iTMS Expansions - Canada & Japan?

[MacRumors]

While we have previously rumored (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/10/20041012011843.shtml) the expansion of the iTMS into Canada on November 26, one of several countries that remains without its own store is Japan. An article on Cnet (http://news.com.com/Apple+plans+iTunes+for+Japan/2100-1027_3-5457193.html) points to a release of a localized store by March 2005, with a 100,000 track catalog emphasizing on Japanese music. Once released, the Japanese iTMS is expected to be the largest music download service available in that country.

Localized versions of the iTMS are now available in the US, Germany, France, the UK, Austria, Belgium, Finland, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, and Spain.

[MrMacMan]

Well...

If it isn't this rumor again.


Lets hope it holds water this time.

We have heard how many... many many many rumors on Europe and Canada... now its Japan along with it.

I can only help iTMS expands to cover my norther neighbor... and my favoriate source for good Cartoon Programing.

hehe.
--MrMacMan

[Mudbug]

there still is no real word on expansion into Australia - sorry guys (and girls, of course :).)

[Disko]

there still is no real word on expansion into Australia - sorry guys (and girls, of course :).)
And wouldn't all us crazy kids at www.appletalk.com.au love to hear word on that. :rolleyes:
People are getting a little jaded down here.

[killmoms]

And wouldn't all us crazy kids at www.appletalk.com.au love to hear word on that. :rolleyes:
People are getting a little jaded down here.
What? Dingo eat your iTMS? :P

It'll get there eventually, but even you have to admit that Australia isn't a bigger market than Japan.

[Doctor Q]

Does anybody have stats on the size of the brick-and-mortar music store business (e.g., retail CD sales) in Japan compared to the U.S. and other countries? That might be an indicator of Apple's potential market for online music in Japan.

[Porchland]

Are Australia, Japan and Canada the only major, Western markets without iTMS?

[swissmann]

Canada still doesn't have iTunes music store??? I thought that would have been taken care of a while ago.

[Trowaman]

To our northern neightbors remember this:

Jobs promised your store this month. No more than 13 days to go.

To Ireland, Japan, and Austrlia:

Hold tight mates, it'll be there sooner or later.

To Sudan, Iraq, and Chile:

Sorry guys, may be a while for ya'll.

[rikers_mailbox]

While we have previously rumored (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2004/10/20041012011843.shtml) the expansion of the iTMS into Canada on November 26. . .

are other iTunes/iPod annoucements possible that day? It is the Tuesday before the busiest shopping day of the year, aka Black Friday (http://retailindustry.about.com/library/terms/b/bld_black_friday.htm).

. . would be a great time for a release of flashPods. :D

[bousozoku]

Are Australia, Japan and Canada the only major, Western markets without iTMS?

Japan and Australia are western? :D I suppose they're west of TN.

Ireland is the other EU nation that hasn't gone.

[Trowaman]

oh! One more thing . . .

HOORAY!! MAC RUMORS BROKE A STORY!!!! It may be iTMS Canada release date but Appleinsider and Thinksecret don't have this story.

[macridah]

This is taking it straight to sony. The mini disc is suppose to be big over there, but that will soon change. Actually, the end of all discs will come soon, everyone knows that.

This should also help out sales in japan. every conference call, steve talks about japanese revenues needs to increase. this will definintely help that.

[BeigeUser]

Does anybody have stats on the size of the brick-and-mortar music store business (e.g., retail CD sales) in Japan compared to the U.S. and other countries? That might be an indicator of Apple's potential market for online music in Japan.

Japan is a different market from the U.S. A good chunk of music revenue comes from CD rentals. The concept is just like the Video/DVD rentals in the states. It's almost as if the record companies don't care if the the music is illegally copied as long as they get money from CD rentals. Copy protection is used on the discs so ripping may be problematic but copying to MDs (which is extremely popular in Japan) is no problem at all.

Japanese music is available for rental at almost the same time that it is released for retail. Foreign music takes one year after retail before it's available to rent.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that comparing retail sales is not an accurate indicator of Apple's potential market in Japan.

