Based on all the evidence coming out of this trial that seems to hurt samsung every time, id like to make a conjecture: Samsung is officially screwed. anyone know what the worst possible punishment samsung can receive at this trial might be? I'm not a lawyer.
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Samsung's Massive Document Outlining How to Improve Galaxy S by Adopting iPhone Solutions Surfaces
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KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
The problem is Samsung is facing a media machine like no other. Apple has biased media that backs it up, will spin anything in a pro-Apple fashion (Gruber, WSJ, AllThingsD, TheVerge and all the Apple sites like AI, CoM, etc..). The truth of what is actually going in the courtroom is quite distorted and often people that try to correct it with actual court documents or unbiased news sources get drowned out by cries of "Samsung shill!" and "Android fanboy!".
Don't make any conjecture on this case until its done. It's really hard to know what is really happening, what is really "smoking guns" and what isn't because of all the sensationalistic reporting going on.
Oletros
macrumors 603
juliusaugustus
macrumors regular
Samsung
Samsung 2-3 year success in the mobile market parallels the success of GM in the locomotive and Diesel Coach/Truck market
Samsung has two factors that Samsung had that GM also had in the Diesel vehicle market
economies of scope: Samsung is a largely diversified company with much expertise in many areas much like GM it could develop a lot of it's own technologies and manufacture them in house. Having a lot of skills means they can easily adapt to the changing market.
Economies of scale: Being as Samsung makes a lot of their own components in large numbers such as displays and memory it can have them in very large numbers at low prices. Similar to had GM standardized much of it's components used in diesel locomotive and made them in large numbers.
Capital investment: Samsung has much more access to capital than other companies due to its presence in other industries so it can spend more money on things like R&D and Marketing. GM also has access to capital to invest in Diesel BUS/Truck and Diesel Locomotive that other companies didn't have access to because of similar factors.
Lawsuits: Samsung was accused of copying Apple and stealing IP even though clearly they have made products similar to what they have for years and truthfully Apple is just mad that Samsung is so successful and that they have managed to gain so much success in only 2-3 years. GM was accused of monopolizing the locomotive and they were accused of destroying street car systems replacing trolleys with Buses and in both cases were wrong and charges were either dropped or very insignificant. Samsung like GM offers what is considered a better product and that is all they ever did. The patent claims are on things that are already commonplace before Apple ever made any products in this market. I honestly at this point don't see Apple winning this case or at the most Samsung gets a slap on wrist. Really Apple is just trying to use the legal system to get rid of a bigger and better competitor, just like GM's competitor's tried to do.
Regardless Samsung's omnipotent Wave will be felt across the Galaxy in one way or another
Samsung 2-3 year success in the mobile market parallels the success of GM in the locomotive and Diesel Coach/Truck market
Samsung has two factors that Samsung had that GM also had in the Diesel vehicle market
economies of scope: Samsung is a largely diversified company with much expertise in many areas much like GM it could develop a lot of it's own technologies and manufacture them in house. Having a lot of skills means they can easily adapt to the changing market.
Economies of scale: Being as Samsung makes a lot of their own components in large numbers such as displays and memory it can have them in very large numbers at low prices. Similar to had GM standardized much of it's components used in diesel locomotive and made them in large numbers.
Capital investment: Samsung has much more access to capital than other companies due to its presence in other industries so it can spend more money on things like R&D and Marketing. GM also has access to capital to invest in Diesel BUS/Truck and Diesel Locomotive that other companies didn't have access to because of similar factors.
Lawsuits: Samsung was accused of copying Apple and stealing IP even though clearly they have made products similar to what they have for years and truthfully Apple is just mad that Samsung is so successful and that they have managed to gain so much success in only 2-3 years. GM was accused of monopolizing the locomotive and they were accused of destroying street car systems replacing trolleys with Buses and in both cases were wrong and charges were either dropped or very insignificant. Samsung like GM offers what is considered a better product and that is all they ever did. The patent claims are on things that are already commonplace before Apple ever made any products in this market. I honestly at this point don't see Apple winning this case or at the most Samsung gets a slap on wrist. Really Apple is just trying to use the legal system to get rid of a bigger and better competitor, just like GM's competitor's tried to do.
Regardless Samsung's omnipotent Wave will be felt across the Galaxy in one way or another
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I think this is interesting..
http://allthingsd.com/20120810/brea...-samsung-for-30-per-smartphone-40-per-tablet/
Yes. Apple apparently tried to license its patents. However - look at the terms they wanted. AND they wanted it to be a cross-license deal.
