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MacBytes
Oct 21, 2004, 03:23 PM
Category: Opinion/Interviews
Link: \"Little difference between using a Mac and a Windows machine\" says mac creator Jef Raskin (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20041021162321)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

munkle
Oct 21, 2004, 03:34 PM
Old news but seems to have popped up in a few places today, there is already a fair few threads on it.

He makes a couple of fair points but just comes across as bitter to me. Well you're bound to have a few rotten apples! ;)

brap
Oct 21, 2004, 03:40 PM
Fundamentally? Of course not. This is what people are accustomed to nowadays - any further deviance from the "norm" would be insurmountable. I often get "ooh, that looks too complicated for me!" when I use my Powerbook at work.

In the words of Flansburgh and Linnell; The world has forgotten. The world moved along.

Sure, he has a point, but Apple can't afford to upset the status quo anymore.

It may be blasphemy, but I'm sensing a twinge of nostalgia. Would you rather be using his especially user-friendly Apple II?

Sharewaredemon
Oct 21, 2004, 07:15 PM
It seems silly for him to say that the apps he wrote on an Apple II ran faster than apps now. I mean, that's like saying FCP HD runs slower on a maxed out g5 than kid pix did in os 6.

musicpyrite
Oct 21, 2004, 08:21 PM
The quest for CPU power has been largely defeated by bloated software in applications and operating systems. Some programs I wrote in Basic on an Apple II ran faster than when written in a modern language on a G4 Dual-processor Mac with hardware 1,000 times faster.

I do agree with him on that point.

I spend a good deal of time optimizing programs I write for my calculator, one of the reasons I got a Ti-83 Silver was because of the fast processor that I can use for debugging. I see look at some other people's programs, and am amazed.... poorly written and bloated. I can get a 1.5 kilobyte program down to about 1.1 kilobyte, and it runs so much faster and smoother.

iMeowbot
Oct 21, 2004, 09:33 PM
What is it about former Apple research people that causes them all to spend the rest of their lives trashing the company's products?

It seems that pretty much everyone involved with the Mac project except for Jef Raskin thinks that the final product has little to do with what he wanted to build apart from names of things.

The Canon Cat was what he pointed at as the way to do it right, but then he disowned that product and blamed Canon for all its flaws when nobody bought it.

Keynoteuser
Oct 22, 2004, 08:53 AM
He's so full of himself. Isn't this they guy who is working on an alternative interface that's so confusing only HE understands it?

slu
Oct 22, 2004, 09:39 AM
Two Words: Sour Grapes

The industry has passed you by, Jef. Accept it and enjoy your wealth.

dombi
Oct 22, 2004, 09:47 AM
I agree with slu. To me it just seems like he feels bad about him being left out, and that his name does not appear anywhere any more. Sad, but that is life.

Apple is doing a great job. They have excellent hardware, stable OS, and good software.

I was suprised to see JRs statement on the iMac G5. This guy seems to be living in a completely different world. The computer users needs are different than they were 10-15 years ago. People like customizing their desktop, we like having beautiful background images. We like Aqua (for the most part). Just because JR did not come up with all of that, it really does not mean it is all crap.

He needs to get a life, or maybe a Windows machine. That might cheer him up. :-)

iMeowbot
Oct 22, 2004, 10:32 AM
He's so full of himself. Isn't this they guy who is working on an alternative interface that's so confusing only HE understands it?
You mean the "humane interface," the one that makes vi navigation seem obvious and natural by comparison? That's the one.

tpatricks
Oct 22, 2004, 02:59 PM
At first, the news from Raskin seemed like an obvious article topic. I even put it on my "future articles" list. The more I read about the guy, what's he's done, what he's done since (or not), and how he expresses himself about both his contribution and that of others, I couldn't figure out an interesting angle to write about.

Why? His early contributions benefit all of us. What happened since?

Two words: sour grapes.

That's all I could dig out of the past and present to write about and it just wasn't enough. I like a little controversy as much as the next Mac user, but writing about Raskin just seemed more pitiful than interesting.

Raskin's a footnote and doesn't like it. That's sorta sad in a pitiable way, don't you think? I mean, look at Steve Jobs. Yeeesh. The guy got drummed out of his own company and went off to do it again. He didn't stop trying to set the bar higher and climb over it (to mix a few loose metaphors) but always pushed forward. The result is great movies from Pixar, great products (again) from Apple.

I'll be the first to admit that OS X isn't perfect. I still have a DNS logging problem with Urchin that I can't track down. But man, this "experience" on the Mac is soooooooo much better than Windows, so much better than OS 9.x (got tired of hitting the Command-S keys every 17 seconds), so much more productive and more fun than ever. Ever. And I had a 128k Mac.

