates (And come on even the speedbump updates are pathetic.) into something positive. This is bad news for anyone who is looking for real performance in an Apple laptop. I was once again at Apple's store playing around with their anemic 17" Powerbook waiting for my movie to start. Rebooted to get a clean start on everything. I shouldn't have to drum my fingers four-five times on the table waiting for iTunes to open. Walk over to the iMac and its not lightening fast but way faster then the PowerBook line. No more excuses. The *book line is exactly where the PowerMac was pre G5: a sad line of products in much need of some TLC. Unfortunately Apple’s attention has been on the iPod, PowerMac, and iMac. We’re probably going to see an eMac update before we see a PowerBook update.

2 gig of RAM helps the computer to feel a lot snappeir, as does the faster hard disk option. I actually scored a 131.21 on xBench with this thing, which isn't much slower than the new iMac that guy posted w/ a month or so back, ( I do know w/ enough memory, that the iMac will kick my butt, though) I agree that it is time for a G5 or a dual core G4, but I don't think that they are as bad as you say they are, sorry just had to reply as I really like mine. :p

[ijimk]

Wow this sucks i was hoping to get an idea on whether or not the update would be a big video card update. Well i guess i will have to wait and see. Damn this hurts apple big time with x-mas right around the corner. :(

[Furrybeagle]

I was once again at Apple's store playing around with their anemic 17" Powerbook waiting for my movie to start. Rebooted to get a clean start on everything. I shouldn't have to drum my fingers four-five times on the table waiting for iTunes to open. Walk over to the iMac and its not lightening fast but way faster then the PowerBook line.

Woulnd't this be due to the fact that the HD is probably 5400RPM (probably 4200RPM), while the iMac is running at 7200RPM.

Hard drives for iMac G5 are offered in 80GB, 160GB or 250GB capacities.* Options depend on the iMac G5 model you choose. All iMac G5 models include a standard Serial ATA hard drive (data transfers up to 1.5 Gigabits per second). All hard drives run at 7,200 revolutions per minute (rpm).

and

12-inch PowerBook G4 :
The 12-inch PowerBook G4 comes standard with a 60GB hard drive that operates at 4,200 revolutions per minute (rpm).* An 80GB drive option running at 5400 rpm is also available for higher speed drive access.

15-inch PowerBook G4:
Hard drives for the 15-inch PowerBook G4 are offered in 60GB or 80GB capacities and run at 4,200 revolutions per minute (rpm).* An 80GB drive option running at 5400 rpm is also available for higher speed drive access.

17-inch PowerBook G4:
The 17-inch PowerBook G4 comes with an 80GB hard drive that operates at 4,200 rpm. An 80GB hard drive operating at 5,400 rpm is also available as an upgrade option.*


When I finally upgraded the 4200RPM HD on my wintel laptop, my performance almost doubled in loading times.

I imagine your waiting on the PowerBook is due to the fact that is an old HD on a slower HD connection (whatever the Apple equivalent of ATA, Serial-ATA, etc. is, if there is one).

Either way though the PowerBook line is kind of dead right now. It will be almost 9 months before there may be an update announced, and we don't even know what this update will be even be! Thats looking at 10 to 11 months before new (which is a loose term) PB models may start shipping. :(

Arrrgghh, have to deal with a 2 year old Dell laptop (that weighs a ton) for 5 more months!!! At least it can play Doom III, and there are plenty of good games coming out soon... ;)

Starts waiting for Halo 2 :p

[Eastend]

2 gig of RAM helps the computer to feel a lot snappeir, as does the faster hard disk option. I actually scored a 131.21 on xBench with this thing, which isn't much slower than the new iMac that guy posted w/ a month or so back, ( I do know w/ enough memory, that the iMac will kick my butt, though) I agree that it is time for a G5 or a dual core G4, but I don't think that they are as bad as you say they are, sorry just had to reply as I really like mine. :p

My Dual 2.5 G5 scored just over 248 and that's about average for this machine, the gap keeps getting wider and wider between the pro line towers and books. I need a new book also, but until Apple really makes a 15 or 20 per cent jump I'm not buying. I'll just hang onto my old 500 Ti (scored around 59). Can you believe it, I still love this old PowerBook.

Brian

[yoda13]

My Dual 2.5 G5 scored just over 248 and that's about average for this machine, the gap keeps getting wider and wider between the pro line towers and books. I need a new book also, but until Apple really makes a 15 or 20 per cent jump I'm not buying. I'll just hang onto my old 500 Ti (scored around 59). Can you believe it, I still love this old PowerBook.

Brian

That old TiBook is an awesome machine. I used to have one just like it, and it is now serving my nephew up at grad school in Boston. It might be the best laptop I have ever owned. Can't comment on this one yet, as I haven't had it but two weeks or so.

[stephenli]

Comeon Apple, give us a faster Powerbook...
I dont want to purchase 1.5Ghz G4 PB in the same price as a Dual 2.0Ghz G5...... :(

[Furrybeagle]

Maybe there is something in the wording. Maybe...there'll be a price drop. No...it has to maintain a higher place over the iBook. Maybe a speed bump...no, he said the current model. Or did he say line. Maybe line means that they will update the processor but keep the form factor...

OK, I am just reaching here. Just crazy speculation

[macnulty]

I wonder what Apple's Powerbook inventory and/or their supply pipeline looks like. They may need to clear some shelves somewhere.

[weezer160]

if no release until 2005, they will have to drop prices on the current line up. who'd want to buy a 8 or 9 month pb at it's original price when a revision is expected. in other words, apple has to make the current line up of pbs more attractive price wise until their next update, which should be jan. 2005.

[Steven1621]

Mac World San Francisco Jan. '05! Keynote....new powerbooks released...crowd cheers...next on the line-up iLife '05....60GB photo iPods...crowd cheers again...everyone in attendence receives a free ipod! :D

i don't think they would do just a speed bump and other minor improvements just for a macworld. that is normal stuff. ipod and ilife updates, are definitely possibilities.

[SiliconAddict]

There doesn't seem to be much Apple can do about it. Add dual processors?


The problem I have is why when IBM was working on the G5 for the desktop didn't Apple start thinking and working on something for their PowerBooks? We are talking years here. Don't think that by now something could have been created for the PowerBook at this point. I would love to know what the heck was Apple's thinking when it came to further progression of the PowerBook. What? Did they think Moto would continue to deliver?!? They should have been realistic and saw the writing on the wall during the development of the G5 for the PowerMac. So here we are fall of 04 with the same predicament they were in with their PowerMac line in Spring of 03. Apple is in control of their product line not Moto. There are always options and if that meant going back to IBM and asking for a revamped G3....*shrugs*

[utilizer]

I was thinking today of the enhancements made to the iBook and wondered if anyone really could come up with a solid reason to buy the Powerbook, over say an iMac or even the new iBook, given the substantial price disparities. I sensed an update to quickly follow suit to the Powerbook lineup.
Then I wondered, what in the world could they show at MWSF?? (besides the rampant rumors of a "headless" video Mac!)
NOTHING! I know the 60 GB iPod will be here next week when U2 comes out and the G5 probably won't be updated until summer 2005 at WWDC. So that leaves the dual-processor Powerbooks to look forward to. Look for a new form factor, and NOT dual core processors. We'll see if I'm right! :D

[fastred]

being the college student i am, i plan on selling my current 3 month old toshiba tablet PC and just leave the money in my bank account untill i absolutly have to buy one. i wouldnt even bother getting a differant laptop but unfortunatly Visual Communication Design absolutly requires all of their students to buy an Apple wtf. atleast i can wait and put it off as long as possible

You got into College with spelling like that? :confused: and if you object so strongly to "having" to buy an Apple... why are you posting on these boards?

Weird...

[Mr. Anderson]

Actually, there might be a lot more to this.

The dual core G4s offered by Freescale do not have the same pins as the current G4s. Its a different chip - only the single CPU has the same set of pins.

So, it might mean that Apple is going to wait for a rework of the mobo on the PowerMac.....

At that point, do you rework for a dual core G4 or do you wait for a G5? You have rework the mobo regardless, what's the best choice and what are they going to use in the future?

I'm thinking this might bode well for a G5 - delayed, sure, but a G5 none the less - and a CPU that will be going dual core eventually anyway.

D

[TWinbrook46636]

I sense a pattern here...


Macworld SF 2001
- Introduction of the Titanium PowerBook G4

Macworld SF 2002
- Meh.

Macworld SF 2003
- Introduction of the Aluminum PowerBook G4

Macworld SF 2004
- Meh.

Macworld SF 2005
- Introduction of the PowerBook G5

[aswitcher]

I sense a pattern here...


Macworld SF 2001
- Introduction of the Titanium PowerBook G4

Macworld SF 2002
- Meh.

Macworld SF 2003
- Introduction of the Aluminum PowerBook G4

Macworld SF 2004
- Meh.

Macworld SF 2005
- Introduction of the PowerBook G5


Maybe...I just keep thinking about the new iMac and all the cooling etc it needs to squeeze the G5 into 2" thick...Fans drain power...G4s are already a bit hot on the lap...

Then we also have a G5 chip supply problem. Would new PB with G5 at 1.5 GHz only really cut it...I would expect people will want to see at least 1.8 and preferably 2 GHz.

So I think its and outside chance at best even with an entirely new case design for maximuim cooling etc

[Squire]

I was actually quite interested in Apple's iBook revision because:

1) Consumers have realised that current cpus are fast enough for almost all applications. So, the new iBook is actually a cheaper alternative to the Centrino notebooks (now that it has built in wi-fi). Centrino laptops are all about battery life and connectivity. Same market, lower price, better software.

2) The iBook gfx chip is nothing special, but good enough to play games and better than integrated PC video which is a bit naff.

3) The Centrino portables that are faster than iBooks tend to be ugly and more expensive.

I think as a philosophy, the iBook really works - it's your ultra portable computer and it's actually better than any PC laptop in the same category, but if you want a portable desktop replacement, Apple can't currently match many laptop PCs with their Powerbook range.

The iBook is actually the most compelling product!

Hmmm...good points. I wonder if I would have purchased an Apple portable had I known about either (a) the iBook revision, or (b) the lack of Powerbook revision. Probably. Instead, Sony got my 2 grand for their little 13.3" beauty. I keep reminding my wife, though, that it's her computer and that mine will be introduced some time next year. ;)

Unfortunately Apple’s attention has been on the iPod, PowerMac, and iMac. We’re probably going to see an eMac update before we see a PowerBook update.

SiliconAddict, I can understand your frustration but it's not like they aren't motivated. The Powerbook line is very profitable (the most?) so I bet they're trying to overcome the pitfalls as fast as they can. It's probably a little more complicated than simply throwing a few more engineers at the problem.

Squire

<edit> SiliconAddict, your other post (#67) clarified your position and made a really good point. I agree.

[Furrybeagle]

if no release until 2005, they will have to drop prices on the current line up. who'd want to buy a 8 or 9 month pb at it's original price when a revision is expected. in other words, apple has to make the current line up of pbs more attractive price wise until their next update, which should be jan. 2005.

they can't. it would kill prices of the ibook. which i would say is more likely to be purcashed as a holiday present. the ibook is a more casual thing, and its not like if you want one, you need it that second. On the other hand, the PB is the kind of the thing that is nearing expensive for a holiday present, definately used by professionals, and when they need a computer, they just get it, rather than getting it for some special occaison, like christmas or whatever you may celebrate

I was thinking today of the enhancements made to the iBook and wondered if anyone really could come up with a solid reason to buy the Powerbook, over say an iMac or even the new iBook, given the substantial price disparities.

Comparing a notebook to desktop is kind of hard, since they are meant for two different things. but the whole thing with the ibook is kinda strange, since they ibook 14" is almost equivalent to the 12" PB, except for maybe another different display output port on the pb, and the aluminum case. they are otherwise the same. still if you want the best mac that you can carry around at this moment, you would get the pb. its just in a place right now where you get it if you need it, since it does have advantages over the ibook (specifically from the 15" and 17"), just not enough to compensate for the price gap, which is the unsolvable problem.

this period of no-buy for the pb can't last long. and TWinbrook46636 found a good pattern. we're certain to see something pb related at macworld sf 2005 (cant do imac or powermac, still too new, emac updated soon from now, ibook just updated and too new for major overhaul, ipod revision not big enough, so its either major software/os releases, or pb overhaul). i'm guessing and hoping for a pb overhaul, as everyone probably is. :p

[NEENAHBOY]

Personally, I don't think there'll be any PB updates until holiday season 2005. I think everyone in this thread is underestimating just how difficult it must be to cram a G5 processor in an enclosure that small and still manage to keep the temperature reasonable. I just hope they don't rush it out the door, otherwise we might have some explosions on our hands.

[earthtoandy]

my girlfriend just got back from a talk given by someone from apple at MIT. the first question from the audience was, "when will there be a powerbook g5? do you have any idea?" and he replied: "yes. next question."
heheh thats great. JAN 05!!! lets hope. otherwise i will die.. i dont wanna wait much longer but i dont wanna buy in with an update coming relatively soon.

[itsa]

MacCentral reports (http://www.macworld.com/news/2004/10/19/ibook/index.php) on the new iBooks that were released today and provides quotes from David Moody, vice president of Worldwide Mac Product Marketing. Moody lets us know that PowerBooks will not see updates before the end of the holidays:

Well... now we know just about how long we need to wait before buying a new notebook.

[nagromme]

I'm betting this is going to hit Apple's bottom line hard this fall and rightly so. Once again this just proves that Apple is incapable of juggling multiple product lines without leaving something to wither on the vine.

No more excuses. The *book line is exactly where the PowerMac was pre G5: a sad line of products in much need of some TLC. Unfortunately Apple’s attention has been on the iPod, PowerMac, and iMac. We’re probably going to see an eMac update before we see a PowerBook update.
Do you think it's possible that instead of Apple overlooking the PowerBook by sheer incompetence and lack of "attention," it might instead be an issue with the chips they have to use?

Perhaps, strange as it may seem, a PowerBook G5 isn't possible today without making a Wintel-style giant, thick, and heavy brick?

I agree 100% that the PowerBook is where the PowerMac was, and that it's a shame. These things happen. They are temporary. Meanwhile, if you need portability, you have no better choice so enjoy your PowerBook. I love mine, and it's last year's model.

[nagromme]

I hope PBG5's don't come out until late in '05. Because I don't want to be tempted away from my resolve not to buy until a Power Mac G6! :D

If the rumor is true that the 12" PBG4 will be replaced by a 13" widescreen G5 (1152x768?) it will be very hard for me to control myself.

[Stella]

I wonder how many times he has been asked that question. He's probably sick and tired of it!


my girlfriend just got back from a talk given by someone from apple at MIT. the first question from the audience was, "when will there be a powerbook g5? do you have any idea?" and he replied: "yes. next question."

[belair]

Is apple changing its policy?

This is the second time, after the imac, that apple makes a statement about a product release before it gets released. I actually like this king of honesty. The consumer who needs a Pb now, will buy it now and he won't have to wait till the next magic thuesday that never shows up.

Apple should definetely make some more announcement like this about its products.

[Sped]

My guess is Nov 16/23, right before the mad rush of the holiday shopping season.

I doubt it. Powerbooks are not Christmas presents. Professionals update hardware as required throughout the year. Now, for those of you like me that like to have more power than you really need, you may be disappointed but you shouldn't be surprised.

Let's hope for a dual core G4 PB in January or maybe even the elusive G5 PB.

[aafuss1]

I agree with the honest comment regarding the wait for an PB update that Apple's David Moody stated to MacWorld -it's too early for a revision, if faster CPU's aren't out yet.

[nero007]

This makes me feel great about my early summer 17" 1.5 purchase!

[belair]

This makes me feel great about my early summer 17" 1.5 purchase!

And rightly so! :)

[sw1tcher]

I'm betting this is going to hit Apple's bottom line hard this fall and rightly so. Once again this just proves that Apple is incapable of juggling multiple product lines without leaving something to wither on the vine.

I don't think so. The new iBooks will/should help pick up the sales slack from the PowerBooks, if there are any.

[daddy-mojo]

Mac World San Francisco Jan. '05! Keynote....new powerbooks released...crowd cheers...next on the line-up iLife '05....60GB photo iPods...crowd cheers again...everyone in attendence receives a free ipod! :D

every new powerbook will come with tiger pre-installed, because they still won't be shipping till June! :D

[earthtoandy]

i think we could really be surprised here. this may be a time when they have something up their sleeve. or at least i hope.

[nesbitt_a]

If MWSF 05 brings the powerbook g5 line, people would be mad to buy first edition. I bought a first revision g4 15.2 1.25ghz and it was riddled with problems - white spots, overheating, lid that didnt stay shut, dvd-rw drive that wouldnt read dvds! I for one have the money sitting waiting for a powerbook g5 - but wont be parting with it until at least revision A.

Roll on June!


Andy.

[earthtoandy]

so is your suggestion that they should skip the first rev and go straight to the second rev? :D :D

[nesbitt_a]

so is your suggestion that they should skip rev a and just go to rev b? :D :D

I'll be doing my research before buying is all I'm saying. Maybe wait til revision B before upgrading! :)

[swissmann]

I know a lot of people are wishing for a PowerBook G5 (I'm one of them) but does this news really surprise anyone? I think we might see one by MWSF but wouldn't be surprised if it is as far off as almost a year from now.

[Seanb23]

Do you think it's possible that instead of Apple overlooking the PowerBook by sheer incompetence and lack of "attention," it might instead be an issue with the chips they have to use?

Perhaps, strange as it may seem, a PowerBook G5 isn't possible today without making a Wintel-style giant, thick, and heavy brick?

I agree 100% that the PowerBook is where the PowerMac was, and that it's a shame. These things happen. They are temporary. Meanwhile, if you need portability, you have no better choice so enjoy your PowerBook. I love mine, and it's last year's model.

I love my 2003 1Ghz Pbook for what it is and, well, was...a well built machine that rarely if ever fails, and is easy to use for tasks large and small. It was pretty close to state of the art then...but now, I look around and see well built high end custom PC laptops that run XP Pro without a flaw or virus, ever, and run the same applications I do--high end audio editing stuff with more or less equally well optimized dual platform options--much more quickly than my Powerbook, leaving the Windoze machines free to run about twice as many high CPU load aps AT ONCE as the slightly more expensive Powerbooks...

...and I just start to wonder...

If many OS X diehards out there like myself would be damn happy to see a heavyweight Apple laptop ? You know, a 2 1/2 or 3 inch thick metal monster with either a liquid system or a bevy of fans inside to cool a mightily fast G5, dual core G4, or dual/dual G5, for that matter...whatever it takes to run modern, high end media applications super-efficiently on the OS of our choice, OS X ? Something that will stay highly useable and relevant for 3 or 4 years ?

I like the slim 17" model, you know, all fantasy aside. It's never seemed too heavy or awkward in size to me, quite the opposite, even...I would happily tote one twice as thick around in a heavy industrial type case...really...

An industrial strength operating system deserves an industrial strength laptop, in every sense of the word...and I think lots of people would eagerly go for one running OS X !!!

[Davito]

Sorry for my ignorance, but when exactly is "the holyday season" ? I guess this refers US scholar holidays which I am not familiar with... :confused:

[belair]

Sorry for my ignorance, but when exactly is "the holyday season" ? I guess this refers US scholar holidays which I am not familiar with... :confused:

It's pretty much the same here in europe as in the states. Holiday season is around christmas and New Year. You know when everybody is on holiday AND in a shoping frenzy for gifts. A shoping frenzy all companys look forward to with great anticipation.

[Diatribe]

Actually, it's going to accelerate my purchase. I needed to buy a 17" PB before Thanksgiving and was holding out for an update. With this news I'll order now so that I have a month longer to enjoy it...

It's not that the current ones are bad (despite all the complaining about the lack of a G5, I'm perfectly happy with a G4). However, I didn't want to pay extra for something like 128 VRAM if it came standard on a newer model...

Nope the 15" and the 17" are not bad... the 12" is, that's the problem.

[belair]

Nope the 15" and the 17" are not bad... the 12" is, that's the problem.