[MacinDoc]

are other iTunes/iPod annoucements possible that day? It is the Tuesday before the busiest shopping day of the year, aka Black Friday (http://retailindustry.about.com/library/terms/b/bld_black_friday.htm).
Actually, Nov. 26 is "Black Friday", and Apple itself had a major music event on "Black Friday" last year, on Nov. 28, 2003, to be exact. If you remember, Apple offered 10% off all music-related products, on that day only...

[Freg3000]

oh! One more thing . . .

HOORAY!! MAC RUMORS BROKE A STORY!!!! It may be iTMS Canada release date but Appleinsider and Thinksecret don't have this story.

This story first appeared on Macminute a few hours ago, so MR didn't break it. Although I do think the Nov. 26 date for iTMS Canda originally came from MR.

I am not dissapointed in MacRumors for lack of "completely shocking rumors," as I'd rather them have nothing then make it up.....(MacOSRumors anyone?)

[rikers_mailbox]

Actually, Nov. 26 is "Black Friday"

ooh. should have looked at a calender. . i don't even know what day it is today :o

[broken_keyboard]

Japan is a different market from the U.S. A good chunk of music revenue comes from CD rentals. The concept is just like the Video/DVD rentals in the states.

That's interesting, I have never heard of such a concept. Though you can borrow oldish CDs from the public library. I guess Steve Jobs' argument that people don't want subscription services, that they would rather own the music file doesn't hold in Japan. I wonder how well iTunes would do in such a market? Still, it is a large, important market, and even if a lower proportion of people use iTMS than in the U.S, it's still a lot of money.

[Doctor Q]

Japan is a different market from the U.S. A good chunk of music revenue comes from CD rentals. The concept is just like the Video/DVD rentals in the states. It's almost as if the record companies don't care if the the music is illegally copied as long as they get money from CD rentals. Copy protection is used on the discs so ripping may be problematic but copying to MDs (which is extremely popular in Japan) is no problem at all.Maybe the U.S. record labels could learn a lesson from that model. Although Americans are probably too enamored of owning music to be willing to rent it.

[x86isslow]

Maybe the U.S. record labels could learn a lesson from that model. Although Americans are probably too enamored of owning music to be willing to rent it.

the main difference here is that in Japan, there is population density of the level needed to sustain that kind of investment. and they have a culture that works with the idea of going to say a blockbuster and renting a few CDs.

In America, the distrobution infrastructure isn't always there, and people are too lazy to go to the store if they want to listen to something. The growth of OnDemand cable is the best example I can think of for why that kind of subscription would never work in this country.

[BeigeUser]

If Apple can create iTMS in Japan for about a $1 per song, that will be revolutionary.

To give you guys a general idea about music pricing in Japan. Retail CDs costs around $25 to $33 each. Rental CDs cost $4-5 for the album and $2.50-$3 for the CD Single. The various downloadable music services charge about $2.50 per song aside from the annual membership fees that they may charge.

It's apparent that Japanese labels like to overcharge. This is evident by the fact that the Japanese labels sell the exact same Japanese music in Korea at a cheaper price. I hear that the $33 CD is sold for around $15. In fact, there is now a black market that imports Japanese CDs from Korea.

From what I read in a Japanese article a while ago, someone speculated that Japanese labels were resisting Apple because Apple might break their closed market and pricing structure. Although this was entirely speculation, it didn't sound unreasonable to me.

BTW, at the rental store, they sell blank minidiscs and cd-r discs right next to the CDs. It's obvious that they promote illegal copying. Is it possible that the record labels get a kick-back from every blank media sold?

[Doctor Q]

It's apparent that Japanese labels like to overcharge. This is evident by the fact that the Japanese labels sell the exact same Japanese music in Korea at a cheaper price. I hear that the $33 CD is sold for around $15. In fact, there is now a black market that imports Japanese CDs from Korea.Is the high markup a sign that the Japanese market is willing to pay that much (for example, if demand exceeds supply) or that there isn't real competition to restrain prices?

