PDA

View Full Version : Consumer Reports Still Not Recommending iPhone 4




Pages : 1 2 3 4 [5]

bigsexyy81
Jul 19, 2010, 12:45 AM
I'm just amazed that Steve Jobs had to trash other companies to justify this blatant design flaw. I thought Apple was "genius" and "it all just works" or "Apple products are insanely great". Yeah right.:rolleyes:
It was kind of a weak move that he had to go there, but if he simply came out and said 'many other phones have similar issues', the pundits would have said 'oh ya right Steve no one has complained before so must not be an issue.' He proved that other phones had the same issue. Point proved.



techkidd4400
Jul 19, 2010, 01:21 AM
I haven't read Consumer Reports in years; they are no longer relevant. Car dealers laugh at their recommendations on car prices. I certainly would not follow their recommendations about whether to buy an iPhone....maybe a toaster or a blender.

iWolf00
Jul 19, 2010, 02:00 AM
iphone 4 won't reach my country before end of the year. I hope apple solve all issues if there is any. Moreover the iPad has not officially released yet and most of people who like iPad, they bought it from online stores. That indicates I have to wait for very long time before I can get the new iPhone :(

DiScO197
Jul 19, 2010, 03:09 AM
I haven't read Consumer Reports in years; they are no longer relevant. Car dealers laugh at their recommendations on car prices. I certainly would not follow their recommendations about whether to buy an iPhone....maybe a toaster or a blender.

Hows about this one?

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/kitchen-appliances/blenders/blender-ratings/models/overview/blendtec-total-blender-tb-621-20-99026013.htm

tt92618
Jul 19, 2010, 03:21 AM
Ha! if Apple had any integrity they wouldn't have shown us 'dropping bars' when the problem is dropping calls, they would have shown us the 3GS, and they would have shown us what 1 finger does on the iPhone 4.

Please, CR need prove nothing to Apple - Apple has set the 'honesty' bar so low everyone can step over their standard.

Its about truth. CR is supposed to be a non-profit agency that dispassionately evaluates products for consumer benefit. That means that they should care about what is true. CR says that the antenna issue is real and that they proved it, Apple says it is way overblown, that all cell phones suffer from the same issues, and that the CR tests were improperly done.

There is an easy way to prove what is true, here, and that is to invite CR to participate in the tests, in a proper facility, using both their experts and Apple's. If Apple is telling the truth, they should not have an issue with this. If CR cares about the truth, neither should they.

butterfly0fdoom
Jul 19, 2010, 03:27 AM
Its about truth. CR is supposed to be a non-profit agency that dispassionately evaluates products for consumer benefit. That means that they should care about what is true.

Do you not remember the Suzuki Samurai debacle?

BobVB
Jul 19, 2010, 03:30 AM
Its about truth. CR is supposed to be a non-profit agency that dispassionately evaluates products for consumer benefit. That means that they should care about what is true. CR says that the antenna issue is real and that they proved it, Apple says it is way overblown, that all cell phones suffer from the same issues, and that the CR tests were improperly done.
With the key feature being that Apple just blew smoke and didn't even bother to try and demonstrate what CR did. The ball is still in Apple's court - lets seem them do a 24 dBm drop of signal strength with a single finger in the normal holding area of any other cell phone. Until they do that CR need do nothing at all...

A chimp wouldn't have been fooled by that dog and pony show Apple put on.

macsmurf
Jul 19, 2010, 03:54 AM
So please tell us how to fix the signal degradation you get with any number of other smartphones by employing similar grips?

You can't. Laws of physics. What you can do is fix the issue that makes the iPhone perform worse than most of the other phones. Check out Anandtech.

You're either being willfully dense or you were just born that way. Either way, it don't see much point in continuing the discussion.

bobbytomorow
Jul 19, 2010, 04:04 AM
Apple needs to do a full out recall and swallow some losses.

Damn sure enough I will not buy an iphone 4, and I'm no hater I have 3 Apple PC's in the room I'm in right now, in my house. But selling broken equipment isn't cool.

I used to be die hard but after this disgrace, I'm not.

I hope they rectify this somehow.

igirlca
Jul 19, 2010, 05:42 AM
maybe in your parallel dimension ...
In the real world, Nexus One has less battery life than iPhone 3GS, as Anandtech proved a few days ago ...
LINK (http://www.anandtech.com/show/3791/the-sprint-htc-evo-4g-review/12)
sorry, extremely wrong here.


not wrong at all actually, the nexus one suffers from coverage issues in a lot of reviews because it's a tmobile phone. where i live and have great coverage from tmobile i get 2 days without any problem whatsoever. do your homework son.

igirlca
Jul 19, 2010, 05:45 AM
With the key feature being that Apple just blew smoke and didn't even bother to try and demonstrate what CR did. The ball is still in Apple's court - lets seem them do a 24 dBm drop of signal strength with a single finger in the normal holding area of any other cell phone. Until they do that CR need do nothing at all...

A chimp wouldn't have been fooled by that dog and pony show Apple put on.

this is a very good point. none of these other phones will exhibit that behavior because well, frankly, even tho the iphone has many great qualities, for years even, htc and rim have been at this a LOT longer. their build quality has always from day 1 of the iphone launch exceeded apples, sans a few crappy curve models. generally speaking htc makes devices other companies are jealous of. apple copied their candy bar design.

Eddyisgreat
Jul 19, 2010, 05:45 AM
Damn sure enough I will not buy an iphone 4, and I'm no hater I have 3 Apple PC's in the room I'm in right now, in my house.

Wait a minute, you don't even have an iPhone?

And what the hell is an Apple PC? (:rolleyes:)

anomie
Jul 19, 2010, 05:58 AM
Apple needs to do a full out recall and swallow some losses.

Damn sure enough I will not buy an iphone 4, and I'm no hater I have 3 Apple PC's in the room I'm in right now, in my house. But selling broken equipment isn't cool.

I used to be die hard but after this disgrace, I'm not.

I hope they rectify this somehow.

Apple "PC", yeah... And you do not even own an iphone. Sigh..

I hope they will not do a recall. Even the bumper thing is ridiculous.
I dontīt want my next iphone to cost 1000 Euros instead of 600 to cover a possible recall just because a few nerds cannont take their finger off the antenna although they already know it can weaken their reception.
Never had ANY problems in daily use.

Johns12
Jul 19, 2010, 06:36 AM
Some of you are all over the place with this issue.

1. Consumer Reports is a respected organization with as little bias as you can have (we are all human, I am sure there is some bias somewhere)

2. They recommended the original Iphone, the 3G, the 3Gs, and raved about the features in the 4, but stopped short of a recommendation because of their perceived antenna problems.

3. Obviously, not everyone has problems with reception, and for those that have no problem, this is a fantastic phone.

4. Obviously, some do have problems with reception, and for those that do, and love the phone and would like to keep it, they complain to and about Apple, in the hope that their issues can be fixed without the use of a bumper. Others just return it.

5. When Consumer Reports does not recommend a car model based on a below average reliability rating, this does not mean you shouldn't by the car. They have no power to stop you. It means they are giving you a heads up that there is a larger probability of problems. You may buy that model and experience no issues whatsoever.

My wife has a 3G and I have an Iphone 4. Holding both phones normally, standing next to each other, mine will go to searching for signal and hers will show 2 bars and complete a call. I still love the phone and will keep it, but there is a problem there for some people in some areas.

My previous phone was a Palm Treo and it never dropped a call from my house. The 4 does on occasion. It's just so good in so many other ways I am willing to put up with it.

SactoGuy18
Jul 19, 2010, 06:55 AM
People attacking Consumer Reports are making a big mistake. CR has found major defects in automobiles for years and have forced car manufacturers around the world to correct safety problems. They matter, and all major companies know it.

Even if Apple has a better testing lab (you know, the $100 million dollar thing + 18 engineers with PhDs) than CR, they don't have an unbiased agenda.

Everyone will be better off when Apple actually responds to CR and fixes the iP4.

There's also another question that (I find it strange) nobody asked: does the iPhone 4 have similar reception problems in Japan, the UK, Germany and France? Japan especially since in Japan and South Korea, cellphone towers are installed with essentially lots of more towers at lower transmitting power than the US practice, which is fewer cellphone towers at higher transmitting power. If the iPhone 4 does NOT have reception problems in Japan, that tells me the iPhone 4 was never properly tested with US cellphone tower configurations.

