"In case of Bush victory, break glass"

[Thomas Veil]

Pessimist that I am, I had this thought:

Assume the worst. It's Wednesday morning, and George Bush has been re-elected president of the United States.

If such an unhappy situation comes to pass, are you willing to sit quietly and be enormously frustrated for another four years? Or do you think some action might need to be taken?

Do you think we would need to organize and form a continuous series of protests, both in our own major cities and in Washington, D.C.? Do you think we will need to start a serious writing/calling/e-mailing campaign for Bush's impeachment?

(Please don't ask "On what basis?" If you don't already know, you might want to check this (http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041108&s=facts) out. Any number of things point to this administration's corruption and gross incompetence.)

I don't know about you, but I don't think I could just sit and take it for another four years. I'd either have to get politically involved in some kind of movement like this, or I'd have to move out of the country.

Probably the bulk of you are too young to remember Nixon's forced resignation, but it came more than anything else because the dissenters and protesters made such a huge amount of noise that it became impossible for him to get anything done. People wrote and called their congressmen demanding an impeachment.

And I think that's what we would need to do here: make it impossible for the Congress to function as long as Bush is president.

A side-issue here is the line of succession. Obviously, we'd have to include Cheney in any impeachment procedure. We sure don't want to see him sitting in the catbird seat. And we'd probably want to include some of Bush's war architects (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Ashcroft) in the festivities as well.

That still doesn't leave us in a terrific place: Speaker Dennis Hastert would assume the president's role. I think, however, that any such protest/impeachment effort -- especially if it was similar in scope to the one Nixon faced -- would throw a big enough scare into the neo-cons that it would make them behave themselves. At least for the remainder of the term.

What do you think? Worth the effort? Or would we just whine and take it for another four years?

Right now, this is just a philosophical exercise. In two days, it might be something we have to take seriously.

[skunk]

What do you think? Worth the effort? Or would we just whine and take it for another four years?
If you could do it to Nixon, you can do it to Bush.

[pseudobrit]

If Bush wins fairly, I think the American people deserve whatever is wrought upon them. It's the rest of the world I feel sorry for.

[IJ Reilly]

If you could do it to Nixon, you can do it to Bush.

Much easier said than done. Much easier -- especially in the current governing environment. The Democrats in Congress can't even bring a bill to the floor, let alone organize Congressional investigations of the kind that brought down Tricky Dick. The only hope would be if the Democrats retook the Senate.

[Thomas Veil]

Much easier said than done. Much easier -- especially in the current governing environment. The Democrats in Congress can't even bring a bill to the floor, let alone organize Congressional investigations of the kind that brought down Tricky Dick.
Well, that's why I said the pressure would have to be brought by the people. We'd have to flood Congressional offices with letters and calls of outrage. We'd have to take to the streets so that it would be seen on the news -- *ahem!* the "liberal" media -- constantly.

I worry more that the public, even the half of us that are royally p***ed at Bush, doesn't have the will for such a prolonged endeavor.

[IJ Reilly]

The focus necessarily would have to be on the 2006 elections. Whichever party wins the White House in 2004 is going to have hell to pay in two years.

[LeeTom]

I think it may get ugly. I've heard people talking about trashing republican offices, posting flyers around the city with names and addresses of republican donors... I think that the "left" plays pretty fair most of the time, but that time may be coming to an end.

I don't know exactly what I'm going to do, but let's put it this way:
I'm willing to make some sacrifices in my life to help this country.

Lee Tom

[Chip NoVaMac]

As nice as it sounds, it won't happen. After 30+ years the American people have changed for the worse IMO. Some it their fault, other due to factors that they could not control.

Look at 2000 and the election. Where was the outrage? Look at 2001 and the USPA, where was the outrage? Hell, the Congress admitted that they never even read the laws they pass!

Who can blame the American people? Their jobs are being sent overseas. Their employers are going offshore to escape taxes. In major cities it is almost impossible for a single person to live on their own any more. People over 40 are no longer counted as unemployed because they have been out of work for so long. That basic healthcare is out of reach for those most in need. Add to that many will not take the time to look into the issues unless they can get it in a 15 second sound bite on the evening news.

[Durandal7]

If there is going to be any legislative action (impeachment, investigation, etc.) against Bush, the Democrats will first have to retake the House and Senate. Remember that the opposition party controlled the legislature during Watergate, Iran-Contra and the Clinton Impeachment. It will be next to impossible to do this to Bush unless the Democrats take the legislative branch.

[Thomas Veil]

A good point. I was hoping that public pressure would "help" the GOP-led Congress come to that conclusion on their own, but I think it would probably take more.

The other major factor in the Nixon affair was that the press was coming out with something every day that made Nixon look like a liar. I recognize, however, that the mainstream media seem to have been castrated in that regard.

Absent a new Woodward/Bernstein -- someone with the balls and determination to go after Bush -- public pressure alone might not be enough.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the press could get involved, though. You could try to dig up more on why Bush was determined to invade Iraq from the first week of his administration...how much his connection to the Saudis has influenced his decision-making...why he said he'd veto a defense bill that wouldn't give a no-bid contract to Halliburton...why he ignored the original OBL memo...why he altered the intelligence report he sent to Congress.... Hell, there's a whole host of shady things, and they add up to 1000+ needlessly dead American soldiers.

Jesus Christ, if Clinton could get impeached for a blow job, we should be able to nail Bush on something.

[howard]

if bush is elected again i'm gonna get the hell outa here as soon as i can.

this country is not doing well at all...

[Chip NoVaMac]

A good point. I was hoping that public pressure would "help" the GOP-led Congress come to that conclusion on their own, but I think it would probably take more.

The other major factor in the Nixon affair was that the press was coming out with something every day that made Nixon look like a liar. I recognize, however, that the mainstream media seem to have been castrated in that regard.

