I am Ashamed to be American

[OutThere]

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[Chaszmyr]

I feel your pain. Think Bush would get the picture and resign if there was a mass exodus to Canada?

[makisushi]

I feel your pain. Think Bush would get the picture and resign if there was a mass exodus to Canada?
no.

[mactastic]

I'm feeling kind of ashamed of being a liberal today the way some of you are acting. Venting the rage and anger isn't going to help the cause. Be magnanimous in victory and gracious in defeat.

If only I had a nickel for every time a leftie has called Bush or America stupid today....

[QCassidy352]

Amen. I am with you, except in that I don't have dual citizenship anywhere. :(

Why is it that international polls showed Bush losing roughly 75%-25% and only Americans are stupid enough to think he's done a good job? Why is this country blind to what the rest of the world can see as so blindingly obvious?

It's not about republicans vs. democrats, either. It's not like Bush Sr. or Regan faced this kind of hatred from overseas. It's this particular administration, this particular man.

[QCassidy352]

I'm feeling kind of ashamed of being a liberal today the way some of you are acting. Venting the rage and anger isn't going to help the cause.

If only I had a nickel for every time a leftie has called Bush or America stupid today....

If the shoe fits... mactastic... if the shoe fits.

I've never been so disgusted in my life as this morning.

[bousozoku]

Never be ashamed of being an American.

You can be frustrated as much as you want or need to be but this is a good country, despite the idiots. Remember that there are idiots in other countries, too--they're not an exclusive to the U.S.A.

There have been times when I doubted why I had been brought to this country or how it would work out but I will never be ashamed of being an American.

[edesignuk]

Why is it that international polls showed Bush losing roughly 75%-25% and only Americans are stupid enough to think he's done a good job? Why is this country blind to what the rest of the world can see as so blindingly obvious?That sir, is a puzzle :confused:
It's not about republicans vs. democrats, either. It's not like Bush Sr. or Regan faced this kind of hatred from overseas. It's this particular administration, this particular man.Speaking as someone outside the US, you're spot on...IMO anyway :)

[mactastic]

I've never been so disgusted in my life as this morning.

Same here. But that doesn't change the outcome, nor the fact that we need to work with what we are given.

[Thomas Veil]

I feel your pain. Think Bush would get the picture and resign if there was a mass exodus to Canada?
Has Bush ever changed his mind about anything?


You can be frustrated as much as you want or need to be but this is a good country, despite the idiots.
I used to believe that. But this country's choices don't match its professed image of benevolence.


There have been times when I doubted why I had been brought to this country...
:confused: "Brought here"? I thought slave ships went out some time ago. ;)

[takao]

That sir, is a puzzle :confused:

ditto
every reaction i got today when speaking with people at my age about the election was this:
:confused:
and of course the famous sentence"how can they vote for that guy _twice_"

[Backtothemac]

Here is what is moving me right now. I am a republican. However, when Bill Clinton was elected, I was reserved to the fact that he is my President, and I will support him. He was my commander in chief when I was in the military. I actually voted for him in 96 because I did support him. I cannot understand how someone cannot have the opinion that they will disagree with the President, but, they are their President.

To say that you would leave the country, and to act like the world has come to an end does not make those that are moderate, or even right think that you are capable of supporting anything but your own view, and that, is narrow minded. I do not support Bush blindly, I disagree with him on many subjects, however, to say that we are stupid, is calling over 50 million Americans stupid. I just cannot buy that. We are divided, however, Bush won by a larger margin than any President in over 12 years.

Do not be ashamed of your countrymen, be proud. Be proud that they actually voted in this election. Close to 60% turnout! Are you kidding me! That is wonderful.

Do not insult your party, your candidate, and your causes by portraying yourself as a radical that incapable of working with the otherside.

[ocellnuri]

... and to act like the world has come to an end...

I just figure that the prophecies of Revelations can come to light now... :rolleyes:

[MOFS]

I'm feeling kind of ashamed of being a liberal today the way some of you are acting. Venting the rage and anger isn't going to help the cause. Be magnanimous in victory and gracious in defeat.

If only I had a nickel for every time a leftie has called Bush or America stupid today....

Since when was venting your anger at a loss of something you thought had a better idea wrong. As an outsider, from just about every post by anyone who didn't want Bush to win, they've given a reason ruled by head as to why they voted for Kerry. Even the Nader voters wanted Kerry to defeat BUsh. That seems to be the whole reason for this anger - a dislike of Bush and his policies, particuarly on Iraq and terrorism - but also for a fear of what may happen in the next four years. Never have I felt that one decision could affect the world on such a grand scale. I can see repurcusions from the anti-American (Middle Eastern) world, and an increasingly religiously lead Bush causing havok over the next four years.

With tony behind him :(

[mypantsaretight]

I just figure that the prophecies of Revelations can come to light now...

Great gooogly mooogly. Fear the Illuminati.

[edesignuk]

I don't know about anyone else, but I think that a lot of peoples issue is with Bush, not necessarily the party (though of course for many it will be party).

I cannot understand why over half of America would vote this man (ignoring his party) back in again, it make no sense what-so-ever to me :confused:

[mactastic]

Since when was venting your anger at a loss of something you thought had a better idea wrong.

It's bad sportsmanship. I'm sorry, but I don't like gloating winners, nor non-gracious losers. Life continues.

[QCassidy352]

I cannot understand how someone cannot have the opinion that they will disagree with the President, but, they are their President.


Because I voted against him, twice. Because I think he's a terrible president and a despicable person. Because I have yet to see him make one right decision, or admit one wrong decision.

I'm not going to respect him or call him "my president" just because 2% more americans made the wrong choice than made the right one. Why should a simple majority vote earn a man *my* respect? Only he can do that, through his own actions.

I used to believe that. But this country's choices don't match its professed image of benevolence.

That's my feeling exactly. The choices and the actions don't back up the words and the image.

[yg17]

I've never been so disgusted in my life as this morning.

Same here....I've literaly been sick to my stomach all day after getting the results. I couldn't eat much at all because I was just disgusted about what the country did yesterday. And I'm not ashamed to be an American, but I'm ashamed to be from the same country that voted this crook into a 2nd term in office

[Thomas Veil]

Backtothemac, the anger is at a Republican party that has given itself over to its radicals. Regular conservatism we could live with, but this stubborn "We are right and the rest of the world is wrong" neo-conservatism scares the crap out of us. It's basically telling us that we don't count anymore.

Really, it's not that some of us are considering leaving the country. It's that the country has left us.

[3rdpath]

in spite of my feelings of anger and sadness with the election outcome, i'm proud to be an american. it is a great country...with many problems, but still a great country.

i believe we have lost our way and yet i feel that somehow this misstep into the dark unknown will somehow help us choose a better path in the future.

the one thing we can't do, regardless of party affiliation, is let any administration proceed without the scrutiny it so justly deserves.

