NHL Lockout

[makisushi]

Anybody else here care about the NHL Lockout?

[takao]

Anybody else here care about the NHL Lockout?

what's that ?
(which means perhaps: no)

[reckless_0001]

Darn Rights...

Hockey! Hockey! Hockey! Where are you Hockey!?! Hockkk-eyyyy!

[pseudobrit]

Anybody else here care about the NHL Lockout?

I pray for Gary Bettman's death.

[emw]

I've never been a huge hockey fan, but I care simply because it is another demonstration of the greed in today's sports. These guys are getting paid phenomenal amounts of money, and still they are not satisfied.

But will it matter 2 or 3 years from now, probably not. I remember all these people swearing off baseball after the strike, and now people don't even remember it, and we're paying players in 100's of MILLIONS of dollars.

So do I care? No, I'd rather watch the minor league Wolves play in Chicago, since they actually win now and then, as opposed to the Blackhawks.

[Inkmonkey]

Yes I am quite sad. Worst part is it looks like we are no where close to closing the issues at hand. I seriously doubt there will be hockey this year.

[reckless_0001]

Last I remember NHL hockey players got pay significantly less than NBA, NFL, and MLb players.. I could be wrong though.

[iMeowbot]

Meh. I can't even remember the last time Dabroons were really interesting.

[emw]

Last I remember NHL hockey players got pay significantly less than NBA, NFL, and MLb players.. I could be wrong though.

You are correct - the highest paid player in the NHL makes $11M, in the NBA $28M, in MLB $22.5M.

But the minimum salary for NHL appears to be higher ($400K) than MLB (~$300K) and NBA (~$366) for 2003-4, the last year I can find salary data for the NHL.

Thankfully I don't have to worry about struggling along on such paltry wages. Peasants. :rolleyes: ;)

[Koodauw]

Ill miss it come playoff time

[makisushi]

Yes I am quite sad. Worst part is it looks like we are no where close to closing the issues at hand. I seriously doubt there will be hockey this year.
They don't even have any meetings scheduled to talk about the issues!
The way this is going, I could see the NHL (National Hockey League) dissolving, and another league forming.

[jdechko]

Ill miss it come playoff time

I miss it now! Fox Sports Net actually played a replay of a Nash/SJ game the other day and I got really excited about it. Actually, though the ECHL (Gwinnett Gladiators) plays about 20 minutes from where I live, so hopefully I will get my hockey fix from them. Going to an ECHL game is cheaper anyway - $18/ticket, lower level, row J, Blue line, Penalty Box side. :cool:

[Cursor]

Last I remember NHL hockey players got pay significantly less than NBA, NFL, and MLb players.. I could be wrong though.

Yeah, but hockey brings in less revenue than all of the other major league sports. The real problem is that the NHL is constantly losing revenue as a whole. Businesses can't operate if they are consistently taking losses year after year. Hockey is the least popular among the major leagues, but the players want the same kind of salaries. :o

[Inkmonkey]

Yeah, but hockey brings in less revenue than all of the other major league sports. The real problem is that the NHL is constantly losing revenue as a whole. Businesses can't operate if they are consistently taking losses year after year. Hockey is the least popular among the major leagues, but the players want the same kind of salaries. :o

Well said. The NHL has been so busy with trying to bring hockey to the masses (the USA) that they've lost focus on running a proper business. Based on the ratings of hockey games in the US it will likely never be as popular as the NBA, MLB or NFL. And as a result they should never demand the kind of salaries that those other sports provide.

[question fear]

sigh.
yea....it all sucks. but i wish i could just turn on the tv and randomly catch a game or two...god i love hockey.
:(

[filmcutter]

at first it was just an annoyance. Now that baseball is over and after the elections, I really am feeling major depression and withdrawals without hockey. We have a decent minor league team, but it just ain't the same.

No "pro" athlete works harder than hockey players. And there is no sport that has the intensity, speed and excitement as a pro hockey game (you can argue all you want, I will never concede).

The silver lining in it all would be if a new league is formed, or if existing teams relocate, we're in a good position to get a major league team no that Paul Allen no longer controls our "NHL caliber" arena!

Here's to hoping a resumption of the season after the new year!

[MacNut]

Screw hockey, I'm waiting for the college basketball season to start. Go Uconn.

[MacNut]

The problem with the NHL is that the season goes to long, I don't like watching hockey in the middle of June when the season should be over by April. They need to cut the season down so it doesn't overlap with baseball.

[wdlove]

I don't really care about Hockey either. I do feel sorry to the working man in this situation. The vendors and rink staff that get minimum wage are the ones suffering. Without the fans none of the sport figures or owners would receive their outrageous amount of money.

[Inkmonkey]

The problem with the NHL is that the season goes to long, I don't like watching hockey in the middle of June when the season should be over by April. They need to cut the season down so it doesn't overlap with baseball.

Maybe the baseball season is too long...
;)

Either way, the length of the season has nothing to do with the current labor dispute.

[Cursor]

I don't really care about Hockey either. I do feel sorry to the working man in this situation. The vendors and rink staff that get minimum wage are the ones suffering. Without the fans none of the sport figures or owners would receive their outrageous amount of money.

I second that! Owners AND players are too hard headed to realize that they aren't the only people to be affected by this lock-out. They can hold out for how-ever long it lasts, but what about the sportsbars next to these arenas, or the vendors inside them. Sure, there is the NBA in most of these cities, but hockey is a huge revenue generator for these places, because it lasts 80+ games and 8 months. What ever happened to the new revamped WHA? That looks like it's never gonna get off the ground! :rolleyes:

[sigamy]

"Heeee shoots and scoressss!"

"Great balls of fire"

"Oh, look out Loretta"

"Scratch my back with a hacksaw"

We need a hockey deal so I can watch Mario's last few years. Only good thing about the lockout is that I'm saving $180 on NHL Center Ice.

Let's Go Pens!

[trebblekicked]

"Heeee shoots and scoressss!"

"Great balls of fire"

"Oh, look out Loretta"

"Scratch my back with a hacksaw"


"get in the fast lane grandma, the bingo game is ready to roll"

"he beats him like a rented mule"

mike langue. i miss him.

i'm with p'brit. bettman must die.

[Cursor]

It's common knowledge that this was the Flyers' year! Saw Game 6 from the '74 Cup on last night on Sportschannel. Even though it was 30 years ago, it still was a great feeling seeing that cup in the old Spectrum.

[wrc fan]

I've watched a couple college hockey games on CSTV. They were fun to watch, but not nearly the caliber of pro hockey. But on the bright side, I don't have to see Peter Forsberg this year (every single game telivised on ESPN in the West coast is either a Colorado or Detroit game), and hopefully he'll never be back. I just hope the NHL is back next year, so I can go to games in Boston.

[rickvanr]

Maybe the baseball season is too long...
;)

Either way, the length of the season has nothing to do with the current labor dispute.

EXACTLY. You can not argue that the hockey season is too long compared to baseball... NHL hockey -> 82 games... MLB -> 160ish games...

Also, nothing beats the playoffs in hockey, nothing... In baseball they made a big deal about schilling playing with a bloody ankle... look what Joe Thorton played through last year with the Bruins, hockey players are tough..