OllyW
Jul 19, 2010, 06:58 AM
There's also another question that (I find it strange) nobody asked: does the iPhone 4 have similar reception problems in Japan, the UK, Germany and France? Japan especially since in Japan and South Korea, cellphone towers are installed with essentially lots of more towers at lower transmitting power than the US practice, which is fewer cellphone towers at higher transmitting power. If the iPhone 4 does NOT have reception problems in Japan, that tells me the iPhone 4 was never properly tested with US cellphone tower configurations.

UK - Yes.

kernkraft
Jul 19, 2010, 02:48 PM
It is when it's used in a profane way.

Jesus Christ!!!

AidenShaw
Jul 19, 2010, 03:07 PM
Jesus Christ!!!

I'd post a picture of Muḥammad ibn ‘Abdullāh, but that could get me killed.

Christians are such wimps.... ;)

Treefu
Jul 19, 2010, 03:27 PM
Some of you are all over the place with this issue.
...
It's just so good in so many other ways I am willing to put up with it.

Good post. Apparently, and this isn't directed at you, having an iPhone 4 without problems isn't enough for some posters here... and some of them have been here a long time at that.

Even if you don't have a problem, why would you not want your phone's deficiency to be addressed? :confused:

-aggie-
Jul 19, 2010, 03:32 PM
Jesus Christ!!!

I'd post a picture of Muḥammad ibn ĎAbdullāh, but that could get me killed.

Christians are such wimps.... ;)

Remember, no h8, right? :)


FYI, kernkaft, I thought the poster giving you a hard time for using that expression was a little over the top.

Max(IT)
Jul 21, 2010, 08:54 PM
not wrong at all actually, the nexus one suffers from coverage issues in a lot of reviews because it's a tmobile phone. where i live and have great coverage from tmobile i get 2 days without any problem whatsoever. do your homework son.

Absolutely WRONG.
I linked an Anandtech review, you linked NOTHING. With all due respect, your words about "2 days" are useless. And the review (that you clearly didn't read), spoke also about wifi performance, so network coverage is not a factor. Nexus One is one of the worst phones of the batch, speaking about battery life.
I did my homework, what about you ?

DMann
Jul 22, 2010, 12:14 AM
Absolutely WRONG.
I linked an Anandtech review, you linked NOTHING. With all due respect, your words about "2 days" are useless. And the review (that you clearly didn't read), spoke also about wifi performance, so network coverage is not a factor. Nexus One is one of the worst phones of the batch, speaking about battery life.
I did my homework, what about you ?

It turns out that Nexus One has less going for it than poor battery life:

Google quietly kills its once-hyped Nexus One phone (http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/mobile/07/19/nexus.one.discontinued/index.html)

meatballs
Jul 22, 2010, 12:28 AM
It turns out that Nexus One has less going for it than poor battery life:

Google quietly kills its once-hyped Nexus One phone (http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/mobile/07/19/nexus.one.discontinued/index.html)

Maybe :apple: should follow suit.

Burger Thing
Jul 22, 2010, 12:53 AM
Maybe :apple: should follow suit.

Riiiiiight. I guess if Google had sold 3 Million+ of those in less than one month, then they wouldn't have felt the urge to pull the plug :p

meatballs
Jul 22, 2010, 01:14 AM
Riiiiiight. I guess if Google had sold 3 Million+ of those in less than one month, then they wouldn't have felt the urge to pull the plug :p

Apple has sold 3 million units based on lies. "Don't be evil" remember.

:cool:

DylanLikesPorn
Jul 22, 2010, 01:20 AM
Both of you are making me hungry.

DMann
Jul 22, 2010, 01:21 AM
Apple has sold 3 million units based on lies. "Don't be evil" remember.

:cool:

Apple has sold +3 million despite the callous lies made against them.

Dont be evil.

:cool:

mrochester
Jul 22, 2010, 01:26 AM
I don't get it? Apple didn't actually fix the antenna problem, so why is it such a shock that CR still doesn't recommend it? Free cases till the end of September is hardly a long-term fix they can go recommending to their readers.

RinoaHeartily
Jul 22, 2010, 02:05 AM
Both of you are making me hungry.

:D:D:D:D

hahahahaha same here!

meatballs
Jul 22, 2010, 03:01 AM
Apple has sold +3 million despite the callous lies made against them.

Dont be evil.

:cool:

Speaking like a true :apple: apologist. What lies have been made against :apple: and by who?

gehrbox
Jul 22, 2010, 06:05 AM
Apple has sold +3 million despite the callous lies made against them.

Dont be evil.

:cool:

I don't think they are callous lies. Seems more like overblown headlines for a minor issue to me.

Max(IT)
Jul 22, 2010, 08:28 AM
It turns out that Nexus One has less going for it than poor battery life:

Google quietly kills its once-hyped Nexus One phone (http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/mobile/07/19/nexus.one.discontinued/index.html)
Speaking about "customer satisfaction" ... :rolleyes:

I don't think they are callous lies. Seems more like overblown headlines for a minor issue to me.

Yep ;)
And it is more a behavior than a real issue to me. Once you know it, is really easy to avoid.

DMann
Jul 22, 2010, 09:19 AM
Speaking like a true :apple: apologist. What lies have been made against :apple: and by who?

Here's one for ya:

Apple has sold 3 million units based on lies.

Others:

"iPhone 4 is incapable of making a call"

"iPhone 4 is a total failure"

"iPhone 4 can't hold a signal"

"iPhone 4 can't hold a call"

the list goes on....

Mind you, the majority of them made are based on the experience of bloggers who don't own one.

Burger Thing
Jul 22, 2010, 09:35 AM
Apple has sold 3 million units based on lies. "Don't be evil" remember.

:cool:

Drama much?

Well, the cards are on the table. The media was so full of the Antenna Issue that even the most isolated Eskimo must have heard of it. Let's see if the sales of the iPhone 4 will slow down significantly or already bought iPhone will be returned in masses. I bet a beer and a burger (or some IKEA meetballs if you wish) that both won't happen :)

But my prediction is, that in future will see more of those overhyped media blowouts. The more successful Apple becomes, the more it will be in the center of the media. And lots of Techbloggers or Journalists will ride the bandwagon for some minutes of fame, trying to fault their products.

What amazes me most, though, that people seem to be so full of anger here on this forum. About what exactly? About some computer stuff? More amazingly exactly those people often refer to the iPods, iPhones, etc as the iToys or iCrap, bla bla... I really dunno, but I find it hard to believe that people can get so upset then about some "toys". Reading through various threads one could get the impression that some are so filled with hatred, that they can't even think or walk straight anymore.

Then, of course, we have those individuals who are just here to stir and bait. People who call themselves grown ups but for years already basically contributing negativity here in MR. Every normal and sensible person would come to the conclusion, that if you don't like a company, its values, its products, etc, you would move on and find a more suitable forum. If I liked BMW, I wouldn't waste my time in a Mercedes Benz Forum. But that issue, particularly about one "famous" individual here, has been raised or questioned on many occasions by countless forum members before and shall remain a mystery :rolleyes:

Max(IT)
Jul 22, 2010, 11:42 AM
Drama much?

Well, the cards are on the table. The media was so full of the Antenna Issue that even the most isolated Eskimo must have heard of it. Let's see if the sales of the iPhone 4 will slow down significantly or already bought iPhone will be returned in masses. I bet a beer and a burger (or some IKEA meetballs if you wish) that both won't happen :)

But my prediction is, that in future will see more of those overhyped media blowouts. The more successful Apple becomes, the more it will be in the center of the media. And lots of Techbloggers or Journalists will ride the bandwagon for some minutes of fame, trying to fault their products.

What amazes me most, though, that people seem to be so full of anger here on this forum. About what exactly? About some computer stuff? More amazingly exactly those people often refer to the iPods, iPhones, etc as the iToys or iCrap, bla bla... I really dunno, but I find it hard to believe that people can get so upset then about some "toys". Reading through various threads one could get the impression that some are so filled with hatred, that they can't even think or walk straight anymore.

