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Gasu E.

macrumors 603
Mar 20, 2004
5,037
3,163
Not far from Boston, MA.
Google's position is that their policy is to do no evil; therefore, anything they do isn't evil, by definition. I believe the Nazis had a similar logic.

----------

So Google is in trouble for using loopholes and circumventing security policies.
Fine.
All the while, in the thread about Apple's tax avoidance schemes we're being told that it's perfectly fine, even every company's obligation, to use every available loophole to achieve their goals and maximize their profits.

Regarding the tax avoidance issue-- EVERY U.S. company that does substantial business overseas does this. It's not just legal, it is standard business practice. The corporation is legally obligated to be working on behalf of its stockholders, and most companies do that by LEGALLY trying to minimize taxes. The right fix is to change the law, not go after companies that behave LEGALLY within the current law. Now, it should be understood that the U.S. also has one of the highest Corporate tax rates in the world, which is a further inducement to trying to minimize taxes.
 

reedmartin

macrumors regular
Apr 24, 2012
243
0
Yes. Do you know the difference between legal and ethical?

Lol ethical. Yes, all companies should pay extra taxes because it's just right! Maybe afterward, the ceos of these companies can hold hands and skip though a meadow?

That would make the world a magical, ethical happy place :)

Meanwhile in the real world...

There's no comparison between the illegal unethical thing that Google did, and the legal thing that Apple did.

Please spare me the holier then thou spiel
 

Hyper-X

macrumors 6502a
Jul 1, 2011
581
1
Go ahead and fine Google, but at what point do you say that Apple should be held accountable as well? I kind of see this as a lock manufacturer (Apple) making a sub-standard lock (Safari) and selling it to customers. An intruder (Google) breaks in to the customer's house by easily busting the sub-standard lock.

The sub-standard security doesn't make what Google did right, but at some point the customer should be looking at Apple and asking "WTF are you providing me here?"

I still think iOS is better overall than any other mobile OS around, but I'm not against holding Apple to the fire for being lax in security.

Apple at some point should be held liable for not living up to their claims of security also. They sell this image that they're better than everyone else, that their products are of the highest security and when someone shows otherwise they play the wounded animal routine calling out "foul".

They (Apple) have yet to fix an issue in mobile Safari which allows a Javascript entry to spoof an entry into its mobile address bar. Sure Apple could blame Java but no other browser suffers from this problem.
 

cvaldes

macrumors 68040
Dec 14, 2006
3,237
0
somewhere else
So Google is in trouble for using loopholes and circumventing security policies.
Fine.
All the while, in the thread about Apple's tax avoidance schemes we're being told that it's perfectly fine, even every company's obligation, to use every available loophole to achieve their goals and maximize their profits.
That's right.

If you buy a house, are you going to claim the mortgage interest as a deduction on your income taxes? Of course you are. Did you donate to charity? Get married? Have a baby? Pay DMV registration fees? Go to school?

You are using the provisions in the tax code to your advantage. Those provisions were deliberately created by lawmakers to compensate the tax filers for certain behavior.

Have you ever purchased something from an online retailer knowing that you're not going to be assessed a sales tax like you would if you went down the street to the store on the corner?

Yeah, I thought so.

:rolleyes:
 
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Giuly

macrumors 68040
Tens of Millions of Dollars?
pennies6.jpg
images

:rolleyes:
 

skaimauve

macrumors newbie
Feb 4, 2004
9
0
It's apples fault that they left this exploit open???

I've read a lot of quite criticizing Apple. But Google die NOT exploit a security flaw in Safari. The same exploit works in all browsers.

However, it is only required on Safari because most browsers are set to accept all cookies anyways. Safari is unique in that it allows you to set it to only accept cookies from site you are visiting.

Apple can not patch this "flaw": this is how the web works. A page can have iframes and iframes can link to a third-party server. All Apple can do on this issue is to remove this feature and explain that it doesn't work as intended, because the web has evolved and everybody circumvents it. To test it, clear your cookies, set Safari to reject third-party cookies, visit a few sites and open your cookie jar.

No technology can prevent tracking. Cookies are used because they are probably the simplest way to do it. But other techniques could be used. Google can implement it via Analytics. Facebook can do it with the "like" widget everybody is adding to their site.

