Tablets Why the Surface is a terrible tablet right now and forever.

Liquorpuki said:

Personally I think the software on iOS is lacking. Large selection, yeah, but most of it is not good at all because of budget pricing and app store commoditization. Most of it is disposable $1-5 junk that I'd see in a cardboard sleeve in the bargain bin at Fry's if this was the early 2000's.
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The iOS app selection is lacking compared to what? The Google Play store? Quantity has nothing to do with it. Both app stores have way more apps than a person could sample in a lifetime. It's all about the quality of apps, and iOS has the best apps. I went from an iPhone, to an Android phone, and was disappointed to find that a lot of the best apps werent on Android, some of them were...

Swordigo, Chinatown Wars, Pocket Planes, Street Fighter Volt, Fairway Solitaire, Beat Hazard Ultra, Infinity Blade II, Bike Baron, Gesundheit, Monkey Island 1-3, Groove Coaster, Starfront Collision, Aralon, Rage HD, Matching with Friends, The World Ends With You, Scribblenauts, Avengers Initiative, Back to the Future, Battle Academy, Zuma's Revenge, Touchgrind, MVC3, New Puzzle Bobble, SF vs Tekken, Ultimate MC3, Rayman Jungle Run, Wild Blood, Walking Dead, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy Chaos Rings, Bastion, Skate It, Chrono Trigger, NFS Shift 2, Iron Man 2, Prince of Persia, Tom Clancys Hawk, Mirrors Edge, Hero of Sparta, Phoenix Wright, Limbo, Rock Band, Tiny Wings, Zombie Gunship, Eternal Legacy, Ticket To Ride, Sid Miers Pirates, Sid Miers Civilization, Punch Quest

Also, for musicians, Android doesn't have an app that is comparable to Garage Band, and is missing a lot of staple music production apps like FL Studio, Animoog, Filtratron, DJay, Figure, Nano Studio, iKaossilator, DM1, Multitrack DAW, ReBirth, Ampkit, Tab Toolkit, and Amplitube. I also haven't found a video editing program that's as easy to use and has as many features as iMovie. I was also surprised to find that android doesn't have any apps that allow you to plug in your guitar, and use any kind of amp modeling, or recording.

Also, a lot of android apps are ports of iOS apps, and therefore have more issues. And often times an android version of a game isn't released for weeks or months after the iOS version.

I had a lot of issues with my android set, and the 4G service it was on, so i went back to iOS, and honestly, I can't think of any must have Android apps that weren't available for iOS. Can you?

cnev3 said:

The iOS app selection is lacking compared to what? The Google Play store? Quantity has nothing to do with it. Both app stores have way more apps than a person could sample in a lifetime. It's all about the quality of apps, and iOS has the best apps. I went from an iPhone, to an Android phone, and was disappointed to find that a lot of the best apps werent on Android, some of them were...

Swordigo, Chinatown Wars, Pocket Planes, Street Fighter Volt, Fairway Solitaire, Beat Hazard Ultra, Infinity Blade II, Bike Baron, Gesundheit, Monkey Island 1-3, Groove Coaster, Starfront Collision, Aralon, Rage HD, Matching with Friends, The World Ends With You, Scribblenauts, Avengers Initiative, Back to the Future, Battle Academy, Zuma's Revenge, Touchgrind, MVC3, New Puzzle Bobble, SF vs Tekken, Ultimate MC3, Rayman Jungle Run, Wild Blood, Walking Dead, Final Fantasy Tactics, Final Fantasy Chaos Rings, Bastion, Skate It, Chrono Trigger, NFS Shift 2, Iron Man 2, Prince of Persia, Tom Clancys Hawk, Mirrors Edge, Hero of Sparta, Phoenix Wright, Limbo, Rock Band, Tiny Wings, Zombie Gunship, Eternal Legacy, Ticket To Ride, Sid Miers Pirates, Sid Miers Civilization, Punch Quest

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I'm not comparing iOS vs Android. I'm comparing mobile vs desktop. Mobile is a budget market because every mobile OS has adopted this dumb commoditized app store model where you have tens of thousands of apps competing for your attention on one storefront. So they undercut each other in a race to the bottom and now it's a huge budget market. Quality follows price. The Surface Pro breaks this standard by letting you put desktop quality software on it.

