Drives in optical bay questions [Archive]

nanofrog

Jul 19, 2010, 05:40 PM

So I was looking into a way to getting an SSD and a 3.5" in the empty optical bay of a 2009 MP. I found this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MM35A52CMB/) which looked like it might work and also this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MM52T35/) with an ICY dock. However, the 2009 MP only has one other SATA port, where the other optical drive would be. What cables and or PCI controllers would I need in order to get this to work without any problems?
The first link appears to handle bay mounting for you, and it's not bad in price.

But as per hooking it all up, what exactly are you planning on doing?
Are there multiple OS's involved?
RAID?

The details will matter, as you need at least one other port, which would have to be provided via a PCIe card (assuming the optical drive is left internally).

WardC

Jul 19, 2010, 05:50 PM

For the ODD (optical drive bay) upgrade using SSDs on the 2009 Mac Pro, follow the above poster's advice and use the OWC 2.5" to 5.25" converter. It will allow for two 2.5" drives to be installed in the optical drive port of the Mac Pro. You can find the link to the above mentioned part you need right here:

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MM352A52ST/

For their complete list of multi-mount options, go here:

http://eshop.macsales.com/owcpages/multimount/multimount.html

Hope this helps!

strausd

Jul 20, 2010, 12:41 AM

The first link appears to handle bay mounting for you, and it's not bad in price.

But as per hooking it all up, what exactly are you planning on doing?
Are there multiple OS's involved?
RAID?

The details will matter, as you need at least one other port, which would have to be provided via a PCIe card (assuming the optical drive is left internally).

Maybe Multiple OS's, if possible. I would want the SSD to run OS X for sure. I will be doing bootcamp, and would like to use the 3.5" drive for bootcamp if possible. If doing that would make it cost more, then it's no big deal, still got 4 other bays. And if I can't boot off that, then I could just get the second thing I linked to in order to have more storage and put the SSD and an ICY dock in bay 1. As for RAID, I'm not entirely sure, considering one would be an SSD and the other a mechanical 3.5" drive. If I put something on RAID, it would most likely be 2 of the internals on RAID 0 for fast storage. But if the SSD in the optical bay wouldn't be bootable, then I may want to consider a RAID 0 of two 1TBs in the optical bay. Hope that was clear enough haha.

And thanks for the links WardC! The second one seems to explain things fairly well.

Flash SWT

Jul 20, 2010, 12:52 AM

strausd

Jul 20, 2010, 12:56 AM

I think most of y'all are missing the question. The original poster wants to install BOTH an SSD and a regular 3.5 inch hard drive into the optical bay.

His question is, what does he need to plug BOTH drives into the single available SATA port available.

.

Or if I would get better speed with using a SATA controller in a PCI slot or something like that...

Wondering which would be best, if controller then which controller, and what cables for power/data.

strausd

Jul 20, 2010, 01:44 AM

I just found this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Highpoint%20Technologies/RR1742/) and this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Firmtek/FTST1S2/). The first one seems like it would do whatever I wanted it to do, RAID 0 or just SATA II transfer speeds for two internal drives. However, if I didn't want RAID, then I would be paying extra for something I don't really need. Now, the second one I wouldn't be paying for RAID, since it's not supported. However, its only SATA I and not SATA II.

I don't mind the price being around $130, but if I could get it closer to $100 that'd be nice. I am wondering if there is any happy medium between these two? One that only has 2 internal ports with SATA II and no RAID that would work well.

Also, I am still clueless as to what cables I would need for power and data.

nanofrog

Jul 20, 2010, 12:26 PM

Maybe Multiple OS's, if possible. I would want the SSD to run OS X for sure. I will be doing bootcamp, and would like to use the 3.5" drive for bootcamp if possible. If doing that would make it cost more, then it's no big deal, still got 4 other bays. And if I can't boot off that, then I could just get the second thing I linked to in order to have more storage and put the SSD and an ICY dock in bay 1. As for RAID, I'm not entirely sure, considering one would be an SSD and the other a mechanical 3.5" drive. If I put something on RAID, it would most likely be 2 of the internals on RAID 0 for fast storage. But if the SSD in the optical bay wouldn't be bootable, then I may want to consider a RAID 0 of two 1TBs in the optical bay. Hope that was clear enough haha.