I think that apple would have revised its Pb line if it would have been possible. But the industry has hit the wall. If apple had the choice I am shure there would be a Pb G5 and a dualcore G4.
They pushed the ibook because they could, and they did not push the Pb because they couldn't.

[Diatribe]

I think that apple would have revised its Pb line if it would have been possible. But the industry has hit the wall. If apple had the choice I am shure there would be a Pb G5 and a dualcore G4.
They pushed the ibook because they could, and they did not push the Pb because they couldn't.

I understand that completely... but why not upgrade the 12" to differentiate it from the iBook? Who in their right minds would buy a 12" PB now?

[duklaprague]

i think a lot of you guys are pros when it comes to apple.

i was a switcher to apple in january - to a 15" G4 PB - and absolutely love it - it has been an absolute joy, and gets used every day for email, internet, and iLife gets a fair bit of use, as does macromedia studio for some web design stuff.

even since then, there's been a revision - here in the uk the prices fell by a fair bit as well as an improved spec. i know the G5 PB is currently apple's holy grail, but is the really languishing? i would hope our G4 will last a good few years. if you're an absolute power user and feel the need to upgrade every revision, then fair enough. but the current PBs are still great machines, and i wouldn't have thought that apple are suffering too much in terms of sales if it takes even 12 months to revise.

it seems that since january apple have been releasing loads of new stuff. and jobs did say that there was plenty of great stuff for this 20th anniversary year - so maybe something special will come at the end of it (or at least at the WWDC in Jan) - and what would be more special right now than a G5 PB?

Iain

[MacSA]

Nope the 15" and the 17" are not bad... the 12" is, that's the problem.

That's why the recent 12" iBook upgrade wasn't that spectacular. A speedbump - great, but the same 30G hardrive same graphics cards, same memory it's had for the last year. I suspect if the Powerbooks had been updated around the same time we would have seen something a little more dramaitc in terms of iBook, particularly the 12", upgrades.

[Diatribe]

That's why the recent 12" iBook upgrade wasn't that spectacular. A speedbump - great, but the same 30G hardrive same graphics cards, same memory it's had for the last year. I suspect if the Powerbooks had been updated around the same time we would have seen something a little more dramaitc in terms of iBook, particularly the 12", upgrades.

The only differences now are:

- DVI-Out
- 33Mhz more frontside bus
- better graphics card
- 5400rpm option
- SD option

But... you get the iBook for $500 less. If you compare the 12" to the 12" then the PB sucks. If you compare it with the SD option and the 14" iBook with the SD then the difference is only $250, which is reasonable for the features you get.

[aswitcher]

The only differences now are:

- DVI-Out
- 33Mhz more frontside bus
- better graphics card
- 5400rpm option
- SD option

But... you get the iBook for $500 less. If you compare the 12" to the 12" then the PB sucks. If you compare it with the SD option and the 14" iBook with the SD then the difference is only $250, which is reasonable for the features you get.

Those have signficant performance improvements...

+ Screen spanning...

[bellis1]

I need to replace a rev A 17" PB. It was stolen and I have the insurance money but don't have any other computer so I need it now (like last week). I was ready to slap down $3500 on a new PB 17" but am now at a loss. I need the screen space and portability is not as much as an issue as when I originally purchased it. For the price of a top of the line PB (yet to be seen) I can now get an iMac and iBook or buy an outdated and PB. I guess I'm not the prosumer I thought I was. I sure hope the new PB will be worth the wait. I really think Apple is going to go big and show us that G5 PB in Jan arriving in March. We can complain about the heat issues then. On a side note, does anyone have any idea if the Apple Stores have iMacs in stock at the store or is the wait 3-4 weeks as if you ordered it online. And can they add in memory and a larger hard drive in the store. Looks like i don't get my PB but a G5 imac. I can't really complain.

[Diatribe]

Those have signficant performance improvements...

+ Screen spanning...

Which ones are you talking about?

My point being that I think $500 for those features is too much. $250 on the other hand is ok.

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Hi all, I have a 17" PowerBook and I think it's absolutely great. It serves me well as a portable editing machine. But... I have to admit that the PB is out of place in the current Apple Hardware offerings. The new iBook has closed the gap on the portable range and it no longer appears as a pro machine in comparison. The Dual G5 2.5 units are a huge step ahead in terms of power but not in price so the PowerBook looks like a confused product at the moment.

The pro price is still there but it is way too close to iBook in terms of spec to justify this and too far away from the pro desktops.

To make this machine fill the pro status again, it needs a G5 update which can operate Tiger in March-June 2005. This isn't likely to happen too soon but I dont even think a G4 update would launch it back into the pro realms. It needs the new technology, not just simple upgrades.

(Saying this, I would like to point that I will purchase any new updates that are released because I am a sucker for Apples). :)

[Windowlicker]

My guess is Nov 16/23, right before the mad rush of the holiday shopping season. can Apple really afford to miss out on another peak shopping period like they did with the iMac's in sept? They missed out on back-to-school purchases, then ....

At least, bump up the current line high ends:

15" PB/1.8GHZ/8 X SD/256 VRAM/9800 Mobility

if they don't have much tech to put in there, there's no reason to update. They do need to improve the CPU speed. 1.8GHz won't bet there just yet. 256mb vram? I don't think so. 128mb could be ok though. as for RAM, 512 should finally be made the default on PBs.

[deepkid]

That old TiBook is an awesome machine. I used to have one just like it, and it is now serving my nephew up at grad school in Boston. It might be the best laptop I have ever owned. Can't comment on this one yet, as I haven't had it but two weeks or so.

I'm still happily using my 550 Mhz Tibook bought shortly after 9/11. Like a previous poster said, it's amazing what more RAM and faster hard drives can do for performance.

When I needed more power to render video, I simply bought a refurbished 1.6 Ghz G5 powermac from Apple for $1,299 back in July. After tossing in a GB more of ram, it is a wonderful interim solution to buying another powerbook or dual powermac, which is the long-term goal. It's certainly better than my upgraded G4 500 powermac, orginally a G3 266MT with a 66Mhz sys bus.

I can get work done much faster, and wait a while longer to see how near-term powerbook and powermac developments progress. It turns out that the 1.6 Ghz G5 turned out to be more appealing than the 1.8 Ghz that was just released because my sys bus is 800Mhz and I've had a few months use already.

The majority of people likely to buy ibooks do not visit mac rumor sites, so Apple has made an intelligent business decision by lowering the price and upgrading them before the X-mas holidays. Like it or not, they will convince a lot of people strolling into Apple stores along with those estatic with their iPods to consider moving on to one of Apple's computers.

Regarding powerbooks, sales are actually UP over last year this time so not having a G5 powerbook right now isn't a mayday for Apple. From their Q4 report on October 13th: "The company sold 836,000 Macs all totaled. Laptops accounted for 45 percent of all Mac sales (in excess of 450,000 units), with iBook sales up 75 percent year-over-year and PowerBook sales up 21 percent."

If you need more speed today, consider all of your options. There is also refurbed and used if you hesitate to buy a new one because you feel that an update is imminent but not immediate.

[JFreak]

Would new PB with G5 at 1.5 GHz only really cut it...I would expect people will want to see at least 1.8 and preferably 2 GHz.

no. the G5 is not as efficient (clock-for-clock) than the G4, which is quite a good chip that is only crippled by the slow fsb. there are three alternatives:

1) moto finds a way to use faster bus and the next release introduces a moderate speed bump together with faster bus.
2) apple finds a way to use a 1.8GHz G5 cool enough in a powerbook, having the same specs than the new imac and the single-cpu powermac.
3) we will see a dual-core monster which hopefully don't have crippled fsb.

...and... of course, there is always the non-alternative of apple still using the slow fsb and put in a 1.75GHz chip, maybe adding L2 cache trying to make up for the bottleneck ;(

anyway, the G5 will have to be faster (in clock) than the G4 to make the update worth it.

[lmalave]

Not making that statement would have killed off any sales of the current Powerbooks you mean. Now that people realize that there won't be an update until January at the earliest, there is no sense in waiting around now. As for the eMacs, we'll probably see a quiet update sometime within the next month, probably to a 1.5 GHz G4 I'd think.

Or more to the point, not making that statement would have dampened demand for the new iBooks, since people might be holding out for a new PowerBook instead (especially the 12" model).

Keep in mind the purpose for this revision is really the holiday shopping season. And as a "consumer" product, the iBook is a more likely candidate for a gift than the "professional" PowerBooks. I think it's a great move, if only for the price drop alone. The price drop is targeted squarely at the iPod owner who's now open to the idea of getting a Mac. And one that would be color-coordinated with the iPod, no less. I think breaking the sub-$1000 barrier is important psychologically. I could definitely see more students asking their parents for an iBook now. I think sales figures are going to show a significant bump in demand for the iBooks, and just a steady decline in the PowerBooks that would have happened anyways (similar to the decline in the PowerMac G4s before the G5 came out).

[locovaca]

Those have signficant performance improvements...

+ Screen spanning...

And how easily people forget that, without an expensive Analog to Digital converter, you can't use an iBook with any apple display...

[MrMoto]

I appreciate the honesty. Apple used to keep all updates so secret that you were always afraid of purchasing... maybe tomorrow, maybe the day after, maybe next week...

I have accepted that technology moves at a certain speed. Sure I want the future now. But hey we only have so much time on this planet. Waiting for the future at the expense of the moment,.. is just too sad.

To that. Apple is not going under as a company because you have to wait a couple of months for the next computer and when that computer does arrive it will be good. It will be as good as the computers are now. (if time is relative then so are computers). So right now the best computer I can get is an apple powerbook (too bad I already have one :)

relax, and look at clouds once and awhile. they do more for your spirit then a monitor.


wow, a spark of sanity in this whole computer-hope mania.

[aswitcher]

Which ones are you talking about?

My point being that I think $500 for those features is too much. $250 on the other hand is ok.

I guess I am saying that there are still some significant advantages of the power over the i book line...but $500USD is a lot.

[Stella]

Those have signficant performance improvements...

+ Screen spanning...

iBooks can screen span ( unofficially with hack ! )

[thatwendigo]

1) moto finds a way to use faster bus and the next release introduces a moderate speed bump together with faster bus.
2) apple finds a way to use a 1.8GHz G5 cool enough in a powerbook, having the same specs than the new imac and the single-cpu powermac.
3) we will see a dual-core monster which hopefully don't have crippled fsb.

Despite what naysayers are trumpeting at the moment:
1) The MPC7448, which is Freescale's next discrete 74xx core, will have a 1.8ghz core clock and a 200mhz FSB while only displacing 10 watts. This is actually lower power and higher speed, all around, than the 1.5ghz 7447A that is currently in the PowerBook, and probably only requires a modification of the system controller.
2) This is ridiculous. The 1.8ghz G5 consumes 25.6 watts at typical usage, and something like 38 watts at peak usage. While PowerTune is implemented in the 90nm 970fx, it's only a benefit when the chip isn't actively in use, doing nothing to halt the consumption when it's being pushed.
3) Freescale has plans for the second part of next year (if you listen to some), though they might just be taking things conservatively at this point. The MPC8461D is a dual-core e600 with 1MB of L2 cache for each processor (2MB total, actively shared between them on a low-latency bus), two 128-bit AltiVec units (G4s and G5s have one, and the G5's is inferior), on-die memory control that can use DDR or DDR2 up to 667mhz (so there's no FSB, as it's traditionally used), 4 on-die hardware MACs to speed networking, on-die encryption enhancements, and an expected power draw of 22 watts.

Given the massively multithreaded approach that's coming into vogue, especially with the x86 world finally catching on to the idea of using SMP and SMT to enhance performance, it makes more sense to move towards a dual-core professional line. Apple could increment the products with a 7448 in the PowerBooks and bump the 7447A at 1.5ghz down to the iBooks, then do a motherboard revamping in fall of next year to accept 8461 single-cores for iBooks and 8461D dual-cores for the PowerBooks.

Freed of the limitations of a 167mhz bus, using on-die memory control, and with true access to DDR speeds - not to mention to addition of RapidIO 1x/2x/4x (2.5Gb/s per channel) and PCI Express 1x/2x/4x/6x/8x/12x/16x(2.0Gb/s per channel) - there's basically ZERO reason to want the G5 in the portables. It just doesn't make sense, especially since there's little chance of PowerBooks or iBooks going over 4GB in memory any time soon.

[belair]

wow, a spark of sanity in this whole computer-hope mania.

Yep, very sane and very true.
Made me look out of the window for a minute.
Gray clouds and yellow trees
…

[manu chao]

Dunno, with 1M cache on those pismo. they still hold they weight. :D

1Gig Ram on a pismo :eek: /sarcastic :D

That 1MB cache on the Pismos runs at 160/200 Mhz (400/500 Mhz model), the 2GB of RAM on the current Powerbooks runs at 167 Mhz, the 512 KB of cache at 1.33/1.5 Ghz.

[GroundLoop]

Despite what naysayers are trumpeting at the moment:
1) The MPC7448, which is Freescale's next discrete 74xx core, will have a 1.8ghz core clock and a 200mhz FSB while only displacing 10 watts. This is actually lower power and higher speed, all around, than the 1.5ghz 7447A that is currently in the PowerBook, and probably only requires a modification of the system controller.
2) This is ridiculous. The 1.8ghz G5 consumes 25.6 watts at typical usage, and something like 38 watts at peak usage. While PowerTune is implemented in the 90nm 970fx, it's only a benefit when the chip isn't actively in use, doing nothing to halt the consumption when it's being pushed.
3) Freescale has plans for the second part of next year (if you listen to some), though they might just be taking things conservatively at this point. The MPC8461D is a dual-core e600 with 1MB of L2 cache for each processor (2MB total, actively shared between them on a low-latency bus), two 128-bit AltiVec units (G4s and G5s have one, and the G5's is inferior), on-die memory control that can use DDR or DDR2 up to 667mhz (so there's no FSB, as it's traditionally used), 4 on-die hardware MACs to speed networking, on-die encryption enhancements, and an expected power draw of 22 watts.

Given the massively multithreaded approach that's coming into vogue, especially with the x86 world finally catching on to the idea of using SMP and SMT to enhance performance, it makes more sense to move towards a dual-core professional line. Apple could increment the products with a 7448 in the PowerBooks and bump the 7447A at 1.5ghz down to the iBooks, then do a motherboard revamping in fall of next year to accept 8461 single-cores for iBooks and 8461D dual-cores for the PowerBooks.

Freed of the limitations of a 167mhz bus, using on-die memory control, and with true access to DDR speeds - not to mention to addition of RapidIO 1x/2x/4x (2.5Gb/s per channel) and PCI Express 1x/2x/4x/6x/8x/12x/16x(2.0Gb/s per channel) - there's basically ZERO reason to want the G5 in the portables. It just doesn't make sense, especially since there's little chance of PowerBooks or iBooks going over 4GB in memory any time soon.

I completely agree with everything that you have stated. The only issue is how soon Apple can get the 7448 into the PB line. According to Freescale, the 7448 isn't going to sample until sometime in the first half of 2005. So where does this put the PB for MWSF? Looks like the best we could hope for would be a slight bump with the 7447A or an announcement of a new line using the 7448 that will not be available until around March. Either way, the PB line looks like it will be stagnate for quite some time.

I am glad that I got my 15" 1.25 PB when I did. And I will likely wait to upgrade it until after Rev. B of a dual core architecture is available (WWDC 2006?)

Hickman

[manu chao]

Whatever the next Powerbook will have as a processor, I hope they offer the possibility to add up to 4GB of RAM (via two slots would be fine). The 1GB maximum on my 1 GHz Ti-Book is simply not enough, with hard drives being relatively slow on laptops. 2 GB might be fine for now but in a year or two I might need more (and the 2 GB sticks, currently at $500+ will be much more affordable then).

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Despite what naysayers are trumpeting at the moment:
1) The MPC7448, which is Freescale's next discrete 74xx core, will have a 1.8ghz core clock and a 200mhz FSB while only displacing 10 watts. This is actually lower power and higher speed, all around, than the 1.5ghz 7447A that is currently in the PowerBook, and probably only requires a modification of the system controller.
2) This is ridiculous. The 1.8ghz G5 consumes 25.6 watts at typical usage, and something like 38 watts at peak usage. While PowerTune is implemented in the 90nm 970fx, it's only a benefit when the chip isn't actively in use, doing nothing to halt the consumption when it's being pushed.
3) Freescale has plans for the second part of next year (if you listen to some), though they might just be taking things conservatively at this point. The MPC8461D is a dual-core e600 with 1MB of L2 cache for each processor (2MB total, actively shared between them on a low-latency bus), two 128-bit AltiVec units (G4s and G5s have one, and the G5's is inferior), on-die memory control that can use DDR or DDR2 up to 667mhz (so there's no FSB, as it's traditionally used), 4 on-die hardware MACs to speed networking, on-die encryption enhancements, and an expected power draw of 22 watts.

Given the massively multithreaded approach that's coming into vogue, especially with the x86 world finally catching on to the idea of using SMP and SMT to enhance performance, it makes more sense to move towards a dual-core professional line. Apple could increment the products with a 7448 in the PowerBooks and bump the 7447A at 1.5ghz down to the iBooks, then do a motherboard revamping in fall of next year to accept 8461 single-cores for iBooks and 8461D dual-cores for the PowerBooks.

Freed of the limitations of a 167mhz bus, using on-die memory control, and with true access to DDR speeds - not to mention to addition of RapidIO 1x/2x/4x (2.5Gb/s per channel) and PCI Express 1x/2x/4x/6x/8x/12x/16x(2.0Gb/s per channel) - there's basically ZERO reason to want the G5 in the portables. It just doesn't make sense, especially since there's little chance of PowerBooks or iBooks going over 4GB in memory any time soon.

This all sounds very well and true but... Apple are not going to sell their PowerBooks based on G4 technology forever. The majority of their customers are buying a brand name as well as technology. The majority of customers are going to be looking for a G5 system.
You are one of very few who actually understands these machines in terms of CPU/processing power and component compatibility. But that is not the case for the majority as I said. If there is a machine with a 1.8Ghz G5 processor, fairly good FSB and an impressive graphics card with a 80-100Gb hard drive then the customers are going to snap them up. :rolleyes:

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

4Gb-8Gb RAM will be needed in a PowerBook too, that was a naive comment to make. Apple Motion and soon to be released applications are going to rely on increasing amounts of memory. The 64-bit processor is also needed to take full advantage of the new Tiger operating system and new applications that are bound to be waiting around the corner to take advantage of this technology. They are going to build these machines for the future and the PowerBook needs a 64-bit solution to tackle new applications ie: video editing on the move with the new 64-bit Final Cut Pro HD?

64-bit technology is going to be left, right and centre over the next 12-18 months (especially with Longhorn, Microsofts attempts to tackle 64-bit and HD video technology) and Apple will not sit there with a G4, 32-Bit processing PowerBook that is supposed to be the top of their range!

This means there is a V.Good reason to work the 64-bit technology into their next range of PBooks. Not to mention they are going to want to shift as many copies of Tiger as poss (and any new 64-bit apps).

[virividox]

i wonder when!!!

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

i wonder when!!!

Tell me about it, I'd be very interested to have a look around their labs right now. They have been working on these machines for a long time (they have even been rumoured to be wandering around with the new technology in old G4 style casing to hide the fact that they are in fact working on it.

I dont deny that there may be a G4 update yet again but I dont think the Dual Processors are going to be ready before the G5.

Who knows... It is going to be very interesting to see what Apple can produce during 2005. ;)

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Last comment before I go and do some work in the real world...

Before anyone gets all sarcastic on me and tells me I'm wrong, I'M NOT!

Read these forums and you will find lots of useful information. Apple have been working on new liquid cooling technology for the G5 PowerBook for quite a while now, as well as new batteries and so on. It appears all of the components are in place to start putting this thing together and as I said before. They are not going to sit there whilst the 64-bit revolution takes over (with Microsofts contributions). They simply wont let the PowerBook fade away with new 64-bit apps and OS being released leaving them with a dual 32-bit piece of kit that is supposed to be Pro-Equipment.