Absent a new Woodward/Bernstein -- someone with the balls and determination to go after Bush -- public pressure alone might not be enough.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that the press could get involved, though. You could try to dig up more on why Bush was determined to invade Iraq from the first week of his administration...how much his connection to the Saudis has influenced his decision-making...why he said he'd veto a defense bill that wouldn't give a no-bid contract to Halliburton...why he ignored the original OBL memo...why he altered the intelligence report he sent to Congress.... Hell, there's a whole host of shady things, and they add up to 1000+ needlessly dead American soldiers.

Jesus Christ, if Clinton could get impeached for a blow job, we should be able to nail Bush on something.

More reasons that we should have term limits for the Congress and Senate.

[skunk]

Hell, there's a whole host of shady things, and they add up to 1000+ needlessly dead American soldiers.
Frankly, the death of 1,000 Americans pales into complete insignificance next to the 100,000 they went to Iraq to kill in the name of Christian Democracy. Perspective is all. Bush & Co should be tried for War Crimes before an international court. Belgium could have done it, but chickened out by changing their laws to disempower themselves.

Remember this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2886931.stm
Belgium rethinks war crimes law

Belgium's governing parties are scrambling to amend a controversial law which some fear could be used in a war crimes lawsuit against US President George W Bush.

The law allows Belgian courts to pass judgment on charges of war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, regardless of where the alleged acts took place or the nationality of the accused.

Critics have warned that a case against President Bush could be filed under the law, known as universal competence, and Belgium's role as host to international institutions could be threatened.

"I expect there to be, any day, a suit against President Bush in Belgium," said Herman De Croo, president of the lower house of parliament.

Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt hosted intense negotiations among political leaders from his coalition to discuss the threat, parliamentary sources said.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell warned last week that Belgium's status as an international hub may be jeopardised by the legislation, which applies to officials once they leave office. "It's a serious problem," said Mr Powell, after he was named last week in a lawsuit for alleged crimes during the 1991 Gulf War, along with former President George Bush Snr and current Vice President Dick Cheney. The lawsuit was filed by seven Iraqi families over the bombing of a civilian shelter in Baghdad that killed 403 people.

Mr Powell served as the head of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff and Cheney as defence secretary during the 1991 Gulf War. Some 30 current or former political leaders are facing action under the law, including Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Cuban President Fidel Castro.

Relations are already tense between the United States and Belgium, which has been a fierce critic of the war on Iraq and helped spark an unprecedented crisis at Nato last month. Brussels regional leader Francois-Xavier de Donnea warned that action taken under the universal competence law risked calling into question the role of city as the seat of international institutions.

Compromise proposal

Discussion of the law comes only a week before Belgium's parliament is due to be dissolved before legislative elections scheduled for 18 May. According to parliamentary sources, the parties in the ruling coalition are divided over the extent of amendments to the law. Mr Verhofstadt's Liberals, backed by Flemish-speaking Socialists, have proposed a "diplomatic filter". This would allow the government to send any cases to the country where the alleged crimes took place, providing it is democratic. Francophone socialists and ecologists fear that the law would be made toothless if overly radical amendments are allowed.

Mr Powell said last week that Belgium should take the warnings about the law seriously - warnings that are all the more topical after the start of a war which critics claim is illegal.
Such a nice, moral man, that Mr Powell.

[solvs]

Such a nice, moral man, that Mr Powell.
I'm losing more and more respect for him.

I think Bush could be tried as a war criminal. We arrested Saddam for killing thousands, how many has Bush killed? No ties to Al Qaeda and no WMDs = illegal war. Everyone is probably just too afraid to do something about it. They wouldn't want us invading them.

Wouldn't that be funny though if the rest of the world attacked us and took out our leaders? Not funny ha ha, more like funny uh oh. Not that we don't kinda deserve it.

[Thomas Veil]

Frankly, the death of 1,000 Americans pales into complete insignificance next to the 100,000 they went to Iraq to kill in the name of Christian Democracy. Perspective is all.
I'm ashamed to say that I forgot to mention that perspective. You're absolutely right.


More reasons that we should have term limits for the Congress and Senate.
I got pissed off listening to my local Salem radio station the other day. Twice they espoused the idea that captains of industry like Pete Coors were the ideal kind of people to be senators and representatives. Heads of industry! Yeah, like Congress isn't full of whores already.

There was the strongly implied position that average people, like schoolteachers and farmers, need never apply. So much for "of the people, by the people, for the people".

As far as Powell goes...well, I'll reserve judgment. Given the fact that he long ago expressed his desire to get out of the Bush administration at the end of this term, I think he's just parroting the Bush party line without necessarily agreeing with it.

As to a Bush war crimes charge...now that would be sweet irony!

[Thomas Veil]

Well? (He said, before the final results were in.) What do we do now?

The way I see it, we have four choices:


Start protests and riots like we haven't seen since the '60s, in the hopes of getting Bush and Cheney impeached and thrown out, leaving House Speaker Dennis Hastert as president.
Start to talk seriously about having the more liberal states secede from the union. I'm not kidding. Xtremehkr proposed the same idea re California in the "Election Results" thread.
Move out of the country.
Continue business as usual.


I don't see 4 as being a real option. Maybe I'm just discouraged, maybe I'm outright pissed, but I don't think you can "educate" people to see the liberal (or even the moderate) point of view in this country any more. You can't win the hearts and minds of people if those hearts and minds are closed. Five of the last seven administrations have been conservative, all three branches of government are conservative, and the old conservatives have given way to the scary right-wing fanatics. These "Christians" are doing the opposite of just about everything Jesus taught, but they are so filled with piety! You just can't reach people like that.

So again...what do we do now??

[LeeTom]

I vote for #2 :(
I wish it wasn't necessary, but I'm with you.
Unfortunately, if Bush wins here, my next stop will be jail.
I'm that mad.

But when I'm back, I'll be fighting the good fight.

Lee Tom
signed out, for now...

