Raid card for Crucial RealSSD C300

[banosr]

I want to use in raid 0, two Crucial RealSSD C300 SATA 6GB interface (is supposed to reach read speeds of 355 MB/S).

Please recommend a card to use and what kit to use to install in optical bay.

Thanks for the help

[WardC]

You could just software RAID them using Apple Disk Utility and you would be just fine.

[Torster]

You could look at these:

http://www.highpoint-tech.com/USA_new/series_rr600.htm

Torrey

[strausd]

As for putting them in the optical bay, nanofrog recommended this (http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?category=2791) to me. At the bottom you can pick 2 2.5" drives instead of 2 3.5".

[CaptainChunk]

If it's only two drives you're running in a RAID-0 stripe, there's very little point in a dedicated hardware RAID card, IMHO. They will offer advantages like caching and in a lot of cases, a backup battery, but I don't think that in a two-drive system that the slight performance increase would justify a $500+ cost for a good card.

Personally, I would run software RAID-0 in Mac OS until your needs expand to multiple drives in a RAID.

But with that said, nanofrog is the resident RAID expert around here and might have additional advice. And like strausd mentioned, the Trans International drive sled kits work pretty well.

[banosr]

My idea is to expand the system to 6 drives in the future, as you may have imagined I am a complete nuby in raid and I wouldn't want to spend money and don't get the performance I could. I also have a 4 TB lacie drive attached via FW 800 in Raid 5 for backup via time machine. I know this system is to much for me but having a lot of speed has landed me many sales in demos I have done.

Thanks for all the ideas

[mluters]

Banosr, I have a 2009 quad 2.66 mac pro using 2 C300 256gb in a software RAID 0 and have them using the 2 Sata ports for the optical dirves. I've had no problems with this setup and AJA and Xbench show 550/400 mbs read/write. I have thought of trying a dedicated RAID card but haven't researched it yet. My internal Blu ray/DVD drive is then connected to a internal Sata card. Hope this helps.

[VirtualRain]

Anand is not recommending these drives for use in Macs which lack Trim support...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3812/the-ssd-diaries-crucials-realssd-c300/9

[cvelezv]

For the kit on the optical bay, you could use the Addonics Disk array which fits nicely on the second bay.

This array handles up to 4 2.5 drives (SSD) with SATA & SAS interfaces with a single power connection and has 2 SATA/SAS data connections for each of the 4 drives, it also has 2 fans to cool the whole setup.

I'm using this kit to house a WD velociraptor (boot drive) and a single Crucial SSD which brings us to the 6GB/s card...

The Hightpoint 600 (internal SATA) is NOT supported in Mac OS/X, I already contacted Hightpoint and they are not providing drivers for this card, only for the ESATA ones, so.. we'll have to look for another card or use a 3GB/s controller.. I'm waiting to see what happens before I buy the 2nd SSD or another controller card

[banosr]

Has anyone tried ExpressSAS H608 from Atto

[cvelezv]

Has anyone tried ExpressSAS H608 from Atto

You'll problably need the ExpressSAS R644 or R608 models that are SATA/SAS RAID controllers

[nanofrog]

I want to use in raid 0, two Crucial RealSSD C300 SATA 6GB interface (is supposed to reach read speeds of 355 MB/S).

Please recommend a card to use and what kit to use to install in optical bay.

Thanks for the help
You can use this (http://www.xpcgear.com/scythe-2-5-to-5-25-bay-rafter.html) as an inexpensive SSD mount for the optical bay.

As per a card capable of 6.0Gb/s, the RocketRAID 620 will work without the need for drivers as I understand it (just as Newertech's 6.0GB/s eSATA cards do), but please understand it CANNOT boot OS X.

Beyond that, others are all eSATA models (you could still route cables back through an open PCI bracket, but it's not pretty, or possible if you've all the slots filled).

The next step, is a hardware RAID card, not a SATA controller (which is what's been linked so far, though true RAID cards have been mentioned = ATTO products as the only 6.0Gb/s RAID cards avaiable right now).

BTW, don't ever try to place MLC based SSD's in a parity array, as they're not up to the write cycle frequency.

Has anyone tried ExpressSAS H608 from Atto
I haven't tried the newer 6.0Gb/s cards, but their 3.0Gb/s products are amongst the best available, and ATTO's not the type of company to really screw up their hard earned reputation IMO.