Got to hand it to Apple - it was a noble effort. For one - it sets precedent that they 'tried"
Second - if accepted, they would be getting components from Samsung at a GREATLY reduced price essentially = even bigger profits
Third - if Samsung went for the deal - they would have had to sign an agreement which would have killed Samsung in court had they remotely violated any part of the agreement (what was permissible based on the cross license agreement.)
Samsung made the right move in my opinion.
http://allthingsd.com/20120810/brea...-samsung-for-30-per-smartphone-40-per-tablet/
Yes. Apple apparently tried to license its patents. However - look at the terms they wanted. AND they wanted it to be a cross-license deal.
Got to hand it to Apple - it was a noble effort. For one - it sets precedent that they 'tried"
Second - if accepted, they would be getting components from Samsung at a GREATLY reduced price essentially = even bigger profits
Third - if Samsung went for the deal - they would have had to sign an agreement which would have killed Samsung in court had they remotely violated any part of the agreement (what was permissible based on the cross license agreement.)
Samsung made the right move in my opinion.
Speaking of Samsung "adopting" Apple's work, I present you the development environment for Samsung's smart TVs.
Mind you that you're looking at Windows software, not something that runs on OSX. Here's the xcode screenshot from Wiki for comparison.
Of course, I'm sure someone will tell me that all Integrated Development Environments look similar and...there's nothing wrong with copying a few icon styles here and there or copying the widget box, etc, etc.
Seriously though, why the heck would anyone want to copy xcode that closely? Sometimes it's just hard to understand Samsung's motivation other than the possibility that they were going straight after xcode developers. 😕
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Edit: since some do not believe this is coming from Samsung, let me provide additional information from my other post:
Here's a screenshot straight off Samsung's own development documentation available for public.
Here's a tutorial article off a Korean magazine on programming Samsung SmartTV.
Also a quick Google search shows that a developer made a similar remark back in 2011(correction, 2012) regarding Samsung's SDK resembling xcode.
Mind you that you're looking at Windows software, not something that runs on OSX. Here's the xcode screenshot from Wiki for comparison.
Of course, I'm sure someone will tell me that all Integrated Development Environments look similar and...there's nothing wrong with copying a few icon styles here and there or copying the widget box, etc, etc.
Seriously though, why the heck would anyone want to copy xcode that closely? Sometimes it's just hard to understand Samsung's motivation other than the possibility that they were going straight after xcode developers. 😕
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Edit: since some do not believe this is coming from Samsung, let me provide additional information from my other post:
Here's a screenshot straight off Samsung's own development documentation available for public.
Here's a tutorial article off a Korean magazine on programming Samsung SmartTV.
Also a quick Google search shows that a developer made a similar remark back in 2011(correction, 2012) regarding Samsung's SDK resembling xcode.
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AidenShaw
macrumors P6
It also looks like Visual Studio or Eclipse or some other IDEs.
Considering the timelines, it's probably more likely that we can show that Xcode copied Microsoft - why does Xcode look so much like Visual Studio?
KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
Aren't they all a copy of Delphi anyhow ?
Just the type of answers I predicted in my post. 😉 Of course mostIDEs point look similar whether you look at some decade old Borland tool or the current Visual Studio. However with this Samsung tool, it's just an odd job of copying Apple. I'm sure you're already familiar with Visual Studio, but let's take a look at it just for comparison's sake.
Notice the icons, the properties box, etc, etc. It conforms the standard Windows style very closely. Look at Delphi's IDE. All standard issue Windows stuff (man I loved Delphi and Borland Pascal back in the days...)
Then you look at xcode.
Look at the OSX standard gradation of the boxes. Look at the toolbar icon arrangements. Look at the widget box on the bottom right. Clearly, this is an OSX IDE made to fit the style of Apple's OSX UI elements. Similar to Visual Studio in the overall arrangement but clearly different in styling. I think we can agree on that.
Now we move onto Samsung's tool, again this is a Windows program.
Sure the window arrangements are pretty standard across most IDEs, but look at the gradation syling, the icons, the toolbar, the box with controls on the right bottom, etc. Whoever made this thing, deliberately put a ton of effort to make it look like xcode. Heck, look at the Windows buttons on the top right corner, they look completely out of place in the software.