Also, for musicians, Android doesn't have an app that is comparable to Garage Band, and is missing a lot of staple music production apps like FL Studio, Animoog, Filtratron, DJay, Figure, Nano Studio, iKaossilator, DM1, Multitrack DAW, ReBirth, Ampkit, Tab Toolkit, and Amplitube. I also haven't found a video editing program that's as easy to use and has as many features as iMovie. I was also surprised to find that android doesn't have any apps that allow you to plug in your guitar, and use any kind of amp modeling, or recording.

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On a Pro, I'll be able to run Presonus Studio One, which is the $400 DAW in my sig. I probably won't because I'd rather not power 8 MIDI devices off 1 USB port but the point is, I can use a desktop DAW instead of the $10 toy DAW's that populate iOS and Android if I want to. Garage Band, FL Studio, etc are all jokes to me even in desktop form btw. Far as DJay, the industry standard is Serato. You can't run that on an iPad which is why deejays still bring their Macbooks to gigs. You will be able to run it off a Surface Pro though

The 4:3 aspect ratio is just right for a tablet.

Fuchal said:

The Surface Pro is going to kill it in the enterprise. With full Windows 8 / Outlook / legacy app support, docking stations that turn it into a full-fledged desktop, and remote IT administration... IT departments will flock to these when replacing computers in the workplace.

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Yeah, you should start holding your breath now!

I find it unbelievable the degree to which people who ostensibly have no dog in the tablet fight are singing the praises of a device that doesn't exist yet! Those of us reading those posts can be forgiven for suspecting that some of these early posts are simply "pie in the sky" wishful thinking.

I know that there are unmet needs in the Enterprise space, otherwise there wouldn't be people clamoring for a tablet that is the best of both worlds. However, the success of the Surface Pro will be limited to Enterprise, it seems to me. Is there enough unfulfilled demand within Enterprise to not only make it a success both now, and 2-3 years down the line?

That depends on Microsoft and the market.

Irishman said:

Yeah, you should start holding your breath now!

I find it unbelievable the degree to which people who ostensibly have no dog in the tablet fight are singing the praises of a device that doesn't exist yet! Those of us reading those posts can be forgiven for suspecting that some of these early posts are simply "pie in the sky" wishful thinking.

I know that there are unmet needs in the Enterprise space, otherwise there wouldn't be people clamoring for a tablet that is the best of both worlds. However, the success of the Surface Pro will be limited to Enterprise, it seems to me. Is there enough unfulfilled demand within Enterprise to not only make it a success both now, and 2-3 years down the line?

That depends on Microsoft and the market.

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I agree with you, but I'd go one step further. The idea that you can run any program on the (yet to be released) Pro MAY only be true when using the Pro as a laptop, not the tablet it is (or is supposed to be). I could be wrong, but I doubt any enterprise software is or has been designed to be driven by both touch and traditional keyboard. So you'll have a bunch of people (maybe) touting they can run some enterprise program on their great little 11" screen using the add-on keyboard with a usb wired mouse. Wow, that's great and quite the accomplishment. Way to go MS, you've created a...laptop where touch screen means little to nothing at all.

jmgregory1 said:

I agree with you, but I'd go one step further. The idea that you can run any program on the (yet to be released) Pro MAY only be true when using the Pro as a laptop, not the tablet it is (or is supposed to be). I could be wrong, but I doubt any enterprise software is or has been designed to be driven by both touch and traditional keyboard. So you'll have a bunch of people (maybe) touting they can run some enterprise program on their great little 11" screen using the add-on keyboard with a usb wired mouse. Wow, that's great and quite the accomplishment. Way to go MS, you've created a...laptop where touch screen means little to nothing at all.

