MacPro vs Dell Workstation

[masmullin]

Canadian Site: Canadian Prices
All computers include the basic 3 years extended warranty

Quad Core:
Mac Pro (base + 6GB ram): $3138
Dell Workstation: $2194
==Difference: $944
*Specs*
PROCESSOR Quad Core Intel® Xeon® W3530 2.80GHz, 8M L3, 4.8GT/s
OS Genuine Windows® 7 Ultimate, with Media, 64-bit, English
MEMORY 6GB, 1066MHz, DDR3 SDRAM, ECC (3 DIMMS)
CHASSIS CONFIGURATION Mini-Tower Chassis Configuration w/ 1394 Card
HARD DRIVE 1TB SATA 3.0Gb/s,7200 RPM Hard Drive with 32MB DataBurst
OPTICAL DRIVE 16X DVD+/-RW w/ Cyberlink PowerDVD™/Roxio Creator™
GRAPHICS CARD 1GB ATI FirePro V4800, Triple MON, 2 DP & 1 DVI
FLOPPY DRIVE & MEDIA READER No Floppy Drive and No Media Card Reader
RESOURCE DVD Resource DVD - contains Diagnostics and Drivers

Six Core:
Mac Pro (base + 6GB ram): $4428
Dell Workstation: $3864 (as above but with the W3680 3.33GHz 6 core proc)
==Difference: $564

Eight Core:
Mac Pro (base): $3898
Dell Workstation: $4234
==Difference: -$336
Dell specs are for the T7500, similar setup to above but with the E5620 chip and the ram moved to 6 1Gig DIMM

Twelve Core:
Mac Pro (base): $5498
Dell Workstation: $6504 (same as 8 core but with X5650)
==Difference: -$1006

Twelve Core high end:
Mac Pro (base + 2.93GHz): 6798
Dell Workstation: 7974 (as above but with X5670)
==Difference: -$1176

Conclusions:
Apple is targeting the higher performance market at the expense of the "prosumer." The 4core model is extremely overpriced as compared to their top of the line products which are extremely inexpensive compared to the competition.

[Chupa Chupa]

Does the Dell run OS X? Will it have any resale value in 4 years like the MP likely will? Will it require less support than the MP?

Long term the MP is the better value.

[Ravich]

*woosh*

point goes over head

[masmullin]

Does the Dell run OS X? Will it have any resale value in 4 years like the MP likely will? Will it require less support than the MP?

Long term the MP is the better value.

Lets forget about anything other than the 4core machine... the 6-12 cores are all in Apple's favor. (also forgetting that the dell will be much easier to upgrade as you can use stock graphics cards)

I would expect that in 4 years 4core MP will run say $800-1200 in 4 years while the dell will run $400-700. So we are looking at a gain of 400-500 on the mac side for long term value.

The dell runs Win7 which is a very decent operating system. While many people prefer osx, im not sure its value is $400 ABOVE win7 (ie its value is $600 total... win7 costs say $200) to most people.

[supercooled]

Lets forget about anything other than the 4core machine... the 6-12 cores are all in Apple's favor. (also forgetting that the dell will be much easier to upgrade as you can use stock graphics cards)

I would expect that in 4 years 4core MP will run say $800-1200 in 4 years while the dell will run $400-700. So we are looking at a gain of 400-500 on the mac side for long term value.

The dell runs Win7 which is a very decent operating system. While many people prefer osx, im not sure its value is $400 ABOVE win7 (ie its value is $600 total... win7 costs say $200) to most people.

It's a fools errand to have these threads especially on a Mac's own stomping ground. Some would say OSX is priceless, invaluable, et al. I haven't used Win7 much but I do like it. The last OS I used was XP and switched just as Vista was beginning to get released.

Anyway, when I bought my MP 2.8 which were I guess the middle configuration for $3,200 it was purely an indulgence. I've always built my own machines and I could always do it under a $1500 budget. Having to see Apple gradually increase their price of their workstations, I guess upgrading won't be in my near future. The value is still in the iMacs.

[Major Reeves]

Does the Dell run OS X? Will it have any resale value in 4 years like the MP likely will? Will it require less support than the MP?

Long term the MP is the better value.

Not only that, but the build quality of the dell precision workstations is kind of sad and don't get me started about their cooling efficiency and motherboard circuit printing.

[nanofrog]

Not only that, but the build quality of the dell precision workstations is kind of sad and don't get me started about their cooling efficiency and motherboard circuit printing.
What models are you talking about?

Just curious, as I've not seen many failures for their workstations. The cases could be nicer, but they're far more about functionality than appearance (costs are tighter too for this component). Cooling is usually sufficient (usually user changes with poor cable routing causes most of the problems from what I've seen). The consumer systems far more often, but it's not a fair comparison.

[Gonk42]

Not only that, but the build quality of the dell precision workstations is kind of sad and don't get me started about their cooling efficiency and motherboard circuit printing.

I have a Dell T5500 and it is very solidly built. Since Dell provides 3 years on-site warranty as standard it is not in their interest to make things in too shoddy a fashion.

