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View Full Version : Microsoft says Firefox 'not a threat to IE'


MacBytes
Nov 12, 2004, 09:27 AM
Category: Microsoft
Link: Microsoft says Firefox \'not a threat to IE\' (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20041112102706)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

macridah
Nov 12, 2004, 09:40 AM
yeah right! So you mean IE exploits affect Firefox? Not. That guy is in denial, big time. I admit, firefox does have some exploits, but it must be 1 for every 1000 IE exploit.

Tab browsing is very important to me. I hate it when I go to my brothers house without my powerbook and have to use his PC. I have to open 4 new windows all the time.

2GMario
Nov 12, 2004, 09:51 AM
"I donít agree is that just because a (competing) product has a feature that we donít have, that feature is important. It is not. It is only important if it is a feature the customer wants.

consumers are not programmers. to a programmer, tab browsing may seam obvious. if you never offer a user a new feature, they will never know the benifits of it. kinda out of sight, out of mind.

Vamos, who admitted he has never used Firefox, said there is a lot of hype surrounding the open source movement and if Microsoft's customers wanted new features they would have told the company about it.

why would you ever comment on a product having never used it ? talk about public suicide.

either way, a article like this, and comments from microsoft or anyone else like this, is just to save thier skin. oviously microsoft will never admit that FireFox is a better product.

as for the benifits of IE over FireFox, i cannot think of any at this time. from popup blocking to tabbed browsing, microsoft lacks heavily.

articles like this make me not want to comment, but for some reason, i decide to waste my time arguing on behalf of a amazing web browser against a multi billion dollar corporation. its a endless, stupid arguement that we all know cant be won, never will be won till MS packages firefox in longhorn ( or when hell freezes over ) and is a waste of tcp packets. (or is http udp packets ? )

-Mario

Lancetx
Nov 12, 2004, 09:59 AM
This is the typical M$ elitist response. Of course they're not going to admit that Firefox is any threat, nor that IE has any missing features or unique security issues that don't affect Firefox or any other browsers.

Just as M$ severely underestimated the appeal to Windows users of iTunes/iPod vs. their inferior WMA equivalents, they're underestimating the appeal of Firefox. Every Windows user I know that has tried it, has switched to using Firefox as their default browser. Once their browser share falls below 90% (which will happen sometime in 2005) maybe they'll start finally taking some notice. The simple fact that they're now even mentioning Firefox is a good indication that they do indeed see it as at least a potential threat though.

MacDawg
Nov 12, 2004, 10:07 AM
What a Bozo!

If we don't have it (tabbed browsing), then people don't want it. Yeah, right! Because if they REALLY wanted it, we would obviously have it. 'Cause we're awesome!

No, you just ship it and tie it tightly to Windows and make it more difficult to use another browser. The person that buys their PC at Office Depot is more of a 'default' user, and just sticks with what he/she has.

And, you have your co-conspirators that make their sites only work with IE... such as Wachovia Bill Pay :mad:

Another head in the sand Bozo.

xtbfx
Nov 12, 2004, 10:20 AM
its a endless, stupid arguement that we all know cant be won, never will be won till MS packages firefox in longhorn ( or when hell freezes over )

Well hell has officially frozen over once (remember iTunes on Windows? lol).

Anyway, I have to agree with you here. Once he admitted he's never used Firefox, he basically shot himself in the foot. That's like saying "My VW Beetle rides better than your BMW" when you've never driven a BMW.

He (M$ as well) is so closed minded that they think their products are the best without testing others. I'll bet you anything that Steve Balmer hasn't even messed with Linux, yet he says it's evil.

1macker1
Nov 12, 2004, 10:40 AM
Maybe it's just me having problems with FF, but it's hella buggy, and the interface is **** to look at. I'll stick with IE, until something better comes along.

mrsebastian
Nov 12, 2004, 11:30 AM
lol, thanks for cheering me up on a rough morning with this article :D m$ may have a monopoly and will continue to do so with ie, for the simple reason most people use what's on their computer and are hesitant about downloading/installing anything. that said, that doesn't however mean they won't lose a good chunk of market share to firefox... so when's safari coming out for the pc again ;)

shamino
Nov 12, 2004, 11:31 AM
Microsoft says Firefox \'not a threat to IE\' (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20041112102706)
Microsoft says a lot of things, don't they?