My other favorite (better configuration flexibility and lower cost), is Areca. Unfortunately, they don't have any 6.0Gb/s RAID products available right now.

[banosr]

I finally decided on a Setup, I just want to know if it will work. Keep in mind this is a Demo machine to film editing professionals so performance is much more important than price.

- 4 Crucial RealSSD C300 in slot 2 with Trans int DX4 in Raid 0 for boot and apps.
- 6 Momentus XT Hybrid 500 GB, 2 in optical bay with pro caddy 2 and 4 in the 4 regular slots with pro sled. in Raid 0
- ATTO ExpressSAS R60F
- Backup with LaCie 4big Quadra via FW800 in Raid 5

Please let me know first, if this would work and second if there is a better setup for performance, I didn't go for 15k drives because of the noise.

I really appreciate all the help you have been giving me.

[nanofrog]

I finally decided on a Setup, I just want to know if it will work. Keep in mind this is a Demo machine to film editing professionals so performance is much more important than price.

- 4 Crucial RealSSD C300 in slot 2 with Trans int DX4 in Raid 0 for boot and apps.
- 6 Momentus XT Hybrid 500 GB, 2 in optical bay with pro caddy 2 and 4 in the 4 regular slots with pro sled. in Raid 0
- ATTO ExpressSAS R60F
- Backup with LaCie 4big Quadra via FW800 in Raid 5

Please let me know first, if this would work and second if there is a better setup for performance, I didn't go for 15k drives because of the noise.

I really appreciate all the help you have been giving me.
Maybe.


What system do you actually have (2006 - 2009)?
What controller do you plan to attach the 2x disks in the optical bay and 4x HDD bays to?


Both of these have bearing on performance, as if the 6x disks are attached to the system controller, you need to make sure they're within 660MB/s (or less). The Momentus can exceed that @ n = 6, as in a stripe set, the throughput is single disk performance * n. So if a disk can produce more than 110MB/s sustained transfers (read or write), then you'd throttle on that set. According to Tom's Hardware, the Momentus is right near the limit (108.6MB/s sustained write, and 85.1MB/s sustained reads). For that, you may as well stick to mechanical IMO (presuming you mean for this set to be used as scratch or similar).

If this is for primary data, then you may want to consider running mechanical in RAID 5 (on the ATTO), as it's safer, and will be sufficiently fast enough for video/graphics work (more than sufficient actually, even as you hit the inner tracks on the platters).

If it's attached to the RAID card (which I presume is the intent ATM), then the system's actual model # will matter, as you have to get the drives attached to the card. The '06 - '08 models are easier, as you unplug the drive bay cable (aka MiniSAS = SFF-8087 connector) from the logic board to the RAID card, and use a fanout cable from the optical bay drives to the card as well. This may mean having to use an extension cable, but it works, and is cheaper than what's needed in the 2009 systems (different tray kit from MaxUpgrades). I can link this if this is your system, but hesitate ATM to avoid confusion. ;)

In the '09 systems, you need an adapter, as the disks connect directly to the board. The adapter allows the drives to ride forward of those connectors, and allows for a fanout cable to be used (kit has power wiring as well).

Your backup system could work, though I'm not a fan of ready made NAS units like that (particularly for RAID 5), as it's not a wonderful unit for RAID 5 (no NVRAM solution as is on the RAID card you intend to use).

BTW, even though you're using the RAID card, you also need to run a proper UPS for it to do it's job properly (Online type is the best choice). ATTO doesn't offer card batteries, so the UPS is all that you can do (ideally, you should run both, but so long as there's sufficient battery time, a UPS alone is sufficient, and overall, a better solution in a single source backup power implementation).

[banosr]

Thanks for the help Nanofrog, It's a 2009 and due to availability issues in Mexico I have to change the setup. What I am considering now is:

- ATTO Technology ExpressSAS R608 8-Port Internal 6Gb/s SAS SATA RAID Controller
- 4 Crucial RealSSD C300 in slot 2 with Trans int DX4 in Raid 0 for boot and apps. (Connected to the Atto) (Boot and apps)
- 4 600 GB WD Velociraptor 10K 6Gb/s in Raid 0 (Connected to the Atto)
- 2 WD Caviar Black 2TB in optical drive in software Raid 0 for Backup (Connected to ? please advise if its possible to connect to the system controller)
- I also have a 16TB NAS in Raid 5 which I could use for backup of the Backup drives.