Watch This Space, Apple MUST be working harder than ever to secure their place in 64-bit development - AMD have 64-bit portables available, Apple are NOT going to be too far behind! ;)

[thatwendigo]

This all sounds very well and true but... Apple are not going to sell their PowerBooks based on G4 technology forever.

Calling the e600 a G4 is like calling the Pentium M a Pentium 3. While there's a tiny sliver of truth to it, it's ignoring a whole huge bolus of information that you're leaving out.

The e600 cores, past the 7448, will be revamped and use new core logics and registers while maintaining compatibility with the G4e and overall PowerPC instruction set. They are faster, unencumbered by traditional front-side bus limitations, use better memeroy controllers, better support fabrics, and generally rock the boat in the same way that said Pentium M did. All of the major chipmakers are coming to face the truth - efficiency is key, not megahertz.

The majority of their customers are buying a brand name as well as technology. The majority of customers are going to be looking for a G5 system.

WWDC 2005

Steve: "Now, I know we told you that we'd not have a G5 in the PowerBook any time last year, and what we said was true. We all know IBM had some problems, and that promises were made that slipped... There were a lot of issues, some of them with heat and battery power, others with supply, and still others with basic design. It was a hard road, but I'm up here to tell you..."

Crowd starts to cheer, before he even gets the word out.

"We've done it."

Steve clicks his pointer, bringing up three spinning podiums with the new PowerBooks on them.

"I'd like to be the first to present to you, the new Apple PowerBook. Using new technology from Freescale, Apple, and IBM's partnership to develop the PowerPC, we've created a new chip specifically to bring you all the power that we could put into a portable. They have dual cores..." pause for cheers and applause "running at 1.6, 1.8, and 2 gigahertz, with fast DDR2 memory, 7200RPM drives, and a new 8x SuperDrive. In addition, thanks to the PCI Express bus that we've added to the PowerBooks, we're now loading them with modular graphics, starting at the nVidia 6600 Mobile and going up. These are the most expandable laptops we've ever offered, they're the fastest we've ever offered, and we're calling them the PowerBook G5M."

The audience is going wild.

"Oh, and one more thing... Shipping starts in September on the 12 inch and 15 inch models, with the 17 inch following in October."

You are one of very few who actually understands these machines in terms of CPU/processing power and component compatibility. But that is not the case for the majority as I said. If there is a machine with a 1.8Ghz G5 processor, fairly good FSB and an impressive graphics card with a 80-100Gb hard drive then the customers are going to snap them up. :rolleyes:

There's just no way a 1.8ghz PowerBook is going to fit into a space that size, not without a ridiculously expensive and custom cooling system. Let me reiterate this, since it doesn't seem to have gotten through from my last post... The 1.8ghz 7448 is 10 watts, the 1.5+ghz MPC8461D is 22-24 watts, and the single 1.8ghz 970fx is 25.6watts. Unless the laws of physics are on vacation, the MPC8461D will slaughter the 970, especially with a crippled FSB.

End of story.

4Gb-8Gb RAM will be needed in a PowerBook too, that was a naive comment to make. Apple Motion and soon to be released applications are going to rely on increasing amounts of memory.

Then get a tower or find 3-4GB DIMMS. Applications like Motion will never run as well on a portable as on a dedicataed desktop machine, and that's not going to change anytime soon.

The 64-bit processor is also needed to take full advantage of the new Tiger operating system and new applications that are bound to be waiting around the corner to take advantage of this technology. They are going to build these machines for the future and the PowerBook needs a 64-bit solution to tackle new applications ie: video editing on the move with the new 64-bit Final Cut Pro HD?

Look, you obviously have no understanding of what 64-bit computing is, how it works, or what it means, if you think it at all affects the general operating system or applications. When the label "64-bit" is applied to computers, it's talking about memory addressing and integer length in math, and that's it. Using 64-bit math and memory pointers will slow down most applications, rather than speeding them up, because you're unnecessarily moving larger hunks of data around.

I really wish this would get through to people. You'd think the megahertz myth had started all over again... :rolleyes:

64-bit technology is going to be left, right and centre over the next 12-18 months (especially with Longhorn, Microsofts attempts to tackle 64-bit and HD video technology) and Apple will not sit there with a G4, 32-Bit processing PowerBook that is supposed to be the top of their range!

Right. Sure. Whatever.

If you don't see how the 8461 is more than a G4, then there's no point in even talking to you. Gee golly, look at all those Pentium 3 laptops that Intel's selling right now!

[Dalriada]

WWDC 2005 "Oh, and one more thing... Shipping starts in September on the 12 inch and 15 inch models, with the 17 inch following in October."


Trust you were meaning 13 inch.... thanks for the fun ride though, enjoyed very much ! :D

[kirk26]

Everyone knew this already so it's not really news.

[Chomolungma]

I think a lot of us in here are obsess with mhz boost, still and in light of recent Intel announcement that they're not pursuing the 4 Ghz P4 chip. Are some mac users fool like so many other people by the Intel mhz marketing hype? :confused:

I'll be satisfy (for now) if Apple can give me a laptop that runs for ~5 hours day in and day out. I'll be happy when I don't have to carry the power cord with me during the day.

-chomo

[tiny bubbles]

I have a 1.5ghz on order that is sitting at FedEx not 20 minutes away. It shipped from China yesterday. I made arrangements to pick it up and was told by FedEx that it cannot be released until October 25 (monday) at 10:30 am. Does this imply that I have an unannounced powerbook waiting for me at the shipping dock or some silly shipping issue? :confused:

[Diatribe]

I have a 1.5ghz on order that is sitting at FedEx not 20 minutes away. It shipped from China yesterday. I made arrangements to pick it up and was told by FedEx that it cannot be released until October 25 (monday) at 10:30 am. Does this imply that I have an unannounced powerbook waiting for me at the shipping dock or some silly shipping issue? :confused:

Could be anything, but still a bit weird.

[Stella]

I have a 1.5ghz on order that is sitting at FedEx not 20 minutes away. It shipped from China yesterday. I made arrangements to pick it up and was told by FedEx that it cannot be released until October 25 (monday) at 10:30 am. Does this imply that I have an unannounced powerbook waiting for me at the shipping dock or some silly shipping issue? :confused:

LOL.
How frustrating?!

[PensDevil]

I have a 1.5ghz on order that is sitting at FedEx not 20 minutes away. It shipped from China yesterday. I made arrangements to pick it up and was told by FedEx that it cannot be released until October 25 (monday) at 10:30 am. Does this imply that I have an unannounced powerbook waiting for me at the shipping dock or some silly shipping issue? :confused:

Perhaps if it came directly from China it has to wait a certain amount of time to clear customs or maybe mandated stay in quarintine for x number of days?

[tiny bubbles]

Now FedEx is telling me it was put on a truck and will be delivered today. :)
No mystery machine, but at least I will have it for the weekend.

[johnnyjibbs]

People need to stop the whining. The iBooks are now a brilliant proposition but the PowerBooks are still good. They may price-drop them in a few weeks (that wouldn't be going against his word) and that would help sales.

But Apple cannot update the PowerBooks if there are NO new processors to put in them!!! However, nothing is really moving in the PC world either at the moment besides price drops, so it's not hurting Apple that much.

The other thing I can't understand is why people want to upgrade their machines so often. I bought this 12" PB a year ago now and I still expect it to last 4-5. So far it is going strong I don't think it to be slow in the slightest. I certainly wouldn't bother upgrading it to a newer version anytime soon. The same should go with all you owners of 15/17" PBs - the 1.25GHz/1.33/1.5GHz processors in them are fine for what you need. You paid a lot for those machines so just enjoy them and don't worry about what the current line is doing. If you do want to keep upgrading, you may as well be a little more behind but spend less money and get iBooks. For example, the new iBooks are as powerful as the 15/17" PBs were a year ago but yet they are less than half the price. So you can get one now, and then another one in a couple of years time for the same price as the next rev of 15/17" PB you are waiting for. Ok, so some of the feautres (mainly screen and graphics) are not as good on the iBook, but there are hacks to get around the screen spanning, etc.

[zelmo]

....

WWDC 2005

Steve: "Now, I know we told you that we'd not have a G5 in the PowerBook any time last year, and what we said was true. We all know IBM had some problems, and that promises were made that slipped... There were a lot of issues, some of them with heat and battery power, others with supply, and still others with basic design. It was a hard road, but I'm up here to tell you..."

Crowd starts to cheer, before he even gets the word out.

"We've done it."

Steve clicks his pointer, bringing up three spinning podiums with the new PowerBooks on them.

"I'd like to be the first to present to you, the new Apple PowerBook. Using new technology from Freescale, Apple, and IBM's partnership to develop the PowerPC, we've created a new chip specifically to bring you all the power that we could put into a portable. They have dual cores..." pause for cheers and applause "running at 1.6, 1.8, and 2 gigahertz, with fast DDR2 memory, 7200RPM drives, and a new 8x SuperDrive. In addition, thanks to the PCI Express bus that we've added to the PowerBooks, we're now loading them with modular graphics, starting at the nVidia 6600 Mobile and going up. These are the most expandable laptops we've ever offered, they're the fastest we've ever offered, and we're calling them the PowerBook G5M."

The audience is going wild.

"Oh, and one more thing... Shipping starts in September on the 12 inch and 15 inch models, with the 17 inch following in October."

....

I suspect (well, hope is probably the better word here) that you are mostly dead on target, except for one small thing. I think it more likely that it will be the smaller PB that will be available last, as it's delayed release may encourage some people waiting on it to go for the more expensive 15" or 17" models that are shipping first.

G5Mobile, G4, G5...who really cares as long as it screams? The marketing folks will spin it to make it sound exciting to the masses, anyway.

[kirk26]

Perhaps if it came directly from China it has to wait a certain amount of time to clear customs or maybe mandated stay in quarintine for x number of days?

Or maybe the FedEx employees are playing WCIII on it for a couple of days.

[chukronos]

I'm not rich like all of you. ;) So, I'd be happy if they'd just drop the prices on the current lineup. Then I would get a 15" 1.5 PB before x-mas. :D

[Maxx Power]

I think a lot of us in here are obsess with mhz boost, still and in light of recent Intel announcement that they're not pursuing the 4 Ghz P4 chip. Are some mac users fool like so many other people by the Intel mhz marketing hype? :confused:

I'll be satisfy (for now) if Apple can give me a laptop that runs for ~5 hours day in and day out. I'll be happy when I don't have to carry the power cord with me during the day.

-chomo

The marketing hype on Mhz is once again taking advantage of our primitive notions of bigger things being better along with the firm definition of Mhz already imprinted to our minds after hours of commercial from TVs, radios, the internet, on and outside buses, magazines, bill boards, infront of you by the urinals, in your mail box, newspapers, sports podiums, gyms, T-shirts, posters, subways, telephones, outside of cups, grocery bags, vending machines, milk cartons, written on the sky......

[Chomolungma]

The marketing hype on Mhz is once again taking advantage of our primitive notions of bigger things being better along with the firm definition of Mhz already imprinted to our minds after hours of commercial from TVs, radios, the internet, on and outside buses, magazines, bill boards, infront of you by the urinals, in your mail box, newspapers, sports podiums, gyms, T-shirts, posters, subways, telephones, outside of cups, grocery bags, vending machines, milk cartons, written on the sky......

you forget product placement in movies. Be that as it may, I think your list can be expanded further.

-chomo

[VIREBEL661]

What a drag (although I didn't really expect them to update the Powerbooks anyway). To me, there's still a degree of crippling going on in the laptop line. Maybe just the iBooks. I would really like to see us at a level where we're getting the latest and greatest tech. Hopefully soon - I'm putting off a laptop purchase until we get a new processor (either a G5 or a dual core G4).

[clabbe deinum]

I'm not rich like all of you. ;) So, I'd be happy if they'd just drop the prices on the current lineup. Then I would get a 15" 1.5 PB before x-mas. :D

yah.. i'm a student, som ofcorse I'm stinkin rich..;-P :D :D

[VIREBEL661]

People need to stop the whining. The iBooks are now a brilliant proposition but the PowerBooks are still good. They may price-drop them in a few weeks (that wouldn't be going against his word) and that would help sales....

I do agree with you, and I love the iBook. I don't know, the plain ol' G4 just seems so old to me. I know it's a great processor, but it's really been in a stalled state for some time (except for small speed bumps). Perhaps they can increase the functionality in some way to make it 'new' again, or rather, current. I just want to wait a bit longer for something all new in the laptop line, that's all. I'm bummed that I have to wait even longer - I think a lot of people feel this way.

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Calling the e600 a G4 is like calling the Pentium M a Pentium 3. While there's a tiny sliver of truth to it, it's ignoring a whole huge bolus of information that you're leaving out.

The e600 cores, past the 7448, will be revamped and use new core logics and registers while maintaining compatibility with the G4e and overall PowerPC instruction set. They are faster, unencumbered by traditional front-side bus limitations, use better memeroy controllers, better support fabrics, and generally rock the boat in the same way that said Pentium M did. All of the major chipmakers are coming to face the truth - efficiency is key, not megahertz.



WWDC 2005

Steve: "Now, I know we told you that we'd not have a G5 in the PowerBook any time last year, and what we said was true. We all know IBM had some problems, and that promises were made that slipped... There were a lot of issues, some of them with heat and battery power, others with supply, and still others with basic design. It was a hard road, but I'm up here to tell you..."

Crowd starts to cheer, before he even gets the word out.

"We've done it."

Steve clicks his pointer, bringing up three spinning podiums with the new PowerBooks on them.

"I'd like to be the first to present to you, the new Apple PowerBook. Using new technology from Freescale, Apple, and IBM's partnership to develop the PowerPC, we've created a new chip specifically to bring you all the power that we could put into a portable. They have dual cores..." pause for cheers and applause "running at 1.6, 1.8, and 2 gigahertz, with fast DDR2 memory, 7200RPM drives, and a new 8x SuperDrive. In addition, thanks to the PCI Express bus that we've added to the PowerBooks, we're now loading them with modular graphics, starting at the nVidia 6600 Mobile and going up. These are the most expandable laptops we've ever offered, they're the fastest we've ever offered, and we're calling them the PowerBook G5M."

The audience is going wild.

"Oh, and one more thing... Shipping starts in September on the 12 inch and 15 inch models, with the 17 inch following in October."



There's just no way a 1.8ghz PowerBook is going to fit into a space that size, not without a ridiculously expensive and custom cooling system. Let me reiterate this, since it doesn't seem to have gotten through from my last post... The 1.8ghz 7448 is 10 watts, the 1.5+ghz MPC8461D is 22-24 watts, and the single 1.8ghz 970fx is 25.6watts. Unless the laws of physics are on vacation, the MPC8461D will slaughter the 970, especially with a crippled FSB.

End of story.



Then get a tower or find 3-4GB DIMMS. Applications like Motion will never run as well on a portable as on a dedicataed desktop machine, and that's not going to change anytime soon.



Look, you obviously have no understanding of what 64-bit computing is, how it works, or what it means, if you think it at all affects the general operating system or applications. When the label "64-bit" is applied to computers, it's talking about memory addressing and integer length in math, and that's it. Using 64-bit math and memory pointers will slow down most applications, rather than speeding them up, because you're unnecessarily moving larger hunks of data around.

I really wish this would get through to people. You'd think the megahertz myth had started all over again... :rolleyes:



Right. Sure. Whatever.

If you don't see how the 8461 is more than a G4, then there's no point in even talking to you. Gee golly, look at all those Pentium 3 laptops that Intel's selling right now!


I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH YOU TO A CERTAIN EXTENT BUT...
I understand that 64-bit technology is just a way of addressing larger amounts of memory and so on; but you are completely crazy if you think portables are not going to use this amount of RAM v.soon and the new OS. Some creative industries employ people like me who can't live with a desktop - I need portability and I need to run Motion/future video apps on the move so I can edit anywhere in the world, whenever I need to. Apple do not create products that are limited to desktops forever... The portables always follow the desktops within a reasonable amount of time and 64-bit will be needed and soon (Tiger, video editing apps etc...! They are not going to say: Sod PowerBooks - only Desktops can use the 64-bit technology and all of the new expensive apps/OS (which need to address 4Gb memory) we have created are not going to be sold to our huge customer base with pro portable computers (I'M NOT AN IT GENIUS, BUT YOU ARE NOT EXACTLY A BUSINESS GENIUS). Apple have entered 64-bit technology and they need to follow it up with a 64-bit portable, they are working on key products that require 64-bit processing (END OF STORY)! You know they have been working on the G5 portable for a long time, I know they have huge heating problems BUT: They are world class engineers working with other world class companies (like cooligy and so on) to overcome these problems, what do you not understand? :)

[Metatron]

Everyone knows that clock for clock, the G4 can do just as well as a centrino based laptop. Even get close battery life, depending on the model. It is just that damn 133 mhz front side bus that has killed and will continue to kill the g4. Why in the hell has it taken 6 year to moto to make a G4 that finally has a faster frontside bus, which is still 9 months away.

I for one would not be suprised it the powerbooks completely missed out on the G5 movement and go to a G6 along side the Powermacs this summer. Think about it. We know that apple is working on the POWER5 - G6 chip. Given that it is a mulitcore processor, which would fit much better than a redisigned dualcore g4, and the fact apple has had a few years notice to work on it, I am sure it will happen. It just pisses me off that they got themselves into this mess. I know they ment to release a G5 powerbook, but did not imagine that the damn thing would be so hot.

Last rant, I almost hate the iPod. I love them and all, but I wonder if apple really cares if creative pros like us have to wait for a descent update since the iPod has doubled thier profits. I mean, what is a few lost Powermac/book sales in comparision to a few extra billion this year from the Pod-O. Apple could blow us away with an awesome G5 powerbook at 1.5 inch. I think we would all except that. Plus a dual layer dvd burner ;)

Also, don't give me that crap that the current powerbooks are a good offering. We all know that they are half the speed of the PowerMac and the same price. I would rather go to the windows world for moble computing. Apple will rue the day that a decent emulator is made that will run almost clock for clock. Truth is, I want apple hardware, it is beautiful. But when it gets time to making a living, I will run os x on an AMD 4000+ and care less if apple suffers. I mean, they have the iPod....right.

(I am wearing a fire retardent suit, so let the flaming begin)

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Everyone knows that clock for clock, the G4 can do just as well as a centrino based laptop. Even get close battery life, depending on the model. It is just that damn 133 mhz front side bus that has killed and will continue to kill the g4. Why in the hell has it taken 6 year to moto to make a G4 that finally has a faster frontside bus, which is still 9 months away.

I for one would not be suprised it the powerbooks completely missed out on the G5 movement and go to a G6 along side the Powermacs this summer. Think about it. We know that apple is working on the POWER5 - G6 chip. Given that it is a mulitcore processor, which would fit much better than a redisigned dualcore g4, and the fact apple has had a few years notice to work on it, I am sure it will happen. It just pisses me off that they got themselves into this mess. I know they ment to release a G5 powerbook, but did not imagine that the damn thing would be so hot.

Last rant, I almost hate the iPod. I love them and all, but I wonder if apple really cares if creative pros like us have to wait for a descent update since the iPod has doubled thier profits. I mean, what is a few lost Powermac/book sales in comparision to a few extra billion this year from the Pod-O. Apple could blow us away with an awesome G5 powerbook at 1.5 inch. I think we would all except that. Plus a dual layer dvd burner ;)

Also, don't give me that crap that the current powerbooks are a good offering. We all know that they are half the speed of the PowerMac and the same price. I would rather go to the windows world for moble computing. Apple will rue the day that a decent emulator is made that will run almost clock for clock. Truth is, I want apple hardware, it is beautiful. But when it gets time to making a living, I will run os x on an AMD 4000+ and care less if apple suffers. I mean, they have the iPod....right.

(I am wearing a fire retardent suit, so let the flaming begin)

Interesting theory about the G6, that seriously has got to be a long way off? Surely? A bit harsh on the current PowerBooks (they are sort of a good offering). They run Final Cut Pro and so on (as long as you have a good ext.drive) - MOTO are ridiculous and Apple need a bit more guidance! As for emulation (there is a new emulator to run OS X on PC - check the news on this site!

