Hyper-Threading

[Freis968]

Why is the 27" iMac w/ the i5 processor the ONLY one that does not support Hyper-Threading? What exactly does "supports" mean?

[Hopsdaballa04]

Because Apple is pure evil.. Not really, but when it comes to making money it sure seems like it. They gimped the quad core i5 so that people will spend the extra 200 dollars for the i7. I wonder how much it cost them for the i7 processor compared to the i5?

Just like they gimped the iPad, they could have offered it with a front facing camera, but they will wait till next year to add that feature. Just so that people that bought iPads this year will buy iPads next year. It's really a great business strategy if you want to make money.

[TMRaven]

I really don't see the i5 as gimped.

[brentsg]

Because Apple is pure evil.. Not really, but when it comes to making money it sure seems like it. They gimped the quad core i5 so that people will spend the extra 200 dollars for the i7. I wonder how much it cost them for the i7 processor compared to the i5?

Just like they gimped the iPad, they could have offered it with a front facing camera, but they will wait till next year to add that feature. Just so that people that bought iPads this year will buy iPads next year. It's really a great business strategy if you want to make money.

Right.. It's probably got nothing to do with the fact that a quad core i5 with hyper-threading doesn't exist.

Seriously, I get that people like to make Apple out to be an evil money-grubbing company, but this is a pretty lame attempt.

[ramallite]

It's a tiered approach:

Start with i3 with 4 virtual cores, then move up to i5 with 4 virtual cores, followed by i5 with 4 actual cores, and finally the i7 with 8 virtual cores.

[jav6454]

Because Apple is pure evil.. Not really, but when it comes to making money it sure seems like it. They gimped the quad core i5 so that people will spend the extra 200 dollars for the i7. I wonder how much it cost them for the i7 processor compared to the i5?

Just like they gimped the iPad, they could have offered it with a front facing camera, but they will wait till next year to add that feature. Just so that people that bought iPads this year will buy iPads next year. It's really a great business strategy if you want to make money.

This post proves beyond any measure that some people should shut up before spouting bu|l crap and nonesense. i5 Processors are not 'gimped' by Apple.

Right.. It's probably got nothing to do with the fact that a quad core i5 with hyper-threading doesn't exist.

Seriously, I get that people like to make Apple out to be an evil money-grubbing company, but this is a pretty lame attempt.

You are sorta on the point, but still wrong. Read below.

It's an Intel tiered approach:

Start with i3 with 2 virtual and 2 physical cores and Turbo Boast disabled, then move up to i5 with 2 virtual and 2 physical cores, followed by i5 with 4 actual cores both i5 class CPUs support an aggressive Turbo Boast, and finally the i7 with 4 virtual and 4 physical cores on LGA1156 and LGA 1366 which both support Turbo Boast at a mild manner.

THIS x1000. Except the posts is missing some information. I bolded what was missing and clarifications.

[Hopsdaballa04]

Right.. It's probably got nothing to do with the fact that a quad core i5 with hyper-threading doesn't exist.

Seriously, I get that people like to make Apple out to be an evil money-grubbing company, but this is a pretty lame attempt.

I don't actually believe that apple is an evil money grubbing company; I was joking about that. What I do believe is that they are a publicly traded business and ultimately are trying to make money. The more money they get, the better for stockholders. If anyone is lame it is you for not opening your mind to the possibility that Apple maybe is in business to make money.

[f1restarter]

So is hyper-threading good or bad for gaming? I remember reading about some benchmarks last year between the i5 and i7 for gaming and they seemed pretty equal.

[jav6454]

So is hyper-threading good or bad for gaming? I remember reading about some benchmarks between the i5 and i7 for gaming and they seemed pretty equal.

If the game is 'core aware' then having hyperthreading will benefit the game inmensely. However, if it is a non aware game, then having hyperthread will do nothing, and in some cases cause actual game performance loss.

So in games without multicore support, it's best to disable hyperthreading.

[Hopsdaballa04]

This post proves beyond any measure that some people should shut up before spouting bu|l crap and nonesense. i5 Processors are not 'gimped' by Apple.



You are sorta on the point, but still wrong. Read below.



THIS x1000. Except the posts is missing some information. I bolded what was missing and clarifications.

Yes, I'm sure apple didn't tell Intel to gimp the processor. Apple could have just used the i7 instead of the i5 it would have cost them what maybe 50 dollars difference? I don't know exactly what the whole sale price difference is between the two models. It can't be to the extreme of 200 dollars though.