Which kits do I need to make this connections? regular slots to ATTO and optical drive to system or another host adaptor.

Thanks for everything

[frimple]

Anand is not recommending these drives for use in Macs which lack Trim support...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3812/the-ssd-diaries-crucials-realssd-c300/9

Can't use TRIM on a RAID set anyways :mad:

[nanofrog]

Thanks for the help Nanofrog, It's a 2009 and due to availability issues in Mexico I have to change the setup. What I am considering now is:

- ATTO Technology ExpressSAS R608 8-Port Internal 6Gb/s SAS SATA RAID Controller
- 4 Crucial RealSSD C300 in slot 2 with Trans int DX4 in Raid 0 for boot and apps. (Connected to the Atto) (Boot and apps)
- 4 600 GB WD Velociraptor 10K 6Gb/s in Raid 0 (Connected to the Atto)
- 2 WD Caviar Black 2TB in optical drive in software Raid 0 for Backup (Connected to ? please advise if its possible to connect to the system controller)
- I also have a 16TB NAS in Raid 5 which I could use for backup of the Backup drives.

Which kits do I need to make this connections? regular slots to ATTO and optical drive to system or another host adapter.

Thanks for everything
The adapter needed to make the HDD bays work with the card is here (http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=189%20).

As per the ATTO controller, I'd call or email and make sure EFI firmware is either loaded or available (no information for sure on the EFI in the datasheet, though their other RAID products do, such as the R3xx series; driver support = Yes). You would also want to ask if it comes with any fanout cables (been awhile since I opened up an ATTO, so they may or may not - one of the reasons I like Areca, as they do include 1x cable per port on the card).

Worst case, you can get the fanout here (http://www.pc-pitstop.com/sas_cables_adapters/F87H7D.asp) (needed for the drives in the optical bay).

Any specific need for the Velociraptors?
They are fast, and more importantly, enterprise grade, but I'm just wondering... They'll work, but so would 4x enterprise grade 7200 rpm disks as well for the usage described. (You need to run enterprise grade disks on the ATTO, due to how recovery is handled). The timings in the firmware are different, as well as the ratings, and inclusion of additional sensors (helps increase the reliability by preventing crashes - heads smacking the platters in a high vibration scenario for example).

The only way to get both Caviar Blacks on the ICH is to remove the optical drive, and connect one cable (in the system) to each drive.

Your other choice is to go with an enterprise grade drive (i.e. Western Digital REx, x = number, such as RE4 2TB <7200 rpm units, not the RE4-GP, which are slower; ~5900rpm or so it seems>). So far, there's no HDD Compatibility List published, but you should do fine with WD enterprise mechanical (they usually do work). Connect them to the ATTO via the fanout cable.

That card won't have any problems with multiple arrays running (your configuration won't push the bandwidth past it's limits).

Use a good UPS (Online type) with both the system (includes monitor) and the NAS. Once it's on the UPS, the NAS should suffice for a backup solution (covers you on the write hole, as I have to presume it doesn't have an NVRAM solution at all, so the UPS is even more critical). So try to get a unit large enough to handle both (may require you to hire in an electrician to install the correct circuit to power it). Another option is to use 2x units (may be cheaper, you'll have to price locally). You can also get such units as refurbished/reconditioned as well to save a few $$ (just research the exact model # to be sure it's an Online unit, not a Line Interactive = switched if you go this route).

Think this covers it. :p

[VirtualRain]

Banosr... this is one hell of a setup... make sure you report back on your experience and some test results! :D

[huscat]

Get either the Muskin SandForce or OCZ Vertex 2 or Larry's OWC Sandforce drives. We have done extensive testing on the C300 and the Sandforce drives on several RAID cards, including the RocketRaid2720 which we like the best and it smokes the Crucial C300's in head to head testing.

[banosr]

Thanks to everyone for your help, I will be reporting in about 3 weeks (It's not easy to get everything quickly in Mexico) and I'll give my final setup and test results.

[cvelezv]

Thanks to everyone for your help, I will be reporting in about 3 weeks (It's not easy to get everything quickly in Mexico) and I'll give my final setup and test results.

