iPod Flash Early 2005?

[MacRumors]

According to sources close to AppleInsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=744), the previously rumored (thread (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040107135151.shtml), thread (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/10/20041001170829.shtml), thread (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/10/20041030000214.shtml)) flash memory-based iPod variant should go into production in December, and is expected to make a debut in early 2005. A production stockpile of 2 million units is expected to be produced prior to worldwide distribution in an effort to keep pace with demand. Interface and controls should be similar to the current click-wheel iPod and iPod Mini, and is expected to be in a storage capacity range of 256 Megabytes to 1 Gigabyte. Pricing is now expected below $200.

Steve Jobs introduced the iPod Mini at last year's MacWorld San Francisco (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040106142543.shtml) to overwhelming success. It could be expected that the new iPod Flash could debut worldwide at the January MWSF 2005 show.

[encrypt3d]

Ill stick with my 20GB one. What can you do with only 1GB?

[anubis]

too little storage for me. i think i'll stick with my mini.

[theROZ]

I think a ipod flash player is a dumb idea....

[Bear]

Again with a Flash based iPod rumor?

Actually, except for making a slot for a flash card, it could be basically the same guts as the iPod mini. So it isn't that much of a design change.

[mccoma]

wish they had made Christmas.

oh, well I guess they will have to catch all the "I got money" for Christmas crowd

[Lord Blackadder]

I might get one. I tend to destroy my MP3 players (mountain biking), so hard drive based ones are no good for me, besides the $$$. Anyway I'm only riding for 1-4 hours, so I don't need all the space. Good deal Apple, a logical step anyway.

[Veldek]

I still can't believe it. At the introduction of the iPod Photo, Steve Jobs said that the huge market share of the iPod includes "all those flash players that people received as presents and never use".

[Lord Blackadder]

Ill stick with my 20GB one. What can you do with only 1GB?

The same thing you do with a 20GB iPod, for a shorter length of time. :D

[oingoboingo]

Interesting that Steve Jobs has publically derided small capacity flash-RAM MP3 players on a number of occasions, and now is planning to offer one of his own. The Jobs quote that keeps coming to mind is "the flash player that someone gave you as a gift that is now sitting in a drawer somewhere unused". A 1GB flash player might be useful, but I can't see how a 256MB flash player, with a capacity of only a handful of albums, is going to be anything groundbreaking.

Oh well...I suppose we all should know better by now. There were plenty of people who believed the original iPod was a stupid idea, and of course the amount of negative feedback that the iPod mini generated upon its launch looks ridiculous in hindsight, given the success of the product. Maybe we should just shut up and wait and see what happens with the iPod Flash :)

[oingoboingo]

Again with a Flash based iPod rumor?

Actually, except for making a slot for a flash card, it could be basically the same guts as the iPod mini. So it isn't that much of a design change.

For a flash-RAM only player, somethign the size of the iPod mini would be way too big. Flash-based MP3 players are tiny these days...not much bigger than inline remotes on headphone cords, or the form-factor of USB memory keys. An iPod mini-sized flash player would look like a dinosaur.

[Freg3000]

wish they had made Christmas.

oh, well I guess they will have to catch all the "I got money" for Christmas crowd

I think they are quite happy with this.

Everyone buys iPods and iPod minis for the holiday season, and then Bam! January rolls around and there is another version to get.

Why eat some of your holiday sales if you can delay a new product release by a few months? Enough people will buy both to make it profitable. :D

[evilgEEk]

I think a ipod flash player is a dumb idea....
Just like everyone said the original iPod was a dumb idea and would never sell and was horribly over-priced and was just a waste of engineering...

riiiiiight... I respect your opinion, I just think you're wrong. ;)

I think a flash-based iPod will be hugely successful. It's basically the last market Apple has yet to reach with the iPod brand, and I know of a lot of friends that will be buy a flash 'pod in a second. They all love my iPod but don't want to spend 3-600 bucks on one. For that matter, had I not done the cram 'n' jam I wouldn't have got my iPod, just too much money without the rebate.

I guess time will tell.

But regardless... Go Apple! :D

[jgp]

A flash iPod makes sense. But the rest of the original blurb seems off. First, I would hope that Apple would sell it very cheap without a flash card (less than $75). Second, by time it is introduced a 4Gb micro drive may be feasible at less than $175. If the total is less than $200 and the whole thing is smaller than an iPod mini, it should be a good seller.

[wilburpan]

Two observations:

1. Regardless whether you think a 1 GB Flash-based iPod is a good idea or not, the market clearly shows that there are a lot of people who like the idea, implying that for those people, 1 GB of storage is enough. If these people get the FlashPod, and then start using iTunes, and then learn about Macs, that will be a good thing.

2. Doesn't MacRumors get their own rumors anymore? For a while now, MacRumors seems to be just a summary of AppleInsider and ThinkSecret articles, with little original content of its own.

[Daveway]

I think we will also see the mini bumped up to a 5gb and better battery life. Flash is a great idea because there is a huge market there.

[akboarder24]

sandisk just came out with 4gb and 8gb cf cards...how 'bout them apples? does that throw a wrench into your guys' nay-sayin' gears?

[Daveway]

I think we will also see the mini bumped up to a 5gb and better battery life. Flash is a great idea because there is a huge market there. Remember all the contradictions Steve has made in the past like no windows software, no pizza box imac, etc.

[Will Curran]

i like my ipaq 2215 for flash media right now my cheap-o 128mb sandisk holds 20 songs cost me 40 then theirs the price of the ipaq

well...whatever it takes for apple to make money i say...im still waiting for the clothing line

[kainjow]

Maybe they'll make it so you can attach it to your keychain ;)

It's not a dumb idea. It's a brilliant idea. Just because Steve Jobs doesn't like flash-based MP3 players, doesn't mean his company shouldn't sell them. If they want to make more money, they will sell a flash iPod. It only makes sense.

[Zigster]

I don't own an ipod, but for 99 bucks I'll buy a flash version.

And that's why they are making them. For people like me. :D

[Steamboatwillie]

I think a ipod flash player is a dumb idea....

My friend the engineer once said to me, on the topic of software engineering "When there are more than one good ideas, implement them all"

1) Big iPods for storage hungry users
2) Mini iPods for midrange users and the fashion conscious
3) Flash iPods for budget users and to fill the only niche of the mp3 market that Apple hasn't entered as of yet. (and joggers, bikers, etc)

If this rumor is true then there may be some hope yet that a low end G4 or G5 headless box/cube/sphere/whatever may also be a possibility?

[macridah]

this really affects my xmas shopping this season.

[jholzner]

I still can't believe it. At the introduction of the iPod Photo, Steve Jobs said that the huge market share of the iPod includes "all those flash players that people received as presents and never use".

Which is 65%. Why not go after that other35%?

[Inkmonkey]

For a flash-RAM only player, somethign the size of the iPod mini would be way too big. Flash-based MP3 players are tiny these days...not much bigger than inline remotes on headphone cords, or the form-factor of USB memory keys. An iPod mini-sized flash player would look like a dinosaur.

Great Maniacal Macaques! I think a lot of those flash players are way too small to be useful. I think they still need to implement the click wheel into an iPod Flash. But I'm sure Apple will figure out a way to balance the two.

[jholzner]

A flash iPod makes sense. But the rest of the original blurb seems off. First, I would hope that Apple would sell it very cheap without a flash card (less than $75). Second, by time it is introduced a 4Gb micro drive may be feasible at less than $175. If the total is less than $200 and the whole thing is smaller than an iPod mini, it should be a good seller.

I'm pretty sure they will not sell it without a flash card installed. and I would bet the farm on the fact that the flash card they do use will not be accessible. It will be encased just like the HD iPods. No switching out for bigger cards. Whey you buy is what you get.

[Inkmonkey]

I still can't believe it. At the introduction of the iPod Photo, Steve Jobs said that the huge market share of the iPod includes "all those flash players that people received as presents and never use".

Sweet Milking Marmosets! Yes, except this will be a flash player that people WILL receive as presents and WILL use. I'm sure he'll use that in his keynote somewhere. How this flash player is so much better than the others and people will use it.

[tech4all]

I hope these flash players don't cost a lot. I mean I don't think anyone would pay $200 for a flash based player; depending on the size of GB of course. If they 512MB to 1GB in size I say no more than $150 for the 1GB, but even thats a bit high, IMO.

[dejo]

Okay, for all out there desiring a flash-based iPod, what is the most important attribute:

1) Capacity?
2) Price?
3) Product size?
4) Removable flash-media?
5) Something else?

Please only pick one, cuz I bet dollars to donuts, Apple will not give you all of them.

[JediL1]

Remember what Steve said at MacWorld SF 2004:

iPod has 31% Market Share
"High-end" flash players have 31%
"Low-end" flash players have 31%
Other 7% other hard disk players iPod in process of eliminating.

iPod mini designed to go after the "High-end" flash market.

Fast forward, iPod (both models) have 65% market share. iPod Micro?!? designed to go after that last "low-end" flash player market.

[swissmann]

I think it will sell. I know a preteen girl who has an iPod Mini because it is small and cute and it's an iPod. I checked out her music collection and she only had about 20 songs on it. I have a friend who thinks the iPods are too heavy and big to run with. He just needs enough music to last him through his hour jog and have it be lightweight and skip free. I know a lot of people who would like to have an iPod but don't have enough music that they want to have with them at all times to fill more than 1 GB or so and can't justify the multihundred dollar cost. I love my 20 GB but only spent $70 on it - my predetermined rule was when I can get one for under $100 I'll get it. My brother is exactly the same way. So anyway in short I think there is a bit market for a much CHEAPER iPod. I don't think it will canabalize other iPod sales either simply because of the small storage space.

[jwhitnah]

What happened to Mac Rumors over the last few months? Infrequent 'update,' which are really recycled rumors from Think' and Applein'. :confused:

[desdomg]

My opinion on this is that the flash player market is one that Apple will ingore at its peril. It shouldnt abandon such a sizeable segment of the market to its competitors - regardless of the benefits of flash over HD, etc. Apple needs to be competing in the low end of the market as well as the high and middle. Many thought the iPod mini was going to deal with this sector, but it was priced too high. An iPod Flash would be a logical evolution of the line....

[Raveny]

iPod needs to be a luxury item. No budget things please. I hope this is just a stupid rumor. If everybody has an ipod, will it be still cool? I don't think so...

[rendezvouscp]

While it'd be a great move on Apple's part, and would be a huge success, I really don't want there to be a flash iPod. The iPod brand is expensive and luxorious, not cheap. That'd be like Abercrombie and Fitch making cheap clothes to go for the lower market. However, I think that an iPod Flash would tie up the market, and bring iPod marketshare to a good 80-85%.
-Chase

[~Shard~]

What happened to Mac Rumors over the last few months? Infrequent 'update,' which are really recycled rumors from Think' and Applein'. :confused:

Kay then, you go out, get credible secret info and run the site. I'm sure Arn would love to hear from you. :rolleyes:

[barbaloot]

Just imagine all those parents, who's kids have been begging for an iPod. But those parents that don't want to spend $250 or more. A flash iPod will just fit the bill. Parents happy, kids happy.

[rendezvouscp]

iPod needs to be a luxury item. No budget things please. I hope this is just a stupid rumor. If everybody has an ipod, will it be still cool? I don't think so...

Seems like you beat me to the punch...
-Chase

[CrackedButter]

Just like to throw down a point.

If these things are cheap and people buy them thats good.

If these people then buy music from the itunes music store then that is good also.

If these people then run out of room on these dinky things then they will have to buy a new mp3 player or manage their mood music more effectively.

Anyway since they have bought songs off iTunes, what other player can they get besides a bigger ipod that can play AAC files?
These people end up buying more ipods...

Need I say more?

[coldspot]

I hope they fail.

[TheWama]

This rumor has TheWama stamp of approval.

Consider this:
1. (http://www.macworld.com/news/2004/11/09/avc/index.php) High-Efficiency Advanced Audio Codec (HE-AAC) was recently acknowledged as a tech with Apple's support.
2. (http://www.vialicensing.com/products/HE_AAC/) HE-ACC can suposedly encode "consumer quality stereo" at 48kbps.
3. (http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/11/03.2.shtml) The only market the iPod isn't dominating is the flash market.
4. (http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/11/03.2.shtml) The flash market is growing significantly faster than the HD market, 21% vs. 12%. This despite the iPod mini.
5. (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf04/) The big problem with the small devices is the number of songs they can hold. So Steve says "they end up in a drawer somewhere".

I think HE-AAC's lower bitrate puts a flash player at a reasonable number of songs, when compared to intial offering of iPod devices, like the first iPod and the first iPod mini:

Minimum iPod Capacity offered by Apple
iPod Capacity Bit-Rate.. Songs
.1G. ..5GB.. ..128kbps.. ~1000
mini ..4GB.. ..128kbps.. ~1000
flash .1GB.. ...48kbps.. ~650

So as I said, it all makes sense.
Curious to see what they come up with for the UI...

[oingoboingo]

Kay then, you go out, get credible secret info and run the site. I'm sure Arn would love to hear from you. :rolleyes:

This absolutely superb link describes all you will ever need to know about generating new Apple rumours. Once you've read this, every new rumour appearing on any site will appear old-hat.

http://www.misterbg.org/AppleProductCycle/

[~Shard~]

I think this is great news. There is definitely a market segment which would go for these flash-based iPods, and with the overall popularity of the iPod right now, Jobs might as well milk it for all it's worth! Address pretty much all the market segments, rake in some dough - it's all good for Apple!

Yet another reason to tune into MWSF... :cool:

[~Shard~]

This absolutely superb link describes all you will ever need to know about generating new Apple rumours. Once you've read this, every new rumour appearing on any site will appear old-hat.

http://www.misterbg.org/AppleProductCycle/

Yah, I've seen that before - that's GOLD. :cool:

[mhouse]

Interesting that Steve Jobs has publically derided small capacity flash-RAM MP3 players on a number of occasions, and now is planning to offer one of his own. The Jobs quote that keeps coming to mind is "the flash player that someone gave you as a gift that is now sitting in a drawer somewhere unused". A 1GB flash player might be useful, but I can't see how a 256MB flash player, with a capacity of only a handful of albums, is going to be anything groundbreaking.

Oh well...I suppose we all should know better by now. There were plenty of people who believed the original iPod was a stupid idea, and of course the amount of negative feedback that the iPod mini generated upon its launch looks ridiculous in hindsight, given the success of the product. Maybe we should just shut up and wait and see what happens with the iPod Flash :)

Apple is very, very close to dominating the digital music arena for years to come. The *only* thing that could now ruin it for them is a flood of digital players cheap enough that folks will buy them even if they are crappier than an iPod. Hey, its the same thing that happened with the PC market, right?