Only laws and fines can prevent tracking. This is why Google should pay the US government if it breaks the US laws, and EU if it breaks the EU laws, and so on. They should not pay Apple. The charge should be a deterrent and a way to finance the enforcement of the laws.

Grow-up: you are being tracked. So if you don't want it, petition your own government.

Posting "Apple is flawed" and "Google is Evil" only takes you away from the actual solution. Apple follows the Internet Standards, and Google is doing what everybody is doing. If Google broke the law, then they and all of the others who broke the law have to pay.
 

hstewart

macrumors regular
Jun 1, 2011
128
1
This could get really interesting, they are finding that Google did something to Internet Explorer.

My only concern is how much the government is taken in on this mess - if they do then that is evil. Government should stay out of business.
 

AriX

macrumors 6502
Jan 8, 2007
349
0
WHAT? This is insane. I don't think Google is perfect, or that they should not be closely scrutinized, but this is just a little workaround they used. Did they break any laws? Obeying a browser's intended security features is not a law.
 

reedmartin

macrumors regular
Apr 24, 2012
243
0
WHAT? This is insane. I don't think Google is perfect, or that they should not be closely scrutinized, but this is just a little workaround they used. Did they break any laws? Obeying a browser's intended security features is not a law.

It's all about ethics. Ethics is a huge deal in the business world.

/s
 

Thunderbird

macrumors 6502a
Dec 25, 2005
952
789
Google's position is that their policy is to do no evil; therefore, anything they do isn't evil, by definition. I believe the Nazis had a similar logic.

...Godwin's Law.


Regarding the tax avoidance issue-- EVERY U.S. company that does substantial business overseas does this. It's not just legal, it is standard business practice. The corporation is legally obligated to be working on behalf of its stockholders, and most companies do that by LEGALLY trying to minimize taxes. The right fix is to change the law, not go after companies that behave LEGALLY within the current law. Now, it should be understood that the U.S. also has one of the highest Corporate tax rates in the world, which is a further inducement to trying to minimize taxes.

Whether Apple is the only business to do this or not is irrelevant to whether it is a problem. Your emphasis on the word LEGAL is obviously an attempt to whitewash or obfuscate the unfairness of the practice. I agree that the right thing to do is to change the law. Corporate tax rates, as has been pointed out elsewhere, have previously been a lot higher, without many of the loopholes available today.

Lol ethical. Yes, all companies should pay extra taxes because it's just right! Maybe afterward, the ceos of these companies can hold hands and skip though a meadow?

Nice strawman. Nobody is asking anyone to pay extra taxes, just the amount they would normally be required to pay, without the loopholes.

There's no comparison between the illegal unethical thing that Google did, and the legal thing that Apple did.

Google did something both illegal and unethical. Apple (and many other companies) did /are doing something unethical. Both situations involve circumventing obligations. In Google's case there exists explicit rules against this. In Apple's case, no such rules exist due to loopholes in the tax code which effectively allow for a double standard.

The two situations are for the most part different, but there is a similar thread or element of avoidance. Thus, it is not true that 'no' comparison can be made.



That's right.

If you buy a house, are you going to claim the mortgage interest as a deduction on your income taxes? Of course you are. Did you donate to charity? Get married? Have a baby? Pay DMV registration fees? Go to school?

You are using the provisions in the tax code to your advantage. Those provisions were deliberately created by lawmakers to compensate the tax filers for certain behavior.

Have you ever purchased something from an online retailer knowing that you're not going to be assessed a sales tax like you would if you went down the street to the store on the corner?

Yeah, I thought so.

:rolleyes:

Yet another person who doesn't understand the difference between a line item deduction and a loophole, nor the implications of this difference for government revenue in terms of scale. :rolleyes:

It's all about ethics. Ethics is a huge deal in the business world.

/s

Not sure if you are being serious here or not. But something you said comes to mind:

Please spare us the holier than thou spiel.
 

reedmartin

macrumors regular
Apr 24, 2012
243
0
.
Nice strawman. Nobody is asking anyone to pay extra taxes, just the amount they would normally be required to pay, without the loopholes.

Answer these two simple question: why would they do this?

And second, you've never claimed some sort of deduction to lower your taxes? If your accountant said "hey i can probably save you a few dollars if i do x" you'll say "nah man I'm good, i wanna pay more"? Honest question.


Google did something both illegal and unethical. Apple (and many other companies) did /are doing something unethical. Both situations involve circumventing obligations. In Google's case there exists explicit rules against this. In Apple's case, no such rules exist due to loopholes in the tax code which effectively allow for a double standard.