[jackieonasses]

These "Christians" are doing the opposite of just about everything Jesus taught, but they are so filled with piety! You just can't reach people like that Being an easy guy, i surprisingly didn't get upset. Nor will i voice my true opinion on the matter. Yes, i am a christian, and by voting for bush, that keeps my morals intact. If Kerry would of won tonight, i wouldn't of started a thread on how to overthrow the presidency, honestly Bush isn't THAT good, but he is better (according to my beliefs)

Please enlighten me on how i am doing the opposite of what Jesus taught?

[Mike Teezie]

Well? (He said, before the final results were in.) What do we do now?

The way I see it, we have four choices:


Start protests and riots like we haven't seen since the '60s, in the hopes of getting Bush and Cheney impeached and thrown out, leaving House Speaker Dennis Hastert as president.
Start to talk seriously about having the more liberal states secede from the union. I'm not kidding. Xtremehkr proposed the same idea re California in the "Election Results" thread.
Move out of the country.
Continue business as usual.


I don't see 4 as being a real option. Maybe I'm just discouraged, maybe I'm outright pissed, but I don't think you can "educate" people to see the liberal (or even the moderate) point of view in this country any more. You can't win the hearts and minds of people if those hearts and minds are closed. Five of the last seven administrations have been conservative, all three branches of government are conservative, and the old conservatives have given way to the scary right-wing fanatics. These "Christians" are doing the opposite of just about everything Jesus taught, but they are so filled with piety! You just can't reach people like that.

So again...what do we do now??

I don't know what to do, or how to describe the way I feel.

I would rally with any of the like minded people on this board to do whatever it took to perserve a certain way of life. Anything.

There is just too much hate in this country for me. Too much fear.

Maybe I am like you TV - just shocked, saddened.....pissed. But I honestly feel in my heart, that there are dark times ahead.

What should we do?

[Chip NoVaMac]

Being an easy guy, i surprisingly didn't get upset. Nor will i voice my true opinion on the matter. Yes, i am a christian, and by voting for bush, that keeps my morals intact. If Kerry would of won tonight, i wouldn't of started a thread on how to overthrow the presidency, honestly Bush isn't THAT good, but he is better (according to my beliefs)

Please enlighten me on how i am doing the opposite of what Jesus taught?

But I am sure you wanted Clinton out for a BJ. So lying to the nation. 100K+ deaths on lies is Ok as a Christian? Talk about morals.

But maybe we need to start impeachment proceedings for the lies that Bush and Cheney have told us so far.

[IJ Reilly]

Forget impeachment -- it's never going to happen, and it wouldn't be a good thing if it did. Don't set aside how you feel about this election, but focus those feelings on what we can do to make a new reality in 2006 and beyond.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Well? (He said, before the final results were in.) What do we do now?

The way I see it, we have four choices:


Start protests and riots like we haven't seen since the '60s, in the hopes of getting Bush and Cheney impeached and thrown out, leaving House Speaker Dennis Hastert as president.
Start to talk seriously about having the more liberal states secede from the union. I'm not kidding. Xtremehkr proposed the same idea re California in the "Election Results" thread.
Move out of the country.
Continue business as usual.


I don't see 4 as being a real option. Maybe I'm just discouraged, maybe I'm outright pissed, but I don't think you can "educate" people to see the liberal (or even the moderate) point of view in this country any more. You can't win the hearts and minds of people if those hearts and minds are closed. Five of the last seven administrations have been conservative, all three branches of government are conservative, and the old conservatives have given way to the scary right-wing fanatics. These "Christians" are doing the opposite of just about everything Jesus taught, but they are so filled with piety! You just can't reach people like that.

So again...what do we do now??

Thomas, I am not sure how to respond. My lover and I are looking at options to leave the country. It is hard to remain in a country that allows for a liar to remain in office. And a leader that feels my lover and I have no rights in "his" world.

I have lost faith in the "people". I wish I were part of the "base" of Bush. A friend of mine's husband has been unemployed for over 2 1/1 years. He is an accountant with 20+ experience , living smack dab in the middle of NYC an Philli. He is no longer "counted" as unemployed. Though he looks for a job every day.

My lover was "downsized". He suffered a "major" illness that took him out of the workforce for 3 to 4 weeks. Since then he has earned half his wage, since employers don't have to take on the benefits of an worker that is over 40 years old.

The only "upturn" in the economy for us is that my homes value just seems to go up every day. Some would say sell. But where are we to move to? We pay about 1k in mortgage and taxes on the home that by "stats' a 3 bedroom home. Though by most accounts is a 2 bedroom home. Regardless our incomes are not increasing, yet every thing else is. Like most everyone else, other than the Bush "base".

Add to that we don't enjoy ANY benefits that a "married" couple could enjoy. We have to stand alone AFTER 12 years together. That is longer than many of our "straight" friends.

Too bad with the vote, it is a slim chance to impeach the liar he is. It looks like Rove won. NAd we all will pay the price over the next 20+ years.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Forget impeachment -- it's never going to happen, and it wouldn't be a good thing if it did. Don't set aside how you feel about this election, but focus those feelings on what we can do to make a new reality in 2006 and beyond.

Right you are IJ. We need now to focus on changing the make up of the Capital; since Bush has never seen a bill that he can't Veto.

[thatwendigo]

It is hard to remain in a country that allows for a liar to remain in office. And a leader that feels my lover and I have no rights in "his" world.

Sadly, I think your best choice is another country. Read it and weep, (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/ballot.measures/) though I wish it were different.

States enacting legislationg or constitutional ammendments against gay marriage and civil unions:
Arkansas 75%
Georgia 77%
Michigan 59%
Mississippi 88%
Montana 66%
North Dakota 73%
Ohio 62%
Oklahoma 76%
Oregon 57%
Utah 66%

[MOFS]

Being an easy guy, i surprisingly didn't get upset. Nor will i voice my true opinion on the matter. Yes, i am a christian, and by voting for bush, that keeps my morals intact. If Kerry would of won tonight, i wouldn't of started a thread on how to overthrow the presidency, honestly Bush isn't THAT good, but he is better (according to my beliefs)

Please enlighten me on how i am doing the opposite of what Jesus taught?