I find it incredibly amusing how they claim that IE is no more insecure than anybody else.

Even if I never saw a single virus-outbreak report, I wouldn't come to that conclusion.

Lest anybody forget, Internet Explorer is the recommended method for installing Windows system software patches. They do it using a plugin system (called ActiveX) that allows for automatic installation of software that has unrestricted access to the entire computer. Designing that capability into a web browser, no matter how well protected, is a recipe for disaster.

A web browser without that cability (meaning everything besides IE), running on an OS with actual file-system protection (meaning everything except Windows) can not clobber the system software without explicit administrator intervention. No amount of Microsoft press releases can change this fact.

In comparison, Mac web browers have no ability to execute arbitrary code. Plugins are not auto-installed (the most liberal ones still ask you if you want to install them.) And anything affecting more than your own personal login requires (at least) an adminsitrator password.

Apple's software updates program does not run with administrator privileges - it makes you type in your admin password with every update. And it runs separately from your everyday internet-access tools, so they can't be abused by a screwy web-page script.

AmigoMac
Nov 12, 2004, 11:53 AM
I have switched 7 people from IE to Firefox and in our last meeting together they were all happy about it and Thunderbird.

bousozoku
Nov 12, 2004, 12:32 PM
Firefox is not a threat to IE. Internet Exploder is the threat to itself. That, and MS' developers. Taking shortcuts in design and coding and quality assurance has provided opportunities/vulnerabilities which have been exploited.

Santaduck
Nov 12, 2004, 12:37 PM
he believes that Tabbed Browsing is not important to IE customers?

I haven't met one IE user that I've introduced to tabbed browsing on another browser who hasn't thanked me profusely & never returend to IE.

But back before I myself used tabbed browsing, I didn't know what the fuss was about either, so of course I understand that current IE customers aren't clamoring for it if they don't understand what they're missing.

I'll bet you if IE added tabbed browsing to the masses, then for some reason took it away, they'd seem a mass exodus of users, much larger than the single-digit percentage point that Firefox currently holds. That's how important tabbed browsing is.

It seems like these are statements re: features & security were actually made to appease the MS stockholders, and not something he truly believes.

Blue Velvet
Nov 12, 2004, 12:38 PM
Realistically, they would say nothing else.
Standard corporate statement & position.

If it was anybody else they'd still say the same thing.

MacDawg
Nov 12, 2004, 12:44 PM
Realistically, they would say nothing else.
Standard corporate statement & position.

If it was anybody else they'd still say the same thing.

You are right... what do we expect them to say?
"Oh no! Firefox is awesome and we suck! What are we going to do?"

Nahhhh! They pump out the company line and rake in the $$$$$$$

Earendil
Nov 12, 2004, 12:46 PM
I think we can use his own words to sum up IE and the competition:

"There are plenty of products out there with features we donít have. We have plenty of features that our customers donít use."

Yep, that about does it...

Tyler Z.

wordmunger
Nov 12, 2004, 01:23 PM
A little devils' advocate:

The only thing I don't like about tabbed browsing is the lack of consistency. Sometimes links (as in MR Forums) open up in new windows, so I often end up with a bunch of extra windows anyway. Then I'll close a few of them, just to reduce clutter, and -- DOH -- there was a tab in one of them that I was still working on. At least if you are always working in separate windows, you see everything you're closing in a window. Also, on Windows, you already have a "tab" style interface at the bottom showing every document you have open, so I don't think tabs are quite as big a deal there as they are in windows.

I wonder if there's a way to code a site (or set up a browser) so that external links open in tabs, not windows. That would be very cool.

stoid
Nov 12, 2004, 01:36 PM
I wonder if there's a way to code a site (or set up a browser) so that external links open in tabs, not windows. That would be very cool.