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

METATRON

Interesting theory about the G6, that seriously has got to be a long way off? Surely? A bit harsh on the current PowerBooks (they are sort of a good offering). They run Final Cut Pro and so on (as long as you have a good ext.drive) - MOTO are ridiculous and Apple need a bit more guidance! As for emulation (there is a new emulator to run OS X on PC - check the news on this site!

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Are 3 - 5Ghz G6 processors (if that's what they will call them) based on the PPC 980 really that close? If so - how will this work for the portable range? What speeds would they offer in the new PowerBooks and would they really skip a G5 PB to jump straight to this? Are they more efficient, cooler? I haven't heard too much regarding the G6 and I am v.interested. :eek:

[AidenShaw]

64-bit technology is going to be left, right and centre over the next 12-18 months (especially with Longhorn, Microsofts attempts to tackle 64-bit and HD video technology).

Windows is already available as a true 64-bit operating system...

o Windows XP and Windows Server 64-bit for IA-64 is a released, shipping product - and has been for over a year. (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit/ipf/default.mspx, http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/evaluation/top5.mspx)

o XP and Server for AMD64/EM64T is available as a preview version, free download (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/evaluation/upgrade.mspx)

Windows has already "won" the 64-bit race, Apple is playing catch-up with Tiger.
________________

I don't agree, however, that 64-bit is essential for a laptop in the near future.

If your laptop has 4 GiB or less of RAM, you don't need 64-bit. You won't see laptops with 8 GiB for a few years.

Also, it will be rare to find an application that's "64-bit only" and suitable for a laptop. As long as most desktops are 32-bit, a company would be eliminating most of its potential market by going 64-bit only. (You might find 64-bit only server apps like databases.)

[mypantsaretight]

Referring to my comments in the iBook update rumor, here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=93169&page=6&pp=25) at bottom....

I told you so.

Karmic justice. Enjoy your wait.

peace

[thatwendigo]

I ACTUALLY AGREE WITH YOU TO A CERTAIN EXTENT BUT...
I understand that 64-bit technology is just a way of addressing larger amounts of memory and so on; but you are completely crazy if you think portables are not going to use this amount of RAM v.soon and the new OS.

Stop. Just stop.

You don't need 64-bit addressing to go over 4 GB of RAM per process, and you don't need to significantly expand the pointers in order to handle the actual parceling of available resources. Oh, and I'm not at all crazy to think that portables aren't going to use this kind of RAM soon because the prices are laughably high and aren't likely to change. If you bother to investigate prices, you'll find that Kingston 1GB PC2700 SODIMMs are $350 a pop. That's more than twice as expensive as 512MB PC2700 SODIMMs, and it will only get worse as you go up in sizes.

The answer is a compromise of speed and capacity, using more efficient means to move data around. Just one of those is, GASP, the on-die memory controller that the MPC8461D has that the 970 lacks.

Some creative industries employ people like me who can't live with a desktop - I need portability and I need to run Motion/future video apps on the move so I can edit anywhere in the world, whenever I need to. Apple do not create products that are limited to desktops forever... The portables always follow the desktops within a reasonable amount of time and 64-bit will be needed and soon (Tiger, video editing apps etc...!

No.

Jesus Christ...

The power of the processor has nothing to do with its "bitness" and everything to do with its clockrate and I/O systems. If you remove the clock advantage and the bus bottleneck, the G4 will kill the 970 at most things, just as the Pentium M kills the Pentium 4. For quite some time, I've been advocating that the G5 is a stopgap, an ugly and hackneyed response to the problems that Motorola Semiconductors was suffering from. The benchmarks are bearing this out, especially in systems with lower clocks and limited bus speeds, where the older and "slower" G4 systems are keeping up fairly handily.

Also, if you're at all a serious professional, then you use the toll that does the best job. When it comes to serious graphics and sound work, that's not a laptop.

Apple have entered 64-bit technology and they need to follow it up with a 64-bit portable, they are working on key products that require 64-bit processing (END OF STORY)!

Nothing "requires" 64-bit processing, and you can do 64-bit math on an 8-bit processor if you really feel like it. It just takes some juggling and more clock cycles. However, people that have been bitten by the 64-Bit Bug seem to think that the speedup on the x86 side is merely a function of that label, when the truth is that AMD has cleverly hidden the fact that they cripple the 64-bit processors when not in 64-bit mode. They added registers that only turn on in that mode, even though they could function as 32-bit registers.

Meanwhile, the 970 has been running on all cylinders in either mode since day one. There is no additional speedup to be had from the bitness of applications.

Of course, you have to be an IT genius to read up on the subject and understand it... :rolleyes:

You know they have been working on the G5 portable for a long time, I know they have huge heating problems BUT: They are world class engineers working with other world class companies (like cooligy and so on) to overcome these problems, what do you not understand?

Do you have any idea how long people have been working on all kinds of problems? Cold fusion comes to mind, just to name one. Having engineers on a task doesn't make it possible, any more than throwing money at a problem makes it solvable.

Don't try to lecture me about computers when you clearly have no grasp of the reality of the situation.

I for one would not be suprised it the powerbooks completely missed out on the G5 movement and go to a G6 along side the Powermacs this summer. Think about it. We know that apple is working on the POWER5 - G6 chip. Given that it is a mulitcore processor, which would fit much better than a redisigned dualcore g4, and the fact apple has had a few years notice to work on it, I am sure it will happen. It just pisses me off that they got themselves into this mess. I know they ment to release a G5 powerbook, but did not imagine that the damn thing would be so hot.

Actually, no, we don't "know" that Apple is working on anything in particular. They're sort of famous for playing their research close to their chest, and we have absolutely no reason to believe that the Power5 is coming any sooner than any other chip that they might potentially use. There are a couple of problems with this mindset, and I came to realize them after advancing the same theories in the past.

1) The Power5, like the Power4, is a big iron chip that is intended for controlled environment deployment in major enterprise. As such, it's going to take enormous redesign to apply it to a desktop, let alone to a laptop, especially with the vast changes in architecture that were applied to the new core when it was developed. Remember, the original 970 took two years from when Apple spoke to IBM about it, and the Power5 is a new core that only came out this year, as opposed to the Power4 that's been around quite a bit longer.
2) The "redesigned G4" that you people keep attacking is a low power chip that pulls down less than a single core 970 does, while maintaining a far more impressive feature set. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a Power5-derived core would be cooler, though it might be faster when deployed in, say, a desktop.
3) Heat. Heat, heat, heat.

Last rant, I almost hate the iPod. I love them and all, but I wonder if apple really cares if creative pros like us have to wait for a descent update since the iPod has doubled thier profits.

The iPod revenue is a drop in the bucket. Apple's hardware is making five to six times as much revenue, even in this last quarter, and they make a much higher profit margin off of computers than iPods. Don't confuse the two, and don't listen to the FUD about the iPod being the savior of Apple.

I mean, what is a few lost Powermac/book sales in comparision to a few extra billion this year from the Pod-O.

The iPod has yet to make a billion dollars, even with its phenomenal sales. Apple's computer lines, on the other hand, do.

Truth is, I want apple hardware, it is beautiful. But when it gets time to making a living, I will run os x on an AMD 4000+ and care less if apple suffers. I mean, they have the iPod....right.

Oh, and for this lovely little chestnut... Without Apple's hardware, there will be no OS X. To equal their hardware sales for Quarter 3 2004 alone, they'd have to sell almost 5 million new copies of OS X in just three months. Not even Windows XP has done that.

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Windows is already available as a true 64-bit operating system...

o Windows XP and Windows Server 64-bit for IA-64 is a released, shipping product - and has been for over a year. (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit/ipf/default.mspx, http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/evaluation/top5.mspx)

o XP and Server for AMD64/EM64T is available as a preview version, free download (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/evaluation/upgrade.mspx)

Windows has already "won" the 64-bit race, Apple is playing catch-up with Tiger.
________________

I don't agree, however, that 64-bit is essential for a laptop in the near future.

If your laptop has 4 GiB or less of RAM, you don't need 64-bit. You won't see laptops with 8 GiB for a few years.

Also, it will be rare to find an application that's "64-bit only" and suitable for a laptop. As long as most desktops are 32-bit, a company would be eliminating most of its potential market by going 64-bit only. (You might find 64-bit only server apps like databases.)

Yeah I agree with most of this... Windows hasn't been a true 64-bit system for over a year - Longhorn is where it really starts later this year (or even 2006). They have borrowed aqua style interfaces from Mac and that should be quite interesting to see. I know Microsoft have had preview 64-bit releases (to be used for Longhorn) and I have tested one on my old 64-bit PC but that didnt excite me, I sold the PC soon after. Their 64-bit OS is designed to coincide with the 64-bit Pentium chip. G5/Tiger have a 12/36 month lead on Windows 64/P64 apparently (you can search for this, Steve Jobs commented on it himself).
I agree 4Gb is not necessarily needed right now, but this is about building a machine for the future, they have got to produce a 64-bit portable to run their new Tiger OS, surely. I have seen my needs rise dramatically over the last few years and I can see 8Gb RAM being pretty normal within a desktop over the next 12-18 months and the portables have got to follow sometime soon with 4Gb RAM. The video/graphics apps that I use are constantly improving and they need to run efficiently on the PowerBooks. I'm not sure about this whole thing, this debate is going crazy - I need to take some headache pills and come back to this later. Someone get Steve Jobs on the phone!

[deputy_doofy]

Stop. Just stop.

The power of the processor has nothing to do with its "bitness" and everything to do with its clockrate and I/O systems. If you remove the clock advantage and the bus bottleneck, the G4 will kill the 970 at most things, just as the Pentium M kills the Pentium 4. For quite some time, I've been advocating that the G5 is a stopgap, an ugly and hackneyed response to the problems that Motorola Semiconductors was suffering from. The benchmarks are bearing this out, especially in systems with lower clocks and limited bus speeds, where the older and "slower" G4 systems are keeping up fairly handily.


I'm no genius when it comes to chips or chip design, but I, too, was thinking that the G5 was just something to hold us over until the true next-gen chip comes out. If I'm even remotely correct, Motorola was working on the G4 chip about the same time IBM was working on their Power4 chip. If this is even remotely true or close, the G5 is really nothing more than IBM's version of the G4 chip. It's a G4 that took a different road and, because of it, has a better front-side bus and so forth.
As for when the G6 chip will come out, that's anybody's guess. When the PPC group finally gets past all the problems that have been plaguing them for years (yields, bus speed, etc.), the rest of the computing public (Wintel fans) may finally see the PPC shine bright.

'k. Done my babbling.

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

(Best tools, my a**e, it's about creativity and innovation) A Professional Editor can use a laptop, what a b******t statement. I do and have done for a long while, it is common knowledge that all manner of TV and Film productions have used the G4 PowerBook to edit their projects and then transferred to Higher Spec machines at a later date for the 'Online' process. - It will be nice to have that higher spec in a laptop eventually though and Steve Jobs himself is pretty confident they can do it).

All I am saying is that they have to move the technology forwards pretty soon. You are being way too defensive and saying No, No, No. No G5 PowerBooks, No 980 PPC chips, this can't be done etc... Chill Out!

I'll just wait till next year and see, I have more confidence in these people and their abilities. Thanks for arguing with me, ;)

[ThomasHobbes]

He's not saying that Apple couldn't put a G5 or G6 (POWER 5, 980 whatever) into a laptop. They could. P4's run hotter and they exist in many Window's laptops. Albeit in a heavy clunky 1 hour battery life 2 inch thick form. That's why they moved to the P-M, which is roughly equivilant to a G4e at the same clock speeds. It's just the P-M runs faster at clock and bus speeds.

The G4e/G4+ (i.e. 7440, 7450 lines (difference is L3 cache, the 7450's have it)) is designed for the embedded enviroment which makes it basically perfect for a mobile chip. Downsides are bus speed, clock speed. The 7448 (still a G4e mind you, not an e600 core) addresses this a little with a 200Mhz bus and 1.5Ghz+ clock speeds. Later on single and dual core e600's adress this with the features already mentioned.

You people seem confused about chips. The fact that the G4 was in Apple desktops means that they had no other choice in the matter. The G4 was not really designed to be a desktop chip. That is why (along with Motorola's inability to keep clock speeds climbing versuz the P4) they turned to IBM for a SERVER CHIP for their desktops. Server chips are in no way designed to run in a mobile enviroment.

As for memory the 4 GiB limit in a PB will last for a year or two but Freescale also has a 32/64 bit chip in the works called the e700 as an embedded/mobile answer to AMD64 and IBM's 980 (POWER 5) chips.

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

He's not saying that Apple couldn't put a G5 or G6 (POWER 5, 980 whatever) into a laptop. They could. P4's run hotter and they exist in many Window's laptops. Albeit in a heavy clunky 1 hour battery life 2 inch thick form. That's why they moved to the P-M, which is roughly equivilant to a G4e at the same clock speeds. It's just the P-M runs faster at clock and bus speeds.

The G4e/G4+ (i.e. 7440, 7450 lines (difference is L3 cache, the 7450's have it)) is designed for the embedded enviroment which makes it basically perfect for a mobile chip. Downsides are bus speed, clock speed. The 7448 (still a G4e mind you, not an e600 core) addresses this a little with a 200Mhz bus and 1.5Ghz+ clock speeds. Later on single and dual core e600's adress this with the features already mentioned.

You people seem confused about chips. The fact that the G4 was in Apple desktops means that they had no other choice in the matter. The G4 was not really designed to be a desktop chip. That is why (along with Motorola's inability to keep clock speeds climbing versuz the P4) they turned to IBM for a SERVER CHIP for their desktops. Server chips are in no way designed to run in a mobile enviroment.

As for memory the 4 GiB limit in a PB will last for a year or two but Freescale also has a 32/64 bit chip in the works called the e700 as an embedded/mobile answer to AMD64 and IBM's 980 (POWER 5) chips.

Thanks for that Thomas, you spelt it out quite clearly. I wasn't trying to get into a huge debate over chips. I was simply simply trying to point out that the mobile range immitates the desktop versions within a reasonable amount of time (they have in the past anyway). It is something that I would of expected to happen with the G5 as it's been around in desktop form for so long and Apple are constantly dropping hints that they are working on a G5 Portable. It wasn't supposed to lead into a huge debate, just trying to work out when I can finally get a desktop replacement PowerBook that is close enough to stick with. Cheers. ;)

[Anticipat3]

While I tried for a long time to refrain from chiming in about all of the silly powerbook rumors and ideas going around, I can't resist any more.

First of all, those of you complaining about how slow the Powerbooks are should use one for a while. In all honesty, I have a 1.33 ghz 15" model and for all except heavy, timely multimedia production it's wonderfully fast. If you're doing those kinds of things, you're an idiot for using a laptop. Buy a G5 for doing those things and a $999 iBook for when you need to be portable.

There was a time when OSX was enough of a hog that it really was beneficial to upgrade after every new product cycle. The news flash that mac users today need to wake up to is this: The hardware has caught up. A lot of this is due to how much more optimized 10.3 is, but still. These days, anything upwards of a Sawtooth G4 is a perfectly fine machine with 10.3. I also have a Dual 533 G4 at work, and honestly: it's every bit as fast as the fancy G5 for everyday operations like web surfing, chatting, music playing, light photoshop work (web grahics type stuff), iPhoto, etc etc. Even a 600 iBook that we have at work performs admirably -- it is noticibly slower than the above machines, but not so much that I'm considering upgrading it yet.

Any Mac you can buy today will run the OS and all of the included programs that you use often just as snappily as a dual-processor, liquid-cooled G5. I can tell you that because I have a G5 that I use at work every day. Except when doing things like Final Cut or Gaming, it's no faster than my Powerbook. Safari isn't going to get faster, Adium/iChat is the same, iTunes works fine, Work works fine, Mail works fine.

My point in saying this is that it's not critical that Apple update the Powerbooks anytime soon. They've got a model right now that's wonderfully designed, has great battery life (I get 3:30 of actual use time on mine), is adequately powerful, and not too expensive. Going from the current model to a Liquid-cooled, 1.5 or 2" thick, dangerously rev A and inhibitively expensive powerbook would not equate more sales for them, and would not make the users happy. Again, that big, expensive, inconvenient machine isn't going to be any better for the things that most people use powerbooks for, so it's certainly not worthwhile to rush it to market.

That said, if they don't update the powerbooks they DO need to drop the prices. The 12" powerbook has gone from one of the best values to one of the worst in the past few months. It's now $999 for a loaded 12" iBook, or, if you want to burn DVDs, $1799 for a Powerbook with a Superdrive. The only other options it includes are a DVI port and extra Video memory & horsepower for driving an external display. $800 price premium for that? I think not.

The iBook is a ridiculously good value right now. For only $999 you can get a machine that needs no expensive extras to be useful, and is plenty fast for anything you'd want to do on a laptop. It almost makes me feel silly for spending nearly $2000 on a powerbook in July, given that I only have a few extra features -- a 15" widescreen being the most important (this makes a laptop SO much more usable than 1024x768...), and the only other notables being the Gigabit ethernet (which was a huge plus for me, but wouldn't be for most users) and the Video horsepower (again, I hope to be able to play WoW on it... might stand a chance with a 9700, no chance with a 5200 or 9200, but that's a silly thing to spend so much on, i know ;) ), and the PCMCIA slot (absolutely necessary for wardriving, but how many people besides me do this?). If those 3 things aren't important, as they aren't to most users ("I just want to surf the 'net, get my email, listen to some music, type some papers at the library"), then the iBook is definately the way to go.

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

I STILL HAVE FAITH - Come on....

MacMinute Article - Going back to the original point of this thread!!! Was posted v.long time ago though - but he should know what hes talkin about.

All of the key components for Apple to produce a PowerBook G5 appear to be ready, and Mac users should expect to see the new laptop no later than this summer, Peter Glaskowsky, analyst with Instat/MDR and editor of the Microprocessor Report, told MacMinute. He noted that the IBM PowerPC 970FX—which is used in the Xserve G5—offers basic power-consumption features needed for a portable machine. Glaskowsky explained that the 970FX also has PowerTune, IBM's version of the voltage and frequency scaling technology used on x86 laptop processors. "With all this new technology, a PowerBook G5 should be much faster and last about as long as a PowerBook G4 in average usage," he said.

Glaskowsky said his PowerBook G4 (800MHz DVI) runs continuously from about 2 to 3.5 hours depending on settings and usage. "PowerTune should increase that ratio to more than 2:1, possibly enabling an honest five-hour battery life with very light use." However, he noted that the numbers depend heavily on Apple's choice of LCD in the new PowerBooks.


Glaskowsky said that since Apple's Xserve G5 uses the PowerPC 970FX, the chip is obviously ready for production. He said the core logic could be the "key remaining component." And unless Apple decides to add radical new features to the PowerBook G5, all other hardware pieces are readily available.


He speculates that the new laptops could be introduced basically at any time. "I would not have been surprised to see the new PowerBook announced last month, and I won't be surprised if it doesn't come out until summer," Glaskowasky concluded.

[Metatron]

I hope that I do not have to pull the video when PowerMac G5 was introduced. Remember, IBM said they where already working on the next chip for Apple. And it was not the 970FX. The G6 will not be an iron block. It is based on the same architecture, but scaled for a workstation without having the redudancies of a server chip. And I can asure you, apple is going all 64 bit. Mostly as market hype, because it is not really needed except when you need more that 4 gigs of ram, which we all know. And do not think that apple will not want to put a G6 in its powerbook at the same time of the Powermacs. "PowerBook revenue climbed 20 percent to $419 million" -complements of cnet. These things are beautiful and sale like hot caked, but people want real power.

I did not contest that the G4 was a hoss, just that it's FSB killed it. And by the time freescale comes to play ball, IBM's offerings will make if irrelevant .

And "iPod revenue more than quadrupled to $537 million and accounted for 23 percent of total revenue." -complements of cnet. Not exactly a billion, but a quarter of your total revenue can make the low powermac/book sales not look so bad, especially if stock holders have nothing to argue about.