[BeigeUser]

Is the high markup a sign that the Japanese market is willing to pay that much (for example, if demand exceeds supply) or that there isn't real competition to restrain prices?

Hard to say. Being a regular consumer, I don't really know what those executives are thinking. But pure speculation from what I see, it seems that the big record labels have some kind of agreement on how they price CDs.

[angelneo]

I have not used iTMS before so pardon my ignorance (it is not available in my country). Would it be possible to purchase music from other countries? If they release iTMS in Japan, does it means that the Japanese music is available worldwide?

[BeigeUser]

I have not used iTMS before so pardon my ignorance (it is not available in my country). Would it be possible to purchase music from other countries? If they release iTMS in Japan, does it means that the Japanese music is available worldwide?

Usually no. ITMS payments are made by credit card and Apple checks which country issues the card. If the iTMS country and credit card country doesn't match, Apple won't allow you to buy music.

There are ways around this though. I am a U.S. citizen living in Japan so I still have my old U.S. issue Mastercard which I can use to buy U.S. music while in Japan. I think you can also download music from overseas if someone sends you a iTMS gift certificate. The only problem being that somebody needs to get the gift certificates for you first.

[Fukui]

That's interesting, I have never heard of such a concept. Though you can borrow oldish CDs from the public library. I guess Steve Jobs' argument that people don't want subscription services, that they would rather own the music file doesn't hold in Japan. I wonder how well iTunes would do in such a market? .
Well, its a little different. You can actually legally copy your rented music. So you are in effect buying it and locking it into your MD (no way to get it out). I've rented singles for about 3 dollars each, so if iTunes can sell a single at ¥100 then that would be pretty good.

[deejemon]

*

[Windowlicker]

To give you guys a general idea about music pricing in Japan. Retail CDs costs around $25 to $33 each. Rental CDs cost $4-5 for the album and $2.50-$3 for the CD Single. The various downloadable music services charge about $2.50 per song aside from the annual membership fees that they may charge.

33e is pretty high! Here in Finland the average "expensive" CD is around 26e. I personally welcomed iTMS when it arrived and have bought a couple of tracks (yet there's not too much music there I don't already have). Hope you people there get this service soon too!

[Yvan256]

What? Dingo eat your iTMS? :P

Shouldn't that be "THE DINGO ATE YOUR iTMS."? :D

Gotta love pointless Seinfeld references.

[Yvan256]

To our northern neightbors remember this:

Jobs promised your store this month. No more than 13 days to go.

No more than 8 days according to the circulating rumors, too.

I still wish all the stores shared their content though... :(

[Yvan256]

Hahahaha.... yes, I have a fake laugh with your nick all over it.

That never stops being funny, even 20 years after a baby girl was killed.

Oh, that really happened? :confused: :(

[Aglio]

There are ways around this though. I am a U.S. citizen living in Japan so I still have my old U.S. issue Mastercard which I can use to buy U.S. music while in Japan. I think you can also download music from overseas if someone sends you a iTMS gift certificate. The only problem being that somebody needs to get the gift certificates for you first.

There is another loophole known in Japan (and maybe in many other countries), but I dare not reveal it here, for fear it be sealed.

[Bakey]

Oh, that really happened? :confused: :(

Take a look at "A Cry in the Dark" starring Meryl Streep & Sam Neill... 'tis based on a true story.

[dotmike]

there still is no real word on expansion into Australia - sorry guys (and girls, of course :).)

I heard some rumour (well, this is the place for those) that Telstra and NineMSN have done a deal with the record companies to keep them out (the iTunes Music Store that is).

If so, they've probably brainwashed Molly Meldrum into saying it's a good thing too, like they did when parallel imports was the "big thing".

Besides, the IT media industry here hates Apple with a vengeance. For example, I have never read a positive review of the iPod here.