By breaking these religious "just war" rules (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/jwintro2.shtml)

I'm fairly certain that the US and her allies have neither done it through the UN (dur!) or a using appropriate firepower (missiles on weddings anyone?) or even know why they're at war! So, since this is a Christean ideology, doesn't that leave you in a bit of a quandry? :confused: :D :D

[makisushi]

Do you think we would need to organize and form a continuous series of protests, both in our own major cities and in Washington, D.C.? Do you think we will need to start a serious writing/calling/e-mailing campaign for Bush's impeachment?



I think that with Bush winning the popular vote, and impeachment would be a difficult task.

[t300]

I think that with Bush winning the popular vote, and impeachment would be a difficult task.


Exactly. I am not the biggest Bush fan, but I am not so ANTI-Bush that I do ridiculous things. I accept that he is the President of my country no matter what. I don't like Kerry at all, and do not think he is qualified for the job, but unlike some of the filthy liberals, if he was elected, I would accept him as the leader of my country and go with what he says and does. If Bush wins, then there is a reason for his victory. People obviously like him. It's that simple. Just because all you have heard lately is Anti-Bush protests, doesn't mean that tons of people aren't for him. But...I am SO sick of hearing people, celebrities, etc. whine and complain and vow that if Bush wins they are moving to another country...Because they won't and they don't. If you move to Canada, just make sure not to come back. If Bush wins, get over it and move on with your life. If Kerry wins, get over it and move on with your life.

[jadam]

Exactly. I am not the biggest Bush fan, but I am not so ANTI-Bush that I do ridiculous things. I accept that he is the President of my country no matter what. I don't like Kerry at all, and do not think he is qualified for the job, but unlike some of the filthy liberals, if he was elected, I would accept him as the leader of my country and go with what he says and does. If Bush wins, then there is a reason for his victory. People obviously like him. It's that simple. Just because all you have heard lately is Anti-Bush protests, doesn't mean that tons of people aren't for him. But...I am SO sick of hearing people, celebrities, etc. whine and complain and vow that if Bush wins they are moving to another country...Because they won't and they don't. If you move to Canada, just make sure not to come back. If Bush wins, get over it and move on with your life. If Kerry wins, get over it and move on with your life.


well said.

[makisushi]

But...I am SO sick of hearing people, celebrities, etc. whine and complain and vow that if Bush wins they are moving to another country...

There also seems to be a few here at macrumors who are also saying they are moving. I am interested to see how many actually do it...

[pseudobrit]

There also seems to be a few here at macrumors who are also saying they are moving. I am interested to see how many actually do it...

Wait until the draft starts and see how many join the rush.

[jadam]

Wait until the draft starts and see how many join the rush.

There is going to be NO DRAFT, stop spreading these retarded conspiracy theories.

[t300]

There also seems to be a few here at macrumors who are also saying they are moving. I am interested to see how many actually do it...

LOL...Yeah, we'll see....They'll release that Canadian exchange rate SUCKS and buying Apple products requires a little more savings. QUIT with the draft crap. You're living in the past.

Oh and how could I forget...

http://www.laughatliberals.com/blog/wp-images/dems_war_tutu_02b.jpg

[pseudobrit]

LOL...Yeah, we'll see....They'll release that Canadian exchange rate SUCKS and buying Apple products requires a little more savings.

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that the Canadian dollar has surged recently and is much stronger, while the US dollar has been dropping steadily over the past few years.

QUIT with the draft crap. You're living in the past.

We'll see.

I say either he drafts or uses a nuke.

[Thomas Veil]

Yes, i am a christian, and by voting for bush, that keeps my morals intact.
<chokes on his coffee>


Please enlighten me on how i am doing the opposite of what Jesus taught?
Wow. That's one of those things that, if you have to explain it to someone, they'll never understand it.

Right now I'm just too p.o.'d to get into specifics, but I'm sure you can find existing threads here about that subject. I just don't know how getting soldiers killed for a lie, increasing terrorism activity in Iraq, supporting policies that send people's jobs overseas, and decreasing the security of their health care and retirement funds keeps anybody's morals intact.

And for the rest of you: take note of how much we dislike Bush. This isn't an "I can live with it" issue. We can't live with Bush. He disrupts our lives, keeps us from being happy in our relationships, helps us lose our jobs, may send us off to die in a false war, and is already planning on undermining programs like Social Security. There've been Republicans we've disagreed with but ended up learning to live with. Trying to live with Bush is like trying to swim peacefully in a tank with the shark from "Jaws".

And it hurts all the more because he's not only got all three branches of government, but he's going to appoint Supreme Court justices that'll affect us for the rest of their lives.

Let me ask you: how do you see that we have any hope for the future of our country at all??

[makisushi]

Wait until the draft starts and see how many join the rush.
The reinstatement of the draft is being pushed my two Democrat senators. Maybe you should take the issued up with them, not George W. Bush.

[pseudobrit]

The reinstatement of the draft is being pushed my two Democrat senators. Maybe you should take the issued up with them, not George W. Bush.

If you knew what the hell you were talking about you'd have a good point.

You don't, so you don't. The bill was a symbolic gesture that had no chance of being passed. It's not being seriously pursued by any Democrat.

[t300]

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know that the Canadian dollar has surged recently and is much stronger, while the US dollar has been dropping steadily over the past few years.

I was more referring to how much more expensive Apple products are, not the stronger currency, in which I know that Canada is gaining.

But no...There won't be a draft...UNLESS Kerry is President. If he was President, I would certainly not put it past him.

[pseudobrit]

I was more referring to how much more expensive Apple products are, not the stronger currency, in which I know that Canada is gaining.

Now whose fault is it that Apple products are more expensive in Canada? Eh?

[t300]

Now whose fault is it that Apple products are more expensive in Canada? Eh?

Probably George W. Bush's, right? Seeing as everything gets put on him anyway... ;)

[makisushi]

If you knew what the hell you were talking about you'd have a good point.