Not to hijack your thread, but can you tell me where to get the ATTO Technology ExpressSAS R608 in Mexico?, as I told you I have a similar setup: 2 Crucial CS300 SSDs in the 2nd optical bay and thinking about this card. Thank you

[banosr]

scsi4me.com ships to mexico, but they told me the will be getting the card next week. They only accept wire transfer or western union

[nanofrog]

scsi4me.com ships to mexico, but they told me the will be getting the card next week. They only accept wire transfer or western union
At least they have a page on the R608 (and a price on it). Most others only have the H608 up (non RAID version).

[banosr]

Setup

Mac Pro
Quad-Core Intel Xeon 2.26 GHz
Memory 16 GB
Mac OSX 10.6.4


- 4 Crucial Real SSD 300 (Boot Drive and Aps) in Transintl DX4
- 4 10k Velociraptors (Scratch) connected to MaxConnect SAS/SATA BackPlane Attachment for Mac Pro [2009] Attaching the backplate to the DX4 was tricky (Involved a visit to the blacksmith).
- 2 WD Caviar Black 2TB (Backup 1) in Transint Pro Caddy 2 in optical bay.
- 1 x ATTO Technology ExpressSAS R608 8-Port Internal 6Gb/s SAS SATA RAID Controller.
- LaCie 12big Rack Fibre via NAS as Backup in Raid 5 connected to a Xserve


The 4 Crucial and the 4 Velociraptors connected to the Atto (2 striped sets), the 2 Caviar (Software Striped) connected to sata out ports of the bacplane in bays 1 and 2.

Please let me know what benchs you would like and what programs to use.

I still have not been able to boot from the Atto card, even tough in the Atto configuration I have boot enabled. I hope to fix this soon since I am booting from my past HD connected to the DVD Cable.

[Transporteur]

Please let me know what benchs you would like and what programs to use.


I'd like to see some sustained transfer benches of you boot and scratch arrays, preferably with the AJA system test (http://www.aja.com/products/software/).

That is indeed quite a setup you've got there. Would be even better if you could provide some pics. :D

[nanofrog]

I'd like to see some sustained transfer benches of you boot and scratch arrays, preferably with the AJA system test (http://www.aja.com/products/software/).

That is indeed quite a setup you've got there. Would be even better if you could provide some pics. :D
x2 :D

[deconstruct60]

BTW, don't ever try to place MLC based SSD's in a parity array, as they're not up to the write cycle frequency.
.

This doesn't make sense. A parity arrays does not increase number of writes to an individual disk. Sure you have to write two (or three) pieces of data but you'd had to do that if making duplicates anyway. It is rather hard to make duplicates without writing more than once.

If the write cycle frequency is too high for a single disk then parity (or full duplication ) don't make it any better worse.

Marginally has some impact if the RAID controller uses just one drive for parity. ( not sure why would want to do that since localizing the writes onto a single disk and hence a single queue. ). In that case the workload is not being distributed, but is it still no more than if had a single disk and no RAID.
However, in a distributed parity set up similar benifits that RAID-0 has in distributing the writes across devices is present ( just over a smaller subset of the disks. Some disk(s) are being left out of each write. Just not as low a number, but also higher reliability... so doesn't come for free. )


A hard disk will "wear out" over time just like a MLC disk will. Perhaps different specific failure modes but they both wear. Need to be aware of the write cycle limitations but that's conditional upon the workload. A mainstream 70/30 read/write ratio is likely OK. RAID with parity doesn't defacto mean the read/write ratio is 50/50 or 40/60 .

[dholaday]

The next step, is a hardware RAID card, not a SATA controller (which is what's been linked so far, though true RAID cards have been mentioned = ATTO products as the only 6.0Gb/s RAID cards avaiable right now).



My other favorite (better configuration flexibility and lower cost), is Areca. Unfortunately, they don't have any 6.0Gb/s RAID products available right now.

nanofrog. Areca has a new card series that supports 6.0Gb/s

http://www.areca.us/products/1880.htm

doc

[nanofrog]

This doesn't make sense. A parity arrays does not increase number of writes to an individual disk. Sure you have to write two (or three) pieces of data but you'd had to do that if making duplicates anyway. It is rather hard to make duplicates without writing more than once.

If the write cycle frequency is too high for a single disk then parity (or full duplication ) don't make it any better worse.