Then, of course, we have those individuals who are just here to stir and bait. People who call themselves grown ups but for years already basically contributing negativity here in MR. Every normal and sensible person would come to the conclusion, that if you don't like a company, its values, its products, etc, you would move on and find a more suitable forum. If I liked BMW, I wouldn't waste my time in a Mercedes Benz Forum. But that issue, particularly about one "famous" individual here, has been raised or questioned on many occasions by countless forum members before and shall remain a mystery :rolleyes:

Absolutely right, in every word.
In a couple of days, Apple will open iPhone 4 to another 17 big markets. And it will be another huge commercial success. But haters are not going to change their mind about that, even if 10 mln customers are going to enjoy their iPhone 4 without bring it back.

meatballs
Jul 22, 2010, 12:25 PM
"iPhone 4 is incapable of making a call"

"iPhone 4 is a total failure"

"iPhone 4 can't hold a signal"

"iPhone 4 can't hold a call"

the list goes on....

Mind you, the majority of them made are based on the experience of bloggers who don't own one.

Hadn't :apple: already sold 3 million units before Consumer Reports?

:apple: lied to us during the keynote on how great their new antenna was. They already knew about "the flaw" but neglected to tell us, the PC proves they knew. :apple: then lied to us again during the PC when they compared the iP4 to those other phones, they knew very well that those phones don't suffer from "the flaw".

-aggie-
Jul 22, 2010, 12:39 PM
Hadn't :apple: already sold 3 million units before Consumer Reports?

:apple: lied to us during the keynote on how great their new antenna was. They already knew about "the flaw" but neglected to tell us, the PC proves they knew. :apple: then lied to us again during the PC when they compared the iP4 to those other phones, they knew very well that those phones don't suffer from "the flaw".

Do you own an iPhone 4?

Max(IT)
Jul 22, 2010, 12:56 PM
Hadn't :apple: already sold 3 million units before Consumer Reports?

:apple: lied to us during the keynote on how great their new antenna was. They already knew about "the flaw" but neglected to tell us, the PC proves they knew. :apple: then lied to us again during the PC when they compared the iP4 to those other phones, they knew very well that those phones don't suffer from "the flaw".

Except there is no flaw, antenna actually IS more sensible than any previous and other phones, almost EVERY OTHER, show the same behavior .... and you probably don't have an iPhone 4 ;)

cmaier
Jul 22, 2010, 01:02 PM
Except there is no flaw, antenna actually IS more sensible than any previous and other phones, almost EVERY OTHER, show the same behavior .... and you probably don't have an iPhone 4 ;)

Of course there's a flaw. Stop being disingenuous.

GoodWatch
Jul 22, 2010, 01:18 PM
Except there is no flaw, antenna actually IS more sensible than any previous and other phones, almost EVERY OTHER, show the same behavior .... and you probably don't have an iPhone 4 ;)

Name ONE other (smart) phone with a bare antenna, exposed to be touched by the user. Just one. Or are you just a troll? :confused:

LEStudios
Jul 22, 2010, 05:01 PM
Usually if somebody say I'm not bias without you asking they really are lying. :D

Max(IT)
Jul 22, 2010, 09:28 PM
Name ONE other (smart) phone with a bare antenna, exposed to be touched by the user. Just one. Or are you just a troll? :confused:

and exactly WHO decides a bare antenna is a defect ? Do you know what "signal to noise ratio" means ? Probably not ...
Do you think to be smarter than 18 RF engineers working at that "defective bare antenna" ?

The same behavior is present on almost every smartphone, and they don't have an exposed antenna.
So, again, there is NO FLAW to be fixed. It's a trade off, and in my experience with the iphone 4 you can actually make calls in places where other phones (3GS) just can't.

And what about your iphone 4 ? Don't tell me you too don't have one ... :rolleyes:

BTW nice try to call me a troll, when a 5 seconds research about YOUR post here show us what is your attitude AGAINST Apple and Jobs ;)

PerfSeeker
Jul 22, 2010, 09:29 PM
and exactly WHO decides a bare antenna is a defect ? Do you know what "signal to noise ratio" means ? Probably not ...
Do you think to be smarter than 18 RF engineers working at that "defective bare antenna" ?

The same behavior is present on almost every smartphone, and they don't have an exposed antenna.
So, again, there is NO FLAW to be fixed. It's a trade off, and in my experience with the iphone 4 you can actually make calls in places where other phones (3GS) just can't.

When you specifically have to obsess every moment about NOT touching that gap, it's a FLAW. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Max(IT)
Jul 22, 2010, 09:37 PM
When you specifically have to obsess every moment about NOT touching that gap, it's a FLAW. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

uao, another "june/july 2010 guy" who can't avoid to touch THAT EXACT SPOT on his phone .... :D

Do you own an iphone 4 ? I can assure you it's not that difficult to avoid that. Actually the only way to touch it, in my case, is ON PURPOSE ...

cmaier
Jul 22, 2010, 09:57 PM
uao, another "june/july 2010 guy" who can't avoid to touch THAT EXACT SPOT on his phone .... :D

Do you own an iphone 4 ? I can assure you it's not that difficult to avoid that. Actually the only way to touch it, in my case, is ON PURPOSE ...

I own two. It's ridiculously easy to touch it in that spot. It's nearly impossible NOT to when using the 3G data connection. Steve Jobs holds it that way in every photo of him holding the phone.

Quit making stuff up.

Max(IT)
Jul 23, 2010, 03:45 AM
I own two. It's ridiculously easy to touch it in that spot. It's nearly impossible NOT to when using the 3G data connection. Steve Jobs holds it that way in every photo of him holding the phone.

Quit making stuff up.

It's not easy at all, ESPECIALLY when using "3G data connection" because you need the finger to be free to travel around the screen.

Quit whining about a non-issue

Hilmi Hamidi
Jul 23, 2010, 03:59 AM
And yet millions of people don't care what what Consumer Reports said and continue buying the phone like there's no tomorrow.

diamond.g
Jul 23, 2010, 06:09 AM
It's not easy at all, ESPECIALLY when using "3G data connection" because you need the finger to be free to travel around the screen.

Quit whining about a non-issue

That is only true if you hold it in your right hand. If you hold it in your left you can have a problem.

Max(IT)
Jul 23, 2010, 06:51 AM
That is only true if you hold it in your right hand. If you hold it in your left you can have a problem.

This is how i handle it, with my left hand:

http://www.iphoner.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/094646-iphone-4-japon-applesfera.jpg

Fingertips, NOT palm. No way I can touch that spot if I don't want to.
BTW, people could handle it in a different way, I know (I'm speaking about honest customer, not the trolls all over the forum), so the choice is quite simple: could you change the way you hold it? Ok, easy to do and you will have a great smartphone.
Couldn't you ? Ok, bring it back to the store and choose another smartphone. But be advised: if you hold it with the palm, you are going to see attenuation with almost every smartphone out there.

Max(IT)
Jul 23, 2010, 06:55 AM
And yet millions of people don't care what what Consumer Reports said and continue buying the phone like there's no tomorrow.

Next week there will be others millions of people don't even know what Consumer Report is, in the new 17 countries Apple is going to release iPhone 4. :D

diamond.g
Jul 23, 2010, 07:08 AM
This is how i handle it, with my left hand:

http://www.iphoner.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/094646-iphone-4-japon-applesfera.jpg

Fingertips, NOT palm. No way I can touch that spot if I don't want to.
BTW, people could handle it in a different way, I know (I'm speaking about honest customer, not the trolls all over the forum), so the choice is quite simple: could you change the way you hold it? Ok, easy to do and you will have a great smartphone.
Couldn't you ? Ok, bring it back to the store and choose another smartphone. But be advised: if you hold it with the palm, you are going to see attenuation with almost every smartphone out there.

That doesn't look comfortable for internet surfing. It would work for phone calls though. I am at work right now so I can't take a picture of how I hold it for internet surfing.

bruinsrme
Jul 23, 2010, 07:11 AM
I haven't read Consumer Reports in years; they are no longer relevant. Car dealers laugh at their recommendations on car prices. I certainly would not follow their recommendations about whether to buy an iPhone....maybe a toaster or a blender.

Hmmm having recently purchased a new car CR was the most comprehensive pricing guide available. The car dealers laugh at those reports because they are unrealistic. Unrealistic that a car dealer will actually be willing to sell you a vehicle at that price.
CR prices are well within 1% of what Edmunds, KBB, and other sites provide, CR just provides a far more detailed report on all the options in each model and a more detailed pricing of accessories.
Of course the dealer will laugh at you and tell you that they can't sell you a car at that price, why because they won't make money. Ask them for the best price based on the CR numbers and I guarantee you it will be $1200 to $1500 higher.

diamond.g
Jul 23, 2010, 07:43 AM
I certainly would not follow their recommendations about whether to buy an iPhone....maybe a toaster or a blender.

