Equality between the sexes.

[Xtremehkr]

Link (http://nytimes.com/2004/11/23/business/23grope.html?hp&ex=1101272400&en=22271b2ad1e41f45&ei=5094&partner=homepage)

t a security checkpoint recently at the Fort Lauderdale airport, Patti LuPone, the singer and actress, recalled, she was instructed to remove articles of clothing. "I took off my belt; I took off my clogs; I took off my leather jacket," she said. "But when the screener said, 'Now take off your shirt,' I hesitated. I said, 'But I'll be exposed.' " When she persisted in her complaints, she said, she was barred from her flight.

Heather L. Maurer, a business executive from Washington, had a similar experience at Logan Airport in Boston recently. And a few weeks ago, Jenepher Field, 71, who walks with the aid of a cane, was subjected to a breast pat-down at the airport outside Kansas City, Mo.

These women and a good many others, both frequent and occasional travelers, say they are furious about recent changes in airport security that have increased both the number and the intensity of pat-downs at the nation's 450 commercial airports. And they are not keeping quiet.

In dozens of interviews, women across the country say they were humiliated by the searches, often done in view of other passengers, and many said they had sharply reduced their air travel as a result.

The new security policies on body searches were put into practice in mid-September, after a terrorist attack in Russia a few weeks before that destroyed two planes, killing 90 people. Two Chechen women were thought to have carried nonmetallic explosives onto the planes, officials said. It is not known whether the explosives were hidden in the women's clothing, or whether the women merely boarded unimpeded, carrying the explosives.

Is it really so much worse when a woman is patted down compared to a man? Really, in the supposed age of equality, why is it ok for men to be patted down and not women?

The feminist movement continues to push for womens rights, which is not a bad thing. But if there is no thought given to achieving a balance between the sexes will this not eventually lead to some problems somewhere down the line?

I am glad that the NYT have brought this issue to the forefront, but have they considered that men may not like it other but have accepted that for them it makes little difference as they are expected to deal with it and move on?

I don't like being patted down either, just my breasts aren't capable of delivering milk doesn't mean that I don't mind them being fondled by another man. What gives?

[zimv20]

i think what gives is that society views a women's breasts as sexual organs, but less so for a man. so to make the comparison equitable, asking a woman to strip down to her bra in public is like asking a man to drop his trousers.

on my most recent trip, i was struck by how much i was made to feel like a criminal just trying to get on a plane. arriving at chicago o'hare, i was even flagged for the red line at customs. i suspect it's either because i went into my checked bag to retrieve a jacket (it was cold in chicago), or because i drew suspicion for packing light, something on which a customs agent commented. looking at my over-the-shoulder carry-on, and my short but torso-sized backpack, which i'd checked, she actually said, "where's the rest of your luggage?"

guess that made me suspicious.

[Xtremehkr]

Well, nail clippers are dangerous weapons now. If exceptions were made for women, that is where I would try next. The security check doesn't stop at my chest though, that is not where men tend to stash things. And security isn't shy about checking down there either.

[blackfox]

Leaving the "equality" argument aside (at least for the moment), is there any word whether these "pat-downs" were done by men or by women? Was a decent attempt of having a woman made available to do these searches done? Were travelers made aware of these possibilities explicitly via notice of some sort?

The answer to these questions colors my opinion of the situation.

Tangentally, I often do not wear boxers and know many women who do not always wear bras...could prove interesting. I try to fly only when no other arrangements can be met. I have not checked luggage on a flight for over five years.

[zimv20]

i believe TSA rules stipulate same-gender patdown. certainly, that's consistent w/ what i've observed.

[blackfox]

i believe TSA rules stipulate same-gender patdown. certainly, that's consistent w/ what i've observed.
ahh...guess I should stop filling in my online TSA application...The felonies section looked problematic anyway...

zim, what are you doing up at almost 3:30 in the am? Just getting home drunky?

[zimv20]

zim, what are you doing up at almost 3:30 in the am? Just getting home drunky?
ah, i wish my excuse were that good. i stay up late anyway, but ever since i got back i've been unable to establish anything approaching normal. so i've been falling asleep around 6 am. and the last week, like tonight, i've been up late working on a play.

you'd help me immensely if you could point me to where i left my notes from when i was trying to learn cantonese. i'm trying to insert some of what i learned into the play. very frustrated right now.

[zimv20]

nevermind, found it. it was in a box in the basement.

[pseudobrit]

Tangentally, I often do not wear boxers.

Due to the subject matter, I read that particular word all wrong. {shudders}

[pseudobrit]

A woman's chest has upon it two major secondary sexual organs.

Men don't really have any such major characteristics that are so personal, unless you count our primary sexual organs.

Breasts are, pretty universally, sensual areas for a woman.

I can't wait until a woman complying with the TSA is detained for indecent exposure.