On the heating side, the 2009 Pro had a lot of issues (according to these and other forums). Having said that, I was a little concerned with the temperatures of my processors being unbalanced (90C and 70C on 100% load) but after upgrading the heatsink of the main board one (which was only aluminium) via Dell (for around £30) the temperatures are both 80C under load which is fine.

The resale value of the Mac Pros is just an indication that Apple maintains high new prices. If they ever have a change of policy the second hand price will drop. It seems a strange argument to say that Mac Pros are better long term value because the resale value is high because the new prices are high.

[linuxcooldude]

The resale value of the Mac Pros is just an indication that Apple maintains high new prices. If they ever have a change of policy the second hand price will drop. It seems a strange argument to say that Mac Pros are better long term value because the resale value is high because the new prices are high.

Could be a higher demand for used mac pro's which drives the prices higher. I'm guessing resale value for PC workstations to be higher also then compared to their consumer PC's.

[jeanlain]

It's interesting to compare the price differences across configurations. Personally, I would have preferred if the low-end Mac Pro were cheaper than the Dell workstation, not the other way around.

[nanofrog]

It's interesting to compare the price differences across configurations. Personally, I would have preferred if the low-end Mac Pro were cheaper than the Dell workstation, not the other way around.
What some may not realize, is that if you pick up the phone to get pricing from Dell, it tends to be cheaper than the web pricing. :eek: HP and other PC vendors are the same way for their enterprise gear (sometimes consumer as well). ;)

So those price differences posted by masmullin could easily change as a result.

[npropes]

What some may not realize, is that if you pick up the phone to get pricing from Dell, it tends to be cheaper than the web pricing. :eek: HP and other PC vendors are the same way for their enterprise gear (sometimes consumer as well). ;)

So those price differences posted by masmullin could easily change as a result.

If you go through Dell's business unit, you can generally knock 10-20% off their web pricing. They also run many specials for their professional line computers.

Whether you want to go with a Mac Pro or a Dell would depend on many more factors than price. If you're going to be doing heavy 3D CAD/CAE work, then the Dell might be a better option since you have many more workstation class graphics card option available. If you're a photographer or working with printed media, then the Mac Pro would be better.

Also Dell provides on-site support for their workstation class machines which Apple does not. If you are supporting yourself through the use of your computer, then next day on site support can be a life saver.

Price isn't the only thing to look at when purchasing hardware. That becomes even more apparent if you're supporting yourself and your family through the use of your computer. If you're buying the machine for personal non-income generating use, then you would want to go with the cheaper option. If you're going to be making money with the machine, then you need to look at support options.

[talmy]

I don't know how things have changed in recent years, but I've got pictures of the insides of a Dell Precision Workstation 650 (dual Xeons, RAIDed SCSI drives running Red Hat Linux) I took in 2004 and a Dell Precision Workstation 380 (Pentium 4 running Windows XP) I took in 2006. Pretty messy but I never had any problems with them. The 650 was $8000 in its day.

Precision Workstation 650 (http://almy.us/p650.html)
Precision Workstation 380 (http://almy.us/p380.html)

[nanofrog]

If you go through Dell's business unit, you can generally knock 10-20% off their web pricing. They also run many specials for their professional line computers.
I know (have a business account with them), and they've always transferred me to the correct section, and I didn't think to mention it. :o

Good call on this one. :)

Whether you want to go with a Mac Pro or a Dell would depend on many more factors than price. If you're going to be doing heavy 3D CAD/CAE work, then the Dell might be a better option since you have many more workstation class graphics card option available. If you're a photographer or working with printed media, then the Mac Pro would be better.

Also Dell provides on-site support for their workstation class machines which Apple does not. If you are supporting yourself through the use of your computer, then next day on site support can be a life saver.
Options and particularly support are much better than Apple. Having to physically haul a MP into an Apple Store is a joke for an enterprise grade system IMO.

Price isn't the only thing to look at when purchasing hardware. That becomes even more apparent if you're supporting yourself and your family through the use of your computer. If you're buying the machine for personal non-income generating use, then you would want to go with the cheaper option. If you're going to be making money with the machine, then you need to look at support options.
Definitely (posted on this many times).

Validated hardware is another (i.e. specific professional applications operating properly with the hardware in the system, such as CAD/CAM suites with graphics cards).

I don't know how things have changed in recent years, but I've got pictures of the insides of a Dell Precision Workstation 650 (dual Xeons, RAIDed SCSI drives running Red Hat Linux) I took in 2004 and a Dell Precision Workstation 380 (Pentium 4 running Windows XP) I took in 2006. Pretty messy but I never had any problems with them. The 650 was $8000 in its day.

Precision Workstation 650 (http://almy.us/p650.html)
Precision Workstation 380 (http://almy.us/p380.html)
The swing out panel cases were messy (drives mounted to the panel). I presume they did away with them for that reason. But the airflow over the CPU is decent (cables not in the way of airflow in this area).

