Has anyone here pondered their mortality?

[jefhatfield]

Sometime after my 30th birthday, my mortality has always been in the back of my mind...or at least not being a "young adult"

..and now that I am past age 40, I am now thinking a lot more about my mortality and I have come to some conclusions, or added things to my "to do" list

1) check prostrate
2) regularly check cholesterol and blood sugar
3) give back to the human race/country/local community
4) pay more attention the the history channel ;)

So what have you 30, 40, 50+ year olds done or pondered?

[Xtremehkr]

Favoring Buddhism, I tend to think along the lines of not wanting to come back as a Dung Beetle.

But, taking care of your health will no doubt make old age a much nicer experience.

[andiwm2003]

1.)being a geek (scientist) i decided to read into philosophy.
see what other geeks know, close my gap in humanist education. after all i don't wanna die ignorant.

2.)knowing about my mortality (and vulnerability) will not stop me from outdoor sports and rock climbing. if I die so be it.

[acceber]

1) check prostrate
2) regularly check cholesterol and blood sugar
3) give back to the human race/country/local community
4) pay more attention the the history channel ;)

So what have you 30, 40, 50+ year olds done or pondered?

Sorry to butt in. :)

I'm 17, but I happen to do all the above now...well close to anyway.
1) check for lumps (hey, there have been stories of 20 something's getting breast cancer)
2) regularly check cholesterol and blood sugar (exercise)
3) give back to the human race/country/local community (volunteering)
4) pay more attention to history and make sure it doesn't repeat in certain instances (we don't have a history channel)

Do the younger members of the forum relate to this at all?

[dabirdwell]

Mortality is just part of being a small piece of a complex living system. Time and death are all that evolution (our heritage) requires. Time for small changes to acumulate and death to make room for new species.

[*Y*]

How many of you began to think of God as you got older?

[PlaceofDis]

well im only a mere 21, but for some reason i have always felt much older than my age, i dont know why

but i have always been conscious of life and death, and a long time ago i came to terms with the fact that i will die, i will be forgotten and it wont really matter.

i write a lot of poetry, and i used to be very Catholic oriented and thus my writing dealt with life, death, morality and accepting one's fate, yadda yadda yadda, basically crap that any teenager struggles with

i have abandoned my faith in god and christ so to speak and become basically an atheist who barrows ideas from ALL religions to make my life comprehensible, however, i still am not concerned with my mortality because i know that i will die, i might be remembered for my poetry, but probably not, its a fact of life

sorry about my semi-religious rant there

[*Y*]

May I ask why you abandoned your faith?

[Blue Velvet]

Virtually every day...

[PlaceofDis]

May I ask why you abandoned your faith?

i was a very religious guy, read the bible and all, and came to know the Catholic dogmas and doctrines very well, i found that i could not comprehend them or believe in a religion based on them, they just did not sit well with me. i couldnt stand by either as a religion kept asking/demanding more guilt and money out of me, for things that were not necessary

i dont want to start a religion war, this is just my experience and my outlook

so i went and i searched around and found many more religions, none of them are perfect, but Buddhism is the closest thing that works for me, However, i do not believe in any specific god, i do believe that Jesus Christ as a man existed and had many good ideas and beliefs that i still incorporate into my life, as well as the teachings of Buddha and Gahndi and Muhammad and so on

i guess i am an amalgamation of religions while at the same time none

[AmigoMac]

i guess i am an amalgamation of religions while at the same time none

Then, we are from the same religion :p.

[angelneo]

i guess i am an amalgamation of religions while at the same time none
Sounds alot like what i believe in as well... I am lucky that I came from a country that has a variety of religions and in that I managed to learn quite a bit from them. I do believed each has their own values which we can learn but none are absolute.

[virividox]

always get a medical check up dont really think of dying just cuz i know if i do im okay with it

[WinterMute]

Being a long-standing athiest, I'm often drawn into conversations with believers about what they think will happen after death, and I have to say my reaction is often a little brutal.

Everything ends, entropy is the bottom line in all active systems, when we die, that's it, game over, no replay.

I'm well aware that the universe we live in is trying to kill us on a daily basis, being alive is a very tenuous state, and I'm perfectly happy with that. I make no special effort to ward off the inevitable, although I tend to live a little less dangerously now I'm a dad.

Quick and painless would be nice, but we often don't get a choice in these things. It's going to happen, why worry about it?

[scem0]

How many of you began to think of God as you got older?

Quite the opposite for me. I wouldn't classify myself as old (I'm 17), nor would many of the members here, but during the past couple of years I have really distanced myself from God and christianity. I used to consider myself to be a steadfast christian, I donated to my church, I volunteered, I prayed, I considered God before myself, etc. But I've decided that I'd rather adopt a transcendental philosophy about my life. I think it's best not to subscribe to old ideas in a constantly changing world, where one suit doesn't fit all people, and a suit that fits one person one day won't fit them the next.

I have the utmost respect for most religions though, including christianity. I just don't see myself inside that box.

scem0

[broken_keyboard]

I think the fact that life is limited makes us value things more.

Religion? Arbitrary guff.

[mj_1903]

Just so everyone knows off the bat, I am an atheist and 20.

Frankly, I know I am not immortal and I know my life could be stolen from me tomorrow and I don't care. I have seen first hand how weak the human body is... it is not pretty.

Life is pretty simple, get in there, have fun, give to those who are not as well off as you and die. I accept that my life is no different than my pet budgies, there is no heaven, I am at peace.

Do I change the way I live because of my mortality? Not really. I should though, I know that much.

[scem0]

Religion? Arbitrary guff.

As my last post shows, I am no proponent to religion, but I have to disagree with this.

Religion can teach us some important things about ourselves, and help improve our lives even if it's not 'true'. I believe that Christianity is 'false'... not bad, just not true. I don't believe there is a God. I don't believe Jesus was the son of God. But I believe that Christianity has had an overall, positive effect on the world (despite some major screw-ups like the Crusades, Inquisition, etc.) because it causes people to delve into their hearts and pull out what's important. When I was a Christian, I realized that I had great power as an individual to change the world, among other things. I still believe that, even though I don't believe in God anymore.

Mortality, like so many other things, is just in place to give perspective, IMO. Life through the eyes of an immortal isn't life as we know it, because mortality has penetrated our society so deeply. In other cultures, death isn't near as important, and their lives are much different.

Death isn't something to be feared or celebrated, IMO. It's something that is there, and will always be there. I don't think death should affect you that much. You should always be cogniscent of death, but not overly saturated by it. Questioning the origin or meaning of death is pointless, as is questioning the origin or meaning of life. Actually, I take that back. Expecting an answer to how life came about, or why we die, is foolish. However, asking the question, and thinking about it can't hurt us. It just makes us a bit more wiser.

scem0

[broken_keyboard]

As my last post shows, I am no proponent to religion, but I have to disagree with this.

Religion can teach us some important things about ourselves, and help improve our lives even if it's not 'true'. I believe that Christianity is 'false'... not bad, just not true. I don't believe there is a God. I don't believe Jesus was the son of God. But I believe that Christianity has had an overall, positive effect on the world (despite some major screw-ups like the Crusades, Inquisition, etc.) because it causes people to delve into their hearts and pull out what's important. When I was a Christian, I realized that I had great power as an individual to change the world, among other things. I still believe that, even though I don't believe in God anymore.

Mortality, like so many other things, is just in place to give perspective, IMO. Life through the eyes of an immortal isn't life as we know it, because mortality has penetrated our society so deeply. In other cultures, death isn't near as important, and their lives are much different.

Death isn't something to be feared or celebrated, IMO. It's something that is there, and will always be there. I don't think death should affect you that much. You should always be cogniscent of death, but not overly saturated by it. Questioning the origin or meaning of death is pointless, as is questioning the origin or meaning of life. Actually, I take that back. Expecting an answer to how life came about, or why we die, is foolish. However, asking the question, and thinking about it can't hurt us. It just makes us a bit more wiser.

scem0

I'm not so sure Christianity (or religion in general) has been all that great for the world. Something that tells you to sacrifice what you want in this life in order to have a better afterlife is one thing. But then you add the fact that in actual fact there is no afterlife, and you get something that asks people to sacrifice their one and only life they will ever have, which is pure evil to ask people to do that.

The only good thing I can see about religion is that it gave birth to philosophy which is at least a serious attempt to answer the big questions of life. Even though most of modern philosophy is a load of rubbish, at least it is an attempt to be methodical and rational about things.

[brap]

I'm 21, but nobody in my family has led a long and happy life for a few generations now; I hope to follow the trend. I have sort-of a '****** it' attitude, which annoys the hell out of my partner.