The two situations are for the most part different, but there is a similar thread or element of avoidance. Thus, it is not true that 'no' comparison can be made.

See above. By the stringent requirements that the "ethical" crowd puts forth, anything done by anyone to lower their tax burden is unethical, rather then what it really is: common sense.



Yet another person who doesn't understand the difference between a line item deduction and a loophole, nor the implications of this difference for government revenue in terms of scale. :rolleyes:

Who cares about scale. The tax burden is a relative scale not an absolute one. And a line item deduction IS a loophole. Not sure why you think they are not.



Not sure if you are being serious here or not. But something you said comes to mind:

It was sarcasm. The same people here whining about ethics are the same ones who would do whatever it takes to lower their own burden. Yet they want to be the first to throw a stone. Hypocrisy complete and true!
 

Lennholm

macrumors 65816
Sep 4, 2010
1,003
210
Answer these two simple question: why would they do this?

And second, you've never claimed some sort of deduction to lower your taxes? If your accountant said "hey i can probably save you a few dollars if i do x" you'll say "nah man I'm good, i wanna pay more"? Honest question.




See above. By the stringent requirements that the "ethical" crowd puts forth, anything done by anyone to lower their tax burden is unethical, rather then what it really is: common sense.





Who cares about scale. The tax burden is a relative scale not an absolute one. And a line item deduction IS a loophole. Not sure why you think they are not.





It was sarcasm. The same people here whining about ethics are the same ones who would do whatever it takes to lower their own burden. Yet they want to be the first to throw a stone. Hypocrisy complete and true!

A deduction IS NOT a loophole, deductability was purposely put there to compensate the tax payer for something they did that was beneficial for the government, an incitement to do it again since it was beneficial to the government and in extension the entire society.
The loopholes Apple and other international companies are using are loopholes because they're undesired and exist because the government has no control over it unless they want to exert the kind of control that would also adversely affect legitimate, ethical international trade. It's basically "above domestic law", and exploiting it is what makes it unethical.

Please don't make assumptions about me, you have no idea what kind of deductions I make, if any, and for what reasons. Your unfounded claim that I and people who share my opinion are hypocrites who "would do whatever it takes to lower [our] own burden" is nothing but a pure insult.

----------------------------


That's right.

If you buy a house, are you going to claim the mortgage interest as a deduction on your income taxes? Of course you are. Did you donate to charity? Get married? Have a baby? Pay DMV registration fees? Go to school?

You are using the provisions in the tax code to your advantage. Those provisions were deliberately created by lawmakers to compensate the tax filers for certain behavior.

Have you ever purchased something from an online retailer knowing that you're not going to be assessed a sales tax like you would if you went down the street to the store on the corner?

Yeah, I thought so.

:rolleyes:

Exactly, they were deliberately created because society as a whole benefits from it, but the tax avoidance tactics used by Apple and other companies are something completely different. Your point about online retailers are unfamiliar to me. Where I live, sales tax is charged for purchases made at online retailers as well, why shouldn't it be?
 
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reedmartin

macrumors regular
Apr 24, 2012
243
0
A deduction IS NOT a loophole, deductability was purposely put there to compensate the tax payer for something they did that was beneficial for the government, an incitement to do it again since it was beneficial to the government and in extension the entire society.
The loopholes Apple and other international companies are using are loopholes because they're undesired and exist because the government has no control over it unless they want to exert the kind of control that would also adversely affect legitimate, ethical international trade. It's basically "above domestic law", and exploiting it is what makes it unethical.

Please don't make assumptions about me, you have no idea what kind of deductions I make, if any, and for what reasons. Your unfounded claim that I and people who share my opinion are hypocrites who "would do whatever it takes to lower [our] own burden" is nothing but a pure insult.

I made zero assumptions about you. In fact, i asked you to explain yourself (you know the two questions that i asked that you ignored?) so as not to make assumptions about you

But now, it sounds more like a guilty conscience speaking. Again, why would Apple not take advantage of these loopholes, which are legal. And second, have you ever claimed any deductions or done anything ever to lower your burden?

Please don't come back saying i insulted you without answering the questions I've asked. I'll help you out, if you're as ethical as you claim, the answer to the second question would be a simple "no".