So hopefully Apple has learned a lesson and understand that they have to deliver a product in the sub 200 price range even if it isn't a particularly groundbreaking product. Folks who only want to spend 100-200 bucks on their music player aren't looking for anything groundbreaking...just cheap and functional. If Apple offers that, they will be able to wrap up the entire digital music enchilada and then "Plays For Sure" will have to be changed to "No One Cares".

[~Shard~]

I hope they fail.

Thanks for the constructive, insightful argument explaining and reinforcing your position, it really contributes to the thread. Do you always like contradicting your sig? :cool:

[Savage Henry]

I hope they fail.

What?? Why ??? Bit more explaining might help your argument.

Personally, I don't think they need to break out into the flash market so soon. The mini's are still too sought for, still fit for more milking. And I doubt it will enter a market that has too much margin.

[~Shard~]

I think a ipod flash player is a dumb idea....

See my above comment... Care to elaborate?

[~Shard~]

wish they had made Christmas.

oh, well I guess they will have to catch all the "I got money" for Christmas crowd

Christmas would have been nice, but with the new iPods, iPod photos, new iBooks, new iMacs, etc. etc. I think they are generally well-positioned for the Christmas season. iPod sales in general, whether it be iPod, iPod mini or iPod photo, are going to be through the roof I'm sure, so missing out on yet another model probably isn't the end of the world. And this way, as you say, Apple can offer something to all of those people who received some cash from Santa. :cool:

[mhouse]

For a flash-RAM only player, somethign the size of the iPod mini would be way too big. Flash-based MP3 players are tiny these days...not much bigger than inline remotes on headphone cords, or the form-factor of USB memory keys. An iPod mini-sized flash player would look like a dinosaur.

Well, yeah, it would be big but that might be a good thing.

If it were very thin and slightly shorter than a mini... I think that would be a small price to pay to have a click wheel and a decent display. I think people would go for it big time.

[oingoboingo]

Yah, I've seen that before - that's GOLD. :cool:

My favourite quote from the article:

"The haters offer their assessment. The forums are ablaze with vitriolic rage. Haters pan the device for being less powerful than a Cray X1 while zealots counter that it is both smaller and lighter than a Buick Regal. The virtual slap-fight goes on and on, until obscure technical nuances like, “Will it play multiplexed Ogg Vorbis streams?” become matters of life and death."

I think it's already starting...

[~Shard~]

Hey, what is Apple going to call this thing anyway? The iPod mini mini? The iPod micro? ;)

[~Shard~]

My favourite quote from the article:

"The haters offer their assessment. The forums are ablaze with vitriolic rage. Haters pan the device for being less powerful than a Cray X1 while zealots counter that it is both smaller and lighter than a Buick Regal. The virtual slap-fight goes on and on, until obscure technical nuances like, “Will it play multiplexed Ogg Vorbis streams?” become matters of life and death."

I think it's already starting...

I'd agree with that. However, I also think there's some interesting points to consider in the sections that comment on Apple's stock, what with the recent turn of events on Wall Street... hmm.... ;)

[bentmywookie]

In my opinion, the size difference between a regular iPod and an iPod mini isn't significant enough on its own to warrant the purchase of 4gbs at $250 vs. 20gbs at $300. But taking in the total package - the mini looks "cooler" to me, and I think that's what gets (most) people.

Nice, colorful brushed alumninum + the tiny factor + being the new(er) device makes the iPod mini attractive as fashion over function. I think that's one thing that will help sell a flash-based iPod (if it does come out). Apple will certainly make it look cool, GQ will certainly remind me that I NEED one, and I, with at least $100 to spare on my credit limit, will almost certainly go buy it - regardless of the price vs. performance ratio with the other iPods.

With that said, I will pray tonight that a significant announcement such as this at MWSF will not preclude the introduction of new dual-core powerbooks.

[dotnina]

So what kind of form factor do you think this flash-based iPod will have? I think it’ll be smaller than the Mini, but then what sort of interface would it have? I don’t think you can reasonably do the click wheel on something smaller than a Mini. If they keep a touchpad on this, I’m thinking they might run it along the top or side of the device … but how usable would that be?

Ok, those of you talented with Photoshop – commence the mockups. :D

[Porchland]

A flash iPod makes sense. But the rest of the original blurb seems off. First, I would hope that Apple would sell it very cheap without a flash card (less than $75). Second, by time it is introduced a 4Gb micro drive may be feasible at less than $175. If the total is less than $200 and the whole thing is smaller than an iPod mini, it should be a good seller.

To me, the huge question mark from every perspective -- design, manufacturing, cost, etc. -- is whether the flash card will upgradable or will be embedded in the player as the hard drive is in the iPod/mini.

I would expect Apple to do something more than simply roll out a 1 GB iPod mini for $150 and say, by the way, it's flash. iPod Sport?

[aswitcher]

This rumor has TheWama stamp of approval.

Consider this:
1. (http://www.macworld.com/news/2004/11/09/avc/index.php) High-Efficiency Advanced Audio Codec (HE-AAC) was recently acknowledged as a tech with Apple's support.
2. (http://www.vialicensing.com/products/HE_AAC/) HE-ACC can suposedly encode "consumer quality stereo" at 48kbps.
3. (http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/11/03.2.shtml) The only market the iPod isn't dominating is the flash market.
4. (http://www.macobserver.com/article/2004/11/03.2.shtml) The flash market is growing significantly faster than the HD market, 21% vs. 12%. This despite the iPod mini.
5. (http://www.apple.com/quicktime/qtv/mwsf04/) The big problem with the small devices is the number of songs they can hold. So Steve says "they end up in a drawer somewhere".

I think HE-AAC's lower bitrate puts a flash player at a reasonable number of songs, when compared to intial offering of iPod devices, like the first iPod and the first iPod mini:

Minimum iPod Capacity offered by Apple
iPod Capacity Bit-Rate.. Songs
.1G. ..5GB.. ..128kbps.. ~1000
mini ..4GB.. ..128kbps.. ~1000
flash .1GB.. ...48kbps.. ~650

So as I said, it all makes sense.
Curious to see what they come up with for the UI...
----------------------------------------------------------
Eagerly awaiting word back from Apple on an internship I interviewed for.
If you work for Apple, I'd appreciate a little help.
If you don't I could use a few prayers or good wishes or something.


The new compression will be Steve's excuse for going to flash against his previous claims. I think its going to be a gig as well for the same reasons. If 2 million is right then economies of scale should allow a nice well priced little mini-mini-ipod...

[dstorey]

I know i'll be so wrong but here is my idea on how it could be done.

Take a key chain usb size device, mould it to the shape of a marker pen, made of aluminium tube, similar to the iPod mini. The cap end would be either physically twistable, or a sensor where you run your finger round it as if you were twisting it. If twistable it would be diamond etched like the grip of a torch. That would take up much less room that a traditional scroll wheel. The display would be on one side of the tube (well tubes dont have sides but you know what i mean), with maybe room for one or two songs. The other end would have either a retractable usb connector or a cap that came off. The end would have an apple logo and the other end with the dial would have a rocker switch for play, pause etc. Or maybe the buttons could be some place else. The usb would be usb 2 so it could be used as a regular key chain device for swapping files between pc's, and it would have 1 gb of space, for 149 but i wouldnt be surprised at 199. Call it something like the iPod sport. Thats my ideas anyway on how to fit it in a smaller size.

[~Shard~]

I don't care what it looks like as long as it doesn't resemble this... :cool:

[Zigster]

For extraneous, luxury non-essential items like IPOD, $99 is a major price point.

I think Swissman called it right.

If I have to give up something, I'd give up replaceable flash if I could get keychain size and ez to use. :D

[Porchland]

This absolutely superb link describes all you will ever need to know about generating new Apple rumours. Once you've read this, every new rumour appearing on any site will appear old-hat.

http://www.misterbg.org/AppleProductCycle/

We're now at Phase Four: "Eager Mac-heads fan the flames by flooding the Mac discussion forums with more groundless conjecture. Threads pop up around feature wish lists, favorite colors, and likely retail price points. In a matter of days, a third-hand, unsubstantiated rumor blossoms into a hand-held device that can do everything except find a girlfriend for a fat, smelly nerd."

[Mechcozmo]

We're now at Phase Four: "Eager Mac-heads fan the flames by flooding the Mac discussion forums with more groundless conjecture. Threads pop up around feature wish lists, favorite colors, and likely retail price points. In a matter of days, a third-hand, unsubstantiated rumor blossoms into a hand-held device that can do everything except find a girlfriend for a fat, smelly nerd."

Okay then...

It should cure cancer, be a silver/blue mix that changes when exposed to sunlight, and cost $99. And I am not fat... or smelly... a girlfriend would be nice... :rolleyes:

Ohhh! And can play multiplexed Ogg Vorbis streams? Tell me or I snap and kill you all!!! :D

[deral]

Hmmm...I already got an regular sized iPod, and so my mindframe is that whenever new generations of iPods come out, I drool, wipe, and then walk away. I have no desire to get a second iPod at $399+ since I already have one.

When Apple releases a micro-mini-teenie-weenie iPod--then maybe then I'd be enticed to get a second one. Why? maybe because of the idea that this small iPod would be cheaper and smaller than mines, so it would be more of an accessory to my iPod rather than a replacement.

Here's my analogy. An Apple pie at McKidies is 93 cents. But you can buy two for a dollar. Most of the times, I really don't need the second Apple iPie, but I'd buy the two for one special because that second pie, costs a lot cheaper than buying one.

I know I'm not making sense, but what I'm trying to get at is that maybe other people, like me, might by a smaller cheaper iPod as their second iPod just because

[supergod]

The only reason they would even think of doing this is if it netted more money for them than minis. If they could manage to make a nice profit on these they'll do it. They don't really need to appeal to the flash player market right now: they're doing damn fine with hard drive players. On a side note, if this means 8 gig iPod minis, I'm all for it. I've got around 7 gigs of music so the current minis are obviously out, but I don't want a 20 gig iPod (especially when the minis are better designed and less damaged by wear and tear). The question I have is whether new iPod minis would still have the same price or whether they would be introduced at a higher price tag (total suckage) and whether they'll introduce new body colours and maybe new wheel colours, which i personally think would be really tight. White iPod mini with green wheel...

[Abstract]

Just like everyone said the original iPod was a dumb idea and would never sell and was horribly over-priced and was just a waste of engineering...

riiiiiight... I respect your opinion, I just think you're wrong. ;)


Yes, but the original iPod came out when the market was fresh and nobody knew exactly what a good HD player was or what it could offer in terms of interface. A flash based iPod can't really be revolutionary at this point. They're going into a maturing market, so people already have an idea of whether this is a good idea or not. There are lots of good flash based players out already. Much different situation.

All those people saying that they want a cheap player with 256MB, 512MB or 1GB cards.....well, I don't think Apple will offer anything smaller than 1GB. I'm also not quite sure if Apple would offer it for anything less than $200, which isn't THAT much cheaper than the iPod Mini.

And then you can argue that the iPod brand will carry it through. Well, a flash iPod will need to take a different form factor entirely, so the signature look won't carry through to this player.


And can someone tell me how much 1GB of memory costs in the USA nowadays? How about 1GB flash mp3 players? They sure seem to cost more than $200....

[smurfjammer]

Apple likes to do things in three's - iPod Mini, iPod, iPod Photo.

If there's going to be a flash based iPod, the Mini will lose it's hard drive and be replaced will a removable flash drive...

(We don't want too many models...anyone remember what was happening at Apple before Steve came back - too many models and losing too many $$$$)

[Laslo Panaflex]

Apple needs to quit being so obsessed with the iPod, I mean, even the new iMac is an iPod look alike. The iPod is great, I love it, and a cheaper and more accessable iPod for the low end is great, but I thought that Apple made computers??!?!?

Apple needs to make a inexpensive headless mac, I know friends that have an iPod and love it, but would never buy a mac becuase they are too expensive, and they can't play the majority of the PC games.

Which leads me to part 2, Apple needs to take the initiative and port PC games to the mac. They have the ability to make the games the most compatible and run optimimally becuase they have access to the OS X source code, and they have the cash to pay for the rights to port the games.

If Apple had a headless mac, and ported games, there would be no reason for people to use a PC, Period. I know that it is no easy task to take on, but it needs to be done, if apple wants to get more people to buy mac computers.

[iGen]

1GB iPod mini $199
5GB iPod mini $249
MWSF '05

[Xtremehkr]

I wish the iPod Mini Itty Bitty the best of luck. It is still going to be a stylish, high quality Apple product that people will like wearing. It will still be compatible with the best Music Store on the internet. And it will meet the needs of those who are looking for something small to take to the gym or something.

I have an iPod Mini which serves both purposes for me, but eventually I will replace that with a regular iPod and probably a Mini Itty Bitty for the Gym and riding my bike etc.

There are some people who don't seem to like anything Apple does.

[Steven1621]

I might get one. I tend to destroy my MP3 players (mountain biking), so hard drive based ones are no good for me, besides the $$$. Anyway I'm only riding for 1-4 hours, so I don't need all the space. Good deal Apple, a logical step anyway.

exactly. my ipod sucks for running. a flash based player to to hold an hour or two worth of music would be perfect for me. perhaps with an FM tuner, it might be perfect.

[rikers_mailbox]

I don't want to sounds like a n00b here. . . but seems like Apple would want to release a flash-based iPod before the holidays. Think of the huge amout of buzz that Apple would create.

Remember, Apple is still a computer company. The iPods are just a really successful side project. Bottom line is, the more people that come in the store, the more computers go out the door. (didn't mean it to rhyme like that!) What better time than when the zombies* are out holiday shopping?

Which reminds me. I was in the Pasadena store the other day while someone was buying an Airport Express. I SWEAR I heard the Apple-guy say that the price was lowered from $129 to $116. But the Apple Store (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/71601/wo/Vb4RyRlCi3tP2Z7Yg412Y5kaqeU/0.0.11.1.0.6.21.1.9.1.0.0.0.1.0) doesn't show a change. Am I hearing things again? :confused:

* zombies = wintel user-base :p

[maclamb]

Jobs apparently contradicting himself is no biggie - he's not talking about a flash player that APPLE has made - just the other guys.
and, true I thought the mini - was dumb.
Until I got one for my wife for her birthday (thankyouthankyouthankyou, steve).
color me true believer.
and, steve has a history of good instincts...
or, at least *associating* with people with good instincts, which , from here, looks the same.

[mhouse]

Yes, but the original iPod came out when the market was fresh and nobody knew exactly what a good HD player was or what it could offer in terms of interface. A flash based iPod can't really be revolutionary at this point. They're going into a maturing market, so people already have an idea of whether this is a good idea or not. There are lots of good flash based players out already. Much different situation.