There are only two blenders that people should buy. Either a Blentec blender or a Vitamix blender. You don't need CR for that (every other blender is pretty much garbage).

BobVB
Jul 23, 2010, 07:54 AM
This is how i handle it, with my left hand:

http://www.iphoner.it/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/094646-iphone-4-japon-applesfera.jpg

Fingertips, NOT palm.
What sane person holds an expensive item like that like they were a princess or a friggin' mutant ninja turtle? Not steve jobs, not the people in Apple ads. Why would any phone be designed to specifically be able to not be held like every other phone before it - phone's center of gravity at the center of the grip?
Ok, bring it back to the store and choose another smartphone. But be advised: if you hold it with the palm, you are going to see attenuation with almost every smartphone out there.
No they don't - the 'dropped bar' dog and pony show that Apple has put out has nothing to do with the iP4's problem, but Job's knows that and presumptively so do you. That's why we aren't seeing decibel drops reported, that's why they didn't compare it to the phone it was sold as an upgrade to, the iPhone 3GS.

The problem is it drops calls when held normally, not that it 'drops bars'. CR got a 24 dBm drop which means merely touching the phone in one spot makes the usable signal power drop to 1/250th of what it was before that single touch. This is not the typical mass attenuation caused by putting it in a fleshy Faraday cage but the external antenna being rendered useless by a mere touch. Its a design flaw that they could have fixed merely by making bridging of the two antenna's impossible by coating them with just about anything - they didn't because their flawed testing procedures missed detecting the flaw until it was too late.

Now they are giving away plastic bumpers that aren't sold for increased reception or as phone protection but merely as 'decorative statements' that render Apple's own accessories unusable.

The complaints are legitimate, the solutions proposed are lame, and no one should have to hold their phone like they were a cartoon character just to get it to work reliably. CR is right in their assessment and their recommendations. I'm recommending people should get a 3GS and wait for the iPhone 5.

Johns12
Jul 23, 2010, 08:23 AM
The issue is dropped calls not lower bars. Most here should know that and arguing that other smartphones have this problem is not correct. I own and Iphone 4 (on my second one) and love the phone, but this and the proximity sensor are problems. Not for everyone (can we make this clear, not everyone has a problem) but for some. Holding the phone any way other than what is comfortable for YOU should not be a solution.

Also, those saying the phone is no good, fail, unable to hold a signal, etc, have had too much coffee and are being overly dramatic. Maybe they should audition for community theater.

cmaier
Jul 23, 2010, 09:26 AM
And yet millions of people don't care what what Consumer Reports said and continue buying the phone like there's no tomorrow.

They haven't sold more than a million since the CR debacle.

Max(IT)
Jul 23, 2010, 12:04 PM
That doesn't look comfortable for internet surfing. It would work for phone calls though. I am at work right now so I can't take a picture of how I hold it for internet surfing.
Actually for web surfing I use it in landscape mode. And again, avoid touching that particular spot is not a problem at all.

What sane person holds an expensive item like that like they were a princess or a friggin' mutant ninja turtle? Not steve jobs, not the people in Apple ads. Why would any phone be designed to specifically be able to not be held like every other phone before it - phone's center of gravity at the center of the grip?

omg, save me that bs about the phone's centre of gravity :rolleyes:
It a 100 gr device ...
I am a sane person, and I'm holding ANY PHONE with fingertips. There is NO written rules about how to hold a phone, and I can show you hundred of pictures of people holding a phone with fingertips.
EVERY FRIGGIN' Phone Has an antenna in the rear low sector, due to FCC regulations, so if you grip it in that silly way you are going to experience attenuation. Deal with it.

No they don't - the 'dropped bar' dog and pony show that Apple has put out has nothing to do with the iP4's problem, but Job's knows that and presumptively so do you. That's why we aren't seeing decibel drops reported, that's why they didn't compare it to the phone it was sold as an upgrade to, the iPhone 3GS.

the fact is that iPhone 4 could phone where iPhone 3GS couldn't, due to its more sensible antenna.
Who cares about decibels when the iPhone 4 can handle call at a lower signal level ?


The problem is it drops calls when held normally, not that it 'drops bars'. CR got a 24 dBm drop which means merely touching the phone in one spot makes the usable signal power drop to 1/250th of what it was before that single touch. This is not the typical mass attenuation caused by putting it in a fleshy Faraday cage but the external antenna being rendered useless by a mere touch. Its a design flaw that they could have fixed merely by making bridging of the two antenna's impossible by coating them with just about anything - they didn't because their flawed testing procedures missed detecting the flaw until it was too late.

Now they are giving away plastic bumpers that aren't sold for increased reception or as phone protection but merely as 'decorative statements' that render Apple's own accessories unusable.

The complaints are legitimate, the solutions proposed are lame, and no one should have to hold their phone like they were a cartoon character just to get it to work reliably. CR is right in their assessment and their recommendations. I'm recommending people should get a 3GS and wait for the iPhone 5.
no,no, and no again.
iPhone 4 DOESN'T drop calls if you hold it in a normal way.
It MAY drops calls if you are using a crappy network AND if you are in a low signal area AND you are covering the antenna with your hand.
You bashers are continuously describing iPhone 4 as if it is a phone that can't handle a call.
That's a lie !!!!
They haven't sold more than a million since the CR debacle.

And do you have any evidence of what you are saying or is just your wish ?

gehrbox
Jul 23, 2010, 05:58 PM
They haven't sold more than a million since the CR debacle.

And your source for this information is...?

cmaier
Jul 23, 2010, 06:03 PM
And your source for this information is...?

Common sense. At the press conference they said they had sold over 3 million, in the entire time since launch. Do you think they sold yet another million in the week since then? That would be extraordinary.

iUser4Lyfe
Jul 23, 2010, 06:07 PM
Common sense. At the press conference they said they had sold over 3 million, in the entire time since launch. Do you think they sold yet another million in the week since then? That would be extraordinary.


Damn, I was kinda hoping you had actual facts to back up your assertions. But really all you did was show you don't know what "Common sense" means..

cmaier
Jul 23, 2010, 06:13 PM
Damn, I was kinda hoping you had actual facts to back up your assertions. But really all you did was show you don't know what "Common sense" means..

It took them a month to sell 3 million, but you think they sold more than a million the next week?

gehrbox
Jul 23, 2010, 07:05 PM
It took them a month to sell 3 million, but you think they sold more than a million the next week?

Apples said over 3M, it's likely the data was not fresh from that morning. Take into account they have sold every phone they can make, are increasing the number of markets receiving the phones and generally as production ramps up it's efficiency improves.

Common sense would dictate not to put an antenna in a place that directly contacts your hand. Does not seem to be universally applied, even by scientists.

iUser4Lyfe
Jul 23, 2010, 07:54 PM
It took them a month to sell 3 million, but you think they sold more than a million the next week?

I think if they haven't it's because they can't make them fast enough. Do you not understand EVERY iPhone 4 that has been made has been sold?

cmaier
Jul 23, 2010, 08:13 PM
I think if they haven't it's because they can't make them fast enough. Do you not understand EVERY iPhone 4 that has been made has been sold?

That isn't the point. Someone said they'd sold millions since the CR debacle. My point is that is not true. It's a factual inaccuracy.

meatballs
Jul 23, 2010, 09:43 PM
Fingertips, NOT palm. No way I can touch that spot if I don't want to.
BTW, people could handle it in a different way, I know (I'm speaking about honest customer, not the trolls all over the forum), so the choice is quite simple: could you change the way you hold it? Ok, easy to do and you will have a great smartphone.
Couldn't you ? Ok, bring it back to the store and choose another smartphone. But be advised: if you hold it with the palm, you are going to see attenuation with almost every smartphone out there.

You shouldn't have to hold your phone like a petri dish. Also, confusing bridging the antennas (iP4) with attenuation (other phones) makes you look uninformed.

Next week there will be others millions of people don't even know what Consumer Report is, in the new 17 countries Apple is going to release iPhone 4. :D

That doesn't matter, "Antenna gate" became world news over night because of CRs non-recommendation.

charlituna
Jul 24, 2010, 12:31 AM
No they don't - the 'dropped bar' dog and pony show that Apple has put out has nothing to do with the iP4's problem,



of course not. The point if the 'dog and pony show' as you call it is to show that this is not a unique issue to the iphone 4 as has been implied by some venues. It happens to all phones, particularly smart phones.