I'm a pragmatist, I suppose. If any of the religious types are right (which they arent - score one for Hell) any afterlife will be a riot compared to this crap.

[zelmo]

Having a child does wonders for increasing your mortality awareness.
I am 43, and have a 3.5 year old son. I am fully conscious of the fact that I may not live to see him graduate high school, as the males in my family do not "routinely" make it to 60. While this has not given me a religious awakening, it has made me appreciate every moment I have with my boy. The moment I held him in my arms for the first time, I started worrying about him, and thinking ahead to the day when I would no longer be there to help guide him in life.
Time is precious, and we need to make the most of every second we are given. That is something we can all agree on, and also one of the easiest facts to lose sight of in the day to day grind of our existence.

[emw]

Having a child does wonders for increasing your mortality awareness.
I am 43, and have a 3.5 year old son. I am fully conscious of the fact that I may not live to see him graduate high school, as the males in my family do not "routinely" make it to 60. While this has not given me a religious awakening, it has made me appreciate every moment I have with my boy. The moment I held him in my arms for the first time, I started worrying about him, and thinking ahead to the day when I would no longer be there to help guide him in life.
Time is precious, and we need to make the most of every second we are given. That is something we can all agree on, and also one of the easiest facts to lose sight of in the day to day grind of our existence.

I completely agree - that was my first thought when I saw this thread. Having two young children, and as such my ponderings of mortality center on the impact it would have on my family, not on what I would be missing.

[JesseJames]

Look at my signature line.

[kiwi-in-uk]

In my early 20s I behaved as if I was immortal (the stupid, stupid things we do when young :D )

In my early 30s I didn't think I'd reach 40 (although I had slowed down a little on the stupid stuff)

In my early 40s, with 3 young children I went through a period of "good behaviour" for a while before it all got a bit boring

Now, as I approach 49, I feel very mortal when on the M25 (a busy ring road around London), landing in Canberra (Australia) during fog season, and landing in Wellington (NZ) anytime

I've never been religious, always (since I was 8) felt life is a privilege - I try not to abuse that privilege, and at the same time I try not to have a boring, mediocre life. It's been "interesting" so far, but I think I will slow down (i.e. fewer risky things) again soon - too many things to do, places to see, people to meet, stuff to show my kids.

[sgarringer]

i was a very religious guy, read the bible and all, and came to know the Catholic dogmas and doctrines very well, i found that i could not comprehend them or believe in a religion based on them, they just did not sit well with me. i couldnt stand by either as a religion kept asking/demanding more guilt and money out of me, for things that were not necessary

i dont want to start a religion war, this is just my experience and my outlook

so i went and i searched around and found many more religions, none of them are perfect, but Buddhism is the closest thing that works for me, However, i do not believe in any specific god, i do believe that Jesus Christ as a man existed and had many good ideas and beliefs that i still incorporate into my life, as well as the teachings of Buddha and Gahndi and Muhammad and so on

i guess i am an amalgamation of religions while at the same time none

There is a term for what you believe in, its called Agnostic. Athiest (as you mentioned earlier) is refusing to believe in anything.

I'm Agnostic because personally, I don't know the meaning of life. There are a lot of convincing arguements out there (different religions) one of which may be right. I'm going to live my life the best I can, and hope that in the grand scheme of things, thats good enough.

[jefhatfield]

Sorry to butt in. :)

I'm 17, but I happen to do all the above now...well close to anyway.
1) check for lumps (hey, there have been stories of 20 something's getting breast cancer)
2) regularly check cholesterol and blood sugar (exercise)
3) give back to the human race/country/local community (volunteering)
4) pay more attention to history and make sure it doesn't repeat in certain instances (we don't have a history channel)

Do the younger members of the forum relate to this at all?

i commend you for your maturity and insight...especially at your age...when i was 17 i had no idea what healthy living was and i ate junkfood and snacked a lot never thinking that one day my metabolism would slow down in my 20s ;)...and when i was 17, i never thought about giving back to the community/church/schools with time or money but i did see a lot of older people (usually 30-somethings up to seniors) help out and it puzzled me why they did it

today, at 41, i keep my junk food habit to a minimum and i have thought about actually using the skills i learned in college and go into employment law and help mistreated workers in my community...many employers take advantage of workers in times of recession and the injustice i have seen seems to be an evil that i am capable and willing to fight against...if i can, i would want to do pro-bono work in this area as a legal assistant or even paralegal or lawyer...i did take the first step in a proper legal career and took a practice lsat and did fairly well for a first attempt, but if i am willing to take a second job, give up several eveings a week for 4 years in law school, which i know will not be easy, then the experience will hopefully toughen me up enough to enter the fray which is employment law...i never thought of myself as a warrior or fighter and i didn't think that could really be honorable and helpful...but in my older age i realize that people who use force like cops, and prosecuting employment attorneys chasing down errant employers, are helping the community just as much as a church worker or volunteer for united way

[Davito]

1) check prostrate


You mean prostate, I guess ;)

[jayscheuerle]

Dying isn't a problem. It happens to everyone and everything as far as we know...

I'm more concerned with living to a ripe old age (or not old) in health good enough to do what I want and having people I love and love me around.

Mostly, when I die, I'll die with the regret of all the people in the world who never got around to knowing me and knowing the void that will be left in their hearts and brains at missing out on this "once in a lifetime" opportunity... :D

I'm pretty sure death will be a rip-off. Kind of like falling asleep when you're really tired. No bright light. No life-flashing before my eyes...

[jasylonian]

Mortality has been playing heavily on my mind recently. I simply do not believe that I will live a long life and to be honest, I do not care. As far as I am concerned, I should already be dead twice over. When I was six, I rolled down the side of a mountain next to a waterfall and the only reason that I did not fall hundreds of feet to my death was because I crashed into a boulder, which slowed me down enough that I could unroll myself. Sixteen years later, an 18-wheeler ran me off the road and I lost control and t-boned it. I watched as the rear tires came over the hood of my station wagon. In both of these experiences, I came out without a scratch.

As a God-fearing/loving soul, I believe that there is a reason for everything. For me, these experiences have led me to believe that I am being kept alive for a reason and that I cannot die until my purpose in life has been fulfilled. The last year has been extremely difficult for me and I would be lying if I said that there were not times when I would rather have been dead. However, my faith keeps me alive by allowing me to believe that things will get better in life or through death, and it will be accomplished how and when God chooses. As life has become more and more difficult, my faith has actually grown because I believe that trials and tribulations are designed to make us better people.

Coming back to mortality, I have accepted the fact that I am going to die. The only thing that I really care about is doing what I was put on this Earth to do.

From the standpoint of an economics student living in the U.S., I figure that if I die before I can start claiming social security and abusing medicare, I will be doing our children a great favor since I won't be contributing to their tax burden.

[rueyeet]

Hitting 30 just felt weird. Probably because American society has determined that 30 is the milestone for when you're no longer counted among the young, even if you're not old yet. And it's the age when people are getting married, settling down, and having kids--NONE of which I have any interest in, but which everyone around me seems to be in the process of. It's just....odd.

But it's not so much my mortality that occurs to me, as the process of getting there. When you're in your teens or college years, your body is new and young and resilient, and you can get away with a great deal without it even occuring to you to think about it. But from here on out, despite whatever I do to try and keep things going, degeneration is inevitable.

I look at my parents--even my 85-year-old dad who still goes to the gym on a regular basis, but these days is hit hard by so much as a cold--and think, well yay, no matter what I do, that's what I have to look forward to. At best. And then I look at my mom, who uses a wheelchair outside the house due to osteoarthritis, and think, wow, I better take care of myself now! It's not so much the dying that bothers me, but the slow inevitable loss of functionality that aging, no matter how well you preserve yourself, inevitably brings.

Actually, I think a lot more about my parents' mortality these days, seeing as it's a lot closer than my own (barring disaster or unforeseen circumstances). I think my psyche is preparing, in a way--inasmuch as anyone ever can prepare for the deaths of those you love. :(

[wdlove]

The is thought that goes through my mind also. We are living longer today. My hope is that my longevity will be with quality of live, not just quanity. Both of my parents are gone. We only have my wife's father, who is 86. He has Parkinson's Disease. His problem is ambulation, which is very common in the elderly. So much of it has to do with your genes. As many have said it is important to take care of yourself. Both mentally and physically.

I'm not really afraid of death. Looking forward to that day. It will be a new life, getting rid of this frail physical body.

