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MacBytes
Nov 21, 2004, 11:53 AM
Category: Opinion/Interviews
Link: Mac crowd bashes Windows (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20041121125323)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

innervision
Nov 21, 2004, 11:58 AM
sun rises in the east, sets in the west, world takes notice

azdude
Nov 21, 2004, 12:24 PM
But the reason behind the growing support for Macs has less to do with Apple than with the failure of Microsoft's Windows operating system and Internet Explorer browser.


Not sure I agree with this. IE and Windows have been sucking lately, but I think Apple's been doing much more to help *themselves*.

- The retail stores!
- The iPod
- iBook, Powerbook, iMac (I see *zillions* on campus!!)
- Cram & Jam (again... Apple has a huge hold on college EDU sales, at my campus, at least)


Who knows... it's likely a combination of all these things, plus Windows & IE.

Fender2112
Nov 21, 2004, 02:11 PM
Is it me or did the article end rather abruptly? Anyhow I did find this statement to be quite profound:
Increasingly, Microsoft's products seem to reflect the arrogance and sloppiness that comes with being a virtual monopoly.

wrldwzrd89
Nov 21, 2004, 02:33 PM
This doesn't really seem newsworthy to me. I guess that's why it's on MacBytes. After all, Mac users have been bashing Windows (and Windows users bashing Macs) for as long as the two operating systems have been in existence.

Photorun
Nov 21, 2004, 03:56 PM
... meanwhile, water wet, film at 11.

wdlove
Nov 21, 2004, 05:25 PM
Certainly not surprising at all. A decades old theme.

Mudbug
Nov 21, 2004, 06:28 PM
sorry - there wasn't a whole lot of other stuff to put up today, so this got the green light. better than nothing, I thought... but I could have been wrong :)

Yvan256
Nov 21, 2004, 11:39 PM
Not sure I agree with this. IE and Windows have been sucking lately, but I think Apple's been doing much more to help *themselves*.

- The retail stores!
- The iPod
- iBook, Powerbook, iMac (I see *zillions* on campus!!)
- Cram & Jam (again... Apple has a huge hold on college EDU sales, at my campus, at least)


Who knows... it's likely a combination of all these things, plus Windows & IE.

1. Don't want to sound harsh, but what retail stores? (no, the world doesn't only revolve around the USA. Yes there is stores in other countries, but the TOTAL is under 5, so let's skip it).

2. I just wish there was more Macs that people could actually afford (where's that updated eMac already?) And stop telling me Macs have better value. In the end a lot of people buy the lowest cost computer. While Apple won't ever be able to sell 600$CAN computers (though we can still hope), they could at least price their stuff more aggressively (AIO is nice, but people aren't stupid to the point of not being to plug a monitor they *already have*). A lot of people also simply want a Mac for OS X, not for the uber-cool, snob class, nice-looking computer feeling. I'd take a beige box G5/OS X over an iMac x86/Windows any day. In fact, just sell us a damn G5 motherboard already! How's that for a low-cost, headless Mac? :D

3. it really *is* viruses, IE problems, windows stability/security... people are actually *looking* for alternative now (and linux ain't ready, no matter what the zealots want to believe)

winmacguy
Nov 22, 2004, 12:44 AM
might have been a quiet day but it certainly got the discussions going Mudbug.

Nermal
Nov 22, 2004, 01:01 AM
I'd take a beige box G5/OS X over an iMac x86/Windows any day. In fact, just sell us a damn G5 motherboard already! How's that for a low-cost, headless Mac? :D

Yes! Give us a G5 motherboard that can use normal video cards, and I'll be buying one of those instead of the Athlon 64 motherboard I'm getting next week.

thatwendigo
Nov 22, 2004, 01:35 AM
1. Don't want to sound harsh, but what retail stores? (no, the world doesn't only revolve around the USA. Yes there is stores in other countries, but the TOTAL is under 5, so let's skip it).

How about we put this into some kind of perspective that actually matters, then? The United States, as it's often remarked (even by me), has roughly two to three thirds of the wealth of the world locked up in less than a tenth of the population. In theory, that means that they have to get fewer people interested in order to make more money, and that they have less of a reason to appeal to the low-end market.

Also, though it may not affect your country, the retail stores do seem to correlate to Apple's increasing success. Retail revenues are increasing, after all.

2. I just wish there was more Macs that people could actually afford (where's that updated eMac already?) And stop telling me Macs have better value. In the end a lot of people buy the lowest cost computer.

Keep wishing, then, since Apple's already stated that they have no intention of trying to compete at a point lower than the eMac. For all intents and purposes, there's no reason to, either, since the machines that you're talking about are universally crippled in some way. I've been researching them on behalf of a friend who's looking to get a home PC, and when you look at them in retail channels, they almost always have RAM at least a generation back, integrated graphics, Celerons or Athlon XPs (not 64s), and other ridiculous cost-saving measures.