I remember about a year ago, the Sydney Morning Herald published a "definitive" review of MP3 players, and just happened not to even mention the iPod! The only reason it's written about more recently is the sheer volume of sales that would make them look churlish if they kept ignoring it. It always has so many shortcomings though. Funny that. It must kill the journalists when the customers don't seem to agree.

[dotmike]

That never stops being funny, even 20 years after a baby girl was killed.

Not to mention the toddler being torn to shreds on Fraser Island last year by two dingos. Friggin' pests.

Lighten up though! Elaine did a pretty good impersonation of Meryl Streep butchering an Australian accent. Maybe it's hard for Americans to imitate, that's why they practise the "dingo talk" so much...?

[aethier]

BTW, at the rental store, they sell blank minidiscs and cd-r discs right next to the CDs. It's obvious that they promote illegal copying. Is it possible that the record labels get a kick-back from every blank media sold?

possibly, they do in canada afterall, we are even taxed more on our mp3 players for some retarded reason

aethier

[iAlan]

CD's are quite expensive here, and yes it is cheaper to get Japanese music from other Asian countries. So much so that both the JRIA and Japanese government are taking steps. A quote from Kyodo News February 25th "The Agency for Cultural Affairs plans to propose an amendment to the copyright law to restrict imports of low-priced Japanese music CDs produced abroad for foreign markets...The proposal calls for introducing an ordinance that would ban the CDs for up to seven years after their original release in Japan. The Japanese music industry is demanding a total ban because cheap foreign-made CDs are damaging domestic sales."

Rental CD's are very popular. As mentioned by one poster, the idea was that the music would be copied to MD and could not easily find it's way off the MD and onto another. A portion of the rental amount supposedly goes to the artist (read that as label) and a portion of the blank media cost goes to the JRIA, to be distributed to artists, just how they do this I do not know...but I think the artist is still the worst off of the parties.

Tower Records charges full price for CD's of Japanese artists (as these disks are distributed by the Japanese record labels) for around $30.00-$35.00. They import the foreign CD's and these sell for around $18.00-$20.00. The Japan release of the foreign music usually includes a bonus track or two and sells for the same price as the Japanese artists, but not worth the extra $8.00-$10.00 really, but the liner notes and track listing are usually translated also, but still not worth it.

Existing download services are limited to what they 'own'. I do not think there is a service witch represents a variety of major labels and artists (please correct me if I am wrong). Not to mention Sony wanting to hold onto their music catalogue. Therefore, the current download charge is quite high (and remember a rental CD single usually has more than 1 track)

Another problem would be that most downloads would be single tracks not albums. It is quite the norm for a Japanese artist to only have 3-5 good songs on a CD (kind of like Eminem!) so why buy or download the whole album if you only want a handful of songs? This is not just my opinion, many of my Japanese friends have said this of a lot of artists. As the label machines would face less revenue from a listener who is fed up of having to buy a whole CD of crap, revenues would drop.

Bottom line, I am sure Apple would launch the iTMS-J tomorrow if they could get an agreement in place, I think it is the labels who want to continue to screw the listener.

Just my 2.1752 cents (at an exchange rate of 108.76)

[ct77]

Given that Apple explicitly stated in a press release on October 26 that iTMS is coming to Canada this month (November):

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2004/oct/26itmseu.html

... they had better deliver. Otherwise there'll be a lot of angry hosers in flannel jackets and toques flinging stubbies and back bacon at Apple Canada headquarters. Like, you know, eh? :D

http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Underground/6756/gwn.htm

[HoserHead]

are other iTunes/iPod annoucements possible that day? It is the Tuesday before the busiest shopping day of the year, aka Black Friday (http://retailindustry.about.com/library/terms/b/bld_black_friday.htm).

. . would be a great time for a release of flashPods. :D
The 26th is a Friday. Additionally, "Black Friday" won't have anything to do with the launch of the iTunes Music Store in Canada, as Thanksgiving has come and gone for us already.