The G6 is coming, the G5 has just about put out all it can. I don't expect if to top 2.8 ghz due to problems not seen to the 90nm transition. Remember the promise of 3 ghz. And the g6 was suppost to take us to almost 5ghz. It will happen, the the intoduction of a 3.0 - 3.4 ghz G6 this summer, while the G5 moves into the imac, emac, ibook which they will scale to 2.8ghz. As the G6 scales beyond 4ghz, the consumer line will go G6 in the low 3ghz range. Trust me, apple had no intition of puting a g5 in a consumer product before the the Powerbook. Kind of defeats the name -"power" book.

Apple will be all 64 bit by this time next year. All machines, why we wait for os 10.5 for a truly 64 bit OS.

[LaMerVipere]

Well I guess my 12" iBook G4, 800MHz will last me a bit longer......*cries*

[sw1tcher]

But Apple cannot update the PowerBooks if there are NO new processors to put in them!!! However, nothing is really moving in the PC world either at the moment besides price drops, so it's not hurting Apple that much.


Well, Intel announced their 2.1GHz Pentium M chip (http://news.com.com/Intel+releases+new+leader+of+Pentium+M+pack/2100-1006_3-5419443.html?tag=nefd.top) today. It has a 2MB cache, a 400MHz FSB, improved power consumption, and is built using the 90-nanometer manufacturing process.

[thomasp]

I am likely to be purchasing a PowerBook (around GB£1700's worth) some time around late August to early September next year. Because of this, I have been following the PowerBook G5/dual-core G4 developments closely.

I reckon/know that a major upgrade will happen around late September to early October next year - just after I have invested in £1700 worth of outdated PowerBook :D

The same thing happened with my G3 iMac, 4 years ago.


On a serious note though, I hope Apple do release either a dual-core G4 Powerbook, or a G5 PowerBook as early as possible next year, so as they have time to fix any potential hardware glitches before the September rush.

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

I hope that I do not have to pull the video when PowerMac G5 was introduced. Remember, IBM said they where already working on the next chip for Apple. And it was not the 970FX. The G6 will not be an iron block. It is based on the same architecture, but scaled for a workstation without having the redudancies of a server chip. And I can asure you, apple is going all 64 bit. Mostly as market hype, because it is not really needed except when you need more that 4 gigs of ram, which we all know. And do not think that apple will not want to put a G6 in its powerbook at the same time of the Powermacs. "PowerBook revenue climbed 20 percent to $419 million" -complements of cnet. These things are beautiful and sale like hot caked, but people want real power.

I did not contest that the G4 was a hoss, just that it's FSB killed it. And by the time freescale comes to play ball, IBM's offerings will make if irrelevant .

And "iPod revenue more than quadrupled to $537 million and accounted for 23 percent of total revenue." -complements of cnet. Not exactly a billion, but a quarter of your total revenue can make the low powermac/book sales not look so bad, especially if stock holders have nothing to argue about.

The G6 is coming, the G5 has just about put out all it can. I don't expect if to top 2.8 ghz due to problems not seen to the 90nm transition. Remember the promise of 3 ghz. And the g6 was suppost to take us to almost 5ghz. It will happen, the the intoduction of a 3.0 - 3.4 ghz G6 this summer, while the G5 moves into the imac, emac, ibook which they will scale to 2.8ghz. As the G6 scales beyond 4ghz, the consumer line will go G6 in the low 3ghz range. Trust me, apple had no intition of puting a g5 in a consumer product before the the Powerbook. Kind of defeats the name -"power" book.

Apple will be all 64 bit by this time next year. All machines, why we wait for os 10.5 for a truly 64 bit OS.

Thanks for the reassurance Metatron... Someone I can finally have decent chat with. All sounds good - although they are bound to do a minor revision to the G4 PowerBooks first (1.6, 1.8Ghz topline?)

That's exactly what I thought, it would make sense for Apple to go 100% 64-bit. They have bought into 64-bit majorly and they have developed Tiger - I didn't think they would hang around with cross 32/64 bit systems for too long. They've got money to be making. People have been sending me crazy all day long about how impossible everything is. Everyone knows IBM and others have been having problems with 90nm but they are not that *********g stupid, Onwards and Upwards! They need to realign the Apple products. E-Mac will go G5 next probably, PBooks minor G4 update before G5 announcement mid 2005, then iBook later - I think Dual G4 won't happen - IBM will have played big time catch up by then and as mentioned before, the single G5/G6 whatever wouldn't look too favourable after a Dual Core G4. ;)

[johnnyjibbs]

Well, Intel announced their 2.1GHz Pentium M chip (http://news.com.com/Intel+releases+new+leader+of+Pentium+M+pack/2100-1006_3-5419443.html?tag=nefd.top) today. It has a 2MB cache, a 400MHz FSB, improved power consumption, and is built using the 90-nanometer manufacturing process.
Oh well, the Intel laptop space is moving :( It won't be long before Intel starts sticking the Pentium M in the desktops because the P4 plain sucks ;)

Apple and IBM should have thought about this with the G5 - they should have been trying to see how they could design it for a notebook. People moan on about moto and the G4, but the G5 is going to look stale if we're only pushing 3GHz in a year or two.. :p

[Dazabrit@yahoo.]

Well, Intel announced their 2.1GHz Pentium M chip (http://news.com.com/Intel+releases+new+leader+of+Pentium+M+pack/2100-1006_3-5419443.html?tag=nefd.top) today. It has a 2MB cache, a 400MHz FSB, improved power consumption, and is built using the 90-nanometer manufacturing process.

VERY NICE... 90nm manufacturing process too
Thanks for the information, I didnt hear about this. ;)

[thatwendigo]

MacMinute Article - Going back to the original point of this thread!!! Was posted v.long time ago though - but he should know what hes talkin about.

The article in question. (http://www.macminute.com/2004/02/24/powerbookg5)

Gee, and that was published in February, which means that he predicted this summer and missed.

"With all this new technology, a PowerBook G5 should be much faster and last about as long as a PowerBook G4 in average usage," he said.

While his claims that the G5 will be "much faster" than the G4, the iMac G5 isn't proving this to be true in any great stride, and the scaling is roughly comparable with clock increase. That means that, were the G4 to be ramped to equal clock (say, 1.8ghz at 10w with the 7448), it would hang in with the 97fx and consume less power, thus giving it even more battery life.

"PowerTune should increase that ratio to more than 2:1, possibly enabling an honest five-hour battery life with very light use." However, he noted that the numbers depend heavily on Apple's choice of LCD in the new PowerBooks.

With very light use.

With very light use.

With very light use.

With very light use

Hmmm... Now, I seem to recall that I said that PowerTune wouldn't do a damned thing if it was put on a processor that was in constant usage, like one for professional applications that certain posters just have to have. Is this sinking in yet?

The G6 will not be an iron block. It is based on the same architecture, but scaled for a workstation without having the redudancies of a server chip.

For those who are apparently uninitiated into basic computing terminology, but who persist in trying to tell me what I'm talking about:

big iron - n - Enterprise scale, massively redundant and safe processor that typically trade off some performance for increased stability and error correction. The Power4 is such a proccesor, as is the Power5, the Itanium, and several others. They are usually hot and rely on massive investments in HVAC to maintain, and have massive power draw.

The "G6" is most likely going to be a descendent of the Power5 core, rather than the Power4, but that doesn't at all mean that it's coming out any time soon. However, unless it's being designed from the ground up (which some allege), it will probably be another port of existing core technologies with thinner gate oxides, fewer cores, less cache, and other cosst-saving measures. It might be cooler, but the Power5 isn't cooler than the Power4, so there's little reason to believe that to be true.

And do not think that apple will not want to put a G6 in its powerbook at the same time of the Powermacs. "PowerBook revenue climbed 20 percent to $419 million" -complements of cnet. These things are beautiful and sale like hot caked, but people want real power.

Let me show you a little history, hmmm?

Introduction of first G3 PowerMac: 11/11/1997 (233/266/300mhz beige G3)
Introduction of first G3 PowerBook: 11/15/1997 (250mhz PowerBook G3)
Introduction of first G4 PowerMac: 9/1/1999 (PowerMac PCI Graphics 350/400mhz)
Introduction of first G4 PowerBook: 1/9/2001 (PowerBook G4 450/500mhz)
Introduction of first G5 PowerMac: 6/23/2003 (PowerMac G5 1.6/1.8/2/0MP)
Introduction of first G5 Powerbook: ...

So, with the G3s there's a simultaneous release, but the heat was comparatively tiny even for portables and it was in a fat plastic case. With the G4s, there was a fifteen month wait, in which time the PowerMacs had climbed to 466, 533, 667, 733, and dual 533mhz machines that all blew out the offerings for the PowerBook.

Engineering doesn't change because marketing wants it to, nor does physics.



Freescale is playing ball right now. They're offering a chip in the forseeable future that clocks as high as the processors in the iMac, but at less than half the heat and power. How man times to I have to repeat this? When a single 7447A at 1.5ghz competes with the 1.6 and 1.8ghz G5s, then a 1.8ghz G4 will compete even more favorably and quite possibly outrun it. When they roll out the 8461, there's not going to be much from the 970 (without a huge redesign) that can compete with it.

[quote]And "iPod revenue more than quadrupled to $537 million and accounted for 23 percent of total revenue." -complements of cnet. Not exactly a billion, but a quarter of your total revenue can make the low powermac/book sales not look so bad, especially if stock holders have nothing to argue about.

So you're knocked down from "doubled" to "a quarter" and it's just not a big deal.

Right.

:rolleyes:

The G6 is coming, the G5 has just about put out all it can. I don't expect if to top 2.8 ghz due to problems not seen to the 90nm transition. Remember the promise of 3 ghz. And the g6 was suppost to take us to almost 5ghz. It will happen, the the intoduction of a 3.0 - 3.4 ghz G6 this summer, while the G5 moves into the imac, emac, ibook which they will scale to 2.8ghz. As the G6 scales beyond 4ghz, the consumer line will go G6 in the low 3ghz range. Trust me, apple had no intition of puting a g5 in a consumer product before the the Powerbook. Kind of defeats the name -"power" book.

You're a big PC user, aren't you? The megahertz fixation you have is showing pretty badly, and it also speaks highly of how little you grasp the benefits of well designed dual-core systems. Apple will benefit more from a good dual-core than they will from 200mhz increase in the 970 or its derivatives. There's a lot of multithreading in the operating system and major applications, and that's going to matter a lot more in the future.

It's definitely more important than "64-bit" hype.

[JD24]

1.8ghz at 10w with the 7448

That's not possible. The specs says 10W at 1.4ghz

[purplehaze]

well, it's already too late for me. After waiting for what seems like a lifetime for a powerbook which was value for money, I bit the bullet and bought a pc notebook:

Centrino 1.7Ghz, 2MB cache
400MHz Bus
Intel Pro Wireless 802.11 b&g
Multiformat DVDRW
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 128MB
15.1" 1400x1050
512MB DDR 333MHz
80 Gig hd
4 in 1 card reader
Battery Life 5hrs (actual battery life)
2 yr insurance and warranty included
2.8kg

All for £999 (inc VAT)

I'll still follow the Apple world, but I've no regrets about not switching. My notebook is nearly £800 cheaper, faster and the same size as the 15" powerbook. Apple never did pull something out the fire....

[areyouwishing]

As the G6 scales beyond 4ghz, the consumer line will go G6 in the low 3ghz range.

Im sorry but even intel has backed off from the 4ghz mark, the whole industry is going dual core, I doubt we will see a 4ghz chip from IBM or intel for about 2-3 years while everyone perfects their dual core lineup and optimizes their software to take advantage all the processors.

From Apple and IBM's perspective they can waste time engineering ridiculous expensive cooling techniques as a stop-gap (ala 2.5 G5), or they can spend the money on software to optimize for dual cores... and when 65nm is ready switch to that and MAYBE hit 4ghz... in a practical less frankenstein sort of way.

Hate to break it to everyone but we are at the cusp of a MAJOR mhz myth slowdown... long live power efficient dual core g4s.

[MacSA]

Well, Intel announced their 2.1GHz Pentium M chip (http://news.com.com/Intel+releases+new+leader+of+Pentium+M+pack/2100-1006_3-5419443.html?tag=nefd.top) today. It has a 2MB cache, a 400MHz FSB, improved power consumption, and is built using the 90-nanometer manufacturing process.

:( :( Im looking at getting a laptop somtime in the future, those PC's with the Pentium M are starting to look more and more appealing than the Apple laptops i've been drooling over for so long :( Apple REALLY need to produce something SPECTACULAR in the next few months.

[thatwendigo]

That's not possible. The specs says 10W at 1.4ghz

Electronic News: (http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA456540)
Freescale also disclosed two additional processors based on the e600 PowerPC core: the MPC8641 processor, a pin-for-pin compatible single core implementation of the dual core device; and the MPC7448 discrete processor, a higher-performance, lower-power successor to the MPC7447A PowerPC device, announced in February. Pin-for-pin compatible with the MPC7447A, the MPC7448 processor offers 1MByte of L2 cache and is expected to exceed 1.5GHz.

OSNews says this: (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=8548)
The highest performing Pentium 4s already use in excess of 100 Watts, the next generation G4 7448 is expected to require less than 10 Watts at 1.4 GHz. Of course when performance is needed there's always the Altivec unit which was never been lacking, to encourage it's use an increasing number of routines are being made available by Freescale for use by their customers.

So there's a "less than 10 at 1.4," but no claims of 10 watts at that point.


As an interesting side note, someone else has picked up one of my trains of thought. From the same OSnews ( ) link:
What if?
Freescale didn't need to drop the speed of their cores to put two on a single die but if they did they could build some very potent processors. Dropping the cores to 1.4GHz should allow 4 cores to be used and still remain under 50 Watts. They could even build an 8 core device if they wanted and still stay under 100 Watts, it would outgun every PC CPU on the market several times over and still not use as much power as a P4 Prescott!

Perhaps the criticism levelled at the G4 should have been sent in another direction...

Dual G5 2.0ghz machines put out about 75-80 watts. That would mean an octuple core 1.4ghz part could be built for less heat budget (less than 10 watts, remember?), each with 1MB of high-coherency cache and all kinds of other enhancement.

It's about systems. :D

[Metatron]

"Apple will benefit more from a good dual-core than they will from 200mhz increase in the 970 or its derivatives."

I will agree with you there. But you will not see a freescale dual core g4 in any apple products.....ever.

Motorola had it's day and failed. G4 is done. While it "is" a good chip, fsb, sucks, and by the time a dualcore g4 hits market, IBM will have something as good or better.

And yes the G6 is being built from the ground up based on the Power5, designed for low heat, low watt, but big power. And I am a huge promoter of the mhz myth, but there will be a dual core g6, scaled from 3-5ghz. I want one, as well as anyone else with any brains, so you can keep you freescale sh**.

Yes, I use a PC, often. I work with one, unfortunatly, but at home is my glorious mac. And unless you name is Bill Gates, I think 500 million dollars is a big deal, especially at a quarter of you income. But obviuosly that is pocket change for you.

And to "areyouwishing," your right, the mhz myth is already busted, the the fact that intel has backed away from mhz is not because if wants to, because it has to. The AMD 4000+ running at only 2.6 ghz kills, hell it eliminates the pentium 4. But intel could not keep the power and heat down because of thier crappy design.

And to pointing out apples history, wtf! Have you not noticed apple has not done anything as of late that is predicatble by it's former history. Hell, apple even realease products on days other than tuesday. And I never promised that the Powermac/book G6 will be released at the same time, I just said it is likely so that the pro line is distingishable from the consumer. They would not cut into each others sales, people that want portable will go portable, people that want desktop....the same.

Get off your I am the king of the world soapbox and look at the facts. Not rumors. G6 is coming no later than Jan 06, possibly by summer 05. Freescale, a day to late, but would be awesome if they could put it in today....I would get one. 64 bits is hype unless you are running a 30 grand server. Like you have anything near 4 gigs in you mac, pc, anything. And what makes the current powerbook really suck is apps like motion. Only to macs even qualify to run it.

[MacSA]

well, it's already too late for me. After waiting for what seems like a lifetime for a powerbook which was value for money, I bit the bullet and bought a pc notebook:

Centrino 1.7Ghz, 2MB cache
400MHz Bus
Intel Pro Wireless 802.11 b&g
Multiformat DVDRW
ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 128MB
15.1" 1400x1050
512MB DDR 333MHz
80 Gig hd
4 in 1 card reader
Battery Life 5hrs (actual battery life)
2 yr insurance and warranty included
2.8kg

All for £999 (inc VAT)

I'll still follow the Apple world, but I've no regrets about not switching. My notebook is nearly £800 cheaper, faster and the same size as the 15" powerbook. Apple never did pull something out the fire....


WOW ....where did you get that from?

[thatwendigo]

I will agree with you there. But you will not see a freescale dual core g4 in any apple products.....ever.

I'm willing to bet that Freescale's more likely to get a dual-core solution into a mobile format before IBM does, because they have the low-power experience and IBM mostly ships servers and big iron. After all, IBM's delivered on all their promises so... Oh wait, no they haven't.

It's just as logical to say that IBM's blown the deal and that there will never, ever be a 970 in an Apple product ever again.

Motorola had it's day and failed. G4 is done. While it "is" a good chip, fsb, sucks, and by the time a dualcore g4 hits market, IBM will have something as good or better.

Just like they had 3.0ghz ready to roll last summer, right? Face it, everyone in the industry is running for dual-core, and the company that makes PowerPCs and has the most experience in the mobile/embedded market is FreeScale. They're already shipping two products from Crolles2, and they've announced new parts with significant advances.

Where's IBM's 90nm, dual-core, 15 watt chip?

And yes the G6 is being built from the ground up based on the Power5, designed for low heat, low watt, but big power. And I am a huge promoter of the mhz myth, but there will be a dual core g6, scaled from 3-5ghz. I want one, as well as anyone else with any brains, so you can keep you freescale sh**.

Okay, and now we've hit the wall.

I'm still going to be reasonable though. Despite what you seem to believe about megahertz, there's some nice evidence that older cores with higher efficiency can make for some suprising results. (http://www.intel.com/products/notebook/processors/pentiumm/index.htm?iid=ipp_browse+featureprocess_pentiumm&) Do you hate the Centrino platform this much? It runs off an extended Pentium 3 core, after all, and is something around half to a little more than half of the Pentium 4's clock rate. Despite that, it blows the doors off the competition at a fraction of the heat cost. Similarly, the Opteron/Athlon 64 (Socket 939 cores, at least) is giving the Pentium 4 a drubbing in the desktop market witha significant clockrate disadvantage.

Two words:
Megahertz. Myth.

Yes, I use a PC, often. I work with one, unfortunatly, but at home is my glorious mac. And unless you name is Bill Gates, I think 500 million dollars is a big deal, especially at a quarter of you income. But obviuosly that is pocket change for you.

Ad hominem abusive. ( )

Your original claim was untrue, and I caught you at it. Now you're trying to attack me personally for your lack of research.

That's hardly fair.

And to pointing out apples history, wtf! Have you not noticed apple has not done anything as of late that is predicatble by it's former history. Hell, apple even realease products on days other than tuesday.

Product releases on a day other than a Tuesday? Stop the presses!

That's certainly a bigger departure than managing to shoehorn a processor that's hotter than the G4 into a form factor that's the same size!

:rolleyes:

And I never promised that the Powermac/book G6 will be released at the same time, I just said it is likely so that the pro line is distingishable from the consumer. They would not cut into each others sales, people that want portable will go portable, people that want desktop....the same.

I need a macro for this, with how often I've had to repeat it today:

Engineering and physics don't take orders from marketing concerns.

Get off your I am the king of the world soapbox and look at the facts. Not rumors. G6 is coming no later than Jan 06, possibly by summer 05.

Source? If this is a "fact," it should be easy to find one.

[Metatron]

To adhear to the rules of the macrumors forum, I will stop myself from saying the obvious. But since you like to quote me, thanks for making me so popluar by the way, type this a thousand times. Then repeat.

"G6 is coming. Freescale will never come to pass. I am the antichrist."

Then take to hydros and chat with me in the morning.

And when I am right, I will PM with this forum. And, if in some great laugh of the God's, you are right and Freescale comes to mac, I will by you a beer. Then tell you the G6 is still coming.