I've also notices variances over the years (even in the same systems). The only thing that makes sense is skill of the assembler and/or time constraints (i.e. large order quantity, and rushed to get them assembled, so shortcuts may have been taken).

But overall, it's not bad, and has improved since those systems IMO (newer tech helped; the cables got smaller, such as SATA/SAS for example).

[jmggs]

I have been a happy user of a 2006 mac pro until i need to do upgrades. with the idea of the most upgradable mac i was confident.

So i need a better graphics card, my 7600GT wasn't cutting any more. so after some search nome of actual video cards was available. because i bought a 64bit mac pro with an 32bit EFI!!!! what no updates to bios!!! and the new graphics cards don't work because apple don't want. an artificial limitation! if i put a PC graphics card i can use any one and i have to use the windows! Blame apple and their mac pro.

So needing more power i have sell my mac pro and i have built a PC workstation with i7 CPU, Intel Motherboard and Nvidia Quadro cards windows 7 64bit pro and i am happy.

For now i only recommend the mac pro for people that really need to use apple apps with power. if use avid or adobe apps get a PC.

I love apple and i have many macs, for now only laptops and ipod and so on.. mac pro is too expensive for that limitations...its a $2500 or more for a computer! At work i have 15 HP workstation they are great and they are speedy and rock solid. they only have windows and avid.

[Garamond]

I have been a happy user of a 2006 mac pro until i need to do upgrades. with the idea of the most upgradable mac i was confident.

So i need a better graphics card, my 7600GT wasn't cutting any more. so after some search nome of actual video cards was available. because i bought a 64bit mac pro with an 32bit EFI!!!! what no updates to bios!!! and the new graphics cards don't work because apple don't want. an artificial limitation! if i put a PC graphics card i can use any one and i have to use the windows! Blame apple and their mac pro.

So needing more power i have sell my mac pro and i have built a PC workstation with i7 CPU, Intel Motherboard and Nvidia Quadro cards windows 7 64bit pro and i am happy.

For now i only recommend the mac pro for people that really need to use apple apps with power. if use avid or adobe apps get a PC.

I love apple and i have many macs, for now only laptops and ipod and so on.. mac pro is too expensive for that limitations...its a $2500 or more for a computer! At work i have 15 HP workstation they are great and they are speedy and rock solid. they only have windows and avid.
It's not easy to jump ship when you have software licenses into the thousands that you also have to renew into PC versions.

[khollister]

I have been a happy user of a 2006 mac pro until i need to do upgrades. with the idea of the most upgradable mac i was confident.

So i need a better graphics card, my 7600GT wasn't cutting any more. so after some search nome of actual video cards was available. because i bought a 64bit mac pro with an 32bit EFI!!!! what no updates to bios!!! and the new graphics cards don't work because apple don't want. an artificial limitation! if i put a PC graphics card i can use any one and i have to use the windows! Blame apple and their mac pro.

So needing more power i have sell my mac pro and i have built a PC workstation with i7 CPU, Intel Motherboard and Nvidia Quadro cards windows 7 64bit pro and i am happy.

For now i only recommend the mac pro for people that really need to use apple apps with power. if use avid or adobe apps get a PC.

I love apple and i have many macs, for now only laptops and ipod and so on.. mac pro is too expensive for that limitations...its a $2500 or more for a computer! At work i have 15 HP workstation they are great and they are speedy and rock solid. they only have windows and avid.

Uh, you do realize the ATI 5770 and 5870 do work in the 2006 MP's regardless of what Apple says? Just look a couple threads above this one for at least one person using the 5870 in older MP's.

[J the Ninja]

About the on-site thing....don't plenty of Apple Authorized Repair places offer on-site support? Do they bill Apple for the whole trip if it is a warranty job?

[toxic]

honestly, I think the support Dell and HP offer is worth the extra expense, or at least most of it, on the higher end models, if you need to use Windows software regularly. not to mention the options you have for workstation graphic cards if you need to use any Windows-only software. MP's only have the FX 4800 and maybe the 4000.

[mBox]

Just put together a Dell T3500 as close to the lowest Mac Pro and the diff is 500 CAD. I'm impressed that the Mac is close :)

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

People have commented on the pricing of the Mac Pro 4-core in previous threads also. I would suggest looking at the iMac for a mid-range system. The 8-core seems to be the best deal for the buck in a Mac Pro.

As for the other issue -- for me, MacOS X is definitely worth paying a hardware premium for compared to Windows 7. But even more than that, it avoids the whole Windows XP software "ecosystem" (biologically speaking, XP makes me think of slime molds-- fascinating, but, not appetizing).

[mBox]

It's not easy to jump ship when you have software licenses into the thousands that you also have to renew into PC versions.
Some licenses but Adobe is cross platform.

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

honestly, I think the support Dell and HP offer is worth the extra expense, or at least most of it, on the higher end models, if you need to use Windows software regularly. not to mention the options you have for workstation graphic cards if you need to use any Windows-only software. MP's only have the FX 4800 and maybe the 4000.