Dell and the other companies that release $499 computers online are doing it with intentionally crippled loss-leaders that you have to upgrade to make useful. Apple sells useful systems out of the box.

While Apple won't ever be able to sell 600$CAN computers (though we can still hope), they could at least price their stuff more aggressively (AIO is nice, but people aren't stupid to the point of not being to plug a monitor they *already have*).

Considering that CAD$600 is roughly US$500, Apple would be fools to try to hang in at that point. The hardware would be a joke, to the point that the people who already complain about underpowered macs actually having something to be whining about. Nevermind that the companies which sell machines at that point - Dell, Compaq, HP - are all propped up by some other venture and outside revenues from other sales and still using cheap and unreliable components.

Their equipment is aggressively priced, unless you're building your own hardware and ignorant or hateful enough to completely factor out things like research and design, warranties, support, distribution costs, and other factors that affect Apple more than most OEMs. After all, the vast majority of them just slap together parts from vendors, with little to no actual research on their consumer machines.

A lot of people also simply want a Mac for OS X, not for the uber-cool, snob class, nice-looking computer feeling. I'd take a beige box G5/OS X over an iMac x86/Windows any day. In fact, just sell us a damn G5 motherboard already! How's that for a low-cost, headless Mac? :D

Stupid, in fact.

Part of the Apple experience is the control that they have over the hardware, and the more that's opened up, the less of it they have. This was plain to see when the cloners had to start adding third-party drivers to their hardware, which was the only way they could cut under Apple's costs. The PowerPC is just a more expensive platform in general and people need to learn to deal with that. Quality costs on both sides of the fence, but it costs a bit more (until you get to the high end) on ours. The cost of entry is higher, but you get more for it, and that's just the way it is.

thatwendigo
Nov 22, 2004, 01:41 AM
Yes! Give us a G5 motherboard that can use normal video cards, and I'll be buying one of those instead of the Athlon 64 motherboard I'm getting next week.

"If you give me eighteen G5s in a laptop tommorrow, I'd buy one."

Apple's choice of processor make it basically impossible for you to see x86 graphics cards in use without a change in the BIOS on the card. What you want them to do isn't going to happen, so you might as well go buy your Athlon 64.

Nermal
Nov 22, 2004, 01:55 AM
Apple's choice of processor make it basically impossible for you to see x86 graphics cards in use without a change in the BIOS on the card.

Why is it that other PowerPC boards like the Pegasos can use regular Radeons? I don't think the problem lies with the processor.

thatwendigo
Nov 22, 2004, 02:19 AM
Why is it that other PowerPC boards like the Pegasos can use regular Radeons? I don't think the problem lies with the processor.

Evidence, please.

I did a search and the only things I'm finding are that older cards like the Radeon 9200 and 7500 worked on the PegasosI board. There's increasing evidence that PegasosII doesn't do it, and that they don't get full functionality from the cards.

Also, please explain the fact that Pegasos machines are more expensive than comparable macs. I started a thread on this before, but it's still true.

Santaduck
Nov 22, 2004, 02:30 AM
title is a bit off... it was a linux crowd as well...

and what would happen if an intel-compatible OS X was released... in this business universe it's not so much the pro-apple vibe as the anti-XP vibe that is stronger (despite the ipod mania).

thatwendigo
Nov 22, 2004, 02:38 AM
and what would happen if an intel-compatible OS X was released... in this business universe it's not so much the pro-apple vibe as the anti-XP vibe that is stronger (despite the ipod mania).

The death of Apple, that's what. When they were allowing clones, in a much smaller and less piracy-ridden market, Apple lost roughly 35% of their revenue in one year without growing their market share at all. It cannibalized their normal business and made them less money, which would no doubt happen again if they tried it.

Apple would have to sell a ridiculously expensive OS X that nobody would buy, or sell more than 5-6 million copies per quarter in order to make up for their hardware sales. Just as a note, not even Microsoft sells 5 million copies of Windows in a quarter.

combatcolin
Nov 22, 2004, 02:52 AM
"If you give me eighteen G5s in a laptop tommorrow, I'd buy one."

Apple's choice of processor make it basically impossible for you to see x86 graphics cards in use without a change in the BIOS on the card. What you want them to do isn't going to happen, so you might as well go buy your Athlon 64.


The new Amiga MBs use PC standard AGP cards.

Theres a chip on the MB that "tricks" the card into thinking its talking to a PC.
This is done with no performance hits to either the CPU, MB or graphic card.

So if a company that shares some of Apples innovation but has bugger all of the of Apple can do it?....

wrldwzrd89
Nov 22, 2004, 04:39 AM
Evidence, please.

