Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

RalfTheDog

macrumors 68020
Feb 23, 2010
2,115
1,869
Lagrange Point
If Apple had no more growth, their stock would be undervalued. A normal PE in a non tech industry is around 20. For a tech stock, it runs closer to 30 (32 would not be out of the question). Apple has a P/E of only 16. If Apple growth stopped today, their valuation would be twice what their stock is selling for. Don't put all your money in Apple, or any stock, however, Apple is not overvalued.
 

lightmyway

macrumors member
Jan 11, 2007
95
113
Surely this will have to crash at some point... no offense to Apple but this seems almost too high.

At some point its growth will slow. There might even be a big dip if there is a scare and the amateur investors bail. But AAPL is positioned for continued growth over the next few years, and then either a long time of stability before decline, or continued growth because of some innovation from the soul of Jonny Ive & Co.
 

scott911

macrumors 6502a
Aug 24, 2009
758
456
Anyone got a time machine? Would love to go back a few years...

a few years would be cool - but even a single month (500 to 600 rise) would be cool. 30 days ago, most people, myself included, would have through that gain wouldn't have been possible.

congrats to the investors... but hopefully those folks still trust in diversification... [/I]
 

Unspeaked

macrumors 68020
Dec 29, 2003
2,448
1
West Coast
Apple has a PE of 16.79. That is low for a non tech company. For a tech company, that is unimaginably low. Apple's one year PEG is 0.65. Anything below 1 is good. 0.9 is very good. 0.8 is insanely good. 0.65 put Apple in the category of, one of the most undervalued companies in the history of stock markets.

You can't just spout of PE and PEGs as you've been doing. If it were as simple as crunching numbers, everyone would be a market millionaire.

Intel and Microsoft both have better PE/PEG than Apple. Are you suggesting people should buy them over Apple?
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
Partially true. I agree AAPL is grossly overvalued, and that bubble will likely pop sometime in the next couple years. However, I disagree on your assessment of what an "investment strategy" should be. The most important thing an investor can do is diversify, not just across multiple companies, but across multiple markets as well, the idea being that markets increase in value over time. So if you invest in a dozen markets and hold onto that stock for 50 years, you're safer and likely to net a reasonable sum when you cash in. Dumping all your money into one company, as one poster claims he did, is too risky, no matter how well performing that company is/you expect it to be.

I agree with diversification, but there are other components to that. You could be in 25 different industries and have used all the worst metrics to identify buying prices... Listening to what the market says would be a big mistake. People in groups tend to behave stupidly. Ignore them.

What I haven't really jumped into is the strict fundamentals of arriving at a sensible business valuation. One other poster here gave a gut feeling response of "if you have the money, go for it" or something to that effect... but that isn't really an investment strategy either.

"Buy low, sell high" isn't either... Sounds catchy, but what's it mean? Buy "low" relative to what? Relative to what the idiots on the market had been paying for the past year, three years?

If you approach every business valuation conservatively, you'll minimize your risk whether you're in 5 industries or 200. What I'm saying isn't, for example, that Apple is never a good investment. I'm more or less saying "At $385 per share, Apple was underpriced. That would have been a shrewd acquisition at the time, given all the other factors."

There are a number of other factors that play a part, including but not limited to, the competitive moat, soundness of management, and consistency of operating cash flows... Even the nature of the underlying business isn't all that important if the other bases are covered, as Walter Schloss can tell you. It doesn't matter that Berkshire is in a different business than Apple. They have the right ingredients to be successful in their industry, and to continue doing so for quite some time.

After that analysis, the only question that remains is your degree of risk aversion, which is covered by what Graham calls a "Margin of Safety". If I estimate a company's value to be x, and it's priced at 1.5x, I'll wait... maybe until it's 0.9x, or 0.7x, by way of some general market momentum that incorrectly priced the asset below their intrinsic value even though operating results haven't declined... THAT's an opportunity, and that, combined with sector diversification, competent research and weighting the volume of investments in accordance with minimizing exposure of principal to risk of loss are all components of a sound investment strategy.

And it's not rocket science... the chartists love to make it rocket science, overcomplicating it with bogus formulae, so they can sell you ideas that don't actually work (all with the fine print that says, in effect, that there's no guarantee their formulas work... which tells you they don't). But true business valuation is not rocket science. It's some work... and I think that ultimately is what scares people who have only been living since the bubbles of the 80s and 90s and not really seen the broader behavior of the indices over longer periods of time.
 

lightmyway

macrumors member
Jan 11, 2007
95
113
Just ask yourself how different Apple is today than last month? Is it really worth $100 more a share than it was at the beginning of February? How much has the business changed? We all knew the iPhone was going well. We all knew the iPad was getting updated.