I have a nine-year-old Dell server that I still use from time to time (running Linux), but, mid-decade, I started to hear complaints. Not sure how things stand today.

Any suggestions on particular HP or Dell models that people respect as being rugged and reliable?

[mBox]

I have a nine-year-old Dell server that I still use from time to time (running Linux), but, mid-decade, I started to hear complaints. Not sure how things stand today.

Any suggestions on particular HP or Dell models that people respect as being rugged and reliable?
We just had a bout with enterprise support from Dell. It was terrible felt bad for the tech that had to visit four times to tend to a dead motherboard.
In the end they just replaced a 4 year old workstation with a new one.
I guess I got a good deal but no more warranty on that replacement.
Were done with Dell for good.

[khollister]

About the on-site thing....don't plenty of Apple Authorized Repair places offer on-site support? Do they bill Apple for the whole trip if it is a warranty job?

If you purchase AppleCare, there is an option for on-site service for desktop computers (iMac and Mac Pro).

If you need/want to run Windows-only stuff like ProE, IDEAS, 3DMax that needs specific high-end graphics cards, then get a Dell or HP. If you like OS X and run creative apps, get a MP.

By and large, most of the complaining about graphics cards I see in various forums aren't from professionals running CAD/CAM or 3D visualization software, but gamers. Nothing wrong with playing games, but casting the argument as "Mac Pros don't have high end pro graphics" when a lot of the stuff that really needs that type of card doesn't even run on OS X, is a bit suspect.

Lets be honest - the Apple universe has been oriented around entertainment and the creative arts almost from the beginning. If you need to run heavyweight scientific/engineering applications, you are likely to be forced into Windows or another UNIX anyway, cost of a Dell vs Mac aside.

And I don't recall seeing any Dell or HP remotely close to a MP price that was designed like a Mac Pro from a packaging standpoint. I've seen servers that weren't that elegant inside.

[nanofrog]

In the end they just replaced a 4 year old workstation with a new one.
I guess I got a good deal but no more warranty on that replacement.
Were done with Dell for good.
Unfortunately, the warranty support is usually provide by a separate company (contract between the vendor and provider company), then they find a sub-contractor to handle the work when the service order comes in. They may also provide the phone support, but that can also be yet another separate company (not sure if Dell has gone to outsourcing that or not, but HP did last I knew).

It can be a mess (poor communication, as in nothing but a work order), between Tech Support provider and the person actually doing the work. Worst yet, those poor guys aren't paid well, if at all (check out the complaints of Barrister Global International, and you should get a clue as to how it all works, and how the contractors get screwed).

That's not to say that some of the actual work providers aren't that good (ham fisted morons that break things during assembly/dis-assembly for example or aren't fully qualified to do the job), but most are caught in the middle, and really will try to do the best job they can (sounds like what happened in your situation).

By and large, most of the complaining about graphics cards I see in various forums aren't from professionals running CAD/CAM or 3D visualization software, but gamers. Nothing wrong with playing games, but casting the argument as "Mac Pros don't have high end pro graphics" when a lot of the stuff that really needs that type of card doesn't even run on OS X, is a bit suspect.
I'm not aware of much in the way of OS X software that's even designed to run with professional graphics cards, so that's a problem for the pros as I see it (might want to use pro graphics, but what's the point if the software won't utilize the card if they buy it?).

Lets be honest - the Apple universe has been oriented around entertainment and the creative arts almost from the beginning. If you need to run heavyweight scientific/engineering applications, you are likely to be forced into Windows or another UNIX anyway, cost of a Dell vs Mac aside.
For the most part, definitely. But there seems to be some out there on the OS X side (i.e. medical imaging, and life sciences; even seen vendors with such things as OS X based Electronics Design Automation software as well).

But it is a small % of MP users AFAIK.

And I don't recall seeing any Dell or HP remotely close to a MP price that was designed like a Mac Pro from a packaging standpoint. I've seen servers that weren't that elegant inside.
The internals have been different from model to model for years. Some have been decent, some crap (could even be influenced by say it's Monday morning, and the assembly line person was hung over type of thing).

But so long as the airflow isn't impeded (fully complies with specifications, and works as it should), other aspects may be more important (IT staff that know how to deal with the smallest or strangest issue, performance, and options for example).

To me, it comes down to the best fit for the usage (hardware + software; support, operations, training, software licensing, and equipment costs taken into account as well).

[Buildbright]

Do not forget the $700 raid card if you need it.

[Honbe]

My company (CAD for automotive with Catia and Unigraphics NX) has about 70 Dell workstations and complete server infrastructure. Server infrastructure has been more or less OK, if not, 4hrs service did the magic.
On the other side the workstations line has been and is a disaster. So many service visits (NBD) during the first three years. After three years, the hardware has been falling apart (motherboards, graphic cards, etc.). It almost seems they build it to last exactly three years. The resale value after three years is very low.
Now the question is, what are the other choices. We cannot use Mac Pros, many other workstation manufacturers are out of game. As we have to use certified WSs for each particular CAD system, the remaining choices are either IBM or HP.