[blackfox]

It's bad sportsmanship. I'm sorry, but I don't like gloating winners, nor non-gracious losers. Life continues.Indeed.

[MacDawg]

and of course the famous sentence"how can they vote for that guy _twice_"

I thought the same thing when Clinton was reelected

[mactastic]

I thought the same thing when Clinton was reelected

Yeah, but you had some preperation. Everyone knew Dole didn't stand a chance.

[Lyle]

It's bad sportsmanship. I'm sorry, but I don't like gloating winners, nor non-gracious losers. Life continues.Thank you.

[Mr_Ed]

...
Why is it that international polls showed Bush losing roughly 75%-25% and only Americans are stupid enough to think he's done a good job? Why is this country blind to what the rest of the world can see as so blindingly obvious?
...


One could argue that those international polls show how little understanding there is overseas about what actually drives Americans to vote a certain way. Many Americans might wonder how the rest of the world seems blind to what is so blindingly obvious to them. You know, there's always more than one way to look at an issue. As for how much weight such polls overseas would carry with the average American voter, I would guess it's normally pretty close to zero. I would add that many Americans take exception to overseas entities trying to influence the local vote (as with that stunt by "The Guardian") and such media attention on negative international opinion might not have the desired effect.

[edesignuk]

It's bad sportsmanship. I'm sorry, but I don't like gloating winners, nor non-gracious losers. Life continues.Problem is, the "prize" here wasn't as meaningless as a trophy in sport, this meant a great deal to a lot of people (obviously). Winning or loosing in a situation where what's at stake is so great, I wouldn't expect great sportsmanship from the supporters of either side. Though I would expect those who played the game to act graciously.

[mactastic]

Problem is, the "prize" here wasn't as meaningless as a trophy in sport, this meant a great deal to a lot of people (obviously). Winning or loosing in a situation where what's at stake is so great, I wouldn't expect great sportsmanship from the supporters of either side. Though I would expect those who played the game to act graciously.

My personal feeling is that it doesn't matter if it's a little league trophy or POTUS. Sportsmanship is sportsmanship. Show some class to your opposition.

Just don't think I won't be down in the trenches fighting their every move for the next four years. :p

[chanoc]

I am thoroughly ashamed to be the citizen of a country that elected George W. Bush for president.

Me too!

I am unable to comprehend the immense stupidity of this country's citizens who voted for George W. Bush.

It's that "common sense" mentallity.

My contempt for the current, and now re-elected, president of the United States of America is immeasurable.

I feel that same contempt myself.


I do not consider myself radically liberal, but I feel that the re-election of George W. Bush as president is the second step down the stairs to the demise of America.

Straight down the sh!++er!

I feel completely disgusted with the people of this country, and with the administration of this country.

I voted for Kerry, it was those "common sense" neo-right wings that relected Bush.

I am seriously considering leaving the country until there is a new president elected in 2008.

I am considering the Phillipines, Nicaragua, etc.

The United States is a fallen power, the election and re-election of George W. Bush is a complete and absolute disgrace. This country will never return to the position of power, control and leadership that it once held in the world. The United States as a nation has fallen and will never get up.

Yeap!

John Kerry offered salvation to the country, and he was rejected in favor of boarding a sinking ship.

It's that "common sense".

The founding fathers have been dishonored, and this countries honor has been decimated.

I wonder what Thomas Jefferson would think of Bush and the state of this country?

It is over. I am proud to have citizenship of Switzerland, and proud of the fact that I have ties to Europe, a place that knows the truth about who George W. Bush truly is, and what he has done to this country.

Take me with you brother, take me with you!

[bousozoku]

:confused: "Brought here"? I thought slave ships went out some time ago. ;)

Yes, I am a Japanese import, and I came over on a ship. ;)

My adoptive parents are white Americans. We don't agree on much except that we didn't want 4 more years of the current mess. They didn't like Bush 4 years ago but they thought that Cheney was good for old people. They've changed their minds, but my parents, unlike a lot of the country, think.

[yg17]

With 4 more years of a president who couldn't lead his way out of a paper bag and the nation as divided as it was during the civil war, whats left of the American future? No empire can last forever, and the situation here at home kinda makes you wonder how much more longer the US can last.

[MacNut]

I am thoroughly ashamed to be the citizen of a country that elected George W. Bush for president. I am unable to comprehend the immense stupidity of this country's citizens who voted for George W. Bush. My contempt for the current, and now re-elected, president of the United States of America is immeasurable. I do not consider myself radically liberal, but I feel that the re-election of George W. Bush as president is the second step down the stairs to the demise of America. I feel completely disgusted with the people of this country, and with the administration of this country. I am seriously considering leaving the country until there is a new president elected in 2008. The United States is a fallen power, the election and re-election of George W. Bush is a complete and absolute disgrace. This country will never return to the position of power, control and leadership that it once held in the world. The United States as a nation has fallen and will never get up. John Kerry offered salvation to the country, and he was rejected in favor of boarding a sinking ship. The founding fathers have been dishonored, and this countries honor has been decimated. It is over. I am proud to have citizenship of Switzerland, and proud of the fact that I have ties to Europe, a place that knows the truth about who George W. Bush truly is, and what he has done to this country.

Sincerely,
A Disheartened American


If thats how you feel, The doors over there, And take Ben Affleck and Micheal Moore with you. :mad:

[srobert]

If thats how you feel, The doors over there, And take Ben Affleck and Micheal Moore with you. :mad:

Funny. This reminds me of a funny quote I've seen on another political discussion site today:

Bill Hicks once told a story about an American friend of his who complained about the USA. When told, "well, if you don't like it then move somewhere else" the friend's reply would be, "What? And become a victim of our foreign policy?"

Your canadian friend, wishing you the best, wether you are blue, red or purple.

[MacNut]

Don't blame the voters for voting for Bush, blame the Democrats for nominating a Hollywood butt kisser who was more interested in playing with his big movie stars than listening to the problems of the people. Everyone knows that the Democrats are betting on Hillary in 08 and are breathing a secret sigh of relief that Kerry lost.

[mactastic]

Everyone knows that the Democrats are betting on Hillary in 08 and are breathing a secret sigh of relief that Kerry lost.


Yeah, that's what I'm doing alright. :rolleyes:

[Steven1621]

You sum up my thoughts very well. I'm really sorry for the rest of the world. Hey I voted for Kerry so I did my part.

[Steven1621]

Backtothemac, the anger is at a Republican party that has given itself over to its radicals. Regular conservatism we could live with, but this stubborn "We are right and the rest of the world is wrong" neo-conservatism scares the crap out of us. It's basically telling us that we don't count anymore.