[Littleodie914]

Hmm... Can't say I really have a lot to say on the mortality issue. I, like a few other posters in this thread, am 17 years old. I admit I don't believe in any god, as it's just too hard for me to imagine an all-mighty guy who created everything. (I truly don't mean to say that harshly, I've just never been good at explaining it.) I think that we live life once, and I really have no idea what happens when you die. Guess that's a surpirse I'll look forward to. :D I'm here on Earth for no reason other than to get the most out of it, and to make people happy. I don't worry about death or anything like that. What happens happens, whether you remembered to pack your helmet or not. ;)

[ravenvii]

First all: I'm an atheist, and I am majoring in philosophy. But I am resisting the urge to be drawn into the religious discussion here...

On mortality, no I'm not really afraid of it... It'll be like before you were born. You just don't exist anymore, and you won't exist to care about it.

Now this probably sounds strange/funny, but when I die, I will want to have my brain preserved. Why? Because I believe that in the future, medical science will be able to revitalize you, clone your body and re-insert your brain. This may take tens or hundreds of years, but to me, it'll be about a second. I die, then wake up in a new world. That's what I want to happen.

No, I don't want my genetics stored, I want my actual brain to be preserved. Because a cloned brain will not be the actual me. I will not wake up, because the cloned brain is someone else that is exactly like me. Yes I believe our mind/"soul" is physical, in our brains.

[scem0]

Won't you have to get your brain within a cube of ice within about 8 seconds, or something? Or brain cells will die because of no blood flow? It's very possible, but I don't know if I'd want to be reborn.

If you are nothing when you die, then it would be possible to regret dying because your..... well.... dead.

There is a term for what you believe in, its called Agnostic. Athiest (as you mentioned earlier) is refusing to believe in anything.

I'm Agnostic because personally, I don't know the meaning of life. There are a lot of convincing arguements out there (different religions) one of which may be right. I'm going to live my life the best I can, and hope that in the grand scheme of things, thats good enough.

Well agnosticism is not really combining religions. It's just not knowing whether there is a God, gods, or no God at all. I consider myself to be agnostic because I see no reason to believe that we are ruled by 2 huge teddy bears named peggy and sue above the belief in the God of Christianity.

Look at my signature line.

I agree with the quote, but what's up with the comma after 'God is'? Seems to create a pause that shouldn't be there. :p

scem0

[*Y*]

To all atheists out there,
What I never understood was why do people reject God fully? For example lets assume for a second there is no God. What does a person who believes in God miss out on? He has a very defined set of morals and even if there is no God, he still led a very good life, here on Earth. But what happens if there is a God?

[ravenvii]

Won't you have to get your brain within a cube of ice within about 8 seconds, or something? Or brain cells will die because of no blood flow? It's very possible, but I don't know if I'd want to be reborn.

If you are nothing when you die, then it would be possible to regret dying because your..... well.... dead.

Yeah it has to be done guickly, not within 8 seconds, but guickly. It may be difficult, and probably won't succeed. But there's a CHANCE it might. That's right, I won't care when I'm dead, that's why I'm not really afraid of it. But I'll be glad if I am reborn. The world is a ever-changing and fascinasting place, and I'd love to continue to exist, nonetheless of what nature's laws are.

To all atheists out there,
What I never understood was why do people reject God fully? For example lets assume for a second there is no God. What does a person who believes in God miss out on? He has a very defined set of morals and even if there is no God, he still led a very good life, here on Earth. But what happens if there is a God?

I cannot say that I reject the possibility of there being a God fully. As another poster said, we may very well be ruled by two huge teddy bears. So in a way, I am agnostic. But my own beliefs, of which I cannot back up or provide final support, is that there is no God, or gods. So I do not say a God is simply impossible and you are believing in a fairy tale, because I have absolutely no factual proofs to this. But I FEEL that you believe in fairy tales.

On morality, are you saying you need God to be moral? If I raise you in secret, and teach you that cannibalism is good, and moral in Huge Teddy's eyes, and that Huge Teddy is real, and you must believe in him. What happens? You probably will believe in Huge Teddy. Same with God, and all religions out there. They teach, and convince people that their set of rules is the truth. There are no need to believe in a supreme being to be moral. It is beneficial to YOU to be moral, because it is encouraged by society, and if you do what is encouraged by society, guess what? you live a good life. God is redundant. God has become more and more redundant as scientific discoveries come up. From physics to Darwinism. I will not be surprised if God becomes even more redundant in the future. And I will be even less surprised if in 2,000 years historians will be researching the ancient religion of Christianity as they are researching ancient Greek gods today.

Damn you, you've trolled me into it. ;p :)

[noel4r]

To all atheists out there,
What I never understood was why do people reject God fully? For example lets assume for a second there is no God. What does a person who believes in God miss out on? He has a very defined set of morals and even if there is no God, he still led a very good life, here on Earth. But what happens if there is a God?

I dont think one should believe in God in a "just in case" basis. As for myself, I believe in a God, a good God, a God who doesn't judge your time on Earth, a God that doesn't punish if you dont recite The Our Father and The Hail Mary three times at 6:00 pm on the third day after some odd day, a God that just loves...

[*Y*]

God is redundant. God has become more and more redundant as scientific discoveries come up. From physics to Darwinism. I will not be surprised if God becomes even more redundant in the future.

Show me one real scientific discovery that even suggests a doubt that there is no God.

[broken_keyboard]

I will not be surprised if God becomes even more redundant in the future. And I will be even less surprised if in 2,000 years historians will be researching the ancient religion of Christianity as they are researching ancient Greek gods today.

It seems to me religion is making a bit of a comeback. Christianity seems to be growing, and also there is the Muslim wack-jobs. I predict that in 20 years the US will be a lot more Christian than it is today. (I am an atheist by the way, so I'm not pushing some agenda here, it is just what I see happening)

[broken_keyboard]

Show me one real scientific discovery that even suggests a doubt that there is no God.

Show me one real scientific discovery that even suggests there is a God.

[igucl]

Show me one real scientific discovery that even suggests there is a God.


Are you kidding? Look around a bit.

[broken_keyboard]

Are you kidding? Look around a bit.

Could you be more specific? Thanks.

[jefhatfield]

You mean prostate, I guess ;)

yup, that thingy ;)

[angelneo]

I dont think one should believe in God in a "just in case" basis. As for myself, I believe in a God, a good God, a God who doesn't judge your time on Earth, a God that doesn't punish if you dont recite The Our Father and The Hail Mary three times at 6:00 pm on the third day after some odd day, a God that just loves...
I like your way :)
Are you kidding? Look around a bit.
You are not really explaining yourself and it is more like basing on your beliefs as well.

[blackfox]

It seems to me religion is making a bit of a comeback. Christianity seems to be growing, and also there is the Muslim wack-jobs. I predict that in 20 years the US will be a lot more Christian than it is today. (I am an atheist by the way, so I'm not pushing some agenda here, it is just what I see happening)
Indeed. There has been a global resurgance of Religion for a variety of reasons, some very specific to the circumstances of particular regions.

Nevertheless, there are larger trends at work. Most notably, the collapse of Soviet Ideology and the subsequent vacuum that created for many under that sphere of influence. Equally, if not more importantly, this resurgance seems to be a reaction to the forces of Social, Cultural and Economic Modernization. Traditional sources of Identity and Authority systems are disrupted. The movement to the cities from the countryside has separated people from their traditional roots, and in interacting with large amounts of strangers, they are exposed to new sets of relationships. Under these circumstances, and others, people need new sources of identity, new forms of stable community and a new set of moral precepts to provide them with meaning and purpose.

Religion, mainstream and fundamentalist, meets these needs. In times of rapid social change, as identities dissolve, the self must be redefined, and new identities created. For people facing the need to define "who am I?" "where do I belong?", religion provides compelling answers and religious groups provide social communities to replace those lost through urbanization. Religions, despite their particulars, all give people identity by positing a basic distinction between believers and non-believers, between a superior "in-group" and a different (and inferior) "out-group".

This is all merely educated guessing, however. Nevertheless, I find that Religion will continue to be relevant as long as we are around and most likely more so, as the world becomes more complex and disorientating to many.

As for the original topic, I tend not to think about the enevitable. I just do my best to enjoy the time I have as it comes.

[stubeeef]

While I think of my mortality, I worry about the mortality of my young children more. I constantly pray for their well being, and pray thanks for the health of all of my loved ones.

As far as proof of a god or the odds of spontaneous existance: this paper (http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.18132/article_detail.asp) has this paragraph for you to ponder........
The odds of creating even the simplest organism at random are even more remote--Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe, celebrated cosmologists, calculated the odds as one in ten to the 40,000th power. (Consider that all atoms in the known universe are estimated to number no more than ten to the 80th power.)

