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Megaquad
Aug 14, 2002, 03:20 AM
If you go to http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?nodeId=01M98653 you'll see there aren't any new G4 processors! Is there a possibility that these new PowerMac's have IBM G4 inside?

Shrek
Aug 14, 2002, 04:07 AM
Nah, I just think they haven't updated that page yet. Figures. Cuz Motorola is sooooo slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow at things.

alex_ant
Aug 14, 2002, 04:35 AM
That page looks accurate. The reason it hasn't been updated recently is that there are no new G4s. The G4 is a dead end; it is not being aggressively pushed faster. Apple will eventually need to switch to something other than the G4, preferably sooner rather than later.

Megaquad
Aug 14, 2002, 05:03 AM
Poor Apple.. They are so ****ed up by Motorola (so are we).

Mr Jobs
Aug 14, 2002, 06:31 AM
well with a heatsink that big maybe the overclocked 1Ghz

topicolo
Aug 14, 2002, 08:05 AM
Yeah, they are. I posted that early yesterday but everybody brushed it off because no one wanted to believe it. The 1.25Ghz duals are just overclocked Xserves basically. Notice that for the xServes, the fsb is running at 133. Thus, the CPU is running at a 1000/133 = 7.5 multiplier. Similarly, the new G4s top out at a 166Mhz fsb, but the CPU is running also at a 7.5 multiplier (166*7.5 = 1245Mhz).

So this is what it has come down to. moto has decided that it doesn't give a damn about Apple so they're just going to let Apple rot with their current G4. I think Apple should let moto rot! Ditch them for anyone else! IBM, Intel, AMD--I don't care, just don't give moto any business and let them collapse of their own poor management

ftaok
Aug 14, 2002, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by topicolo
Yeah, they are. I posted that early yesterday but everybody brushed it off because no one wanted to believe it. The 1.25Ghz duals are just overclocked Xserves basically. Notice that for the xServes, the fsb is running at 133. Thus, the CPU is running at a 1000/133 = 7.5 multiplier. Similarly, the new G4s top out at a 166Mhz fsb, but the CPU is running also at a 7.5 multiplier (166*7.5 = 1245Mhz).

So this is what it has come down to. moto has decided that it doesn't give a damn about Apple so they're just going to let Apple rot with their current G4. I think Apple should let moto rot! Ditch them for anyone else! IBM, Intel, AMD--I don't care, just don't give moto any business and let them collapse of their own poor management I'm sure that Apple had discussions with Motorola months in advanced to see where Mot's PPC chips would be. If Motorola had indicated that the G4s would top out at 1 to 1.3 ghz and that they weren't developing it any further, then it's Apple's responsibility to adjust their game plan. Based on Motorola's comments that the G4 "still has legs", I'd suspect that they are still working on a 7470 G4 that will show up in Macs eventually.

I posted my thoughts about Apple/IBM/Motorola about a year ago. I thought that Apple would keep the G4 on the consumer Macs and an IBM chip in the pro machines. That still has a chance of panning out.

BTW, Apple would be unwise to drop MOT in such a harsh fashion. MOT could cripple Apple right now by refusing to sell them G4s. At least until IBM comes out with their next chip.

Mr. Anderson
Aug 14, 2002, 08:36 AM
holy crap! this might mean the end of the line on the G4! wow, now with the IBM announcement in October, it definitely makes sense that Apple will be going with the Power4. Anyone know when IBM is going to be able to deliver the new processors, or will we have to wait a couple of months to find out.

Also, could it be possible to overclock the 1GHz G4 to something a little faster? Damn, I wouldn't want one knowing that.

D

topicolo
Aug 14, 2002, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by ftaok
Based on Motorola's comments that the G4 "still has legs", I'd suspect that they are still working on a 7470 G4 that will show up in Macs eventually.
That is just Moto's marketing *************. Motorola has no intention of continuing their G4s since it's pretty obvious that they didn't design the PPC 85xx for desktop usage and it's still stuck at ~ 1Ghz.