Really, it's not that some of us are considering leaving the country. It's that the country has left us.

very well said. you hit it perfectly

[Ugg]

One could argue that those international polls show how little understanding there is overseas about what actually drives Americans to vote a certain way. Many Americans might wonder how the rest of the world seems blind to what is so blindingly obvious to them. You know, there's always more than one way to look at an issue. As for how much weight such polls overseas would carry with the average American voter, I would guess it's normally pretty close to zero. I would add that many Americans take exception to overseas entities trying to influence the local vote (as with that stunt by "The Guardian") and such media attention on negative international opinion might not have the desired effect.

Not to attack, but you seem to be conferring onto Americans some special status that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. We're not that unique, no really, we're not. What your post does point out though is the isolationism that is taking over. Love and respect thy neighbor isn't just about the family across the street or across the country but in every country in the world.

That "stunt" wasn't about influencing American voters although the American press seems to think so. What it was about was reaching across the water and saying, hey, we're really all on the same page here and this is what I think about it. The idea that Americans can't learn from anyone outside our borders is a very, very pathetically sad idea. If we're going to claim the # one spot then we damned well better be listening to the rest of the world unless we truly want to be isolated in international matters.

Who we elect as president has a huge impact on world affairs just as who France or the UK or Germany elects. Unfortunately, few Americans seem to care about anything outside their own borders. I can't tell you how saddened I am about the blinkers of fear that gw has convinced so many Americans to wear.

[scem0]

It sickens me too.

It's hard to respect other people's opinions when their opinions can have a negative effect on you.

scem0

[the future]

I'm sorry, but I don't like gloating winners, nor non-gracious losers. Life continues.

No, for 1000+ Americans and 100000+ Iraqis it doesn't.

[mactastic]

No, for 1000+ Americans and 100000+ Iraqis it doesn't.

I understand that, and am against the Iraq war, but for 240,000,000+ American and many millions of Iraqis, life DOES continue.

[the future]

One could argue that those international polls show how little understanding there is overseas about what actually drives Americans to vote a certain way.

Please enlighten us. Why did you vote for Bush? What exactly did he do right in the last 4 years?

[the future]

I understand that, and am against the Iraq war, but for 240,000,000+ American and many millions of Iraqis, life DOES continue.

But it's their blood on Bush's hands, shed without reason, and because of that it's just very hard to comprehend how he could be re-elected and just as hard to accept it and go on with our normal lives.

[mactastic]

But it's their blood on Bush's hands, shed without reason, and because of that it's just very hard to comprehend how he could be re-elected and just as hard to accept it and go on with our normal lives.

Just because it's hard doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done IMHO.

[5300cs]

Don't blame the voters for voting for Bush, blame the Democrats for nominating a Hollywood butt kisser who was more interested in playing with his big movie stars than listening to the problems of the people. Everyone knows that the Democrats are betting on Hillary in 08 and are breathing a secret sigh of relief that Kerry lost.

Did you vote? The fact that someone like you can vote really scares me.

[the future]

Just because it's hard doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done IMHO.

Well, we have no other choice anyway. Give us some time.

[blackfox]

This is interesting. When facing a problem, or as an expression of character, I find the quote below to be indicative of the America I would like to see, and I feel an America that many pretend to see now.

Just because it's hard doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done IMHO.

The reality, imo, is that this is more indicative of our reality:
Well, we have no other choice anyway. Give us some time.
This really sums up a lot imo.

[igucl]

To OutThere761: Good Riddance!

I endured eight years under Clinton and accepted our lot. This is how democracy works. You will have to accept that the majority of Americans do not agree with you, and endure until next time. Of course I am riding a high right now with the Republican victory, but I am well aware that the people are fickle, and that this will not last. You should take comfort in that.

[Mr_Ed]

Not to attack, but you seem to be conferring onto Americans some special status that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. We're not that unique, no really, we're not. What your post does point out though is the isolationism that is taking over. Love and respect thy neighbor isn't just about the family across the street or across the country but in every country in the world.

That "stunt" wasn't about influencing American voters although the American press seems to think so. What it was about was reaching across the water and saying, hey, we're really all on the same page here and this is what I think about it. The idea that Americans can't learn from anyone outside our borders is a very, very pathetically sad idea. If we're going to claim the # one spot then we damned well better be listening to the rest of the world unless we truly want to be isolated in international matters.

Who we elect as president has a huge impact on world affairs just as who France or the UK or Germany elects. Unfortunately, few Americans seem to care about anything outside their own borders. I can't tell you how saddened I am about the blinkers of fear that gw has convinced so many Americans to wear.

My post merely points out that there is lack of understanding on both sides here (domestic vs. international). It includes some of my own observations based on people's reactions to recent events. Not sure how anything I said confers unto Americans "some special status," as you put it. Could you explain?

"Love and respect thy neighbor" does not imply that you have to agree with your neighbor 100% of the time. There will be disagreements from time to time. Right now (if we believe the international polls cited earlier) the majority of Europeans do not agree with the majority of Americans on a variety of issues. So be it. I don't believe that will always be the case, nor do I believe it is impossible for the U.S. and our historical allies to find some common ground but right now it seems Americans and Europeans "agree to disagree."

In regards to what "The Guardian" did, I can't see it as anything other than a publicity stunt on the part of a newspaper. I realize the American election has impact all over the world and I have no problem with anyone from anywhere engaging me in a discussion in a variety ways (such as we do in on-line forums) but don't try to pretend there is a "noble" motive behind what that newspaper did. They wanted publicity and they got it. I'm merely pointing out that some Americans reacted negatively to the whole thing.

Please enlighten us. Why did you vote for Bush? What exactly did he do right in the last 4 years?
As I said, my post shows there is a lack of understanding and an American could just as easily be asking of Europeans (for example) why they don't understand the motives for his vote. I really don't want to get into a discussion which I had a hundred times before yesterday, but I could summarize by telling you that I am registered as an "independent" and my votes yesterday on national, state, and local (yes, we actually vote on more than just the presidency) issues cut across "party lines." As for the presidential race, I did ask myself if I really thought Kerry would do better in the next four years based on what he had to say. I wasn't convinced. Simple as that.

[igucl]

This is called an unabashed attempt to save this thread from extinction. I would like to hear some more opinions on this subject from fellow reasonable citizens. Have you come to a state of acceptance and belief in the fairness of our democratic system?

[bousozoku]

To OutThere761: Good Riddance!

I endured eight years under Clinton and accepted our lot. This is how democracy works. You will have to accept that the majority of Americans do not agree with you, and endure until next time. Of course I am riding a high right now with the Republican victory, but I am well aware that the people are fickle, and that this will not last. You should take comfort in that.

You probably endured really well because the country was actually making progress and thriving, for the first time in my lifetime.