You don't, so you don't. The bill was a symbolic gesture that had no chance of being passed. It's not being seriously pursued by any Democrat.
Well, since I don't know what I am talking about, please enlighten me and show me where President Bush is seriously pursuing a reinstatement of the draft.

[pseudobrit]

Well, since I don't know what I am talking about, please enlighten me and show me where President Bush is seriously pursuing a reinstatement of the draft.

You said two Democrats were pushing for the draft. They aren't.

[jadam]

You said two Democrats were pushing for the draft. They aren't.

But they were.

[pseudobrit]

But they were.

I already went over this. It was a sybmolic act. If you can't understand that, I can't help you.

[zelmo]

Exactly. I am not the biggest Bush fan, but I am not so ANTI-Bush that I do ridiculous things. I accept that he is the President of my country no matter what. I don't like Kerry at all, and do not think he is qualified for the job, but unlike some of the filthy liberals, if he was elected, I would accept him as the leader of my country and go with what he says and does. If Bush wins, then there is a reason for his victory. People obviously like him. It's that simple. Just because all you have heard lately is Anti-Bush protests, doesn't mean that tons of people aren't for him. But...I am SO sick of hearing people, celebrities, etc. whine and complain and vow that if Bush wins they are moving to another country...Because they won't and they don't. If you move to Canada, just make sure not to come back. If Bush wins, get over it and move on with your life. If Kerry wins, get over it and move on with your life.

Absolutely could not have said it better myself.

[Thomas Veil]

But they were.
[monty python] If you want to go on arguing, you'll have to pay for another five minutes. [/monty python] :rolleyes:

[makisushi]

But they were.
Dude, I am glad that you are a Bush supporter, but really, you have to stop trolling. It is not constructive in anyway.

[Chip NoVaMac]

The reinstatement of the draft is being pushed my two Democrat senators. Maybe you should take the issued up with them, not George W. Bush.

Maybe I missed something overnight. But Virginia has two Republican Senators. George Allen and John Wolf. (source: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm?State=VA). So i guess we are closer to a draft after all.

[Chip NoVaMac]

If you knew what the hell you were talking about you'd have a good point.

You don't, so you don't. The bill was a symbolic gesture that had no chance of being passed. It's not being seriously pursued by any Democrat.

And that bill was political grandstanding by both parties to pander for votes.

[Thomas Veil]

Thomas, I am not sure how to respond....
Chip, I'm sorry to say I kind of glossed over your post when I first read it. I'm sorry to hear all these things are going badly for you, your lover and your friends and co-workers.

You're right, though. None of those things matter. (Sarcasm)

I dunno, much as I'd like to talk about impeachment, protests and such, I'm really too tired and dispirited anymore. I think moving is probably the best option in a country that obviously doesn't want me anymore...except as someone to make rich people richer and to possibly send to war.

If I can snag a job elsewhere, I am so open to the idea of moving and just letting this country collapse.

I dunno, maybe I'm still stunned from the loss. Maybe my fighting spirit will be back up later. But I doubt it.

[stubeeef]

the draft thang is getting old!
don't forget to rant about the GOP and social security too!

I wish we had some sort of draft that gave not only military options but social ones as well.

There are those that talk and those that walk the talk. Based on the volume and content of the rant, I hope that everyone here is volunteering as tutors to inner city schools, delivery people for meals on wheels, peace corps recruits, etc...... I truly hope this, NO SARCASM!

Draft yourselves to change the world, get off your chairs and help others first then yourselves. Campaign with your acts first then your mouths. Millions in this country need your help and volunteer time, just as they have under every administration over numerous decades!

But the constant draft, social security, and nuke blithering is just that...blithering. The proposal to reinstate the draft was from a very liberal democratic representative, social security is a train wreck from both parties administrations, and we will get nuked before we use one (decades of history on this one....not used one yet).

[bitfactory]

Well? (He said, before the final results were in.) What do we do now?

The way I see it, we have four choices:


Start protests and riots like we haven't seen since the '60s, in the hopes of getting Bush and Cheney impeached and thrown out, leaving House Speaker Dennis Hastert as president.
Start to talk seriously about having the more liberal states secede from the union. I'm not kidding. Xtremehkr proposed the same idea re California in the "Election Results" thread.
Move out of the country.
Continue business as usual.




this is why your party lost - you are out of touch with reality.

"Riots" ??? are you sh*tting me?

Secede from the US? if the Blue States were to secede, that would leave just Actors and Starbucks in the your new Union. not good prospects. ;-)

As far as a move out of the country - i've got some good maps if you want them.

[makisushi]

this is why your party lost - you are out of touch with reality.


Come on, man. Let's not stoop to this kind of bashing. 48% of the country voted on his side.

[bitfactory]

Come on, man. Let's not stoop to this kind of bashing. 48% of the country voted on his side.

It's not a bash - this kind of thinking is now a MINORITY. 3.5 mil votes is a lot. All the trial lawyers in the world won't erase that mandate.

[emw]

It's not a bash - this kind of thinking is now a MINORITY. 3.5 mil votes is a lot. All the trial lawyers in the world won't erase that mandate.

I'm not sure I would qualify roughly 3% of the vote as a "mandate."

[Chip NoVaMac]

Chip, I'm sorry to say I kind of glossed over your post when I first read it. I'm sorry to hear all these things are going badly for you, your lover and your friends and co-workers.

You're right, though. None of those things matter. (Sarcasm)

I dunno, much as I'd like to talk about impeachment, protests and such, I'm really too tired and dispirited anymore. I think moving is probably the best option in a country that obviously doesn't want me anymore...except as someone to make rich people richer and to possibly send to war.

If I can snag a job elsewhere, I am so open to the idea of moving and just letting this country collapse.

I dunno, maybe I'm still stunned from the loss. Maybe my fighting spirit will be back up later. But I doubt it.

Thomas, thanks for the kind words. Though I mentioned what I did on so many fronts since we have become a nation that ignores things unless it affects us personally.

