PDA

View Full Version : PowerMac G5 vs. Dell Precision Workstation 670


MacBytes
Nov 5, 2004, 10:26 AM
Category: Reviews
Link: PowerMac G5 vs. Dell Precision Workstation 670 (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20041105112622)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

Wonder Boy
Nov 5, 2004, 10:48 AM
i can't read that. she asks too many questions. but then again i should have known what i was getting into by now....

x86isslow
Nov 5, 2004, 10:51 AM
i want my 5 minutes back

can we stop linking stories to mac360, it seems the articles there are really shoddy.

edesignuk
Nov 5, 2004, 11:00 AM
That was pathetic.

I propose a new MacPolls.com polls where we vote if mac360.com articles get posted to MacBytes :D

2GMario
Nov 5, 2004, 11:34 AM
since when did they stop looking for a college education when hiring news writers ?

article sucked.

-Mario

jchen
Nov 5, 2004, 11:49 AM
...straightforward, easy to understand, good review of the price differences which seem surprisingly very small compared to "common knowledge" where everyone says Mac cost more. I've read Paul Murphy's articles and was surprised at his conclusions, too. It may be a slow process but IT groups, the good ones, are beginning to pay attention to Macs.

We have Dell and Sony PC desktops, a few PowerMacs. With monitor, extra RAM they all cost around $3,000 or more. The only problem is the PCs are being worked on most of the time. Not the Macs. We also have a few Linux boxes but I don't know the box brand. They're testing install and operating costs. Should be interesting.

Oh, 1MT, "WonderBoy", who's the "she" you reference?

Methinks this MB crowd doth protest too much because, 1) Kerry lost, 2) Bush won, 3) don't like to read (hence the inability to articulate meaningful responses), 4) 2004 is the International Year of Whine, 5) readers don't know who Jack Miller "really" is, 6) unemployment figures are off by at least half a dozen.

shamino
Nov 5, 2004, 11:59 AM
I'm actually surprised he was able to find a Dell that was comparable to the G5. But I think much of that was because he didn't try to match each and every feature. For instance: digital surround audio, SATA hard drives, Gigabit Ethernet or FireWire ports.

Additionally, a Xeon is a 32-bit chip, so it really can't be directly compared against a G5.

When I tried to price a system with dual Opterons and a matching feature set, the PC came out much more expensive than the G5. (Around $4500).

On the other hand, when I decided to price raw parts, as if to assemble a home-built dual Opteron system with a matching feature set, the price came out to be less than the G5. (Around $2700). Obviously, the vendors are charging a substantial markup on their high-end systems.

In my estimates, the only software product I included was the operating system (Windows XP Pro for the Opteron box.) Adding in nearest-equivalent programs to try and match the standard Apple bundle would've made the Opteron system more expensive, but that's not really fair, because there really are no good comparably-priced PC equivalents to programs like iChat-AV or Graphic Converter.

rbarrett
Nov 5, 2004, 12:00 PM
That is surprising. I did not think Power Macintosh compared favorably with anything by Dell. That is a dead heat on price and basic specifications. I know the review was a simple cost comparison. What I would like to see is a comparison of performance and cost of ownership. Every time I read something about Windows and PC ownership costs being lower than Linux or Macintosh the research turns out to be sponsored by Microsoft. All of our company Macs are still running and some have MacOS9. The Windows computers get changed out every two years. I thought that Windows computers could be upgraded to last longer. How does the Power Macintosh compare to the Dell work station on performance? I thought that Macintosh was only faster or better for video and graphics. If Photo Shop is available on Windows then which machine is faster using it?

mfeldman
Nov 5, 2004, 12:09 PM
When I tried to price a system with dual Opterons and a matching feature set, the PC came out much more expensive than the G5. (Around $4500).

On the other hand, when I decided to price raw parts, as if to assemble a home-built dual Opteron system with a matching feature set, the price came out to be less than the G5. (Around $2700).

I did the same thing just now on the Dell web site. The article price comparison is accurate as stated. If you add the Firewire, non-Xeon chips, higher clock speed, gigabit Ethernet, then the Dell price skyrockets to over $4,000.

Amazing. Apple costs LESS than Dell? I also did a price comparison on the Dell flat panel displays versus the Apple cinema displays. Apple loses on price, but there is no Dell display exactly like the Apple displays.

Is there any way to create a real-world performance comparison between machines like that? Not Photoshop.

shamino
Nov 5, 2004, 12:20 PM
What I would like to see is a comparison of performance and cost of ownership.
If you include TCO, the Mac ends up costing much less. The manpower needed to keep a Windows PC working properly (including system software updates and virus-scan updates, etc.) is very expensive.