[wordmunger]

Leaving the "equality" argument aside (at least for the moment), is there any word whether these "pat-downs" were done by men or by women? Was a decent attempt of having a woman made available to do these searches done? Were travelers made aware of these possibilities explicitly via notice of some sort?

The NYT article quotes at least one woman who had to be patted down by a man. Women are allowed to request a female searcher (though apparently men can't request men), but locating a female may take time, and in the case of the woman in the article, it was get searched by a man or miss her flight.

[Xtremehkr]

A woman's chest has upon it two major secondary sexual organs.

Men don't really have any such major characteristics that are so personal, unless you count our primary sexual organs.

Breasts are, pretty universally, sensual areas for a woman.

I can't wait until a woman complying with the TSA is detained for indecent exposure.

I don't know if they are sexual 'organs' PB, but they are sexually related. Kinda like how women like to check out a mans butt, but apart from being attractive, the butt really has no other sexual function, for a woman.

I believe that nipples are universally sensitive. But it is still kind of missing the point. There is an established double standard that is inherently unequal to men and yet a major newspaper would not consider touching upon that because it is not what is important to society. Men pretty much have to accepted what is decreed with little thought to how they feel about the situation.

[pseudobrit]

There is an established double standard that is inherently unequal

Men and women are inherently unequal.

[Xtremehkr]

Men and women are inherently unequal.

how so?

[zimv20]

how so?
mostly in the naughty bits, which is the subject of this thread. and then there's that whole XX/XY thing.

though i might have chosen the word 'different' over 'unequal'.

[Xtremehkr]

mostly in the naughty bits, which is the subject of this thread. and then there's that whole XX/XY thing.

though i might have chosen the word 'different' over 'unequal'.

I think in the case of airport security, terrorism is an equalizer. Breasts have become highly sexualized parts of the female anatomy. In other cultures though women don't see the need to even cover them, even European women feel comfortable being topless at the beach.

Only in America are we so very sensitive it seems.

[skunk]

I think in the case of airport security, terrorism is an equalizer. Breasts have become highly sexualized parts of the female anatomy. In other cultures though women don't see the need to even cover them, even European women feel comfortable being topless at the beach.

Only in America are we so very sensitive it seems.
I don't think so. Your binoculars are set on a very narrow field.

[scem0]

I don't think so. Your binoculars are set on a very narrow field.

on the contrary. You see upper body, female nudity all the time all over the world.

scem0

[skunk]

You wish. Still a comparative rarity, and then only in Europe (and some parts of Africa where people are much less likely to be taking regular flights...)

[scem0]

Well, I didn't mean so much nude beach, or walking through the street nude.

I think women from most other countries in the wold would be much more willing to show their breasts for art of some kind than women in the US.

It just isn't as big of a deal.

scem0

[pseudobrit]

Well, I didn't mean so much nude beach, or walking through the street nude.

I think women from most other countries in the wold would be much more willing to show their breasts for art of some kind than women in the US.

It just isn't as big of a deal.

scem0

Will anyone make the claim that in any culture they've visited, women walking around the streets without a shirt on was an accepted and normal thing?

Now, who here has seen a man walking down the street or playing basketball with his shirt off?

Okay, now that we have zero votes for the former question and about everyone for the latter, I think we can make some conclusions.

A man being told to strip shirtless in a security checkpoint is nowhere near as degrading as a woman being told to because of the specific cultural implications (privately sexual) that women's breasts carry.

[Xtremehkr]

So we should not even consider searching women because they are offended and run the risk of women being used for the purpose of blowing up planes? Potentially killing hundreds or even thousands of people?

[pseudobrit]

So we should not even consider searching women because they are offended

Who said anything about searching them? We're talking about a woman being forced to take her top off in public or be felt up by a man.

[Savage Henry]

So we should not even consider searching women because they are offended and run the risk of women being used for the purpose of blowing up planes? Potentially killing hundreds or even thousands of people?

So you wouldn't object to a full body cavity examination to see how much semtex you are packing up there every time you step on a plane? In fact, I think you should insist on having it done, and lead by example.

[pseudobrit]

So you wouldn't object to a full body cavity examination to see how much semtex you are packing up there every time you step on a plane? In fact, I think you should insist on having it done, and lead by example.

Now that's a little extreme.

It's more like having your pants dropped and you balls checked while the crowd looks on.

You could be hiding something under that sack!

[Savage Henry]

It's more like having your pants dropped and you balls checked while the crowd looks on.

You could be hiding something under that sack!

If that happened to me, I'd certainly decline and face the judicial penalty, but they'll never make it stand up in court ......


[Old Jokes Revisited: no 53 .... sorry]

[Xtremehkr]

If that happened to me, I'd certainly decline and face the judicial penalty, but they'll never make it stand up in court ......


[Old Jokes Revisited: no 53 .... sorry]

The story, the story, this is in regards to the story. Turns out this is quite the taboo subject.