Yes and no. A flash-based iPod absolutely can be revolutionary and the market, though marginally more mature that the HD-based market was when the the original iPod debuted, is far from mature in a business sense.

The vast majority of folks, that aren't into tech like we are, probably don't own a 'digital music player' of any kind and certainly have no clue what a 'flash-based digital music player' is. Just add the numbers...Apple has sold, what 10 million iPods? Add another 15 million of all other brands of digital music players (and I think that's being generous). 25 million isn't a drop in the global bucket for a product as potentially ubiquitous as a music player.

All Apple *has* to do is shrink the iPod mini slightly, slap varying sizes of flash memory (non-replacable would be my guess; though someone will hack that inside of a week), and they have *finished* the digital music business. They will own it.

Now, hopefully, they'll do something more than that, but that is all that is necessary.

[AidenShaw]

Interesting that Steve Jobs has publically derided small capacity flash-RAM MP3 players on a number of occasions, and now is planning to offer one of his own. :)


And when the "makeup mirror" iMac G4 was introduced, the Lord God Jobs said how stupid it would be to put the computer on the back of the LCD screen....

Then came the iMac G5, with the computer on the back of the LCD screen.

The man is without honour, totally without honour....

[AirUncleP]

2 miles into a marathon my ipod locked up on me. Do you know how bad a feeling that is? A flash based iPod would be my preference as a runner. Lighter, less likely to have a problem.

[alywa]

I find it fascinating that so many people are against this. I know tons of people who are using iTunes on their PC as their intro into "digitized music" (ie ripping music off of their own CD's). I have had many conversations with them trying to explain that MP3's are different than AAC are different than WMA, etc.

"So, can you take your iPod to the gym?", "I don't have 10,000 songs", "It's just a little too big".

Why can't people see this for what it is. An inexpensive, high-quality flash based player that (ready for it....) WILL INTEGRATE WITH iTUNES!!!!!

Right now, to fully integrate with iTunes, one needs an expensive, HD based player. This is more than many people want. Instead, a small form-factor flashed based player will give them what they want, integrate with iTunes, and allow them to purchase from the ITMS.

Let's keep a close eye on this thread over the next few months... I'm willing to bet that these things will be impossible to get due to overwhelming demand once they are introduced. Remember... there are a lot more non-geeks out there than we are surrounded with in our worlds.

-alywa
(proud 4g 40GB iPod owner)

[AirUncleP]

Ladies and Gentlemen....I give you......the iPod Micro

[hughdogg]

Why can't people see this for what it is. An inexpensive, high-quality flash based player that (ready for it....) WILL INTEGRATE WITH iTUNES!!!!!

Right now, to fully integrate with iTunes, one needs an expensive, HD based player. This is more than many people want. Instead, a small form-factor flashed based player will give them what they want, integrate with iTunes, and allow them to purchase from the ITMS.

1. My thoughts exactly.
2. Can the flash memory be removable without causing the record companies to have a stroke that people will be swapping the cards with friends, ebay, etc.??? Can the DRM work on flash cards?

Cheers,
hughdogg

[toughboy]

Ill stick with my 20GB one. What can you do with only 1GB?

I just entered to see what people think about a 1gb player and it is nice seeing that the first post is totally agreeing with me.. a week later I'm going to upgrade my harddisk drive from 40gb to 200gb and I'm planning to make a music collection of 50gb or more.. well what can a flashbased player do to me??? plus I want to carry divx and other stuff with my iPod too.. :rolleyes:

[applekid]

Apparently the hip-hop crowd Apple is targeting is too poor to afford even an iPod Mini. Steve, we'll need a 512 MB at the minimum with a 2 GB at the maximum that is well under $200.

I do think the flash market is viable despite Steve's potential contradiction on the topic, but there are a few things that concern me:

Anybody seen the latest USB-based flash MP3 players? So, let's assume we'll see Firewire since this is Apple. Perhaps a dock? A tiny tiny dock...

Now the shape... The competition comes in a triangular prism stick shape. Apple, will need something much smaller than the iPod Mini to compete now. Look around, iRiver and Mpio have prism stick MP3 players. I'd like to see a flat stick like those USB flash memory sticks, but that may be to small. Perhaps something that looks like a really tiny iPod. It'll display maybe four lines or so, shrink the scroll-wheel a bit. How's something about 2 inches by 2.5 inches? It's more square than the other iPods. It'll need to be thick enough for a headphone jack and then some.

Add power... The competition only needs to add a AA or AAA battery. Apple going to go rechargeable? Can Apple find a battery that small? This time, battery life really matters. The competition can last up to 60 hours. You may wonder why, but think about it: They don't want/need to recharge it and they probably won't need to modify their playlist often enough.

Expandable? This is the stumper. Will adopt a memory card standard (which I doubt) or will they have non-removable flash inside? I think Apple doesn't want anything to be removable.

Price point? 1 GB flash-based MP3 players are going for under $200. In fact, it's about $180 to get one of those. Well, Apple might play it right and sell whatever their maximum size is at $199 and going as low as $99.

We'll see next year.

[toughboy]

Apple needs to quit being so obsessed with the iPod, I mean, even the new iMac is an iPod look alike. The iPod is great, I love it, and a cheaper and more accessable iPod for the low end is great, but I thought that Apple made computers??!?!?

Apple needs to make a inexpensive headless mac, I know friends that have an iPod and love it, but would never buy a mac becuase they are too expensive, and they can't play the majority of the PC games.

Which leads me to part 2, Apple needs to take the initiative and port PC games to the mac. They have the ability to make the games the most compatible and run optimimally becuase they have access to the OS X source code, and they have the cash to pay for the rights to port the games.

If Apple had a headless mac, and ported games, there would be no reason for people to use a PC, Period. I know that it is no easy task to take on, but it needs to be done, if apple wants to get more people to buy mac computers.

I'm not with you with the idea of iPod-obsessiveness, cause I like the harmony that iMac G5 and iPod has.. Apple should sell more and iPods, cause as they sell them, they'll sell more music too. Plus iMac and iPod look good together, as an iPod lover and 2-3rd generation iPod user, I wished I could have enough money to buy an iMac G5...

But the rest of your opinions, I could not agree more. a cheap, good enough to beat a Pentium 4 and headless mac and porting the games into Mac platform would beat the PCs in every sense. there would be noone buying PCs then...

[Jovian9]

Flash is a great idea because there is a huge market there. Remember all the contradictions Steve has made in the past like no windows software, no pizza box imac, etc.

All of these things that were not supposed to be..........are. So when do we get an Apple PDA:)

[strikey]

Apple likes to do things in three's - iPod Mini, iPod, iPod Photo.

If there's going to be a flash based iPod, the Mini will lose it's hard drive and be replaced will a removable flash drive...

(We don't want too many models...anyone remember what was happening at Apple before Steve came back - too many models and losing too many $$$$)

After reading an hours worth of garbage about the so called flash ipod "smurfjammer" is the only one even close to the money.

Mark my words! There will be no new model "flash ipod"!!

The flash variant "is" Ver2 of the existing ipod mini. It will start at 1gb and evolve over time to an 8gb version as the price point of flash cards drop. Initially I predict that there will be 1gb & 2gb flash versions along side of 4gb & 8gb hd versions.

The good news will see a 1gb ipod at a lower price point.

The bad news for some is that the card wont be removable.

Mental telepathy with an Appleseed

[toughboy]

The memory card inside should be removable, Period! I dont care if Apple is going to do it in that way or not, but if I, as an iPod owner already, am going to buy a flash player for a different use (jogging etc) I'm going to buy something with removable flash card, removable batteries, and it will be small in size.

[tveric]

I remember when the Mini came out, and 90% of the geniuses posting on this website were like "oh man $249!!! that's crazy for 4 GB, it isn't enough, you can't do anything with that!"

Fast forward to the release of the Mini and you couldn't easily get your hands on one for MONTHS due to the crazy demand.

So why don't all you experts hang back a bit to see what happens. Odds are you'll be wrong again.

[unsigned]

2. Can the flash memory be removable without causing the record companies to have a stroke that people will be swapping the cards with friends, ebay, etc.??? Can the DRM work on flash cards?


Flash memory is just addressed like a drive. Ever have a memory card reader? It's all just a "mass storage device" to the computer.

If they have swappable cards, tho, it would have to be as big as the current mini (the hard drive in there is basically a compact flash card).

There's only two ways I can think of to get smaller: use SD card, or solder the ram on the motherboard. If you want to be smaller and cheaper, solder everything into one chip. It's how all the myriad flash players do it.


But then they have horrible interfaces. The mini already is perfectly fine in size. My personal problem is that there's a phone in my pocket, too, and also a camera.

ipod phone flash makes a ton of sense to me. iPod flash, eh, I guess I can see the market point and I hope I am surprised by apple.

click wheel touchscreen?


they did an interesting thing with the mini, they innovated on their bottom end and brought it to the top. I fit gets any simpler in a smart way, we can have smaller ipods also?

(except their drives make em that shape)

[toughboy]

I remember when the Mini came out, and 90% of the geniuses posting on this website were like "oh man $249!!! that's crazy for 4 GB, it isn't enough, you can't do anything with that!"

Fast forward to the release of the Mini and you couldn't easily get your hands on one for MONTHS due to the crazy demand.

So why don't all you experts hang back a bit to see what happens. Odds are you'll be wrong again.

the "iPod Micro" will sell, for sure, but it does not change the facts that

1) iPod Mini was wonderfully crafted and was STILL OVERPRICED
2) Apple, infact, is having real problems with supply chain management.

[FelixDerKater]

Personally, I think this is bad for sales. It may be helpful for certain groups, such as runners who can exhaust even the iPod's extensive anti-skip memory, as well as people not willing to pay the price for an iPod Mini or regular iPod. Apple runs the risk of cutting into sales of the other iPods, picking up only small amounts of revenue with the lower-capacity iPods.

[dejo]

Ladies and Gentlemen....I give you......the iPod Micro

Nice mockup, AirUncleP! I hate to nit-pick, but what is the height of your new iPod Micro? It's certainly not 3.6"...

[iAlan]

I am waiting to see if teh iPod Photo is a success or not before thinking about the success possibilities of a 'flashPod'.

Before talking about the flashPod but a little of topic...I think people will buy the iPod Photo because of capacity (60GB) not the photo capabiity. While I love the idea of photos being shared via a TV, I do not think the iPod is the best way. I actually make slideshows on DVD, given blank media disks are now between $2-$4 each (I got 5 Apple DVD-R for 1,260 yen ($14), cause I like the little Apple logo, but I have seen 10 packs by respected makers for 2,000 yen ($22) that work just fine) and can leave or give the disks to someone.

Back to the flashPod, why do people buy flash players? Is it cost, size of the device or memory size?

I can't imagine it is memory size.

If it is cost, then Apple will have to price it just right, but that may mean a cheapening of the Apple iPod brand, I mean those stupid little iPod socks are an example of a $5 idea being priced by Apple at $26..., so how could they offer a price compeditive flash player,Rremember there was not much choice on hard disk players when the iPod came out, and although people said it was too expensive, you have to remember it was head and shoulders above the existing hard discc players - and priced relatively competitively, and flash players were at that time just, well, crap.

If people are after flash playes because of size, how will Apple intergrate the often copied but never beaten interface? We have seen variations of the scroll wheel, but nothing comes close. What interface willa flashpod have (or a screen for that matter)? However, if anyone can redesign the Apple interface for a flash player, it will be Apple.

Bottom line, Apple does not need to cheapen the iPod franchise. People may trade up from a flashpod to an iPod if they get a good user experience, I do not think anyone will trade down after using an iPod, and some of us may use both( I mean, I have a first gen iPod which I will hold onto, but am no longer using. I have a 3rd gen (30GB first touch button design) which I sink with my whole library and a blue iPod mini which I sink with 'checked' songs only....and I want the U2Pod...) but Apple will be treading in deep water with this and I think a flashPod will be the iPod equivalent of teh Cube (great design, but badly priced and positioned).

[The Man]

How about seeing a 2 and 4 GB Apple Flash player. Now that I will consider buying. How about the 4 GB mini getting flash and Apple introducing a one color only 2 GB flash mini? Anything less than 2 GB seems pointless to me, because the iPod has always stood for getting lots of music with you.

[virividox]

im not a fan of flash bsically because of the storage size, but i can see some people who love the size of their flash players and dont really need al their music with them at all times so if apple can capture that market more power to them i suppose

[SiliconAddict]

I think a ipod flash player is a dumb idea....

Is everyone, OK maybe just most, ;) just plain dense? Apple has decided to go it alone when it comes to iTMS. Consequently they have to provide the total solution. Like it or not this includes low end devices. (News flash $250 is NOT low end.) There is a LARGE market for flash players out there and if Apple doesn’t cover the low end they are going to see potential revenue erode because others will make these players and resulting customers will go to other music stores. Apple put themselves in this position by not licensing FairPlay.
I’m really sick of seeing arrogant snobs treat anything that doesn’t have X storage as inferior. The fact of the matter is there are people out there that can’t, and frankly in some cases won’t, spend $250+ on a hard drive device. Esp when they can get a device that accomplishes the basics of playing a few albums for a substantially cheaper price then an iPod. So please. For the love off all that is sane think about this before you crap on the idea of a flash player. How many of you were doing the same dang thing when Apple first came out with the iPod in the first place? Give it 6 months after it comes out and starts selling like a bat out of hell. You will all be calling it a brilliant, strategic move on Apple's part. :rolleyes:

[Xtremehkr]

And when the "makeup mirror" iMac G4 was introduced, the Lord God Jobs said how stupid it would be to put the computer on the back of the LCD screen....

Then came the iMac G5, with the computer on the back of the LCD screen.

The man is without honour, totally without honour....

Well, it's quite admirable that someone can (in a way) admit that they are wrong. Maybe during the time the G4 iMac came out it would have been silly because of how it would have looked. I am imaging a hump backed iMac due to not having the right components. I would say that he has more honor in acknowleding that while at the time it may not have been a good idea, it is a good idea now. I think the new design of the iMac suits users needs perfectly, the more desktop space that is saved the better. He could have been self conscious and stuck to the norm, but that would have been to the detriment of the new space saving design. He's not a god, just a guy who is fallible, like us all.

[SpaceMagic]

The reason, I believe, Steve Jobs has negatively commented on 'those flash based players everyone gets for Christmas but never use" is because these players are not user friendly, unattractive and a pain in the *profanity* to get music on.

With the iTunes and iPod interface there can be no better way to transfer Music. Also, relying on the success of iPods, people with iPod Flash will want to show off that they too own an iPod. Surely a cheap $150 1 GB device will break this market.