[Don't panic]

I endured eight years under Clinton and accepted our lot. This is how democracy works. You will have to accept that the majority of Americans do not agree with you, and endure until next time.

just out of curiosity, what made eight years under Clinton so hard to endure other that he wasn't nominally a republican?

[blackfox]

This is called an unabashed attempt to save this thread from extinction. I would like to hear some more opinions on this subject from fellow reasonable citizens. Have you come to a state of acceptance and belief in the fairness of our democratic system?
I am not sure about the "fairness" of our system as it pertains to the Electoral College, nor am I foolish enough to believe that the Voting system as implemented is perfect. It obviously needs some work.

I would also like to see the "equal-time" provision be implemented, or some other way of dealing with all the money thrown into modern Elections. I would ban Political TV ads entirely. I have some issues with Network Coverage on Election night(s)...

I wish Americans would pay attention to Politics more often than every four years and become more engaged in Civics. I would like well-educated voters at the polls on the issues. I may not agree with someone's opinion/vote, but I can respect it/them if it was arrived at thoughtfully.

Despite all this, even though my candidate lost, I was surprised and happy that nothing went wrong last night, lawyers were not involved and most of all, that more people went out to vote, some waiting for hours in the hot sun or cold rain. I liked that a lot.

In some ways the system seems profoundly broken when you find that nearly 50% of the people voting lost. I feel that a multi-party system would probably be a better alternative, as it would aid in cooperation and cut down on disenfrachisement.

Also there is the issue of representation. It seems obvious that a (slim) majority, but a majority nonetheless, are conservative-minded.

Still, I am not so sure that Bush is truly representative of Conservatism, or Kerry of Liberalism. Voters were concerned about Terror and the Economy, and often chose on perceived character, not on ideology. I am not sure if that speaks of a damaged system or not...

[igucl]

To bousozoku

True enough. But, I hope you don't mean to imply that the recent downturn can be placed on anyone's shoulders, specifically this president's. No one could foresee the impact of Sep. 11. Also, as any good economist would tell you, the economy works in cycles of growth and decline. Growth reaches a point where it is no longer sustainable, and then the inevitable decline comes. We are now on our way up again.

[igucl]

To blackfox:

I have to fully agree about the political TV ads. They have become nothing more than trashy propaganda with no value in adding legitimacy to our system.

[IJ Reilly]

True enough. But, I hope you don't mean to imply that the recent downturn can be placed on anyone's shoulders, specifically this president's. No one could foresee the impact of Sep. 11. Also, as any good economist would tell you, the economy works in cycles of growth and decline. Growth reaches a point where it is no longer sustainable, and then the inevitable decline comes. We are now on our way up again.

Only for certain people. If you're above the line, you are probably becoming more affluent; below it, and you're probably looking at declining wages and downward mobility. Far more people are below that line than above it. Very little of the current economic situation is attributable to 9-11, which did not even result in a recession. In fact it is connected to a long-term process of unequal wealth distribution that has only accelerated during the Bush years.

[igucl]

... and for every person who agrees with that analysis, there is also one who agrees with what I presented. The fact is we can't know for certain what leads to these waves. There are too many variables, and that is why it is too simplistic to blame Bush.

[IJ Reilly]

... and for every person who agrees with that analysis, there is also one who agrees with what I presented. The fact is we can't know for certain what leads to these waves. There are too many variables, and that is why it is too simplistic to blame Bush.

And a great many people believe Saddam was connected to 9-11 and WMDs were found in Iraq. We do know the facts about wealth distribution -- the process has been ongoing since the 1970s. At this point, anyone who doesn't accept that the middle class in this country is slipping simply isn't paying attention or doesn't want to know. The evidence is more than ample, it's overwhelming. We should not be debating this at all, we should be discussing what if anything can be done to address it.

[dsharits]

I'll tell you what, I have never been more proud to be an American than this morning when I woke up to find the awesome news that the election went the right way.

Daniel

[igucl]

I know that feeling, dsharits.

[bousozoku]

To bousozoku

True enough. But, I hope you don't mean to imply that the recent downturn can be placed on anyone's shoulders, specifically this president's. No one could foresee the impact of Sep. 11. Also, as any good economist would tell you, the economy works in cycles of growth and decline. Growth reaches a point where it is no longer sustainable, and then the inevitable decline comes. We are now on our way up again.

The economy was in a steady decline since Bush filed papers for his candidacy--he even said so on camera. I won't say that it's all the president's fault but a goofy policy such as giving tax relief when the budget couldn't afford it didn't help things.

As I see things, we're back to how things were in the late 1970s and it's going to be the better part of another 10 years before we see good times again, unless there is major change in the government. Unemployment is much worse than the reports would imply because the reports only mention new claims, but not the people no longer eligible nor the people working minimum wage jobs down from $50,000 per year careers. It's a lot like the Macintosh market share. Apple may not have as much of a market share in a certain time period because another company is selling more of a model--it has nothing to do with installed base or the units sold.

[Chip NoVaMac]

no.

But there are many of us that are truly looking at that option. My lover and I talked about this for a good portion of the day today. We just don't see how we can fit in this nations idea of how we should/need to be governed.

The vote yesterday is more than the next 4 years. It is about the next generation or two. Roe v. Wade is history in a couple of years. And possibly our rights and liberty.

This beyond not liking the choice of president. I did not vote for Reagan or GHWB, yet I supported them despite their choices. But to have GWB look me in the eye and lie about the need for war, to look me in the eye and say that my $300 tax cut is worth the deficit, or to look me in the eye and say that my lover and I have no rights in "his" America is getting too much.

1000 men and women of the US military have given their lives for "freedom". Yet we are denied seeing their final homecoming. Only because the truth is to hard to deal with. 100K+ have died in Iraq because we are bringing "freedom" to their land.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I'm feeling kind of ashamed of being a liberal today the way some of you are acting. Venting the rage and anger isn't going to help the cause. Be magnanimous in victory and gracious in defeat.

If only I had a nickel for every time a leftie has called Bush or America stupid today....

the 90's changed everything. And 9-11 more so.

As the post following yours said, we are at the lowest point in world acceptance. The current leaders have perverted the American name and ideals.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Never be ashamed of being an American.

You can be frustrated as much as you want or need to be but this is a good country, despite the idiots. Remember that there are idiots in other countries, too--they're not an exclusive to the U.S.A.

There have been times when I doubted why I had been brought to this country or how it would work out but I will never be ashamed of being an American.

I am ashamed. After yesterday, I have lost faith in the people.

That being said, how do the friends north of the border (Canada) feel about their nation and its direction? Are those of us that are so disgusted with the politics here misguided in our desires for a better place?

[Thomas Veil]

Wait a minute, let me see...