And thanks for the links WardC! The second one seems to explain things fairly well.
If you want multiple OS's, you won't be able to do this via the ICH (SATA controller on the logic board) if you also create a RAID. Something you should be aware of. It can be gotten around however via separate controllers (i.e. BIOS based card with internal ports can be used to boot a Windows and/or Linux installation).

If you use separate drives for OS's, you don't even need to run Boot Camp (it's just a partition tool).

I'd go ahead and stick the SSD in the empty optical bay, and use the available cable for that. You can use the following to get power to a 3.5" disk in the same bay (using the mounting kit from OWC).

Backplane Extension Cable (http://www.cooldrives.com/sainexca22ex.html)
Standard SATA power cable (http://cgi.ebay.com/IDE-SATA-Serial-ATA-Splitter-Power-Cable-Connector-/350327854576?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51912ad5f0) (just cut one of the SATA ends off, and keep the other for future use if you want, and it will still work as a Molex to SATA adapter if you need, just make sure the cut ends don't short out on anything if you use it this way)

Just tie the power cable to the power wires of the Backplane extension cable (solder + heatshrink tubing, crimp connectors, or wire nuts will work - rather easy to do, as you just match up the wire colors & locations, namely for the corresponding ground, as both are black), and you get power to the 3.5" drive (data from the system's cable passes through, and attaches to the SSD). It's also cheap, and won't void your warranty, as there's no modification to any of the system's components.

As per data, you'd need a PCIe SATA card with an internal port, such as one based on the SIL3132 chip (example (http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Port-ESATA-SATA-II-PCI-E-PCI-Express-Card-SIL3132-/190391554821?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c54389305) - 3.0Gb/s <~270MB/s real world throughput; just as it is on the ICH in the chipset = system's SATA ports>, boots BIOS, and has drivers for OS X, and it's really cheap as well). If you want to run it under OS X, drivers can be found here (http://www.siliconimage.com/support/searchresults.aspx?pid=32&cat=3&os=3). You can still use this in a RAID if you wish, via Disk Utility (it just wouldn't boot using any disk attached to this card). Any of the other ports however, will boot OS X.

Read carefully, but this may help you understand what's possible (and why). I couldn't go into a specific setup, as there's too little information yet (you seem a bit undecided ATM, which is fine).

Hope all of this helps. :)

strausd

Jul 20, 2010, 04:38 PM

If you want multiple OS's, you won't be able to do this via the ICH (SATA controller on the logic board) if you also create a RAID. Something you should be aware of. It can be gotten around however via separate controllers (i.e. BIOS based card with internal ports can be used to boot a Windows and/or Linux installation).

If you use separate drives for OS's, you don't even need to run Boot Camp (it's just a partition tool).

I'd go ahead and stick the SSD in the empty optical bay, and use the available cable for that. You can use the following to get power to a 3.5" disk in the same bay (using the mounting kit from OWC).

Backplane Extension Cable (http://www.cooldrives.com/sainexca22ex.html)
Standard SATA power cable (http://cgi.ebay.com/IDE-SATA-Serial-ATA-Splitter-Power-Cable-Connector-/350327854576?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51912ad5f0) (just cut one of the SATA ends off, and keep the other for future use if you want, and it will still work as a Molex to SATA adapter if you need, just make sure the cut ends don't short out on anything if you use it this way)

Just tie the power cable to the power wires of the Backplane extension cable (solder + heatshrink tubing, crimp connectors, or wire nuts will work - rather easy to do, as you just match up the wire colors & locations, namely for the corresponding ground, as both are black), and you get power to the 3.5" drive (data from the system's cable passes through, and attaches to the SSD). It's also cheap, and won't void your warranty, as there's no modification to any of the system's components.

As per data, you'd need a PCIe SATA card with an internal port, such as one based on the SIL3132 chip (example (http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Port-ESATA-SATA-II-PCI-E-PCI-Express-Card-SIL3132-/190391554821?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c54389305) - 3.0Gb/s <~270MB/s real world throughput; just as it is on the ICH in the chipset = system's SATA ports>, boots BIOS, and has drivers for OS X, and it's really cheap as well). If you want to run it under OS X, drivers can be found here (http://www.siliconimage.com/support/searchresults.aspx?pid=32&cat=3&os=3). You can still use this in a RAID if you wish, via Disk Utility (it just wouldn't boot using any disk attached to this card). Any of the other ports however, will boot OS X.