Back to your question: go with Dell in case you will purchase new WS after max. three years. That means if you know that your future needs will request to purchase a new WS in this time frame AND if you can live without OSX. Otherwise the Mac Pro is still better build quality and will keep higher resale value.

[mBox]

Back to your question: go with Dell in case you will purchase new WS after max. three years. That means if you know that your future needs will request to purchase a new WS in this time frame AND if you can live without OSX. Otherwise the Mac Pro is still better build quality and will keep higher resale value.I would consider BOXX Technology. We've had 2 last as long as 4 years now the recent still going strong in its 4th.
Were done with Dell and honestly a Mac Pro Boot Camped would last longer.
You might run into some Boot Camp issues during OS updates but still the computer lasts wayyyy longer than most.
Still using G5s and earliest Mac Pro for everything else at work.
Never had a mother board issue just display card, RAM, HD and optical.

[nanofrog]

Do not forget the $700 raid card if you need it.
Guys, I hope you realize this thread is almost a year old. :eek: :p

I would consider BOXX Technology.
Looks like a good vendor (not too keen on the OC'ed, water cooled bit on one of them), but it might not be on the Qualified Systems Lists of the software they're using (haven't looked into it further, so I'm just mentioning this).

As far as appearance, it reminds me of the now defunct Sun Ultra 27 (http://www.kev009.com/wp/2009/12/sun-ultra-27-review-the-ultimate-linux-workstation/) (thank's Oracle... :rolleyes: :mad:).

My company (CAD for automotive with Catia and Unigraphics NX) has about 70 Dell workstations and complete server infrastructure. Server infrastructure has been more or less OK, if not, 4hrs service did the magic.
On the other side the workstations line has been and is a disaster. So many service visits (NBD) during the first three years. After three years, the hardware has been falling apart (motherboards, graphic cards, etc.). It almost seems they build it to last exactly three years. The resale value after three years is very low.
Now the question is, what are the other choices. We cannot use Mac Pros, many other workstation manufacturers are out of game. As we have to use certified WSs for each particular CAD system, the remaining choices are either IBM or HP.
You can thank the fact they're using ODM's for workstations, just as they do the consumer systems. Yay. :rolleyes: :mad: :(

If it's between Dell and HP for workstations, go with HP. Example of a current model (review (http://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaatmf.htm), with a shot of the internals). Of course, it's not cheap if you buy all of the options through HP, which is no different than most other vendors. Apple and HP seem to be on top of the premium upgrade pricing though, so you've been warned. :p

[Honbe]

Guys, I hope you realize this thread is almost a year old. :eek: :p


Looks like a good vendor (not too keen on the OC'ed, water cooled bit on one of them), but it might not be on the Qualified Systems Lists of the software they're using (haven't looked into it further, so I'm just mentioning this).

As far as appearance, it reminds me of the now defunct Sun Ultra 27 (http://www.kev009.com/wp/2009/12/sun-ultra-27-review-the-ultimate-linux-workstation/) (thank's Oracle... :rolleyes: :mad:).


You can thank the fact they're using ODM's for workstations, just as they do the consumer systems. Yay. :rolleyes: :mad: :(

If it's between Dell and HP for workstations, go with HP. Example of a current model (review (http://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaatmf.htm), with a shot of the internals). Of course, it's not cheap if you buy all of the options through HP, which is no different than most other vendors. Apple and HP seem to be on top of the premium upgrade pricing though, so you've been warned. :p

Yeah, after latest experience with Dell we have no other choice. We are testing some HP workstations now. Most of our customers already made the switch or started it.

[nanofrog]

Yeah, after latest experience with Dell we have no other choice. We are testing some HP workstations now. Most of our customers already made the switch or started it.
There can be a bit of hit and miss with HP too, but it's no where near what Dell has become in the workstation market.

But generally speaking, they seem to be better built than Dell's offerings as of late (say since 2008 for sure).

What about IBM or Lenovo? Not on the Qualified Sytems List?
Just curious (not seen one in years, so I don't know what the current build quality is).

I'm still bummed about the loss of the Ultra series, as those were still built like the proverbial tanks of systems past. Just newer hardware. :D

[talmy]

Guys, I hope you realize this thread is almost a year old. :eek: :p

I posted to the thread when it was new, and now it reappears!

As far as appearance, it reminds me of the now defunct Sun Ultra 27 (http://www.kev009.com/wp/2009/12/sun-ultra-27-review-the-ultimate-linux-workstation/) (thank's Oracle... :rolleyes: :mad:).

I had one of these. I guess Sun had trouble selling them because we got them at a bargain price. We tossed Solaris and installed Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop. I always thought it was shoddy construction -- much preferred the Dells.

If it's between Dell and HP for workstations, go with HP. Example of a current model (review (http://www.deskeng.com/articles/aaatmf.htm), with a shot of the internals).

My employer is buying the less expensive Z400s which are a conventional design and much less expensive! But I'm concerned about HPs latest rumblings about selling off their computer line. Don't know if that's consumer only all the whole hardware operation.

