Hobbits Actually Did Exsist....

[Mr. Anderson]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/10/27/dwarf.cavewoman.ap/index.html

wow, now that's truly amazing - and this is really new news - I did a google search hoping to find out more and it came up blank on Homo Floresiensis

And the fact that the fossils date from only recent history (geologically and evolutionarily speaking).

D

[Hoef]

Heard it NPR .... It is amazing that there is/was an island where little people hunted little elephants

[Jovian9]

Very interesting.

[jsw]

It wasn't until I realized that my 41.5" 4 year old daughter would have towered over these people that I began to really grasp just how small they were....

[Mr. Anderson]

Its truly amazing, actually. And I'm really looking forward to seeing a reconstructed image from the fossils and see how they compare to a modern human.

And the whole thing with the mini elephants is almost right out of science fiction :D

D

[Kyle?]

You know, maybe I'm just being super critical here, but I'd really like to know how in the world they can claim this is a hominid from 18,000 years ago. I can think of many things which this might be in the modern world, eg. human child, young dwarf, one of the above suffering from some disease that malforms the skeletal structure, possibly just another primate with a similar bone structure. Also, how complete is the specimen found? It's happened before that scientists have made unsupportable claims. I'd like to see the original work on this, and not just the fluff fed to "regular" people, with a sensational little storyline about hobbits and such every now and again.

[frozenstar]

You know, maybe I'm just being super critical here, but I'd really like to know how in the world they can claim this is a hominid from 18,000 years ago. I can think of many things which this might be in the modern world, eg. human child, young dwarf, one of the above suffering from some disease that malforms the skeletal structure, possibly just another primate with a similar bone structure. Also, how complete is the specimen found? It's happened before that scientists have made unsupportable claims. I'd like to see the original work on this, and not just the fluff fed to "regular" people, with a sensational little storyline about hobbits and such every now and again.

Nature is running a special on the discovery. More detailed information is available here.

http://www.nature.com/news/specials/flores/index.html

[AmigoMac]

really interesting, very nice from a scientific point of view, but we should know about it in the books, but a lot of documentation should have been burned (no, not on CD), we know about pics in caves where they show how they hunted but nothing about small people? what if it was a normal but pretty small teenager? I like the Ötzi better, no, not DJ Ötzi...

[ThomasJefferson]

Unfortunately, I work with a few people who deny that any humans existed - earlier than about 5,000 years ago. :rolleyes: And they are determined that this nonsense should be taken out of the textbooks their children read in school.

Sad. Can you guess who they are voting for?

[jayscheuerle]

You know, maybe I'm just being super critical here, but I'd really like to know how in the world they can claim this is a hominid from 18,000 years ago. I can think of many things which this might be in the modern world, eg. human child, young dwarf, one of the above suffering from some disease that malforms the skeletal structure, possibly just another primate with a similar bone structure. Also, how complete is the specimen found? It's happened before that scientists have made unsupportable claims. I'd like to see the original work on this, and not just the fluff fed to "regular" people, with a sensational little storyline about hobbits and such every now and again.

Not super critical, just super underinformed! :D

They found 7 of these skeletons, all of the same basic stature. Their brains were around a quarter of the size of ours, like a grapefruit. The differences are not subtle, so different that some are even questioning whether they should be grouped with humans!

I agree that science stories like this give no real meat and do themselves a disservice when tossing in pop references like "hobbit". The best of these discoveries usually end up in National Geographic or Discover Magazine if you like a little more depth, but great pictures/illustrations and accessibility to the lay person. - j

[Doctor Q]

A very interesting story. I think the discoveries were made in 2003 so they had time to study this before we all got the sound-bite version in the news.

One report said there is no proof that they don't still live somewhere on the island, although the evidence that they were wiped out by volcanic ash seemed convincing.

[jtgotsjets]

Not super critical, just super underinformed! :D

They found 7 of these skeletons, all of the same basic stature. Their brains were around a quarter of the size of ours, like a grapefruit. The differences are not subtle, so different that some are even questioning whether they should be grouped with humans!

I agree that science stories like this give no real meat and do themselves a disservice when tossing in pop references like "hobbit". The best of these discoveries usually end up in National Geographic or Discover Magazine if you like a little more depth, but great pictures/illustrations and accessibility to the lay person. - j

They used the word hobbit because the scientists named the most complete skeleton (a 30ish year old female) "Hobbit."