I believe, and I find the big bang theory a great start. I love the movie CONTACT because it shows the merging of science and religion.

Back to the subject of mortality, My father died when I was in 4th grade. He was an alcholic and it killed him. I have always been angry at him for being so selfish, not denying himself robbed me of my dad growing up. I hope to be smart for my girls, to live long and be there to support and watch them grow. Otherwise I believe that in an afterlife in what is normally called heaven.

[Les Kern]

i guess i am an amalgamation of religions while at the same time none

I personally admire that. You've put more thought into it than the total put in by 100,000 fundamentalists. And you're a fine "pick" to try the Unitarian church. At every service there may be Jews, Christians, Atheists, Nihilists, Wiccans etc. Makes for lively conversation, and never are there "your religion is stoopid" comments.
Anyway, as for mortality... I'm against it, but have resigned myself to it's certainty. I personally believe Jesus was a man like Mohhamud, that all religions are a manifestation of the terrifying world we live in. What waits for us after death, if anything, is far to strange to put into words by a mere mortal. Perhaps we become part of the whole of the universe. Perhaps we become... nothing. The odd part for me, being a border-line nihilist for my entire life, is what exactly it is that keeps me caring. But care I do, and deeply. (Some nihilist, eh?) It boils down to this: 1. I don't know 2. mere "faith" is not enough for me 3. I know nothing, and can never know during this life on earth. 4. We are the devil, and we are god 5. morality is not part of our fabric but learned, not chosen but set by other people and events (thanks mom!) 6. There are Macs in heaven because even God would tire of the updates, spyware and viruses.
Conclusion: Dying sucks

[ravenvii]

Show me one real scientific discovery that even suggests a doubt that there is no God.

Evolution.

And please note that I am talking about God, not god(s). And yes, I am fully and confidently denying that the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God exists at all. It is just simply illogical to believe in a God like that, who have feelings, yet omnipotent, who is infinite, yet cares about everyone, who causes floods on this one planet out of millions to teach humans, who picks humans to nurture out of millions of species on earth and elsewhere. And still call him omnipotent? And don't give me "That's faith!", because that's bull. A life unexamined is a life not worth living. And if you examine just a tiny bit, you will almost immediately find contradictions in the religions that believe in the God of the Bible.

[3rdpath]

i've always pondered my mortality. i've certainly taunted it while racing cars, cave diving and gonzo bike downhilling.

but like many of the previous posters have stated, nothing has made me as acutely aware of my limited bandwidth as having kids. i'm a little more restrained these days, gotta see my kids grow up and maybe even hold a grandkid someday.

is there a higher power? i think so. is it a god? hmmm, not sure. do we float around in the ether after death? i sure hope not. the thought of my grandmother hovering unseen above me while i'm on the toilet is kinda disconcerting...

what i do know is that what we do here now ripples out further than we'll ever know. enjoy the ride.

[Duff-Man]

Duff-Man says...I am not "afraid" of death at all...in fact I have a very real curiousity about it, what comes next, how one feels at that particular moment...I am not trying to sound like some depressed suicidal maniac, but in some ways I look forward to it as it is the ultimate threshold to cross...when the time comes...hopefully many years from now....oh yeah!

[MyLeftNut]

Unfortunately the term 'God' has become a loaded term nowdays. It conjures any number of interpretations and images which place people at odds with each other as soon as it is mentioned. That people attach themselves and their egos so strongly to one image or another is testimony to the wars and suffering that have been a result of misgivings that people have created with their beliefs. For this, I dont believe in religion as way of life - it is more of a political construct, but I do believe in spirituality and that there is something else on the other side.

It pains me to hear people say that there is nothing when they die. Of course, that is their belief system, but it seems incongruous with the reality around me and our lack of knowledge. Humans are arrogant to think we really know anything about the world around us and yet we claim to know one way or the other what happens when we die. Even science (quantum physics) is uncovering new things everyday and realising that what constitutes reality has deeper meaning than we expected.

From this we understand energy and matter transmute from one to another within both this universe and possibly others. Are humans not composed of matter and energy as well? To presume what is left over when we die is the sum total of you is a little presumptuous.

On another level, what then of the purpose of experience if it is a once only event without continuation in some form or another...so many questions...yet so little rational discussion, only fear and trepidation and apathy. Anyway, enough of my rant...I agree with the poster, if you dont need religion to form an opinion of the world around you perhaps that is part of the evolution of ideas and something which is intrinsically human and about the only certain thing we can claim as immortal. :)

[AmigoMac]

Now this probably sounds strange/funny, but when I die, I will want to have my brain preserved. Why? Because I believe that in the future, medical science will be able to revitalize you, clone your body and re-insert your brain. This may take tens or hundreds of years, but to me, it'll be about a second. I die, then wake up in a new world. That's what I want to happen.

No, I don't want my genetics stored, I want my actual brain to be preserved. Because a cloned brain will not be the actual me. I will not wake up, because the cloned brain is someone else that is exactly like me. Yes I believe our mind/"soul" is physical, in our brains.

In 500 years someone will find your brain, put it in a body, wake you up...

-hey, nice! Where am I?

-New San Francisco Sir.

-New San Francisco?

-Yes, sir, it's a new city over the buildings which used to be the city 300 years ago...

-What the...? What date is today?

-take a rest sir...

-Hey, can you get a mac for me?

-(Laughing at you) I will try sir, have to ask a permission from
the city to get one out of the museum, we have 5 Powermac G-XX still and have to take care of that...

-Whattt? (Boom) (You die because of the heart) ...

Why not?

*I know, I'm tired and didn't sleep well ... back to work.

[sebisworld]

Mostly, when I die, I'll die with the regret of all the people in the world who never got around to knowing me and knowing the void that will be left in their hearts and brains at missing out on this "once in a lifetime" opportunity... :D

I'm pretty sure death will be a rip-off. Kind of like falling asleep when you're really tired. No bright light. No life-flashing before my eyes...

That, my friend, is the funniest thing I have read about dying so far. And I am old, really old... for a teenager (19)

I hope to be smart for my girls, to live long and be there to support and watch them grow.

That seems very nobel, and I kind of think the same way. Mind you, I don't have kids, but being alive to make other lives better is for me the only justification of not jumping of some bridge. Since I don't believe in God, and don't understand why a Christian thinks his religion is more correct than Islam for example (both are just based on beliefs), I think that if I just passed away, it would not really matter to me, because I would not be able to worry about all the things I could have done but didn't. But my life might matter to others, so let's keep living!

[jayscheuerle]

It pains me to hear people say that there is nothing when they die. Of course, that is their belief system, but it seems incongruous with the reality around me and our lack of knowledge. Humans are arrogant to think we really know anything about the world around us and yet we claim to know one way or the other what happens when we die. Even science (quantum physics) is uncovering new things everyday and realising that what constitutes reality has deeper meaning than we expected.

From this we understand energy and matter transmute from one to another within both this universe and possibly others. Are humans not composed of matter and energy as well? To presume what is left over when we die is the sum total of you is a little presumptuous.

On another level, what then of the purpose of experience if it is a once only event without continuation in some form or another...so many questions...yet so little rational discussion, only fear and trepidation and apathy. Anyway, enough of my rant...I agree with the poster, if you dont need religion to form an opinion of the world around you perhaps that is part of the evolution of ideas and something which is intrinsically human and about the only certain thing we can claim as immortal. :)

Lefty, you've got it a bit backwards here in terms of presumption and arrogance. Assuming that when we die, our bodies just rot and that's the end of story is based on observation. Anything else is based on speculations and hopes with no grounding whatsoever. It's fine to say we don't know what happens after death, but to create and insist on situations based on whimsy is reckless logic. What we do know is based on observations and it's pretty anticlimactic.

Remember, energy is mass (times the speed of light squared, eh? ;) ), not a spiritual construct. There's nothing "new age" about it. Our mass and potential energy are converted into plenty of earth-based uses, feeding buggers, giving off gasses... the beautiful process of decay and rot!

So, seeing that all we really KNOW is that it's "game over man!" when we die, I'd be sure to have all the fun you can while you're most assuredly a conscious, physical being. Any extra after death is icing on the cake, either the validation that your beliefs were correct or the most exciting confirmation of being wrong imaginable. And if there's nothing after death, well... you really won't care!

[wdlove]

Life on earth can be difficult at times. I would find it very sad to think that there wasn't something better ahead. To me my belief in God is something that is always there to sustain in good and bad times. My life here on earth is very brief, but after death is for an eternity.

[jayscheuerle]

I would find it very sad to think that there wasn't something better ahead.