I was buying Dell systems for home use 5-10 years ago. On the commercial grade ones Dell offered extensions to the 3 year (standard) warranty for up to 5 years of coverage. Never had any problems with an Dell desktop system except for one which had a hard drive fail in 2 years. I'm still using an old Optiplex. OTOH of the three iMacs I've had over 3 years (maximum extended warranty) one died shortly after 3 years and a second ran for 6 but was limping near the end. I don't know I'd trust an investment in a high end Mac Pro which Apple only considers worth of a 1 year standard warranty and won't go beyond 3.

[nanofrog]

I had one of these. I guess Sun had trouble selling them because we got them at a bargain price. We tossed Solaris and installed Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop. I always thought it was shoddy construction -- much preferred the Dells.
Hmm.. I liked what I saw, and I recall I wasn't alone.

As per them going away, they I suspect they had to cut the prices too deep (understand that they didn't do what they expected with Open Solaris), and Oracle dumped them due to insufficient profit.

Oh well. Another one bites the dust.... :p

My employer is buying the less expensive Z400s which are a conventional design and much less expensive! But I'm concerned about HPs latest rumblings about selling off their computer line. Don't know if that's consumer only all the whole hardware operation.
You, me, and a lot of other workstation users, as that segment is handled by the PSG, not the ESG.

Hopefully, they're just feeling out the market, or worst case (they do sell of the PSG), will shift the workstations to the ESG. It would be a mistake to kill them off IMO, as they're still needed, and perhaps a slight increase (though SP rather than DP models) as clients on clusters (still need the GPU power).

I was buying Dell systems for home use 5-10 years ago. On the commercial grade ones Dell offered extensions to the 3 year (standard) warranty for up to 5 years of coverage. Never had any problems with an Dell desktop system except for one which had a hard drive fail in 2 years. I'm still using an old Optiplex. OTOH of the three iMacs I've had over 3 years (maximum extended warranty) one died shortly after 3 years and a second ran for 6 but was limping near the end. I don't know I'd trust an investment in a high end Mac Pro which Apple only considers worth of a 1 year standard warranty and won't go beyond 3.
I know what you mean. Apple's always been bad in the enterprise market (support isn't up to enterprise standards, nor did they ever provide a full range of integrated solutions - some smatterings of hardware here and there, but not full, and what they did, was half-baked).

Unfortunately, even Dell's business systems and workstation systems are suffering (gotten too cheap, and don't last as they once did from what I'm seeing). For example, ethernet controllers gone in under a year (100% failure rate of all systems purchased which was over 30, not the odd system or 2).

[mBox]

I know what you mean. Apple's always been bad in the enterprise market (support isn't up to enterprise standards, nor did they ever provide a full range of integrated solutions - some smatterings of hardware here and there, but not full, and what they did, was half-baked).I guess it depends where you are. Here in mid west Canada we've had decent to great support outside of the one year mark. Then add the fact that the Mac Pros simply just dont die that easily.
In most cases and I think Apple knew this, the user tend to learn about the system (similar to the days of me fidgeting around with Windows NT/2000 installations and hardware) and can easily fix on their own.
Now of course I deal with close to a dozen Mac Pros so I probably dont count as Enterprise, but I can easily handle my dozen as oppose to the 50 IT staff to 1000 HPs my corporation deals with :)

[nanofrog]

I guess it depends where you are. Here in mid west Canada we've had decent to great support outside of the one year mark.
I'm talking about next business day, same day, and especially 4hr on-site service (needed for critical systems), regardless of distance, for 3 years minimum. Apple doesn't do that, and what on-site service I'm aware of, customers were made to feel as if they were being granted an extreme favor.

Not the best way to treat enterprise customers IMO. Just saying... :D

I can easily handle my dozen as oppose to the 50 IT staff to 1000 HPs my corporation deals with :)
Hmm... 1:12 staff to MP, vs. 1:20 for the HP's.

Then there's the question, How many times are those issues User Error vs. hardware failures? :eek: :p I'm just accustomed to PC's having a lot more user issues than any other, when all things are equal (enterprise systems, software is well written, IT staff have implemented good security on their end,...).

[toxic]

this thread is a bit old, but...

If you need/want to run Windows-only stuff like ProE, IDEAS, 3DMax that needs specific high-end graphics cards, then get a Dell or HP. If you like OS X and run creative apps, get a MP.

By and large, most of the complaining about graphics cards I see in various forums aren't from professionals running CAD/CAM or 3D visualization software, but gamers. Nothing wrong with playing games, but casting the argument as "Mac Pros don't have high end pro graphics" when a lot of the stuff that really needs that type of card doesn't even run on OS X, is a bit suspect.

Lets be honest - the Apple universe has been oriented around entertainment and the creative arts almost from the beginning. If you need to run heavyweight scientific/engineering applications, you are likely to be forced into Windows or another UNIX anyway, cost of a Dell vs Mac aside.