-- I like choleric meloncally people. We are what makes forums so fun.

Also, I am usually not so head strong about things like this....but it helps when you have a friend that is working on it....don't cha know!

Edit: Also would have been better if the forums did not keep going down.
Oh, and I am the source...
Crap I have to respond to that one....last time i checked, the market wasn't ran by socialist...the market gets what the markets wants. 1st rule of capitalist enconmy. And no, I am not calling you a socialist.....Bob.

[AidenShaw]

Windows hasn't been a true 64-bit system for over a year - Longhorn is where it really starts later this year (or even 2006). ....

Their 64-bit OS is designed to coincide with the 64-bit Pentium chip. G5/Tiger have a 12/36 month lead on Windows 64/P64 apparently (you can search for this, Steve Jobs commented on it himself).

Gee, I can also search the public record of Microsoft Windows 64-bit releases:

2000/07/12 - Microsoft and Intel Announce Preview Release of 64-Bit Windows for Intel Itanium Processor (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2000/jul00/itaniumpr.asp)

2001/08/28 - Microsoft Corp. today announced the general availability of Microsoft® Windows® Advanced Server, Limited Edition, Microsoft’s first server offering for the 64-bit computing environment based on Intel Corp.’s Itanium processor. (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2001/aug01/08-28AdvancedServerLEpr.asp)

2002/05/02 - Microsoft Extends 64-Bit Computing Efforts With Support for Intel’s Itanium 2 Processor (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2002/may02/05-08itanium2pr.asp)

2003/03/28 - Microsoft Releases Windows XP 64-Bit Edition Version 2003 to Manufacturing (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/mar03/03-28WinXP64BitPR.asp)

2004/01/06 (initial for AMD64)
2004/08/24 (update for EM64T) - Windows Server 2003 x64 Beta Customer Preview Program (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit/x64/trial/default.mspx) Use the links on the right to download the trial software or order the CD Kit.

2004/02/05 (initial for AMD64 (http://www.winnetmag.com/Article/ArticleID/41701/41701.html))
2004/09/24 (update for EM64T) - Windows XP Professional x64 Edition Customer Preview Program (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/evaluation/upgrade.mspx) Welcome! If you have a 64-bit ready PC, you now have the option to receive trial software for Windows XP Professional x64 Edition via CD or download.
_________________________________

I've used Windows 2000 64-bit beta on Alpha processors, long ago.

Whereas Apple isn't letting you touch whatever 64-bit support is in OS X 10.4 without an NDA, Microsoft has been shipping true 64-bit Windows for over 3 years! They've had a full preview for AMD64 freely downloadable since February, and updated it last month for EM64T (the Pentium 64-bit moniker).

Windows on x64 is mostly a recompile of the true 64-bit source code that's been shipping for over 3 years, but Apple is starting from scratch.

Did Jobs really say that OS X is 1 to 3 years ahead in the 64-bit game. ROTFLOL !!

[Maxx Power]

I'm willing to bet that Freescale's more likely to get a dual-core solution into a mobile format before IBM does, because they have the low-power experience and IBM mostly ships servers and big iron. After all, IBM's delivered on all their promises so... Oh wait, no they haven't.

It's just as logical to say that IBM's blown the deal and that there will never, ever be a 970 in an Apple product ever again.


Yep. Apple is the dirty player here, its entirely their fault if they poured millions of marketing dollars into the "Velocity Engine" and the "G4" market names and then when motorolla has problems and it makes apple look bad, Steve just blames the producers. Apple doesn't produce their own chips, its easy for them to externalize the problems to some third party, I was moto, i'd be very pissed at apple for blaming progress problems on me when it was apple who hyped and over hyped the abilities of the G4, keep in mind the primary customer of the "G4" chip is Cisco and affiliates, who use it for strictly embedded applications where general purpose performance is not required. We saw it again with the G5, or in my opinion, the more appriopriate name would the PPC970, apple hyped and over hyped again this on this processor, and when IBM, like the rest of the silicon businesses around, slips a step, Apple blatantly blames the problems on the producer. If you can't even produce chips yourself, or don't want to because you can't be man enough to take financial losses, stop blaming others. Apple did this with the CPU makers, they did it with the video chipset makers what with the fiasco of Jobs vs. ATI, and the 6800U not being delivered to apple on time. If i was any of these companies, and had some conscience (will never happen), i'd make sure I don't deliver products or make things for apple, anyone who stiffs their own suppliers, retailers, and users deserves a 3% market share.

[tech4all]

so is your suggestion that they should skip the first rev and go straight to the second rev? :D :D

That can't happen. They can't have a Rev B unless they have a Rev A first. So if they went straight to a Rev B, that would actually be the Rev A. ;)


Now that I think about it, your probably werne't being serious, huh? :D :p :)

[JonR800]

Lets be honest.. Freescale won't happen. The G5 has much more marketing power than the Freescale line. Powerbook G5 sounds so much cooler than Powerbook dual core G4. :)

For the iBook versus PowerBook, there's not much of a reason to get a 12" PB. However the 15" has the resolution advantage. Something which Apple really needs to look at. I hope the next PB revision has a WS 12".

[Dazabrit UK]

Gee, I can also search the public record of Microsoft Windows 64-bit releases:

2000/07/12 - Microsoft and Intel Announce Preview Release of 64-Bit Windows for Intel Itanium Processor (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2000/jul00/itaniumpr.asp)

2001/08/28 - Microsoft Corp. today announced the general availability of Microsoft® Windows® Advanced Server, Limited Edition, Microsoft’s first server offering for the 64-bit computing environment based on Intel Corp.’s Itanium processor. (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2001/aug01/08-28AdvancedServerLEpr.asp)

2002/05/02 - Microsoft Extends 64-Bit Computing Efforts With Support for Intel’s Itanium 2 Processor (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2002/may02/05-08itanium2pr.asp)

2003/03/28 - Microsoft Releases Windows XP 64-Bit Edition Version 2003 to Manufacturing (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/mar03/03-28WinXP64BitPR.asp)

2004/01/06 (initial for AMD64)
2004/08/24 (update for EM64T) - Windows Server 2003 x64 Beta Customer Preview Program (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/64bit/x64/trial/default.mspx) Use the links on the right to download the trial software or order the CD Kit.

2004/02/05 (initial for AMD64 (http://www.winnetmag.com/Article/ArticleID/41701/41701.html))
2004/09/24 (update for EM64T) - Windows XP Professional x64 Edition Customer Preview Program (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/evaluation/upgrade.mspx) Welcome! If you have a 64-bit ready PC, you now have the option to receive trial software for Windows XP Professional x64 Edition via CD or download.
_________________________________

I've used Windows 2000 64-bit beta on Alpha processors, long ago.

Whereas Apple isn't letting you touch whatever 64-bit support is in OS X 10.4 without an NDA, Microsoft has been shipping true 64-bit Windows for over 3 years! They've had a full preview for AMD64 freely downloadable since February, and updated it last month for EM64T (the Pentium 64-bit moniker).

Windows on x64 is mostly a recompile of the true 64-bit source code that's been shipping for over 3 years, but Apple is starting from scratch.

Did Jobs really say that OS X is 1 to 3 years ahead in the 64-bit game. ROTFLOL !!

FOR SOME STRANGE REASON, I GOT BANNED FROM THE FORUM (Swearing?) Are you crazy? Steve Jobs did say that and for very good reason. In the UK we havent had any kind of commercial release of a 64-bit operating system (apart from Linux). I know it's the UK but that's not the point. Even if it was a huge commercial success in America, it would be here now! The only 64-bit system we have had available is a free Beta from the website, that is fact. That is why I had to dump my 64-bit PC that I built specifically. Tiger is being released in the UK between March-June 2005 which means it is going to be the second 64-bit OS to the market behind Linux. We haven't seen anything from Microsoft at all (just a tester).

[Dazabrit UK]

I might be confusing the point...
What I am trying to say is in the UK Linux/Red Hat was first, Windows did release a Beta (Free Download) but that doesn't count as it's not a finished OS. Linux isn't too popular in a commercial sense in comparison, Microsoft has only released a Free Preview (over here) that leaves Tiger who is going to be the first commercial 64-bit release that I will be able to use properly. It may be different in the USA but I doubt it very much... ;)

[Dazabrit UK]

I need to get some sleep (it's 2.30am here) - I may stop by the forum tomorrow morning to see what's going on with Microsofts 64-Bit OS in the USA. Send me an email at: Dazabritatyahoodotcodotuk if you wanna lecture me some more on Win VS Mac (SIGH). :)

[AidenShaw]

In the UK we havent had any kind of commercial release of a 64-bit operating system (apart from Linux).

Did you think of going to www.microsoft.co.uk and looking?

http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windowsserversystem/windowsserver2003/product-information/product-overview.mspx

Windows Server 2003 scales from single processor solutions all the way up to 64-way systems. It supports both 32-bit and 64-bit processors.

In case the URL is mangled, it starts www.microsoft.com/uk/windowsserversystem....

Or how about http://www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/editions/64bit/default.mspx ?

(that's www.microsoft.com/uk/windows/editions/64bit... )

Both the IA64 versions of Server and Workstation (XP) are available in the UK. The preview versions for AMD/Intel 64-bit extensions can be downloaded now.

Now, why is this *behind* the 64-bit vaporware coming from Cupertino?

[Dazabrit UK]

I Checked it out and it's still an EVALUATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is not a commercially released Operating System!!!! Linux and Mac are going to have a final, purchaseable 64-bit OS before Microsoft unless they release it before June 05! It is a tester, same thing that is making it's rounds in the MAC developer community with Tiger. Neither of these count! We are talking final commercial releases aren't we?

Now, definately goin to get some sleep! :o

[Dazabrit UK]

Tiger and Longhorn (whatever the bloo*y) name is, are the real contenders for the OS's amongst us lot and from what I hear, Microsoft is still a long way off.

I have got to go before this ends up a Mac vs PC debate, I cant be doin with it. I'll have a heart attack and it is so incredibly sad and brainless! Lets agree to disagree. :)

[AidenShaw]

I Checked it out and it's still an EVALUATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is not a commercially released Operating System!!!! Linux and Mac are going to have a final, purchaseable 64-bit OS before Microsoft unless they release it before June 05!

Do you have a reading disability?

Windows 64-bit was released in August of 2001. It has been shipping and available for purchase for more than 3 years.

Linux 64-bit has been shipping for roughly the same period - both Linux and Windows on 64-bit is an established, mature product.

The only vaporware is from Cupertino - there is no released 64-bit Mac OS X. There isn't even an easily downloadable preview of a 64-bit OS X (unlike Windows and Linux).

What part of "mature, shipping operating systems" vs. "vaporware" don't you understand?

[iEric]

at least my system will be the high-end for another couple of months :)

[AidenShaw]

Tiger and Longhorn (whatever the bloo*y) name is, are the real contenders...

Whatever, but the fact remains that you and I can give Microsoft a Purchase Order for 64-bit Windows XP or 64-bit Windows Server today, and they will overnight us the product. Today.

We don't have to wait for Longhorn - XP/Server are 64-bit today. Three years ago we could have sent the P.O. for 64-bit Windows, and three years ago we would have received the 64-bit CDs.

Apple? Well, a few select people who've paid dearly for the privilege can run whatever Tiger has to offer for 64-bit - but they can't talk about it, it's non-disclosure.

[mcgarry]

For the iBook versus PowerBook, there's not much of a reason to get a 12" PB. However the 15" has the resolution advantage. Something which Apple really needs to look at. I hope the next PB revision has a WS 12".

I can probably agree that for some people there's not much difference, but for others there is, because as has already been pointed out, the 12" PB still has
*faster processor
*faster bus
*faster DDR SDRAM
*a better video card w/ more VRAM
*monitor spanning without a warranty-voiding hack
*mini DVI
*audio line-in
*options for SD and faster HD
... vs. the 12" iBook

Configured as close to identically as possible (with Combo, BT, and 60GB HD in both), and with the educational discount applied (forgive me), the price difference is only $338, not quite the number used earlier by someone else. The PB is also slightly smaller and lighter, and has an arguably better case. Put in those terms, I can see how a lot of people would still choose the PB when buying a 12" mac laptop. (Of course, I am biased and speaking from personal experience. The big clinchers for me were the monitor spanning, more vram, and faster bus.) So yes, I agree it can be not much, but for some people there still is a real difference, even one worth $338.

[Furrybeagle]

Let's estbalish a few things first:

The PB will not be updated this year. That is said and done.

The PB will not experiance a price drop. This is because that would kill iBook sales, and the iBook is going to be the primary holiday season notebook coming from Apple.

The G6 isnt coming for a while. The G6 will not come to Apple in consumer products (aka PowerMac, PowerBook, iBook, iMac, and most definately not eMac) until 2006 at the very earliest. The idea that the G6 will come to the PowerMac in Summer 05 when the PB will either be just venturing into G5 territory or dual-core territory (both extremely unlikely as it is) is absurd. That would put us in the same situation again. "Where's the G6 PB?" Saying that the PB will jump right over an entire generation of processors and going along with the PowerMac G5 is totally absurd. Not unless anyone has something that would make us believe otherwise.

Even though 64-bit could mean faster if the applications are written (that is very important), that doesn't mean that equals faster. Furthermore, megahertz can be equated into speed, but it is bottle-necked by the efficiany (SP?) and the FSB, among other things. So saying that more megahertz doesn't mean more speed at all is false, while saying that more megahertz means more speed period is also false. It is a factor of many things, mostly based on the fact that there are no bottle-necks and the efficiency of the processor. The same as apps have to be written to take advantage of 64-bit. Even though an OS can take advantage of the 64-bit processor, i beleive that is in most cases that is irrelevant. Both the OS and the software have to be written for 64-bit for you to see the real effects.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This whole PB thing has me really confused. When do I buy? Do I get the PB now:

Pros:
Works, no Rev A problems
Don't have to wait (my PC is annoying the crap outta me)
Know what I'm getting
I am satisified with the design

Cons:
New PB could be much faster
New PB could have better design
Could come out right after I get the current PB
Price of current PB might be rip-off

Ugghhh!!! What do i do!?!?! :mad:

[mnstatedude]

I guess that short statement will have pretty much killed off any sales off the current Powerbooks.

:confused: Why? The new iBooks can only compete with the 12" PB, and not very well at that. The graphics card in the PB, the possibility of another iBook update to make it fully Tiger compatible, and the weak upgraded specs should prevent sales of the new iBook except to the desperate or naive.

[~Shard~]

I haven't bothered reading all of the posts here, but I'll just say that this comes as no surprise to me. I've always said that we won't see G5 PowerBooks for another year, and the next revision to the line would most logically be something major (another minor update probably wouldn't cut it), so if this is the case, then this might mean a dual-core G4 system. But even this system may be a ways a way, and we would definitely not see this before Christmas. I expect some sort of announcement/release around MWSF possibly, but that would be at the earliest.

[Hattig]

Nothing "requires" 64-bit processing, and you can do 64-bit math on an 8-bit processor if you really feel like it. It just takes some juggling and more clock cycles. However, people that have been bitten by the 64-Bit Bug seem to think that the speedup on the x86 side is merely a function of that label, when the truth is that AMD has cleverly hidden the fact that they cripple the 64-bit processors when not in 64-bit mode. They added registers that only turn on in that mode, even though they could function as 32-bit registers.


The registers were ADDED to the AMD64 instruction set extension to x86 that AMD designed. They can be up to 64-bits long, although unless you ask for a 64-bit integer in your code you will still get a 32-bit integer as that is enough for most purposes. The extra registers in AMD64 improve performance quite a bit when you are in 64-bit mode, and they can and do function as 32-bit registers when in AMD64 mode.

Plain old x86 (IA32) HAS NO WAY to use those registers in the instruction set. So what you've written is completely untrue and misleading.

The processors are NOT CRIPPLED in 32-bit mode in any way. The fact that they are thrashing the Pentium 4 in 32-bit mode all the time still bears that out.

[thatwendigo]

2004/09/24 (update for EM64T) - Windows XP Professional x64 Edition Customer Preview Program (http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/64bit/evaluation/upgrade.mspx) Welcome! If you have a 64-bit ready PC, you now have the option to receive trial software for Windows XP Professional x64 Edition via CD or download.

In all fairness, Aidan, I'm willing to concede that Microsoft has hit the 64-bit marketing point first. However, this single link is the only one with any credibility as being even remotely a consumer release of the operating system. The others are all enterprise level software, and probably priced to match that expectation.

Windows on x64 is mostly a recompile of the true 64-bit source code that's been shipping for over 3 years, but Apple is starting from scratch.

Well, I certainly hope that their "true 64-bit source code that's been shipping for over 3 years" is better than their patchy, hole-ridden lack of security that they've been shipping since God only knows when. The fact that code is older doesn't really prove anything except its age, and it certainly doesn't attest to any kind of value. After all, Microsoft has been in the game about as long as Apple, and yet they've still clung to the same horrible security model the whole time, only just now getting to a point where they might even consider the possibility of altering it to escape the morass of viri, trojans, worms, exploits, and backdoors that they created for themselves.

Yep. Apple is the dirty player here, its entirely their fault if they poured millions of marketing dollars into the "Velocity Engine" and the "G4" market names and then when motorolla has problems and it makes apple look bad, Steve just blames the producers.

Uh. Yeah.

It is the producer's fault if they make promises they can't back up and Apple runs with them, telling the public what was given to them in trust. This happened numerous times with Motorola, who would tell Apple tht they were bringing out Part X for shipping, only to recant and leave them in the lurch. As Jobs said at the last WWDC, the same basic problem has now arisen with IBM, who promised more than they could achieve with the 970 chip and once more left Apple with egg on their faces.

Is some of the responsibility Apple's? Sure, but you can't tar them for it and leave the suppliers untouched.


I was moto, i'd be very pissed at apple for blaming progress problems on me when it was apple who hyped and over hyped the abilities of the G4, keep in mind the primary customer of the "G4" chip is Cisco and affiliates, who use it for strictly embedded applications where general purpose performance is not required.

I'd be willing to bet that the primary customer of P-rated chips for Motorola was Apple, and they'd have been losing money if they sold those parts underclocked to the embedded market. It's not as if dealing parts to Cupertino was exactly costing Motorola money, and you seem to have forgotten that Apple, IBM, and Motorola were all a part of the original movement to push the PowerPC to begin with. Without IBM's patents, Apple's support, and Motorola's contributions, there would be a far smaller and more limited market for their processors. Oh, and you're short-sighted if you think networking is the big place for PowerPC. Do a search for specific G4 model numbers and you'll come across a ridiculous slew of defense contractors that use them.

We saw it again with the G5, or in my opinion, the more appriopriate name would the PPC970, apple hyped and over hyped again this on this processor, and when IBM, like the rest of the silicon businesses around, slips a step, Apple blatantly blames the problems on the producer. If you can't even produce chips yourself, or don't want to because you can't be man enough to take financial losses, stop blaming others.

They related what IBM told them. Do I need to repeat that again? Is it that hard to understand?

Apple did this with the CPU makers, they did it with the video chipset makers what with the fiasco of Jobs vs. ATI, and the 6800U not being delivered to apple on time. If i was any of these companies, and had some conscience (will never happen), i'd make sure I don't deliver products or make things for apple, anyone who stiffs their own suppliers, retailers, and users deserves a 3% market share.

Exactly how is Apple "stiffing" any of their vendors? If anything, they're the ones who don't support Apple, dragging their feet and handing over the least they can get away with. That goes double for ATI and nVidia, who are only just now starting to make a serious effort to push their higher end products on the mac, and who have never really tried to achieve any sort of retail presence in the market. Sure, we have a smaller marketshare, but the installed base isn't that bad and people tend to hold onto their macs. The upgrade market is probably at least as big as the OEM one, if not even larger, and it makes no sense not to be taking advantage of that with driver recompiles and flashed cards.

Of course, realizing that means giving Apple some credit, and we couldn't have that... :rolleyes:

--

As a final note... Thank you, Furrybeagle. I might not agree with everything you said, but it's at least based on the world as it exists, with some basis in reality.