I did a search and the only things I'm finding are that older cards like the Radeon 9200 and 7500 worked on the PegasosI board. There's increasing evidence that PegasosII doesn't do it, and that they don't get full functionality from the cards.

Also, please explain the fact that Pegasos machines are more expensive than comparable macs. I started a thread on this before, but it's still true.
Open Firmware is to blame for the reason Apple Macs can't use the regular video cards. Odds are that the PegasosI board has a standard PC BIOS in it, which is why it works with regular video cards.

rjwill246
Nov 22, 2004, 07:03 AM
How about we put this into some kind of perspective that actually matters, then?

About as good a reply as anyone should need. Well done!

Qunchuy
Nov 22, 2004, 09:40 AM
Dell and the other companies that release $499 computers online are doing it with intentionally crippled loss-leaders that you have to upgrade to make useful. Apple sells useful systems out of the box.
Counterpoint: Apple's "out of the box" systems become a whole lot more usable after being upgraded with more memory. I don't think one can reasonably argue that they're intentionally crippled or that they're loss-leaders, though.

thatwendigo
Nov 22, 2004, 01:04 PM
Open Firmware is to blame for the reason Apple Macs can't use the regular video cards. Odds are that the PegasosI board has a standard PC BIOS in it, which is why it works with regular video cards.

OpenFirmware's official website says that you're wrong. (http://playground.sun.com/1275/home.html)

Among Open Firmware's many features, it provides a machine independent device interface, which can be used to boot plug-in cards without providing OS-specific and/or machine dependent binary programs on the plug-in card. This feature enables plug-in card manufacturers to easily support several independent computer architectures without needing to supply different firmware for each one.

Open Firmware is based on Sun Microsystem's OpenBoot 2.x implementations and complies with ANS (ANSI) Forth. (Information on ANS Forth is provided courtesy of Athena Programming, Inc.) You can also get additional information about Forth and the Forth Interest Group on the World Wide Web at Forth Interest Group Home Page.

The onus is on the card manufacturers, not Apple or the other users of OpenFirmware, who have an easily accessed, transparent, modern standard that would allow their products to be used. They can hardly be blamed if the video card manufacturers are more interested in optimizing for x86 and the DirectX APIs.

thatwendigo
Nov 22, 2004, 01:07 PM
Counterpoint: Apple's "out of the box" systems become a whole lot more usable after being upgraded with more memory. I don't think one can reasonably argue that they're intentionally crippled or that they're loss-leaders, though.

Apple also doesn't sell desktops with PC2700 RAM, CD-ROMs, integrated graphics, and other intentionally misleading "features." Dell, just to pick on the most obvious one, used to run a commercial (as recently as two weeks ago) that advertised a $499 computer and said that "Dell PCs use Intel Pentium 4 processors." However, the machine that costs $499 was a Celeron D and not a Pentium 4, hence a loss leader. It's meant to catch your attention and then make you upgrade to something usable.

The fact that RAM makes a mac better doesn't negate the fact that it's a good computer out of the box. The baseline Dell PC is worthless without upgrades in both software and hardware.

wrldwzrd89
Nov 22, 2004, 03:11 PM
OpenFirmware's official website says that you're wrong. (http://playground.sun.com/1275/home.html)

Among Open Firmware's many features, it provides a machine independent device interface, which can be used to boot plug-in cards without providing OS-specific and/or machine dependent binary programs on the plug-in card. This feature enables plug-in card manufacturers to easily support several independent computer architectures without needing to supply different firmware for each one.

Open Firmware is based on Sun Microsystem's OpenBoot 2.x implementations and complies with ANS (ANSI) Forth. (Information on ANS Forth is provided courtesy of Athena Programming, Inc.) You can also get additional information about Forth and the Forth Interest Group on the World Wide Web at Forth Interest Group Home Page.

The onus is on the card manufacturers, not Apple or the other users of OpenFirmware, who have an easily accessed, transparent, modern standard that would allow their products to be used. They can hardly be blamed if the video card manufacturers are more interested in optimizing for x86 and the DirectX APIs.
Thanks thatwendigo. I learn something new here every day I visit...

kerb
Nov 23, 2004, 07:36 AM
Case in point

I bought a 1.3 Ghz 12" PB a few months back for 1050 (cram and jam/edu discount).
This out of the box included the easiest ever OS to use, iLife 04, and a powerful computer in a small compact form.

My friend buys a 3Ghz-ish Pentium4 HT Toshiba Satellite laptop. 15", bulky, unwieldy, loud. Came out of the box with MORE RAM than mine and cost 900. More RAM and bigger screen? Faster processor? Well 2 weeks after being online, installing all the NECCESSARY virus scanners, spyware blockers etc. etc. his computer was at an absolute crawl. iTunes (credit to him he uses an iPod) took 45 seconds to load which a library of just over 1000 songs. I had to spend about an hour trying to perk it up by deleting an absolute crapload of stuff that was running in the background. It's bearable now but still slower than mine.