All in all, my iTunes library is just over 6GB. The only choice for me is the iPod iPod :p

[jhomayne]

finally!

a small, cheap(!!!) ipod that i can stick a 50-100 song playlist on for when im going for a walk.

:)

[timnosenzo]

I think it's cool. It fills a niche of buyers not willing to plunk down $250 on a mini, or people worried about destroying a HDD while they're out running or whatever. :D

[artifex]

sorry, this is only related in the sense that it's about an ipod order:

I ordered a U2 iPod last month, and today I got an email stating it shipped.
I went to FedEx's website to confirm it, and got this:

Nov 13, 2004 3:46 PM
Left origin
SHANGHAI CN
3:06 PM
Picked up
SHANGHAI CN
Future delivery requested
11:10 AM
Package data transmitted to FedEx; package not in FedEx possession


1) Can someone tell me if there's going to be some kind of customs issue because it's shipping from freaking China??? I expected it to be from a warehouse here in the US.
2) also, they say the expected delivery is 11/19... since they also say "future delivery requested" does that mean they're telling FedEx to deliberately sit on my iPod (hopefully not really sit, like UPS would do without asking), or does that just mean when they first put the # in the system they hadn't picked up the package, yet?

Sorry, just anxious, this is my first Apple buying experience, and it's causing much more anxiety than I expected.

[sushi]

According to sources close to AppleInsider (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=744), the previously rumored (thread (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040107135151.shtml), thread (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/10/20041001170829.shtml), thread (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/10/20041030000214.shtml)) flash memory-based iPod variant should go into production in December, and is expected to make a debut in early 2005. A production stockpile of 2 million units is expected to be produced prior to worldwide distribution in an effort to keep pace with demand. Interface and controls should be similar to the current click-wheel iPod and iPod Mini, and is expected to be in a storage capacity range of 256 Megabytes to 1 Gigabyte. Pricing is now expected below $200.

Steve Jobs introduced the iPod Mini at last year's MacWorld San Francisco (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/01/20040106142543.shtml) to overwhelming success. It could be expected that the new iPod Flash could debut worldwide at the January MWSF 2005 show.
Flash MP3 players are the rage here in Japan. So many models...so many options.

A 1 or 2 GB model would be fantastic. Especially if the interface and integration with iTunes is similar to the current mini iPod. Want something thinner and lighter than the current mini iPod that has a much longer battery life. My current 256MB MP3 flash player runs 14 hours on a charge.

...and of course if the price was right.

For me the price point would be $150 for 1GB or $200 for 2GB.

Recording feature would be nice as well.

Here's hoping! :D

Sushi

[sushi]

I still can't believe it. At the introduction of the iPod Photo, Steve Jobs said that the huge market share of the iPod includes "all those flash players that people received as presents and never use".
I believe that SJ is referring to the cheap 64, 128, 256MB models that are selling like hotcakes these days.

They don't have enough space to hold much music.

Now a 1 or 2 GB model would be great.

Even at a high quality MP3 encoding (2MB per minute) you could still store over 8 hours of music on a 1Gb model. For many commuters, this would be plenty.

Sushi

[sushi]

The same thing you do with a 20GB iPod, for a shorter length of time. :D
Maybe longer.

Flash based players tend to have much longer battery lifes.

Sushi

[DavidLeblond]

Woo what a rumor to wake up to!

I'll SO buy one of these. I've wanted one ever since the iPod came out. :D

[TheInevitable]

http://members.cox.net/binch/ipodmicro.jpg

Check out the new touchscreen wheel. I'm so buying one.

[unsigned]

http://members.cox.net/binch/ipodmicro.jpg

Check out the new touchscreen wheel. I'm so buying one.

square up the screen and you're on to something.

[sushi]

I have seen 10 packs by respected makers for 2,000 yen ($22) that work just fine) and can leave or give the disks to someone.
Wow! You must like to pay high prices. :eek:

You can get good blank DVD-Rs much cheaper. For example, a 10 pack for 980 yen on sale for 880 yen. At 107 yen to the dollar, that's $9.16 and $8.22 respectively for a 10 pack.

Sushi

[sushi]

square up the screen and you're on to something.
Maybe so.

Make the touchpad square. Agree.

Make the case more squarish on the sides. Thinner too. Have 1 or 2 GB. At least 10 hour battery. Hang it on a neck chain. Incorporate the headphone cord in the neck chain. Sweet.

Sushi

[artifex]

Wow! You must like to pay high prices. :eek:

You can get good blank DVD-Rs much cheaper. For example, a 10 pack for 980 yen on sale for 880 yen. At 107 yen to the dollar, that's $9.16 and $8.22 respectively for a 10 pack.

Sushi

And here I thought the average $29-36 we pay here in Texas for spindles of 50 name brand + or - discs in retail stores was too much. They're actually cheaper now, but I'm averaging last 6 months.

Finally see +R DL discs at about $10 each, too. I predict they'll be down to $5 after the holidays.

[sushi]

And here I thought the average $29-36 we pay here in Texas for spindles of 50 name brand + or - discs in retail stores was too much. They're actually cheaper now, but I'm averaging last 6 months.

Finally see +R DL discs at about $10 each, too. I predict they'll be down to $5 after the holidays.
In my original quote, I was referring to Japan retail prices...not the states since the other member lives in Japan as well. Guess I should have made that more clear.

Nice to see that you are getting good prices in Texas.

It will be interesting to see how fast DL discs become popular. Right now the price is a barrier.

Sushi

[rickvanr]

http://members.cox.net/binch/ipodmicro.jpg

Check out the new touchscreen wheel. I'm so buying one.

If they did make something like that, it wouldn't be cheap... all cheap flash players are crap with a little rectangle screen, and crap buttons.

Also, another comment was people dont want 64, 128, sizes because they dont hold anything... people who are buying these tiny storage mp3 players dont care about quality, so thay have their mp3s at low bit rates which are downloaded off kazaa...

[BWhaler]

What about the aac+ factor?

if we can get quality music at a lower bit rate, a flash iPod may be the best of both worlds. Tons of music, no skipping, tiny form, lower price.

If Apple pulls this off, in addition to iTunes and ITMS, they could own the flash market.

[one3]

Maybe so.

Make the touchpad square. Agree.

Make the case more squarish on the sides. Thinner too. Have 1 or 2 GB. At least 10 hour battery. Hang it on a neck chain. Incorporate the headphone cord in the neck chain. Sweet.

Sushi

Why not make it all round instead? ... would look neat hanging from a cord like a necklace ... or something similar to the old pocket watches.... maybe even have a 'clock' mode

http://one3interactive.com/ipdomicro2.jpg

[ClimbingTheLog]

Guys, don't underestimate the importance of AAC Plus for the iPod Micro.

Listen here to what ACC Plus sounds like at 24k:

http://www.telos-systems.com/aacplus/samples/jazz/cap_24m_105.wav

That's right - 24k. You could fit over a thousand songs on a 1GB iPod Micro.

In fact, I'm predicting that the iPod Micro will be AAC-Plus *only*. You won't be able to get full quality out of it. Maybe you can chose between 24k and 48k. It will be a starter iPod for some, a companion iPod for others, a "better walkman" for those who will never manage to afford a real iPod.

Besides creating a repurchase path, his makes the silicon requirements so much lower (no need for dual-ARMs and a PortalPlayer) which will further reduce costs, allowing something in the sub-$150 range.

[ClimbingTheLog]

Why not make it all round instead?

You've got a nice design there - I like it. I don't think it's consistant with the iPod branding/industrial design, though, so Apple may feel differently.

It should be said, though, that form follows function, and the iPod is the shape it is due to the shape of a hard drive, so....

[one3]

You've got a nice design there - I like it. I don't think it's consistant with the iPod branding/industrial design, though, so Apple may feel differently.

It should be said, though, that form follows function, and the iPod is the shape it is due to the shape of a hard drive, so....

You've got a point there ... so what if we make it white with the clear edge like the new iMacs?


http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicro3.jpg

[afields]

Nice that the iPod is getting all the attention. Wake me when theres a powerbook update. :p

[~Shard~]

Why not make it all round instead? ... would look neat hanging from a cord like a necklace ... or something similar to the old pocket watches.... maybe even have a 'clock' mode

http://one3interactive.com/ipdomicro2.jpg

Nice mock-ups, I like it! Leave it to a fellow Canuck to come up with something so ingenious. ;) :cool:

If Apple went with that design their biggest complaint would be from people who end up losing the players since they're so small! Can you imagine that though? An MP3 player the size of a half-dollar? "Damn, I think I mistook my new iPod for a quarter at the vending machine! This better be the best Coke ever..." :eek: ;)

[iProbot]

The Flash-pod will only be introduced as an excuse for the rather high prices of the iPods! :mad:

[rickvanr]

the round idea is amazing... now that looks cool... especially like the watch idea... could bring back the old fashioned pocket watch

[one3]

This one has a side view too ... haven't figured out the location of headphone jack etc ... maybe at the very bottom?

http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicro4.jpg

[barkmonster]

Guys, don't underestimate the importance of AAC Plus for the iPod Micro.

Listen here to what ACC Plus sounds like at 24k:

http://www.telos-systems.com/aacplus/samples/jazz/cap_24m_105.wav

That's right - 24k. You could fit over a thousand songs on a 1GB iPod Micro.

In fact, I'm predicting that the iPod Micro will be AAC-Plus *only*. You won't be able to get full quality out of it. Maybe you can chose between 24k and 48k. It will be a starter iPod for some, a companion iPod for others, a "better walkman" for those who will never manage to afford a real iPod.

Besides creating a repurchase path, his makes the silicon requirements so much lower (no need for dual-ARMs and a PortalPlayer) which will further reduce costs, allowing something in the sub-$150 range.

That was not only mono but had the life compressed out of it (in the audio sense, not the data sense). It was VERY impressive for the bitrate, I'd like to hear something very complex at 64Kbps Stereo before I'm 100% on it being CD quality or comparable. It's WAY better than what AAC or MP3 can muster at that bitdepth though, even maintains the samplerate of 44.1Khz instead of downsampling to 22 or 11Khz like aac or mp3 encoding does at such low rates.

[artifex]

Nice that the iPod is getting all the attention. Wake me when theres a powerbook update. :p

a black g5 powerbook... with a red round touchpad :)
You can tell I'm looking outside my window every 15 minutes for the FedEx truck, can't you? :D

As far as having an iPod necklace, there are several shiny little MP3 medallions already on the market. It'd be cool to have one using Bluetooth to headphones, though. I think for a device like that, glossy white isn't what you want. It should be metallic to make it feel sturdier. Expanding on the etching service (I wasn't allowed to etch mine, something about signatures... ), there should be a locket version for the ladies... that would give the face more protection also. Imagine a little apple logo etched on a silver cover! There should be a matte black color, also.

edit:
Apple making tekno jewelry... that'd be awesome. Little bespoke devices, straight out of a certain novel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Age)... yes, that's where I got my name, also :)

[artifex]

Nice mock-ups, I like it! Leave it to a fellow Canuck to come up with something so ingenious. ;) :cool:

If Apple went with that design their biggest complaint would be from people who end up losing the players since they're so small! Can you imagine that though? An MP3 player the size of a half-dollar? "Damn, I think I mistook my new iPod for a quarter at the vending machine! This better be the best Coke ever..." :eek: ;)

I thought you guys all drank Pepsi?

:eek: :p

Besides, I haven't seen machine that accept half dollars in ages?

[TheInevitable]

This one has a side view too ... haven't figured out the location of headphone jack etc ... maybe at the very bottom?

http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicro4.jpg
I say the headphones screw in to the bottom (thats right, I said screw) so that way when they are attached to your head, the iPodwatch just hangs from the cords... or something.

[one3]

Here's one more (last) mockup showing the back as well (including engraving).

http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicro6.jpg

[jhomayne]

iPod needs to be a luxury item. No budget things please. I hope this is just a stupid rumor. If everybody has an ipod, will it be still cool? I don't think so...
the ipod does not need to be a luxury item.

[neutrino23]

I agree with TheWama and others. The introduction of HE AAC will be key to making this work for Apple. The size could stay the same as that of the iPod Mini. Let the iPod Mini move to 6GB or so. Introduce the iPod Micro at 1GB. It could hold roughly 650 songs or less depending on your needs. If you are running or snow boarding you don't really need ultra-high fidelity.

If it does use HE-AAC then I'm guessing this would come out together with Tiger

Also, iPod sales are still accelerating. An ultra-cheap player with the same feature set as a high end player would just undercut existing sales. So Apple wants to come out with a flash based player but it is in no hurry. Maybe in the spring there will be some new iPods with some new features. The flash iPod would be differentiated by not having all the new features.

What if iTunes had an automatic compressor for use when downloading to an iPod? You could keep your music on your computer in loss-less or a high bit rate compression format. When copying to the iPod Micro you choose a higher level of compression. iTunes compresses the files as they are copied. This takes a little time but now you don't have to juggle multiple file formats (high quality on your Mac, small file size on the iPod Micro).

[Zaty]

I'm surprised that rumours about a flash iPod don't seem to die, are they onto something or are they just a bunch of experts who have a valid point, a 1 GB flash iPod would be great, but who don't want to accept that there will never be a flash iPod? I'll only believe it when I see it.

[applekid]

Here's one more (last) mockup showing the back as well (including engraving).

http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicro6.jpg

You're on to something... If Apple made something like that...

Add a hold switch, a dock/cable port, headphone jack, and maybe even a new remote port.

But would the screen have to be an actual click wheel as well? That'd be interesting to see. You should also make it display the song info like the regular iPod.

Draw me some more mock ups. They're looking good. :)

[Poff]

Somehow I cannot believe it will go below 1GB. But a 256MB one would be enough for me. So if this rumour is true, it's way cooler than I imagined.. :D

[one3]

http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicro.gif

[artifex]

the ipod does not need to be a luxury item.

This seems like of one of those buying your culture things.
When people are trying to be exclusionary, they don't want ordinary people to be able to buy into the lifestyle.

[artifex]

You're on to something... If Apple made something like that...

Add a hold switch, a dock/cable port, headphone jack, and maybe even a new remote port.

But would the screen have to be an actual click wheel as well? That'd be interesting to see. You should also make it display the song info like the regular iPod.

Draw me some more mock ups. They're looking good. :)


What if the bezel could rotate, like on a watch? you could cycle through things and maybe even control volume. awesome.

[AmigoMac]

http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicro.gif

This guy makes me think about to return my iPod Photo and wait for MWSF ... :D

Wait, My wife likes it... it could be a good company...

Note: I write believing on the mockup above... looks cool.

You give me a new hope!