The biggest concern I have about the lockout is that if it lasts long enough NHL players will not be able to partake in the Olympics... and I quite enjoyed watching Canada kick butt at the last one, and in the World Cup


ALSO, I wouldn't rest all of the blame on Bettman... half maybe... other half goes to the NHLPA... some negotiations need to be started, ASAP

[reckless_0001]

Come back hockey...

[MacNut]

NEW YORK -- In another sign the NHL season is slipping away, the league canceled its All-Star Game because of the lockout on Wednesday.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=1915318

[MacNut]

EXACTLY. You can not argue that the hockey season is too long compared to baseball... NHL hockey -> 82 games... MLB -> 160ish games...


Im not saying 82 games is a lot, I'm saying don't play long into June. The season should start earlier and end earlier.

[molcas&e'sdad]

It's a pretty big deal in Minnesota. However, it benefits the T-Wolves (i.e., the NBA's Minnesota Timberwolves), who frequently compete with Wild fans for spectators.

[BRM]

It is going to be a long and sad winter. Unless you live in Europe. Only a handfull of players have stayed in North America. Most Americans miss out on a very exciting sport. I always end up yelling at my TV when I watch hockey, when I watch baseball, I usually fall asleep. The closest hockey I now get is ECHL, GO GULLS!

[MacNut]

Im not saying that hockey isn't exciting or uninteresting but I didn't really follow the sport when we had a team why should I really care about it now that every team in the Northeast sucks. And the league has not made a good marketing pitch for why I should be interested in it besides watching the Stanley Cup Playoffs that run to long and I only watch the last 2 games of a close series anyways. :rolleyes:

[wrc fan]

Im not saying that hockey isn't exciting or uninteresting but I didn't really follow the sport when we had a team why should I really care about it now that every team in the Northeast sucks. And the league has not made a good marketing pitch for why I should be interested in it besides watching the Stanley Cup Playoffs that run to long and I only watch the last 2 games of a close series anyways. :rolleyes:

Every teams in the Northeast sucks? Hm... so being the division with the most teams that made it into the playoffs means it sucks? The division with the most teams with 100 or more points? I can understand saying Buffalo sucks, but Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, and Boston are good teams.

[MacNut]

You forgot to mention the New York Rangers. :eek:

[rickvanr]

Im not saying 82 games is a lot, I'm saying don't play long into June. The season should start earlier and end earlier.

Just as baseball shouldn't go into September or October when hockey starts... if hockey should end earler, so should baseball

[pivo6]

It's a pretty big deal in Minnesota. However, it benefits the T-Wolves (i.e., the NBA's Minnesota Timberwolves), who frequently compete with Wild fans for spectators.

As another resident in the state of hockey, we also have 4 Div 1 college programs, and the state tournament is as popular as high school football is in other states.

There are so many people to blame, I wouldn't know where to start.

[aloofman]

As a hockey fan, my biggest worry is that a protracted lockout that cancels the 2004-05 season will basically kill the NHL. Both the owners and players are in denial about their economic future. The NHL used to be the fourth major pro sports league after the NFL, NBA, and major league baseball. Now there's no use denying that NASCAR is way bigger. The NHL's national TV ratings in the U.S. are approaching those of MLS soccer and are regularly beaten by poker tournaments, golf, preseason baseball, and cable game shows. This is not a healthy league, no matter how you slice the numbers.

It might be true that the only hockey fans that are left are the die-hard fans that will come back when the NHL resumes again, meaning that there won't be much damage to the fan base. But I know of several casual hockey fans who didn't know there was a lockout going on and that games were being cancelled. These people aren't even thinking about hockey during what's supposed to be hockey season. If an entire season passes with no NHL hockey, there's a serious danger that the NHL will be reduced to the status of the arena football league: fun for its own fans, but no longer a major sport. Then there will be no big salaries OR big ticket sales.

[pseudobrit]

A couple things:

The lockout is purely Gary Bettman's fault. He expanded the league too much, too fast and too far. Such expansion MUST dilute the talent pool. It did. It also adds to the overall payroll. It also increases competition for the shrinking percentage of marquee players.

As a result, marginal players are being paid outrageously high salaries. What were career minor leaguers only ten years ago are now fourth liners on good teams and 2nd liners on expansion teams.

People will complain about salaries causing high ticket prices, but let's face it, ticket price has little to do with payroll. Ticket prices are set at a level the market will bear. If people stopped paying outrageous prices for tix, they'd lower them. Clearly the market will bear such prices (in most areas), so they will not go away unless the owners lose their business sense and begin operating their franchise like a charity.

Hockey players are paid a lot of money. They also average a 5 year career, suffer 82 games of brutal physical punishment a year and are highly committed to their work. They are not paid a salary for their work in the playoffs, which is typically their best and most sacrificial effort.

The average NHL salary is $1.8 million, but this figure has been inflated because of the increased bidding for the handful of marquee players. Instead, we must look at the median salary, which is around $1 million. Half the players in the league make less than a million.

The league says it's losing massive amounts of money and has put a lot of effort into making us think this is fact. This is a specious claim. How do we know? Exhibit A: The New York Rangers "lost" the most money. Anyone who knows sports know that NY teams never lose money, and the NYR surely did not, which means the NHL is allowing profits to be hidden in the bookkeeping practices.

Hockey cannot draw fans from non-traditional markets. We now know this. It has been an expensive lesson, and Gary Bettman must take the fall for teaching us.

[vwcruisn]

The problem with the NHL is that the season goes to long, I don't like watching hockey in the middle of June when the season should be over by April. They need to cut the season down so it doesn't overlap with baseball.

uggggh but baseball is so boring and uneventful. You sit there for hours and see action for about 10 mins total.

[wrc fan]

You forgot to mention the New York Rangers. :eek:

The Rangers are not in the Northeast, they are in the Eastern Division. I guess you were just saying in the Northeast United States? In that case then there are only the NJ Devils, Philly Flyers, and Bruins.

[jmsait19]

I agree with the people saying that this effects many more people than just the players and owners. Thats a bigger issue in my mind. Those people who can't afford to lose money.

I also do not understand why there are no meetings scheduled. How is this going to get resolved without any meetings happening?

It may be Bettman's fault but the players need to look at their league and try to help out a little bit by accepting some type of salary cap. They can't keep demanding the high salaries they do and expect the teams to make money when half the revenue goes into their pockets. So what, you only get 4 mil instead of 8 mil. Most people would crap themselves if they had that much money. Stop being ingrates. They fans are the reason this league survives, without them, there is no ticket revenue. Essentially, the fans are your bosses, and right now your bosses are pissed.

I can't type how much the bickering of million dollar athletes pisses me off. They receive millions to go out and have fun and play a game. AHH

[Abstract]

A couple things:

The lockout is purely Gary Bettman's fault. He expanded the league too much, too fast and too far. Such expansion MUST dilute the talent pool. It did. It also adds to the overall payroll. It also increases competition for the shrinking percentage of marquee players.

As a result, marginal players are being paid outrageously high salaries.