[ASP272]

Please, Dear God, let Canada get the iTMS on November 26th so we can quit seeing this rumor pop up OVER and OVER AGAIN! :rolleyes:

[HoserHead]

Please, Dear God, let Canada get the iTMS on November 26th so we can quit seeing this rumor pop up OVER and OVER AGAIN! :rolleyes:
I don't see how there's a rumour at all. Apple has announced that the iTunes Music Store will open in Canada in November, which means that we've got 13 days at maximum. There's no question whether Canada will get the iTMS.

[Eastend]

It will probably happen, but I still find it hard to believe that the Japanese government would allow apple to have this on line store before the Japanese companies are firmly established. So I'll believe this when it happens, and I do hope that it is true. Of course, then again apple Japan is a Japanese company.

Brian

[bousozoku]

...
It's apparent that Japanese labels like to overcharge. This is evident by the fact that the Japanese labels sell the exact same Japanese music in Korea at a cheaper price. I hear that the $33 CD is sold for around $15. In fact, there is now a black market that imports Japanese CDs from Korea.


From what it's worth, versions of Korean music sold outside the country always seem to sell for more than the Korea-only versions in Korea.

[BeigeUser]

...but I still find it hard to believe that the Japanese government would allow apple to have this on line store before the Japanese companies are firmly established...

Yeah, I forgot about that part. The Japanese government is extremely protective of it's industries. If Apple makes the wrong moves, all kinds of laws will suddenly pop up to prevent Apple from gaining any foothold. Just like how all foreign cars have more than $8000.00 automatically added to sticker price in the form of "inspection fees". This makes sure than the average consumer will never consider buying imports.

But again Microsoft somehow made it in Japan so if Apple could just bribe a few politicians things might work out just fine.

[moot]

I dont know if Apple will be able to persuade the Japanese music companies into signing a deal where they can price singles at around $1.

And anyway, most of the people I know, who own an MP3 player, rip from the rental CDs. Dont know how effective the so-called protection is. They probably wouldnt bother so much with downloading if it ever came available.

Then again, priced well and the iTMS would probably persude enough people into giving Apple a large market. Most people would think nothing of the 100yen to download a song.

[sushi]

Is it possible that the record labels get a kick-back from every blank media sold?
I have read where they do.

Need to verify, but I think you are in the right ballpark.

BTW, good capture with your previous coments. Weird market over here for sure.

Sushi

[sushi]

Hard to say. Being a regular consumer, I don't really know what those executives are thinking. But pure speculation from what I see, it seems that the big record labels have some kind of agreement on how they price CDs.
The Japanese companies have always gouged the customers.

Apple Japan was famous about it 10 years ago. I would by a US Mac for x dollars. The same Mac in Japan was a little over 2 times as much. In some cases close to three times as much.

Some other examples. Mobile Oil Japan is not the same as Mobile Oil US. In fact, my US Mobile Oil, Shell Oil and some other gasoline credit cards would not work over here.

Same for AMEX. AMEX Japan cards have the magnetic strip on the inside.

I guess you could say the Japanese have a yen for closed markets! ;)

Sushi

[SiliconAddict]

*sighs* I want some cross pollination with all these international stores. Spec I want access to Japan's music catalog dang it!!

[sushi]

Yeah, I forgot about that part. The Japanese government is extremely protective of it's industries. If Apple makes the wrong moves, all kinds of laws will suddenly pop up to prevent Apple from gaining any foothold. Just like how all foreign cars have more than $8000.00 automatically added to sticker price in the form of "inspection fees". This makes sure than the average consumer will never consider buying imports.
You mean how they allow produce like letuce in country. Only problem is that it takes a while to inspect. And of course by the time they inpect the letuce, it has gone bad.

Love that Japanese efficiency...

Sushi

[sushi]

*sighs* I want some cross pollination with all these international stores. Spec I want access to Japan's music catalog dang it!!
All you need is a Japanese issued credit card. :p

Sushi

[wdlove]

The 26th is a Friday. Additionally, "Black Friday" won't have anything to do with the launch of the iTunes Music Store in Canada, as Thanksgiving has come and gone for us already.