I mean, this is very clearly a Windows IDE trying to mimic xcode in look&feel and it's such an obvious copy job by Samsung. Yet you two are trying to side skirt the issue and try to use the "all IDEs look the same" card. Are you sure you aren't as biased as the most extreme Apple fans, just at the opposite end of the spectrum?
kdarling
Contributor
Handheld and phone IDEs predate XCode by years.
IDEs all look similar because they have much the same requirements, and developers use them in much the same ways.
That's why screenshots almost always show a file system pane, a code pane, a widget pane, a properties pane, and a preview pane... along with many other views that developers can set up to suit their needs, along with run and debugger buttons that look the same on every IDE (to make it easier on the developer).
The developer can arrange the panes any way they want.
Absolutely but that's not what I'm talking about. I've mentioned in my first posting and the second posting just above yours: Samsung went the whole nine yards to skin their Windows app to make it look like xcode.
I don't understand why none of you would even acknowledge the amazing amount of work Samsung put in to make this look like xcode, an OSX app. Are you really not seeing it or am I making a ridiculously wild accusation? 😕
Renzatic
Suspended
Ridiculously wild accusation. Yeah, it does look nearly identical to XCode, but...so?
Do you think Samsung is so dead set on copying Apple in everything they do that they even had to make an IDE that looks identical just for the hell of it?
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so..combined with the legal evidence shown so far, it does show that Samsung really does have an unexplainable, almost weird obsession with Apple and in this case copied Apple's product even when there was no particularly good reason to do it. Which runs contrary to what many have claimed here so far in this thread.
The funny thing is, I actually cannot think of a good single reason as to why Samsung would do this. The only thing I can think of is that they might wanted to make it easier for existing xcode developers. Then again, Samsung did rip off iTunes pretty closely with their earlier KIES software but at least iTunes was and still is a really big influence with the consumers so it makes more sense to copy it.
AidenShaw
macrumors P6
This sums it up - you're too obsessed with Samsung to see the obvious.
And the obvious is that IDEs look the same because they're dealing with the same issues to solve the same problems.
Renzatic
Suspended
Not that I care much, but...
...you do have to admit that the thick trim bar and button layout is just about dead on OSX. The rest of the UI is understandable for the reasons you stated, but that top bit isn't at all what you normally see in a Windows environment.
I wonder what program it is.
i think you're right in that perspective but lets be honest, there aren't memos in this court case about how the iPhone should start copying samsung phones. its simple things like that when I'm referring to when i say samsung is condemned
Renzatic
Suspended
It's the word "copying" that's the big issue here. Did Samsung copy Apple, or did they use Apple ideas as a basis to improve their own design? If it's the latter, then hell, even Apple does that. Just look at the Sony document. Sony was a company that greatly inspired Apple over the years, and we see some of the ideas first made popular there in Macs and iDevices now.
Or what about the new notification center in iOS5? The one that's suspiciously similar to the pull down menu in Android (but is always glossed over or excused whenever it's brought up in one of these copy debates). Did Apple copy Google there? Or did Apple use the basis of Google's idea, and implement their own take on it instead?
It's the simple fact that companies do this to each other ALL THE DAMN TIME. And it's the one fact most of you here seem to miss, or conveniently ignore so you can trot out the same everyone copied Apple argument time and time again.
Or what about the new notification center in iOS5? The one that's suspiciously similar to the pull down menu in Android (but is always glossed over or excused whenever it's brought up in one of these copy debates). Did Apple copy Google there? Or did Apple use the basis of Google's idea, and implement their own take on it instead?
It's the simple fact that companies do this to each other ALL THE DAMN TIME. And it's the one fact most of you here seem to miss, or conveniently ignore so you can trot out the same everyone copied Apple argument time and time again.
kdarling
Contributor
Wait a minute. Where did this supposed SDK image come from, anyway? Is it some old internal Samsung thing (since it's in Korean)?
I just realized that I have the Samsung TV SDK installed on this laptop, because two years ago I bought a Samsung DVD player and intended to write some personal apps for it.
A few minutes ago I snapped this screenshot of what the official downloadable TV SDK looked like (the Samsung IDE version; not the Eclipse version):
Compare that to the Wikipedia XCode image that was posted. Not even close in the decorative border area or menu layout:
It's all silly anyway. Nobody looks at gradiated areas and says "OMG, it reminds me of XXX, I must use it!" 🙂
A lot of us have had so many IDEs they tend to blur together. CodeWarrior, VisualC++, Visual Studio, XCode, Dexterra, BREW, Sony-Ericsson Phone SDK, JavaME SDK, Java WirelessToolKit, Blackberry JDE, WebOS, Eclipse - many versions - and those are just a few that come to mind that I've used. They're all more alike the ways that really matter (the panes), than different in the ways that don't (decorations).