The catch in this 'issue' is that the bars don't equal reception quality. I can walk across my room and the bars jump up and down. I'm driving down the street and the bars are all over the place. I can have my phone sitting on the counter and a semi rolls by and the bars drop. But my calls don't drop or fail. Probably because I'm in an area with great ATT service.

My cousin on the other hand, lives in freaking San Fran. A well known crap spot. He has 5 bars all the time but the towers are overloaded that his calls drop a lot. Like 3-4 times a day. doesn't matter if he's on an iphone, a blackberry or even an idiot Nokia. He is giving up and switching to T-Mobile so his calls will go through. When ATT gets it together he'll consider going back and get the iphone 4.

And this is how it has been for a lot of folks. only a fraction of those with the bar dropping 'defect' are actually unable to make calls. And they are pretty much all in crap ATT zones.

But as Jobs said, there is a perception that the bars equal reception quality and thus a lot of folks think they have an issue that needs fixing and the solution they have been convinced is a case. So it's cheaper and easier to just give them a case and be done with it. So they are. For the few that really have ****** reception, they were reminded that they can return the phone in 30 days with no penalties such as an open box fee or ETF. And in between the lines is the recommendation that they do.

CR is right in their assessment and their recommendations.

Hell yeah they were right. As they said 'in areas with weak reception'. Or to put it another way 'if ATT is **** in your area don't buy an iphone 4 cause it will still be **** in your area (in fact don't be on ATT)'. It's a valid and logical recommendation

-aggie-
Jul 24, 2010, 12:37 AM
You shouldn't have to hold your phone like a petri dish. Also, confusing bridging the antennas (iP4) with attenuation (other phones) makes you look uninformed.



That doesn't matter, "Antenna gate" became world news over night because of CRs non-recommendation.

I hold my phone in my palm, and in places with only 1-2 bars my signal doesn't drop ever. This is really not a problem for most people.

mrochester
Jul 24, 2010, 01:57 AM
That isn't the point. Someone said they'd sold millions since the CR debacle. My point is that is not true. It's a factual inaccuracy.

That's a hoot since you're assertions are based on 'common sense'. Maybe you'd like to show us the accurate facts then?

Max(IT)
Jul 24, 2010, 04:19 AM
You shouldn't have to hold your phone like a petri dish. Also, confusing bridging the antennas (iP4) with attenuation (other phones) makes you look uninformed.

Keep speaking about "bridging" just because someone told you here, doesn't make you smarter.
You are not "bridging" anything with you hand (unless it is completely wet). You are just attenuating the signal ...

Please, people, stop speaking about things you don't understand.

BobVB
Jul 24, 2010, 10:33 AM
of course not. The point if the 'dog and pony show' as you call it is to show that this is not a unique issue to the iphone 4 as has been implied by some venues. It happens to all phones, particularly smart phones.
No they have not shown a single video where a single touch with a finger tip causes a 20+ dBm drop like the iPhone 4 does, that common mass attenuation and single finger touching are in anyway similar is the 'Big Lie' that Jobs is telling to mask the truth.

his calls drop a lot. Like 3-4 times a day. doesn't matter if he's on an iphone, a blackberry or even an idiot Nokia. He is giving up and switching to T-Mobile so his calls will go through. When ATT gets it together he'll consider going back and get the iphone 4.
Which has nothing to do with the legitimate complaint of people that had 3GS in the exact same locations and never had a problem until the iPhone 4.

And they are pretty much all in crap ATT zones.
more of the 'Big Lie' - with 4.0 I was dropping 5 bar calls, with 4.01 I'm dropping 4 bar calls. If anything less than 5 bars is 'crap' then that's a phone problem. I didn't see any videos to figure out there was something wrong with the phone, the non-techies that called me to ask why their new 1 day old phone was dropping calls didn't need to either. If this is an industry problem let's see the apple videos with the 3GS dropping bars with a single touch, eh?

they were reminded that they can return the phone in 30 days with no penalties such as an open box fee or ETF.
which wasn't true for anyone who didn't get their phone from Apple, and doesn't absolve them from the responsibility of producing a quality product anyway. Again a phone that squanders over 250 fold of the signal power with a single touch in a normal holding spot (which is what a 24 dBm drop like CU got is) especially when that could have been avoided by just coating the stainless is a design flaw, plain and simple. Lying to try and cover it up is wrong, also plain and simple.

BobVB
Jul 24, 2010, 10:37 AM
You are not "bridging" anything with you hand (unless it is completely wet). You are just attenuating the signal...
a single finger doesn't have the mass to do it, if it was attenuation then a bumper case wouldn't significantly change it.

Please, people, stop speaking about things you don't understand.
people have been saying the same to you for days but you're still misrepresenting the situation. Until Apple shows a single finger touch on any of these other phones causing a 20+ dBm signal strength drop it's just more of the 'Big Lie' Jobs is selling and the fools are buying.

CQd44
Jul 24, 2010, 04:29 PM
I'm surprised people are still confusing bridging antennas with attenuation.

Making people conform to a phone is silly. What next? Design a car you have to drive differently and if you try to drive it like any other car it suddenly brakes?

Max(IT)
Jul 24, 2010, 08:10 PM
a single finger doesn't have the mass to do it, if it was attenuation then a bumper case wouldn't significantly change it.


people have been saying the same to you for days but you're still misrepresenting the situation. Until Apple shows a single finger touch on any of these other phones causing a 20+ dBm signal strength drop it's just more of the 'Big Lie' Jobs is selling and the fools are buying.

I'm surprised people are still confusing bridging antennas with attenuation.

Making people conform to a phone is silly. What next? Design a car you have to drive differently and if you try to drive it like any other car it suddenly brakes?

and again: you are not bridging anything with an hand (or a finger).
Your hand is not made of steel ...
You are detuning/attenuating the antenna, like you do in any other phone.

and again: yes, you lost 20 dB on the iphone, because the antenna is external, BUT you have an antenna much more sensible than any other, so sensible that it can manage to make a call at -121 dB, when any other phone just report "no signal". It's a trade off.

and again: stop speaking about things you don't understand, repeating something read on a forum :rolleyes:


BTW, this is what happen when you use a decent 3G network instead than a crap one (note that the signal strenght is medium to poor, but you can drop no more than 1-2 bars touching the antenna).
World doesn't end in the USA ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EfawQj-Rto&feature=youtube_gdata

-aggie-
Jul 24, 2010, 10:29 PM
a single finger doesn't have the mass to do it, if it was attenuation then a bumper case wouldn't significantly change it.


people have been saying the same to you for days but you're still misrepresenting the situation. Until Apple shows a single finger touch on any of these other phones causing a 20+ dBm signal strength drop it's just more of the 'Big Lie' Jobs is selling and the fools are buying.

Where are the lines of all these unhappy people returning their iPhone 4ís that donít work because theyíre touching a certain spot or holding it the wrong way?

marksman
Jul 24, 2010, 10:54 PM
And yet millions of people don't care what what Consumer Reports said and continue buying the phone like there's no tomorrow.

Seriously. I wanted to get another one and Apple Online is telling me at least 3 weeks until I can get one. WTH.

This on top of the fact that lots of people are holding off to get a white one. The demand for this phone is amazing, given the claims some people make about it.

nookster
Jul 25, 2010, 05:31 AM
Where are the lines of all these unhappy people returning their iPhone 4ís that donít work because theyíre touching a certain spot or holding it the wrong way?

Unlikely to see that, there was no specific handset return event day, as opposed to a launch day.

Maybe Apple could have organised a return event where they un-high five you as you walk out.

PerfSeeker
Jul 25, 2010, 11:15 AM
Seriously. I wanted to get another one and Apple Online is telling me at least 3 weeks until I can get one. WTH.

This on top of the fact that lots of people are holding off to get a white one. The demand for this phone is amazing, given the claims some people make about it.

Why do you need 2 mobile phones?

Max(IT)
Jul 25, 2010, 01:36 PM
Why do you need 2 mobile phones?

And what's wrong with that ?!?
I'm using two phones (iPhone and an Acer Android at this time) since 2001 ....
One with a personal contract and the other with a corporate plan.

-aggie-
Jul 25, 2010, 01:41 PM
Unlikely to see that, there was no specific handset return event day, as opposed to a launch day.