It was only after 9-11 that we saw "terrorism" as a true threat. Despite the previous bombing of the WTC and the Capital. It was other countries problems, not ours.

The economy is growing for only those that have good jobs already. Too many of us are being left behind.

I understand about lacking the "spirit". In 1992 and 1996 Clinton got 5 to 10% more of the popular vote. Yet some tried every way they could to take him down. Between 2000 and 2001 the American people have given up.

Millions of people marched around the country and the world against war in Iraq. They (I) was counted as the "lunatic fringe" by the administration. I know the lack of "spirit" after seeing how people prior to yesterday dealt with being told that Iraq had WMD, and none were found. That Iraq had links to the terrorists, but only after we invaded their country. Being told the economy is growing, but many "older" workers are left behind.

In Virginia, Wolf won over Socas for Congress. In many of my writings to politicians, Wolf and his "auto-reply" always spoke of to quote "how I feel", not how his constituents "felt". But how he "felt" on an issue. That campaign came down to dirty ads, and what Wolf did for the "hardware" side of the community. Yes, he brought money for extension of Metro Rail to the Dulles area. Yes, he supported Federal dollars for highways in our area. Yet he did not support basic human rights for the area.

I am not sure that people like you and I have any relevance in the new "neocon" world. For you and I were taught (maybe) that the Chinese labor that built our railroads at near "slave" wages was a good thing. That putting Japanese-Americans in interment camps was the "right" thing to do.

I wish I had been of age in the 60's. For back then, ones opinion counted one way or another. Today you and i are just a minor voice that does not matter. It is so hard to "fight" when so many feel the way you do, but are unwilling to do something about it.

My lover is with a government contractor. Dealing with Homeland security issues. He can not speak his political mind, while others in his workplace are. I am tired of hearing that the neocons see the election as a vindication of their "policies".

The problem in trying to leave the US for other soil is that many countries have what I call "sensible immigration" policies. For someone like myself, a retail worker, I am limited as to the jobs that I might get in another country. i doubt that me or you being from the US would grant us asylum in most countries. We have to have something to offer to gain access.

Bush talked of a new status for those willing to do jobs that Americans will not accept. He could have made the move to make those jobs acceptable to Americans. Yes, it could mean higher prices; but that is a small price to pay in order to help those at home. US Air just announced the other day that they are sending reservation calls to India. Hell, I know some that work those call centers at about $7 to $12 an hour. For most that is not livable wages.

We did not see people in the street, since most are worried that their job will be sent to India, or other countries. Bush I's a"new world order" has finally come true. How, or why do we fight it? Do you and I "tilt" at windmills? Or do we hide in our own space and hope that we can live a life worth meaning till the rest of the nation understands the ramifications of their choices.

In the end it seems that "I did not inhale" trumps acknowledged drug use. That a BJ is more important than lying about the reasons for war. Why should you and I fight to make things "right", if the rest are willing to roll over and take it up you know where?

What bothers me is that the talking heads heads say that Kerry lost "decisively" over Bush. A million or two votes is not s decisive vote in a country of 300+ million.

[acdninjapan]

if bush is elected again i'm gonna get the hell outa here as soon as i can.

this country is not doing well at all...

Head to China and take a set of plans for Spaceship 1. They'll welcome you with open arms and pocketsful of cash.

[Chip NoVaMac]

the draft thang is getting old!
don't forget to rant about the GOP and social security too!

I wish we had some sort of draft that gave not only military options but social ones as well.

There are those that talk and those that walk the talk. Based on the volume and content of the rant, I hope that everyone here is volunteering as tutors to inner city schools, delivery people for meals on wheels, peace corps recruits, etc...... I truly hope this, NO SARCASM!

Draft yourselves to change the world, get off your chairs and help others first then yourselves. Campaign with your acts first then your mouths. Millions in this country need your help and volunteer time, just as they have under every administration over numerous decades!

But the constant draft, social security, and nuke blithering is just that...blithering. The proposal to reinstate the draft was from a very liberal democratic representative, social security is a train wreck from both parties administrations, and we will get nuked before we use one (decades of history on this one....not used one yet).

Some of us already do that. In many ways. In our house we are active on the Breast Cancer and Lung Cancer front. many of us give up some luxuries in order to help others. What I see is those that have the least to give, give the most. This is a firsthand experience in my area.

Social Security was a "promise" from the government for my future (I am old enough to say that). I missed the draft by one year, so I will never support others going in to a political war like Vietnam or Iraq. And if we get "nuked" it is only because of our policies that allow for it.

The talking heads have come out saying that Bush will have to "reach out" to the nation. He did not do it 4 years ago, why should he now?

[Chip NoVaMac]

It's not a bash - this kind of thinking is now a MINORITY. 3.5 mil votes is a lot. All the trial lawyers in the world won't erase that mandate.

Probably the same percentage supported owning a slave in years gone by. Not to mention that you are talking about 1% of the total population of the US. But yet all the Haliburton execs and oil execs did. Only those that have need now apply.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Head to China and take a set of plans for Spaceship 1. They'll welcome you with open arms and pocketsful of cash.

Comments like this shows that there is no room at the table unless you agree totally with the "neocon" agenda. I hear nothing from people like yourself to be welcomed to the "table". If Kerry had won, I think you would see that your opinions would have been welcomed and integrated into the new administration.

[kylos]

Well? (He said, before the final results were in.) What do we do now?

The way I see it, we have four choices:


Start protests and riots like we haven't seen since the '60s, in the hopes of getting Bush and Cheney impeached and thrown out, leaving House Speaker Dennis Hastert as president.
Start to talk seriously about having the more liberal states secede from the union. I'm not kidding. Xtremehkr proposed the same idea re California in the "Election Results" thread.
Move out of the country.
Continue business as usual.


I held such ridiculous ideas when I was 14. Grow up, and learn to work with people.