Marginally has some impact if the RAID controller uses just one drive for parity. ( not sure why would want to do that since localizing the writes onto a single disk and hence a single queue. ). In that case the workload is not being distributed, but is it still no more than if had a single disk and no RAID.
However, in a distributed parity set up similar benifits that RAID-0 has in distributing the writes across devices is present ( just over a smaller subset of the disks. Some disk(s) are being left out of each write. Just not as low a number, but also higher reliability... so doesn't come for free. )


A hard disk will "wear out" over time just like a MLC disk will. Perhaps different specific failure modes but they both wear. Need to be aware of the write cycle limitations but that's conditional upon the workload. A mainstream 70/30 read/write ratio is likely OK. RAID with parity doesn't defacto mean the read/write ratio is 50/50 or 40/60 .
We've crossed this bridge before, and it always seems to be a mis-read/understanding of what was posted.

The comment was aimed at using a striped SSD set for scratch, but there's other issues as well (been mentioned before), such as available bandwidth in the ICH.

If a user is willing to accept say the 40GB OWC unit and realize they'll need to implement a MTBR of 1 - 1.5 years (worst case = $100 per year at the current MSRP), then it could work for Photoshop's scratch space, and only one would be needed. But this may not be acceptable for everyone, particularly enthusiast/hobbyist users going by the budgets listed in various posts on RAID setup help.

There are solutions for bandwidth issues with the ICH of course (all other issues either not applicable, such as OS/applications drive use, or decided they're acceptable). ATTO's 6.0Gb/s non-RAID HBA's or the 6.0Gb/s RAID products (ATTO and Areca) for example, but that's rather expensive to most users. A simple 6.0Gb/s SATA card could also help, but so far none are EFI bootable that I've seen, and those currently with OS X drivers are eSATA only. I realize it's possible to run the cables back through a PCI bracket, but it's messy IMO, and the cards (i.e. newertech) are also a bit limited (500MB/s at best, as they're 1x lane Gen. 2.0 cards).

MLC based SSD's for parity based arrays is a bad idea given the current write cycle limitations. SLC is fine, but quite expensive yet. This will change over time (eMLC, lower prices on SLC, and other Flash technolgies that haven't reached the market yet), but for the moment, the cost is still too high for most.

nanofrog. Areca has a new card series that supports 6.0Gb/s

http://www.areca.us/products/1880.htm

doc
I know, and have posted this in another couple of threads. :)

Best yet, they're actually available (ATTO's are harder to find in RAID versions). Their H6xx products (non-RAID HBA's) are readily available from what I've seen (cheaper too, which could be of interest for those wanting to run SSD's on an internal controller for either additional ports or bandwidth issues).

[charlieroberts]

nice setup!

[banosr]

Sorry for the delay, I had to set everything up, it was a Holiday in Mexico and also I have to work from time to time but hear are the test and the photos.

[banosr]

As you may see I am not the best at routing cables or taking pictures by that matter, as you can see I had to custom made the top of the DX4 and had it soldered to the front part to fit all the disks the way I wanted. Hope this helps.

[nanofrog]

Sorry for the delay, I had to set everything up, it was a Holiday in Mexico and also I have to work from time to time but hear are the test and the photos.
Is the image on the left the 4x SSD stripe set?

I ask, as I'd have expected more from 4x C300's. The VR's do look good however. Wonder what's going on.

BTW, what are the stripe sizes? You may want to experiment with them to see if you can eek out any peformance improvement.

[banosr]

I had a mixup with the drives, I will be reposting the exact array setup as well as the tests.

Sorry for the mixup

[banosr]

I don't know how the file size or video frame rates influence the results, if you need different parameters please let me know.

The SSD have 2 active partitions of 128 GB each.

[philipma1957]

I had a mixup with the drives, I will be reposting the exact array setup as well as the tests.

Sorry for the mixup

Don't be sorry bro.. First off thanks for getting back with some photos. Second which machine is this pro 2010 or 2009?

[banosr]

Its just 1 partition of the whole array.

[banosr]

Don't be sorry bro.. First off thanks for getting back with some photos. Second which machine is this pro 2010 or 2009?

It's a 2009

[nanofrog]

I had a mixup with the drives, I will be reposting the exact array setup as well as the tests.
Not a problem, and as already mentioned, it's nothing to be sorry about.

I don't know how the file size or video frame rates influence the results, if you need different parameters please let me know.

The SSD have 2 active partitions of 128 GB each.
The test you've done looks good (10bit, 2GB, cache disabled).

Run the test again with the cache Enabled, and see what happens. ;)

As a reminder, what stripe size did you use when creating the SSD array?

You may want to experiment with this, as you may be able to increase the performance.