Exactly. Some of the competition to sign these "marquee" players by offering cash........well, there's no way many of these players would be considered "marquee" if the league was smaller. They're just marquee when compared to the large amount of mediocrity.
They work hard, and are generally more appreciative of their position in the community than NBA or NFL players. Many of these guys come back and play for their country, say Canada, tourney after tourney, year after year, decade after decade. In the NBA, one American Gold medal and they're gone. They've already experienced it, so why bother? Only Iverson and Duncan remain. I've got more respect for a guy like Iverson right now because as big a bad-ass as he is, he surely appreciates the opportunity he was given.

A larger portion of hockey players are actually quite decent guys who really do love and appreciate the game and choose to play in places like Toronto, Philly, Boston for less money simply because they love it.

Too bad this had to happen. Hockey is a good sport.

[salmon]

I miss it, but if they don't straighten out the problems when they sign a new agreement, I'm not going to watch again. I already gave up on baseball, because my beloved Expos got screwed (never watched since '94).

The NHL has been selling out its soul - it has caused the fans to have to think about the business side of things WAY too much. If I was interested in business, I'd watch business shows. It's pretty hard to be a fan of a small market team, knowing that your team will likely not ever have a chance at winning - this exacerbates the situation, of course.

And if they make the product great on the ice (by not diluting the talent pool so much), then future expansion will be guaranteed, nay demanded.

I want the NHL to be a place where teams compete based on the quality of their drafting, coaching, players and GM, not on revenues. I want every team to be on a roughly equal footing. If that means that the owners of the Rangers rake in tons of dough, so be it. And if that means we get rid of 10 teams in places that don't really support hockey, that's FANTASTIC.

IMO, a luxury tax isn't going to solve this at all, and I'm hoping for the salary cap. (That and a fan association boycott to demand tickets that are affordable for a family.) I don't want the players to get what they want, 'cause I think it will suck for the game. And if they do, I won't ever watch again.

Have a narrower salary band, and maybe offer huge bonuses for team awards, like playoff victories and stanley cups, and that will make it pretty competitive, methinks. :D

[pseudobrit]

I also do not understand why there are no meetings scheduled. How is this going to get resolved without any meetings happening?

They're waiting for arbitration. Neither side wants to blink before they can declare an impasse.

It may be Bettman's fault but the players need to look at their league and try to help out a little bit by accepting some type of salary cap. They can't keep demanding the high salaries they do and expect the teams to make money when half the revenue goes into their pockets.

If the teams didn't think the players were worth the high salaries, they wouldn't offer them. What would you say if, after you were offered a higher salary at another job, your current boss told you, "you know, we've been talking to our competitor and we're aware what they're offering you. We've decided that it's in our mutual interest to have a salary cap, and they can't afford you anymore. Oh, and by the way, neither can we anymore, so we're cutting your pay by 30%."

So what, you only get 4 mil instead of 8 mil.

There were exactly 38 players in the entire league making 8 million or more in 2002-2003.

10 of the 30 NHL teams are already paying out less than the proposed salary cap. A cap cannot help them save money. A cap mostly benefits wealthy markets. They'll save some money, and continue to reap high revenue. The smaller market teams will not save, but they'll have access to a few higher caliber players that will suddenly be affordable to them. So it's possible they'll make more money with increased ticket sales. Possible but not likely.

Most people would crap themselves if they had that much money.

Hockey players aren't most people. They're elite athletes with unique talents. See more below.

Stop being ingrates. They fans are the reason this league survives, without them, there is no ticket revenue. Essentially, the fans are your bosses, and right now your bosses are pissed.

It would be nice if it were that simple, wouldn't it? The fans don't factor into it directly. They are merely one facet of the revenue aspect of the complex business of sports.

I can't type how much the bickering of million dollar athletes pisses me off. They receive millions to go out and have fun and play a game. AHH

What about the bickering of billion dollar owners?

Hockey is fun, but if you do it 3x a week and add practices and training, it's a job. A very punishing, exhausting, painful life-threatening job.

How many people can write a bestselling novel?
Sell out a stadium for a concert?
Perform brain surgery?
Not many, eh? That's why they are paid so much. The rarer the talent, the higher the pay. In this case, only about 700 people out of 6 billion can cut the mustard. They deserve every penny.

To argue otherwise is communist.

[MacNut]

If you want hockey the minor league teams are still playing, thats all we have in Hartford after the Whalers left. I would rather watch football and college basketball that will carry me till spring training and the start of the baseball season.

[aloofman]

uggggh but baseball is so boring and uneventful. You sit there for hours and see action for about 10 mins total.

Don't blame a sport for your short attention span.

[jmsait19]

uggggh but baseball is so boring and uneventful. You sit there for hours and see action for about 10 mins total.

I love baseball with all my heart. Not a huge Bud Selig fan. BUT at least he got something done and avoided a work stoppage there.

What are the NFL's salary stats? Anybody know? They have a salary cap and no one is crying over there.

[rickvanr]

watching baseball is boring until the last 3 innings of a playoff game. In football (american football) its just always boring... and I don't have a short attention span... Basketball, Hockey, Football/ Soccer, and Lacrosse are all very exciting to watch...

Oh, and here is football salary stats from 2002...
http://www.theredzone.org/2002top_ten.asp

They make alot... around the same as hockey players... but you have to take into account football has alot more players on a team, and they have alot more revenues- tv contracts, more sponsors, and bigger stadiums

[MacNut]

How can you say football (real American football) is boring. If anything soccer is the dullest sport to watch aside from golf.

[maxterpiece]

I said this in a different thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1044540#post1044540) about the lockout and and I'll say it again:

The average hockey salary is about 1.8 million. The average NFL salary is about 1.2 million.
MLB averages 2.5 million, NBA averages 4.5 million.

This, however, all makes sense - it all has to do with popularity, the importance of team vs individual and simply the number of players on a roster. In the NFL there are only a few positions where players can make an impact on their own - it is more or less a team effort. This is why there is a lot of parity in the NFL and it is also why a team can go from good to bad so quickly. The talent may not change that much but a team can come together. The NBA, on the other hand, is a game that is dominated by individual creativity and athleticism. The individual matters more and can therefore demand more money. You also just require fewer players - the average NBA team only has like 8 players who play on a regular basis. NHL it is 10+ players, MLB it is like 15 and NFL it is 30+. There are more people to spread the money between. Now the NBA is seeing a little bit of a renaissance in terms of team play. New rules which allow zone defense in the nba make it harder for individual players to dominate a game. NBA teams like Utah, Denver and Memphis have responded to this by building teams that go 10 players deep, have no superstars and focus on playing as a team and maintaining high energy. These rules will make the average NBA salary drop. Although there is individual creativity in hockey (stick handling), there really aren't any hockey or football teams that win with two players (see the lakers). The MLB on the other hand, has always been a game of individual talent. It is the pitcher vs. the batter, one on one, and although the team element is very much there both in the clubhouse and defensively, the focus is the individual matchups.
Finally, hockey is just plain not very popular. For the same reason basketball has lost a bit of popularity, hockey has lost a lot. The sport has turned into a sport of superstars who don't play the team game, but unlike basketball where these individuals have the opportunity to do some amazing athletic and creative stunts, hockey is really only entertaining as a team game. This is why it is 1) necessary for hockey salaries to go down and 2) Essentially for hockey that the superstars fade away. I personally don't watch hockey anymore despite the fact that i very much enjoy playing it, and haven't been able to sit through an entire game since the mid 90s.