Maybe Apple could have organised a return event where they un-high five you as you walk out.

There were lots of people who didnít pre-order and waited in line on June 24 and June 29. The return date for the pre-orders and June 24 buyers passed. There was no media coverage of any of this. The June 29th buyers date will be passed in a few days.

cmaier
Jul 25, 2010, 02:28 PM
There were lots of people who didnít pre-order and waited in line on June 24 and June 29. The return date for the pre-orders and June 24 buyers passed. There was no media coverage of any of this. The June 29th buyers date will be passed in a few days.

Its not like everyone waited until the thirtieth day.

nookster
Jul 25, 2010, 05:14 PM
There were lots of people who didnít pre-order and waited in line on June 24 and June 29. The return date for the pre-orders and June 24 buyers passed. There was no media coverage of any of this. The June 29th buyers date will be passed in a few days.

Exactly, we were never going to see everyone funnelled into an un-launch day.

-aggie-
Jul 25, 2010, 05:31 PM
Its not like everyone waited until the thirtieth day.

You still believe loads of people were returning their iPhones this month? Jeez.

cmaier
Jul 25, 2010, 09:56 PM
You still believe loads of people were returning their iPhones this month? Jeez.

The difference between you and me is I admit I have no idea.

Max(IT)
Jul 26, 2010, 02:48 PM
The difference between you and me is I admit I have no idea.

Are you serious ?!? :confused:

People are desperately trying TO BUY ONE, not to bring it back ...

Eddyisgreat
Jul 26, 2010, 03:19 PM
Are you serious ?!? :confused:

People are desperately trying TO BUY ONE, not to bring it back ...

Clealy you didn't see all those "POST HERE IF YOU BROUGHT YOUR iPHONR 4 BACK RAWR!!!" threads that popped up in the forum ever so often .

Of course, they never really garnered any attention but made for some good laughs.

BobVB
Jul 26, 2010, 07:54 PM
and again: you are not bridging anything with an hand (or a finger).
Your hand is not made of steel ...
I mean how do I respond to that? If you are bright enough to type on the internet you are bright enough to know that flesh is electrically conductive. I have to assume you are being deliberately obtuse.

You are detuning/attenuating the antenna, like you do in any other phone.
Again, if this true you could 'detune' other phones with a single finger - not a single video showing it. I again assume you are being deliberately obtuse.

and again: yes, you lost 20 dB on the iphone, because the antenna is external
Again, it seems like you are pretending you have no idea what attenuation is - if it was attenuation it wouldn't matter if the antenna was internal or external - that happens because your very much electrically conductive flesh acts as a fleshy Faraday cage, if you could touch the antenna or not that would make no significant difference IF that was the cause. That's why we know its not in this case.

Again, antenna attenuation will not happen with a single touch of a fingertip. The issues you get when you hold a phone tightly with a relatively large mass of flesh and when you can cause signal loss because of the touch of a single finger are two very different things. No matter how many times you pretend they are the same you just embarrass yourself every single time.

and again: stop speaking about things you don't understand, repeating something read on a forum :rolleyes:
and again, if you would take your own advice you wouldn't be posting at all.

MorphingDragon
Jul 26, 2010, 08:22 PM
I mean how do I respond to that? If you are bright enough to type on the internet you are bright enough to know that flesh is electrically conductive. I have to assume you are being deliberately obtuse.


It is electrically conductive, but the resistance is measures in the megaohms.

cmaier
Jul 26, 2010, 08:49 PM
It is electrically conductive, but the resistance is measures in the megaohms.

Clean skin is about 500 ohms. It's also a capacitive connection.

BobVB
Jul 26, 2010, 09:33 PM
It is electrically conductive, but the resistance is measures in the megaohms.

Again, why do denialists think they can make things up? You can use your toe to your finger to complete the circuit on a battery driven LED and make it light. How does anyone even mildly interested in electronics miss learning the fact that the human body conducts electricity just fine?

Max(IT)
Jul 27, 2010, 03:46 AM
I mean how do I respond to that? If you are bright enough to type on the internet you are bright enough to know that flesh is electrically conductive. I have to assume you are being deliberately obtuse.


Again, if this true you could 'detune' other phones with a single finger - not a single video showing it. I again assume you are being deliberately obtuse.


Again, it seems like you are pretending you have no idea what attenuation is - if it was attenuation it wouldn't matter if the antenna was internal or external - that happens because your very much electrically conductive flesh acts as a fleshy Faraday cage, if you could touch the antenna or not that would make no significant difference IF that was the cause. That's why we know its not in this case.

Again, antenna attenuation will not happen with a single touch of a fingertip. The issues you get when you hold a phone tightly with a relatively large mass of flesh and when you can cause signal loss because of the touch of a single finger are two very different things. No matter how many times you pretend they are the same you just embarrass yourself every single time.


and again, if you would take your own advice you wouldn't be posting at all.

Again, why do denialists think they can make things up? You can use your toe to your finger to complete the circuit on a battery driven LED and make it light. How does anyone even mildly interested in electronics miss learning the fact that the human body conducts electricity just fine?

And you clearly don't know what are you speaking about, keep repeating something you read on the forum, OR you are just making things up on purpose to bash iPhone ...
We all know human body can conducts electricity (with a notable resistance) due to its composition, but we are speaking about antennas and very little power here.
So, again, NO , you are not bridging anything with you finger, and YES , the effect you saw on the iPhone is quite similar to the one you can see on every other phone.
But keep bashing, we all know is cool ...

Ps: try to put a finger on the top "gap" between the two antennas. You should "bridge" them in the same way, but IT DOESNT HAPPEN. Because you are not bridging anything with your finger ...

BobVB
Jul 27, 2010, 10:06 AM
And you clearly don't know what are you speaking about, keep repeating something you read on the forum, OR you are just making things up on purpose to bash iPhone ...
What's clear is you don't know what you are talking about - any bit of flesh will cause the bridging, even flesh that isn't connected to your body. As we all know that is not mass attenuation.

We all know human body can conducts electricity (with a notable resistance) due to its composition, but we are speaking about antennas and very little power here.
And yet in just the previous note you acted like the human body would have to be like 'steel' to have the bridging effect. Again, the skin is a very effective conductor - you can complete the circuit of a low power LED by holding it in your hand, connect it to a battery and connect the other terminal to your toe. Waffling around the idea that it can't bridge electrically a gap that is a millimeter wide is funny in the extreme since every single person on earth who has actually worked with low power electronics knows you are wrong.

What's clear is you either have no practical experience with electronics or you are just trolling, I am prone to the latter.

Ps: try to put a finger on the top "gap" between the two antennas. You should "bridge" them in the same way, but IT DOESNT HAPPEN. Because you are not bridging anything with your finger ...[/B]
The antenna is already internally grounded out at the lower right side, FCC regulations wouldn't allow the signal UMTS signal to be radiating off the top portion of the phone. Yes again its that electronic thing, all ends of a bit of metal connected in multiple spots are not equal. ;)

Max(IT)
Jul 27, 2010, 02:25 PM
What's clear is you don't know what you are talking about - any bit of flesh will cause the bridging, even flesh that isn't connected to your body. As we all know that is not mass attenuation.

no,you can't bridge the two antennas with a finger, and so far NO ONE demonstrated it.
This is just geek's forum bs ...

Who REALLY knows about RF or low-power electronic, speak about attenuation and detuning.


And yet in just the previous note you acted like the human body would have to be like 'steel' to have the bridging effect. Again, the skin is a very effective conductor - you can complete the circuit of a low power LED by holding it in your hand, connect it to a battery and connect the other terminal to your toe. Waffling around the idea that it can't bridge electrically a gap that is a millimeter wide is funny in the extreme since every single person on earth who has actually worked with low power electronics knows you are wrong.

Yes, to bridge two antennas in an effective way, with that low power, you have to use metal ...
And your led circuit example is futile ...


What's clear is you either have no practical experience with electronics or you are just trolling, I am prone to the latter.
the troll here is you, speaking about something you don't understand, just repeating something you read on a forum, with the sole purpose of bashing iPhone 4.


The antenna is already internally grounded out at the lower right side, FCC regulations wouldn't allow the signal UMTS signal to be radiating off the top portion of the phone. Yes again its that electronic thing, all ends of a bit of metal connected in multiple spots are not equal. ;)

the antenna is A SINGLE PIECE OF METAL, as you can easily see in every picture. If you could "bridge" it in the lower left gap, you definitely can do the same thing in the upper left gap.
Except it doesn't happen. Guess what? You are not bridging ANYTHING with your finger.