"creative arts" encompasses 3D modeling. Macs can run Blender, Cinema4D, Maya, and SketchUp Pro (among others), and AutoCAD (not exactly a creative app, but still relevant) now has a Mac version. Rhino is also supposedly coming to Mac in the next few years. of all of these titles, only C4D does not benefit from workstation graphics.

the problem? only NVidia offers workstation cards for Mac, and the drivers universally suck. NONE of them, even the Quadro 4000 with the best drivers of any Mac Quadro card, flat-out outperforms the fastest desktop card option (currently the 5870) or even the aging GTX 285. in other words, anyone doing creative 3D work on the Mac is getting gypped.

[Honbe]

There can be a bit of hit and miss with HP too, but it's no where near what Dell has become in the workstation market.

But generally speaking, they seem to be better built than Dell's offerings as of late (say since 2008 for sure).

What about IBM or Lenovo? Not on the Qualified Sytems List?
Just curious (not seen one in years, so I don't know what the current build quality is).

I'm still bummed about the loss of the Ultra series, as those were still built like the proverbial tanks of systems past. Just newer hardware. :D

IBM is on both Catia and NX lists, but I've never seen Lenovo there. We had IBM workastations before when running Catia 4 on Unix. Solid stations and good in cold winters, too -:)

[vitzr]

There is no question that Apple charges a very hefty premium just because it's a Mac, but if you can afford it the machine is simply stellar.

Since I've used Mac Desktops for my engineering work for years, I simply cannot imagine not having one.

[deconstruct60]

IBM is on both Catia and NX lists, but I've never seen Lenovo there.

First, IBM doesn't even sell workstations anymore.

Second, the Catia compatiblity list for Windows 7 doesn't even list IBM (not surprising since don't make them. ), but does list Lenovo.

http://www.3ds.com/support/certified-hardware/windows-certified-workstations/


Didn't look up NX.



We had IBM workastations before when running Catia 4 on Unix. Solid stations and good in cold winters, too -:)

In addition to the Intellistations moving on to Lenovo as Thinkstations, the POWER based workstations have disappeared. Linux has driven the POWER, SPARC, Itanium/HP-UX workstations completely out of the market. No one is seriously positioning single user RISC unix anymore . The software still gets sold because folks have huge sunk costs in them, but almost all of the customers are transitioning to x86 ones over time.


P.S. Not 100% sure this is NX but again.... looking for an OS that will be supported in next couple of years (Windows 7 ) ... No IBM, Yes Lenovo.

http://support.industrysoftware.automation.siemens.com/online_library/certification/index.php?page=2&p=o&v1=00010&status=ics

P.P.S. If HP spins off as an Indy (e.g., like Agilent ) or gets picked up by someone with better alignment (e.g., Samsung which makes components. ) all the certs will move just like when IBM spun out their boxes.

[Gomff]

I'm working on a 3d graphics job at the moment and I need more rendering muscle. Much as I would have liked to upgrade my 2008 Mac Pro, we have more important concerns money wise, so instead I ordered a fast, over clocked, water cooled, fully tested PC which is going to handle rendering.

The cost was a quarter of the new Mac Pro's but the performance is about 70% that of the top of the range MPs. Essentially, I did this I order to keep using my current Mac as my main machine for a bit longer. It's still fast enough for most things but rendering times could be shorter.

When it does become time to upgrade my main machine, I honestly dont know what I'll do. For me, it has always been about the superior and hassle free environment of OS X but then Apple brought out Lion which has broken quite lot in 3d app land. Now windows is returning to the top in terms of performance despite being ugly and it feels like my Mac days are coming to an end out of necessity more than anything else.

I've yet to Find a PC manufacturer that builds PC's as well as Apple build Mac Pro's. They just don't seem to age well at all, and resale value is poor in comparison. I really wish Apple was offering value like they did back in 2008.

[wonderspark]

The thing about the Mac Pro is that Apple spent so much energy making it LOOK amazing that it will always LOOK like a better machine, but underneath the pretty shell I think PCs have the advantage today. I love Macs, but they don't always "just work" any better than PCs. Both can be brilliant or bollocks.

If someone took the time to make a PC case as nice as the Mac Pro, I bet people would keep them going longer, and the resale value would stay higher as well. When something still looks awesome after a few years, it's hard to let it go. That's why classic cars and your favorite outfit stay around until the very end, while the junky looking stuff gets tossed much sooner. Apple has this (and people) figured out quite well.

That said, if one can understand that any machine will be replaced or overhauled every few years, it's far more efficient to build an awesome PC than an awesome Mac right now. The question is whether or not one will still feel "cool" if they build a PC. I've used far more PCs than Macs over the years, and what's worth noting is that most of the praise sent my way has been for what came OUT of the machine, not which one I used to make stuff.

[mBox]

I'm talking about next business day, same day, and especially 4hr on-site service (needed for critical systems), regardless of distance, for 3 years minimum. Apple doesn't do that, and what on-site service I'm aware of, customers were made to feel as if they were being granted an extreme favor.