This lockout has been a long time coming.

[MacNut]

One problem with hockey is that its not backyard friendly. You can play baseball in the yard with friends, anyone can throw a football on the beach, and all you need to play basketball is a driveway and a hoop. What do you need to play hockey, ice, and not many people can afford a rink in their back yard.

[rickvanr]

How can you say football (real American football) is boring. If anything soccer is the dullest sport to watch aside from golf.

easily, american football is up there with paint drying and eggs hatching for me personally. The announcers overwhelm you with useless stats, and there are so many pauses and whistles... its not fluid enough of a sport...

[rickvanr]

One problem with hockey is that its not backyard friendly. You can play baseball in the yard with friends, anyone can throw a football on the beach, and all you need to play basketball is a driveway and a hoop. What do you need to play hockey, ice, and not many people can afford a rink in their back yard.

A) in the winter when hockey is played... it does get cold, and you can go in your backyard and play - if you own a hose. If not, walk 5-10 mins to a local ice rink and play...

and B) have you never heard of road hockey?!

[MacNut]

Hockey is obviously a Canadian sport and therefor the NHL should move the league to Canada to survive because I don't think the interest is there in mainstream America. And for the record we don't have that many outdoor rinks in the US so it is kind of hard to play the sport especially in warm weather climates were ice is only in the freezer.

[Inkmonkey]

Hockey is obviously a Canadian sport and therefor the NHL should move the league to Canada to survive because I don't think the interest is there in mainstream America. And for the record we don't have that many outdoor rinks in the US so it is kind of hard to play the sport especially in warm weather climates were ice is only in the freezer.

Great gorgeous gorillas! I'm all for moving the entire league to Canada!!Winnipeg could get their team back.

[vwcruisn]

easily, american football is up there with paint drying and eggs hatching for me personally. The announcers overwhelm you with useless stats, and there are so many pauses and whistles... its not fluid enough of a sport...


yup, although theres more action than baseball.. there are far too many interuptions, and the interuptions usually take longer than the actual game play.

No, i dont have a short attention span, just would rather be doing something better with my time than watching guys slap each other on the ass, or an old announcer telling me who ran 20 yards for a first down in the 3rd quarter of a meaningless game 30 years ago.

[Inkmonkey]

A) in the winter when hockey is played... it does get cold, and you can go in your backyard and play - if you own a hose. If not, walk 5-10 mins to a local ice rink and play...

and B) have you never heard of road hockey?!

Those things are very "Canadian." There lies part of the problem. Some kid in Tampa isn't interested in playing road hockey. The hockey culture is not nearly in strong in the US as it is in Canada. Great Blubbering Baboons! Why is the NHL is bending over backward to cater to a market who doesn't care?!?!

[jmsait19]

As much as I wish Canada had more teams; they deserve it, they invented the sport, they got robbed when the team left winnipeg and quebec; their economy can't support it. Canadian teams are losing tons of money because they take in Canadian dollars for tickets but pay out American dollars to players. Something there is messed up, but I'm guessing there is not an easy solution. ESPN has some good articles about the lockout issues. If you are interest you should check them out.

[Abstract]

And for the record we don't have that many outdoor rinks in the US so it is kind of hard to play the sport especially in warm weather climates were ice is only in the freezer.

Nobody said outdoor rink. Most people play in indoor rinks, even in Canada.

NFL isn't as boring as baseball. I'm not even an American Football fan, but the only thing more boring than baseball is golf. And Football (ie: soccer) is one of the best sports to watch.

[rhpenguin]

and not many people can afford a rink in their back yard.

every year for the last 5 years ive built an ice rink in my back yard.. Total cost is under $30...

All you need is water. (and hot water to fix things once youve dinged it up a bit)

[Inkmonkey]

every year for the last 5 years ive built an ice rink in my back yard.. Total cost is under $30...

All you need is water. (and hot water to fix things once youve dinged it up a bit)

Holy Howler Monkeys! And just check the Google ads at the bottom of this page!!

[Chip NoVaMac]

A couple things:

The lockout is purely Gary Bettman's fault. He expanded the league too much, too fast and too far. Such expansion MUST dilute the talent pool. It did. It also adds to the overall payroll. It also increases competition for the shrinking percentage of marquee players.

As a result, marginal players are being paid outrageously high salaries. What were career minor leaguers only ten years ago are now fourth liners on good teams and 2nd liners on expansion teams.

People will complain about salaries causing high ticket prices, but let's face it, ticket price has little to do with payroll. Ticket prices are set at a level the market will bear. If people stopped paying outrageous prices for tix, they'd lower them. Clearly the market will bear such prices (in most areas), so they will not go away unless the owners lose their business sense and begin operating their franchise like a charity.

IMO it is greed on both sides. And we are guilty of allowing it to happen. I have no problem for a "great" player of getting contracts with Coke, Nike, and the such. But the salaries themselves have to be more real. Some of the best NFL games I remember was during the "scab games" during their strike so many years ago. The players played for next to nothing.


Hockey players are paid a lot of money. They also average a 5 year career, suffer 82 games of brutal physical punishment a year and are highly committed to their work. They are not paid a salary for their work in the playoffs, which is typically their best and most sacrificial effort.

No one forces any athlete to enter into pro sports. Whether they have a 5 year or 20 year career. It is their choice. And they should plan accordingly. At the same point owners need realize what the fans are all about. Sports should not just be about big SUV, latte drinking, McMasion dwelling fans. It should not cost a family of four of the average worker $125 to $300 to attend a game with all the trimmings.

The average NHL salary is $1.8 million, but this figure has been inflated because of the increased bidding for the handful of marquee players. Instead, we must look at the median salary, which is around $1 million. Half the players in the league make less than a million.

The starting was said to be about $300K. I would say that the top should not be more than $500K. For if they are that good they can get endorsement contracts to make up the rest.

Add to that, what does it say about our society that is willing to pay those that work only maybe 1/2 a year in some cases 10x as much as those that truly serve their community? Are firemen, policemen, and teachers worth only $30 to $50K a year?


The league says it's losing massive amounts of money and has put a lot of effort into making us think this is fact. This is a specious claim. How do we know? Exhibit A: The New York Rangers "lost" the most money. Anyone who knows sports know that NY teams never lose money, and the NYR surely did not, which means the NHL is allowing profits to be hidden in the bookkeeping practices.

Hockey cannot draw fans from non-traditional markets. We now know this. It has been an expensive lesson, and Gary Bettman must take the fall for teaching us.

You are so right about accounting. Enron, MicroStrategies, among others have shown that accounting can be used to benefit whom you want.

You also have a strong point about non-traditional markets. Call me old fashioned; but hockey is a cold weather sport. Some place that sees a good chance of snow and ice. But Dallas, Phoenix, and the such. Not to say they are not great hockey towns. But the owners and the league saw money there. Not a tradition.

And then you have towns like DC. Unless the team is named the Redskins, you better have a marque player (like Jordan in the NBA) or be winning to get the fans. I like hockey. I was given clubs seats by a client for Game 6 for the playoffs with the Capitals. Sure it was Palm Sunday. But the MCI Center was half empty. We were just a game away from further contention. it has been said that the "Skins could play on the day of the Seconding Coming, and there would be people lining up to try to scalp tickets.