BobVB
Jul 27, 2010, 02:48 PM
no,you can't bridge the two antennas with a finger, and so far NO ONE demonstrated it.
This is just geek's forum bs
Ok, that is exactly what the CR video demonstrates...
You know nothing about electronics, you obviously have no practical experience with electronics, and now we know you haven't even bothered to know the subject the thread is about so there really is no point in correcting you further.

Max(IT)
Jul 27, 2010, 05:31 PM
Ok, that is exactly what the CR video demonstrates...
You know nothing about electronics, you obviously have no practical experience with electronics, and now we know you haven't even bothered to know the subject the thread is about so there really is no point in correcting you further.

CR video ONLY demonstrated attenuation or detuning, NOTHING like bridging ...

And this video shows you that it is NETWORK DEPENDENT, and has nothing to do with bridging : FUD about bridging (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EfawQj-Rto&feature=youtube_gdata)

If it was bridging, than explain me why it's not happening in that video. But you can't, obviously, because you don't know what are you speaking about ...

BobVB
Jul 27, 2010, 07:04 PM
If it was bridging, than explain me why it's not happening in that video. But you can't, obviously, because you don't know what are you speaking about ...
Again, your confusion makes no sense. That one network signal can be so strong it gets 5 bars even without a functional antenna and another not is well known - that video is just a display of ignorance by it's creator nothing more

MorphingDragon
Jul 27, 2010, 07:20 PM
Clean skin is about 500 ohms. It's also a capacitive connection.

Okay... then my physics textbook lies! (Which it probably does... or I misread something)

cmaier
Jul 27, 2010, 09:02 PM
Okay... then my physics textbook lies! (Which it probably does... or I misread something)

Your book is right for sufficiently dirty skin

MorphingDragon
Jul 27, 2010, 09:13 PM
Your book is right for sufficiently dirty skin

The author tested his numbers on general labourers before writing his book. :rolleyes:

Do you feel it now?

ZAP!

amandapanda801
Jul 28, 2010, 02:28 AM
Wonder what the future of the iphone is now..Maybe they'll do like microsoft and develop a new one really quickly. My advice is not to buy the new one and stick to your old iphone.

ChazUK
Jul 28, 2010, 02:35 AM
Wonder what the future of the iphone is now..Maybe they'll do like microsoft and develop a new one really quickly. My advice is not to buy the new one and stick to your old iphone.

Why wait? The problem doesn't seem to manifest itself to a vast majority of users from what I've seen and if you were going to use a case for it then there is even less reason to worry.

The only people that possibly should skip the iP4 is those that insist on using it without a case who may hold it the "wrong" way.

muchadoaboutnot
Jul 28, 2010, 11:07 AM
I'm unimpressed by the way Jobs handled the press conference.

My guess? Apple is going to fix the issue via a non-conductive coating (if they haven't already, that's in the rumor mill) on newly produced phones. They don't want to acknowledge that there really is an issue though. That's why they're only doing the cases through September, it's because they WILL fix the issue but they won't fess up to it. I imagine this is to keep up the perception that the company doesn't make flawed devices and to avoid lawsuits.

Cases mitigate the problem, much like how many IE flaws can be mitigated by disabling JavaScript. However, it's not a true fix.

-hh
Jul 28, 2010, 12:50 PM
Again, antenna attenuation will not happen with a single touch of a fingertip. The issues you get when you hold a phone tightly with a relatively large mass of flesh and when you can cause signal loss because of the touch of a single finger are two very different things. No matter how many times you pretend they are the same you just embarrass yourself every single time.

and again, if you would take your own advice you wouldn't be posting at all.


Ahem.

FWIW, I don't think that there's any technical doubt regarding the question of a human interation potentially degrading (by whatever means) the performance of an antenna on a cellphone.

However, what all of that technical minutia comes down to is the macroscopic question of product system performance.

The simple bottom line is that if an external antenna design has more upside gain than downside losses, it is going to be the preferred design solution.


For example, consider two notional systems:

System "A" is nominally able to reliably receive a -120 dB signal strength, and whose design is vulnerable to a 20dB 'attenuation' loss. What this means is that its worst-case performance is that it will only be able to reliably receive a -120 - (-20) = -100 dB signal.

System "B" is nominally able to reliably receive a -100 dB signal strength, and its design is significantly less vulnerable to 'attenuation' losses: only -3 dB. Amongst other things, what this means is that its worst-case performance is that it will only be able to reliably receive a -100 - (-3) = -97 dB signal.


So which system design solution would you say is 'preferrable' (at least for these parameters)?

FWIW, please note that I am emphatically not claiming that these numbers are illustrative of anyone's actual real world product: I'm merely illustrating that the magnitude of an 'attenuation' loss isn't the only consideration present.

Simply put, the bottom line is the bottom line, and intermediate metrics are often useful, but they're still not the bottom line. Here, the bottom line is the overall system performance for actually connecting.


-hh


-hh

Max(IT)
Jul 28, 2010, 03:34 PM
Again, your confusion makes no sense. That one network signal can be so strong it gets 5 bars even without a functional antenna and another not is well known - that video is just a display of ignorance by it's creator nothing more

you didn't watch the video, right ?
Because if you did, you could have notice that the test started with 3 BARS, not 5.
So the signal strength in that video is NOT STRONG (we are speaking about the new 4.0.1 representation) AT ALL.
The ignorance is only on your part, because YOU ARE NOT BRIDGING ANYTHING.

And, again, try to "bridge" the antennas on the top spot, and show me your results .... if you own an iphone 4 ... :rolleyes:

Ahem.

FWIW, I don't think that there's any technical doubt regarding the question of a human interation potentially degrading (by whatever means) the performance of an antenna on a cellphone.

However, what all of that technical minutia comes down to is the macroscopic question of product system performance.

The simple bottom line is that if an external antenna design has more upside gain than downside losses, it is going to be the preferred design solution.


For example, consider two notional systems:

System "A" is nominally able to reliably receive a -120 dB signal strength, and whose design is vulnerable to a 20dB 'attenuation' loss. What this means is that its worst-case performance is that it will only be able to reliably receive a -120 - (-20) = -100 dB signal.

System "B" is nominally able to reliably receive a -100 dB signal strength, and its design is significantly less vulnerable to 'attenuation' losses: only -3 dB. Amongst other things, what this means is that its worst-case performance is that it will only be able to reliably receive a -100 - (-3) = -97 dB signal.


So which system design solution would you say is 'preferrable' (at least for these parameters)?

FWIW, please note that I am emphatically not claiming that these numbers are illustrative of anyone's actual real world product: I'm merely illustrating that the magnitude of an 'attenuation' loss isn't the only consideration present.

Simply put, the bottom line is the bottom line, and intermediate metrics are often useful, but they're still not the bottom line. Here, the bottom line is the overall system performance for actually connecting.


-hh


-hh

exactly that.
AN external antenna is clearly more subject to attenuation/detuning, but has a much better signal to noise ratio.
It is a trade off. Do we know if the pros could compensate for the cons ? No, we don't know, and surely the haters/bashers/whiners like him don't know either.
But what we do know is that iphone 4 could manage to keep connection/make calls at a very low level like -120 dB, where most of the other phones just show "no signal" ...

BobVB
Jul 30, 2010, 10:27 AM
The ignorance is only on your part, because YOU ARE NOT BRIDGING ANYTHING.
Ha! Then why do you not get the same massive drop in signal if the finger is touched just a millimeter lower, without bridging the gap? It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same falsehood, its still not true. This is not a mass attenuation issue, if it was Apple would be publishing videos showing single finger signal losses on other phones. Shoot they won't even do it on an 3GS.

And, again, try to "bridge" the antennas on the top spot, and show me your results .... if you own an iphone 4 ... :rolleyes:
We all ready know from the tear downs that that that strip of metal is grounded in the mid right so it only only the bottom part could even act as a UTMS antenna, we already know that the FCC wouldn't pass a phone that was using the top part of the band as UTMS antenna. Why would you even think that was important or relevant to the issue? Again, if it is mere mass attenuation why doesn't the problem manifest with a single finger just a millimeter below the gap, but does easily with the same finger that bridges the gap?