[jav6454]

Yes, I'm sure apple didn't tell Intel to gimp the processor. Apple could have just used the i7 instead of the i5 it would have cost them what maybe 50 dollars difference? I don't know exactly what the whole sale price difference is between the two models. It can't be to the extreme of 200 dollars though.

You need to educate yourself more. There is a huge difference in processor's prices because Intel has it that way, not Apple. If you want to rant on Apple overcharging or shafting you, then argue the prices of their HDD, SSD and RAM upgrades; that's ripoff at its max. Just go online and check the prices yourself....

[Hopsdaballa04]

You need to educate yourself more. There is a huge difference in processor's prices because Intel has it that way, not Apple. If you want to rant on Apple overcharging or shafting you, then argue the prices of their HDD, SSD and RAM upgrades; that's ripoff at its max. Just go online and check the prices yourself....

Please tell me where I can find whole sale prices and I will educate myself. Your right once again, a business strategy for people that are not willing to upgrade the RAM themselves and would like the peace of mind of their RAM, SSD, or HDD being warrantied along with the machine. It's not the RAM, SSD or HDD that is expensive it's the install and warranty that apple provides along with it.

[jav6454]

Please tell me where I can find whole sale prices and I will educate myself.

Have you ever visited Newegg?

[TMRaven]

Have you ever visited Newegg?

Newegg has the price difference between i5 760 and i7 870 at 80usd. A lot closer to "50 dollars" than "huge difference." Less than half of what apple's suggesting the price difference is.

[brentsg]

You are sorta on the point, but still wrong. Read below.


I'm wrong how? Apple can't buy an i5 quad with hyper-threading because Intel does not produce one.

[jav6454]

Newegg has the price difference between i5 760 and i7 870 at 80usd. A lot closer to "50 dollars" than "huge difference." Less than half of what apple's suggesting the price difference is.

Newegg is the MicroCenter of the Internet. Of coarse you will get low differences. But check the actual prices, not the discounted ones. Or better yet, check Intel's MSRP prices.


I'm wrong how? Apple can't buy an i5 quad with hyper-threading because Intel does not produce one.

Yes, they do make i5s with Hyperthreading. See Clarkdale class i5 CPUs.

[Hopsdaballa04]

Have you ever visited Newegg?

Regardless New Egg would not show the whole sale price that apple is getting. New egg would only show the price that you as a consumer will receive. If you are educated, you will know that cutting out the middle man I.E. "new egg" will significantly drop the prices. Which is why I said whole sale, not consumer price.

[TMRaven]

Newegg is the MicroCenter of the Internet. Of coarse you will get low differences. But check the actual prices, not the discounted ones. Or better yet, check Intel's MSRP prices.




Yes, they do make i5s with Hyperthreading. See Clarkdale class i5 CPUs.

Why should I have to look someplace other than newegg? You specifically asked to check newegg. You can look at the official prices from intel's site as well, the price difference is 90 bucks, still less than half of what apple's trying to charge.

Clarkdales are a different core than Lynnfield, you can not compare the two.

[brentsg]

What I do believe is that they are a publicly traded business and ultimately are trying to make money. The more money they get, the better for stockholders. If anyone is lame it is you for not opening your mind to the possibility that Apple maybe is in business to make money.

Me not opening my mind?

It is the job of every publicly traded company to better the stock price and earn money for shareholders.. period.

But a lot of people seem to think this is evil and greedy. In fact it seems the current political environment would prefer to make this the common and proper way to think.

This, I do not understand. This is Capitalism, and it's the reason most of us enjoy the standard of living that we do.

[brentsg]

Yes, they do make i5s with Hyperthreading. See Clarkdale class i5 CPUs.

Please give the Intel part number for an i5 quad core that supports hyper-threading.

[jav6454]

Why should I have to look someplace other than newegg? You specifically asked to check newegg. You can look at the official prices from intel's site as well, the price difference is 90 bucks, still less than half of what apple's trying to charge.

Recall Apple always charges a premium over their stuff, so CPUs from Apple are not overpriced compared to other things.

Clarkdales are a different core than Lynnfield, you can not compare the two.

Yes you can. Both use the same architecture, LGA 1156 and the only difference is that Clarkdale is built upon 32nm process versus Lynnfield's 45nm process.

That difference does not disqualify their comparisson.



Please give the Intel part number for an i5 quad core that supports hyper-threading.