[sushi]

Why not make it all round instead? ... would look neat hanging from a cord like a necklace ... or something similar to the old pocket watches.... maybe even have a 'clock' mode

http://one3interactive.com/ipdomicro2.jpg
Insteresting idea.

Only issue, is less space to display the music information.

Sushi

[sushi]

http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicro.gif
Cool.

Would suggest the micro would hang from the top vice bottom. That way the display would look correct to others.

In Japan, there are many MP3 players that work this way. Don't need a separate carrying device. Just loop the neck chain over your head and plug in the earphones. Very sweet.

Sushi

[appleface]

i know apple puts out some fabulously designed products, so i trust the "ipod itty" will be no exception. however, i find it difficult to believe that apple will release a player (with or without flash) that will hold less than 1,000 songs. the giant capacities of its players is part of the overindulgence and elite-ness that ipoders love; it helps consumers to justify spending $250 on an mp3 player. i think that jobs and apple will happily and grandly release a new & smaller nextPod in january. however, i cannot believe that it will hold less than 1,000 until i hear it from the man in black.

[neier]

Before talking about the flashPod but a little of topic...I think people will buy the iPod Photo because of capacity (60GB) not the photo capabiity. While I love the idea of photos being shared via a TV, I do not think the iPod is the best way. I actually make slideshows on DVD, given blank media disks are now between $2-$4 each (I got 5 Apple DVD-R for 1,260 yen ($14), cause I like the little Apple logo, but I have seen 10 packs by respected makers for 2,000 yen ($22) that work just fine) and can leave or give the disks to someone.


iAlan -- If you are just burning slideshows to send to people for one-time viewing, there are many stores in Akihabara which sell spindles of blank DVD-R media for less than 50 yen a disc. I think the cheapest I saw the last time I was down there is 2900 for 100. No way would I trust those discs with anything important, but they make for cheap distribution of pictures and iMovies. :)

Also, I agree with your analysis of the 60GB buyers. When the 30GB came out, a lot of the early adopters bought it (like me), even though we were hoping for 40GB. The 40GB replaced it relatively quickly, but I didn't want to upgrade something that was less than 6 months old. A year later, we were still waiting for the size bump. Apple gave us new click-wheel iPods, but still a 40GB maximum -- until the iPP. I upgraded to the 60GB player, and the photo capability was not a deciding factor.

[JGowan]

Ill stick with my 20GB one. What can you do with only 1GB?Well, I did a smart playlist of songs capped at 1GB and not longer than 4 minutes ... looks like almost 20HRS of music (and almost 400 songs) could keep some people quite happy.

[aswitcher]

Nah they wont make it round.

First up it has to spawn sales of computers and a computer with a round LCD doesn't cut it ;)

Secondly, and more practically, round is not a good form factor for scrolling through menus. Sure a touch screen may one day happen but I think a small 3 line lcd is more likely above the tried and tested scroll wheel.

[strikey]

Obviously not many responses to this post so I'll post it again.

After reading an hours worth of garbage about the so called flash ipod "smurfjammer" is the only one even close to the money.

Mark my words! There will be no "new model" flash ipod in the new year!!

The flash variant will be just an upgrade of the existing ipod mini. It will start at 1gb and evolve over time to an 8gb version as the price point of flash cards drop. Initially I predict that there will be 1gb & 2gb flash versions along side of the 4gb hd versions. There are already 4gb & 8gb cf cards on the market but are way too expensive for Apple to make a good ROI.

The good news will see a 1gb ipod at the lower price point that most punters are putting up here.

The bad news for some is that the card wont be removable.

Also there are some furtile minds wasting their talent designing stuff for Apple for free. The round ipod is at least 3 years away due to the fact that compact flash cards are still square. Use your brains people, when you see round flash cards on the market you will see round ipods.

Mental telepathy with an Appleseed

[~Shard~]

a black g5 powerbook... with a red round touchpad :)


Yes, a black PowerBook, because Apple doesn't have enough troubles as it is already with G5 heating issues in confined spaces. :rolleyes: :p

[~Shard~]

I thought you guys all drank Pepsi?

"You guys"?!? Sorry, don't follow ya. :confused: And personally, I don't drink any pop, I like putting as little garbage into my system as possible... ;) :cool:

Besides, I haven't seen machine that accept half dollars in ages?

Nah, I don't know if they ever did - I was simply inconsistent in my example. ;) I never see Canadian 50-cent pieces in circulation at all here, although I think you can use them... I only ever see them at banks, etc. as a part of collector sets.

[dejo]

Also there are some furtile minds wasting their talent designing stuff for Apple for free. The round ipod is at least 3 years away due to the fact that compact flash cards are still square. Use your brains people, when you see round flash cards on the market you will see round ipods.

What's so wrong with putting a SMALLER, square flash card inside a round enclosure? It's not THAT hard to imagine. (And let's not get started about putting a square peg in a round hole.) I think the concept is doable.

[one3]

Also there are some furtile minds wasting their talent designing stuff for Apple for free. The round ipod is at least 3 years away due to the fact that compact flash cards are still square. Use your brains people, when you see round flash cards on the market you will see round ipods.


I did have a good laugh reading your post. Thanks. (read: irony)

1. As noted by a previous smart poster ... a smaller square flash card would fit inside a larger round enclosure. That's not rocket science.

2. You really think that my "free" design would be used by Apple? Come on... It was done for FUN. For the enjoyment of other Forumn members.

Geeeesh.

[g4cubed]

If the player excepted a memory card, I would consider buying one then. You could have your songs, playlists or genres on different cards. This way it would be expandable and more versitile. Apple could even be like Sony and have their own memory cards. The player comes with a 256Mb card for $150. With 256Mb, 512Mb and 1Gb cards that you could purchase thru Apple.

[DavidLeblond]

What's so wrong with putting a SMALLER, square flash card inside a round enclosure? It's not THAT hard to imagine. (And let's not get started about putting a square peg in a round hole.) I think the concept is doable.

xD cards are pretty small.

Too lazy to go back and look, but has anyone thought about how the round iPod Flash/Micro would fit in a dock?

It looks nice tho... I could see a black silhouette dancing around with it around their neck.

[Mechcozmo]

Too lazy to go back and look, but has anyone thought about how the round iPod Flash/Micro would fit in a dock?

Press reeeeaaally reeeeaaally hard. I think there would be either a new "mini-Dock" connection or just a smaller FireWire connection.

[~Shard~]

Press reeeeaaally reeeeaaally hard. I think there would be either a new "mini-Dock" connection or just a smaller FireWire connection.

Or Wireless FireWire... :eek: ;)

[artifex]

"You guys"?!? Sorry, don't follow ya. :confused: And personally, I don't drink any pop, I like putting as little garbage into my system as possible... ;) :cool:


You know, Apple people. I'm an outsider :)

Also, I've been to the Canadian Mint, I loved those quarters you had back in the year 2000.

[artifex]

The bad news for some is that the card wont be removable.

Also there are some furtile minds wasting their talent designing stuff for Apple for free. The round ipod is at least 3 years away due to the fact that compact flash cards are still square. Use your brains people, when you see round flash cards on the market you will see round ipods.

Mental telepathy with an Appleseed

Let me get this straight... it won't be removable, but you insist the memory will have that form factor anyway? Ever seen a USB pendrive? Ever seen a clear one? Ever seen how small the chip is that actually carries the memory? :)

[rickvanr]

You know, Apple people. I'm an outsider :)

Also, I've been to the Canadian Mint, I loved those quarters you had back in the year 2000.

were those the provincial quarters?

[9hundred]

To the render man: You should work at apple and replace or work closely with ian the designer. Or apple should hold a competition for young people to design products that they will find more usefull and apealing.

If I design the new flash ipod, I would make it flat in a smilar form to the aluminium powerbooks. A completely intergrated shape without any groves and absoultly flat. The interface would be touch sensitive through smoked plastic and illuminate when touched to show controls. The screen would be level with the controls in one flat smooth triple creditcard size.

[strikey]

Let me get this straight... it won't be removable, but you insist the memory will have that form factor anyway? Ever seen a USB pendrive? Ever seen a clear one? Ever seen how small the chip is that actually carries the memory? :)


Sure, but how much do they cost?? Ive seen 4gb pen drives @ $400, that's more costly than an ipod mini and they aren't that small either!

Mental telepathy with an Appleseed

[strikey]

[QUOTE=DavidLeblond]xD cards are pretty small.

xd cards in 1gb format cost more than an ipod mini, we are trying to make an entry level ipod here!!


Mental telepathy with an Appleseed

[~Shard~]

You know, Apple people. I'm an outsider :)

Ah, gotcha - makes sense now. Thanks for the compliment then. ;)

Also, I've been to the Canadian Mint, I loved those quarters you had back in the year 2000.

Yah, those were pretty nice. It was either the year before or the year after that we has a quarter for each province and territory as well, which was cool. This year, there was an extremely limited number of special quarters released just about a week ago, for Remembrance Day (November 11th) - they actually had a red poppy (a symbolic flower, I won't get into it here...) in the center. Supposedly it's one of the only (if not THE only) quarter ever released in the world with color on it. :cool:

Which Mint did you visit? The one in Ottawa is the original mint, but the one in Winnipeg is the one which manufactures all the coinage now...

[~Shard~]

were those the provincial quarters?

No, I think those were the Millennium quarters, each with different themes and designs. I think the provincial quarters were the year before, if I remember correctly...

[~Shard~]

Here are pictures of the 1999 (http://www.downtownstamps.bc.ca/coins/sales_coins_99.html) and 2000 (http://www.downtownstamps.bc.ca/coins/sales_coins_2000.html) series. The provincial quarters were way before that, back in 1992 (http://dph1701.tripod.com/50quarters/canada.html) - my memory failed me on that one!

Anyway, that's enough off-topic posting for now - but hey, you asked... ;) :cool:

[cheekyspanky]

People often mention that Apple are the BMW of the computer/music business, and they seem (as this rumour would suggest) to be going down the same route, releasing cheaper, lower luxury items - that make the brand more common and accessible - while the companies largely rely on exclusivity to justify their higher prices and brand image.

Do any of you guys think that reducing the cost of buying into the brand will reduce the desirability of the brand at the same time, or is this part of Apples big plan to change its image from a company that sells aspirational products to one that sells day to day products, and increase sales as a result?

[SLAPSHOTW]

You're on to something... If Apple made something like that...

Add a hold switch, a dock/cable port, headphone jack, and maybe even a new remote port.

But would the screen have to be an actual click wheel as well? That'd be interesting to see. You should also make it display the song info like the regular iPod.

Draw me some more mock ups. They're looking good. :)

Why can't the white space around the screen be the touchwheel?

-Matt

[tveric]

Do any of you guys think that reducing the cost of buying into the brand will reduce the desirability of the brand at the same time, or is this part of Apples big plan to change its image from a company that sells aspirational products to one that sells day to day products, and increase sales as a result?

Seems to me they want to introduce a product that people will buy. Right now everyone knows what an ipod is (in fact, you could argue that it's become a generic name, like Kleenex means tissues or Xerox means copies), but not everyone can afford one.

A flash-based ipod will allow more people to buy one that want one. It didn't make sense 2 years ago because 64 or 128 megs would only get you 15 to 40 songs (depending on song lengths and quality), but since flash memory, like everything else, decreases in price over time, now you can make an ipod with 256 MB to 1 GB and still keep it under $200 and still make a profit.

It just makes sense to provide a product for which there's already demand. Will it help the Apple brand in the long term? Who knows, but I can't see how it would hurt.

[one3]

OK Kids... one more variation of the iPod Micro.
This time the 'click wheel' becomes a 'click slider' - works similar to click wheel, you can click on the buttons or slide left to right to navigate. Holding down the "menu/play/pause" button for a second or two goes to the menu, but just doing a quick click activates "play/pause". A less radical design then my 'round' iPod mockup. :)

http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicrob.jpg

[legacyb4]

I'm so ready to see one hit the market early next year... only hope that Apple does the right thing and let's the consumer bump up the storage capacity (unlikely though...)

[sushi]

Mark my words! There will be no "new model" flash ipod in the new year!!
Uh, one thing that you are not taking into consideration is the weight of the mini iPod. While it is small and light compared to other HD based MP3 players, it is very heavy for a flash unit.

So I don't believe that Apple will just use the same shell and put flash memory in it. Nope. Not SJ. He will have his team come up with something else that is smaller, lighter and has a great interface to it.

Sushi

[sushi]

The round ipod is at least 3 years away due to the fact that compact flash cards are still square. Use your brains people, when you see round flash cards on the market you will see round ipods.
Why do you think that Apple will have a removable memory model?

I doubt they will. It is not their style. They prefer the more sturdy enclosure type without removable battery or memory slot.

So the round concept is very much a possibility.

I was down in Akihabara today. Almost bought a 1GB Flash Memory player for 20,800 yen. I was so tempted. If it wasn't for this rumor board and the possibility of an Apple flash memory based player, it would have been mine today.

With 1GB I can store 512 minutes or 8.53 hours of music. And I encode at 2MB per minute (256Kbps, TS, 44,100). At half that rate, it would store over 17 hours of music. That's a significant amount!

Sushi

[strikey]

Uh, one thing that you are not taking into consideration is the weight of the mini iPod. While it is small and light compared to other HD based MP3 players, it is very heavy for a flash unit.

So I don't believe that Apple will just use the same shell and put flash memory in it. Nope. Not SJ. He will have his team come up with something else that is smaller, lighter and has a great interface to it.

Sushi

Oh, yes you are right it will be lighter and maybe smaller but still called the iPod mini, as most upgrades or revisions go. It is too expensive to launch and market yet another totally new product!!

Mental telepathy with an Appleseed

[strikey]

Why do you think that Apple will have a removable memory model?

I doubt they will. It is not their style. They prefer the more sturdy enclosure type without removable battery or memory slot.

Sushi

No, I didnt say that. Everyone else is hoping its removable. I agreee with you, and besides there is no future sales or upgrade path if you have a removable card. SJobs isnt that stupid.

Just imagine buying a 1gb removable flash card iPod today and then in 2-3 years time you buy a 8gb card for $50, or in 10 years a 100gb card for $25, how does Apple make a buck out of that.

Mental telepathy with an Appleseed

[dejo]

No, I didnt say that. Everyone else is hoping its removable. I agreee with you, and besides there is no future sales or upgrade path if you have a removable card. SJobs isnt that stupid.

Just imagine buying a 1gb removable flash card iPod today and then in 2-3 years time you buy a 8gb card for $50, or in 10 years a 100gb card for $25, how does Apple make a buck out of that.

Mental telepathy with an Appleseed

Maybe they'll pull a Sony and come out with their own, proprietary flash card format, a la the Memory Stick.