The question is do you really own an iPhone 4? I've had Apple products since my Apple ][, have 2 first-day-Macs in the shed, first day iPod, owned all models of iPhones - you are the one who comes off as just a 'I like to argue because I love the sound of my own voice' kind of guy. Why do you insist that this is mass attenuation of the antenna with every single bit of evidence shows that it is not?

firewood
Jul 30, 2010, 02:37 PM
The other single finger tip loss is if you try to take a photo with your finger over the camera lens. Another serious design flaw. Move your finger a few millimeters, and suddenly you can take photos again!

But no one does that. (Except me: I've got a photos to prove. But it's not enough to make me want to return my i4.). And no one makes phone calls that way either...

That's why no one will care about single finger tip shorting after this blogger PR stunt dies down. Just about whether you can make a call or not. And:
A: Some people won't be able to make call with a i4 that they could with their previous phone (say a 3GS).
B: Some people will be able to make calls with an i4 that they couldn't with some other phone (put me in this category).
The only thing that counts is the relative size of these two categories. If you're in category A, tough luck. Caveat Emptor. Buy another phone. If you're in category B, congratulations. You win.

cmaier
Jul 30, 2010, 02:43 PM
The other single finger tip loss is if you try to take a photo with your finger over the camera lens. Another serious design flaw. Move your finger a few millimeters, and suddenly you can take photos again!

But no one does that. (Except me: I've got a photos to prove. But it's not enough to make me want to return my i4.). And no one makes phone calls that way either...


Except steve jobs.

BobVB
Jul 30, 2010, 04:12 PM
The other single finger tip loss is if you try to take a photo with your finger over the camera lens. Another serious design flaw. Move your finger a few millimeters, and suddenly you can take photos again!
I think everyone agrees if they had put the lens where the gap is there would be similar complaints. I totally agree with your analogy.

The rest of your reply has nothing to do with the discussion.

Max(IT)
Jul 31, 2010, 03:14 PM
Ha! Then why do you not get the same massive drop in signal if the finger is touched just a millimeter lower, without bridging the gap? It doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same falsehood, its still not true. This is not a mass attenuation issue, if it was Apple would be publishing videos showing single finger signal losses on other phones. Shoot they won't even do it on an 3GS.

it doesn't matter how many times you repeat the same falsehood, it's still not true: you are not bridging anything.
It is attenuation and detuning due to the direct connection with the antenna, the same you see on almost every phone, at an higher magnitude because the antenna is external. The same external antenna, on the other way, allows for a better reception (-121 dB, a value you keep ignoring on purpose ....:rolleyes:).


We all ready know from the tear downs that that that strip of metal is grounded in the mid right so it only only the bottom part could even act as a UTMS antenna, we already know that the FCC wouldn't pass a phone that was using the top part of the band as UTMS antenna. Why would you even think that was important or relevant to the issue? Again, if it is mere mass attenuation why doesn't the problem manifest with a single finger just a millimeter below the gap, but does easily with the same finger that bridges the gap?
it is A SINGLE PIECE OF METAL, dude. If you ground it in the mid, you basically ground the whole antenna. The antenna is on the left side, from the top corner to the bottom, so it's perfectly ok for Fcc regulations.
You should have the capability to "bridge" it on the top gap, in the same way you pretend to "bridge" it on the lower gap. But it doesn't work that way.
Do you know why? BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT BRIDGING ANYTHING.


The question is do you really own an iPhone 4? I've had Apple products since my Apple ][, have 2 first-day-Macs in the shed, first day iPod, owned all models of iPhones - you are the one who comes off as just a 'I like to argue because I love the sound of my own voice' kind of guy. Why do you insist that this is mass attenuation of the antenna with every single bit of evidence shows that it is not?
I couldn't care less about what you have/had. Your "evidence" is flawed in its basis.
Attenuation and detuning is different from bridging two antennas with a finger.


The other single finger tip loss is if you try to take a photo with your finger over the camera lens. Another serious design flaw. Move your finger a few millimeters, and suddenly you can take photos again!

But no one does that. (Except me: I've got a photos to prove. But it's not enough to make me want to return my i4.). And no one makes phone calls that way either...

That's why no one will care about single finger tip shorting after this blogger PR stunt dies down. Just about whether you can make a call or not. And:
A: Some people won't be able to make call with a i4 that they could with their previous phone (say a 3GS).
B: Some people will be able to make calls with an i4 that they couldn't with some other phone (put me in this category).
The only thing that counts is the relative size of these two categories. If you're in category A, tough luck. Caveat Emptor. Buy another phone. If you're in category B, congratulations. You win.

Exactly.

Worf
Jul 31, 2010, 03:17 PM
omg iPhone 4 is the most amazing thing ever how could anyone say anything bad about it especially after Steve Jobs himself held a press conference today to even give out free bumpers for every1 :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::apple:

<3:apple:


Who can argue with this logic? Who I tell you:confused:!:confused:!:confused:!:eek:

mrochester
Jul 31, 2010, 03:33 PM
it is A SINGLE PIECE OF METAL, dude. If you ground it in the mid, you basically ground the whole antenna. The antenna is on the left side, from the top corner to the bottom, so it's perfectly ok for Fcc regulations.
You should have the capability to "bridge" it on the top gap, in the same way you pretend to "bridge" it on the lower gap. But it doesn't work that way.
Do you know why? BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT BRIDGING ANYTHING.

The UMTS antenna is on the right hand side of the phone. It runs from the top, all the way down the right hand side, along the bottom, and a short way up the left hand side.

BobVB
Jul 31, 2010, 04:18 PM
The UMTS antenna is on the right hand side of the phone. It runs from the top, all the way down the right hand side, along the bottom, and a short way up the left hand side.

Tear downs show it is ground out about 1/3 the way up from the right side only the bottom part is acting as the UMTS antenna.

Again he can't explain why only touching the gap causes the massive single drop on a fingertip touch yet doing the same where it does just a millimeter lower does not.

He's just trolling - I've never understood what they get out of it - guess it's just an Internet form of vandalism.

mrochester
Jul 31, 2010, 04:57 PM
Tear downs show it is ground out about 1/3 the way up from the right side only the bottom part is acting as the UMTS antenna.

Again he can't explain why only touching the gap causes the massive single drop on a fingertip touch yet doing the same where it does just a millimeter lower does not.

He's just trolling - I've never understood what they get out of it - guess it's just an Internet form of vandalism.

If that's the case, it means the bottom left gap is the only point on the device where the UMTS antenna meets the wifi/bluetooth antenna. It seems way too much of a coincidence that that happens to be the same point that causes a problem!

Max(IT)
Aug 1, 2010, 03:47 PM
The UMTS antenna is on the right hand side of the phone. It runs from the top, all the way down the right hand side, along the bottom, and a short way up the left hand side.
You are right, my mistake.
BTW it doesn't change anything. It is a single piece of metal. If you can "bridge" it on the lower left gap, you should do the same on the upper left gap. And that doesn't happen.

Tear downs show it is ground out about 1/3 the way up from the right side only the bottom part is acting as the UMTS antenna.

Again he can't explain why only touching the gap causes the massive single drop on a fingertip touch yet doing the same where it does just a millimeter lower does not.

He's just trolling - I've never understood what they get out of it - guess it's just an Internet form of vandalism.

And , again, you can't ground "one side" of a single piece of metal. If you ground it at 1/3 of its length, you basically grounds the whole antenna.
So your explanation is useless, and YOU are the one trolling here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EfawQj-Rto&feature=youtube_gdata

This is what you call "massive drop", when using a network that isn't the ****** AT&T ...

Vulpinemac
Aug 8, 2010, 04:00 PM
Tear downs show it is ground out about 1/3 the way up from the right side only the bottom part is acting as the UMTS antenna.

Again he can't explain why only touching the gap causes the massive single drop on a fingertip touch yet doing the same where it does just a millimeter lower does not.

He's just trolling - I've never understood what they get out of it - guess it's just an Internet form of vandalism.

At least I could explain it, if I chose; I used to teach about RF signal propagation and reception.

And , again, you can't ground "one side" of a single piece of metal. If you ground it at 1/3 of its length, you basically grounds the whole antenna.

And yes you can, since you're not doing an 'Earth' ground. RF propagation works a little differently from DC circuit flow. Actually, a lot differently.

I suggest you two look up the science behind Dipole Antenna and RF Propagation. Maybe then you would both better understand what's happening.