I don't think so, but with tabbed browsing getting to be a bigger feature, and certainly once (if ever) MS gets it into IE, perhaps HTML 4.1 or whatever will include a target tag like _tab to join the ranks of _top _parent _blank and so on.

MacsRgr8
Nov 12, 2004, 01:49 PM
I am glad Steve Jobs hasn't commented:

"FireFox is not a threat to Safari"

:D

dontmatter
Nov 12, 2004, 01:55 PM
Good lord, gates, did karl rove plan your press releases!? If the facts, however blatently obvious they may be, don't support your position, deny them! Maybe people will believe you, when you tell them, that they in fact don't care for tabbed browsing, or that 100's of viruses is really comparable to 100's of 1000's of viruses, as a security threat.

This is a joke.

Ugg
Nov 12, 2004, 02:11 PM
A little devils' advocate:

The only thing I don't like about tabbed browsing is the lack of consistency. Sometimes links (as in MR Forums) open up in new windows, so I often end up with a bunch of extra windows anyway. Then I'll close a few of them, just to reduce clutter, and -- DOH -- there was a tab in one of them that I was still working on. At least if you are always working in separate windows, you see everything you're closing in a window. Also, on Windows, you already have a "tab" style interface at the bottom showing every document you have open, so I don't think tabs are quite as big a deal there as they are in windows.

I wonder if there's a way to code a site (or set up a browser) so that external links open in tabs, not windows. That would be very cool.

If you have a two-button mouse it's very easy. Just right click and select open in new tab. Maybe as tabbed browsers become more popular, it'll be an option.

BugMeNot
Nov 12, 2004, 02:24 PM
A little devils' advocate:

The only thing I don't like about tabbed browsing is the lack of consistency. Sometimes links (as in MR Forums) open up in new windows, so I often end up with a bunch of extra windows anyway. Then I'll close a few of them, just to reduce clutter, and -- DOH -- there was a tab in one of them that I was still working on. At least if you are always working in separate windows, you see everything you're closing in a window. Also, on Windows, you already have a "tab" style interface at the bottom showing every document you have open, so I don't think tabs are quite as big a deal there as they are in windows.

I wonder if there's a way to code a site (or set up a browser) so that external links open in tabs, not windows. That would be very cool.

What you're talking about is called single window mode. This extension will enable that.
https://update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?id=50&vid=673


If you look around you can find extensions that will do just about anything you can think of.

Cheers,
RZ

jettredmont
Nov 12, 2004, 02:44 PM
Good lord, gates, did karl rove plan your press releases!? If the facts, however blatently obvious they may be, don't support your position, deny them! Maybe people will believe you, when you tell them, that they in fact don't care for tabbed browsing, or that 100's of viruses is really comparable to 100's of 1000's of viruses, as a security threat.

This is a joke.

You know, that's exactly what I was going to say, but I didn't want to offend others' political sensibilities by pointing out the somewhat obvious political parallel ... glad someone did, though :)

jettredmont
Nov 12, 2004, 02:54 PM
If you have a two-button mouse it's very easy. Just right click and select open in new tab. Maybe as tabbed browsers become more popular, it'll be an option.

In Safari (OS X) and Firefox (Windows), clicking the third button (aka, the scroll wheel) will also open in a new tab. Curiously, Firefox/OSX didn't implement support for clicking the scroll wheel at all, so you have to do the right-click/select option instead of just clicking ...

This is one reason I continue to not use Firefox/OSX (while it's all I use on Windows). Another is that the UI widgets all look grossly out of place on OS X (ugly oversized list box font, drop-downs Windows-style instead of OS X widgets, you name it). A final nail in the Firefox/OSX's coffin is that it refetches data when I hit the back button where Safari and IE (and Firefox/Win) never do. That, and Safari finally allows for web hits that take longer than 60 seconds without timing out.

Other than all that, Firefox is a great browser :) Hopefully it becomes a great Mac browser in March or whenever ...

dontmatter
Nov 12, 2004, 03:02 PM
I think we can use his own words to sum up IE and the competition:

"There are plenty of products out there with features we donít have. We have plenty of features that our customers donít use."

Yep, that about does it...

Tyler Z.