By the time you find out, you'll either just be dead-meat (and therefore not so sad–or happy for that matter) or there will be something better! Unless of course, there's something worse, but I don't think many Mac users have to worry about that.. ;)

I try to grab something great out of everyday (perhaps I'm hedging my bets). I guess I'm afraid that if I was counting on something better in the afterlife, I'd be less likely to make the most of my time here.

[mpw]

Great thread. I not going to try and compete with some of the sound observation before me but this is a subject I've argued so many times (with people who call themselves Christians usually).

I believe in no God. I believe that all religion has stemmed from those wielding power wanting to control the masses with stories of how bad it's gonna be when they die if they don't do as they're told.

Religions were formed by people wanting control and power over the actions and lives of others. In many cases those extolling the virtues of 'being a good Christian' did so in good faith but talked up heaven and hell in the greatest marketing scam ever.

I don't dislike anyone because they're Christians/Jew/Muslim/whatever but I REALLY dislike any religion that tries to control me under the threat of lies.

I think it's time those who have faith accept it's their faith and stop expecting others to follow just because that's the way it's always been. Why should I live somewhere where the Christian church gets a place in government just because years ago the Christians TOOK power. Why can't I shop on a Sunday the same as a Monday?

Oh yeah the mortality question. Yeah I've considered mortality. I've faced death a few times and got away with it but accept that one time I won't. When that times comes it'll be a pain in the arse as there'll still be stuff I'll be wanting to do. But hey that's life.

[*Y*]

To all people who say that God is only a belief, how do yo know? In fact what you say, "that there is no God, no afterlife", thats a believe also, isn't it? So we all are believers in our only little ways. :D

[igucl]

As a side note: the miracle of the amazing water molecule is enough evidence for me

[scem0]

To all people who say that God is only a belief, how do yo know? In fact what you say, "that there is no God, no afterlife", thats a believe also, isn't it? So we all are believers in our only little ways. :D

True. But believing there is no God is much different than believing in one and devoting your life to this God.

As a side note: the miracle of the amazing water molecule is enough evidence for me


How do you connect the water molecule to the God of christianity? Or any God for that matter.

I find it to be amazing, but certainly not a clue to which religion has the 'real' God(s), if any of them do.

scem0

[*Y*]

Evolution.

And please note that I am talking about God, not god(s). And yes, I am fully and confidently denying that the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God exists at all. It is just simply illogical to believe in a God like that, who have feelings, yet omnipotent, who is infinite, yet cares about everyone, who causes floods on this one planet out of millions to teach humans, who picks humans to nurture out of millions of species on earth and elsewhere. And still call him omnipotent? And don't give me "That's faith!", because that's bull. A life unexamined is a life not worth living. And if you examine just a tiny bit, you will almost immediately find contradictions in the religions that believe in the God of the Bible.

First of all I would like to say that the whole Evolutionary Theory is bull. Here look around on this site (http://www.drdino.com).
Second I would love for you to show me what contradictions you are talking about.

[*Y*]

True. But believing there is no God is much different than believing in one and devoting your life to this God.




How do you connect the water molecule to the God of christianity? Or any God for that matter.

I find it to be amazing, but certainly not a clue to which religion has the 'real' God(s), if any of them do.

scem0

Hey, what it comes down to is: either the Universe created itself or somebody created it. If it created itself thats scary, because we are flying through nothingness at a really fast speed with nothing controlling us. If somebody created the universe, its even more scary because it proves there is a God.

[brap]

First of all I would like to say that the whole Evolutionary Theory is bull. Here look around on this site (http://www.drdino.com).
Second I would love for you to show me what contradictions you are talking about.
Firstly, a site which is entitled 'Creation science evangelism' (my italics) is certain to have a slightly skewed viewpoint.

Secondly, it's quite disappointing that your input has shifted this thread toward the political creationist/evolutionist argument - this belongs in Political. Oh, wait, neither you, not igucl can post in Political, can you?

Thirdly, nothing you say here will convert anybody. Quit it already.

[scem0]

First of all I would like to say that the whole Evolutionary Theory is bull. Here look around on this site (http://www.drdino.com).
Second I would love for you to show me what contradictions you are talking about.

Let's not start evolution vs creation. There are enough threads devoted (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=23199) to this already. (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=11972).

I will resist posting anything about it... even though I really want to. ;)

scem0

[takao]

First of all I would like to say that the whole Evolutionary Theory is bull. Here look around on this site (http://www.drdino.com).
Second I would love for you to show me what contradictions you are talking about.

hehe thanks for that link ...put a nice,big smile on my face ....

[zimv20]

Hey, what it comes down to is: either the Universe created itself or somebody created it.
read the last chapter of stephen hawking's A Brief History of Time. it's called (iirc) "Is the Universe a Free Lunch?" and explains exactly how the universe could have created itself.

[jefhatfield]

Let's not start evolution vs creation.

I will resist posting anything about it... even though I really want to. ;)

scem0

the most intelligent answer i have ever heard concerning evolutionism vs. creationism is that evolution, in the way we know it, is true for the most part, but it's a process that god started...look at the amazing twists and turns in evolution...now how can that be random chance? it is a design from a higher power...in other words, god

the man in question who had both these beliefs was both a graduate student of marine biology and a seminary student...he totally defends science yet supports christ as his lord and savior and has no problem with that...being a scientist and a christian are not in conflict...some scientists believe in christ and some don't...some non-scientists believe in christ and some don't

to believe that a jewish man from 2,000 years ago was messiah does not automatically cancel out theories by darwin, galileo, and einstein...somebody/some church power had it in their mind that proving the world was not flat or the center of the universe was somehow detrimental to the church...but i don't recall christ saying the world is 4,000-6,000 years old or that the world is as flat as a board ;)

natural selection happens...it has been observed...and christ rose from the dead and that also has been observed

[skunk]

It strikes me that God is very under-employed: six days work in five billion years? Doesn't s/he get bored?

[mactastic]

Bigfoot and Nessie have been 'observed' too. What does that prove? Can those observations be repeated? If not, what kind of proof is that?

In response to the original question about my own mortality... There can be only one!

[skunk]

Keep pondering. But don't give up the day job... ;)

[jefhatfield]

Bigfoot and Nessie have been 'observed' too. What does that prove? Can those observations be repeated? If not, what kind of proof is that?

In response to the original question about my own mortality... There can be only one!

i admit i was not around when christ was crucified and rose from the dead, but there are many accounts of christ coming back...it's not just some account of one person without an alibi

as far as natural selection, or better yet, why different species have disappeared (due to man encroaching on nature) has been observed and it's a fairly accepted consensus

as for my faith in christ, i cannot prove it scientifically but that's why christianity, bhuddism, islam, etc are faiths...there are writings and reports but none of it has been captured on videotape

now let's say some atheist doesn't believe in god through faith but then believes in god if he sees an image of the virgin mary on a piece of toast...then all the more power to him for finding faith that way...some people have even reported having met god or struck by light/lightning and thus had an experience to prove god to them...who am i to say what it takes to make a non believer a believer?

i would like absolute proof of god the same way a lot of things are proven in physics and chemistry...but so far, that's not the case

[skunk]

You concede that your belief in God is unsubstantiated, yet you are willing to have life or death decisions made on the basis of one dogma amongst many dogmata which presuppose the truth of such a rumour.
In your general, and admirable, acceptance of the equal validity of the faith of adherents of other religions (I class Buddhism as a philosophy), you neglect to say what happens when they come into conflict: whose side is God on then?

As for historicity, there are certainly many verifiable contemporary accounts of Mohammed. There are none of Jesus.

[mactastic]

How many accounts are there? I only know of one myself. Maybe 4 if you count each gospel seperately. (I think they all tell the crucifixian story?)

Besides, you can't trust something that was an oral tradition not written down until much later. Haven't you ever played 'telephone'? Do we believe the Greek writings that claim Zeus sprang from someone's forehead?

I'm not trying to diss your faith, just pointing out that for some of us it's not an accepted fact that Jesus' body was clinically dead for 3 days and then it wasn't.

[skunk]

Do we believe the Greek writings that claim Zeus sprang from someone's forehead?
Um, no. We don't. Athena from Zeus' forehead, more like. The first example of parthenogenesis.

[mactastic]

Um, no. We don't. Athena from Zeus' forehead, more like. The first example of parthenogenesis.

Oh yea.... It's been a while since I've read any Greek mythology.

How about Turtolitarianism instead?

[skunk]

How about Turtolitarianism instead?
Is that the Hindu creation story? :D

You know, balancing on the back of a Turtol...