Not the best way to treat enterprise customers IMO. Just saying... :D


Hmm... 1:12 staff to MP, vs. 1:20 for the HP's.

Then there's the question, How many times are those issues User Error vs. hardware failures? :eek: :p I'm just accustomed to PC's having a lot more user issues than any other, when all things are equal (enterprise systems, software is well written, IT staff have implemented good security on their end,...).I may have goofed on the amount of computers. I think its way less than that. I may have sounded a bit high (both ego and numbers).
Im just stating that, I dont have major issues with our so called Enterprise set-up of Mac Pros and Xserves here.
Our corporation replaces all PCs every three years and they can afford too (gov). I cant replace, I just add :) I hung on as long as I can to our SGI O2 and Onyx 2s (two total) but when software (Alias at the time) stopped supporting and further dev we had to finally put them to rest.
Were not all the as far as workflows go.
I have friends in different situations and mine doesn't match any of theirs.
Some of them have to buy their own systems.
Others have to keep working on specific systems that dont get upgraded cause their fine running an old version of 3D Max :P

----------

The thing about the Mac Pro is that Apple spent so much energy making it LOOK amazing that it will always LOOK like a better machine, but underneath the pretty shell I think PCs have the advantage today. I love Macs, but they don't always "just work" any better than PCs. Both can be brilliant or bollocks...Dude not all corporations will allow you to build a workstation. No big company wants a frankenstein system that they cant put legal warranty on it. I think the term is Capital purchase in some walsk of corporate life :P
This is why big corps like HP can sell the high-end boxes. And this is where Apple thinks its at.
Its just neat that regular Joe's can buy one and feel the have something that just works, and Im one of them ;)
Of course Im referring to my own home Mac Pro.
I wish I can afford the ones I have at work.
If you have to build your own PC then do it.
Heck I use to be like that...when I had more free time :)

[wonderspark]

I've been lucky. When I worked for the government, they let me build my own studio and fill it with my own equipment, so long as I maintained it. I built some PC edit suites, and some Mac edit suites. I even had all the florescent lighting replaced with incandescent track lighting on black drop-ceiling tiles. That was cool. :cool:

Now, my home is my office, and that's cool, too. Except now I have to buy my own equipment instead of letting the taxpayers buy it for me. I'm happier today, though. :)

[mBox]

I've been lucky. When I worked for the government, they let me build my own studio and fill it with my own equipment, so long as I maintained it. I built some PC edit suites, and some Mac edit suites. I even had all the florescent lighting replaced with incandescent track lighting on black drop-ceiling tiles. That was cool. :cool:

Now, my home is my office, and that's cool, too. Except now I have to buy my own equipment instead of letting the taxpayers buy it for me. I'm happier today, though. :)You are lucky since most dont have that experience :) Ive been in and around many levels from freelance, gov and private.
Its still the same though. I cant justify spending all that time putting together a computer that might be okay for 6 months. I need things to work now and I mean now!
Ive set up a few friends and new friends from wedding, doc, guerilla and even film with Mac Pros and they always tell me that prior experiences with Windows hardware, software and of course peripherals would basically take down their creative workflow just by a stupid update or at times nothing at all.
Again this is from my experience.
I say this cause Ive also seen PC only shops survive unscathed for years.
I guess were debating an old war which most dont care about anymore.
I dont cause Im fine with my Mac Pro and Dell T3500 at home :)
They both serve their purposes just like felt markers and ball point pens ;)

[wonderspark]

The thread might be a debate, but you and I seem to agree that both systems are tools that will work swimmingly if set up properly.;)

[Honbe]

First, IBM doesn't even sell workstations anymore.

Second, the Catia compatiblity list for Windows 7 doesn't even list IBM (not surprising since don't make them. ), but does list Lenovo.



I know IBM does not sell WS anymore, last ones we had were those UNIX for Catia v4.
Thanks for the update on Lenovo, my mistake.

[MvdM]

What some may not realize, is that if you pick up the phone to get pricing from Dell, it tends to be cheaper than the web pricing. :eek: HP and other PC vendors are the same way for their enterprise gear (sometimes consumer as well). ;)

So those price differences posted by masmullin could easily change as a result.

Apple does the same if you phone them and ask them to lower the price a bit.

[mBox]

The thread might be a debate, but you and I seem to agree that both systems are tools that will work swimmingly if set up properly.;)Yes with my fingers crossed at all times. I say this now cause when I get back from my vacation, I have to make sure that a Cubix PCI expander plays well with a slew of cards along with Avid.
Serenity now...

[Hellhammer]

Apple does the same if you phone them and ask them to lower the price a bit.

That is very rare from what I have gathered during my time here in MR.

[nanofrog]

Dude not all corporations will allow you to build a workstation.
True, but it depends on the specific situation (requirements, budget, IT capabilities, ...).

Apple does the same if you phone them and ask them to lower the price a bit.
There are specific discounts available for those who qualify (Education, Government, Apple Employee for example), but I've never heard of discounts for anyone that didn't qualify for one of these sorts of programs.