[banosr]

When I created the Array I left everything as default, since I don't have much knowledge of what the changes would do.

[nanofrog]

When I created the Array I left everything as default, since I don't have much knowledge of what the changes would do.
Create the array with different stripe sizes, and test the throughputs (includes real world testing = applications with test files). Once done, you'll see what's the best fit for your usage.

I know this takes time, but it's worth it. And you'll learn about your setup's operation. :)

[JulianBoolean]

Setup

Mac Pro
Quad-Core Intel Xeon 2.26 GHz
Memory 16 GB
Mac OSX 10.6.4


- 4 Crucial Real SSD 300 (Boot Drive and Aps) in Transintl DX4
- 4 10k Velociraptors (Scratch) connected to MaxConnect SAS/SATA BackPlane Attachment for Mac Pro [2009] Attaching the backplate to the DX4 was tricky (Involved a visit to the blacksmith).
- 2 WD Caviar Black 2TB (Backup 1) in Transint Pro Caddy 2 in optical bay.
- 1 x ATTO Technology ExpressSAS R608 8-Port Internal 6Gb/s SAS SATA RAID Controller.
- LaCie 12big Rack Fibre via NAS as Backup in Raid 5 connected to a Xserve


The 4 Crucial and the 4 Velociraptors connected to the Atto (2 striped sets), the 2 Caviar (Software Striped) connected to sata out ports of the bacplane in bays 1 and 2.

Please let me know what benchs you would like and what programs to use.

I still have not been able to boot from the Atto card, even tough in the Atto configuration I have boot enabled. I hope to fix this soon since I am booting from my past HD connected to the DVD Cable.

The OP is probably long gone, but I've managed to stumble into this thread and am wildly intrigued. If I'm reading the bench results correctly The OP seems to have surpassed the ICH bandwidth limit of 690 or so and arrived at a really fast, (800 M/ps range) configuration, without going outside the mac, ie an external 4 or 8 bay tower.

I'm wondering what a set up like this might cost? anybody hazard a guess?

- Julian

[nanofrog]

The OP is probably long gone, but I've managed to stumble into this thread and am wildly intrigued. If I'm reading the bench results correctly The OP seems to have surpassed the ICH bandwidth limit of 690 or so and arrived at a really fast, (800 M/ps range) configuration, without going outside the mac, ie an external 4 or 8 bay tower.

I'm wondering what a set up like this might cost? anybody hazard a guess?

- Julian
The SSD's, HDD's, RAID card, and mount alone (using the cheapest drives that fit):
ATTO R608 (http://www.provantage.com/~56SANVARATTO.htm) $838
DX4 (http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2799) $129
HDD adapter kit (http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=189%20) $129
4x Crucial 64GB C300 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148361&cm_re=crucial_C300-_-20-148-361-_-Product) SSD's $620
4x 150GB Velociraptors (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136549&cm_re=velociraptor-_-22-136-549-_-Product) HDD's $720

Subtotal $2436

Of course, you can get higher with larger capacity drives, and the rest of the system may scare the pants off of you. :eek: :p

BTW, the ICH limit is ~660MB/s (690 is more than it's capable of). ;)

[JulianBoolean]

The SSD's, HDD's, RAID card, and mount alone (using the cheapest drives that fit):
ATTO R608 (http://www.provantage.com/~56SANVARATTO.htm) $838
DX4 (http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2799) $129
HDD adapter kit (http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=189%20) $129
4x Crucial 64GB C300 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148361&cm_re=crucial_C300-_-20-148-361-_-Product) SSD's $620
4x 150GB Velociraptors (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136549&cm_re=velociraptor-_-22-136-549-_-Product) HDD's $720

Subtotal $2436

Of course, you can get higher with larger capacity drives, and the rest of the system may scare the pants off of you. :eek: :p

BTW, the ICH limit is ~660MB/s (690 is more than it's capable of). ;)

Nano,

Cool, thanks for the above pricing info.

Q: One thing I'm not totally understanding is the bacplane thinga ma jiggy from max Upgrades you've linked. It's just a connector? a cable? a way to re- route either the 4 ssds or the 4 raptors to the atto card? or away from the ICH? is this how the 660 ICH limit is surpassed?

Q: How is it that this set up stays entirely internal, and exceeds the ~660MB/s limit of anything put inside the mac? My crude and admittedly technically challenged logic can't wrap my head around this. Perhaps the re - routing going on in the OP's configuration is where the magic is?