With regards to your PowerBook dilemma, I'll give the same advice I'd give anyone looking to buy a computer. Unless you have inside information regarding product releases, buy what you need now and use it. If something far better comes along soon, realize that it doesn't make your machine any slower, nor does it remove what you can do with your investment. It just means that the top-end has moved somewhat.

Do you get mad if a car manufacturer releases a new model? If not, then why worry if your computer is "outdated" by a future release?

[tranquilitybase]

I ordered a PB 12" on Oct. 2, and I am still desparately waiting for it. After frequent calls to Apple and complaining, I finally found a sympathetic individual today. I asked this individual if they believed my PB would ship today (10/20) as estimated. They said, "Realistically, no." I asked why. To this, they asked, "...would you be upset if a computer you bought just weeks ago was replaced with a newer model not long thereafter." I said, "Yes, of course. So, ... am I getting the old one or the new one?" They said, "The new one." I said, "Then, I'll shut up." (End of coversation) No solid date was given, but I sort of suspect tomorrow (10/21), because the estimated ship dates for the PB up until this last one was 7 days out from the previous. The last one was only 6 days out from the previous. I could care less about the update. I just want my computer!

[guylafleur]

I guess I`m what you would consider "outside of the computer industry", in other words an average user. I know little about 64 bits vs 32 bits etc. and to be honest, I couldn`t care less.
The new ibooks look great with the built in wireless cards. As an average user, who uses a laptop for business and study, I am interested 5 in things: Safety of data, quality, portability, ergonomics and economics. The new ibook has top marks across the board, but for my taste could use a little more in the way of battery power.

Am I the only one who would prefer the dual-core, low-power G4 chip to the G5 in a laptop? Apple needs something along the lines of the Pentium M, not a G5 in a laptop.

[Furrybeagle]

I'd say that the PB 12" is the best selling PB for people who want more than an iBook but don't want to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars. When going to a school, I have noticed that almost all the Aluminum PowerBooks teenagers have just happen to be 12".

It is more powerful than the iBook (before the current revision). And the 12" PB didn't cost too much more either. Now they're about the same spped, and for people like students at a school, now the iBook looks like the best option. Powerful enough (because they are the most prone to believe in the MHz myth) and cheaper than the 12" PB.

[Koodauw]

I haven't bothered reading all of the posts here, but I'll just say that this comes as no surprise to me. I've always said that we won't see G5 PowerBooks for another year, and the next revision to the line would most logically be something major (another minor update probably wouldn't cut it), so if this is the case, then this might mean a dual-core G4 system. But even this system may be a ways a way, and we would definitely not see this before Christmas. I expect some sort of announcement/release around MWSF possibly, but that would be at the earliest.

Ill second this. I findi it rather dissapointing, but if there is no proccessor available to Apple, then this is the way it must be. A dual core system would be nice, but doesnt seem like it willbe around anytime soon. A G5 will be equally as nice, although I wonder after seeing some of those iMac G5 benchmarks, I am a bit worried. Either way it gives me more time to save up, and I am sure it will be worth the wait.

[Maxx Power]

It is the producer's fault if they make promises they can't back up and Apple runs with them, telling the public what was given to them in trust. This happened numerous times with Motorola, who would tell Apple tht they were bringing out Part X for shipping, only to recant and leave them in the lurch. As Jobs said at the last WWDC, the same basic problem has now arisen with IBM, who promised more than they could achieve with the 970 chip and once more left Apple with egg on their faces.

Is some of the responsibility Apple's? Sure, but you can't tar them for it and leave the suppliers untouched.

I'd be willing to bet that the primary customer of P-rated chips for Motorola was Apple, and they'd have been losing money if they sold those parts underclocked to the embedded market. It's not as if dealing parts to Cupertino was exactly costing Motorola money, and you seem to have forgotten that Apple, IBM, and Motorola were all a part of the original movement to push the PowerPC to begin with. Without IBM's patents, Apple's support, and Motorola's contributions, there would be a far smaller and more limited market for their processors. Oh, and you're short-sighted if you think networking is the big place for PowerPC. Do a search for specific G4 model numbers and you'll come across a ridiculous slew of defense contractors that use them.

They related what IBM told them. Do I need to repeat that again? Is it that hard to understand?

Exactly how is Apple "stiffing" any of their vendors? If anything, they're the ones who don't support Apple, dragging their feet and handing over the least they can get away with. That goes double for ATI and nVidia, who are only just now starting to make a serious effort to push their higher end products on the mac, and who have never really tried to achieve any sort of retail presence in the market. Sure, we have a smaller marketshare, but the installed base isn't that bad and people tend to hold onto their macs. The upgrade market is probably at least as big as the OEM one, if not even larger, and it makes no sense not to be taking advantage of that with driver recompiles and flashed cards.

Of course, realizing that means giving Apple some credit, and we couldn't have that... :rolleyes:



Bottomline is, if Apple is not in charge of the semiconductor business, which drives the rest of the hardware industry, Apple shouldn't be making claims. But as they are, they must do so because that's what marketing is all about. Apple promised you the fastest desktop computer with the G5, and if you test it to be otherwise, can you blame IBM ? Apple claims the G4 to be a super computer, but super computer operates in the TeraFlops, can you blame Moto ? Both companies did Apple good when they decided to pick up apple's business, as untempting as it might be to serve 3% of the market as a goal. I personally would have too, back when Apple was a computer company driven by ideas, not as driven by looks and talks as much as it is today comparatively. Or, i suppose if you look at their income, a part time music company. If you want to find out how they stiff their dealers, retailers, just go to www.tellonapple.org, suing apple for unfair business practices. Apple gave them products at higher costs than their own Apple stores to the point where the individual cost of the computers was higher than what the computers were going for in the Apple Stores with discounts and bundles. This drove many dealers out of business. There are many other unfair conducts of this nature, i support those guys and contacted the guy in charge, they agreed that apple is a good cause but needs to reform the company.

I give credit to those who deserve it. What apple does is economical business, not miracles, art, science, etc. They do what they can in terms of effort to remain prosperous, and greed, my friend, is against my conscience and beliefs. Corporations in general do not deserve anything, each one of them is about as filthy as the next, and they care about you as much as you care about your backyard ants. I give people credit, not artificial entities created to generate money to the already rich. The individual engineers who works for apple to design things under the tight commands of Jobs deserves credit, but that is not apple. Those engineers do not run the corporation. Those poor workers in China who assemble these products deserves my recognition and respect, but not those fatcats who benefits from all this who are in charge.

[Chung Tech]

... To this, they asked, "...would you be upset if a computer you bought just weeks ago was replaced with a newer model not long thereafter." I said, "Yes, of course. So, ... am I getting the old one or the new one?" They said, "The new one." I said, "Then, I'll shut up." (End of coversation)

I really want to believe this is true, because I am looking forward to getting an updated powerbook, but how likely is it? If the updated powerbooks are so close to being available, why not announce the update at the same time with the iBook update?

I still want to believe this is true though :)

[pkkrusty]

I thought 2004 was announced as the year of the portable or something to that effect. I haven't been impressed. No real revolutionary products have been put out this year.

[mmork]

Lets be honest.. Freescale won't happen. The G5 has much more marketing power than the Freescale line. Powerbook G5 sounds so much cooler than Powerbook dual core G4.



...you may want to remember that a cool sounding name is not the most important thing in a notebook. A dual-core G4 (or whatever Apple will call them) will most probably consume less power and therefore provide longer battery life, cooler temperature, less noise, all other things being equal. It will blow away a G5 in notebooks. Give me a dual-core G4 any day.

MM

[JFreak]

I thought 2004 was announced as the year of the portable or something to that effect. I haven't been impressed. No real revolutionary products have been put out this year.

no, it was 2003 that was touted as "the year of the laptop". oh yeah, we saw aluminum powerbooks finally in the 15" enclosure, too, but otherwise it just meant that apple now sells more laptops than desktops. steve is more excited about it than you and i ;)

[earthtoandy]

That can't happen. They can't have a Rev B unless they have a Rev A first. So if they went straight to a Rev B, that would actually be the Rev A. ;)


Now that I think about it, your probably werne't being serious, huh? :D :p :)
yeeeah.. that was a joke

[Dalriada]

I can probably agree that for some people there's not much difference...., the 12" PB still has
...vs. the 12" iBook


Is the display on the 12"PB now identical to the latest 12" iBook ? No advantage for the PB ?

[cb911]

well i'm not too surprised about this. the rate that things were going, it would only have been a speed bump, probablying only a few hundred MHz.

but the dual-core G4 was reported to only be ready for sampling, not production, early next year. makes you wonder, what Apple's going to do... :confused:

hopefully by next year there will be significant upgrades available, not just a speed bump.

[AidenShaw]

In all fairness, Aidan, I'm willing to concede that Microsoft has hit the 64-bit marketing point first. However, this single link is the only one with any credibility as being even remotely a consumer release of the operating system. The others are all enterprise level software, and probably priced to match that expectation.

Uh-oh, does this foreshadow another campaign like the G5 intro's "first 64-bit desktop computer" - a big lie unless you redefine the meaning of the word "desktop".

Will Apple announce the "first 64-bit desktop operating system" - and ignore the fact that Linux 64-bit desktops are shipping today, as well as the various UNIX and Windows releases?

As to "enterprise level" - don't overlook that you need to add $3720 (Dell) to $4650 (PM G5) of additional memory to actually *use* the chief feature of a 64-bit operating system - the ability for a single process to address more than 4 GiB of RAM in a flat address space. That price tag would surely eliminate most "consumer level" users!


Well, I certainly hope that their "true 64-bit source code that's been shipping for over 3 years" is better than their patchy, hole-ridden lack of security that they've been shipping since God only knows when.

The fact that code is older doesn't really prove anything except its age, and it certainly doesn't attest to any kind of value.

After all, Microsoft has been in the game about as long as Apple, and yet they've still clung to the same horrible security model the whole time, only just now getting to a point where they might even consider the possibility of altering it to escape the morass of viri, trojans, worms, exploits, and backdoors that they created for themselves.

Right, Apple's never had a security patch, and certainly wouldn't ship something with a buffer overflow bug so that simply looking at a picture file could allow a bad guy to take over your machine. ;)

And I believe that you are wrong that the experience of shipping 64-bit operating systems for 3 years doesn't prove anything. With Windows 64-bit, you'll know that the core 64-bit functionality has had a lot of testing and refinement. With OS X, you'll be getting Version .0 of 64-bit code.

And, your comment "[MS] might even consider the possibility" is disingenuous. SP2 is proof that they not only considered, but in fact implemented and shipped some significant improvements to the security model.
______________________


Let's not get too far off on this tangent though - my argument is directed at the claim that Jobs said that OS X had a 1 to 3 year head start over Windows in the 64-bit arena.

That statement seems rather ludicrous when you look at the facts.

.

[clabbe deinum]

as many have said, the p-m is getting better end better.. and powerbook have to be uppgraded i dont want a g5 but at least a hotter g4, im in for the small ones and I just found a nice sony vaio

13,3 tft wide
p-m 1.8
512
80
1.9 kg
wlan
bt

i cant remember all stats but i got really turnd on by it;-P so i hopa apple do something soon som my money dont have to go a pc... couse i need a laptop about yestarday...

[VicMacs]

as many have said, the p-m is getting better end better.. and powerbook have to be uppgraded i dont want a g5 but at least a hotter g4, im in for the small ones and I just found a nice sony vaio

13,3 tft wide
p-m 1.8
512
80
1.9 kg
wlan
bt

i cant remember all stats but i got really turnd on by it;-P so i hopa apple do something soon som my money dont have to go a pc... couse i need a laptop about yestarday...


god help him....

[awesomebase]

It may have already been said, but this is just typical Apple. They go ahead officially with the policy that they do not comment on future products, yet they basically say hey, there is no update coming for the PowerBook. Isn't that breaking their own policy? As much as I love their products, I have to say that it is an extremely difficult relationship. On the one hand, they produce awesome products. On the other hand, their update cycles are at best slow to come and below expectations (mind you, many of those expectations are too much for ANY company). Of course that means they're good at keeping things under the radar, but, I think Apple really misses the boat when it comes to providing Windows users with what they want.
In the Windows world, prices are adjusted practically every week on systems. People that buy Windows PCs are generally inclined to watch for sales, get plenty of useful promos, periodic and frequent price adjustments, etc. Apple I think, really misses the boat here. If they don't update their main "Professional Product" for anywhere between 9 months to 1 year or more, how do they expect "switchers" to buy? They don't even do a periodic price reduction taking into account things like severe price drops in memory, processors, etc. It would have been much more to their favor if, after the iBook updates, they simply dropped the price on the PBs by $200, $300, and $400 for the 12", 15" and 17" PBs respectively (or some other amounts) instead of basically telling everyone, hey, there are no new PBs coming in the forseeable future. Well, I don't think that kind of statement will bring about switchers to the PB line at all, and Apple needs to get that kind of market share instead of trying to sell just iMacs and iBooks. Have a one-day sale on their products for once! I honestly believe that Apple's market share will not increase until they make a determined effort to understand the buying habits and incentives of people in the Windows world. Saying they're not coming out with new updates to their pro-line of laptops just a couple of months after saying that a PB G5 is a LONG way off hardly enforces any kind of reassurance or certainty in the purchasing decision, especially for those outside the Mac community.
Having said that, here are some things I would like to see in new PBs if we get them sometime next year:

Increased screen resolutions on all models (at least as an option)
Increased standard memory to minimum of 512MB (this is the pro line after all)
Scroll feature on the touchpad
Widescreen aspect ratio for the 12" PB (even if it means going to 13" to do it)
Glowing keyboard on all models
Better power-cord connector (stronger too)
More video card options available (128MB and 256MB if possible)
This is perhaps the most important one for me personally - PLEASE INTRODUCE AN APPLE DOCKING STATION FOR ALL MODELS!!


That would be my wishlist...

[Diatribe]

It may have already been said, but this is just typical Apple. They go ahead officially with the policy that they do not comment on future products, yet they basically say hey, there is no update coming for the PowerBook. Isn't that breaking their own policy? As much as I love their products, I have to say that it is an extremely difficult relationship. On the one hand, they produce awesome products. On the other hand, their update cycles are at best slow to come and below expectations (mind you, many of those expectations are too much for ANY company). Of course that means they're good at keeping things under the radar, but, I think Apple really misses the boat when it comes to providing Windows users with what they want.
In the Windows world, prices are adjusted practically every week on systems. People that buy Windows PCs are generally inclined to watch for sales, get plenty of useful promos, periodic and frequent price adjustments, etc. Apple I think, really misses the boat here. If they don't update their main "Professional Product" for anywhere between 9 months to 1 year or more, how do they expect "switchers" to buy? They don't even do a periodic price reduction taking into account things like severe price drops in memory, processors, etc. It would have been much more to their favor if, after the iBook updates, they simply dropped the price on the PBs by $200, $300, and $400 for the 12", 15" and 17" PBs respectively (or some other amounts) instead of basically telling everyone, hey, there are no new PBs coming in the forseeable future. Well, I don't think that kind of statement will bring about switchers to the PB line at all, and Apple needs to get that kind of market share instead of trying to sell just iMacs and iBooks. Have a one-day sale on their products for once! I honestly believe that Apple's market share will not increase until they make a determined effort to understand the buying habits and incentives of people in the Windows world. Saying they're not coming out with new updates to their pro-line of laptops just a couple of months after saying that a PB G5 is a LONG way off hardly enforces any kind of reassurance or certainty in the purchasing decision, especially for those outside the Mac community.
Having said that, here are some things I would like to see in new PBs if we get them sometime next year:

Increased screen resolutions on all models (at least as an option)
Increased standard memory to minimum of 512MB (this is the pro line after all)
Scroll feature on the touchpad
Widescreen aspect ratio for the 12" PB (even if it means going to 13" to do it)
Glowing keyboard on all models
Better power-cord connector (stronger too)
More video card options available (128MB and 256MB if possible)
This is perhaps the most important one for me personally - PLEASE INTRODUCE AN APPLE DOCKING STATION FOR ALL MODELS!!


That would be my wishlist...


You forget that not adjusting the prices results in a much higher (resale)value of the products, which is why a lot of people by Macs also.

[adamjay]

They managed the iMac G5 down to 2" thick, but that's twice the size of a PB. Eek!

isnt much of that due to the 3 times thicker desktop 3.5" hard drive?

[adamjay]

I thought 2004 was announced as the year of the portable or something to that effect. I haven't been impressed. No real revolutionary products have been put out this year.

not on the mac side,
but AMD did ship their Athlon 64 3700 DTR. and it is QUITE impressive.

[clabbe deinum]

god help him....

i don't think he will, otherwise a uppgrade of the pb would happen today.. i never said i would buy the vaio, it costs about 2700$ in us (3100$ in sweden) so its out of my range.. but its a fast small computer, and they are getting closer than ever to the g4 pb.

[MacSA]

as many have said, the p-m is getting better end better.. and powerbook have to be uppgraded i dont want a g5 but at least a hotter g4, im in for the small ones and I just found a nice sony vaio

13,3 tft wide
p-m 1.8
512
80
1.9 kg
wlan
bt

i cant remember all stats but i got really turnd on by it;-P so i hopa apple do something soon som my money dont have to go a pc... couse i need a laptop about yestarday...


I bet there are quite a few people looking back to the PC Laptop market now :( - and not just potential switchers. If Apple are unable to make improvements to the Powerbooks for quite a while, they should at least have dropped the prices to make them more appealing.

[clabbe deinum]

I bet there are quite a few people looking back to the PC Laptop market now :( - and not just potential switchers. If Apple are unable to make improvements to the Powerbooks for quite a while, they should at least have dropped the prices to make them more appealing.

yeah that would, problably, make me buy right away..

[purplehaze]

WOW ....where did you get that from?

Believe it or not, I got it from an Aldi store in Glasgow. Up here we had some adverts in our Sunday papers a couple of weeks before they came out. After a quick look at the specs and price I knew I couldn't turn this one down.

It's a Gericom Ego - it was on limited release, so I think it might have gone by now, but you might want to try your local store or phone Aldi. Trust me, it's worth the money...

[rog]

Guess we're all stuck with 2002 era specs in powerbooks for the forseeable future. Ouch!

[AidenShaw]

Even though 64-bit could mean faster if the applications are written (that is very important), that doesn't mean that equals faster....

Current 1GiB DDR400 SO-DIMMs have a maximum heat dissipation of 24 watts. :eek:
(http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/DRAM/DDRSDRAM/DDRSDRAMmodule/SODIMM/M470L2923BN0/M470L2923BN0.htm)


So, that 8 GiB you'd want to actually use 64-bit addressing would require up to 192 watts of power for the memory.

Hmmm, maybe the power consumption of the PPC970 wouldn't be the big problem after all....

[Furrybeagle]

With regards to your PowerBook dilemma, I'll give the same advice I'd give anyone looking to buy a computer. Unless you have inside information regarding product releases, buy what you need now and use it. If something far better comes along soon, realize that it doesn't make your machine any slower, nor does it remove what you can do with your investment. It just means that the top-end has moved somewhat.

Do you get mad if a car manufacturer releases a new model? If not, then why worry if your computer is "outdated" by a future release?

I'm looking to get this near the end of the year (if i do). Since that is off for me, that would give me some time to work with it and transfer over (i have over 15 gigs of documents on my pc to sort through, none of them are downloaded movies or software or even music for that matter). So I have to figure out what to mvoe and then move it, and that will require sometime.