Read carefully, but this may help you understand what's possible (and why). I couldn't go into a specific setup, as there's too little information yet (you seem a bit undecided ATM, which is fine).

Hope all of this helps. :)

Awesome!

Now if I wanted to put two 3.5" drives in the optical bay using this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MM52T35/), would I be able to get that to work with two SATA cables, this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200161&cm_re=y_splitter-_-12-200-161-_-Product) splitter, and this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Highpoint%20Technologies/RR1742/) controller?

strausd

Jul 20, 2010, 06:54 PM

Or would it be this splitter (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Micro%20Accessories/SATAPAY/) instead of the other one?

nanofrog

Jul 20, 2010, 09:30 PM

Now if I wanted to put two 3.5" drives in the optical bay using this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MM52T35/), would I be able to get that to work with two SATA cables, this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200161&cm_re=y_splitter-_-12-200-161-_-Product) splitter, and this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Highpoint%20Technologies/RR1742/) controller?
Mounting solution: TransIntl Pro Caddy (http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?category=2791) (1x optical drive in top, 2x 3.5" HDD's in the lower section). Get the barebones kit for $90. Not exactly cheap, but it will do the job.

Why do you want to use the card linked?
It's still a BIOS based card (boots Windows or Linux, not OS X), but has drivers for OS X. But yes, it will function in the system. Personally, I'd stick with the other card linked previously, as it's much cheaper.

Cabling would be the same as well (as far as what you'd need to buy), except you may want to attach both SATA power ends to the Backplane Extension Cable, and use 2x SATA data cables to the SATA card (assuming you won't be using the ICH port used by the original cable in the empty optical bay for either disk).

WardC

Jul 20, 2010, 10:00 PM

strausd

Jul 20, 2010, 10:43 PM

I think something like this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MM352A52ST/) would give the solution he is looking for:

OWC Multimount Bracket: 2.5" to 5.25" AND 3.5" to 5.25"

http://eshop.macsales.com/images/Items/OWCMULTIMOUNT/bracket1.jpg

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MM352A52ST/

Ya I would like to use something like that cause it would be cheaper than transintl.

Mounting solution: TransIntl Pro Caddy (http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?category=2791) (1x optical drive in top, 2x 3.5" HDD's in the lower section). Get the barebones kit for $90. Not exactly cheap, but it will do the job.

Why do you want to use the card linked?
It's still a BIOS based card (boots Windows or Linux, not OS X), but has drivers for OS X. But yes, it will function in the system. Personally, I'd stick with the other card linked previously, as it's much cheaper.

Cabling would be the same as well (as far as what you'd need to buy), except you may want to attach both SATA power ends to the Backplane Extension Cable, and use 2x SATA data cables to the SATA card (assuming you won't be using the ICH port used by the original cable in the empty optical bay for either disk).

I would prefer to use the OWC multimount because of price. As for the controller, the one I linked to would be nice because it supports RAID. Now what will happen when a new version of OS X comes out? Will it mean that the drives in the optical bay connected to the controller will no longer be discoverable? Is this true for both the controller you linked to and the RAID one I linked to?

If I got the pro caddy 2 with nobootable PCI card, would I need to buy anything else besides the drive themselves? And if I got it with no PCI card, could I use the RAID one I talked about earlier?

Also, which of those 2 y splitters that I posted would work? I'm still unsure about that.

Loa

Jul 21, 2010, 10:11 AM

I think something like this (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MM352A52ST/) would give the solution he is looking for

Don't buy this!!! It's OWC's copy of a great product (that they still sell) for 12$ more!!! Get this instead:

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Noiseblocker/HDC65/

It serves the same purpose, it's cheaper and it's been working flawlessly for me since I bought it.

Loa

nanofrog

Jul 21, 2010, 12:11 PM

I would prefer to use the OWC multimount because of price.
The change from 1x 2.5" + 1x 3.5" to 2x 3.5" drives is what changed things, as 2x 3.5" disks won't fit a standard 5.25" bay height stacked (haven't tried this in a MP optical bay). They need to be set one front and back. The Pro Caddy fits this particular configuration.

But you can DIY a solution as well. For example, find an old optical drive, and dissassemble it for the metal plates. Take one and figure out where to mount them, then drill the necessary holes. It's really that simple. And there's others you could figure out as well, using either items on hand, or inexpensive materials (way less than the cost of the Pro Caddy).