Q: I see an abundance of members here wanting to have the boot and apps on a stripe set of 2, 3, and in this case, 4 ssds. I must be missing something. What is the point? (not being argumentative here, just curious) Is it just to get faster boot ups or faster application launches? Perhaps I don't see any great benefit because I typically only run one application (photoshop) 10 hours a day? I know there is some benefit to fast read times on the boot drive, when the OS does it's SWAP thing. But uncertain how often or to what extent this occurs.

Thanks!

[johnnymg]

Anand is not recommending these drives for use in Macs which lack Trim support...

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3812/the-ssd-diaries-crucials-realssd-c300/9

Measureabators stuck in an Escher loop forever obsessing over how long it takes to complete a task.................. how sad.

On a more grounded note, I haven't seen any change in the performance of my C300. However, I do run my SSD's with <50% fill so maybe that explains why I haven't seen any change in drive performance.

Like everything in life.............. YMMV.

cheers
JohnG

[nanofrog]

Q: One thing I'm not totally understanding is the bacplane thinga ma jiggy from max Upgrades you've linked. It's just a connector? a cable? a way to re- route either the 4 ssds or the 4 raptors to the atto card? or away from the ICH? is this how the 660 ICH limit is surpassed?
It's a kit composed of machined trays and cables (2x; one for data, one for power) that attach to each drive, and place the ends into a single MiniSAS connector (= version you need = aka SFF-8087; which is the end you need for most RAID cards).

You need this because the backplane connectors (SATA + power) are soldered directly to the backplane board (has the PCIe slots soldered to it as well). The OEM trays are different (longer) since 2009 so the drives will plug directly to the connectors on the backplane board.

So the new drive tray/mounts in the MaxUpgrades kit are shallower in order to allow for the necessary cables to be plugged into the drive.

The downside to this kit, is you're no longer using those 4x SATA ports on the ICH.

You may be able to, via RT angle SATA cables for example, and route them somewhere else (say an optical bay or DX4 (http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2799)). This idea may or may not work, so it's just a possibility (assuming you can find physical locations for the disks, cables, routing path, and a means of power for the drives).

Hopefully, this makes sense.

Q: How is it that this set up stays entirely internal, and exceeds the ~660MB/s limit of anything put inside the mac? My crude and admittedly technically challenged logic can't wrap my head around this. Perhaps the re - routing going on in the OP's configuration is where the magic is?
You're moving the bandwidth used to the PCIe lanes (ideally, you put the RAID card in slot 2, as it's an 8x lane unit; it will still work in slot 3 or 4, but only has 4x lanes available to it). ;)

Q: I see an abundance of members here wanting to have the boot and apps on a stripe set of 2, 3, and in this case, 4 ssds. I must be missing something. What is the point? (not being argumentative here, just curious) Is it just to get faster boot ups or faster application launches? Perhaps I don't see any great benefit because I typically only run one application (photoshop) 10 hours a day? I know there is some benefit to fast read times on the boot drive, when the OS does it's SWAP thing. But uncertain how often or to what extent this occurs.
Performance, cost, or perhaps just someone that likes to tinker.

In terms of performance, a stripe set is usually associated more with sustained transfers rather than random access (what SSD's are really good for vs. mechanical), but even random access gets some improvement.

As per real world performance gains, the only way to really know, is to try it out (experiement), as the application details aren't really available (i.e. what runs as single threaded and multi-threaded in suites such as CS5). The users that have gone to similar lengths have posted the results (i.e. save operation in Photoshop for example, is single threaded based on that information).

Cost is much easier to determine. This is the instance where you compare if the capacity of n smaller drives in a stripe set = that of a single SSD drive is cheaper than the single drive or not. In this instance, performance may be secondary (i.e. budgetary limitations rank first, performance second; not that performance isn't an issue at all). It may or may not be the case, as it will depend on the specific drives being compared.

But if there's the necessity to add a card, a RAID card will be worse cost wise than the single drive when added to smaller drives (RAID card is where performance trumps cost). A simple SATA 6.0Gb/s card (eSATA actually) is much easier to deal with IMO, and may work in favor of multiple drives in terms of cost (though currently available models can't boot OS X, and the cables must be run out of an empty PCI bracket to the ports on the card). Not pretty, but would be functional.