Core i5-600 series. Or more specifically i5-650, i5-655K, i5-660, i5-661, i5-670 and i5-680.

[Hopsdaballa04]

Me not opening my mind?

It is the job of every publicly traded company to better the stock price and earn money for shareholders.. period.

But a lot of people seem to think this is evil and greedy. In fact it seems the current political environment would prefer to make this the common and proper way to think.

This, I do not understand. This is Capitalism, and it's the reason most of us enjoy the standard of living that we do.

Ha Ha, lets not even get started on capitalism. It's also the reason that we as taxpayers had to bail out more than one bank, that still paid their top executives millions of dollars. I don't want this thread to get to ugly. I'm not against the idea of capitalism just how it has been implemented is wrong with a lot of companies. I wouldn't say Apple is one of those companies.

[TMRaven]

Recall Apple always charges a premium over their stuff, so CPUs from Apple are not overpriced compared to other things.



Yes you can. Both use the same architecture, LGA 1156 and the only difference is that Clarkdale is built upon 32nm process versus Lynnfield's 45nm process.

That difference does not disqualify their comparisson.

Apple charging over half the price for a cpu upgrade is just as much of a "ripoff," to put it in your words, as their HDDs or SSDs. Socket and manufacturing process is not the only difference between clarkdale and lynnfield. You can't just look at price differences, you have to look at percentage differences, when companies gouge prices.
The major difference would be that clarkdale has only 2 physical cores, while lynnfield has 4 physical cores.

You know, for someone who gets facts wrong, and constantly tries to counter argue points with things that only refute your original assertions, you sure don't have much reason to go tell people to "educate themselves more", now do you?

[brentsg]

Core i5-600 series. Or more specifically i5-650, i5-655K, i5-660, i5-661, i5-670 and i5-680.

Yes and those are all dual-core parts.

The OP asked why the 27" iMac QUAD i5 was the only one that did not support hyper-threading. I said it was because Intel does not make an i5 QUAD core CPU that supports hyper-threading.

You keep citing DUAL core parts as examples to the contrary.

[jav6454]

Apple charging over half the price for a cpu upgrade is just as much of a "ripoff," to put it in your words, as their HDDs or SSDs. Socket and manufacturing process is not the only difference between clarkdale and lynnfield. The major difference would be that clarkdale has only 2 physical cores, while lynnfield has 4 physical cores. You can't just look at price differences, you have to look at percentage differences, when companies gouge prices.

You know, for someone who gets facts wrong, and constantly tries to counter argue points with things that only refute your original assertions, you sure don't have much reason to go tell people to "educate themselves more", now do you?

Well let's see:

1. Apple premium's something because it's better tech: check
2. Lynnfield and Clarkdale being the same excpet for the tiered approach: check

Also, what percentages? Where do I mention percentages in my posts?

Yes and those are all dual-core parts.

The OP asked why the 27" iMac QUAD i5 was the only one that did not support hyper-threading. I said it was because Intel does not make an i5 QUAD core CPU that supports hyper-threading.

You keep citing DUAL core parts as examples to the contrary.

Let's remind you of this post:

It's an Intel tiered approach:

Start with i3 with 2 virtual and 2 physical cores and Turbo Boast disabled, then move up to i5 with 2 virtual and 2 physical cores, followed by i5 with 4 actual cores both i5 class CPUs support an aggressive Turbo Boast, and finally the i7 with 4 virtual and 4 physical cores on LGA1156 and LGA 1366 which both support Turbo Boast at a mild manner.

OP is complaining about i5s not having hyperthreading. Well that's the answer why. Intel has a tiered approach that Apple adopted (and premium'd). Don't like it? Buy somewhere else.

[brentsg]

OP is complaining about i5s not having hyperthreading. Well that's the answer why. Intel has a tiered approach that Apple adopted (and premium'd). Don't like it? Buy somewhere else.

Heh now you're just dodging the issue.

The OP didn't complain. He ASKED why that particular i5 didn't support hyper-threading.

I said it was because Intel did not produce a quad-core i5 that supported that feature.

You told me I was wrong and started citing dual-core parts. And here we are.

[Hopsdaballa04]

Apple Fan Boys (Brentsg & Jav), will keep Apple behind in the future when it could excel past Microsoft and any other electronics company. You are the reason Steve Jobs is able to say dumb stuff like just hold it another way when the iPhone 4 antenna issue came out. I bet you took his advice to heart and just held the phone another way.