[zv470]

hmm...

4G iPod 20GB
4G iPod 40GB
4G iPod Photo 40GB
4G iPod Photo 60GB
4G iPod U2 20GB
iPod Mini 4GB Blue
iPod Mini 4GB Green
iPod Mini 4GB Gold
iPod Mini 4GB Pink
iPod Mini 4GB Silver

...and now...

iPod Flash 256MB
iPod Flash 1GB

...what?

It's starting to be really confusing which one to buy? Buy them all? :o I sold my 3G iPod 40 when the new 4Gs came out, (miss it) but gonna wait for early next year before I buy another one. But hell which one am I gonna choose? =]

[mightyskin]

We all know that with ipods we are all paying a premium price. At the moment there is no great incentive for apple to reduce prices because at the moment as soon as theyre made theyre sold. If the forecasters are right there is going to be another shortage this festive season where worldwide demand is going to outstrip supply. Presumerably sometime next year the manufacturers of the these 1" and 1.8" hard drives are going to ramp up enough to provide enough. At the moment Apple gets the drives far cheaper than any other mp3 player manufacturer just because of its volume of sales. As these other manufacturers increase their sales volumes they will start to get discounts (on top of the fact that the drives will get cheaper as the hard disk makers ramp up their volumes). Thus sometime next year there will be some pressure on apple to reduce prices on the ipod.
The price of the flash ipods will provide an initial respite from this by providing an ipod at 1 or 2 or possibly more price points below the ipod mini. Apple will be relying on having a product that will not only be beautifully designed, have the ipod cachet, but will also have the legendary integration with itunes and ease of use to compete with other flash players that will be significantly cheaper which we will start to see in supermarkets etc.
To give it the ease of use of use we expect with apple products it will need a screen of a certain size. so we can assume that a fair bit of one side is going to be taken up by the screen. It will be interesting to see how they then get the equivalent of the click wheel on there - I'm sure we'll find out in January

[The Man]

iPod mini Flash: 2 GB and 4 GB
iPod: 20 GB and 40 GB
iPod Photo: 40 GB and 60 GB
iPod SE: 20 GB

Apple cannot afford making their lineup confusing. If there is going to be flash, then it would be the mini that's going flash with 2 and 4 GB versions. Don't expect cheap 256 MB or 1 GB versions, because people will start to get confused: Shall I go for a 256 MB, 1 GB, maybe 2 GB, or go for 4 GB, maybe I should go 20 GB? It won't work. And when people buy a 256 MB model or 1 GB model and then find out that they needed more, this means that there will be lots of frustrated people. Apple likes to keep it simple these days, unlike in the past when I couldn't decide which Performa I should actually buy.

If Apple is going Flash in the future, I predict it will be the mini and it will go 2 GB for $199 and 4 GB $249. Can Apple get flash at extremely low prices? That's the main question. That's what I doubt.

[mightyskin]

Apple cannot afford making their lineup confusing. If there is going to be flash, then it would be the mini that's going flash with 2 and 4 GB versions. Don't expect cheap 256 MB or 1 GB versions, because people will start to get confused: Shall I go for a 256 MB, 1 GB, maybe 2 GB, or go for 4 GB, maybe I should go 20 GB? It won't work. And when people buy a 256 MB model or 1 GB model and then find out that they needed more, this means that there will be lots of frustrated people. Apple likes to keep it simple these days, unlike in the past when I couldn't decide which Performa I should actually buy.

If Apple is going Flash in the future, I predict it will be the mini and it will go 2 GB for $199 and 4 GB $249. Can Apple get flash at extremely low prices? That's the main question. That's what I doubt.

Hi The Man
You make some good points about confusing line ups and the time of the performa, but i would say there are also some differences between this and then. For one when the performa was around although apple had a larger share than now it was still to some extent a niche market in that it was aiming for people who were technologically literate and saw a need for a computer where as music players in general are mass market ie consumerism and thus has a fair number of differenciated markets. Also the numbers we are talking about are of a different order with apple cpus we are talking a few million a year with ipods we could be talking in tens of millions soon. There would also be quite a difference between a mini and a flash ipod - eg size, weight, price? battery life etc. Of course the other major difference is the size of memory. Yet its important to remember that in this day of 60GB ipods that a great many people who are not as ipod/cpu literate are still used to a cd with ten tracks so if a 512MB flash ipod can hold 100/200 songs (assuming this new acc+ or whatever its called allows people to reduce bit rate) for many people this will appear to be enough - especially as filling up a new selection of songs will take such a short time because of its size.
I for one was wrong when i was not initially impressed by the ipod mini's price and storage size. The Gb per £ (or $) was so poor I didnt see the wood for the trees and recognise it was a product that fitted an emerging market. I would guess there would be a vast market for a 512MB and a 1GB market apple flash player which would overlap to some extent with the miniipod market, but apple would prefer to lose miniipod profits to itself than another player. Plus I would guess the mini ipod will go up to 6GB sometime in 2005.
The apple ipod has definitely fitted in with the zeitgeist of our times to such an extent that the zeitgeist seems more to be fitting into the ipod culture than the other way round. I think apple sees such an opportunity to influence if not dominate the whole of the the portable music market it would be a wasted opportunity bot to have a flash player.
Anyway it will be interesting to see who if any of us are right

[sushi]

Oh, yes you are right it will be lighter and maybe smaller but still called the iPod mini, as most upgrades or revisions go. It is too expensive to launch and market yet another totally new product!!
I don't see a problem with the following linup:

iPod Flash -- For those who need a flash based player. This will be very light and compact. Significantly smaller and lighter than the mini.

iPod mini -- For those who want a small but full featured HD based player, but do not need the capacity of a large HD.

iPod -- For those who want a full featured HD based player, and need the capacity of a large HD.

All share the easy integration with iTunes which is what makes this solution superior to others. Within each category new models are introduced as capacity increases.

Simple and not to confusing I would think.

Okay, I am somewhat biased because we have offerings here in Japan that are not available outside of Japan. Today I took a hard look at the RIO SU10. It is a 1GB flash memory based player. Has a built in voice recorder. It would have cost me $195 today.

Here is the URL for the SU10:

http://www.rioaudio.jp/product/su10/

I currently have the RIO SU30 (256MB, voice recorder, FM radio). No longer made. Replaced by the SU35.

Here is the URL for the SU30:

http://www.rioaudio.jp/product/su30/index.html

Both the SU30 and SU10 are much smaller and lighter compared to the mini iPod. Below is a volume and weight comparison between the mini iPod and SU10:

Volume comparison:
- Mini iPod: 58.97 cm3 (9.14 x 5.08 x 1.27)
- SU10: 44.86 cm3 (9.1 x 2.9 x 1.7)
- Difference: SU10 is about 24% smaller

Weight comparison:
- Mini iPod: 103g
- SU10: 31g
- Difference: SU10 is about 70% lighter

These differences are huge!

That is why I strongly believe that we will eventually see a flash based player from Apple. The market is too big for them to ignore. Capacities are up to 1GB (fairly common).

I could see some folks owning all three iPods. One for the car, one for around town and one for working out.

In my case, when my 1st Gen 10GB one dies, I will replace it with the biggest iPod available at the time. The other one that I want is the flash based one for working out and skiing.

I love my SU30. Just hang it from my neck and pop in the earphones and I'm ready to go. I sure cannot do that with either the iPod or mini iPod. And yes, I tried it with the iPod. My neck got sore after a few days of skiing. Granted the mini iPod would be lighter, but still both are rather big and inconvenient to wear around your neck. And no, I am not going to spend $400-500 for a special jacket that holds my iPod and provides controlls in the sleave. No need when I have the SU30 or SU10.

To be fair, I must say that the SU30 is not without issues. I really miss the cool interface of the iPod and integration with iTunes. This is what makes the iPod line so powerful. And I miss the FW data transfer speeds.

Here's hoping that Apple does come up with a nice flash based player.

Sushi

[Psychic Shopper]

Pricing is now expected below $200.

Any kind of small electronic device that is put thru the rigors of jogging/bike riding will break, I'd rather abreak a $200 device than a $400 one

[sushi]

Just a thought...

The iPod is advertised as holding 10,000 songs and the iPod mini at 1,000 songs.

With a 2GB flash version, that would be 500 songs. That's a nice round number! Seems to me that this would work out fine.

Even a 1GB version that holds 250 songs would be okay.

Sushi

[~Shard~]

4G iPod 20GB
4G iPod 40GB
4G iPod Photo 40GB
4G iPod Photo 60GB
4G iPod U2 20GB
iPod Mini 4GB Blue
iPod Mini 4GB Green
iPod Mini 4GB Gold
iPod Mini 4GB Pink
iPod Mini 4GB Silver

...and now...

iPod Flash 256MB
iPod Flash 1GB

...what?

It's starting to be really confusing which one to buy? Buy them all? :o

Come on, it's not really that bad. After all, you've listed the iPod mini 5 times - just because it comes in different colors doesn't mean people are going to be confused which one to buy, I think they're smart enough to realize it's the same device - or do colors confuse you? :p ;)

[The Man]

We'll see who is right in this discussion. In any case, I have been waiting for a flash based iPod in the size of 2 GB and up. I'll be the first one to snatch one up. 2 GB is still not much, but perhaps Apple will couple this 2 GB flash player with the new AAC Plus. We'll see soon enough. Carrying along about 40 CDs with me seems about right. That's a pretty good selection on long trips. 2 GB for $199, that's my target. Long battery life and no worries about hard drive failure when you jog, that's what I long for.

[Porchland]

iPod mini Flash: 2 GB and 4 GB
iPod: 20 GB and 40 GB
iPod Photo: 40 GB and 60 GB
iPod SE: 20 GB

Apple cannot afford making their lineup confusing. If there is going to be flash, then it would be the mini that's going flash with 2 and 4 GB versions. Don't expect cheap 256 MB or 1 GB versions, because people will start to get confused: Shall I go for a 256 MB, 1 GB, maybe 2 GB, or go for 4 GB, maybe I should go 20 GB? It won't work. And when people buy a 256 MB model or 1 GB model and then find out that they needed more, this means that there will be lots of frustrated people. Apple likes to keep it simple these days, unlike in the past when I couldn't decide which Performa I should actually buy.

If Apple is going Flash in the future, I predict it will be the mini and it will go 2 GB for $199 and 4 GB $249. Can Apple get flash at extremely low prices? That's the main question. That's what I doubt.


I certainly think Apple will go with either Option A or Option B. Option A is, as you described, integrating flash into the iPod mini. Option B is developing a smaller form factor and marketing it differently somehow, i.e., iPod sport, iPod micro, etc.

There are lots of good reasons for Apple to go either way, so it will be interesting to follow the speculation over the next two months.

[artifex]

Ah, gotcha - makes sense now. Thanks for the compliment then. ;)



Yah, those were pretty nice. It was either the year before or the year after that we has a quarter for each province and territory as well, which was cool. This year, there was an extremely limited number of special quarters released just about a week ago, for Remembrance Day (November 11th) - they actually had a red poppy (a symbolic flower, I won't get into it here...) in the center. Supposedly it's one of the only (if not THE only) quarter ever released in the world with color on it. :cool:

Which Mint did you visit? The one in Ottawa is the original mint, but the one in Winnipeg is the one which manufactures all the coinage now...


It was Ottawa... I was referring to millenium quarters, but I saw the provincials while I was there. I'm really curious about those red poppy quarters, I'll have to go to the mint's website and check them out, maybe try to get some :)

[artifex]

Do any of you guys think that reducing the cost of buying into the brand will reduce the desirability of the brand at the same time, or is this part of Apples big plan to change its image from a company that sells aspirational products to one that sells day to day products, and increase sales as a result?

If they make really good stuff, is it a bad thing if they make the same quality available to more people?

Motives of the people saying "yes" should be questioned.

[~Shard~]

It was Ottawa... I was referring to millenium quarters, but I saw the provincials while I was there. I'm really curious about those red poppy quarters, I'll have to go to the mint's website and check them out, maybe try to get some :)

You can check it out here (http://www.rcmint.ca/poppy/home.asp) or here (http://www.mint.ca/microsite/en/index.asp). :)

[~Shard~]

Here's a thought - maybe Apple won't introduce a completely new line of flash-based iPods, rather just augment the iPod mini line to include a 1 GB player, and make it flash-based. This would alleviate any problems with having too many products etc. - just keep it simple. :cool: Of course, you would still have the image of different products, since the iPod flash would no doubt be smaller, etc., but at least they could simply branding. Nah, who am I kidding, it'll never happen... ;)

[cheekyspanky]

If they make really good stuff, is it a bad thing if they make the same quality available to more people?

Motives of the people saying "yes" should be questioned.

It's not a bad thing at all, but Apple trades on its image of exclusivity and luxury. If you take away the exclusive aspect then you have to take away the high prices too, and if you do this with one product line that bears all the hallmarks of every other product line then you have to offer lower prices across the board.

Yes, this can be considered a good thing for us, we get to have the cool new Apple gear at lower prices, but if everyone else has it too then the desirability decreases. Would you value your iPod/iMac/Powerbook etc as much if it cost half as much?

Again, I point out I'm not trying to say this is a bad thing as such, just that it could signal quite a change in peoples perceptions of Apple - and their future market share in both computers and music.

[applekid]

OK Kids... one more variation of the iPod Micro.
This time the 'click wheel' becomes a 'click slider' - works similar to click wheel, you can click on the buttons or slide left to right to navigate. Holding down the "menu/play/pause" button for a second or two goes to the menu, but just doing a quick click activates "play/pause". A less radical design then my 'round' iPod mockup. :)

http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicrob.jpg

Hmmmmm. Yes, we're probably going to have to stick with the rectangular block design for a while or maybe more rounded off like the iPod Mini. The flash iPods will definitely need some color cases.

The Menu/Play button is going to be a little funny. Maybe the Play/Menu click area needs to be larger than the other two. It'll look more like a D-Pad on a game controller then. We're missing a select button! Ah! :eek:

I find your idea completely innovative though. Some good thinking going on in your brain. :cool:

Maybe Apple needs to make a completely new interface for this iPod. You will undoubtedly have fewer songs depending on the size of memory and scrolling that quickly will become useless. However, one of the major features of the iPod over other MP3 players has been its scroll wheel which is great for changing the volume.

I find the circle idea to make more sense. Perhaps the circle iPod Micro could fit inside a square. What was the bezel on the circle will act as a scroll wheel, or even click wheel. That way, the screen can be a simple square LCD. But, we'd still be missing a select button. Clicking the LCD doesn't seem too good. Maybe the LCD will be a touchpad for the select button?

[bdkennedy1]

Ill stick with my 20GB one. What can you do with only 1GB?