BTW, Apple would be unwise to drop MOT in such a harsh fashion. MOT could cripple Apple right now by refusing to sell them G4s. At least until IBM comes out with their next chip.

Apple would be most unwise to STAY with moto because moto is a dying company that doesn't know how to treat its clients. Moto has been screwing both Palm and Apple for the last 3-4 years, do you think they'll suddenly be nice to them? I think not. Besides, if anything, Apple has a manufacturing contract with Moto until a certain period so Moto won't be able to stop manufacturing the G4. Besides, why would they want to kill another revenue stream when they're already bleeding money?

ftaok
Aug 14, 2002, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by topicolo

That is just Moto's marketing *************. Motorola has no intention of continuing their G4s since it's pretty obvious that they didn't design the PPC 85xx for desktop usage and it's still stuck at ~ 1Ghz.


BTW, Apple would be unwise to drop MOT in such a harsh fashion. MOT could cripple Apple right now by refusing to sell them G4s. At least until IBM comes out with their next chip.

Apple would be most unwise to STAY with moto because moto is a dying company that doesn't know how to treat its clients. Moto has been screwing both Palm and Apple for the last 3-4 years, do you think they'll suddenly be nice to them? I think not. Besides, if anything, Apple has a manufacturing contract with Moto until a certain period so Moto won't be able to stop manufacturing the G4. Besides, why would they want to kill another revenue stream when they're already bleeding money? Just because Apple uses the G4 doesn't mean they're the only customer. Motorola will continue to sell G4s to people like Cisco. As for G5 development, perhaps Motorola decided to stop G5 development for Apple because Apple never intended to use the G5. Ever think of that?

Motorola is continuing to make G4s and G5s for people other than Apple.

As for Motorola screwing Palm, perhaps Palm should have had the foresight to develop an OS to have more features. No one held a gun to their head to use the DragonBall. They could have switched to the StrongARM if they wanted. The problem was that all the apps would have to be re-written (or whatever).

Finally, I never said that Motorola would stop supplying Apple with G4s. You were the one that said that they should not give MOT any business (I took it to mean right now, but as I re-read, I may have misunderstood your statement). I was just saying that MOT could cripple Apple more than Apple could hurt MOT.

Apple isn't a big customer for Motorola anymore. Back when they had a 10% share, yeah. But now, 4% of the market is nothing. And don't get me started about clients and partners. Apple is the one that killed Motorola's clones and Jobs is the one that decimated MOT stock two years ago. Talk about partnerships. Sheesh.

topicolo
Aug 14, 2002, 11:24 AM
Originally posted by ftaok
Just because Apple uses the G4 doesn't mean they're the only customer. Motorola will continue to sell G4s to people like Cisco. As for G5 development, perhaps Motorola decided to stop G5 development for Apple because Apple never intended to use the G5. Ever think of that?

Motorola is continuing to make G4s and G5s for people other than Apple.

As for Motorola screwing Palm, perhaps Palm should have had the foresight to develop an OS to have more features. No one held a gun to their head to use the DragonBall. They could have switched to the StrongARM if they wanted. The problem was that all the apps would have to be re-written (or whatever).

Finally, I never said that Motorola would stop supplying Apple with G4s. You were the one that said that they should not give MOT any business (I took it to mean right now, but as I re-read, I may have misunderstood your statement). I was just saying that MOT could cripple Apple more than Apple could hurt MOT.

Apple isn't a big customer for Motorola anymore. Back when they had a 10% share, yeah. But now, 4% of the market is nothing. And don't get me started about clients and partners. Apple is the one that killed Motorola's clones and Jobs is the one that decimated MOT stock two years ago. Talk about partnerships. Sheesh.