[wdlove]

A very interesting story. I think the discoveries were made in 2003 so they had time to study this before we all got the sound-bite version in the news.

One report said there is no proof that they don't still live somewhere on the island, although the evidence that they were wiped out by volcanic ash seemed convincing.

The real interesting story would be if they did actually find them still alive. Must have been a remote island that it took them this long to make this find.

[~Shard~]

Fascinating, thanks for this! This is truly hot of the presses, as well! I'll definitely be following this story as it develops, this type of thing always intrigues me. Hopefully we'll see an in-depth article on it in a future edition of National Geographic - I always enjoy reading those every month.

[TEG]

Cool.

Maybe JRR Tolken was more knowledgable than some thought.

TEG

[stoid]

Mini elephants though... hmmm... Tolkien talked of giant elephants he called oliphants. Volcano... Mount Doom? :D :p

[yellow]

Some other hobbits obviously went "into the west" with the elves..

[tristan]

Q: If humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes on the planet?
A: They gave some of the apes a choice.

Anyway, I hope this starts some new debate about evolution. Not that stupid "creationism vs evolution" debate, but some real investigation into why some species stuck around and some didn't.

It's just my opinion, but I think the theory of evolution has more holes in it than my laundry day underwear. On the other hand, it's the best theory we've got right now. Hopefully this new discovery will help the research... umm... evolve.

[yellow]

The latest National Geographic has a very interesting article about Darwinism.

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411/feature1/index.html

[pooky]

Long, but very interesting Wired article as to the creation vs. evolution debate.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/evolution.html

[Mr. Anderson]

Anyway, I hope this starts some new debate about evolution. Not that stupid "creationism vs evolution" debate, but some real investigation into why some species stuck around and some didn't.

It's just my opinion, but I think the theory of evolution has more holes in it than my laundry day underwear. On the other hand, it's the best theory we've got right now. Hopefully this new discovery will help the research... umm... evolve.

The planet is constantly changing - so its more adaptation driving evolution. If you look back at the geologic record over the past 800,000 years there has been a continual cycle of ice ages and warm ages. If a species gets comfortable with some nice weather and all of a sudden (geologically speaking, not "Day After Tomorrow") you have a glacier in your valley, you have to get out or die. Same thing with adapting to colder climates, that wooly coat doesn't help you when its well above freezing :D

D

[~Shard~]

The latest National Geographic has a very interesting article about Darwinism.

http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0411/feature1/index.html

Yes, I know, I'm looking forward to reading it, it's sitting on my desk - I still have last month's edition to finish first though! And then before I know it, next month's edition willl arrive in the mail... ;) So much excellent reading and so little time!

[tristan]

The planet is constantly changing - so its more adaptation driving evolution.
D

My problem with evolution is the numbers don't add up. In less than 10^10 generations, random changes in the genetic code of single celled organisms led to incredibly complex systems like eyesight, hearing, locomotion, balance, breathing, etc - not to mention human thought.

That's like saying that if I take DOS 3.1, copy it with some random changes, I'll eventually end up with Mac OS X. Well, yes, I will. But if I could make ten copies of DOS every second with random changes, and then I pick the one that's closest to the code of Mac OS X, discard the rest, then make ten copies of that one (ten children), etc, etc, how long would it take to get Mac OS X? I haven't done the math, but I bet if you did, you'd find that the Sun would burn out long before you got to System 7.

[~Shard~]

That's like saying that if I take DOS 3.1, copy it with some random changes, I'll eventually end up with Mac OS X. Well, yes, I will. But if I could make ten copies of DOS every second with random changes, and then I pick the one that's closest to the code of Mac OS X, discard the rest, then make ten copies of that one (ten children), etc, etc, how long would it take to get Mac OS X? I haven't done the math, but I bet if you did, you'd find that the Sun would burn out long before you got to System 7.

Worst... analogy... ever... :cool:

[x86isslow]

Q: If humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes on the planet?
A: They gave some of the apes a choice.



we DID NOT EVOLVE FROM APES.

what evolutionary theory says is that apes, humans, and other humanoids (erectus, florensis, africanus) all descended from the same ancestor.

[tristan]

we DID NOT EVOLVE FROM APES.