Uhhhh, carry around 100 songs, which is exactly what I want.

[one3]

The Menu/Play button is going to be a little funny. Maybe the Play/Menu click area needs to be larger than the other two. It'll look more like a D-Pad on a game controller then. We're missing a select button! Ah! :eek:

I find your idea completely innovative though. Some good thinking going on in your brain. :cool:


Thanks! As for leaving out the select button ... that's just one of a thousand reasons you won't see me replacing Jonathan Ive any day soon :) :) .... but it was fun just to play around in Photoshop.

[iPost]

2 miles into a marathon my ipod locked up on me. Do you know how bad a feeling that is? A flash based iPod would be my preference as a runner. Lighter, less likely to have a problem.

My thoughts exactly! I own three iPods (two 2nd gens and a mini), and I've switched to a flash player for working out. At the gym yesterday, there was a woman trying to work out while CARRYING a full size iPod in her hand. Every time she went to a new exercise station, she'd look for a place to set the iPod down, constantly being concerned whether it would fall or get knocked over. I wondered why anyone would try to work out being tethered to the iPod brick. I tried years ago using the belt clip and I was always worried that it would pull my shorts down!

I switched to the mini (fits in my shorts pocket), but after the second time it locked up, I got concerned that I might be damaging it, so I've switched to using a Rio player.

I prefer AAC to MP3 or WMA, so I will be among those in line to buy an iPod flash player the day they go on sale.

I hope they design it for one-hand operation. My hands are large and it is very difficult to operate the scroll wheel on the mini with one hand, especially while running. My guess (and fear) is that because the scroll wheel is such an integral part of the iPod concept/marketing, they will produce a small flash player with one, regardless of whether it makes sense from a usability/industrial design perspective.

[Windowlicker]

If it's 1gb and I can get one for say 150 euros, I'll consider getting one for my girlfriend.. I have to push her towards the Apple world ;)

[aswitcher]

1 gig for $220(AX price)-$250 Aussie...probably dreaming...maybe $300 but then the mini with 4GB is only $70 away...and unless the mini flash had new features $70 more for 4x the volume seems the wisest course...or wait until MWSF and see if theres more changes in the line...

[corywoolf]

OK Kids... one more variation of the iPod Micro.
This time the 'click wheel' becomes a 'click slider' - works similar to click wheel, you can click on the buttons or slide left to right to navigate. Holding down the "menu/play/pause" button for a second or two goes to the menu, but just doing a quick click activates "play/pause". A less radical design then my 'round' iPod mockup. :)

http://one3interactive.com/ipodmicrob.jpg


very cool...

but i think they would make the screen display vertical. kinda hard to explain. but think of how easy it would be if you had your right handed thumb just scrolling up and down with the click buttons underneath!!! i can see it already... it has in the settings menu- left handed or right handed- which would just flip the display aroundto make it easy for left handed people to read the screen. but sadly... it might just be in the ipod mini case (which is a nice case dont get me wrong) but it would be nice to see a little difference in form factor. Makes me think that apple will release the ew ipod minis and micros at the same time!!! :) so that the cases both change and it keeps consumers feel like they aren't buying a outdated product (if the buy the mini). :confused: confused yet???!!!

[corywoolf]

apple should do more special edition ipods, to promote album sales they could have ipod micro with snap on cases that display album artwork of the artist of choice (by the consumer). the cases could be sold at apple resellers and their own retail stores. Or maybe if you buy a certain amount of the artists collection at the same time they will ship a case to you? Just trying to think of inovative ways to seperate the micro from the mini! :D

[rendezvouscp]

1 gig for $220(AX price)-$250 Aussie...probably dreaming...maybe $300 but then the mini with 4GB is only $70 away...and unless the mini flash had new features $70 more for 4x the volume seems the wisest course...or wait until MWSF and see if theres more changes in the line...

But the same reasoning could've been used for the iPod mini. There's a 5x difference between the mini and the 20GB iPod. I don't think it's the space that matters, but the style and functionality (getting an even smaller iPod that's more reliable).
-Chase

[Bram]

I'm wondering: wouldn't a 256Mb flash iPod be a good idea, if you could upgrade the flash memory in the future, if you needed more space? We're used to that with computers, why not with iPods? In that case, Apple would have a nice entry-level iPod that is upgradable if you're done with its limitations...

[Macmaniac]

FlashPod is the way to go. What is so wrong with going after the other part of the market. There are still a lot of people who don't want to spend a lot of money for an MP3 player, if Apple can offer a $150 512-1gb fPod maybe with an expansion slot, then that would be awesome.

[williamsonrg]

I have the inside scoop...

In order to make the FlashPod even smaller, there will not be a traditional Li-ion battery. The FlashPod will be... solar-powered.

Of course, it won't work well in places like Seattle or the U.K., but we all know that Steve doesn't like either of those places too much anyway.

Mark my words...

[ASP272]

Personally I favor a 1GB Flash drive, especially if it's priced at $150 or below. I currently own an iRock 256mb and would love to get an iPod, but simply can't afford it. I would definitely find the cash for a 1GB iPod though. With a 24 GB music library it'll be hard to choose what music to listen though!

[jhomayne]

i'd love a cheap 256mb flash ipod.. :(

[sushi]

i'd love a cheap 256mb flash ipod.. :(
I doubt that Apple will pursue this level.

A year ago, I purchased a 256MB flash player for around $250.

Today they are about $70.

There is no margin in this market for Apple.

However, around the 512-1GB area, there is. That is where I would expect Apple to focus on.

Sushi

[rickvanr]

Personally I favor a 1GB Flash drive, especially if it's priced at $150 or below. I currently own an iRock 256mb and would love to get an iPod, but simply can't afford it. I would definitely find the cash for a 1GB iPod though. With a 24 GB music library it'll be hard to choose what music to listen though!

That is why the normal iPod is such an eyecatcher... its price vs convience.

[Some_Big_Spoon]

please just spin the ipod off into another company already so I don't have to hear about it any more when I go to Mac pages. I'm so tired of it.

Let Apple Computer make computers and let them be forced to innovate and do real advertising instead of riding this little calculator that plays music's coat tails.

I'm glad that every illiterate mtv mistake of nature has one.. really I am, but it's boring and gets in the way of focusing on Apple making computers and needing to make money off of selling computers.

Let the kiddies flame on.

[~Shard~]

Let Apple Computer make computers and let them be forced to innovate and do real advertising instead of riding this little calculator that plays music's coat tails.

Really? Computer companies should just make computers? If Apple followed your advice they might as well close up shop - throw in HP, Dell, etc. in addition... I suppose you also think telephone companies should only over telephone service as well, and not offer Internet access, e-mail services, digital TV, VoIP, etc.? I'm sure telcos could sustain themselves on LD revenue on its own. :rolleyes: As for your comment, "let them be forced to innovate" - apart from the iPod, what do you call the G5 PowerMacs, the new G5 iMacs, and OS X? Those are all very innovative engineering feats. Apple needs to innovate, yes, and along with their other products, the iPod is one of the most innovative concepts of recent years.

I'm glad that every illiterate mtv mistake of nature has one..
Ah yes, insulting iPod users using stereotypical generalities, great, thanks for displaying your maturity to the entire forum. :rolleyes:

Let the kiddies flame on.

There has been a great deal of intelligent discussion and debate in this thread, not much flaming. Or is someone who doesn't agree with you automatically flaming?

I find it ironic that you would post this, being the person who earlier posted a message in this thread containing "I don't care", copied and pasted several dozen times - a post which I reported due to its immaturity and lack of contribution to this thread - and the Mods removed it, rightfully so.

If you're trying to cause trouble or rile people up, please go elsewhere, that behavior isn't welcome here at MacRumors. You are of course entitled to speak your opinions, but there is no need to user such an overtly negative tone coupled with insults. :cool:

[beatle888]

please just spin the ipod off into another company already so I don't have to hear about it any more when I go to Mac pages. I'm so tired of it.

Let Apple Computer make computers and let them be forced to innovate and do real advertising instead of riding this little calculator that plays music's coat tails.

I'm glad that every illiterate mtv mistake of nature has one.. really I am, but it's boring and gets in the way of focusing on Apple making computers and needing to make money off of selling computers.

Let the kiddies flame on.


apple actually made the ipod for a specific purpose and it isnt only for playing music. its an innovative business strategy to bring their inventions and vision to people who need to be led to water...and apparently their drinking. theres more to the picture then what you seem to be aware of. i know we hear a lot about the pod but theres no reason to get upset over it. its a good thing...no harm or ill will right? :)

[sushi]

<big snip>

If you're trying to cause trouble or rile people up, please go elsewhere, that behavior isn't welcome here at MacRumors. You are of course entitled to speak your opinions, but there is no need to user such an overtly negative tone coupled with insults.
Mr. ~Shard~,

Thank you for your well written response.

It's nice to have a civil conversation about future possibilties without interferance from others who would like to derail the discussion.

Domo Domo! :)

Sushi

[jhomayne]

I doubt that Apple will pursue this level.

A year ago, I purchased a 256MB flash player for around $250.

Today they are about $70.

There is no margin in this market for Apple.

However, around the 512-1GB area, there is. That is where I would expect Apple to focus on.

Sushi
well 512 would be alright..

my ideal situation:

-make a 50-100 song playlist in itunes
-export it to my ipod micro
-listen to it that day/journey/whatever
-get back
-make another playlist for the next time.

:)

[themacman]

Can we exspect this at the expo in London? What else would be reaslease

[Blue Velvet]

Can we exspect this at the expo in London? What else would be reaslease

Nope.

It's a trade show with an Apple stand and a whole bunch of third-party people... like Adobe, Quark, Belkin, etc.

It's taking place only a 10 min walk from where I'm writing this and seems to be conveniently timed for the opening of the new Apple Store in Regent Street on Saturday.

I was going to go till I found out they were charging £10 to get in.

[GonzoRob]

Can we exspect this at the expo in London? What else would be reaslease

honestly, i dont think we are going to see much new stuff at the expo in London - im still waiting for the new powerbook , but i have accepted the fact that it wont be until Jan ...
(on a side note) on macnn.com forums there was a guy claiming he saw the powerbook - said it was up to 2ghz , and made out of carbon fibre with "red LED look" (knightrider anyone?). If black carbon fibre is the new apple motif then perhaps new ipod's etc will change from white to black

its just an idea
as for london (back on topic :) ) i think we might see a pricedrop for the older products ...
Rob

PS: Some_Big_Spoon; if you hate a product so much , why enter into a forum discussion on it? no one likes angst ...

[9hundred]

Why doesn't apple hold a design competition?

I think I am better than Johnathon Ives.

[iProbot]

Why doesn't apple hold a design competition?

I think I am better than Johnathon Ives.

Prove it!!! ;)

[zelmo]

When Apple unveils the iPod micro mini (or whatever they call it), I expect to see the mini go to at least 6GB, if not 8GB. That would close what has become a rather large hole in the product offerings between a 4GB mini and the minimum iPod at 20GB. So:

iPod photo - 60GB, $599
iPod photo - 40GB, $499

iPod - 40GB, $399
iPod - 20GB, $299

iPod mini - 6 or 8GB, $249
iPod micro mini - 1 or 2GB, $179

What I'd be more excited to see is Apple and Moto getting together to release the iPhone - a slider phone that is a 1 or 2GB iPod when closed, and a phone when open.

[~Shard~]

Mr. ~Shard~,

Thank you for your well written response.

It's nice to have a civil conversation about future possibilties without interferance from others who would like to derail the discussion.

Domo Domo! :)

Sushi

Thanks Sushi, I appreciate it. As for Some_Big_Spoon, his profile indicates he's already been back on MacRumors since I posted my reply, but obviously he hasn't got around to replying yet, I'm curious to hear his rebuttal. ;)

[~Shard~]

Why doesn't apple hold a design competition?

I think I am better than Johnathon Ives.

Time to put your Photoshop skills where your mouth is! ;) :cool:

[~Shard~]

What I'd be more excited to see is Apple and Moto getting together to release the iPhone - a slider phone that is a 1 or 2GB iPod when closed, and a phone when open.

Might as well make it a PDA as well! :eek: ;)

[zelmo]

Might as well make it a PDA as well! :eek: ;)

Hey Steve!!! If you build it, they will buy.

I'd love for Apple to release a phone/PDA/MP3 player. If there's one company who might actually make this never-done-right convergence work...

[artifex]

Yes, this can be considered a good thing for us, we get to have the cool new Apple gear at lower prices, but if everyone else has it too then the desirability decreases. Would you value your iPod/iMac/Powerbook etc as much if it cost half as much?


Considering the reason why I don't own any Apple gear besides an iPod (which just left Subic Bay Freeport PH) is because it's all too expensive for me, the answer is yes. I'd value something I wouldn't have been able to have otherwise.

You have to understand, there's a lot more market share ready for the taking, if only Apple would decrease the Apple tax. People are so fed up in general here in the world of PCs, and a lot of *nix guys agree that Apple makes good hardware and now the OS is mostly up to it, it's just that the Apple tax is another barrier.

The easiest way to move in would be through the laptop market first, since PC users are already used to all in one devices with limited upgradeability. The answer isn't to reduce the feature set to offer cheaper notebooks that don't cannibalize sales of the expensive ones, like they're doing now. The answer is to reduce the price of the best notebooks, because the flood of demand will make up for the lack of margin on individual units. Besides, hardware sales mean a lockin on software, and Apple ought to really be banking on that software.

[one3]

Time to put your Photoshop skills where your mouth is! ;) :cool:

I agree! Also it's one thing to "Photoshop" something and another to actually do a product design. Industrial design is a whole lot different then just playing around in photoshop. You have to really know about the materials you are using, their interaction with items around them, 3D modelling, fabrication and so much more outside of just 'design'. The iPod Micro mockups I posted earlier were done in Photoshop. Those are FAR away from what's actually involved in making the product a reality. So Jonathan Ives has nothing to worry about from me or many of the other 'wannabes' ... so let's be honest with ourselves about what we can and CAN'T do people! :)

[beatle888]

im sure Jonathan Ives doesnt do all the grunt work of making the illustrations in its most polished form. he most likely does something very close to what you did and lets others put all the polish on the comps. he doesnt need to be bothered with all the details of the 3D render...im sure its understood that if he says "its made of the same metal as the mini"...the 3D artist would be expected to know what he means and how to illustrate the effect.

at least thats how things work in other creative production workflows. you have the creative director work a rough of his/her concept and he hands it down to the artists to render the vision.

i think the comp you did (if your the guy who did the square illustration) would be very similiar to what Jonathan Ives would hand off. matter of fact...most creative directors i work with still like to use marker comps. its the idea behind it that matters...not who makes a 3D model of the concept....just like halo...the artist conceptualizes the idea and others turn it into a 3D model.