While commercial software for the two platforms is comparaibly priced, Macs come with a lot of useful things that either don't exist or aren't free on the PC platform. For instance, the standard Mac bundle includes (among other things) iLife (iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, Garage Band), Art Directors Toolkit, GraphicConverter, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, iChat AV, iSync, iCal, and the Xcode Developer Tools.

iTunes is free for Windows. Most of the rest is not. If you use even some of these, their inclusion means a lot. For example, in order to get a development environment equivalent to the Xcode Developer Tools, you'd need to buy something like IBM Visual Age or Microsoft's Developer Studio - neither of which are cheap.
All of our company Macs are still running and some have MacOS9. The Windows computers get changed out every two years. I thought that Windows computers could be upgraded to last longer.
Windows PCs (especially in an office environment) can last longer than that. Where I work, my Windows PC is a 667MHz Pentium-III. It's quite happy running Windows 2000 and MS Office 2000. So far, the only upgrade it's needed was some extra memory.

The real problem with PCs isn't the hardware cost, but the support costs. I do my own maintenance (visit Windows Update at least once a week, monitor my virus scanner to make sure it auto-updates the DAT files and scans the whole system every day at 2:00am, etc.) but other people (especially those who are not engineers) rely on our IT department to do that. This isn't a free service - a lot of Windows PC means a need for a lot of extra employees.

Macs also need periodic maintenance (e.g. software updates), but not nearly as often. And (so far, anyway), the consequences of failing to update are not catastrophic. (Fail to update Windows and you risk virusses and worms. So far, failure to update MacOS usually only means you're missing out on the latest new features.)
How does the Power Macintosh compare to the Dell work station on performance?
For typical office work (word processing, spreadsheet, e-mail, web), it really doesn't matter. The bottleneck is rarely the processor. It's usually either the network or the user.

Programs that are easier to use tend to make people more productive, but that's not really a performance issues.
I thought that Macintosh was only faster or better for video and graphics.
Media professionals like to use Macs for a variety of reasons, which encourages development of professional media software for the platform.

Overall, I think you can get programs with equivalent power on both platforms, but the Mac ones are usually much easier to use. Which means you can get more work done.
If Photo Shop is available on Windows then which machine is faster using it?
This is a loaded question, right?

Photoshop is heavily optimized for Apple's latest architectures. Photoshop tests comparing Macs to PCs show the Mac running two or three times faster than the PC. But this is not typical of most applications.

There's a reason Steve Jobs has historically used Photoshop for his demonstrations :) .

rbarrett
Nov 5, 2004, 12:38 PM
If you include TCO, the Mac ends up costing much less. The manpower needed to keep a Windows PC working properly (including system software updates and virus-scan updates, etc.) is very expensive...
This is a loaded question, right? There's a reason Steve Jobs has historically used Photoshop for his demonstrations :) .

No, a serious question, thanks. I am a pure newbie here. Your response may be the best, most useful response I have received here or anywhere else. Thanks. Is it common for some posters to complain about everything? It is so obvious that some readers do not read articles all the way through and simply respond with complaints on everything and it is always the same names. They should be banned. Maybe President Bush can do something about such litter on the internet. :mad: I use both Macintosh and Windows at work and have just come to prefer Macintosh because there are just fewer problems. Most Windows users I know just complain about it until someone fixes the computer. Macintosh users do not seem to complain much. Except on this site.

edesignuk
Nov 5, 2004, 12:47 PM
non-Xeon chipsAnd replace the Xeons with what? You cannot have P4's in multi-processor systems, the current "xeon" is essentially a P4 capable of being used in multi-processor configuration (plus some xeons can have more cache).

jchen
Nov 5, 2004, 01:16 PM
...just now on the single processor P4 (non-Xeon) and added components to bring it on par with a PowerMac G5 dual 2.5 ghz-- still more money for the Dell.

Sweet.

How does a single CPU PowerMac compare to Dell? That seems to depend on how you mix and match components. Nothing is exactly apples to apples (no pun) but Mac pricing seems to be very competitive at both ends. Didn't AppleInsider said something about iMacs flying out the doors at Apple Stores? The 20" model has a 3 to 5 business day wait.

eazyway
Nov 5, 2004, 01:16 PM
Don't forget Apple pricing always includes shipping. Dell usually ships for an extra $130 per box.(except when the have their specials --almost 40% of the time)

Belly-laughs
Nov 5, 2004, 01:16 PM
I did the same thing just now on the Dell web site. The article price comparison is accurate as stated. If you add the Firewire, non-Xeon chips, higher clock speed, gigabit Ethernet, then the Dell price skyrockets to over $4,000.

Amazing. Apple costs LESS than Dell?