As for the controller, the one I linked to would be nice because it supports RAID. Now what will happen when a new version of OS X comes out? Will it mean that the drives in the optical bay connected to the controller will no longer be discoverable? Is this true for both the controller you linked to and the RAID one I linked to?
I took a closer look at that card again, and it WILL NOT WORK in a 2009 MP, as the card is PCI, and the system is PCIe (different slot).

Even if it did, it's just a SATA controller chip and ROM. RAID is done via software, just as Disk Utility does.

The card I linked (PCIe interface) and drives will remain reconized and usable, unless the OS X Update is rather messed up (it can and does happen). The RAID is better setup via Disk Utility BTW, especially if it's combined with other disks on the ICH.

Also, which of those 2 y splitters that I posted would work? I'm still unsure about that.
The splitter doesn't really matter so long as you have 2x SATA female ends, as you're cutting the wiring up and making your own harness out of the linked cables (get tied to the power wiring on the Backplane Extension Cable).

strausd

Jul 21, 2010, 03:35 PM

If I were to get the pro caddy 2 and that cheap controller on ebay, I wouldn't need to buy any cables, correct? And what are the chances that a software update would render the drives in the pro caddy 2 useless because of the PCIe controller?

Now, if I used one of OWCs mounts for just putting a single SSD in the empty optical bay (or a 3.5" drive), would I need any cables at all? Or would the cables that would originally plug into the second optical drive provide power and data for the SSD? And yes, I am aware that I wouldn't need the mount at all, I could just let the SSD sit there.

As for the splitter, is there any in which I wouldn't have to cut the cables? One that would plug into the cable for the second optical bay fine and provide power to 2 drives?

nanofrog

Jul 21, 2010, 09:37 PM

If I were to get the pro caddy 2 and that cheap controller on ebay, I wouldn't need to buy any cables, correct? And what are the chances that a software update would render the drives in the pro caddy 2 useless because of the PCIe controller?
You'd still need cables for both data and power.

As per OS Updates, it happens, even with the ICH (10.6.3 IIRC caused instability in RAID's, both software and hardware implementations). All you can do in such cases, is roll the system back to the previous state, and wait for another update.

Now, if I used one of OWCs mounts for just putting a single SSD in the empty optical bay (or a 3.5" drive), would I need any cables at all?
If you attach a single disk to the cable meant for the empty optical bay, No (contains power and data, which is sent to the system's ICH).

As for the splitter, is there any in which I wouldn't have to cut the cables? One that would plug into the cable for the second optical bay fine and provide power to 2 drives?
If you don't ever mean to connect the Backplane cable that's meant for the empty optical drive, you can use this one to pull power (your link (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200161&cm_re=y_splitter-_-12-200-161-_-Product&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-RSSDailyDeals-_-na-_-na&AID=10521304&PID=3160356&SID=)). You'd loose the ability to just plug it into a drive though (power and data won't mate to the connector properly).

The cables I linked will allow you to do that once they've been modded together, and it won't void your warranty. There's no modifications to the original system at all, not even cables. You're making a custom cable out of readily available 3rd party gear for your needs, is rather inexpensive, and really easy to do. No need to panic over it.

strausd

Jul 21, 2010, 11:45 PM

I was just looking over the pro caddy 2 and saw this:

"Ships with custom designed Power Cable, Second Generation Halogen Free Signal cables."

So with that, would I need cables for power and/or data?

The main options I am going through right now are the pro caddy 2 and a cheap PCIe controller, probably no RAID, considering a cheap one would probably still use some CPU power. The other option is just a single SSD in the optical bay, since it would be bootable, no need for buying anything else, and the other 4 bays should suffice, but having the ability for more drives is always nice :)

nanofrog

Jul 22, 2010, 02:06 AM

I was just looking over the pro caddy 2 and saw this:

"Ships with custom designed Power Cable, Second Generation Halogen Free Signal cables."
That would make things easy. But I'd recommend calling to get the particulars to be on the safe side.

...considering a cheap one would probably still use some CPU power.
A couple of % of a single core for a stripe set (software implementation). Not much at all.

strausd

Jul 22, 2010, 02:14 AM

That would make things easy. But I'd recommend calling to get the particulars to be on the safe side.