...Ignored 9/11 warning
+ attacked wrong country
+ 1,000 soldiers dead, 100,000 Iraqis dead
+ scary Patriot Act
+ tax cuts mostly for the wealthy
+ worst job creation record since Hoover
+ huge surplus turned into biggest deficit ever
+ pretend missile defense system
+ no-bid contracts to Halliburton
+ underfunded NCLB
+ keeping cheaper meds from seniors
+ gutted clean air standards
+ opposed the 9/11 commission
"proud to be an American"

Nope. Nope. Just doesn't add up. :confused:

[Chip NoVaMac]

Here is what is moving me right now. I am a republican. However, when Bill Clinton was elected, I was reserved to the fact that he is my President, and I will support him. He was my commander in chief when I was in the military. I actually voted for him in 96 because I did support him. I cannot understand how someone cannot have the opinion that they will disagree with the President, but, they are their President.

To say that you would leave the country, and to act like the world has come to an end does not make those that are moderate, or even right think that you are capable of supporting anything but your own view, and that, is narrow minded. I do not support Bush blindly, I disagree with him on many subjects, however, to say that we are stupid, is calling over 50 million Americans stupid. I just cannot buy that. We are divided, however, Bush won by a larger margin than any President in over 12 years.

Do not be ashamed of your countrymen, be proud. Be proud that they actually voted in this election. Close to 60% turnout! Are you kidding me! That is wonderful.

Do not insult your party, your candidate, and your causes by portraying yourself as a radical that incapable of working with the otherside.

This is all well and good. 4 years ago GWB promised that he would unite the nation. He divided it. Today he and his people are making the same promises. Just as he said that Iraq had WMD.

Unlike the 80's and 90's this election is not about 4 more years. It is about the next generation or two. 101K+ have died for a war that would land any other leader in the world in court as a war criminal.

The last time I felt this bad about an election was back when Reagan won twice. At that time I never considered as I am now, leaving the country that I have loved. This is not that GWB is president for another 4 years. It is about 20+ years of an electorate that seems not to care about the issues.

By the time I voted yesterday, it was taking on average 2 minutes and 15 to 30 seconds for a person to vote. We had the presidential and congressional race to vote for. As well as 2 Virginia Constitutional amendments and 4 Bond referendums. With our touch screen voting system, I was able to vote in 30 to 45 seconds. The people it seems did not care to research the issues before going to vote.

So you are saying that I should trust these idiots to have made the right choice?

[Chip NoVaMac]

It's bad sportsmanship. I'm sorry, but I don't like gloating winners, nor non-gracious losers. Life continues.

Sorry, but this is not some damn football game that people will forget by next week. Yesterday will affect us and the world for 20+ years. Not just the next four.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Really, it's not that some of us are considering leaving the country. It's that the country has left us.

Very well put. Wished I said that. And if you allow me, I will use this as my reasoning for the decision that my lover and I are now facing. The country left us, so we are considering leaving the country.

My Grandparents came to this country for the freedom and opportunity. In the last four years both seem to have been lost. I hurt with my choice ahead. I was raised as a "model" citizen. Voted in every election since turning of age in 1976. (I even worked on the Nixon '72 campaign.) That even counts the what seems to be monthly votes in Arlington TX in the early 80's. I write to my representatives on a regular basis. I still pause for the evening tattoo when I am on military base.

But I can not see myself staying in a country that fails to look deeply into the issues.

[Thomas Veil]

Sorry, but this is not some damn football game that people will forget by next week.
Thanks. And I wish I'd said that. I think I'll use that with everyone who wants me to chill out and get behind ol' George.

[angelneo]

Although I am not an american, this election seems to have a great impact on the rest of the world. I understand the feeling of helplessness and disappointment but I am not against or with anyone.

For those who are disappointed with the election result, I feel that those who are thinking of leaving the country or those who are getting all worked up and disappointed with the rest of america should re-direct their energy towards fighting to build a better america (constructively). Instead of giving up and crying out that americans are a disappointing lot, perhaps, you should stay on and try to make them see from your point of view. I cannot stress the term constructively enough as we can see from many examples of countries torn from inside out.

[thatwendigo]

To OutThere761: Good Riddance!

I endured eight years under Clinton and accepted our lot. This is how democracy works. You will have to accept that the majority of Americans do not agree with you, and endure until next time. Of course I am riding a high right now with the Republican victory, but I am well aware that the people are fickle, and that this will not last. You should take comfort in that.

While I'm sure that eight years of realtive economic prosperity and tolerance for other viewpoints was terrible to "endure," comparing the Clinton administration to the Bush administration is completely unfair in a number of ways. Firstly, Clinton spent most of his term opposed by a Republican Congress that he had to make deals and compromise with, rather than just pushing his agenda onto a scared America. It might also be worth pointing out that Clinton actuall made some effort to balance the budget and begin paying down the national debt, though I'm not one of the people who will wholly blame Bush for the economic downturn after his term was over. Another enormous difference is Clinton's attempts to involve and support the international community when he felt it necessary to act outside of our borders, which Bush has basically trampled and spat upon since day one.

Things that "won't last" that this administration helped usher in:
The USA Patriot act
Over 1000 US soldiers dead
Over 100,000 Iraqis dead
The DMCA
Changes to corporate tax code that favor big business and special interests
Counting federal assistance and savings accounts for tuition as "income" for tax purposes
Opposing the 9/11 Commission
Attacking their own experts when they become whistleblowers
Use of 1984-like doublespeak to name bills something they're not
Bans on civil liberties for minority groups (if you think gay marriage is where it ends, just watch)
Complete wallpapering of ignoring al-Zarqaw in order to pursue Iraq where, where al-Zarqaw is not a serious problem
Pre-emptive war on false premises
Unconstitutional war without a declaration in Congress (That he has a Congress on his side doesn't have anything to do with this... :rolleyes: )
Creation of the Office of Faith Based Initiatives
Repealing the need for charities to meet federal guidelines of tolerance in order to receive federal money, though said office
Granting money to already tax-exempt church organizations for construction, as long as they allow some part of the building for secular use, like a gym

This is about more than just sucking it up and moving on. Bush and his cronies are killing America, one measure at a time, and they've got even better means to do it now than they ever have before.

I find it funny that those of us who oppose him can rattle off our reasons, but the Bush supporters keep shying away from stating theirs. Afraid it'll show just how selfish you guys are?

[OutThere]

Thank you for the replies, I felt that I should make a comment after reading all of the responses to my post. I feel that the Bush administration has very severe flaws in several departments, which each interact, to form a completely flawed final product. A flawed foreign policy that has resulted in an incredibly expensive "Neo-Vietnam" in the making has put an incredible strain on the nation's economic backbone, resulting in a general economic downturn. The flaws in domestic economic policy have also resulted in extreme strain on the economy. In the past when a war has been going on governments have rationed gasoline, sold war bonds, and kept the country informed that the economy was suffering to help fight the war. The current administration has deceived the populous into believing that the economy is doing well, and that the policies are working through repeated tax breaks. When your family comes upon hard times, and also has to make a big investment, do you start giving away your paycheck to your co-workers? Do you tell them that they need it more than you do? Once you've given it away, do you go out and refinance your house to pay the bills? I surely hope not.