[mactastic]

Is that the Hindu creation story? :D

You know, balancing on the back of a Turtol...

Similar... except this turtle is authoritarian. :p

[skunk]

A strict Hindu, then?

[Desertrat]

Goin' back to the original question:

Hey, when ya hit 70, it's hard not to ponder a bit on mortality! High school reunions get smaller and smaller. A dose of cancer tosses a bit of interest into the subject.

What it is, is, you don't dwell on it. You don't spend a lot of time looking back, although the good memories can indeed be fun to contemplate and talk about.

I've always been pretty happy with my own little piece of the world. I've always taken my work seriously, but I don't take myself seriously. Doing some good for my community and my neighbors has always involved social enjoyment, so I've never really worried about any duty aspect of being helpful.

Nobody lives forever. Fact. So, keep the bills paid and go have fun...

:), 'Rat

"Don't take life seriously. It won't last forever."

[Xtremehkr]

I was most scared of death around 10 or 11. But after a while, I figured that there is not a lot a person can do about it except to make the most of the living part. Which is not always easy either but I am not afraid of death, even as I get older. It's an inevitability, though your physical being is constantly recycled on a healthy planet. The cycle of life and death is endless, but unfortunately we progress through death and birth.

I believe there is no god, I don't see the point of hanging around for eternity, the whole reason life is a challenge is because we have a limited amount of time and set goals to achieve. What the **** would someone do for an eternity? If there is no god, you'll never know, cause when you die there is no coming back to confirm one way or the other.

How long can you fear the inevitable before you let it go and move on.

[zimv20]

my 5 year old nephew came up w/ this gem a few days ago: "I hope I die soon, so I can go to heaven as a child."

i smiled smugly as my mom and sister tried to explain to him why he shouldn't feel that way. "a little too much indoctrination" is what i was thinking.

maybe i'll wait until he's 6 to let him know that not believing is an option. my sister wouldn't be terribly happy with me, though.

[Zaid]

To all people who say that God is only a belief, how do yo know? In fact what you say, "that there is no God, no afterlife", thats a believe also, isn't it? So we all are believers in our only little ways. :D

No, not quite.

I was listening to the Salmon of Doubt this morning on the way into work (to be got on iTunes for the interested) and was specifically listening to an interview Douglas Adams gave to American Atheist in which he answered just this point considerably more eloquently than I could. Coincidence n'est pas?

This is what he had to say:



Other people will ask how I can possibly claim to know? Isn’t belief-that-there-is-not-a-god as irrational, arrogant, etc., as belief-that-there-is-a-god? To which I say no for several reasons.

First of all I do not believe-that-there-is-not-a-god. I don’t see what belief has got to do with it. I believe or don’t believe my four-year old daughter when she tells me that she didn’t make that mess on the floor. I believe in justice and fair play (though I don’t know exactly how we achieve them, other than by continually trying against all possible odds of success). I also believe that England should enter the European Monetary Union. I am not remotely enough of an economist to argue the issue vigorously with someone who is, but what little I do know, reinforced with a hefty dollop of gut feeling, strongly suggests to me that it’s the right course. I could very easily turn out to be wrong, and I know that. These seem to me to be legitimate uses for the word believe.
As a carapace for the protection of irrational notions from legitimate questions, however, I think that the word has a lot of mischief to answer for. So, I do not believe-that-there-is-no-god. I am, however, convinced that there is no god, which is a totally different stance and takes me on to my second reason.

I don’t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” - then I can’t even be bothered to argue.

There is such a thing as the burden of proof, and in the case of god, as in the case of the composition of the moon, this has shifted radically. God used to be the best explanation we’d got, and we’ve now got vastly better ones. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining. So I don’t think that being convinced that there is no god is as irrational or arrogant a point of view as belief that there is.
I don’t think the matter calls for even-handedness at all.



The last point of course does not mean that one should not respect another’s right to hold any opinion. It is possible to not respect the opinion while respecting the right of someone to hold it.

[Zaid]

It strikes me that God is very under-employed: six days work in five billion years? Doesn't s/he get bored?

The corollary to which is that (s)he is probably being overpaid

[AmigoMac]

Back to topic: ;)

I saw a photoshop of a guy with a t-shirt "Jesus is coming, next Tuesday" :eek:, damn, I didn't saved it, not difficult to make, tho. but funny...

...

About mortality... I think we will have a better time "at the other side", a teacher in the Uni said once: believe in God, if there is not, no problem, if there is one, you're saved...

I believe in me, myself, I alone, I'm the only one who accepts or rejects what I read, hear about religion and similar topics... I know you too ;)
but I wanted to add to my previous comment on this:

I don't believe in death at all, you just change the way your energy is...
never created, never destroyed, just transformed... (that's a possibility, I will know that)

* a guy dies and 2 days later appears to his best friend...

-Hi, I'm here, tell everybody that I'm ok and this is a nice place.

-Cool, we miss you but if you're fine, I'm happy, BTW, can you use macs there?

-Yeah, sure, yours is coming tomorrow.

;)

[pseudobrit]

It never ceases to amaze me the extent to which "believers" will go to "prove" their faith and religion and convince others to ignore that which seems to disprove their teachings.

I can't quite blame nonbelievers for operating on the same level; they're merely directly countering the majority of the religious attitudes. I've yet to meet a nonbeliever who can argue with my philosophy on God: yes, I believe; it's impossible to explain why.

I'll offer this, though, to both believers and nonbelievers alike: (if he exists) do you really think the human mind can comprehend God? To operate on the same plane?

The irony is that those who attempt to defend their faith with logic, reason and junk science prove they have no faith at all.

[jayscheuerle]

The irony is that those who attempt to defend their faith with logic, reason and junk science prove they have no faith at all.

Very well put.

I'm not a believer, but I'm not a disbeliever either. I'm happily and proudly ignorant as to the truth here and couldn't care less what another person believes as long as it helps them to act like a better person. The assumption is that religion does indeed do this by providing guidelines for living, but as we've all seen, what religion often does is provide conviction without thought and righteousness without integrity. Sometimes this moves people to donate to charities or work soup kitchens, other times it moves them to abuse or kill.

Good people can be believers or non-believers or unaffiliated types such as myself. If you need to have a faith, great! If you operate fine without one, that's great as well! Just know that the world as we know it will judge us by our actions, regardless of their motivating factors. Be good, be fair, and getting back to the original topic of conversation, enjoy the ride!

[Zaid]

It never ceases to amaze me the extent to which "believers" will go to "prove" their faith and religion and convince others to ignore that which seems to disprove their teachings.

I can't quite blame nonbelievers for operating on the same level; they're merely directly countering the majority of the religious attitudes. I've yet to meet a nonbeliever who can argue with my philosophy on God: yes, I believe; it's impossible to explain why.

I'll offer this, though, to both believers and nonbelievers alike: (if he exists) do you really think the human mind can comprehend God? To operate on the same plane?

The irony is that those who attempt to defend their faith with logic, reason and junk science prove they have no faith at all.

To quote the old line, faith is something which, if you have it requires no explanation, and if you don't, can't be explained.

I don't believe. Others do and as long as they don't force it onto me, i'm fine with that.

Now i recognise that faith can be a powerful and beautiful sustaining force but you can't coerce people into having faith, so why try?

There's a passage in the Qur'aan that's influenced my thinking on this quite alot. It goes, "let there be no compulsion in faith/religion".
Words of wisdom, whoever wrote them.

[jayscheuerle]

There's a passage in the Qur'aan that's influenced my thinking on this quite alot. It goes, "let there be no compulsion in faith/religion".
Words of wisdom, whoever wrote them.

Not a theologist here, but isn't the idea behind Islam that the Qur'aan is the direct word of God as revealed to Muhammad? Of course, you've offered a translation as God spoke in Arabic poetry so beautiful that it caused all Muslims to give up writing poetry as their words could never compete!

[Zaid]

Not a theologist here, but isn't the idea behind Islam that the Qur'aan is the direct word of God as revealed to Muhammad? Of course, you've offered a translation as God spoke in Arabic poetry so beautiful that it caused all Muslims to give up writing poetry as their words could never compete!

True, Muslims believe the Qur'aan is the direct word of god, i don't believe in the existance of god, hence 'whoever wrote them'

And no, muslims did not give up poetry after the revelation of the Qur'aan. The Qur'aan was just held as the most perfect use of the Arabic language, and it is often astoundingly beautiful poetry.