Rather than argue over how intuitive the interface is, I need to get things done.

Posts above covered a great point-- it's difficult for anyone, Apple included, to JUMP ahead to a totally different way of doing things, regardless of how much better it might be. Hey, Windows users are challenged to move to Mac, and that's not a quantum leap.

One thing missing from most of what I've read of Raskin is, "how to make it better." Short term, long term, whatever. Nothing. Silence of the numb.

Besides, there's probably tens of millions of Mac users who've never heard of Raskin and his contribution and won't/don't care. They have things to do.

tpatricks
--
mac360.com

tpatricks
Oct 22, 2004, 02:59 PM
At first, the news from Raskin seemed like an obvious article topic. I even put it on my "future articles" list. The more I read about the guy, what's he's done, what he's done since (or not), and how he expresses himself about both his contribution and that of others, I couldn't figure out an interesting angle to write about.

Why? His early contributions benefit all of us. What happened since?

Two words: sour grapes.

That's all I could dig out of the past and present to write about and it just wasn't enough. I like a little controversy as much as the next Mac user, but writing about Raskin just seemed more pitiful than interesting.

Raskin's a footnote and doesn't like it. That's sorta sad in a pitiable way, don't you think? I mean, look at Steve Jobs. Yeeesh. The guy got drummed out of his own company and went off to do it again. He didn't stop trying to set the bar higher and climb over it (to mix a few loose metaphors) but always pushed forward. The result is great movies from Pixar, great products (again) from Apple.

I'll be the first to admit that OS X isn't perfect. I still have a DNS logging problem with Urchin that I can't track down. But man, this "experience" on the Mac is soooooooo much better than Windows, so much better than OS 9.x (got tired of hitting the Command-S keys every 17 seconds), so much more productive and more fun than ever. Ever. And I had a 128k Mac.

Rather than argue over how intuitive the interface is, I need to get things done.

Posts above covered a great point-- it's difficult for anyone, Apple included, to JUMP ahead to a totally different way of doing things, regardless of how much better it might be. Hey, Windows users are challenged to move to Mac, and that's not a quantum leap.

One thing missing from most of what I've read of Raskin is, "how to make it better." Short term, long term, whatever. Nothing. Silence of the numb.

Besides, there's probably tens of millions of Mac users who've never heard of Raskin and his contribution and won't/don't care. They have things to do.

tpatricks
--
mac360

sjk
Oct 22, 2004, 03:11 PM
You mean the "humane interface," the one that makes vi navigation seem obvious and natural by comparison?:D

slu
Oct 22, 2004, 03:22 PM
Two words: sour grapes.


Hey, I said that first! ;)



One thing missing from most of what I've read of Raskin is, "how to make it better." Short term, long term, whatever. Nothing. Silence of the numb.

Besides, there's probably tens of millions of Mac users who've never heard of Raskin and his contribution and won't/don't care. They have things to do.

tpatricks
--
mac360

This is a great point. I have no time for people that complain, but offer nothing in the way of solutions or ideas themselves.

And I am a recent Mac switcher (my first Mac is the iMac G5 that I have had for a month or so), and I never heard of this guy before I read this. But I had heard of Jobs, Ives, Scully, Wozniak, etc....

JDar
Oct 22, 2004, 09:02 PM
"Little Things Mean a Lot" Kitty Kalen song lyrics from years ago.
Viva la difference!

solvs
Oct 23, 2004, 02:02 PM
You made a good point that I didn't really think about Tera. Steve gets kicked out of a company he started, goes off to make his own company, and comes back better than ever. Jeff gets pushed out of the way on the project he was working on, causing it to go a different direction. Now all he can do is complain. Respect to him for his original ideas, but seeing what he's done lately, I'm kinda glad the Mac turned out to be different than what he wanted it to become originally.

Just like with politics, you either sit around and complain about how bad everything is... or you try to make things better. If would be easier to respect him again if he was doing the latter and actually working to help improve OS X.

Or even :shudder: Windows. It needs it. :p

iMeowbot
Oct 23, 2004, 02:47 PM
Respect to him for his original ideas, but seeing what he's done lately, I'm kinda glad the Mac turned out to be different than what he wanted it to become originally.
...and what he's done lately is pretty much exactly what he wanted the Mac to do way back then, leaping and all.

The marking/"leaping" idea is directly lifted from emacs, thoroughly ancient; and poeple who call emacs an operating system aren't being entirely facetious.

The other Big Idea is to get rid of visible filesystems and get away from the idea of applications. That's a really dubious idea to begin with, businesses and trechnical users live and die by their indexed documents. Just imagine dealing with lawyers or regulators using a system without distinguishable files!

The Palm interface does manage to work out a nice compromise. I wouldn't mind seeing an adaptation of that in larger systems.