[jav6454]

Heh now you're just dodging the issue.

The OP didn't complain. He ASKED why that particular i5 didn't support hyper-threading.

I said it was because Intel did not produce a quad-core i5 that supported that feature.

You told me I was wrong and started citing dual-core parts. And here we are.

The guy I quoted nailed the issue more perfectly. He said because Apple went on a tiered approach on their machines. However, I did say that not all i5s support hyperthreading and that it is up to Intel to decide because other users were rambling i5s had no hyperthread support.. That they didn't isn't Apple's fault now is it?


Apple Fan Boys (Brentsg & Jav), will keep Apple behind in the future when it could excel past Microsoft and any other electronics company. You are the reason Steve Jobs is able to say dumb stuff like just hold it another way when the iPhone 4 antenna issue came out. I bet you took his advice to heart and just held the phone another way.


You see there are many things I may be, but not a fanboy for Apple. I frown upon the iPhone antenna. I know there IS an issue. Power readings of my multimeter don't lie.

I actually didn't take his advice and ended up costing him money by getting one of the free cases. No, I did not choose a bumper.

[TMRaven]

Well let's see:

Also, what percentages? Where do I mention percentages in my posts?


I never said you mentioned percentages in your post. I said you need to look at percentages instead of raw price differences.

If apple charges 4 dollars for a 2 dollar sd card, then it's more of a ripoff than apple charging 500 dollars for a 400 dollar ssd. The ssd price difference is greater, but it doesn't mean it's more of a ripoff than apple's doubling the price of the sd card.

And yes, intel does not make ANY quad core i5 with hyperthreading. In fact, the major difference between intel's naming of i5 and i7 for quad cores, is that i7 has hyperthreading, while i5 does not.

[brentsg]

Apple Fan Boys (Brentsg & Jav), will keep Apple behind in the future when it could excel past Microsoft and any other electronics company.

I find it funny that you are name calling. You were the first reply to the OP and you replied with a 100% inaccurate answer.

Since I corrected you, I'm a fanboy. I suppose I should have cheered you on despite the fact that you were posting while having no clue what you were talking about?

[jav6454]

I find it funny that you are name calling. You were the first reply to the OP and you replied with a 100% inaccurate answer.

Since I corrected you, I'm a fanboy. I suppose I should have cheered you on despite the fact that you were posting while having no clue what you were talking about?

Same thing I was thinking, however, he omitts the fact we were arguing.

[Hopsdaballa04]

Same thing I was thinking, however, he omitts the fact we were arguing.

I'm pretty sure I admitted the fact that we were arguing. I should have explained myself better in my original post. Yes brent your original post was fan boyish, and it shows with how you have handled yourself throughout this thread.

[HLdan]

If anyone is lame it is you for not opening your mind to the possibility that Apple maybe is in business to make money.

And what sane business isnt? :rolleyes:

[brentsg]

I'm pretty sure I admitted the fact that we were arguing. I should have explained myself better in my original post. Yes brent your original post was fan boyish, and it shows with how you have handled yourself throughout this thread.

How I handled myself was fact vs. fiction.

Either a product exists or it does not. There is no gray area for this.

I couldn't care less what company was involved here. What gets under my skin are people who have advice and/or criticism to offer without knowledge to back it up. You posted that Apple gimped the quad i5 in order to get people to upgrade to the i7 when in fact a better i5 does not exist.

[Hellhammer]

If Lynnfield i5 had HT, Intel couldn't charge the premium for i7. It's nothing more but a marketing scheme done by Intel. Apple has nothing to do with this. Intel's naming system is simply lovely. It's so easy to understand and they never mix anything. I wonder is Intel even aware of their CPU naming, they must be confused as well :rolleyes:

[leman]

If Lynnfield i5 had HT, Intel couldn't charge the premium for i7. It's nothing more but a marketing scheme done by Intel. Apple has nothing to do with this. Intel's naming system is simply lovely. It's so easy to understand and they never mix anything. I wonder is Intel even aware of their CPU naming, they must be confused as well :rolleyes:

Exactly that. If i5 had hyper-threading, no-one would buy the i7 - this is how Intel does things. Apple has nothing to do with that. Its another fact that Apple overcharges for configuration upgrades, but well - this is how they make money.