[Chip NoVaMac]

uggggh but baseball is so boring and uneventful. You sit there for hours and see action for about 10 mins total.

I hate to say this, but baseball is for the "geek" among us. For many of us it is about the "stats". I sat next a guy once at an O's game that had a custom Filemaker program. For me it is the the stats of the players and the game at that moment that I am "betting" on in my mind.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I agree with the people saying that this effects many more people than just the players and owners. Thats a bigger issue in my mind. Those people who can't afford to lose money.

Amen. Even given my others half limited job situation, we have tried to go down to the MCI Center area when ever we had to (meeting friends that are in town). I have to meet with advertisers for business meals, and I have taken to select days that the MCI Center is "dark" to have our meetings. On even on a Sunday when the MCI Center is "dark" we have taken up the practice of of youth of a "Sunday Drive" and have even a "cheap" snack down there.

It is the "lowly worker" that is suffering the most. Not the players or the owners. Or even the league. For those people, if they were smart were able to save for this day. The concession worker at the MCI Center, the wait staff at the restaurants, or the parking lot attendants didn't have that advantage.

[Chip NoVaMac]

Exactly. Some of the competition to sign these "marquee" players by offering cash........well, there's no way many of these players would be considered "marquee" if the league was smaller. They're just marquee when compared to the large amount of mediocrity.
They work hard, and are generally more appreciative of their position in the community than NBA or NFL players. Many of these guys come back and play for their country, say Canada, tourney after tourney, year after year, decade after decade. In the NBA, one American Gold medal and they're gone. They've already experienced it, so why bother? Only Iverson and Duncan remain. I've got more respect for a guy like Iverson right now because as big a bad-ass as he is, he surely appreciates the opportunity he was given.

A larger portion of hockey players are actually quite decent guys who really do love and appreciate the game and choose to play in places like Toronto, Philly, Boston for less money simply because they love it.

Too bad this had to happen. Hockey is a good sport.

I see your point. I am more of a baseball and hockey fan. Never liked watching basketball (so much so I was given a series of suite tickets when Jordan was with the Wizards, I gave them to my boss). For the NHL and MLB, I have seen too many of the "big players" shun the fans. There were a few like Hunter of the Caps, and a few "bigger" O's players that relished the fans. In particular the youth. Too many others IMO were waiting for a time that they could charge $5 to $20 for their signature.

The unfortunate part is the "larger portion" of players are not what the "small set" of fans are looking for. I am getting into minor league baseball. One game with the Keys, the majority of the players came out to the field after the game to play "ball" with some of the youth league players that showed up. They had set up two smaller fields for youth league players to try their hand hitting, pitching and catching with the "pros". I will say that it was not just the parents that stayed to see the action that night.

[Chip NoVaMac]

I miss it, but if they don't straighten out the problems when they sign a new agreement, I'm not going to watch again. I already gave up on baseball, because my beloved Expos got screwed (never watched since '94).

My other half and i are looking at immigrating to Canada within a years time. Quebec Province and Montreal are high on his list because of his dual majors in business/accounting and French. i on the other hand my have a problem (different thread if the open the political back up). But we both are big baseball fans. His has mentioned Montreal and Quebec (city and Province) as being strong possibilities. Then I mentioned that the Expos were coming to our backyard. We both like hockey (more so him, than me), so the Canadians would provide an outlet.

Though I am weighing heavily on his outlook on what is right and wrong with the values that we have as a society. We have been going to the O's games because of the cheap seats ($9 to$17US). We can only hope that we might be able to afford Canadian tickets.

[Chip NoVaMac]

There were exactly 38 players in the entire league making 8 million or more in 2002-2003.

10 of the 30 NHL teams are already paying out less than the proposed salary cap. A cap cannot help them save money. A cap mostly benefits wealthy markets. They'll save some money, and continue to reap high revenue. The smaller market teams will not save, but they'll have access to a few higher caliber players that will suddenly be affordable to them. So it's possible they'll make more money with increased ticket sales. Possible but not likely.

<snip>

Hockey players aren't most people. They're elite athletes with unique talents. See more below.

<snip>

It would be nice if it were that simple, wouldn't it? The fans don't factor into it directly. They are merely one facet of the revenue aspect of the complex business of sports.

<snip>

What about the bickering of billion dollar owners?

Hockey is fun, but if you do it 3x a week and add practices and training, it's a job. A very punishing, exhausting, painful life-threatening job.

How many people can write a bestselling novel?
Sell out a stadium for a concert?
Perform brain surgery?
Not many, eh? That's why they are paid so much. The rarer the talent, the higher the pay. In this case, only about 700 people out of 6 billion can cut the mustard. They deserve every penny.

To argue otherwise is communist.

I see your point about the players and their talents. I for one would not want their job. But a lot of what I have been saying is that owners and players alike need to balance their personal needs and wants against the fans own ability.

You mentioned the punishment that players get. What about the perils of law enforcement or fire protection. Do they no deserve more financial compensation? And as one that spent almost four years as a substitute teacher in JR and SR HS, that can be just as hard and have greater rewards for future generations that someone that scores the two winning goals for the Stanley Cup. The best of the "breed" can get endorsement contracts.

[pseudobrit]

I'm going to say this again, and try to make it pointed:

NHL ticket prices have NOTHING to do with NHL salaries.

Ticket prices are set at a level the market will bear. Period. If the players were getting $25,000 a year, the owners would still be hitting you for $50 a seat. Why? Because the fans have shown that they will pay these prices!! If we stop going, then and only then will they lower prices.

[pseudobrit]

You mentioned the punishment that players get. What about the perils of law enforcement or fire protection. Do they no deserve more financial compensation? And as one that spent almost four years as a substitute teacher in JR and SR HS, that can be just as hard and have greater rewards for future generations that someone that scores the two winning goals for the Stanley Cup.

If there were only 700 people in the world who could be police officers, firefighters or substitute teachers, I'd say they'd very likely be getting multimillion dollar contracts too. And they'd deserve every penny they could get.

The best of the "breed" can get endorsement contracts.

Not in the NHL. Anything but the marquee players see very little from endorsements.

This is why the average player's salary must be protected the most. Their careers are short and they aren't making millions of dollars a year.

[pseudobrit]

When the NFL last negotiated a CBA, the salary cap forced the owners to spend more on their players.

A larger percentage of revenue goes to the players now.

[pseudobrit]

Hockey is obviously a Canadian sport and therefor the NHL should move the league to Canada to survive because I don't think the interest is there in mainstream America.

Sure it is. Ever been to Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota...? High school hockey games are sellouts.

Detroit sells out every game. The New York Rangers too. Boston enjoys high popularity, and plenty of people file in to see the Blues, Stars, Kings, Flyers and Avalanche.

There's enough interest in America to support quite a number of teams. But not in markets like Nashville, Phoenix, Miami, Raleigh Atlanta and Columbus.