Well, then how do you explain THE PLANET OF THE APES? :-)

Actually, the above was a popular joke about evolution.

[~Shard~]

Well, then how do you explain THE PLANET OF THE APES? :-)

Wait a minute... Statue of Liberty... that was OUR planet! :eek:

[Doctor Q]

Wait a minute... Statue of Liberty... that was OUR planet! :eek:Did you have to say that, ~Shard~? Now you've spoiled the surprise! :(

This is just as bad as when somebody told me Titanic sank before I saw the movie! :(

;)

[jsw]

Wait a minute... Statue of Liberty... that was OUR planet! :eek:You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you! God damn you all to hell....

** falls on knees, sobbing ***

[yellow]

I can hear Homer saying it now.. in my head.. why is Homer always talking in my head?

[Abstract]

Some other hobbits obviously went "into the west" with the elves..

Yeah, I can't wait for them to find the first Elf. ;)

[~Shard~]

Did you have to say that, ~Shard~? Now you've spoiled the surprise! :(

This is just as bad as when somebody told me Titanic sank before I saw the movie! :(

;)

Sorry Doctor Q, you have my deepest, sincerest apologies. I'll be sure not to spoil the end of Star Wars Episode III for you. (You'll never guess how it ends!)

[~Shard~]

You maniacs! You blew it up! Damn you! God damn you all to hell....

** falls on knees, sobbing ***

Thanks for finishing that off jsw, great minds think alike. :cool:

[Mr. Anderson]

Yeah, I can't wait for them to find the first Elf. ;)

that's only if the elf wants to be found :D

I started reading some of the NatGeo about evolution - good stuff, but its going to take more than one sitting...

D

[jsw]

Thanks for finishing that off jsw, great minds think alike. :cool:And apparently so do we.... ;)

[~Shard~]

that's only if the elf wants to be found :D

I started reading some of the NatGeo about evolution - good stuff, but its going to take more than one sitting...

D

It is definitely in-depth, but worth the read I'm certain! Looking forward to finally getting to it this weekend...

[~Shard~]

And apparently so do we.... ;)

HAHAHA I don't get it... :confused: :cool:

[yellow]

I'll be sure not to spoil the end of Star Wars Episode III for you. (You'll never guess how it ends!)

W gets re-elected?

[yellow]

I started reading some of the NatGeo about evolution - good stuff, but its going to take more than one sitting...


Muahahahaha!! Same here.. the first 1/3 of the article was quite good. I expect the 2nd 1/3 to be just as good tomorrow morning.

[Mr. Anderson]

Anyone ever read Larry Niven's Ring World? Aside from the Pack Protector weirdness, the diversity of the races of humans was pretty damn cool - especially since given no other real life forms, humans ended up diversifying into every niche in nature - giants, pigmy's, scavengers, hunters, etc....

D

[yellow]

I think this is where I learned the word "integral" from..

Ah, yes: Integral Trees (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0345460367/qid=1099108443/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-0094494-0791062?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

I guess I was 12.

[~Shard~]

Anyone ever read Larry Niven's Ring World? Aside from the Pack Protector weirdness, the diversity of the races of humans was pretty damn cool - especially since given no other real life forms, humans ended up diversifying into every niche in nature - giants, pigmy's, scavengers, hunters, etc....

D

I never have, but it sounds intriguing. Thanks fore the head's up on this, I think I'll try and find myself a copy. :)

[~Shard~]

W gets re-elected?

You mean Darth Wader? :cool:

[Mr. Anderson]

There are three books in the series, Integral Trees is in the same universe, but not the same story line (I think).

The Sci-Fi channel is making a 4 hour mini series of it - which should be great. Can't wait to see how well they work in the Kzin and Speaker-to-animals :D The Ring World books are quite good, easy read, but I didn't like the Pack Protector stuff....but it didn't bother me that much to enjoy them :D

D

[yellow]

You mean Darth Wader?

Cue Imperial March (http://www.fallenjedi.com/sounds/impmarch2.wav) theme.. ACTION!

[Doctor Q]

Anyone ever read Larry Niven's Ring World?Yes, and I've even heard him speak about it at the UCLA Book Festival. That book was full of wonderful ideas - absolutely huge mountains, new methods of transportation, and of course rings to give us day and night. I remember the science more than the people.