[blinkin182]

If Lynnfield i5 had HT, Intel couldn't charge the premium for i7. It's nothing more but a marketing scheme done by Intel. Apple has nothing to do with this. Intel's naming system is simply lovely. It's so easy to understand and they never mix anything. I wonder is Intel even aware of their CPU naming, they must be confused as well :rolleyes:

It's kinda Windows-esc in its complexity and subtlety (sarcasm), I mean, I still don't get the logic behind going from Windows 98 to Windows XP, than to Windows Vista and then to Windows 7, on the other hand, no one could possibly guess what they'll call the next (unknown) revision to Windows! It could be called "45 Penguins" for all I know!

I googled and found this: http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/archive/b/windowsvista/archive/2008/10/14/why-7.aspx
Windows blog post that explains the "logic", however the commenters seem to be confused by the naming all the same...

Apple has always been strong in finding simple names for their products that most people remember. However, comparing the Intel chips can be tricky to understand.

[Eric-PTEK]

Intel screwed the pooch with their new CPU setup.

Life was much easier with the C2D, the base model did not support VT, the rest did.

Now you can buy it seems like 30 different chips, multiples with the same clock speeds, some with VT, some without. Hell the E5300 you can buy with and WITHOUT VT, have to pay attention to the series number.

There is C2D, C2S, C2Q, Pentium D(which is actually a C2D variation now), Celeron, etc....

i3, i5, and i7 did make it a bit easier but its still not very clear.

If your a long term purchaser then get hyper threading. Will it matter today, maybe depends on what your doing, but every month it will matter more and more.

It's huge if your running VM's.

As far as Newegg and CPU pricing. There is something fishy with that too. Intels's pricing schemes are smoke and mirrors.

Newegg's CPU pricing is lower than whole sale. I can't touch Intel CPU's from my whole salers(Ingram and Tech Data) for anywhere near Newegg's prices, same with ram.

No one has a good explanation why but obviously Intel blows out processors to high volume dealers like Newegg, Apple, HP, etc.

The Xeon 3440 is $236 retail but I can get a HP server with that, ram, HD, case, PS, etc for about double that amount.

There is a reason Dell/Intel just settled for some behind the scenes hanky panky a few weeks ago.

[dagomike]

refresh my memory...

HT is most beneficial for multi-core aware apps that aren't fully utilizing the physical cores. Right?

So, like doing video transcoding/compressing, it's probably not going to matter if all four cores are being utilized. What would be an real world example of HT in action? Just OS tasks + multiple apps?

[lilcosco08]

Yes, because everybody knows that apple makes the processors

Not by any means Intel

[TMRaven]

refresh my memory...

HT is most beneficial for multi-core aware apps that aren't fully utilizing the physical cores. Right?

So, like doing video transcoding/compressing, it's probably not going to matter if all four cores are being utilized. What would be an real world example of HT in action? Just OS tasks + multiple apps?

No, it's more like "hyper threading is beneficial when an app is multi-core aware."

There is no coding for hyperthreading or not. It's just coding for a number of cores, or have the program auto-detect and use as many cores as possible. A lot of video encoding programs like handbrake and avidemux autodetect the cores. Hyperthreading is just the cpu emulating twice the amount of its physical cores. So, if the program can use up to 8 physical cores, then it will use an i7's hyperthreading. If a program can use only 4 cores, it will not use the i7's hyperthreading.

[dwd3885]

what is the point of this thread? Intel makes a quad i5 that doesn't support hyperthreading, but has 4 cores. This is better than the i3 or the dual i5, but not as good as the i7. This is how things work. You don't make 4 processors with the same level of power and charge more for each one.

[dwd3885]

refresh my memory...

HT is most beneficial for multi-core aware apps that aren't fully utilizing the physical cores. Right?

So, like doing video transcoding/compressing, it's probably not going to matter if all four cores are being utilized. What would be an real world example of HT in action? Just OS tasks + multiple apps?

All I know is that the i7 does things faster than the i5. I assume this is because of the HT. I use iStat Menu and when I am ripping something, or exporting video, etc, I see that 8 cores are in use (4 physical and 4 virtual).

[Horus]

Because Apple is pure evil.. Not really, but when it comes to making money it sure seems like it. They gimped the quad core i5 so that people will spend the extra 200 dollars for the i7. I wonder how much it cost them for the i7 processor compared to the i5?

Were you high?

[Hopsdaballa04]

Were you high?

No, of course Apple didn't gimp the processor itself. I should have said they offered a lame choice i.e, (i5) , which would make most people insist on spending the extra 200 dollars just to have the better processor.