[Hoef]

Wasn't there a great master plan that extents beyond these silly four year elections and governments? Illuminati was mentioned before :p Just whishing the return of Fox Mulder.

[Hoef]

Very well put. Wished I said that. And if you allow me, I will use this as my reasoning for the decision that my lover and I are now facing. The country left us, so we are considering leaving the country.

Do you know how hard it is for a non US citizen to stay here in the US post 9/11.... ? Lets switch: you go to Holland, that got shocked couple a days ago by the brutal murder of a cinematographer (by some fundamentalist --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3980371.stm), and I'll take your green card and work.

[Ugg]

Not sure how anything I said confers unto Americans "some special status," as you put it. Could you explain?

"Love and respect thy neighbor" does not imply that you have to agree with your neighbor 100% of the time. There will be disagreements from time to time. Right now (if we believe the international polls cited earlier) the majority of Europeans do not agree with the majority of Americans on a variety of issues. So be it. I don't believe that will always be the case, nor do I believe it is impossible for the U.S. and our historical allies to find some common ground but right now it seems Americans and Europeans "agree to disagree."

In regards to what "The Guardian" did, I can't see it as anything other than a publicity stunt on the part of a newspaper. I realize the American election has impact all over the world and I have no problem with anyone from anywhere engaging me in a discussion in a variety ways (such as we do in on-line forums) but don't try to pretend there is a "noble" motive behind what that newspaper did. They wanted publicity and they got it. I'm merely pointing out that some Americans reacted negatively to the whole thing.


As I said, my post shows there is a lack of understanding and an American could just as easily be asking of Europeans (for example) why they don't understand the motives for his vote. I really don't want to get into a discussion which I had a hundred times before yesterday, but I could summarize by telling you that I am registered as an "independent" and my votes yesterday on national, state, and local (yes, we actually vote on more than just the presidency) issues cut across "party lines." As for the presidential race, I did ask myself if I really thought Kerry would do better in the next four years based on what he had to say. I wasn't convinced. Simple as that.

You seemed to imply that Americans are above being advised by those outside our borders and that somehow this is a good and unique thing. It's a sign of isolationism IMO not a positive inidication of our specialness. I agree that it is impossible to know what it is like to be an American and to divine why so many voted why they did. However, most of Europe was plagued by terrorism throughout the 60s, 70s, and 80s. THEY know what it is like, they have experience while we don't. Our (fortunate) lack of experience led to our overreaction in regards to 9 11 and to embracing a Hollywood stereotype for a president rather than a true statesman who might well have been able to avoid the Iraq war and its horrifying aftermath. I think the world would be a safer place had we listened to those abroad rather than sticking our heads in the sand.

Until that American arrogance disappears from our psyche, I doubt that those differences will be lessened. We have a leader whose middle name could well be arrogant and while the world has forgiven us a lot, they will not sacrifice their pride to a 3rd rate cowboy with no grace, speaking skills or ability to do anything other than impress foreign leaders with his "ranch". I fear it will be a long time before the US is viewed as anything other than an angry child in desperate need of a time out.

I've been a regular reader of "the Guardian" since the 2000 elections. The Guardian has consistently delivered content that is simply unavailable in the US. Content that has been censored by the US media for either political reasons or the fact that they know Americans simply don't care about what's happening in the rest of the world. Even if the letter writing campaign was a stunt, I believe that its origins were in the heartfelt desire to communicate to Americans that who we elect affects not only us but the rest of the world. The negative reactions, one of which began with, "You limey a$$holes...." just go to prove how out of touch so much of America is with the rest of the world and underline the arrogance that so many feel towards the old world.

In all the forums I read and contribute to, there is a phenomenal understanding of US issues by non-Americans, the press in most countries is continually reporting on what's happening in the US and in other countries, whereas the US press only reports on the sensational issues abroad. You seem to be saying that if only those outside of the US truly understood the issues.... I disagree, for the most part they do understand and that is why the choice of gw is so bewildering to so much of the world. I could understand your position if it weren't for the fact that the only country that showed overwhelming support for gw was Israel.

[Ugg]

Wait a minute, let me see...

...Ignored 9/11 warning
+ attacked wrong country
+ 1,000 soldiers dead, 100,000 Iraqis dead
+ scary Patriot Act
+ tax cuts mostly for the wealthy
+ worst job creation record since Hoover
+ huge surplus turned into biggest deficit ever
+ pretend missile defense system
+ no-bid contracts to Halliburton
+ underfunded NCLB
+ keeping cheaper meds from seniors
+ gutted clean air standards
+ opposed the 9/11 commission
"proud to be an American"

Nope. Nope. Just doesn't add up. :confused:

You forgot to add that federal spending INCREASED 15% under gw & co.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Do you know how hard it is for a non US citizen to stay here in the US post 9/11.... ? Lets switch: you go to Holland, that got shocked couple a days ago by the brutal murder of a cinematographer (by some fundamentalist --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3980371.stm), and I'll take your green card and work.

This news is shocking, but my assumption is that Holland is more tolerant than most in the US. Yes, your taxes are high; but my lover would not have had to decide on what bills to pay in order to get medical care. Nor did Holland invade a nation on false pretenses.

I will say that being 45+ years old, I don't have the time left to wait for things to get better. I would gladly swap with you. I guess it is a matter of the grass being greener on the other-side.

[Desertrat]

"Only for certain people. If you're above the line, you are probably becoming more affluent; below it, and you're probably looking at declining wages and downward mobility. Far more people are below that line than above it. Very little of the current economic situation is attributable to 9-11, which did not even result in a recession. In fact it is connected to a long-term process of unequal wealth distribution that has only accelerated during the Bush years."

IJ, the downward-mobility trend for salaried or hourly folks began back in the early 1970s. While there may have been "acceleration" during the Bush years, I don't see any more causal relationship there than during the Clinton years. IMO, your "line" is moving up and will continue to do so. I don't see anything Bush (or Kerry) could do to change it.

I sorta shook my head over the 1992 Clinton-lies ("Worst economy in 30 years", for example) but accepted his election as "That's the way it went; sobeit." I've listened to or read an incredible amount of plain old BS from both campaign groups, this go-'round. Both camps splattered enough BS around to end the agribusiness need for ammonium nitrate.

So Kerry lost? Well, tough. Live with it.