Or since January? Is Apple 50% better today than it was in January? Because the stock's jumped from $400 to $600 since then. Is it justified?

The answer to your questions is YES. AAPL has been undervalued for a long time. Fear of Steve's death kept it artificially low, and now that the market has the confidence of performance (astounding quarterly results) and leadership (Tim's speech at Goldman Sachs), that artificial ceiling has been lifted and we are seeing the stock get closer to its real market value.
 

scott911

macrumors 6502a
Aug 24, 2009
758
456
i WAS a visionary!

note to DAN G.

remember me, your roommate at rit in '89?

You were a :apple:MAC:apple: geek ( big time, a little scary) - and had no tolerance for my Radio Shack (Tandy) hardware.

I just remembered I gave you, sort of as a gag gift, a couple shares of AAPL.
Damn - if you kept it, that's no joke now!
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
The answer to your questions is YES. AAPL has been undervalued for a long time. Fear of Steve's death kept it artificially low, and now that the market has the confidence of performance (astounding quarterly results) and leadership (Tim's speech at Goldman Sachs), that artificial ceiling has been lifted and we are seeing the stock get closer to its real market value.

Show me the math.
 

Designx

macrumors regular
Mar 15, 2012
194
209
It Wont Last

I expect the economy and the country to take a turn to the much worse likely by the end of the year. The amount of debt and money printing will take a toll on the entire economy. We are living on 'borrowed' time.
Necessities like gas and food will trump any other purchases as those items will get much more expensive. The rich may be able to continue to buy Apple products but it's truly the middle class that allow our economy to thrive.

Apple will survive but there will be a huge bump in the road until we get out of pain we all have to go through before things start to get better.
 

lightmyway

macrumors member
Jan 11, 2007
95
113
Show me the math.

Look at the P/E ratio compared to other companies, and the amount of cash on hand– cash is often looked down on by the market, but we will continue to see the company making small investments with it to streamline and cut costs in their supply line, and one day they will make a BIG move with that cash too.
 

JediZenMaster

Suspended
Mar 28, 2010
2,180
654
Seattle
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9B179 Safari/7534.48.3)

aurichie said:
What goes up must come down.

Funny how no one makes comments like this about googles stock price.
 

Chupa Chupa

macrumors G5
Jul 16, 2002
14,835
7,396
The answer to your questions is YES. AAPL has been undervalued for a long time. Fear of Steve's death kept it artificially low, and now that the market has the confidence of performance (astounding quarterly results) and leadership (Tim's speech at Goldman Sachs), that artificial ceiling has been lifted and we are seeing the stock get closer to its real market value.

Not to mention that Apple still has, according to the Jobs bio, 4 years of Jobs inspired new/updated product in the locker. So it's not like Cook and co. had to start from scratch when Jobs passed -- that could have been catastrophic. Also, the core Apple idea team minus Jobs is still in tact.

So Wall Street has a lot of positives to believe Apple's growth will continue at a feverish pace. Tomorrow's launch of the iPad in 10 countries, and virtually guaranteed sell out soon after only bolsters the signs that Apple isn't nearly finished it's growth pace. The next iPhone launch will surely be just as frenzied, and still big mystery whether we'll see an all-new Apple product this year.
 

pdc123

macrumors newbie
Mar 17, 2009
28
0
I disagree. By every M&A level analysis I've done of the enterprise, it's overvalued by more than $100 per share. I use a similar method of DCF analysis that Warren Buffett uses, and it seems to work out pretty well for him and every other acquisitive investor who follows Graham's basic principles which seem like common sense to anyone rooted in a finance education but can be daunting for the average person for whom meaningless ratios (e.g. P/E) are much more attractive because they offer the appearance of an answer with no real work.