It's always a loophole until it's your loophole. Then it becomes a deduction. Gimme a break...people have been taking advantage of the tax code for years. Why people here are getting so riled up about ethics is beyond me and frankly laughable.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
The more reedmartin posts the more I'm convinced he's voonyx. He even uses the same arguing tactics and language. Funny huh?
 

reedmartin

macrumors regular
Apr 24, 2012
243
0
The more reedmartin posts the more I'm convinced he's voonyx. He even uses the same arguing tactics and language. Funny huh?

The more i read your stuff, the more I'm convinced you're knightwrx. You both seem to get upset easily and come to each others defense. Funny, huh?

As for "voonyx", sounds like someone else who made you mad that you're still fuming over. guess that's just your mo, knight?
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
The more i read your stuff, the more I'm convinced you're knightwrx. You both seem to get upset easily and come to each others defense. Funny, huh?

As for "voonyx", sounds like someone else who made you mad that you're still fuming over. guess that's just your mo, knight?

Classic Voonyx logic and argument style. No matter if you are or aren't. If you are - no doubt you'll also have a meltdown and get banned. You keep acting like I'm mad instead of simply making an observation though. I think you might be projecting again...
 

reedmartin

macrumors regular
Apr 24, 2012
243
0
Classic Voonyx logic and argument style. No matter if you are or aren't. If you are - no doubt you'll also have a meltdown and get banned. You keep acting like I'm mad instead of simply making an observation though. I think you might be projecting again...

I'm doing the same thing you're doing. You're telling me I'm someone else, I'm telling you you're someone else. What's the issue here? It says a lot about you, that if more then one person disagrees with you, you assume they're the same person! Goodness...
 

Thunderbird

macrumors 6502a
Dec 25, 2005
952
789
Answer these two simple question: why would they do this?

And second, you've never claimed some sort of deduction to lower your taxes? If your accountant said "hey i can probably save you a few dollars if i do x" you'll say "nah man I'm good, i wanna pay more"? Honest question.

You just don't get it do you. A deduction isn't a loophole. And the kinds of loopholes used by Apple and widely available to many other corporations are not available to most individuals. Thus your analogy is false, as is your strawman about paying 'extra' taxes.


See above. By the stringent requirements that the "ethical" crowd puts forth, anything done by anyone to lower their tax burden is unethical, rather then what it really is: common sense.

No. Tactics done by corporations to circumvent tax rules and rates merely by virtue of their being wealthy enough to do so, and consequently often end up paying a lesser rate than individuals who can't or are not allowed to take advantage of those loopholes is what's at issue. That's what is considered unfair policy, and thus unethical.


Who cares about scale. The tax burden is a relative scale not an absolute one. And a line item deduction IS a loophole. Not sure why you think they are not.

Scale matters. When several large corporations in a county or district use loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of taxes, the difference created by these loopholes can be the difference between whether that county, district or state can afford expected levels of service or even balances its budget. Often the amount of lost revenue is on the order of billions. Several individuals, by contrast, do not affect state revenue on the same scale.

You still don't get it. A loophole is something unforeseen or unaccounted for by the tax code. And because it was not foreseen or not covered (or perhaps ignored) by the tax code, it isn't technically illegal. A line item deduction on the other hand is something listed, known, and granted by the tax code. It's explicitly made available to whomever qualifies for it. It isn't a trick or end-around the rules.

Is this really so confusing for you?


It was sarcasm. The same people here whining about ethics are the same ones who would do whatever it takes to lower their own burden. Yet they want to be the first to throw a stone. Hypocrisy complete and true!

Again, what corporations can do about their tax burden is different from what individuals can do. A person whose primary residence and who derives their income primarily in California, for example, has to pay the California state tax rate. Unlike Apple, (and other companies) whose primary residence is California, but who funnel money through Nevada, Ireland and the Netherlands, using mailboxes, subsidiary offices and tax havens. The result is often a much lower tax rate than individuals could gain through simple line item deuctions.

That's what upsets many people, along with your smug, "Good for Apple, screw you" attitude.

Ironically, what states fail to collect in revenues from corporations, you and I have to make up for in the long run through cut backs in services, higher taxes on individuals or property, higher sales taxes, or paying higher interest rates on state borrowing. Eventually of course a county or state could go bankrupt. Many are already in severe deficits or debt. Leaving aside the ethics problem, it's just common sense to have corporations paying their fair share, so individuals like you and I don't end up paying more.