Don't want to be here, to be an American? Hey, don't let the doorknob catch you in a vital spot...Not that I think very many people have what it takes to actually pick up and go; remember 2000? All that boo-hooing about leaving the country? How many of Balwin's Buddies actually went?

The nation has survived a whole bunch of bad presidencies. This election is no less "survivable" than any other...

Y'all know from nuthin' 'bout hard times. You probably oughta go talk to some folks in their late 70s or in their 80s. Learn something.

:), 'Rat

[Chip NoVaMac]

Although I am not an american, this election seems to have a great impact on the rest of the world. I understand the feeling of helplessness and disappointment but I am not against or with anyone.

For those who are disappointed with the election result, I feel that those who are thinking of leaving the country or those who are getting all worked up and disappointed with the rest of america should re-direct their energy towards fighting to build a better america (constructively). Instead of giving up and crying out that americans are a disappointing lot, perhaps, you should stay on and try to make them see from your point of view. I cannot stress the term constructively enough as we can see from many examples of countries torn from inside out.

For some of us, we have been trying for 20+ years. And some of us are getting to point that we want to enjoy what is left of our lives. The vote yesterday will have an impact for 20+ years.

[Ugg]

Do you know how hard it is for a non US citizen to stay here in the US post 9/11.... ? Lets switch: you go to Holland, that got shocked couple a days ago by the brutal murder of a cinematographer (by some fundamentalist --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3980371.stm), and I'll take your green card and work.

So, why is that you want to be here? I think we should here your POV just as much as anyone else's. There's so many vitriolic responses here that it would be nice to hear from a non-American living in the US.


BTW, I'd live in the Netherlands in a heartbeat. It's not perfect but when it comes to human rights, compassion and the right to be who one is without apologizing to the state then The Netherlands along with most of Europe, wins hands down.

[Ugg]

Y'all know from nuthin' 'bout hard times. You probably oughta go talk to some folks in their late 70s or in their 80s. Learn something.

:), 'Rat

So would you rather that we all take four years of US Depression/WWII 101 rather than four years of college? I've listened to my 70something parents and 90something grandparents talk about how harsh it all was. One thing I know beyond a doubt is that they wouldn't wish that experience on anyone. And all this, "If you only knew what it was like in my day" doesn't get anyone anywhere. What is important is to understand the reasons for the Depression and that it was the buildup for the war that brought us out of it and set us on a path of 60 years of imperialistic policy that is reaching its zenith now.

So, what caused the Depression and do you see any parallels between today and the first two decades of the 20th Century? If you do then you'd damn well better hope that the current yahoo is restrained as quickly as possible 'cause the results won't be pretty if he isn't.

[2jaded2care]

Mactastic, I disagree with you politically, but you are a class act. I have much more respect for a gracious loser than a gloating winner. No, it isn't a football game, but you have to appreciate the parallels... Especially the facts that there's always another game, and you should treat your opponent as you would have him or her treat you.

On another note... I might very well be wrong about this, but I suspect that the French, for example, might not be very receptive to my trying to urge them to vote any particular way in their elections. That old thing about "who knows better than me what's best for me?". Of course, admittedly, people don't always pick the best thing for themselves, either.

Mactastic has the right attitude IMO -- take a defeat and work harder next time to make sure the outcome's different. But certainly, if anyone truly feels irreconcilably betrayed by the U.S., for heaven's sake spare both of us the misery of your presence.

[Dave the Great]

I am thoroughly ashamed to be the citizen of a country ...

wha wha wha

The world's tiniest violin is playing for you right now

[Mr_Ed]

You seemed to imply that Americans are above being advised by those outside our borders and that somehow this is a good and unique thing. It's a sign of isolationism IMO not a positive inidication of our specialness. I agree that it is impossible to know what it is like to be an American and to divine why so many voted why they did. However, most of Europe was plagued by terrorism throughout the 60s, 70s, and 80s. THEY know what it is like, they have experience while we don't. Our (fortunate) lack of experience led to our overreaction in regards to 9 11 and to embracing a Hollywood stereotype for a president rather than a true statesman who might well have been able to avoid the Iraq war and its horrifying aftermath. I think the world would be a safer place had we listened to those abroad rather than sticking our heads in the sand.

You are saying the U.S. embraced a Hollywood stereotype because of our overreaction to 9/11 instead of someone who might have been able to avoid the Iraq war . . . GWB was elected in 2000. At least get your timeline right :) We obviously disagree on how "safe" the world would be under a different administration. No point arguing about that.

Until that American arrogance disappears from our psyche, I doubt that those differences will be lessened. We have a leader whose middle name could well be arrogant and while the world has forgiven us a lot, they will not sacrifice their pride to a 3rd rate cowboy with no grace, speaking skills or ability to do anything other than impress foreign leaders with his "ranch". I fear it will be a long time before the US is viewed as anything other than an angry child in desperate need of a time out.

I've been a regular reader of "the Guardian" since the 2000 elections. The Guardian has consistently delivered content that is simply unavailable in the US. Content that has been censored by the US media for either political reasons or the fact that they know Americans simply don't care about what's happening in the rest of the world. Even if the letter writing campaign was a stunt, I believe that its origins were in the heartfelt desire to communicate to Americans that who we elect affects not only us but the rest of the world. The negative reactions, one of which began with, "You limey a$$holes...." just go to prove how out of touch so much of America is with the rest of the world and underline the arrogance that so many feel towards the old world.

You talk about American "arrogance" and you refer to some of the responses "The Guardian" received from their "letter writing campaign." If Americans were to write citizens of, let's say, France en masse and urge them to vote a certain way, what do you suppose will be the first thing to come out of the mouths of French citizens? That's right: Arrogant Americans!! And you know what? They would be right.

In all the forums I read and contribute to, there is a phenomenal understanding of US issues by non-Americans, the press in most countries is continually reporting on what's happening in the US and in other countries, whereas the US press only reports on the sensational issues abroad. You seem to be saying that if only those outside of the US truly understood the issues.... I disagree, for the most part they do understand and that is why the choice of gw is so bewildering to so much of the world. I could understand your position if it weren't for the fact that the only country that showed overwhelming support for gw was Israel.

In my posts I talked about neither side (Americans, Europeans) understanding each other's motives/motivations. This is not the same as understanding the issues. Anyone can get a rundown on the issues on a political agenda and attempt to understand them. That does not mean they would have a clue as to how anyone but themselves would vote on that issue or why. If they understood why they would not be "bewildered" as you say they are. Likewise, if Americans had a better understanding of what Europeans value most and how they make their political decisions, they might not scratch their heads and wonder why Europeans react the way they do to our electoral decisions.