[Vanamonde]

Somewhat relevant to this thread so I will ask my question here:

I just purchased a 12core MacPro and am looking to fill it with 8 x 256GB C300 SSD drives all stripped together in a single raid0 array.
This will function as my startup, apps, and media drive.

I have a 14TB DroboPro running Time Machine as my backup, so no need to raid for redundancy. Just looking for maximum speed.

My questions are:

• Is there a RAID card with 8 internal connections, 6Gb/s & bootable?
I found ExpressSAS R608 and the Areca ARC-1880... but not sure if I can boot up off of these.
• Is there something I am overlooking... is this system going to work as planned (provided I find an appropriate RAID controller)?

Thanks!

[JulianBoolean]

Somewhat relevant to this thread so I will ask my question here:

I just purchased a 12core MacPro and am looking to fill it with 8 x 256GB C300 SSD drives all stripped together in a single raid0 array.
This will function as my startup, apps, and media drive.

I have a 14TB DroboPro running Time Machine as my backup, so no need to raid for redundancy. Just looking for maximum speed.

My questions are:

• Is there a RAID card with 8 internal connections, 6Gb/s & bootable?
I found ExpressSAS R608 and the Areca ARC-1880... but not sure if I can boot up off of these.
• Is there something I am overlooking... is this system going to work as planned (provided I find an appropriate RAID controller)?

Thanks!


You might want to check this comparison test on the crucial SSDs :)

http://macperformanceguide.com/SSD-RealWorld-SevereDuty.html

[nanofrog]

My questions are:

• Is there a RAID card with 8 internal connections, 6Gb/s & bootable?
I found ExpressSAS R608 and the Areca ARC-1880... but not sure if I can boot up off of these.
• Is there something I am overlooking... is this system going to work as planned (provided I find an appropriate RAID controller)?
Both of those cards are bootable once you flash the firmware to the EFI version (can get it off of the disk that comes with it, or off of the support site).

Between the two, the Areca is a better choice (better price/performance ratio; includes internal cables, which are about $30USD each if you have to buy them, so it saves you another $60 or so as well as the price difference between the models). :) Provantage is a good site, has great prices, and even ships internationally (Areca ARC-1880i (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880i~7AREC03P.htm)).

You'll also need a mount of some sort (MaxUpgrades has a kit that will fit 8x 2.5" SSD's in a single optical bay - it also includes cables to get power to the drives; here (http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=190&CFID=1014767&CFTOKEN=83059051)).

[Transporteur]

How the heck did I miss this thread? :confused:

Impressive results you've got there. Thanks for providing benchmarks and pictures!

[nanofrog]

How the heck did I miss this thread? :confused:

Impressive results you've got there. Thanks for proving benchmarks and pictures!
The Areca RAID Forum (http://arecaraid.cineraid.com/forum/index.php?sid=76ff99f962c605700868bf8c76ec81ad) is another site that might interest you. ;)

[Vanamonde]

Both of those cards are bootable once you flash the firmware to the EFI version (can get it off of the disk that comes with it, or off of the support site).

Between the two, the Areca is a better choice (better price/performance ratio; includes internal cables, which are about $30USD each if you have to buy them, so it saves you another $60 or so as well as the price difference between the models). :) Provantage is a good site, has great prices, and even ships internationally (Areca ARC-1880i (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880i~7AREC03P.htm)).

You'll also need a mount of some sort (MaxUpgrades has a kit that will fit 8x 2.5" SSD's in a single optical bay - it also includes cables to get power to the drives; here (http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=190&CFID=1014767&CFTOKEN=83059051)).

Awesome thx!

I'll go with the Areca. I also ordered a DX4, so all I need is a way to mount 4 SSD drives into the standard drive bays, and connect those to the Areca card.

Cheers, that info was very helpful!

[Vanamonde]

You might want to check this comparison test on the crucial SSDs :)

http://macperformanceguide.com/SSD-RealWorld-SevereDuty.html

Damn. If I had seen this before I would have gone with the OWC drives. I'm not scared of using my warranty on the crucial drives though. And with this many in the array the 6Gb/s drive speed may make a difference. Also, v6 firmware I believe is much better than the old v2.

We shall see though.

[Transporteur]

The Areca RAID Forum (http://arecaraid.cineraid.com/forum/index.php?sid=76ff99f962c605700868bf8c76ec81ad) is another site that might interest you. ;)

Cheers! I'll have a look.

BTW: Did I actually write proving? Providing was what I was looking for. :o