I never said that the G4s and G5s were only used by Apple, I just said "...they didn't design the PPC 85xx for DESKTOP usage" THe PPC85xx is out already, and selling for $279 or thereabouts per chip but it's not even remotely designed for macs. This shows that Moto was more interested about getting embedded business than Apple's business since they wouldn't have gone ahead instead if they knew they wouldn't have any clients. How could Apple be interested in a G5 after Moto screwed them at 500Mhz for a year, and more recently, 1Ghz for 7months?

Palm wouldn't have to switch to a strongarm if motorola actually did its job and ADVANCED their processors more than once very 3 years like any real chip company. The best chip motorola was ever able to roll out was a 66Mhz dragonball VZ that barely ran 20% faster than the 33Mhz version. All of these amazing advances happend after ONLY 6 years!?!

Motorola's downfall started waaaay before Jobs yanked the cloning plug. Moto was brought down by their constant inability to compete in its other markets (ie cell phones, set-top boxes, and of course, its semi-conductor business). Inability to compete. Sounds like a pretty familiar pattern to me.

No wonder they lost enough money last QUARTER to buy HALF of Apple.

bousozoku
Aug 14, 2002, 11:46 AM
Didn't Palm start by using the Dragonball processor even as Newton was using StrongARM at 160 MHz? This didn't seem too good to me but it was apparently a financial consideration. However, considering what Palm charged, it looked as though they were trying to re-coup all of their costs right away.

Motorola was so unhappy when Apple chose an IBM design, the Power series, over their own 88000 processors, and they've never let Apple forget it.

Who used the 88000? Data General in its Aviion workstations. Where is Data General today?

Actually, the 88000 was used as the core for the PowerPC 601. The floating-point math was better than the integer math, even with multiple integer units. We could have used Mac OS X then.

Unfortunately, Motorola seems to be destroying itself again and taking down anyone else close to it. IBM MicroElectronics don't seem to be doing well and have no desire to produce desktop processors. Remember the IBM PC 850 line? Not likely that anyone else does either. :(

Apple will work it out though. :)

Yeah, I'm tired of being patient too.

ftaok
Aug 14, 2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by topicolo


I never said that the G4s and G5s were only used by Apple, I just said "...they didn't design the PPC 85xx for DESKTOP usage" THe PPC85xx is out already, and selling for $279 or thereabouts per chip but it's not even remotely designed for macs. This shows that Moto was more interested about getting embedded business than Apple's business since they wouldn't have gone ahead instead if they knew they wouldn't have any clients. How could Apple be interested in a G5 after Moto screwed them at 500Mhz for a year, and more recently, 1Ghz for 7months?I didnt' say that you said that. You said that Motorola "has no intention" to continue with the G4. I contested that by saying that there are other customers that use G4s. That's all.

Palm wouldn't have to switch to a strongarm if motorola actually did its job and ADVANCED their processors more than once very 3 years like any real chip company. The best chip motorola was ever able to roll out was a 66Mhz dragonball VZ that barely ran 20% faster than the 33Mhz version. All of these amazing advances happend after ONLY 6 years!?!But the fact is that they didn't switch. If the Motorola chips were so bad, then they should have switched. If Palm stayed with the DragonBall even though it was so obviously bad, then that's their fault. How can you fault Motorola for selling bad stuff for full price? That's a good business model if you can sustain it.

Motorola's downfall started waaaay before Jobs yanked the cloning plug. Moto was brought down by their constant inability to compete in its other markets (ie cell phones, set-top boxes, and of course, its semi-conductor business). Inability to compete. Sounds like a pretty familiar pattern to me.

No wonder they lost enough money last QUARTER to buy HALF of Apple. [/B]Well, Motorola is rebounding and their cell-phone division is picking up steam (up to 18% for the last report). They're getting their house in order. They have, in the past, demonstrated that they can inovate, but not follow through to the next level. Maybe with more and more outside guys (like Mike Z), they can change that. Or maybe not.

The bottom line is that you can't blame Motorola for a problem that Apple can fix themselves.