I just realized that I have the Samsung TV SDK installed on this laptop, because two years ago I bought a Samsung DVD player and intended to write some personal apps for it.
A few minutes ago I snapped this screenshot of what the official downloadable TV SDK looked like (the Samsung IDE version; not the Eclipse version):
Compare that to the Wikipedia XCode image that was posted. Not even close in the decorative border area or menu layout:
It's all silly anyway. Nobody looks at gradiated areas and says "OMG, it reminds me of XXX, I must use it!" 🙂
A lot of us have had so many IDEs they tend to blur together. CodeWarrior, VisualC++, Visual Studio, XCode, Dexterra, BREW, Sony-Ericsson Phone SDK, JavaME SDK, Java WirelessToolKit, Blackberry JDE, WebOS, Eclipse - many versions - and those are just a few that come to mind that I've used. They're all more alike the ways that really matter (the panes), than different in the ways that don't (decorations).
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Internal??
Here's a screenshot straight off Samsung's own development documentation available for public.
Here's a tutorial article off a Korean magazine on programming Samsung SmartTV.
That's an excellent point. Why did Samsung even put all that effort in it to make it look like xcode then?
Please do show me a single Windows IDE that copied decorations of xcode like Samsung did then. Who else did?
I find it really perplexing (and in an odd way highly entertaining) that none of you can simply admit it that Samsung did really rip off an Apple product's look and feel in this case and just squirming around the issue. It's especially puzzling given that many of you preach that Apple fans should be more "objective" 😉
Actually if you look at Visual Studio and Delphi, you'll see Samsung did copy off the widget list as well. Yes Samsung did a lot of work there to basically create an OSX style IDE in Windows.
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KnightWRX
macrumors Pentium
Maybe you should invest your time in a hobby. A big tool bar is your only indication of "copying" here.
And again, how do you explain kdarling having a completely different installed on his computer ?
Frankly, it's just that we don't care about stuff like this. This isn't even at issue in this court case. This is just "muddying the waters" and useless flamewar inducement. Can we stick to the case material and what is actually at issue for Apple ?
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Come on Knight. we're all wasting (or enjoying) our time together here arguing over these things, not to mention as a parent trying to put my baby into sleep, there isn't much else I can do than spending time online. 😀
I know you know better than that. As knowledgeable tech person (and a fellow Canuck) you know much better than I do; Samsung didn't just make a "big tool bar". They deliberately put some serious effort to skin their IDE to make it look like xcode, an OSX IDE. That doesn't just happen by accident or just because it's an IDE. Please feel free to show me other Windows IDEs that resemble xcode as much then.
Perhaps different version? I have shown that the screenshots are widely available from different sources all showing the same skin.
Also a quick Google search shows that a developer made a similar remark back in 2011 regarding Samsung's SDK resembling xcode:
I think that if you dig deep enough into any big companies background/history that you will find lots of things that resemble another companies work. Maybe we just don't have to look that far in the case of Samsung. I don't have enough knowledge in any of these areas to know if it's infringing even though they obviously took some inspiration from Apple. What I do know is that I wouldn't want the courts to try to role back all of Samsung's own innovation ( that's a pretty popular word around here ) or cripple other manufacturers progress if Samsung is indeed found guilty of what they are accused. I like Apple but their high prices and locked down system are a lil to much for me.
The answers you and I'd expect.
- Looks nothing like Xcode.
- Looks more like some other IDE.
- Xcode was itself based on some other IDE.
- Some IDE came before Xcode.
All these guys won't ever say it looks like Xcode. The view placement on the top right corner, the center screen for interface builder, the bottom right corner for viewing and selecting UI items, etc.
It's hard to get the message across some of the people on this board. They make comparisons to Visual Studio when they don't appear similar at all, but cannot see the obvious design elements picked up from Xcode.
I don't even argue anymore. Just let it be. Pretend you're blind and mute.
I third this lol. It's not even like anyone is saying they're carbon copies but to deny what's right there in your face truly is perplexing behavior.
Samsung was very clearly and very obviously inspired by Xcode.
Renzatic
Suspended
Thing is, why would Samsung spend time and money cloning XCode when they've got a ton of other IDEs that look about the same, perform about the same, and work just as well if not better?