A couple of % of a single core for a stripe set (software implementation). Not much at all.

Alright, I will contact them to make sure. Also to see if they include SATA cables. I also noticed that for only $10 more, they will include a PCIe controller. They have a bootable one available too but that brings the price up a bit.

So a software RAID wouldn't make a big difference in performance at all? I am an Arts and Technology major and will be doing a lot of 3D rendering and don't want a software RAID to slow things down, especially when there is a deadline for a project.

So just to make sure, if I were to just put the SSD in the optical bay, no other drives, I wouldn't need any other cables or anything, and it would be bootable? If so, would booting from the optical bay reduce speeds at all when compared to if it were in bay 1?

nanofrog

Jul 22, 2010, 01:02 PM

Alright, I will contact them to make sure. Also to see if they include SATA cables. I also noticed that for only $10 more, they will include a PCIe controller. They have a bootable one available too but that brings the price up a bit.
The card is up to you, as I'm not sure you're settled on the configuration yet, which can include the OS the attached disks will be running, and if it needs to be booted.

So a software RAID wouldn't make a big difference in performance at all? I am an Arts and Technology major and will be doing a lot of 3D rendering and don't want a software RAID to slow things down, especially when there is a deadline for a project.
No, the software implementation would be fine, as you won't even notice a percent or two on a single core.

So just to make sure, if I were to just put the SSD in the optical bay, no other drives, I wouldn't need any other cables or anything, and it would be bootable?
No cables needed, it will boot, and there's no slow down compared to any of the HDD bays (it's all the same controller).

strausd

Jul 22, 2010, 02:58 PM

Alright I think I have decided that I will do a software RAID since it only uses one core when there are up to 16 threads in the MP. And I contacted TransIntl yesterday and they said that the Pro Caddy 2 comes with all power and data cables needed for two drives.

I am also curious as to whether or not a software RAID is bootable with OS X on its. Also, would it be bootable if it was used for bootcamp running windows 7?

nanofrog

Jul 22, 2010, 04:35 PM

I am also curious as to whether or not a software RAID is bootable with OS X on its.
Yes, a software RAID on the logic board's SATA controller is bootable. If it's on another controller (PCIe card), that will depend on the firmware (BIOS will boot Windows or Linux, EFI will boot OS X).

Also, would it be bootable if it was used for bootcamp running windows 7?
No. Boot Camp won't work on a RAID drive, nor on a separate disk, unless it's attached to a separate controller (Disk Utility changes the firmware settings, and Windows will no longer boot off of the ICH).

strausd

Jul 23, 2010, 02:24 AM

nanofrog

Jul 23, 2010, 03:45 AM

Well I think I am definitely leaning towards a software RAID with a single SSD in the optical bay. I noticed on another thread that you said it is a good idea to check the drive before putting it on RAID. How would I go about checking a drive for bad sectors and things like that?
I use the drive utility provided by the drive maker (usually under Windows). There are other tools, but you'd have to pay for a license (the downloads off of the drive maker's site are free).

Please note the low level formats use by drive makers are proprietary (i.e. Seagate's tools shouldn't be used on anything but Seagate, and so on).

strausd

Jul 23, 2010, 04:14 AM

I use the drive utility provided by the drive maker (usually under Windows). There are other tools, but you'd have to pay for a license (the downloads off of the drive maker's site are free).

Please note the low level formats use by drive makers are proprietary (i.e. Seagate's tools shouldn't be used on anything but Seagate, and so on).

What is a good standard one that will work with all drives under OS X?

nanofrog

Jul 23, 2010, 12:46 PM

What is a good standard one that will work with all drives under OS X?
I'm not aware of a single package that can work with any drive make.

You could take a look at:
Disk Tools Pro (http://www.macwareinc.com/products/DiskToolsPro/overview.html)
Disk Doctors (http://www.diskdoctors.net/mac-data-recovery/software.html)

But I don't think they cover all brands (Disk Doctor's indicates LaCie, iOmega, Seagate, Maxtor and G-drive for example). You'd need to dig into this further, to see if it's suitable with your drives.

Spacedust

Jul 23, 2010, 01:08 PM

Is there any possibility to put 4 SSD's in a second optical bay in Mac Pro ?

nanofrog

Jul 23, 2010, 01:20 PM

Is there any possibility to put 4 SSD's in a second optical bay in Mac Pro ?
Yes. :)

4x 2.5" backplane (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817993017) (cheapest I've seen it) or a DIY solution.