Muslims regard the Qur'aan itself as a miracle, and the perfection of the language as evidence of its divine authorship.
(as an aside the Qur'aan actually says something along the lines of

Or do they say: "He has forged it"? Say: "Bring then a Surah (verse) like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can besides Allah, if you are truthful!."

fighting words huh? :)

[pdham]

As for historicity, there are certainly many verifiable contemporary accounts of Mohammed. There are none of Jesus.

This is not entirely accurate

Roman Historian, Senetor, consul and governor to the province of Asia and anit - Christian Cornelius Tacitus wrote in the The Annals of Imperial Rome (109 AD) "Nero...punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originatoe, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius' reign by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate. But in spite of this temporary setback, the deadly superstition had broken out afresh, not only in Judea but even in Rome."

Also Julian the Apostate (who rejected Christianity) wrote "Jesus, whom you celebrate, was one of Caesar's subgjects. If you dispute it, I will prove it by and by..."

Jews also wrote of Him. Historian Flavius Josephus mentions Christ and John the Baptist, and the Jewish Encyclopedia explains that Jesus is mentioned in sections of the Talmud

Now, while none of these are direct contemporaries of Jesus, it would be logical to assume that the Roman Scholars and politicians Tacitus and Julian, being entusiastically opposed to the spread of Christianity, would have loved to disprove Jesus's existence. Expecially in the case of Tacitus, writting only 70 years after Jesus's death and with complete acess to the Roman records, he should have been in the perfect place to factually dispute the existence of Jesus. But instead he is writes about Him as having actually existed. If Jesus was not a real person why couldnt Tacitus prove that by examining the records of the very people that put Christ to death. With much to gain politically I might add by proving the very disruptive Christians to be the spreaders of fantasy.

There are other accounts from non-Christians as well
Paul

[skunk]

This is not entirely accurate
Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Tacitus. Close enough to be reliable, I agree. Josephus I'd be more wary of.

Actually, since the Annals were published in c.115AD, Tacitus was pipped to the post by Pliny the Younger, who wrote to Trajan about the "Christian Problem" when Governor of Bithynia in 111-113AD...

[mactastic]

No arguments that Jesus was a man who lived around the time most Christians claim, roughly 2000 years ago. But do any of those writings prove he had any supernatural powers, or offer anything in the way of proof that he rose from the dead after being executed?

[skunk]

No arguments that Jesus was a man who lived around the time most Christians claim, roughly 2000 years ago. But do any of those writings prove he had any supernatural powers, or offer anything in the way of proof that he rose from the dead after being executed?
What on earth would serve as "proof"?

[mactastic]

What on earth would serve as "proof"?


Exactly. Proving Jesus existed is far different from proving he was the son of God born of a virgin.

How about a glass of wine, circa 30AD or so? ;)

[takao]

But do any of those writings prove he had any supernatural powers, or offer anything in the way of proof that he rose from the dead after being executed?

my answer would be: i think it doesn't really matter ...

i remeber an article in the german "GEO" a year ago (?) focused on "the historic person jesus"
was perhaps the best/most interesting/most objectiv i've read about him..

[jayscheuerle]

What on earth would serve as "proof"?

And such is the circle.

If there was proof, one wouldn't need faith...

[skunk]

my answer would be: i think it doesn't really matter ...

i remeber an article in the german "GEO" a year ago (?) focused on "the historic person jesus"
was perhaps the best/most interesting/most objectiv i've read about him..
I don't think it matters either. He was evidently an absolutely extraordinary person, teacher and exemplar, whose example and whose philosophy were and are hard to fault. It's a great shame the Christian church had to spoil it all and insist on his divinity.

[blackfox]

So when does Gandhi get his Religion?

Out of curiousity, I know that both Islam and Judaism are complimentary of Jesus, even if they do not accept his Divinity. What is Christianitys stance towards Muhammed (Judaism and Christianity agree with exception of Jesus)?

[mactastic]

So when does Gandhi get his Religion?

Out of curiousity, I know that both Islam and Judaism are complimentary of Jesus, even if they do not accept his Divinity. What is Christianitys stance towards Muhammed (Judaism and Christianity agree with exception of Jesus)?


I believe it was Falwell who called Muhammed a terrorist.

[blackfox]

I believe it was Falwell who called Muhammed a terrorist.
Well, I do not consider Falwell indicative of anything, except perhaps fanaticism. Certainly not of Christianity.

[skunk]

So when does Gandhi get his Religion?
Can we distinguish between "religion" (literally "a tying back") and "philosophy" (a love of wisdom)?

Out of curiousity, I know that both Islam and Judaism are complimentary of Jesus, even if they do not accept his Divinity. What is Christianitys stance towards Muhammed (Judaism and Christianity agree with exception of Jesus)?
Judaism and Christianity certainly do not "agree with the exception of Jesus". There are details like racial exclusivity, maternal bloodlines, diet, observance.

[skunk]

This might be useful:
http://www.bohra.net/archive/islam_america.html
An average American is unaware of the fact that every fifth person on earth, i.e. almost one billion people in total, are Muslims; more than 40 countries are predominantly Islamic, Arabs being less than 20% of the total Muslim population.

The largest number of Muslims, 150 million, are Indonesians. Then there are 20 million Chinese, 55 million Russians, 100 million Indians, 95 million Pakistanis, and 90 million Bangladeshis. And millions upon millions Africans who live in Nigeria, Mali, Sudan, Algeria, and Morocco and adhere to the religion of Islam. Islam is a global phenomenon, embracing in its fold over 4000 ethnic groups.

It is unknown to most Americans that Muslims were the torch bearers in the fields of arts, sciences, medicine, agriculture, architecture, philosophy, literature and mysticism, while a greater part of Europe was submerged in the Dark Ages. The American public rarely comes to know the closeness of Islam to Christianity and Judaism; and the commonalities among the three major monotheistic religions are seldom brought to light.

Therefore, to allow ourselves to form a dreadful or disgraceful image of Islam, as most often the case is in America, would constitute an extremely unfair and regrettable attitude towards the second largest religion on earth. It would be as if some one tries to understand Christianity by reading the news of what is happening politically and religiously in Northern Ireland or of apartheid in South Africa. It would be like attempting to understand the teachings of Jesus Christ through reading about hundreds of tragic and bloody wars fought among the European Christian nations. It would be highly inappropriate to dwell on racism, lynching, witch-hunting, and The Inquisition in order to understand the true teachings of Torah and the Gospels.

It would be like finding fault with Christianity and Judaism by reading news about the horrible stories of murder, rape, child abuse, incest, teenage pregnancies, AIDS, alcoholism and drug abuse - the evils that infest Judeo-Christian modern Western societies.

The problem of Islam being misunderstood in America has its deep roots in the anti-Islamic attitude taken by the Western medieval writers and clergymen. Dr. Philip K. Hitti, a foremost Arabic scholar, historian and a former chairman of Princeton's Department of Oriental Studies, writes in his book "Islam and the West" that in medieval literature "the prophet (of Islam) is generally displayed as an imposter, a false prophet, the Koran as his pretentious fabrication and Islam as a licentious way of life, both here and the next world." Dr. Hitti further states:

"Zoroastrianism, Buddhism and other less highly developed religions were never subjected to such a barrage of abuse and condemnation as Mohammadanism was.

They posed no threat to the Medieval West and offered no competition. It was therefore primarily fear, hostility and prejudice that colored the Western view of Islam and conditioned its attitude. Islamic beliefs were enemy' beliefs and, as such, suspect if not false."

(ISLAM AND THE WEST : pp48-49, Philip K. Hitti: 1962).


In concurrence with Dr. Hitti's evaluation of Western attitude towards Islam, Dr. George N. Malek, a United Methodist minister, writes in his article entitled "Confessional Theology: The Way to Dialogue between Christianity and Islam",

"The Christian West has traditionally seen Islam through Dante's eye: "The Inferno".

Dante placed Muslim philosophers alongside Greek ones in the moderate punishment quarters of Hell. But to Muhammad, the Muslim prophet, he assigned the ninth of the ten ditches in Hell, leaving the Heart of Hell -- the tenth ditch -- to Satan himself. But it was upon Muhammad that the most sadistic punishment was to be inflicted, not Satan. Dante, as Christian history shows, advocated a more fierce struggle against Islam than against the "Christian" devil himself. Dante, then, and we, now, in the west, saw Islam not as a religion, but as a life of licentiousness ... It is in this context that Islam is still viewed by European attitudes, subverted by American misconceptions, to be heresy derived from Christian teachings, borrowed by Muhammad from the Monk Bahira. In the west, Muhammad's religious success is seldom ascribed to his divine revelation; it is more to his approval of "licentious living." Accordingly, for much of the past history, and up to the middle of the twentieth century, we, in the West, regarded Islam as a religion that also acknowledges the one true God; in fact the same (Christian) God, Creator of the Universe. But Islam distinguished itself by its denial of the Christian doctrine of trinity.