Thatīs exactly what made it a ***** article - a story based on visiting two online stores :rolleyes: Heck, you just said the same thing in approx. 45 words!

mfeldman
Nov 5, 2004, 01:20 PM
Thatīs exactly what made it a ***** article - a story based on visiting two online stores :rolleyes: Heck, you just said the same thing in approx. 45 words!

And that's exactly what made the article worthwhile, putz. I didn't know that before I read the article. Is it possible that others didn't know it either. Hmmm.

You'd better stop saying things like shiite because it's not politically correct. Muslims read, too.

RonJ83
Nov 5, 2004, 01:21 PM
im going to do a apples vs oranges review anyone wanna help me out? cost wise its pretty inexpensive. but performance wise its gonna be hard to tell. wonder if there are any fruit benchmarks out there? :cool:

nagromme
Nov 5, 2004, 01:28 PM
They should be banned. Maybe President Bush can do something about such litter on the internet.

Maybe so ;) I'm sure freedom of expression and freedom of privacy are in for a serious pummeling. Hello censorship, goodbye open dialog. Ignorance is Strength! :D

Wonder Boy
Nov 5, 2004, 01:40 PM
[QUOTE=jchend

Oh, 1MT, "WonderBoy", who's the "she" you reference?

tera patrick. i can't remember the last time she posted something coherent.

jchen
Nov 5, 2004, 02:20 PM
[QUOTE=jchend
Oh, 1MT, "WonderBoy", who's the "she" you reference?
tera patrick. i can't remember the last time she posted something coherent.

Obviously, your memory pre-dates you (though, based on your picture, dates are surely hard to come by). Apparently you can't remember English well enough to read an article by Jack Miller and attribute it as such. If ignorance is strength (good line, nagromme), no wonder you pick such a "strong" picture. :eek:

winmacguy
Nov 5, 2004, 02:21 PM
And that's exactly what made the article worthwhile, putz. I didn't know that before I read the article. Is it possible that others didn't know it either. Hmmm.

You'd better stop saying things like shiite because it's not politically correct. Muslims read, too.

The previous poster said "*****" not "Shiite" with two t's. "*****" commonly used by the Irish is used to "politely" say "****" rather than "shi-ite Muslims that your thinking of"

on another note I thought it was a very accurate report. It is good to see the main stream press taking time out to do a proper comparason of what Apple and Delll offer to find that Apple is not over priced when compared with other top end work stations.

Wonder Boy
Nov 5, 2004, 02:24 PM
Obviously, your memory pre-dates you (though, based on your picture, dates are surely hard to come by). Apparently you can't remember English well enough to read an article by Jack Miller and attribute it as such. If ignorance is strength (good line, nagromme), no wonder you pick such a "strong" picture. :eek:

hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaha. ass.

wrldwzrd89
Nov 5, 2004, 02:28 PM
[QUOTE=jchend

Oh, 1MT, "WonderBoy", who's the "she" you reference?

tera patrick. i can't remember the last time she posted something coherent.
"Tera Patricks" is who you're thinking of. Some people (maybe jchen is one of them?) think that she isn't a real person - instead she's just a name used by the person that registered the mac360.com domain name.

Anyway, I liked the article. I'd say it's one of the best Mac360 articles I've read. It's not without its problems though - it could use some more analysis IMO.

Wonder Boy
Nov 5, 2004, 02:52 PM
hmm, interesting. i didn't know that.thank you.

just to clarify further (i noticed a typo i had) tera patrick is a pornstar. tera patricks is the fictional character who "runs" that mind numbing website.

jchen
Nov 5, 2004, 04:01 PM
hmm, interesting. i didn't know that.thank you.
just to clarify further (i noticed a typo i had) tera patrick is a pornstar. tera patricks is the fictional character who "runs" that mind numbing website.

How much clarification can someone with a face like that provide? It's ironic you use the phrase "mind numbing." Judging from the picture, it's probably why you were attracted to that site in the first place. Come to think of it, judging from the picture, you also have an attraction to "fictional characters" that's fully understandable. Who's doing your typing for you, Franky? Count Chocula? Tonsils sore today so you're out of school?

I appreciate thoughtful, intelligent articles** on Mac subjects and a product comparison from time to time is beneficial. This particular comparison of pricing vs. Dell was enlightening; perhaps we should try to spread the word to others of the Windows clan, rather than harangue the messenger. FWIW, I have had my fill for now of articles on the iPod and iTMS. The perspectives Ms Tera provides are refreshing; complete sentences, too.

Of course, that contrasts sharply with mind numbing meandering ** of typos, misspellings, incomplete sentences, run-on sentences, poor grammar, inaccurate drivel, et al, from Franky Boy. Still, all things considered, Franky is doing well since being discharged. Unfortunately, the Republicans have a mandate and capital to spend; that will now reduce the spending that brought him to life in the first place, and now there's no way to get him back to the castle.