Depending on what you're doing with the 2008 system, it can be easier (i.e. using a fanout cable from the logic board to the backplane), but I presume those ports are occupied. So you'd need a 4 port controller of some sort (a fast hardware RAID card if you're planning on 4x SSD's to be run simultaneously), and power cables (also easier in the '08 model vs. '09).

Spacedust

Jul 23, 2010, 04:18 PM

Yes. :)

4x 2.5" backplane (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817993017) (cheapest I've seen it) or a DIY solution.

Depending on what you're doing with the 2008 system, it can be easier (i.e. using a fanout cable from the logic board to the backplane), but I presume those ports are occupied. So you'd need a 4 port controller of some sort (a fast hardware RAID card if you're planning on 4x SSD's to be run simultaneously), and power cables (also easier in the '08 model vs. '09).

WOW ! That's the thing I was looking for. Now I can remove my second Superdrive and put 4xSSD's for BootCamp RAID + some sort of Hardware RAID card and 4xSSD's in Mac Pro bays for Mac OS X software or hardware RAID :)

Is there any possibility to put 2 drive's (2,5" SSD's) in one Mac Pro bay ?). This would allow me to put 8 SSD's in Mac Pro bays. I would like to put SATA cables manually.

strausd

Jul 23, 2010, 04:21 PM

WOW ! That's the thing I was looking for. Now I can remove my second Superdrive and put 4xSSD's for BootCamp RAID + some sort of Hardware RAID card and 4xSSD's in Mac Pro bays for Mac OS X software or hardware RAID :)

Is there any possibility to put 2 drive's (2,5" SSD's) in one Mac Pro bay ?). This would allow me to put 8 SSD's in Mac Pro bays. I would like to put SATA cables manually.

http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2746&RequestTimeOut=500

Spacedust

Jul 23, 2010, 04:38 PM

http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2746&RequestTimeOut=500

It has integrated RAID ? What if I have 4 of these ? :)

strausd

Jul 23, 2010, 04:41 PM

It has integrated RAID ? What if I have 4 of these ? :)

Uhm I'm not entirely sure, I don't know too much about this. But FYI, it won't work in a 2009 MP.

nanofrog

Jul 23, 2010, 06:28 PM

WOW ! That's the thing I was looking for. Now I can remove my second Superdrive and put 4xSSD's for BootCamp RAID + some sort of Hardware RAID card and 4xSSD's in Mac Pro bays for Mac OS X software or hardware RAID :)
You won't be able to run both an OS X and Windows array on the logic board's SATA controller. You'd need one of them on a separate controller, as Disk Utility modifies the firmware settings, so Windows or Linux will no longer boot from the ICH.

Also, if you wish to have 2x independent SSD arrays of 4x disks each, you'd want a separate controller for each. The slot configuration could pose a problem here (see below), as you must have a separate RAID card to boot OS X and BIOS (one card CANNOT boot in both EFI and BIOS environments, as the ROM can only store one or the other).

Is there any possibility to put 2 drive's (2,5" SSD's) in one Mac Pro bay ?). This would allow me to put 8 SSD's in Mac Pro bays. I would like to put SATA cables manually.
As mentioned, the Pro Drive won't work with the 2009 systems, but that's not an issue for you. However, you'll suffer performance issues.
The logic board's SATA controller (ICH in the chipset), is only good for ~660MB/s. As SSD's are available that can push the limit of 3.0Gb/s SATA ports, you can't install but 3x before you're going to be throttled (set runs slower than is technically possible).

A separate PCIe card is the only solution to that, and may have limits as well (depending on the number of drives used, their actual throughputs, the card model, and the slot used = specifics of the setup). Remember, Slots 1 and 2 are 16x lane Gen 2.0 (500MB/s per lane), and Slots 3 and 4 are 4x electrical Gen 1.0 (250MB/s per lane).

http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2746&RequestTimeOut=500
Those devices use Port Multiplier chips, and are capable of either RAID 0 or 1. That means you're switching the port between the disks, and the overhead involved slows down the throughput to less than the port is capable of on a single disk. ~200MB/s under a stripe configuration per unit (sold by others as well).