[SilvorX]

I pray for Gary Bettman's death.
..and a canadian to replace him as commissioner, an NBA executive being the head honcho of a hockey organization was a baaaaaad idea

get don cherry to be the commissioner! lol only kidding

There's enough interest in America to support quite a number of teams. But not in markets like Nashville, Phoenix, Miami, Raleigh Atlanta and Columbus.
since gretzky owns part of the coyotes, he should buy up the rest of the team and move it back to the peg

[pseudobrit]

Forbes confirms that the league have lied massively about their losses.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6471372/

[Mac_Linux]

Major League Soccer fans are quite happy (http://www.mlsdiscussions.com/showthread.php?t=77) with the NHL strike.

They seem to think MLS will become the #4 sport in this country.

:)

[MacNut]

Major League Soccer fans are quite happy (http://www.mlsdiscussions.com/showthread.php?t=77) with the NHL strike.

They seem to think MLS will become the #4 sport in this country.

:)Wow they must really be off there rocker to think that Soccer will ever become mainstream in the States, If most could care less about a Hockey strike why would we even give an inkling of thought to soccer.

Plus it seems that the NHL may try to reach an agreement as they are meeting again with the union tomorrow.

[aloofman]

Major League Soccer fans are quite happy (http://www.mlsdiscussions.com/showthread.php?t=77) with the NHL strike.

They seem to think MLS will become the #4 sport in this country.

:)

I would say it already is. When the NHL is forced to beg for a U.S. TV contract that gives them no money up front, you know it's a marginal league. This is the kind of contract that arena football gets. Under the best-case scenario, the NHL will win back its status as the #4 sport.

And I'm a hockey fan.

[aloofman]

Hockey is obviously a Canadian sport and therefor the NHL should move the league to Canada to survive because I don't think the interest is there in mainstream America. And for the record we don't have that many outdoor rinks in the US so it is kind of hard to play the sport especially in warm weather climates were ice is only in the freezer.


I disagree. The NHL should have teams wherever the local population can support them. I live in southern California, where the Kings have had good attendance for the last decade, despite not being a contender. While NHL hockey is not high on the local radar, the metropolitan area is so large that there are plenty of fans to support a team. If the NHL only had teams in Canada, it would have only a small fraction of its current revenue and it would punish the scattered fans in the U.S., as well as the diehards who live in the midwest and northeast.

[Pittsax]

I would say it already is. When the NHL is forced to beg for a U.S. TV contract that gives them no money up front, you know it's a marginal league. This is the kind of contract that arena football gets. Under the best-case scenario, the NHL will win back its status as the #4 sport.

And I'm a hockey fan.
I have to blame the Devils for this one (the ones from New Jersey, not Satan -- he plays for Buffalo). Anyways, hockey was actually quite popular in the 80s and early 90s, back when teams like the Penguins were winning with fast, open ice, offensive hockey. Then the Devils came along and invented the "trap" which was essentially holding and interference under a new name. When they won the Cup, lots of teams began to copy their style, and the NHL degenerated into a boring, clutch-and-grab slogfest of a game. Thus, fans tuned out.

It's also a chicken-and-the-egg problem. For years, ESPN and the other networks have inundated us with the NBA. Then they say that no one watches hockey, even though it's rarely on.

[MacNut]

The real problem with Hockey is that it doesn't have a mass appeal to the average sports fan, its not a game that you can play anywhere like Football or even baseball that can be played in a back yard or on the beach. Even Basketball can be played in a driveway. Plus the fact that the league is too big, The same could be said for baseball that it is in too many cities and the sport gets diluted. Who wants to watch Hockey in Florida? Do they ever get cold enough for ice?

[mkubal]

The real problem with Hockey is that it doesn't have a mass appeal to the average sports fan, its not a game that you can play anywhere like Football or even baseball that can be played in a back yard or on the beach. Even Basketball can be played in a driveway. Plus the fact that the league is too big, The same could be said for baseball that it is in too many cities and the sport gets diluted. Who wants to watch Hockey in Florida? Do they ever get cold enough for ice?

Who: Me ;)

Cold enough?: Not in Tampa, unless you count a few nights ago when it dipped below freezing. But if I could I'd make a rink in my front yard.

While going to a Lightning game may not be as popular as going to a Bucs game in this city, there are certainly enough fans to fill the stadium. The question is can enough people afford a ticket to be able to go to the games every few days. I know football tickets are expensive, but you only have to buy 8 of them to see the whole home season.

I did get lucky last season and scored luxury box seats for 20 American per to see the Ning. Unfortunately we lost to Columbus that night. :(

[aloofman]

I have to blame the Devils for this one (the ones from New Jersey, not Satan -- he plays for Buffalo). Anyways, hockey was actually quite popular in the 80s and early 90s, back when teams like the Penguins were winning with fast, open ice, offensive hockey. Then the Devils came along and invented the "trap" which was essentially holding and interference under a new name. When they won the Cup, lots of teams began to copy their style, and the NHL degenerated into a boring, clutch-and-grab slogfest of a game. Thus, fans tuned out.

I'm tempted to agree, although there are a few other factors. (As a west-coaster, I'd really like to blame the sport's problems on New Jersey. I really would.) The league expanded way too fast, although this was mitigated slightly be the influx of players from eastern Europe.

I also think that the NHL reached some kind of tipping point because of the declining TV ratings that have affected all sports and other programming. The NFL's ratings are down over the last 10 years, but they're still #1, so they can charge plenty for TV rights. MLB and the NBA are also both down, but both have a stronger fan base in the U.S. than the NHL does. I don't know that there are far fewer U.S. hockey fans than before, but I don't think they watch as much hockey as they used to. This knocked the NHL's TV money down to smaller and smaller levels while the other sports' TV money went up, albeit at a slower rate.

Combined with a few tycoon owners who are willing to spare no expense (i.e., Detroit, N.Y. Rangers) their cost structure went out of control. This is not only the players' fault though. They're just getting as much as they can out of a career that tends to be short. In hindsight, I'm kind of surprised that a North American sports league didn't screw itself over earlier. Once you come to that realization, it's no surprise that it would be the league run by Gary Bettman.

[faraz]

man... I'm in toronto, and this is the worst winter right now! NO HOCKEY AND INFLUX OF AMERICAN INVESTMENT IN OUR FREAKIN BEER, its all going down man, but ah well... I've got hope for either a collapse or a last minute deal. I say collapse because i know that hockey will live in canada. So the dismantlement of the NHL could mean a rearangement of the market towards a purely canadian league!! THAT WOULD BE KEY! get the americans outa there!!! well minus detroit, boston and philie.

there, thats my hockey two cents.

faraz

[killuminati]

The real problem with Hockey is that it doesn't have a mass appeal to the average sports fan, its not a game that you can play anywhere like Football or even baseball that can be played in a back yard or on the beach. Even Basketball can be played in a driveway.

HAHA, you just think that because your not Canadian :D.
In Canada it is played like that. My cousins in Toronto have an icerink in their yard every winter and play hockey there. Local schools and parks have ice rinks you can go to. There are manny indoor rinks you can go to any time of the year. And then ofcourse there are the other forms of hockey; street hockey, roller hockey, floor hockey.