[Thomas Veil]

It's not a bash - this kind of thinking is now a MINORITY.
At least it's still THINKING. ;)


<snip>
Where do you think Bush is going to get the soldiers from for his nation-building ventures? Or are we going to be keeping our present troops in Iraq there for three, four, five or six years? That's some tour of duty!

As far as us predicting more disasters in another Bush term...hey, a lot of the bad things we said were going to happen in his first term did happen...and then some.


I held such ridiculous ideas when I was 14. Grow up, and learn to work with people.
Grow up? Or grow old? I've retained my youthful open-mindedness, how about you?

As far as working with people...I said elsewhere that these are not conservatives, these are neo-cons. Conservatives you can work with. Neo-cons, on the other hand, are always right and have no use for other opinions. Sure, Bush talks about working with liberals, but it's just so much lip service.

Chip: a very thoughtful post. You'd've liked living in the '60s. I was only in my early teens then, but the open-mindedness, the sense of building a brighter future, the activism, the involvement...even at my age, those were thrilling, like an ongoing adrenalin rush.

You know, if we could instill that attitude in our kids today, we'd all be fine. But they voted in the same kind of numbers they did four years ago. I don't know if they really are slackers, or if they're just so beaten-down and discouraged about fighting the system that they don't even try.

[IJ Reilly]

Please people, take a few deep breaths before posting. We've seen a lot of clear rule violations over the past few hours, and I wouldn't expect the mods to remain patient forever.

[mactastic]

...unlike some of the filthy liberals...


Hey! I shower every day.

Generally:
People, Take deep breaths before you post. Both sides. No reason for talk of secession or riots PLEASE. Kerry losing is NOT the end of the world. Deal with the reality on the ground and move on. There will be another day to fight again.

The personal attacks are getting a little out of hand.

Edit: Looks like IJ beat me to it.

[makisushi]

The personal attacks are getting a little out of hand.

Edit: Looks like IJ beat me to it.
Thank you.

[mypantsaretight]

How 'bout them Eagles??? 7-0.

BTW, did anyone see the big news clip on the mainstream media where thousands of Bush voters are lining up at recruiting offices with their children in a mass of volunteers for Iraq? It does my heart good to see such expressions of patriotism and it should silence all of those who dared to suggest that these people won't put their lives on the line for their country. Bravo.

peace

[Chip NoVaMac]

I held such ridiculous ideas when I was 14. Grow up, and learn to work with people.

While some ideas may be extreme, but no more extreme than the "neocons" and their "ideas". I am not sure how old you are, but there are many of us that "remember" that marching in the streets over Vietnam, and other issues.

There are those of us that remember the Civil Rights Marches. We remember the schools of Alabama and integration, and Rosa Park and equal rights for all.

Four years ago Bush "promised" to be a "compassionate conservative". I would assume that would mean that that he would "learn to work with others".

[Chip NoVaMac]

Please people, take a few deep breaths before posting. We've seen a lot of clear rule violations over the past few hours, and I wouldn't expect the mods to remain patient forever.

I hope that I never "crossed" the line here.

[howard]

How 'bout them Eagles??? 7-0.

BTW, did anyone see the big news clip on the mainstream media where thousands of Bush voters are lining up at recruiting offices with their children in a mass of volunteers for Iraq? It does my heart good to see such expressions of patriotism and it should silence all of those who dared to suggest that these people won't put their lives on the line for their country. Bravo.

peace

Invading a country and killing innocent Iraqis is not patriotism. I would never put my life on the line for a cause and country I don't believe in and I will NEVER be made to. I feel sorry for the U.S. soldiers who are losing there lives for a cause that they do not believe in.

go eagles

btw: i couldn't agree more with the last word of your post


PEACE

[thatwendigo]

No reason for talk of secession or riots PLEASE. Kerry losing is NOT the end of the world. Deal with the reality on the ground and move on. There will be another day to fight again.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Last night, the American people proved that they would rather swallow a big lie and strain at little fibs. They've given all the evidence that any reasonable person could need that actual security, the liberties our Founders fought and died for, and the other aspects of our country that supposedly make it "free" are worthless. You are not equal unless you marry a woman, you are not equal if you don't support Bush, and you certainly aren't equal if you do so much as visibly lampoon the administration (see numerous abuses by FBI and DoHS since 9/11).

The Democratic party is dead. There is no other excuse for the fact that they failed in the face of one of the most obviously corrupt, self-serving regimes in documented American history. Bush flew in the face of international good will, taking us all along behind him, and it has sold well to the simple folk of middle America and the South.

Fear.

Fear has won, and I want no part of a government that was chosen by people who won't research things for themselves. The polls leading into the election showed how much Bush's strong supporters believed Iraq not only had weapons of mass destruction, but was intimately tied to the events of September eleventh. Meanwhile, the numbers that know about how Bush let al-Zarqaw go are close to basically nothing.

Fleeing may not be the best option, but the status quo isn't, either. The system of checks and balances no longer applies when a single party has entrenched itself in two branches and stands to deeply affect the third with its choices. We're in for a rocky road.

[mactastic]

It's not quite time for a revolution yet....

Even if Steve Earle says so. ;)

[Chip NoVaMac]

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Last night, the American people proved that they would rather swallow a big lie and strain at little fibs. They've given all the evidence that any reasonable person could need that actual security, the liberties our Founders fought and died for, and the other aspects of our country that supposedly make it "free" are worthless. You are not equal unless you marry a woman, you are not equal if you don't support Bush, and you certainly aren't equal if you do so much as visibly lampoon the administration (see numerous abuses by FBI and DoHS since 9/11).

The Democratic party is dead. There is no other excuse for the fact that they failed in the face of one of the most obviously corrupt, self-serving regimes in documented American history. Bush flew in the face of international good will, taking us all along behind him, and it has sold well to the simple folk of middle America and the South.

Fear.

Fear has won, and I want no part of a government that was chosen by people who won't research things for themselves. The polls leading into the election showed how much Bush's strong supporters believed Iraq not only had weapons of mass destruction, but was intimately tied to the events of September eleventh. Meanwhile, the numbers that know about how Bush let al-Zarqaw go are close to basically nothing.