All good things come to those that patiently wait. At least the time is very near.

[lalcan]

All good things come to those that patiently wait.

Alas, by that logic, the -as yet unannounced- Latin-American iTMS will be insuperable!!, i can only hope it becomes a reality within my lifetime... :mad:

You'd expect that with the huge piracy available the executives from the music industry would be looking for any alternative to distribute music, but they are blinded...

Many latin groups are fans of Apple, my iMac even came with a preloaded (and great) album by Gustavo Cerati! (whom i believe to lurk around here sometimes ;) )

[Porchland]

Japan and Australia are western? :D I suppose they're west of TN.

Ireland is the other EU nation that hasn't gone.

:D I meant Western in the sense of having running water, toilet paper, etc., (but I LOL'd anyway).

[timmyOtool]

It will be interesting to see what compromises Apple will have to make to thier over-all model in order to get itms Japan up.

[SilvorX]

possibly, they do in canada afterall, we are even taxed more on our mp3 players for some retarded reason

aethier
all because of p2p, the levy from mp3 players/CD-Rs goes to the music industry.

[cantrdr]

Usually no. ITMS payments are made by credit card and Apple checks which country issues the card. If the iTMS country and credit card country doesn't match, Apple won't allow you to buy music.

There are ways around this though. I am a U.S. citizen living in Japan so I still have my old U.S. issue Mastercard which I can use to buy U.S. music while in Japan. I think you can also download music from overseas if someone sends you a iTMS gift certificate. The only problem being that somebody needs to get the gift certificates for you first.

Have you had any issues downloading music while in Japan? Did you select Japan as your country when setting up iTunes or did you select the US?(does it matter?)
I'm Canadian living in Ireland so same situation(almost), hoping to get an earlier start then some of my peers on this island!! Unless of course Ireland is announced alongside Canada on the 26th!!!

[ct77]

Similar to the period of time before the last update of iTMS in October, there is "looping" behaviour again.

When first clicking on Music Store in iTunes from Ontario, Canada, I get:

http://homepage.mac.com/russellwgordon/1.jpg

NOTE: The appearance of the "not available" message has also been updated as well, versus previous visits to the iTMS.

I then get the country selection screen (not to scale):

http://homepage.mac.com/russellwgordon/2.jpg

Finally, if I click on, say, the United States, I'm back here again:

http://homepage.mac.com/russellwgordon/1.jpg

Meaningful? Perhaps not, but interesting... :o

[Polek]

Same in Poland.

We are waiting as well. :o

[Sharewaredemon]

I noticed that today also, but remember, last time this happened, it happened to everyone who didn't have access to the store to purchase music. That having been said, this probably means that Canada will be jumping on board very soon.

[HoserHead]

I noticed that today also, but remember, last time this happened, it happened to everyone who didn't have access to the store to purchase music. That having been said, this probably means that Canada will be jumping on board very soon.
Just look at iTMS Canada - Next Month (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=92937) for confirmation that Canada and Ireland are going to have their very own iTunes Music Store before long.

[Sharewaredemon]

Just look at iTMS Canada - Next Month (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=92937) for confirmation that Canada and Ireland are going to have their very own iTunes Music Store before long.

Well yes I knew that, which is why I said that, you see, anyone in the world who does not live in a iTMS country, get's this endless loop, and last time, this happened, everyone thought they were getting their music store, yet, we didn't. The reason I said it was so, was that we have 5 days before it has been a month, so Canada will be getting iTMS soon. As for Ireland, I do not recall having seen anything about them.

[jared_kipe]

When will we be able to buy music from other countries in america. I have been stuck downloading music from japan, because it is so ridiculously impossible to get it here.

[Santaduck]

I wonder if this means that there will be more Japanese labels available for sale in the iTMS of the US or Europe.

[jimjiminyjim]

Well... it seems to me that this rumor is now moot. There's still some time left in the working day, depending on where you live in the world... but, really... we're out of time. Boo. Next week.. Tuesday?