But Spacedust's system is a 2008, so they would be able to be used from a technical standpoint (fits the trays properly = ports will connect to the cable end back in the bay, which is attached via 2 metal tabs that hang down).

strausd

Jul 24, 2010, 01:00 AM

Would it be a bad idea to have my home directory on a 2TB software RAID 0? Just curious because I would be accessing it a lot and would want to still have fast read and writes.

nanofrog

Jul 24, 2010, 04:01 AM

Would it be a bad idea to have my home directory on a 2TB software RAID 0? Just curious because I would be accessing it a lot and would want to still have fast read and writes.
Wouldn't be a problem, so long as you've a back system in place.

Spacedust

Jul 24, 2010, 09:09 AM

You won't be able to run both an OS X and Windows array on the logic board's SATA controller. You'd need one of them on a separate controller, as Disk Utility modifies the firmware settings, so Windows or Linux will no longer boot from the ICH.

Also, if you wish to have 2x independent SSD arrays of 4x disks each, you'd want a separate controller for each. The slot configuration could pose a problem here (see below), as you must have a separate RAID card to boot OS X and BIOS (one card CANNOT boot in both EFI and BIOS environments, as the ROM can only store one or the other).

As mentioned, the Pro Drive won't work with the 2009 systems, but that's not an issue for you. However, you'll suffer performance issues.
The logic board's SATA controller (ICH in the chipset), is only good for ~660MB/s. As SSD's are available that can push the limit of 3.0Gb/s SATA ports, you can't install but 3x before you're going to be throttled (set runs slower than is technically possible).

A separate PCIe card is the only solution to that, and may have limits as well (depending on the number of drives used, their actual throughputs, the card model, and the slot used = specifics of the setup). Remember, Slots 1 and 2 are 16x lane Gen 2.0 (500MB/s per lane), and Slots 3 and 4 are 4x electrical Gen 1.0 (250MB/s per lane).

Those devices use Port Multiplier chips, and are capable of either RAID 0 or 1. That means you're switching the port between the disks, and the overhead involved slows down the throughput to less than the port is capable of on a single disk. ~200MB/s under a stripe configuration per unit (sold by others as well).

But Spacedust's system is a 2008, so they would be able to be used from a technical standpoint (fits the trays properly = ports will connect to the cable end back in the bay, which is attached via 2 metal tabs that hang down).

That's for reply nanofrog.

Some 3,5" to 2,5" backplates have to seperate SATA connectors: http://www.ocmodshop.com/ocmodshop.aspx?a=1762&p=4558, but 4 drives is enough for me.

I think the best setup is:

4xSSD RAID 0 in second optical bay + RAID controller in Slot 3 for Windows 7 connected via 4xSATA cables or 1xSAS to 4xSATA cable

4xSSD RAID 0 in Mac Pro bays + some sort of 3,5 to 2,5" converter (I use Kingston) + RAID controller in Slot 2 for Mac OS X + SAS extension cable or SAS to 4xSATA cable

Take a look a this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96dWOEa4Djs - this guy took 24 SSD's and connected them:

10 drives to Areca controller
8 drives to Adapter controller
6 drives to integrated RAID controller

Preety nice setup ;)

nanofrog

Jul 24, 2010, 01:22 PM

Some 3,5" to 2,5" backplates have to separate SATA connectors: http://www.ocmodshop.com/ocmodshop.aspx?a=1762&p=4558, but 4 drives is enough for me.
The unit I linked is common, and sold under multiple brands (iSTAR is one of them). So I presume you'd be able to find it closer to home (newegg only ships to the US and Canada).

The port configuration on that unit is preferable to Backplane connectors IMO, in terms of configuration. Just use the Molex connector at the optical bay for power, and a fan-out cable to get data to the card. Cable's cheaper too (backplane fanouts are also harder to deal with, as you've 4x power connectors to feed).

At any rate, there is a solution to either port type.

4xSSD RAID 0 in second optical bay + RAID controller in Slot 3 for Windows 7 connected via 4xSATA cables or 1xSAS to 4xSATA cable
This will work. Just keep in mind, that given Slot 3 is 4x lane Gen 1.0, so you could throttle on faster SSD's (those capable of pushing more than 250MB/s each for sustained transfers).