Anybody got 10.3.6 up and running? I had a problem with the last Safari update and had to revert to the previous 1.2 install. The new update gave me a new Safari 1.2.4 v125.11. Otherwise, no issues I can find.

Wonder Boy
Nov 5, 2004, 04:35 PM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. ass.

its an avatar, man. let it go.

Sun Baked
Nov 5, 2004, 04:47 PM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. ass.

its an avatar, man. let it go.Judging from Joey Chen's website (www.babetaxi.com) he know's who you guys were talking about and was probably picking on you.

macnulty
Nov 5, 2004, 07:39 PM
since when did they stop looking for a college education when hiring news writers ?

article sucked.

-Mario

Have you read a newspaper lately?

solvs
Nov 5, 2004, 11:11 PM
Not to whine about the whiners, but if you don't like Mac360 articles STOP CLICKING ON THEM!. It clearly says what the site is. Not to mention, Tera didn't write this, Jack did (apparently not the same Jack of As The Apple Turns, as she corrected me). These are tongue-in-cheek, blog-type articles. Opinions, facts, random ravings. If you don't like it, don't read it. No one is forcing you. I for one like some of the articles, even when I disagree with them and appreciate when MacBytes posts them. If you don't... don't read it!

Sorry, but I'm tired of people saying this everytime one of their articles is posted.

Same with the political statements. Not here. I'd rather the Mods not start banning people for offenses, but I wouldn't blame them if they did. Better than them having to keep closing forums and deleting posts. This is not the place. Thank you, and good night. :D

shamino
Nov 7, 2004, 12:44 PM
And replace the Xeons with what? You cannot have P4's in multi-processor systems, the current "xeon" is essentially a P4 capable of being used in multi-processor configuration (plus some xeons can have more cache).
You can use AMD Opterons to get a 64-bit PC platform with multiple processors. IMO, this is a much closer analog to a G5 than a P4/Xeon.

Unfortunately, Dell is an Intel-only shop, so you wouldn't be able to price such a system from them.

Yvan Z
Nov 9, 2004, 07:10 AM
I'm a n00b to the forum, forgive me.

I'm just glad to see I'm not the only person who is sick of seeing (and reading) these Mac360 articles.

I think this article kind of got side tracked, sure, lets compare the two, processors, RAM, hard drive, DVD burner, etc...

Did somebody mention Benchmarks?

Ummm, no.

Not saying that the Dell would out perform the G5, but this comparison is a very simply one. The article only seemed to look at price, not to mention there was a big Mac slant, i.e. 'No, no comparison of other software. There’s nothing that really compares with Apple’s iLife suite of applications anyway.' I mean, its simply bias, the reporter didn't even look at what might have been offered by Dell, who knows what it may have been.

It seems to be a trend in the Mac360 articles (Ranting, pointless articles, pointless polls, lack of real Mac news.) Look at the title on the main banner! '360? of daily Mac news, headlines, commentary and reviews'.

OK, sorry for the rant, I'm just sick of some of these pointless articles from Mac360, I think they could do a LOT better then what they are doing right now.

Oh, and if they take that stupid picture of Tera Patricks' with the silver wig off the site, that's a good start.

g4cubed
Nov 9, 2004, 08:08 AM
Not to whine about the whiners, but if you don't like Mac360 articles STOP CLICKING ON THEM!. It clearly says what the site is. I don't see anything that states it's a Mac360 article. Maybe we need it in big red letters
Category: Reviews Warning!!! MAC360 ARTICLE
Link: PowerMac G5 vs. Dell Precision Workstation 670 (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php? sid=20041105112622)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug
Not to mention, Tera didn't write this, Jack did (apparently not the same Jack of As The Apple Turns, as she corrected me). These are tongue-in-cheek, blog-type articles. Opinions, facts, random ravings. If you don't like it, don't read it. No one is forcing you. I for one like some of the articles, even when I disagree with them and appreciate when MacBytes posts them. If you don't... don't read it!
Any more I don't waste my time reading them. And just because she didn't write the article doesn't make it any better. Most articles I've read at that site are junk. And I don't read them. But a notice as decribed above would save me and others time by not even clicking on the article.

Sorry, but I'm tired of people saying this everytime one of their articles is posted.
Well that's because the majority of the people think the articles suck.

shamino
Nov 9, 2004, 05:04 PM
I don't see anything that states it's a Mac360 article. Maybe we need it in big red letters
Look on the main page http://www.macbytes.com/. The source of every article is immediately to the right of the title and number of comments. See also the attached image.