Can he carry his around? No, it's a big bulky beast.
Can I carry mine around? Yes, despite it being made of metal.

Windows machines are not cheap because they don't compete anywhere near the performance of Apple hardware and OS X. If anything they are very overpriced and need alot spending on them to keep them maintained.

Santaduck
Nov 23, 2004, 12:13 PM
Does the open firmware have implications as to game performance too? For example similar games on the highest end machines for mac & pc always are severely tilted in the PC's favor in terms of outright performance in frames per second. There are numerous reasons, but was wondering how OF is involved in this issue?

maya
Nov 24, 2004, 12:10 AM
Case in point

I bought a 1.3 Ghz 12" PB a few months back for 1050 (cram and jam/edu discount).
This out of the box included the easiest ever OS to use, iLife 04, and a powerful computer in a small compact form.

My friend buys a 3Ghz-ish Pentium4 HT Toshiba Satellite laptop. 15", bulky, unwieldy, loud. Came out of the box with MORE RAM than mine and cost 900. More RAM and bigger screen? Faster processor? Well 2 weeks after being online, installing all the NECCESSARY virus scanners, spyware blockers etc. etc. his computer was at an absolute crawl. iTunes (credit to him he uses an iPod) took 45 seconds to load which a library of just over 1000 songs. I had to spend about an hour trying to perk it up by deleting an absolute crapload of stuff that was running in the background. It's bearable now but still slower than mine.

Can he carry his around? No, it's a big bulky beast.
Can I carry mine around? Yes, despite it being made of metal.

Windows machines are not cheap because they don't compete anywhere near the performance of Apple hardware and OS X. If anything they are very overpriced and need alot spending on them to keep them maintained.

ROTF.as long as it sells right. :D

The major difference between a Mac and PC user is that Mac users see they computer as being able to do anything, and a PC users sees it as oh just an appliance to get the work done and cross fingers it all works 100% all the time. Till they have a problem and they call a Mac user to fix it since the Mac users never had a problem, unless if the Mac users had an unimportant problem the PC users will say and laugh out loud haha Mac's suck buy a PC or you should have saved yoru money and bought a Dull. :rolleyes:

PC belong in the work place, Mac belong at home for creative minds. :D

Want a gaming machine buy a console. ;)

Have too much time and hate life buy a PC, want to have fun and be creative buy a Mac. :D

maya
Nov 24, 2004, 12:16 AM
It seems most of the people only look at they $$$ when it comes to computing, forget that a Mac will last you a minimum of 4-6 years before upgrading (if not playing 3D shooters on it daily).

People also seem to have a jaded outlook that Apple is going to go out of business and that there is not GOOD SOFTWARE for the Mac, and in most cases its MORE EXPENSIVE for the Mac.

There are plenty of alternatives, people are lazy and laziness comes at a price. If you look around you can fine alternatives to MS Office (mainly used by PC users) and other application and then there is always VPC for the PC applications that they invested in.

It all comes down to $$$ as long as we don't have to think about the headache now it will save us money even though it will cost us in the end that mentality alone tells me only ~1.8% if market share are logical. :D

wrldwzrd89
Nov 24, 2004, 04:39 AM
It seems most of the people only look at they $$$ when it comes to computing, forget that a Mac will last you a minimum of 4-6 years before upgrading (if not playing 3D shooters on it daily).

People also seem to have a jaded outlook that Apple is going to go out of business and that there is not GOOD SOFTWARE for the Mac, and in most cases its MORE EXPENSIVE for the Mac.

There are plenty of alternatives, people are lazy and laziness comes at a price. If you look around you can fine alternatives to MS Office (mainly used by PC users) and other application and then there is always VPC for the PC applications that they invested in.

It all comes down to $$$ as long as we don't have to think about the headache now it will save us money even though it will cost us in the end that mentality alone tells me only ~1.8% if market share are logical. :D
I never would have thought that I could reasonably expect to keep the iMac G4 I have now for 4-6 years before replacing it - that means, since I bought it in 2004, it'll be due for replacement in 2008-2010. Will MacRumors Forums even be around that long? (The MacRumors Forums Calendar only goes up to 2006.) :D

What about my Windows PC? I also bought it in 2004 (check my website for the specifications of both computers). Unlike my Mac, my PC stays offline all the time, since all I need it for is music conversion (at least right now - I can always rebuild it if things change, since there isn't anything on that PC's hard drive that I can't recreate or isn't backed up on my Mac). Also, my file transfer speeds stink if I don't have the Mac and PC connected directly.