The first time I read that, I didnt' realize you were quoting him! Yeah, that's bad. Particularly when you consider what he implied but didn't say-that those other features are used. Which, kinda destroys his argument that IE is great, it's just that people don't do the research... since it takes research to even know of the existance of the other browsers, let alone their features.

meaning, they've got compelling enough features people go through a lot of work to use them, and deal with lots of incompatablity issues, but IE's features suck so bad, that even though everybody on earth is there to find them and spread the word, nobody knows because nobody cares.

dontmatter
Nov 12, 2004, 03:04 PM
In Safari (OS X) and Firefox (Windows), clicking the third button (aka, the scroll wheel) will also open in a new tab. Curiously, Firefox/OSX didn't implement support for clicking the scroll wheel at all, so you have to do the right-click/select option instead of just clicking ...

This is one reason I continue to not use Firefox/OSX (while it's all I use on Windows). Another is that the UI widgets all look grossly out of place on OS X (ugly oversized list box font, drop-downs Windows-style instead of OS X widgets, you name it). A final nail in the Firefox/OSX's coffin is that it refetches data when I hit the back button where Safari and IE (and Firefox/Win) never do. That, and Safari finally allows for web hits that take longer than 60 seconds without timing out.

Other than all that, Firefox is a great browser :) Hopefully it becomes a great Mac browser in March or whenever ...

yup, and for those with apple laptops, like myself, you can either just control click, and if your prefrences are set up to do so, it will force it into a new tab, or get sidetrack, so you have a left click

Nermal
Nov 12, 2004, 03:10 PM
he believes that Tabbed Browsing is not important to IE customers?

He's right. If tabbed browsing is important to you, then you'd be using Firefox or similar, and therefore wouldn't be an IE customer :)

shamino
Nov 12, 2004, 03:14 PM
In Safari (OS X) and Firefox (Windows), clicking the third button (aka, the scroll wheel) will also open in a new tab. Curiously, Firefox/OSX didn't implement support for clicking the scroll wheel at all, so you have to do the right-click/select option instead of just clicking ...
Command-click will also open a new tab (assuming it's configured in preferences, of course.)

This is what I normally do on my Mac.

Center/wheel clicking is a well-known bug in Firefox. Several people have written patches, but so far none have made it into the actual release. Since I'm not familiar with the code (or with Mac programming in general) I can't tell if this is for a good reason or not.

shamino
Nov 12, 2004, 03:19 PM
I wonder if there's a way to code a site (or set up a browser) so that external links open in tabs, not windows. That would be very cool.
In 1.0, there is a new option on the advanced page of the preferences to select what happens to links opened from other applications - open a new window, open a new tab in the most-recently-used window, or use the most-recently-used tab in the most-recently-used window.

A command-click (or ctrl-click or wheel-click on non-Mac platforms) will cause any link to open in a new tab, even if the web site is set up to open a new window when the link is clicked.

shamino
Nov 12, 2004, 03:37 PM
... Another is that the UI widgets all look grossly out of place on OS X (ugly oversized list box font, drop-downs Windows-style instead of OS X widgets, you name it).
This is a side effect of its being based on the XUL widget library.

Firefox, like Mozilla, does not use any system widgets. It generates its own instead. This means the out-of-the-box appearence doesn't always match your OS very well, but it does mean you can install a new theme to change the look.

I've been using Noia eXtreme (http://www.deviantart.com/view/4266778/) for some time now. It's not the Aqua look, but it's pretty close and I like the way it works.

A Google search also found this page (http://aronnax.ar.funpic.de/) containing a few Mac-like themes. (Warning: Don't install these on a non-Mac installation. If you do, Firefox will refuse to launch. If you don't have a backup copy of your prefs.js file, you'll have to wipe your configurations in order to recover.)

sjk
Nov 13, 2004, 05:46 PM
If you have a two-button mouse it's very easy. Just right click and select open in new tab.Command-click in Safari (and Firefox?) opens a link in a new new tab [edit: as shamino already mentioned], which I find more convenient with a one-button mouse than using the contextual menu with a two-button mouse.