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_20173602/biz-break-apple-shares-record-goldman-sachs-zynga

http://seekingalpha.com/article/435871-apple-arguments-against-a-dividend-stock-split-and-buyback

http://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2012/03/12/apple-above-550/

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2012/03/05/businessinsiderapple-is-certainly-u.DTL

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...etitors-in-the-dust-canaccord/article2369126/

http://seekingalpha.com/article/387001-apple-2-steps-to-boost-share-price

When Warren Buffet goes public with a statement saying Apple is overvalued, I'll perk my ears, but without third party citing sources of some kind (your own awesomeness does not count), we don't have any reason to take your word for it.
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402
Look at the P/E ratio compared to other companies, and the amount of cash on hand– cash is often looked down on by the market, but we will continue to see the company making small investments with it to streamline and cut costs in their supply line, and one day they will make a BIG move with that cash too.

P/E ratio doesn't tell you what you should pay for that asset. It tells you what every other idiot was dumb enough to pay in excess of earnings. Why would you do the same as them? wouldn't you be smarter to take a more conservative estimate... Say, working capital plus operating cash flows discounted to net present value? Why not? That's been Buffett's approach for 40 years, and it's produced over 185,000% in total growth of the book value of Berkshire's investments over that period, or about 19-20% compounded annually, beating the S&P's long term average of 9.3%.

But for sake of argument, Apple's P/E is already trading at a multiple similar to not only other successful companies in tech, but other successful companies in different industries. This doesn't tell me anything important, though, because it could be that speculators tend toward a statistical average when they see a P/E that's stuck in their heads as a benchmark. The point is to go against that grain and buy when they're not looking... But right now EVERYONE is looking at Apple.

When you do the hard math on working capital and operating cash flows, Apple's value is nowhere near $600 per share. It's closer to $420-430 per share currently... and operating results haven't changed since I last did that analysis (after the last earnings call).

What I'm saying is, using Apple as the example... had you bought at $360 when their working capital and OCF put them at about $420, then held and sold to some moron willing to pay you $600... THAT would be shrewd. It would also be an unusual 40% return that should never give you the impression that such returns are consistently sustainable on the broader market, even for utter geniuses like Warren Buffett.

But, I will point out that in the current market, I've matched that return and you'll never guess what company I did it with. I'm not saying that rhetorically... it's a farming equipment company that doesn't make big headlines, but is a very solid business. That didn't take me more than 20 minutes of research to find.
 

convergent

macrumors 68040
May 6, 2008
3,034
3,082
If Apple had no more growth, their stock would be undervalued. A normal PE in a non tech industry is around 20. For a tech stock, it runs closer to 30 (32 would not be out of the question). Apple has a P/E of only 16. If Apple growth stopped today, their valuation would be twice what their stock is selling for. Don't put all your money in Apple, or any stock, however, Apple is not overvalued.


+1 - I get the feeling that a lot of people in this thread don't realize that the price of a stock in one company vs. another is meaningless since you don't know how many shares exist. The P/E ratio is an important metric, and Apple is not out of line with other tech companies. Plus, factoring in their huge cash reserve... crazy stuff. Many companies (like IBM for example) spend a lot of their cash to buy back their own stock and help drive the per share price up. Imagine if Apple tried to do that???
 

RalfTheDog

macrumors 68020
Feb 23, 2010
2,115
1,869
Lagrange Point
You can't just spout of PE and PEGs as you've been doing. If it were as simple as crunching numbers, everyone would be a market millionaire.

Intel and Microsoft both have better PE/PEG than Apple. Are you suggesting people should buy them over Apple?

Intel would be a good investment. Microsoft, I would think, gets much of it's growth from the 360. I do not see that as a long term winning strategy. If they can move into the mobile space, they may be able to keep their growth rate. I don't see it.

P/E and PEG are a good starting point. You do need to look at how well the company has sustained their numbers. You should also look at the products they produce and the future market for those products.

Apple's only real competitor is Google. Google is starting to self destruct. Much of their best talent is starting to exit the company.
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
402

So your answer is to cite sources like Seeking Alpha which publish articles from laypeople instead of business analysts who actually work inside tech corporations and produce the forecasts from the inside? All right then.

But for the record, Buffett doesn't normally make predictive statements about specific securities... because of his ability to influence the market. He also tends to stay away from tech but this year he made an exception: IBM. Now tell me why he chose IBM and not Apple.
 

Shrink

macrumors G3
Feb 26, 2011
8,929
1,727
New England, USA
I seem to remember just prior to the release of the iPhone 4s, when it was confirmed that the 4s would not have a change in form factor, there was some discussion about how the 4s was a bust, and Apple was going in the toilet.

Nice toilet...:D
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.