On a more practical note about the foreign press, I'll point this out: If the foreign press reports about American political issues in detail, it is because their subscriber/reader base wants to read about it. Chances are those readers know about the issues in their own countries (or region), and possibly the U.S. if they are interested. I seriously doubt many of them are up on the political scene in say, Costa Rica, or Peru, or the Dominican Republic. With that in mind, what countries do you propose the American press should report about in detail? How would you prioritize a "required reading list" for the American public? The fact is that those Americans who want a different perspective (such as yourself reading "The Guardian") or reporting on some specific region already go to alternate sources. Those who are not interested, do not go looking for foreign news any more than the average European would go hunting for news about the Dominican Republic.

My first post illustrated that there is lack of understanding on both sides and attempted to provide someone reading it (in the U.S. or abroad) with a little bit of insight into the way many Americans see some things (international polls, letter writing campaigns, etc.) I pointed out that "The Guardian" deal was probably not a good idea based on the reactions I have seen. You said that I seemed "to be conferring onto Americans some special status that doesn't exist anywhere else in the world". I asked how I did that and then you said that I "seemed to imply that Americans are above being advised by those outside our borders and that somehow this is a good and unique thing" which doesn't really answer my question since it prompts me to ask you to explain what part of my posts states or implies either of the statements/implications that you so casually attribute to me. Now to top it all off, it seems that I have stated a "position" on something that makes Israel's support of GWB relevant to the discussion. So what exactly is that position that you speak of? And please, don't put any more words in my mouth when you reply.

[Hoef]

So, why is that you want to be here? I think we should here your POV just as much as anyone else's. There's so many vitriolic responses here that it would be nice to hear from a non-American living in the US.

Lets put it this way, the current administration made it a lot less pleasant to be here (besides getting harder to get into this country in the first place). Still the benefits (tax, financial freedom, space, beautiful country side, no social control, you actually can be different around here (east coast though)) outweigh the setbacks for now. It is hard to explain was it is like living in Holland but it ain't your sweet little country from the 50ies anymore.

It must be the same for you Americans living in Europe as for me living here ... Out of cultural context and ignorant of the underlying issues (which makes it perfect living to me). Canada or Australia suddenly look temping, lets go!

[Desertrat]

Ugg, to me it's an issue of perspective. I get a bit fed up with those who refuse to learn history, in order that there can be some comparison between the problems of today--and the benefits--and the problems endured in the past.

To me, the claims and counter-claims during this last campaign, and the boo-hooing here about TEOTWAWKI are balderdash and tommyrot. IMO, the emotions are greater but the problems are not.

The same predictions of disaster were made when "That Man" was elected in 1932. Same for Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton...

IMO, the divisions during the Vietnam years were far more serious than those of today: Then, I saw them as real; still do; today's nattering seems more like that of spoiled children--and both political parties are equally guilty.

So, no, I don't want you or anybody else to actually experience some of the horribles of the past. I just want folks to be aware, somehow, that today's world is pretty danged easy, by comparison.

'Rat

[pseudobrit]

Ugg, to me it's an issue of perspective. I get a bit fed up with those who refuse to learn history, in order that there can be some comparison between the problems of today--and the benefits--and the problems endured in the past.

To me, the claims and counter-claims during this last campaign, and the boo-hooing here about TEOTWAWKI are balderdash and tommyrot. IMO, the emotions are greater but the problems are not.

The same predictions of disaster were made when "That Man" was elected in 1932. Same for Nixon, Carter, Reagan, Clinton...

IMO, the divisions during the Vietnam years were far more serious than those of today: Then, I saw them as real; still do; today's nattering seems more like that of spoiled children--and both political parties are equally guilty.

So, no, I don't want you or anybody else to actually experience some of the horribles of the past. I just want folks to be aware, somehow, that today's world is pretty danged easy, by comparison.

'Rat

True.

Many seem to have forgotten, never understood or never learned that in the 'Nam years, our country was on the doorstep of a full-blown revolution.

Which is another reason why I was so disgusted by the ease with which people were willing to accept Kerry's Vietnam anti-war activity as anti-American activity. I kept thinking, do they know how close we were to anarchy because of that war? Have they forgotten? Did they never learn?

[Jovian9]

I am thoroughly ashamed to be the citizen of a country that elected George W. Bush for president. I am unable to comprehend the immense stupidity of this country's citizens who voted for George W. Bush.

I am not ashamed to be American or a citizen here. But I would like to apologize to the rest of the world. Remember that most of us did not choose Bush in 2000 b/c we did not like him and almost half of us here in the U.S. hate him now. Please hang with us for 4 more years......hopefully our Presidential Candidates in '08 will be worth a s..t. And hopefully there will still be a healthy world to live in by '08. Hopefully the damage we inflict outside of the U.S. (Iraq, Iran?) will be minimal, but I'm sure the damage here will be great:
Goodbye Blue Sky (environment, Alaska)
Goodbye United Nations
Goodbye Roe v. Wade
Goodbye Stem Cell Research
Goodbye Economy
Goodbye Social Security
Goodbye Social Services
Hello Draft
Hello more expensive Pharmacy Drugs and Health Insurance
Hello 21st Century McCarthyism
Hello Oil
Goodbye Friends of America

[OutThere]

...I'm sure the damage here will be great:
Goodbye Blue Sky (environment, Alaska)
Goodbye United Nations
Goodbye Roe v. Wade
Goodbye Stem Cell Research
Goodbye Economy
Goodbye Social Security
Goodbye Social Services
Hello Draft
Hello more expensive Pharmacy Drugs and Health Insurance
Hello 21st Century McCarthyism
Hello Oil
Goodbye Friends of America

I couldn't have put it better. Every six months with the Bush administration is a step backwards in time 20 years. All of the things in this list are things have been sought for years, as progress towards a better nation.

The environment and oil/energy concerns have been moving ahead since the seventies (energy crisis)

The draft has been gone since after Vietnam

McCarthyism was battled against for years until the people finally realized how wrong it was. The salem witch trials are the same thing, and its all happen again, originally it was witches, then it was commies, now its arabs.

Roe vs. Wade has been fought and battled and has eased in the direction of progress, of giving people a choice in life. Soon we will step back in time to covert, clothes hanger abortions and secret abortion clinics. The abortions won't stop by being banned, they will just go underground.

Bush administration constantly steps backwards on their policies towards the environment, moving backwards towards an age where pollution was not realized to be a problem, where industry was more important than the planet on which we all live.

Stem Cell research could save hundreds of thousands from horrible diseases and afflictions, but the Bush administration doesn't want it, once more favoring the backwards approach, and ignoring the technology that has been developed and researched in modern day medecin. Bush will regret his decisions if anyone in his family develops parkinsons, alzheimers or diabetes.

Every step along the way in the past four years has been a step in the wrong direction, moving away from the progress that was once regarded as the 21st Century. We are sliding backwards, away from the goals that our ancestors worked so hard to achieve.