I LOVE hockey:D:D:D:D

[puckhead193]

As u can prob tell from my user name i'm a huge hockey fan. I'm so depressed their isn't a season... I was excited to go to school in boston and see a "decent team" (i'm normaly a NY Ranger fan :o )I hope Mr. Bettmen will retire becase he has no idea how to run a sports league....
The NHL should shut down their website since there will be no hockey for a while (prob next year to)and save a few $$$ :rolleyes:

[MacNut]

You have to but some blame on the union as they are the greedy bastards that want all the money.

[Chip NoVaMac]

You have to but some blame on the union as they are the greedy bastards that want all the money.

Like the owners don't? In the end we as sports fans are to blame. We allow ourselves to be taken in hook line and sinker by the teams. the players, their agents, and their advertisers. Don't give me this stuff that only a few are worthy of playing the game, so they deserve their big salaries. They can get from endorsements. The average person can not afford to go the games any more, and have a good nite out of sport, food and drink.

[clayj]

Like the owners don't? In the end we as sports fans are to blame. We allow ourselves to be taken in hook line and sinker by the teams. the players, their agents, and their advertisers. Don't give me this stuff that only a few are worthy of playing the game, so they deserve their big salaries. They can get from endorsements. The average person can not afford to go the games any more, and have a good nite out of sport, food and drink.Ultimately, the responsibility for this lockout falls on the shoulders of the players. The owners were paying the players using money received through TV contracts; when the TV ratings for the NHL went in the tank, the new TV contracts were much smaller. Less money from the TV networks = less money for the teams = less salary for the players. The owners aren't going to continue paying the same amounts as before when they themselves are taking it in the shorts... the only way they could continue paying those huge salaries would be to raise ticket prices, and they realized that that was NOT going to work.

The greedy players' union needs to realize this, and agree to a compromise that allows EVERYONE to return to work.

[aloofman]

Ultimately, the responsibility for this lockout falls on the shoulders of the players. The owners were paying the players using money received through TV contracts; when the TV ratings for the NHL went in the tank, the new TV contracts were much smaller. Less money from the TV networks = less money for the teams = less salary for the players. The owners aren't going to continue paying the same amounts as before when they themselves are taking it in the shorts... the only way they could continue paying those huge salaries would be to raise ticket prices, and they realized that that was NOT going to work.

The greedy players' union needs to realize this, and agree to a compromise that allows EVERYONE to return to work.

It is not as simple as the players coming to their senses. A big part of the NHL's problem is that some owners ARE "going to continue paying the same amounts as before when they themselves are taking it in the shorts" because they run the team as a hobby, not as a moneymaker. The owner of the Detroit Red Wings is one of the top spenders and is willing to lose money every year because he owns the Little Caesar's pizza chain. It only takes one nutty owner every year to hand out a huge contract to raise salaries for all of the owners. This is great if you're a business tycoon who wants to win, or you're a fan of that team. It's bad for the other teams because they have budget constraints. On the other hand, quite a few teams use accounting tricks to claim huge losses when everyone knows it's not true. This makes claims of poverty hard to swallow.

While I agree that the players' union has to realize that revenue is never going to be close to the other three North American sports, why should they agree to a pact to help the owners save them from themselves? Both the players and owners created the current system. I don't know if a salary cap is necessary or not. My feeling is that some revenue sharing (like MLB) will be needed so that the big spenders are penalized for the way they hurt other teams.

There was a pretty good article on Slate.com last year about how the North American sports leagues run themselves like cartels and European soccer is far more capitalist. Teams have to prove themselves year after year to stay in the top league, for example. Didn't we already learn that communism doesn't work? :p

[stcanard]

There is only one solution:

Dump Bettman. NOW! For the good of North American hockey.

[killuminati]

yea stcanard!

GO CANUCKS - oh wait, what canucks :(

[rickvanr]

I don't know everything there is to know about the lock-out, but I do know that it's the owners who want a cap, not just Bettman, and since Bettman is basically only a spokesman for the owners, how will dumping him solve anything?

I think they should disband the union, put in the system they want, and start over.

[killuminati]

I have to say I completely back up the owners. A salary cap is needed soooo badly. Its rediculous some of the players salary's. last year Forsberg and Jagr, each were paid 11 million. It's crazy. The players are making **** loads of money and the owners are losing money. Who do you think should be getting more money?!?!? Now I know that some players are only making around 300,000 (which is still a hell of a lot). Thats what would be good about a salary cap as opposed to a cutback. The salaries would even out a lot.

Bettman really #@*^%! up the league. :mad:

[xsedrinam]

There is only one solution:

Dump Bettman. NOW! For the good of North American hockey.

"Good" and "N.A. hockey", all in one sentence, is the oxymoron of the week. I've stopped watching the NBA as well.
X

[Deefuzz]

I have to blame the Devils for this one (the ones from New Jersey, not Satan -- he plays for Buffalo).

LOL

[stcanard]

GO CANUCKS - oh wait, what canucks :(

Oh they're still there, they're just called Modo now :D

[stcanard]

I don't know everything there is to know about the lock-out, but I do know that it's the owners who want a cap, not just Bettman, and since Bettman is basically only a spokesman for the owners, how will dumping him solve anything?

The problem with Bettman is far more than just the salary cap (now with the salary cap, it's only a subset of the owners that want it, but Bettman's in a situation where he only needs a small set of owners to push his pet "cap", he doesn't even need a majority!)

Over the past several years, Bettman has aggressively destroyed the NHL by pushing it into markets that really don't care about it, and making rule changes to slow the game down to level the playing field for those teams that don't have a fan base to be able support marquee players (which happen to be the same cities he's pushed into that didn't want it in the first place).

Now, after creating a financial crisis by actively creating a boring game in too many cities, he's driving the top players out by proposing a bone-headed solution to a problem he's created in the first place (when everyone, even most of the owners would agree to the luxury tax).

He needs to go. Not just because of this lockout, but for the good of hockey total.

[stcanard]

I've stopped watching the NBA as well.
X

Basketball has never been interesting. How can I possibly get excited about a game where only the last two minutes mean anything? (Ohh, it's 75 - 10. Oh well, 10 minutes and they can catch up).

[MacNut]

Basketball has never been interesting. How can I possibly get excited about a game where only the last two minutes mean anything? (Ohh, it's 75 - 10. Oh well, 10 minutes and they can catch up).Ya I know what you mean, ever since Artest was suspended for the season basketball is really dull now.

As for Bettmen, he allows the teams with an established fan base to leave for a city that could care less about hockey, Im referring to the Hartford Whalers that had devoted fans but an asshole owner and a commissioner that allows it to happen in the name of greed. Not as the Union really cares much more about the integrity of the game either.

[MacNut]

But what do I really care the SuperBowl is in a week and baseball spring training is right around the corner.

[pseudobrit]

Ultimately, the responsibility for this lockout falls on the shoulders of the players. The owners were paying the players using money received through TV contracts; when the TV ratings for the NHL went in the tank, the new TV contracts were much smaller.

So it's the players' responsibility that the ratings dropped?

Less money from the TV networks = less money for the teams = less salary for the players. The owners aren't going to continue paying the same amounts as before

Then why did they?

The greedy players' union needs to realize this, and agree to a compromise that allows EVERYONE to return to work.

The players have already offered the owners a refund of all the money they say they're losing. The owners refused.