4xSSD RAID 0 in Mac Pro bays + some sort of 3,5 to 2,5" converter (I use Kingston) + RAID controller in Slot 2 for Mac OS X + SAS extension cable or SAS to 4xSATA cable[/QUOTE]
No throttling here, as Slot 2 is 16x lanes, and Gen 2.0. A sufficient RAID card is 8x lanes and a fast processor (800MHz SAS Intel IOP would certainly suffice). But SATA models using say 333MHz, wouldn't (suitable for 2, maybe 3x disks, but not 4).

BTW, all 24 of those SSD's were initially attached to the Areca 1680ix-24, not multiple controllers. :eek: I'd like to see what happens with the newer firmware on that card (only have the 1680ix-12 on hand, as well as a 1231ML). :D

deconstruct60

Jul 24, 2010, 02:20 PM

So you'd need a 4 port controller of some sort (a fast hardware RAID card if you're planning on 4x SSD's to be run simultaneously), and power cables (also easier in the '08 model vs. '09).

Where is the power going to come to run a bridge , fan, and 4 SSD drives? From the power link meant for running a single optical drive. Or moving power across thermal zones inside the Mac Pro ?

Blowing hot air directly at the power supply isn't usually a good idea from a long term perspective.

nanofrog

Jul 24, 2010, 08:19 PM

Where is the power going to come to run a bridge , fan, and 4 SSD drives? From the power link meant for running a single optical drive. Or moving power across thermal zones inside the Mac Pro ?

Blowing hot air directly at the power supply isn't usually a good idea from a long term perspective.
Power source = Molex connector available for each optical disk (empty in this case).

SSD's don't pull the power that mechanical drives do, thus don't result in the heat output either. There shouldn't be any significant heat blown across the PSU at all (if any).

BTW, the unit I linked is "dumb" (traces from drive connectors on the backplane in the unit to SATA/SAS ports on the back). As simple as it gets. ;)

Spacedust

Jul 25, 2010, 09:17 AM

This will work. Just keep in mind, that given Slot 3 is 4x lane Gen 1.0, so you could throttle on faster SSD's (those capable of pushing more than 250MB/s each for sustained transfers).

I think it's not a problem, because 250 MB/s is for PCI-EX 1.1 1x - most SSD's is below this.

Most controllers are PCI-EX 4x oraz 8x which means 1000 MB/s or 2000 MB/s while working on PCI-EX 1.1 and 2000 MB/s or 4000 MB/s while working on 8x.

I want to use some cheap 32 GB with decent speeds like A-Data AS592S-32GM-C (read/write - 230/150 MB/s).

My current Kingston 40 GB is too slow, I had to manually enable TRIM, flashing the drive with Intel firmware. Read speed is 170 MB/s (unstable), write speed only 40 MB/s :/

nanofrog

Jul 25, 2010, 10:55 AM

I think it's not a problem, because 250 MB/s is for PCI-EX 1.1 1x - most SSD's is below this.

Most controllers are PCI-EX 4x oraz 8x which means 1000 MB/s or 2000 MB/s while working on PCI-EX 1.1 and 2000 MB/s or 4000 MB/s while working on 8x.

I want to use some cheap 32 GB with decent speeds like A-Data AS592S-32GM-C (read/write - 230/150 MB/s).

My current Kingston 40 GB is too slow, I had to manually enable TRIM, flashing the drive with Intel firmware. Read speed is 170 MB/s (unstable), write speed only 40 MB/s :/
I just wanted you to be aware that it could happen, depending on the drives. It will also become more apparent when you're ready to swap drives again IMO, as 6.0Gb/s models will be more common (single disks exceeding 270MB/s).

There are 6.0Gb/s RAID cards avialable now (ATTO is the only vendor with such cards ATM). Given the limitations of Slot 3 and 4, just stick with a 3.0Gb/s compliant card, as there's more choices (i.e. cheaper alternatives).

You could use say one of the Highpoint RR43xx models for the Windows set, and either an ATTO (3.0Gb/s or 6.0Gb/s models) or Areca (just 3.0Gb/s currently available). But ATTO and Areca will boot in EFI once they've been flashed. Both ATTO and Areca design and manufacture their own products, so their support depts. know what they're doing (Highpoint, not so much, as all of their products are ODM supplied). But the Highpoint will be fine with BIOS and running under Windows (Areca actually supplies that particular series to Highpoint).