Now if by chance your cheerleading for corporate tax avoidance is based on some principle that governments should not collect as much revenue in the first place, or that states shouldn't exist, I'm fine with that. But that's a separate topic, and an unlikely reason why many people get upset over the kind of tax avoidance tactics corporations use. It also has nothing to do with some imagined hypocrisy you accuse people of simply because you don't have an argument, or don't know the difference between a loophole and a deduction.
 

reedmartin

macrumors regular
Apr 24, 2012
243
0
You just don't get it do you. A deduction isn't a loophole. And the kinds of loopholes used by Apple and widely available to many other corporations are not available to most individuals. Thus your analogy is false, as is your strawman about paying 'extra' taxes.

Again, what's a deduction to you is a loophole to others. Problem is since the "deduction" benefits you, it's ok. EIC is the best example. That's a "deduction"...it's also welfare built right into your taxes. Believe me the people who take advantage of eic don't consider it a loophole either. :rolleyes:


Scale matters. When several large corporations in a county or district use loopholes to avoid paying their fair share of taxes, the difference created by these loopholes can be the difference between whether that county, district or state can afford expected levels of service or even balances its budget. Often the amount of lost revenue is on the order of billions. Several individuals, by contrast, do not affect state revenue on the same scale.

You still don't get it. A loophole is something unforeseen or unaccounted for by the tax code. And because it was not foreseen or not covered (or perhaps ignored) by the tax code, it isn't technically illegal. A line item deduction on the other hand is something listed, known, and granted by the tax code. It's explicitly made available to whomever qualifies for it. It isn't a trick or end-around the rules.

So what's the answer to the question "why wouldn't corporations take advantage of this?" All you "ethical" people can't seem to answer that. Why?? Like i said before, if you can agree that every corporation that exists is unethical (because every corporation does this) then that's fine. Don't give me the "b-b-b-but Apple is more unethicaler!" spiel. Why isn't your anger directed to every corporation? Or is it?

Is this really so confusing for you?

No.


Again, what corporations can do about their tax burden is different from what individuals can do. A person whose primary residence and who derives their income primarily in California, for example, has to pay the California state tax rate. Unlike Apple, (and other companies) whose primary residence is California, but who funnel money through Nevada, Ireland and the Netherlands, using mailboxes, subsidiary offices and tax havens. The result is often a much lower tax rate than individuals could gain through simple line item deuctions.

That's what upsets many people, along with your smug, "Good for Apple, screw you" attitude.

Ironically, what states fail to collect in revenues from corporations, you and I have to make up for in the long run through cut backs in services, higher taxes on individuals or property, higher sales taxes, or paying higher interest rates on state borrowing. Eventually of course a county or state could go bankrupt. Many are already in severe deficits or debt. Leaving aside the ethics problem, it's just common sense to have corporations paying their fair share, so individuals like you and I don't end up paying more.

Now if by chance your cheerleading for corporate tax avoidance is based on some principle that governments should not collect as much revenue in the first place, or that states shouldn't exist, I'm fine with that. But that's a separate topic, and an unlikely reason why many people get upset over the kind of tax avoidance tactics corporations use. It also has nothing to do with some imagined hypocrisy you accuse people of simply because you don't have an argument, or don't know the difference between a loophole and a deduction.

Everyone suddenly works for h&r block! I've said it already, it's quite evident who owns a business (or would be able to run a business). Anyone who voluntarily would not take advantage of legal methods to lower their company tax burden because of how "unethical" it is would be a laughingstock.

If apple is unethical so is (list every major corp here). Do you agree?
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
Ironically, what states fail to collect in revenues from corporations, you and I have to make up for in the long run through cut backs in services, higher taxes on individuals or property, higher sales taxes, or paying higher interest rates on state borrowing. Eventually of course a county or state could go bankrupt. Many are already in severe deficits or debt. Leaving aside the ethics problem, it's just common sense to have corporations paying their fair share, so individuals like you and I don't end up paying more.

Indeed, the original NYT article commented on how the tech schools in Apple's Cupertino backyard were suffering from lack of tax support. Even the school Woz went to might have to close.

In the meantime, Apple got out of paying millions in California taxes even while being based there, by shunting all their income through their pseudo-office in Nevada, which has no income tax.

It just shows how badly the laws need changing.
 
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