[pseudobrit]

I have to say I completely back up the owners. A salary cap is needed soooo badly. Its rediculous some of the players salary's. last year Forsberg and Jagr, each were paid 11 million.

Baseball sees players paid much more. The two players you mention are the best in the world. Their contracts are not what's wrong with the league.

It's crazy. The players are making **** loads of money and the owners are losing money.

The Avs and Rags did make money, despite owning the contracts for Forsberg and Jagr.

Who do you think should be getting more money?!?!?

I pay to see the players. No one goes to a hockey game to see the owners. The players are the product.

Now I know that some players are only making around 300,000 (which is still a hell of a lot).

Average pro hockey career is 5 years long. Guys play 82 brutal games a year and up to 28 playoff games (for which they are not paid).

Thats what would be good about a salary cap as opposed to a cutback. The salaries would even out a lot.

Au contraire, the marquee players would still command multimillion dollar contracts because marquee players put butts in the seats. It's the lesser players who will suffer pay cuts at their expense.

Bettman really #@*^%! up the league. :mad:

I agree with you totally.

[rickvanr]

HA Jagr being one of the best players in the league.. HA

[pseudobrit]

I've been following the NHL labour situation very closely for over a year now and have become somewhat of an expert in the process. It's very complicated and difficult to explain some things, but I'll offer this:

Gary Bettman has been planning to have a yearlong lockout of the players for quite some time.

He wants to have the lockout extend through the entire year without significant movement by either management or labour. Then, in spring, he will petition the National Labor Relations Board to declare an impasse.

With the declaration of impasse in hand, Bettman is free to unilaterally implement the last proposal offered by the league without any input from the NHLPA.

The latest offer would become the new CBA. The PA would be forced to strike.

Bettman will then hire replacement players aka scabs, start a season of scab hockey and invite NHLPA players to cross the line to play. The scabs will be horrible players. AHLers and ECHLers will not cross the line unless they're sure they'll never be tapped to play in the NHL. What you will see is veteran third and fourth line AHL/ECHL players.

Gary Bettman doesn't want us to see hockey this year. Gary Bettman wants to break the union, and us not seeing hockey is the only way he knows how to do it.

If you have any questions about any of this, I can probably answer them.

[rickvanr]

The OHL, CHL and WHL is good hockey with good players. If those players came out and played, it would still be a good league. They need to eliminate a few of the american teams that caused the league to get watered down in the first place. A cap is a good idea, but with a league with 30 teams, and a cap, no one team will be dominate, and the league will be watered down, instead of having good teams, mediocre and bad teams, the teams will all be mediocre.

[pseudobrit]

HA Jagr being one of the best players in the league.. HA

I said world. Have you followed his playing in Europe this season?

[rickvanr]

I said world. Have you followed his playing in Europe this season?
Only what's been on sportsnet, and world or league, it doesn't change anything. Jagr is only a scorer, he's nothing special. For example, Jerome Iginla is a much better player, because he plays at both ends off the ice, isn't a showboat, and is willing to pay the price to get things done.

[pseudobrit]

The OHL, CHL and WHL is good hockey with good players. If those players came out and played, it would still be a good league.

But the NHL should be more than just "good." It should be a showcase of the most amazing talent in the world, not a league filled with never-weres and has-beens.
Remember, most minor league hockey is fun to watch because the teams are filled with skilled young players who are either on their way up to the NHL or are signed to two-way contracts (they can be called up by the NHL team). Those players will not be part of scab hockey.

They need to eliminate a few of the american teams that caused the league to get watered down in the first place. A cap is a good idea, but with a league with 30 teams, and a cap, no one team will be dominate, and the league will be watered down, instead of having good teams, mediocre and bad teams, the teams will all be mediocre.

Yessir!

We can place blame at the feet of many. At the players for making so much money to play a game, at the player agents for pushing the current system too hard to increase salaries by blackmailing owners, at the owners for offering huge salaries to mediocre or unproven players, at the Bruins for being the first to give in to Thornton's agent's scheme that bypassed the rookie salary cap with bonuses, at the fans for loyally shelling out $50 a ticket for regular season nosebleed seats. Yes, plenty of folks share in the blame.

But the reason we are at this junction is ultimately because of one person:
Gary Bettman.

His vision to expand hockey was his penultimate mistake. The existing owners went along with his plan only because the expansion fees netted them $300 million dollars to spend amongst themselves ($50M per new team). Bettman fed their greed.

Previous league expansions saw talent from outside North America moving to the NHL to fill the demand for skilled players. The entire world became the well from which teams pulled their talent. But this well is not deep enough to support 30 teams. Lacklustre, career minor leaguers are now on NHL checking lines, drawing an NHL salary. Mediocrity is on the same payscale as phenominal.

A rising tide lifts all boats. More players mean the best players become increasingly rare and in demand. Supply and demand dictates that all players at this level will increase in value as they become more in demand.

Gary Bettman's NHL expansion is the reason certain teams are losing money.

Now, for the sake of a half dozen small market teams we have a lockout designed to create a salary cap that will help the small markets and punish the large markets.

The big losers: the fans and the sport.

[stcanard]

Bettman will then hire replacement players aka scabs, start a season of scab hockey and invite NHLPA players to cross the line to play. The scabs will be horrible players. AHLers and ECHLers will not cross the line unless they're sure they'll never be tapped to play in the NHL. What you will see is veteran third and fourth line AHL/ECHL players.

Gary Bettman doesn't want us to see hockey this year. Gary Bettman wants to break the union, and us not seeing hockey is the only way he knows how to do it.

If you have any questions about any of this, I can probably answer them.

One big problem with that scenario is he will lose Vancouver and Montreal, where replacements are illegal, and quite possibly Toronto and Ottawa where replacements are in a very quasi-legal state (the NHLPA basically needs to file some paperwork to make it illegal).

With almost all the Canadan teams gone, there goes more than 1/2 his TV audience. We'll watch WHL, OHL, and QJMHL instead.

[rickvanr]

But the NHL should be more than just "good." It should be a showcase of the most amazing talent in the world, not a league filled with never-weres and has-beens.

Right now, one would argue that is what it has become.

One big problem with that scenario is he will lose Vancouver and Montreal, where replacements are illegal, and quite possibly Toronto and Ottawa where replacements are in a very quasi-legal state (the NHLPA basically needs to file some paperwork to make it illegal).

With almost all the Canadan teams gone, there goes more than 1/2 his TV audience. We'll watch WHL, OHL, and QJMHL instead.

I forgot the Q, that is a hotspot for many of the NHL's premier goalies, and where Mr. Crosby plays. I saw on Sportsnet that games where Crosby played sold something like 8000 more tickets then games he didn't play in during the world junior's tournament last year. That's about half the rink.

[pseudobrit]

One big problem with that scenario is he will lose Vancouver and Montreal, where replacements are illegal, and quite possibly Toronto and Ottawa where replacements are in a very quasi-legal state (the NHLPA basically needs to file some paperwork to make it illegal).

With almost all the Canadan teams gone, there goes more than 1/2 his TV audience. We'll watch WHL, OHL, and QJMHL instead.

Provincial laws vary on scabs. IIRC, Ontario would allow them, as would Alberta.