And about getting disappointed when they come out with new hardware, I guess its a thing from the PC world, where you get about 2 weeks with a powerful system. :rolleyes:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I agree that Apple should offer periodic sales, but that is not going to happen for just the PB alone until they update it. It would kill the iBook sales. Must I keep repeating this. Since the PowerBook is for Power users, and power users tend to get the hardware when they need it, that means they aren't all going to get the PB during the holiday season just because it is the holiday season. That means that the iBook gets much greater sales from the holiday season. That is why they can't kill the sales of the iBook with a PB price drop. That is all there is to it! (note the EXTRA emphasis)

[manu chao]

I agree that Apple should offer periodic sales, but that is not going to happen for just the PB alone until they update it. It would kill the iBook sales. Must I keep repeating this. Since the PowerBook is for Power users, and power users tend to get the hardware when they need it, that means they aren't all going to get the PB during the holiday season just because it is the holiday season. That means that the iBook gets much greater sales from the holiday season. That is why they can't kill the sales of the iBook with a PB price drop. That is all there is to it! (note the EXTRA emphasis)

Even if a price drop for the Powerbooks shifted some buyers from the iBook to the Powerbook (which is rather likely) what would Apple loose? It would have higher revenues, Powerbook prices will still be higher per unit than iBook prices, and maybe even higher profits. I would guess the margins on the Powerbook are higher than on the iBook, after a price drop on the latter they probably could do the same for the former without changing that ratio. Even if relative margins were the same (e.g. 25%), the higher prices for the Powerbooks would still mean higher profits, than they would have with selling iBooks instead of the Powerbooks.

[Furrybeagle]

Supposing that they lowered the price of the PB to the price of the iBook, that would:

-Kill revenues for a system that they have just spent money updating.
-Lower resale value, making some customers angry.
-DECREASE profits.

The iBook is accurately priced. Despite how close the PB 12" is, it is still better in certain respects. Lowering the PB price would be giving people a better system at the same price as an iBook. And if the iBook, we all agree, is accurately priced, than that certainly doesn't mean that Apple is making profits on an underpriced machine.

Or to simply put it, when you say what does apple have to loose, they won't be profitting from a better system for the same price as a more average system.

Now for the 15" and 17" models, thats a completely different story. If I was Apple, I would:

-make all PowerBooks 1.5GHz across the board or something slightly higher that is over clocked.
-add higher resolution screens (1152x860 for 12", other models don't matter as much)
-and perhaps add lightup keyboard for 12" PB as an extra.

Doing this will one shut people up (to put it bluntly). It will be enough of an update to renew atleast part of the PB. What things do people generally want now in the PB. Lightup screen on the 12". Done. Higher Resolution Screens. Done. Faster Proccesors. Done (to a certain extent). It won't be anything new but it would satisfy people enough until Apple can get the new models out.

Now if Apple was really good, they would also upgrade the video cards in the machine. Increase the RAM size for the 12" to allow 128. And perhaps itroduce an updated GeForce FX. For the 15" and 17", either go 9800, x600 (or whatever is ATi's new mobile video card is) or 6600 (or whatever the new one is called). That would have me buying in an instant. :D

[sw1tcher]

yeah that would, problably, make me buy right away..

Same here. But Apple would have to drop the prices by at least $200 for me. Otherwise, I'm still going to wait it out until MWSF.

[Seanb23]

I'm telling y'all, there are lots of people out there who would happily snap up a bulkier, hotter, heavier 17" pbook with modern mobile hardware in it. I would be willing to tote around the extra weight, anyway, just to be able to have some damn headroom when running multiple heavy duty tasks...

[thediesel]

Regarding the next processor, I have been all over the place in terms of what I want over the past months, with the wishes of g5 shift to dual core g4, and so on. But realistically, it is seeming that dual core processors will not be ready in time, and the g5 will take a lot of work to efficiently squeeze into the powerbook.

What I am expecting is a pb update sometime in January or February. The upgrade might be a standard processor upgrade and such, the last revolution of the current line, or they will introduce the next revolution. If the next revolution is introduced, I do not expect the processor to be a g5 or labeled as a g4. For all we know, Freescale or IBM could be working on a mobile edition processor that is not heavily g4 or g5. I bet Apple would want it to be able to handle 64 bit, but it will probably not be the same as the g5. There have been rumors of a freescale processor similar to this in the works, and maybe it is something Apple has up its sleeve to make the powerbooks new again.

A year for an update is a long time. We all know how quickly technology progresses and Apple must capture this and show us notebooks that are a year newer than the current line. Regardless of what processor is in it (the current ones are quite fast, but there is more than speed in regards to a computer) there should be some significant changes. These may include better screens, better standard ram, improved video, or other little things that would make the overall package better. I will be purchasing an apple notebook in the next months, and I'm hoping that I will be able to get something on the cutting edge.

[themacman]

well in simple words this sucks.

[sw1tcher]

Supposing that they lowered the price of the PB to the price of the iBook, that would:

-Kill revenues for a system that they have just spent money updating.

I don't think a lower priced PB would kill revenues on the iBook since the PB has a higher sales margin than the iBook. And if priced carefully, the PB's may still have a higher margin than the iBook's even if they lowered prices on them. By lowering the PB's price, Apple may even end up increasing PB sales since they're already being viewed as overpriced by many people I know, not to mention a lot of people here.

-Lower resale value, making some customers angry.

Unfortunately, that's the way things usually are. Almost everything will have a lower resale value after it's been purchased. Apple's not in the business to make sure peoples hardware maintains a high resale value. It's just not possible.

-DECREASE profits.

Not necessarily so. A lower priced PB may still have a higher margin than the iBooks. If potential iBook buyers think the lower priced PB's are a better buy and they buy the PB's instead, Apple would benefit from the increased sales and higher margins of the PB's. Who knows how many people will buy PB's if their prices stay where they're at now.

What things do people generally want now in the PB.

On the 12" PB, a faster processor, a better GPU (with a 128MB GPU as a BTO option), a 60GB 5400rpm HDD as standard, and a lightup keyboard.

[sw1tcher]

I'm telling y'all, there are lots of people out there who would happily snap up a bulkier, hotter, heavier 17" pbook with modern mobile hardware in it. I would be willing to tote around the extra weight, anyway, just to be able to have some damn headroom when running multiple heavy duty tasks...

Bulkier? Yes. Heavier? Maybe. Hotter? No way. The PB's are already too hot as it is. Leaving a current model PB on my lap long enough would really hurt. Badly! :eek:

[Florida Gator]

Id be very let down if the powerbooks got any bigger.

[Nermal]

The Buyers' Guide still says not to buy, updates soon. Somebody might want to change it :)

[aswitcher]

The Buyers' Guide still says not to buy, updates soon. Somebody might want to change it :)


:D

[blizzard_nz]

I want a 17 inch powerbook.

Do I buy now, wait a few weeks or possibly into next year???

I don't want to wait until next year - I want my powerbook now!!!

The way I see it is that Apple have to release a upgrade within a month surely - even if its only a small one.

And I would happily buy a 1.5 to 1.75 inch thick G5 powerbook, maybe they could chuck in a 6 hour battery possibly?

[Diatribe]

I want a 17 inch powerbook.

Do I buy now, wait a few weeks or possibly into next year???

I don't want to wait until next year - I want my powerbook now!!!

The way I see it is that Apple have to release a upgrade within a month surely - even if its only a small one.

And I would happily buy a 1.5 to 1.75 inch thick G5 powerbook, maybe they could chuck in a 6 hour battery possibly?

Ask yourself whether you'd need the power of a G5, if not then get the Powerbook now. It's an awesome machine and will last quite a while, even IF(and I still doubt that) G5 PBs come out at MWSF '05.
Go ahead, buy it and be happy.

[blizzard_nz]

Yeah - i know. I don't need the power of a G5, but it would be nice of course.

Guess I can buy a G4 17inch knowing the all the bugs are sorted out and I will get a good run out of it, and that in 3 years powerbooks will be lucky to be twice as fast anyway.

Like everyone, I would be pissed off if a G5 comes out in Jan 05 after forking out so-much money for a end of the line model. I believe they should bring the price down, much like how a auto-manufacture has a clearance sale for the about to be out of date model.

Maybe, just maybe I can get it in wrting when I buy it that "if a G5 or dual processor model comes out within three months, that I can then return my model for a automatic upgrade".

[JFreak]

I don't want to wait until next year - I want my powerbook now!!! The way I see it is that Apple have to release a upgrade within a month surely - even if its only a small one. And I would happily buy a 1.5 to 1.75 inch thick G5 powerbook, maybe they could chuck in a 6 hour battery possibly?

i see you have the powerbook fever :) there's no way current powerbook design will have a 6h battery life and there's very little possibility of a speed bump within a month. more likely they will announce powerbook update in january, and even then it might take few months to actually begin shipping.

if you want a powerbook and are happy with current line, just buy it and never look back. if you are afraid of powerbooks being updated right after you buy one, well, then just wait for the next update and be the first one to order the new one.

but know this: there will always be the next version, so even if you waited for the update, you could easily begin waiting for the next generation powerbook because you listen to the rumors of "imminent release" or whatever - and then you being to wait for the next generation revB model because someone assures you never to buy a revA product.... it goes on and on ;)

just buy it when you NEED it.

[blizzard_nz]

i see you have the powerbook fever :) there's no way current powerbook design will have a 6h battery life and there's very little possibility of a speed bump within a month. more likely they will announce powerbook update in january, and even then it might take few months to actually begin shipping.

if you want a powerbook and are happy with current line, just buy it and never look back. if you are afraid of powerbooks being updated right after you buy one, well, then just wait for the next update and be the first one to order the new one.

but know this: there will always be the next version, so even if you waited for the update, you could easily begin waiting for the next generation powerbook because you listen to the rumors of "imminent release" or whatever - and then you being to wait for the next generation revB model because someone assures you never to buy a revA product.... it goes on and on ;)

just buy it when you NEED it.


true true. OK - thats it, I am buying one now. If one get release in Jan, who cares cause I don't wanna wait till March for delivery anyhow.

5-6 hour battery life, well you never know. If they made a phat powerbook, with a G5 at 1.75 inchs thick, there might be space left over to almost double the battery size - I know I would buy one. But I agree with many, that apple are about design and being sleekness, but somehow they have to have to G5 in there in 2005.

[johnnyjibbs]

Maybe, just maybe I can get it in wrting when I buy it that "if a G5 or dual processor model comes out within three months, that I can then return my model for a automatic upgrade".
Good luck with that. ;)

General rule with Apple: Buy as soon after an update as possible because generally they bump each line every six months or so, with a major bump (i.e. G3 to G4 or G4 to G5) every few years. I don't think the elusive G5 PowerBook will be THAT much of a step up from the G4, because they will have to cripple it somewhat to get it in there and they're hardly going to make them much thicker, shorter battery life, etc.

Obviously, sometimes you have to buy something - therefore if you NEED it, just get it now. But if you can afford to wait, you might want to.

It's a bit tricky with the current PBs. They've been out since April so are due for an update. But the new iBook speed bump and the comments by Apple that started this thread suggests there will not be an update in the coming weeks. However, this then suggests that there will be something BIG in the next update - proabably MWSF in January.

So, my advice: if you NEED it, buy now and enjoy. If you don't, wait 'til January. But whatever you do, don't wait a month then buy.

[vaprof]

I'd really like a 12" PB (having just switched from Windows, and
using a Dual 2.0 G5 at work and a G5 iMac at home), but I feel like
the price on the 12" PB is way too high now, relative to the 12" iBook.

I hate the idea of buying it now and have a revision come out in
two or three months, since it's not absolutely crucial that I have it
(lots of other new Mac toys to play with).

I feel like Apple's policy of playing things so close to the vest, with
such long update lags is really unfortunate. If I knew, with certainty,
that no PB revision was coming for 6-8 months, I'd buy now (especially
if the 12" PB price dropped by $300). If I knew with certainty that a
new PB was coming in 2-3 months, I'd happily wait. But not knowing
puts me in limbo.

Apple really needs to drop the price on the 12" PB, if nothing else.

[Diatribe]

The question is who would want a Rev. A G5 PB? I for one would rather buy a G4 Rev. C now than wait for that Rev. A
If there is no Rev. A G5 (I would think so, but you never know)... well then there'll be only a speedbump in which case it won't be worth to wait. I'd get it now unless it is really and solely a toy and you can wait for the Rev. B!! that would come out same time next year.

[bartelby]

I've recently ordered a 15" Powerbook with SuperDrive.
I decided not to wait for a couple of reasons:

1) It being pretty much an end of line product I'm hoping all the problems will have been sorted.

2) If my old 733Mhz Quicksilver can cope with all the stuff I can chuck at it then a 1.5GHz Powerbook should be fine, so I don't really need a dual core or a G5.

and
3) I've just started a degree course so I got edu. discount and the Cram and Jam offer. (Getting the PB and a 40GB iPod plus a wireless keyboard and mouse I saved a few hundred quid (£s))

[Dalriada]

I've just started a degree course so I got edu discount and the Cram and Jam offer

That reminds me of all the talk about the ending of the Cram & Jam offer paving way for possible PB upgrades.... :confused:

[wdlove]

I want a 17 inch powerbook.

Do I buy now, wait a few weeks or possibly into next year???

I don't want to wait until next year - I want my powerbook now!!!

The way I see it is that Apple have to release a upgrade within a month surely - even if its only a small one.

And I would happily buy a 1.5 to 1.75 inch thick G5 powerbook, maybe they could chuck in a 6 hour battery possibly?

If you want one now then go ahead. The PowerBook is an awesome machine, you won't be disappointed. With the problem of heat and getting the G5 in the 1" structure, makes it unlikely that we will see one soon. The dual core is is very likely, maybe at MWSF.

[dcentity2000]

I'm angry. Christmas is on the horizon and this appears to be Apple telling us that once we've bought all the Powerbooks, they're going to give them an update. In other words, better products for the same amount of money. This doesn't really encourage me to buy a Powerbook. In fact, it really puts me off, BIG time. The only way that Apple can counter this and get my money is if they update SOMETHING on the Powerbooks and I don't mean by dropping the prices. For example, a faster Superdrive, Keynote thrown in, even a token speed hike, a larger harddisk or, best of the lot, BETTER GRAPHICS CARD.

They're clearning out old stock. This is the least they can do.



Rich::

[Furrybeagle]

This is what has me confused. People are saying buy it if you need it.

I don't need it. Mostly, I want to get off this big heavy plastic computer and get onto a nice thinner aluminum computer that is lighter and has nice little things like light up keyboards and glowing apple logos etc. etc. etc. Also, I want to switch to Mac OSX. No need to talk about the reasons since we already know about that.

Mostly the only thing that is keeping me back is because I don't have a feel about how performance works on an Apple, unlike on the PC. I'm farely sure that desktop apps will run to my satisfaction on the PB (15" 1.5GHz 128MB VRAM 512MB RAM). But I have no idea how the other side of the spectrum will work: the occaisonal game.

In the PC world, a Radeon 9700 in a laptop is rather good (its Pixel Shader 2, its still relatively fast, it has 128MB VRAM, its not integrated, etc. etc.), and the new gen cards are no big deal (no new tech really involved). So to me, that seems like a great card.

And the PowerBook has this. But people tell me that when they play games, they aren't that fast. Others tell me the PB plays games rather good. Others give framerates. But I don't seem to get any specific information about how it really works. That is what is keeping me back from making a decision. I'm not asking for running Halo at the highest resolution with everything cranked up to high with anisotrophic filtering and antialiasing all the way up. I'd be fine with a moderate resolution (something above 800x600, or whatever the widescreen mac equivalent of that is), with no smoothing, with no anisotrophic filtering, and graphics middle or mostly up there.

Now, I have to play all the games that I like (which are on the Mac too or are going to be on the Mac, I already checked) at 800x600, with graphics setting usually moderate. All I need to know is how will a game, hopefully Halo, or whatever, will play on a PB. That's all I would need. Just info from people how it works.

That's it. That's all I need. I'd get if I knew how it performed, since I don't want to deal with rev A hardware anyways. So if anyone knows anything like, or where to find about stuff like that, please let me know. It would be really really appreciated. :)

[whatever]

I really don't understand all of the whining that goes on here.

Apple upgraded the iBook line in time for Christmas. Smart move

There is no need for Apple to rush out and upgrade the PowerBook line. And if they did most people who whine in this forum would bitch and moan about XYZ or will post something like "looks good, but I'm going to wait for the revision..."

PowerBooks are not consumer laptops. Missing Christmas means nothing!

The majority of the people who use PowerBook laptops are either:
a. Executives who want the cool computer (I'm not joking here)
b. The Apple user who has G4/G5 tower in the office/home and need to be able to continue to work while on the road.

Martin Sargent said it right the other night on The Screensavers when Kevin Rose was getting a hard on about AMD's latest chip:

Martin was equally unimpressed by Kevin’s other big news: AMD’s new Athlon 64 4000+ processor. “Will this allow me to read my email and book my flights more efficiently,” Martin asked. Kevin insisted that this was indeed relevant to computer consumers and to those following the computer industry.

I'm writing this on a 17" PowerBook G4. When the G4 PowerBooks come out will I be bummed out. No! I will look at it, but I won't buy one, for the same reasons I didn't run out and buy a G5 Tower. There was no reason to. As long as my apps work (which they all do) and my computer does not get in the way of me doing work (which my old PC laptop did), then why upgrade. I expect a minimum two years out of my computers. If my current hardware became outdated (unsupported) in that time then I would seriously consider a new vender. That's the nice thing about Apple, they allow their products to have a complete life cycle.

How many people here really plan to buy a new computer in the next 3 months? As an Apple Shareholder I would love to see an accurate show of hands.

[bwintx]

I really don't understand all of the whining that goes on here.

Apple upgraded the iBook line in time for Christmas. Smart move

...<snip>...

PowerBooks are not consumer laptops. Missing Christmas means nothing!

The majority of the people who use PowerBook laptops are either:
a. Executives who want the cool computer (I'm not joking here)
b. The Apple user who has G4/G5 tower in the office/home and need to be able to continue to work while on the road.

...<snip>...

How many people here really plan to buy a new computer in the next 3 months? As an Apple Shareholder I would love to see an accurate show of hands.

One of the most intelligent analyses I've ever read on this site. It was "Get a life" on steroids. Bravo.

[TWinbrook46636]

One of the most intelligent analyses I've ever read on this site. It was "Get a life" on steroids. Bravo.

A price drop would be nice though.

[nightcap965]

How many people here really plan to buy a new computer in the next 3 months? As an Apple Shareholder I would love to see an accurate show of hands.

Yo!

That would be me. The current Powerbook line is nice, but not quite enough. My minimum requirements are 1.8 GHz CPU, 128 MB video RAM, and a 100 GB hard drive. I would drop one wing and run in circles if it also had a WSXGA screen.

MWSF is what, ten weeks away? I'll wait.

-- Bill

[drsuse]

I really don't understand all of the whining that goes on here
How many people here really plan to buy a new computer in the next 3 months? As an Apple Shareholder I would love to see an accurate show of hands.

I will buy a new powerbook as soon as a new-processor version comes out, hopefully january obviously, unless there's nothing by may or so, in which case I'll just buy whatever's out.

[OSXconvert]

The whole G5 vs G4 debate is pretty much following on marketing lines. It seems that the new batch of G4 freescale processors (why not call them G4+'s?)will be faster and cooler than similar mhz G5's. 64-bitness doesn't matter for most people. The G5 label is seductive, but it is arbitrary; real-life performance and usability counts. I just want a fast, energy-efficient processor. The current G4 1.5 is pretty awesome. I think a 1.8-2.0 7448 G4 would be awesome and the dual-core would be blazing, especially with a much faster bus and an extra RAM slot. Maybe they could call it the G4SX so it would have some sex appeal next to the G5.

I don't think a G5 will make it into a powerbook until the end of 2005 until they can get power consumption down. The 65nm G6 or whatever it will be called is supposed to go into the Xboxes next christmas. Think about it: if the 2.5 90nm 970Fx needs huge liquid coolers, how would they get a 2-3.0ghz G5 into a tiny air-cooled xbox without some serious R&D? Something dramatic much be changing at IBM or they got overly optimistic about leakage problems and ability to shrink the die and are in trouble and trying to sort it out--that's what's taking so long. We are definitely pushing against the limits of Moore's Law. Probably slower multiple core processors are the best compromise for processor development in the years to come before a breakthrough in leakage design is made and the next rush in speed and shrinkage comes.

[earthtoandy]

i'm buying a powerbook. probably gonna wait til January. I want to get it as top of the line as possible because i am spenmding so much money and want it to last.

[earthtoandy]

i've said it many tiimes...i'll take a dual core over a G5 in a second! Hell even a faster G4 would be amazing. I dont want a hot ugly thick laptop that lasts for 30 minutes on a battery