[~Shard~]

Hey Steve!!! If you build it, they will buy.

I'd love for Apple to release a phone/PDA/MP3 player. If there's one company who might actually make this never-done-right convergence work...

That's very true - if someone's gonna do it right, it's probably going to be Apple.

And yes, if Apple builds it, people do seem to buy it - regardless of what it is and what its price is! Just look at products like the iPod mini, and how people questioned its capacity and hefty price tag - next thing you know, they're sold out for months...

I'd buy an Apple iPod phone... :cool:

[one3]

i think the comp you did (if your the guy who did the square illustration) would be very similiar to what Jonathan Ives would hand off. matter of fact...most creative directors i work with still like to use marker comps. its the idea behind it that matters...not who makes a 3D model of the concept....just like halo...the artist conceptualizes the idea and others turn it into a 3D model.

While I agree with you that Jonathan Ives doesn't sit there and make the 3D models himself, he still has to have a very firm understanding of the process, as well as the properties and details of the materials he uses (aluminum, plastics, etc, etc.. ) and all the other aspects involved in product design. Using myself as an example, I can sit here all day and mock up Apple products in Photoshop (http://www.applepete.com) but there is no way I would know what to do to make it real. I know nothing about using lucite with aluminum :) . It's not that I'm trying to put down us "Photoshoppers" .... it's more that I'm giving credit to industrial designers - that it is a unique discipline with it's own skillset.

[zelmo]

That's very true - if someone's gonna do it right, it's probably going to be Apple.

And yes, if Apple builds it, people do seem to buy it - regardless of what it is and what its price is! Just look at products like the iPod mini, and how people questioned its capacity and hefty price tag - next thing you know, they're sold out for months...

I'd buy an Apple iPod phone... :cool:

The new iPhone, with Palm OS 5.2 and a 2GB iPod mini built-in.
Starting at $799.
:eek: :eek:

[aswitcher]

The new iPhone, with Palm OS 5.2 and a 2GB iPod mini built-in.
Starting at $799.
:eek: :eek:

Price might be bit high but the stats are exactly what I am after...maybe a 4gig microdrive...

I would also expect it to work fully with iLife...

[~Shard~]

The new iPhone, with Palm OS 5.2 and a 2GB iPod mini built-in.
Starting at $799.
:eek: :eek:

Sounds like a winner. Except screw Palm OS, and bring on a compact version of OS X! Let's see, what could you call a smaller version of Panther or Tiger... How about OS X "Cub"? ;) :rolleyes: :cool:

[MacinDoc]

Hey Steve!!! If you build it, they will buy.

I'd love for Apple to release a phone/PDA/MP3 player. If there's one company who might actually make this never-done-right convergence work...
Since Apple announced its cooperation with Motorola to make an iTunes-compatible cell phone, do you think that such a device would be produced by a joint venture (gasp!) between Apple and Motorola?
:eek:

Flame away!

[Mechcozmo]

How about something the size of an iPod Mini, with 1GB of built in and then a CF slot for upgradability? And use software to lock it down to only a 8GB max upgrade...

[sushi]

How about something the size of an iPod Mini, with 1GB of built in and then a CF slot for upgradability? And use software to lock it down to only a 8GB max upgrade...
I understand where you are coming from. Many current MP3 players have a memory expansion slot.

However, with regards to Apple, I just don't see them going with this approach. They like the closed design concept too much.

Now while this may seem to be a limitation, it is also an advantage. A closed system can be designed to be smaller and stronger while being lighter. This is key with a flash based player. The ones over here that have removeable/replaceable batteries are much more flimsy than the all in one designs. I would think that this is a good thing for most folks needs since flash based players tend to be used more roughly than the HD based ones.

Anyhow, my .03!

Sushi

[Chappers]

They had this link on maccentral
http://www.macworld.com/news/2004/11/15/freecom/index.php

I think we are looking at the possible size of a uPod (the 'u' was my sad attempt at a micro symbol)
No idea where they'll put the battery - I'll leave that task to Apple.

[zelmo]

Price might be bit high but the stats are exactly what I am after...maybe a 4gig microdrive...

I would also expect it to work fully with iLife...

Yes, that price seems high, and I was certainly being "mildly" sarcastic, but a decent PDA runs anywhere from $200 to $400, a good cell phone costs from $100 to $300, and the alleged iPod micro mini will sell for $200 at 1GB. That's a range of anywhere from $500 to $900 for all three devices. How much is it worth to someone to have all three features in one device that does them all well enough? And how much premium can Apple afford to charge for their elegant and functional design?

[zelmo]

Since Apple announced its cooperation with Motorola to make an iTunes-compatible cell phone, do you think that such a device would be produced by a joint venture (gasp!) between Apple and Motorola?
:eek:

Flame away!

Ummm, look at post #209 in this very same thread. :rolleyes:

[timmyOtool]

Personally, I use my 20 gig mostly in my car and on my home stereo. I tried using it when I work out but it just doesn't work well. It is just too big and fragile. I would buy a flash based one in a heartbeat just for working out.

[sushi]

They had this link on maccentral
http://www.macworld.com/news/2004/11/15/freecom/index.php

I think we are looking at the possible size of a uPod (the 'u' was my sad attempt at a micro symbol)
No idea where they'll put the battery - I'll leave that task to Apple.
As I mentioned earlier, I see one possible option as being the mini iPod in height and width, but having a very thin thickness.

Similar to a PC card if you will like you show.

The nice thing about a thin version, is that it will fit in a suit/shirt pocket very nicely. Also will be light enough to hang from a neck strap.

The flash player that I have, all the memory is mounted to the motherboard. It is about the thickness of 1.5 times a stick of gum. The battery is about the same. Add the interface and you get the pack of gum shape.

With a credit card sized device, there is much more real estate from which to place the chips. I can see a device the size of a credit card but about 2-3 sticks of gum in thickness.

Here's to hoping we see it in January.

Sushi

[Chappers]

I guess the only thing we all know about this (apart from it's coming I hope) is that when it comes, lots of people will want one cus it will look so good.

[zelmo]

[QUOTE=Chappers]I guess the only thing we all know about this (apart from it's coming I hope) is that when it comes, lots of people will want one cus it will look so good.[/QUOTE


No, we know a lot more than that...

• We can also easily and accurately predict that many people will call it simultaneously too expensive and lacking in storage capacity.
• We will complain about the form factor, and also about the color choice(s).
• Naturally, battery life will get bashed, too.
• Of course, there are those who, despite it being the low-cost entry into Apple digital music players, will also complain that it doesn't have a 7" color screen, video out, and pda functionality.
• Why isn't this a phone and an iTunes remote for my Airport Express network?
• Given that this type of device is great for workouts, bike rides, runs and such, some people will wish it could track how many calories you are burning and what mileage you cover, too. C'mon Apple, why can't it measure your heart rate???
• What, no bluetooth headphones? What is Apple doing??
• And let's not forget the ever popular general standby "Why does Apple always seem to miss the boat on new products?" whine-fest.

Can't wait :D

[billyboy]

It amazes me how many people seem to use a music player on a bike. How dangerous is that? The iPod micro flash sport will have to come with a big sticker, "Hey, cyclists, this iPod could easily kill you." :eek:

[sushi]

I guess the only thing we all know about this (apart from it's coming I hope) is that when it comes, lots of people will want one cus it will look so good.


No, we know a lot more than that...

• We can also easily and accurately predict that many people will call it simultaneously too expensive and lacking in storage capacity.
• We will complain about the form factor, and also about the color choice(s).
• Naturally, battery life will get bashed, too.
• Of course, there are those who, despite it being the low-cost entry into Apple digital music players, will also complain that it doesn't have a 7" color screen, video out, and pda functionality.
• Why isn't this a phone and an iTunes remote for my Airport Express network?
• Given that this type of device is great for workouts, bike rides, runs and such, some people will wish it could track how many calories you are burning and what mileage you cover, too. C'mon Apple, why can't it measure your heart rate???
• What, no bluetooth headphones? What is Apple doing??
• And let's not forget the ever popular general standby "Why does Apple always seem to miss the boat on new products?" whine-fest.

Can't wait :D
Spitting milk through my nostrils!

Damn that was funny! :D

Sushi

[Bonnie]

So do you guys really think that Apple is going to release something like this? If so, when?

I would definitely buy one. Mostly because I hardly use my 3gen iPod anymore. My main use for a portable music player is at the gym or when running. The iPod is simply too cumbersome and heavy for me to worry about. Much like someone said in an earler post, I was probably the chick at the gym who was chained to the iPod brick. :rolleyes:

A 2 or 4gb smaller, lighter ipod would be great for me. I'd probably still keep my 3rd gen, but I know that the smaller one would get a lot more use.

I've considered getting a mini, but feel like they are not worth it due to their problems, battery life, ugly colors, etc. We'll see.

[Zigster]

If it sells for $99.00, I'm there.

Don't see the point of 400 dollar ipods, frankly.

[~Shard~]

Don't see the point of 400 dollar ipods, frankly.

Why not? Is this really unreasonable? How do you feel about $4000 displays then? ;)

[sushi]

Don't see the point of 400 dollar ipods, frankly.

Why not? Is this really unreasonable? How do you feel about $4000 displays then? ;)
Maybe a decision that is 10 times harder! :eek: :D

Sushi

[~Shard~]

Maybe a decision that is 10 times harder! :eek: :D

Sushi

But relative, for what you get.... ;)

[MacSA]

Has this already been posted?

http://www.macosxrumors.com/articles/2004/11/18/sources-confirm-flash-based-rumor-but-also-claim-cheaper-ipod-mini/

From MacOSXrumors

Recent rumours expect Apple to release an entry level iPod based on Flash memory late this year. Sources not only confirm a possible release of an iPod based on Flash-memory, some of them also claim Apple will also have a hard drive based iPod mini priced $199 in its line of MP3 players.

The flash based iPod rumour seems to be more and more confirmed, though details on these new iPod and their storage capacity remain very unclear. Unconfirmed reports suggest that Apple will release a flash-based iPod with 1Gb capacity that could be priced from $149 to $200.

As for the current iPod mini, some sources expect Apple to reduce it’s price to $199. Storage capacity of the down-priced iPod mini has not been revealed, but some data, that we cannot publish, suggests that the current 4Gb iPod mini will be priced $199 and that a higher capacity 6Gb iPod mini will be priced as the current one, $249.

[sushi]

The flash based iPod rumour seems to be more and more confirmed, though details on these new iPod and their storage capacity remain very unclear. Unconfirmed reports suggest that Apple will release a flash-based iPod with 1Gb capacity that could be priced from $149 to $200.

As for the current iPod mini, some sources expect Apple to reduce it’s price to $199. Storage capacity of the down-priced iPod mini has not been revealed, but some data, that we cannot publish, suggests that the current 4Gb iPod mini will be priced $199 and that a higher capacity 6Gb iPod mini will be priced as the current one, $249.[/I]
One thing for sure, with flash memory prices dropping so quickly, it will be very interesting to see:

1. If Apple does enter this market.

2. At what price range.

Already we are at the $200 mark for 1GB versions. I would expect 2GB within the year being at this level.

I sure hope that the rumor is right. Looking forward to a flash based player that will integrate with iTunes.

Sushi

[aswitcher]

Tuesday soon... ;) :rolleyes:

[sushi]

Tuesday soon... ;) :rolleyes:
Yep, next Tuesday for sure. :eek: :D

Sushi

[zelmo]

Yep, next Tuesday for sure. :eek: :D

Sushi

Can you imagine how much of the flash player market Apple could grab if they actually had a $149 1GB flash iPod micro available for purchase before Black Friday? It wouldn't hardly cut into iPod mini sales at all if they also upped the mini to 6GB or 8GB at $249. Oh well, they will make nice graduation gifts next Spring.

[sushi]

Can you imagine how much of the flash player market Apple could grab if they actually had a $149 1GB flash iPod micro available for purchase before Black Friday? It wouldn't hardly cut into iPod mini sales at all if they also upped the mini to 6GB or 8GB at $249. Oh well, they will make nice graduation gifts next Spring.
At $149 they would fly off the shelves over here.

Even at $200 they would sell like hotcakes.

Flash players are hot over here. So many models and options. Most never make it to the states unfortunately.

Today, I finally got the chance to test a 1GB one (23,000 yen or about $220 depending on the yen rate) that I'm contemplating purchasing. Well, I couldn't make sense out of the interface. In a word, it sucked.

This is where I see Apple heads and shoulders above the others. Total usage and integration with iTunes.

Please Apple, let's do it. One awesome 1 or 2GB flash based player to go!

Sushi

[aswitcher]

Can you imagine how much of the flash player market Apple could grab if they actually had a $149 1GB flash iPod micro available for purchase before Black Friday? It wouldn't hardly cut into iPod mini sales at all if they also upped the mini to 6GB or 8GB at $249. Oh well, they will make nice graduation gifts next Spring.

It would be "perfect" :D

[StarbucksSam]

Guys, this is going to sound REALLY ignorant, but could someone explain to me what the difference between a flash player and a hard drive is?

[Giantred]

Guys, this is going to sound REALLY ignorant, but could someone explain to me what the difference between a flash player and a hard drive is?

Ummmm.....

A flash player uses flash memory. Flash memory cards are about the size of a postage stamp, and have about 64mb-1gb of storage. Unlike hard drives they have no moving parts.


A hardrive player like the iPod (white) uses a spin-up hard drive, like that in your computer.

Corey

P.S. That was so IGNORANT!!!! :eek: jk

[Doctor Q]

Guys, this is going to sound REALLY ignorant, but could someone explain to me what the difference between a flash player and a hard drive is?A flash player uses flash memory, which is solid state (no moving parts), like the RAM in your computer or the little memory device (memory stick, compact flash card, etc.) in a digital camera. A hard drive player like the iPod uses a tiny disk drive, like the hard disk in your computer. This thread is about the rumored introduction of Apple's first iPod based on flash memory.

[arnette]

So do you guys really think that Apple is going to release something like this? If so, when?


I'm so glad you have an interest in the flash ipod because I was going to recommend you look into it if you sell your 3rd gen. But we never get to talk! :(

Nonetheless, perfect for the gym, running, etc. I had an iRiver flash drive that was 128MB and it worked great. The only problem was that it only held about 25 songs. A 512 or 1GB would be the best thing. Let's hope!

Take care

[iMurc]

Oh boy now us people with less money then other can afford one :D ... It would really wipe the PC MP3 Players off the marked and give Apple a Market Share like no other, and Apple will own music :cool: :rolleyes: ... Well, I know I would buy one... To bad its after xmas and it would miss out on those sales... But, I think is a great start to a new type of iPod.