Fleeing may not be the best option, but the status quo isn't, either. The system of checks and balances no longer applies when a single party has entrenched itself in two branches and stands to deeply affect the third with its choices. We're in for a rocky road.

So much o what you said is true. It took me 30 to 45 second to vote yersterday. Yet on average it too 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 minutes for EACH vote! the issue was not of whom to vote or President or Congress. But the delay may have been due to the "touch screens". I saw a woman that took at least 5 minutes to cast her vote..

[kylos]

Four years ago Bush "promised" to be a "compassionate conservative". I would assume that would mean that that he would "learn to work with others".

Here's my take: Bush works very well with others. Its the others that don't work well with him. Before you completely write this off, however, let me state that I feel that the current partisanship of our nation developed because of how Clinton was treated in office. Yeah, I'm no Clinton fan, but the right wing made his presidency miserable, and I feel Bush is getting the return stroke from that. As a nation, we need to try to get along, or things are going to get bad in a hurry.

[Thomas Veil]

BTW, did anyone see the big news clip on the mainstream media where thousands of Bush voters are lining up at recruiting offices with their children in a mass of volunteers for Iraq? It does my heart good to see such expressions of patriotism and it should silence all of those who dared to suggest that these people won't put their lives on the line for their country. Bravo.
*smirk* :D


That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
Beautiful. Just beautiful. Can't improve on the way Jefferson said it.

I'm not afraid to think in bold terms of separation. We already said goodbye to one King George. Be ironic if this King George were to be the cause of another split.

[relimw]

Four years ago Bush "promised" to be a "compassionate conservative". I would assume that would mean that that he would "learn to work with others".

Of course, in order to work with people, you need people that aren't yelling 'Well, he didn't win the popular vote, so he's not our president.' Every chance the democrats got, they 'reminded' Bush, that he was not 'elected by the popular vote, and therefore didn't represent them.'

My challenge to you, will you support Bush now that he has both the popular vote and the electoral vote? Or will you continue to gripe and complain that because you didn't vote for him, he therefore doesn't represent you?

[relimw]

Where do you think Bush is going to get the soldiers from for his nation-building ventures? Or are we going to be keeping our present troops in Iraq there for three, four, five or six years? That's some tour of duty!


Hmm, and to think, we've had troops stationed in Europe for how long because of Germany and friends? Sixty years? Wow, now there's a tour of duty for ya!

Do you personally have something against freeing repressed people from dictators?

[Chip NoVaMac]

Of course, in order to work with people, you need people that aren't yelling 'Well, he didn't win the popular vote, so he's not our president.' Every chance the democrats got, they 'reminded' Bush, that he was not 'elected by the popular vote, and therefore didn't represent them.'

My challenge to you, will you support Bush now that he has both the popular vote and the electoral vote? Or will you continue to gripe and complain that because you didn't vote for him, he therefore doesn't represent you?

Noticed you overlooked his failures in "uniting" the nation.

In 2000 I was disappointed. But I gave him a chance. He failed. And he has no respect from me.

Because the people no longer take the right to vote seriously, for that reason we are looking at what it will take to leave the US.

[Thomas Veil]

Hmm, and to think, we've had troops stationed in Europe for how long because of Germany and friends? Sixty years? Wow, now there's a tour of duty for ya!

Do you personally have something against freeing repressed people from dictators?
We have 80-year-old soldiers who've been on duty in Europe for sixty years? ;)

Seriously, those guys are not doing combat tours. Already we've got a lot of soldiers not reporting for duty when recalled to battle because they disagree with the war, because they were lied to about how long they were going to be there, or because they're simply burned out.

As to freeing repressed people...that's a switch! Republicans used to lecture us about not being the world's policeman. I could get on board with that position if (a) Bush had said that in the first place instead of this WMD crap, (b) he'd had a post-war plan, and (c) our boys didn't represent 90% of the soldiers doing the dirty work.

[groovebuster]

..., for that reason we are looking at what it will take to leave the US.

What's your profession anyway?

If you want to come to Europe it will be just as hard as if a european wouild like to go to the US. Getting a work permit isn't easy and depends on your profession...

groovebuster

[kylos]

Because the people no longer take the right to vote seriously, for that reason we are looking at what it will take to leave the US.

Because we had an extremely high voter turnout with strong feelings about this election and a majority of the population didn't agree with you, people no longer take the right to vote seriously? That's a lot of arrogance.

[groovebuster]

Because we had an extremely high voter turnout with strong feelings about this election and a majority of the population didn't agree with you, people no longer take the right to vote seriously? That's a lot of arrogance.
Is it so hard to get?

This election is not only about different positions, it is also about a majority of people in the US re-electing a man that lied to the public about almost everything his administration was involved with. Even worse, he gets re-elected. Bush is talking about moral values and I can't see any in his actions. That's what most people are shocked about. I totally can understand that some people just have a bad feeling now to live in a country where the majority seems to back a president that in my book is a criminal and should be punished as hard as possible. When your own basic beliefs and morals collide with the position of the majority it is just normal that you start feel uncomfortable and looking for other options...

This is not about disagreement, this is about live quality.

groovebuster

[Thomas Veil]

Look, from the Kerry camp point of view, here's what it comes down to:

Osama bin Laden may attack us again. Probably will, even. But the chances he's going to hit my family (or yours) are very, very small. And if we had spent more energy on al-Qaeda instead of Iraq, the danger would be reduced even further.

Bush, on the other hand, has put laws in place to spy on us; is getting our sons and daughters killed for a war based on a lie; is allowing more pollution of the air we breathe, the food we eat and the water we drink; is cutting education grants; is making sure seniors keep on paying a fortune for their meds; is encouraging companies to move jobs abroad; isn't putting all his resources into finding bin Laden; but is bankrupting the country like bin Laden wants him to, leaving a massive debt for our children to pay back.

Now, you tell me...which person is a more immediate threat to my security, happiness and livelihood?