[mactastic]

Well, I do not consider Falwell indicative of anything, except perhaps fanaticism. Certainly not of Christianity.

Nor do I, but I hear a lot of people saying similar things. How many times have we heard people say that Islam is a violent religion? How often have we heard little or no distinction between Muslim and terrorist? How many Sikhs were harassed, beaten, or killed since 9/11?

[blackfox]

Can we distinguish between "religion" (literally "a tying back") and "philosophy" (a love of wisdom)?


Judaism and Christianity certainly do not "agree with the exception of Jesus". There are details like racial exclusivity, maternal bloodlines, diet, observance.
Good points mate. I am guilty of the sin of over-simplification. My apologies.

[blackfox]

How many Sikhs were harassed, beaten, or killed since 9/11?
I am not sure if you meant this to be a separate but comparable point, but Sikhs are not Muslims, they are Sikhs, adherents of one of the oldest Religions of India. Perhaps an unnecessary clarification, I am not sure...

[zimv20]

I am not sure if you meant this to be a separate but comparable point, but Sikhs are not Muslims, they are Sikhs, adherents of one of the oldest Religions of India. Perhaps an unnecessary clarification, I am not sure...
i believe he was pointing out that, due to ignorance, anger at muslims has been directed at non-muslims.

[daveL]

In answer to the original topic: Yes, I have pondered my mortality. We all die, like everything in our world does (maybe you haven't noticed)? No, we aren't special, in this regard. People die, just like everything else, get it? Just because we have opposing thumbs and an elaborate spoken and written language does not mean we somehow, magically (religion) escape the fate of every other living thing in the universe. Accept death; it's part of life (duh).

[mactastic]

I am not sure if you meant this to be a separate but comparable point, but Sikhs are not Muslims, they are Sikhs, adherents of one of the oldest Religions of India. Perhaps an unnecessary clarification, I am not sure...

Zim has it right, I'M aware of the difference, but due to ignorance many became victims of people who assumed incorrectly that anyone wearing a turban is not only a muslim but a terrorist.

And I missed the part earlier where it was mentioned that describing your faith is impossible. Looking at the foundations of Taoism, you learn that it can be learned, but not taught. The basic idea is that the Tao that can be named is not the real thing. The best you can do is talk about it with regards to things in this world.

I find that to be a very good way of looking at religion. If there is something out there, it is so far beyond our ability to comprehend that we couldn't possibly name it or describe it to anyone. Of course, Taoism is also a very humble and (outside of it's martial aspects) non-threatening with little regard for $250 million worship facilities...

[Xtremehkr]

If there is only God, why are there so many different sects?

[zimv20]

If there is only God, why are there so many different sects?
because missionary sects all the time gets boring?

[Xtremehkr]

:D or cause humanity has always thrived on competition and diversity creating that competition. Could it be?

[Zaid]

If there is only God, why are there so many different sects?

This question brings back memories :)

I remember asking the teacher at religious school (an hour after regular school till I was 16 :eek: ) this same question.

The lesson that day had been about respect for other religions. And I remember the answer i got. I was told that since god is infinite, we can't fully conceive of him. So god created many religions so that different aspects of him could be understood and so that humanity could gain a better understanding of their maker. Which i thought was a nice answer

Of course the answer which i now believe is that different people made up different stories to explain the world around them

[pseudobrit]

This might be useful:
http://www.bohra.net/archive/islam_america.html
An average American is unaware of the fact that every fifth person on earth, i.e. almost one billion people in total, are Muslims; more than 40 countries are predominantly Islamic, Arabs being less than 20% of the total Muslim population.


That's because they're

a) not here
b) brown

[pseudobrit]

because missionary sects all the time gets boring?

There's a special level of Hell kept for the likes of you, punster.

Hmm. I wonder how abstinence-only sects in Jesusland works.

[pdham]

I don't think it matters either. He was evidently an absolutely extraordinary person, teacher and exemplar, whose example and whose philosophy were and are hard to fault. It's a great shame the Christian church had to spoil it all and insist on his divinity.

What evidence are you using to assume he was an extraordinary person and teacher? I must assume you are refering to his teachings as recorded in the Bible, seeing as his words are no where else. But his words in the Bible include Him stating He is the son of God. So how did you decide that the moral teachings were accurate and not His statements about divinity?

You see Jesus can't possibly be a great moral teacher and not the Son of God as He claimed. Because His teachings and his claim to divinity are intertwined in that his clout with His audience WAS the fact he claimed to be God.

So, if as you say, he was a great teacher and not the Son of God He was either lying or a lunatic.

If He was a lunatic then the complete uniformity of His statements seems odd because raving insanity would seem to be a prerequisit for his statements of divinity. Again if we are to assume that His moral teachings are historical, as you have, then we must assume that His claims to be God are historical as well because we have absolutely no evidence or way to seperate was is authentic and what is not. But it would seem strange that so many people that witnessed Jesus would follow Him if in fact He was crazy enough to actual believe He was divine. Many of His followers spent 24 hours a day with Him, they would have noticed the insanity. His life however does not paint the strokes of an insane man with a sever God complex.

Secondly he could have known He wasnt God which would make him a liar, and an evil one at that. If Jesus was lying He would of seen that people were believing in His statements of the utmost weight - life, death, and eternal life. That would mean that He was literally ripping people out of their homes, making them mortal enemies of the state all with the knowledge that He was not who He said He was. I am sure you would agree that someone with these motives would not be a great teacher.

Note: this was taken from C.S. Lewis, not my own. (although I am sure Lewis articulated it much more succinctly.)

[jayscheuerle]

Wow pdham.. Interesting, and sure to raise a few hackles, but I must say that believing yourself to be the Son of God does not preclude you being lucid in all other ways. Not need to be a RAVING lunatic, maybe just "touched"... by an angel perhaps? ;)

Personally, I think we have to take a document that is used as a religious guidebook pretty lightly in terms of history. Accuracy surely gave way to the necessity of getting an idea or point across.

By all accounts though, most english-speaking people's reference of the Bible is severely flawed through poor translation of the most historical texts. For example, we think of Mary as a "virgin", but the correct translation is actually "young woman". Imagine the other inaccuracies which people cling to in a misguided fashion.

[mpw]

...By all accounts though, most english-speaking people's reference of the Bible is severely flawed through poor translation of the most historical texts. For example, we think of Mary as a "virgin", but the correct translation is actually "young woman". Imagine the other inaccuracies which people cling to in a misguided fashion.

Well put.

12(give or take) guys wandering around the globe from town to town telling stories about some seemingly super-human they once knew.

Decades later the stories are amalgameted into a single book and edited at the time. Each copy of that text has flaws and is probably edited each time. Eventually some copied and edited edited copies are translated from ancient language to modern versions and then from modern to foreign.

Is it any wonder the story's been lost.

I can't understnad why so many people today still fall for it and seem so willing to fight under the banner of religion (any religion) to me they just don't make any sense and I find them, and many of the followers an afront to my intelligence.

For the poster who asked why so many sects? I believe each new religion was started by somebody simply to gain control over the masses and to profit from them.

[jefhatfield]

it's so funny how my thread on aging and realizing one's mortality has turned into a political and religious thread :)

i do love political and religious threads, and i started quite a few, but how do you people feel about getting older, seeing your kids grow up, and ponder leaving a legacy for the world you will ultimately leave behind?

most likely, your country has done more for you that you have for your country/community...how do you plan to give back?

help the poor
spca/aspca
volunteer fireman
church or religious organization
salvation army
soup kitchen
united way
red cross
public radio/tv
teach english or another skill
non violent protests
political action committee

etc...

[Desertrat]

I guess you build the "giving back" into your daily life. Add to your list the little things that make people think better of others, like holding doors or yielding in traffic. Smile at casual eye-meetings. These little habits can grow into more serious or significant things.

My own version of charitable giving has included looking for somebody who could use a "good-used", but no longer needed, tool but maybe can't afford it. "Here; I don't really need this and maybe you can use it." Other stuff, too.

A good many folks know of the general low-money status of my area, and I'm sort of a regular supplier of clothing or small furniture or TVs or whatever to local folks. No big deal, but it helps them. Same for stuff to the Padre for his missionary work across the River...

I dunno. No big deals in my life. I just sorta ease along, doing some small bit to make life easier for those around me...

'Rat

[neut]

I think most of you would be interested in this (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1300006#post1300006) and all of you should watch it ...


peace.