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You are wrong, you can run ANY desktop program on the touchscreen. Whether you have it in laptop/dock mode, or whether you are on the subway holding it as a tablet.

spinedoc77 said:

You are wrong, you can run ANY desktop program on the touchscreen. Whether you have it in laptop/dock mode, or whether you are on the subway holding it as a tablet.

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Running a program and having a program work for the particular user interface are two different things. Just making your finger become the mouse pointer isn't making things work based upon a completely different user interface.

There is a reason why iOS apps have been designed to be different than their OSX counterparts, because things are different when you're using a tablet as a tablet. If you're using a tablet as a laptop, then sure, it will work just fine using a keyboard and mouse. But that's exactly my point with the Surface. MS wants it both ways and it doesn't work that way. Going forward, sure, you can re-write software to be hardware aware and change user interaction forms depending upon which input method you're using (I should patent this idea). But MS isn't there, just like Apple isn't there (and may never get there).

Just thinking about using the Surface now and every ad I've seen has shown it used in landscape mode. When holding a widescreen tablet, isn't that awkward typing on it, even if it has a split keyboard? And if you use it in portrait mode, you're forcing whatever you're working on to either need to be scrolled sideways to see it or have it scaled in what would seem like a very strange tall and thin format, just to make on-screen typing seem more natural.

If you really start to think about real world usage of the surface, I think you'll agree that MS did not do it's homework. You can disagree as that's your right, but I'm guessing that more people will see it as a product full of compromises and we're likely to see the Surface suffer the same fate as the Zune.

jmgregory1 said:

Running a program and having a program work for the particular user interface are two different things. Just making your finger become the mouse pointer isn't making things work based upon a completely different user interface.

There is a reason why iOS apps have been designed to be different than their OSX counterparts, because things are different when you're using a tablet as a tablet. If you're using a tablet as a laptop, then sure, it will work just fine using a keyboard and mouse. But that's exactly my point with the Surface. MS wants it both ways and it doesn't work that way. Going forward, sure, you can re-write software to be hardware aware and change user interaction forms depending upon which input method you're using (I should patent this idea). But MS isn't there, just like Apple isn't there (and may never get there).

Just thinking about using the Surface now and every ad I've seen has shown it used in landscape mode. When holding a widescreen tablet, isn't that awkward typing on it, even if it has a split keyboard? And if you use it in portrait mode, you're forcing whatever you're working on to either need to be scrolled sideways to see it or have it scaled in what would seem like a very strange tall and thin format, just to make on-screen typing seem more natural.

If you really start to think about real world usage of the surface, I think you'll agree that MS did not do it's homework. You can disagree as that's your right, but I'm guessing that more people will see it as a product full of compromises and we're likely to see the Surface suffer the same fate as the Zune.

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You are talking about a market and demand that has not been created yet. While I disagree and from experience can honestly say that touch controlling windows 8 in desktop programs is pretty good in the programs I've tried, programs like MS office, photoshop, etc., the market is still incredibly young and arguably not even born yet. With support and pushing we can only wait and see what Adobe, Microsoft, etc etc come up with. You can't judge the market today. When the very first iOS device came out you wouldn't have been there even before the hardware was released putting down the touch paradigm due to lack of software.

As for the other stuff, typing in a widescreen tablet is very intuitive because MS included the option for a split screen keyboard. But I agree the 11.6" screens like the one I have are a bit unwieldy, personally I like more of the 10.5" screen like the surface pro as a compromise. There will be different markets for the different form factors, which is awesome, if you want a wider tablet you can get it, if you want one more squared and smaller you can get that too. It's not much different than the ipad at all, arguably the longer height makes stylus text entry much better, that's if you opt for the widescreen.

As for MS and their homework, you are right in many senses. I think to tie together a touch tablet OS and the old desktop OS is obviously MUCH harder than anyone anticipated and certainly MS has not succeeded in doing this YET. Is it too little too soon? Maybe, only time will tell. But if you wanted to run a windows tablet ONLY in metro UI there is nothing stopping you from doing it, you never have to see the desktop if you don't want to. This is a work in progress, as we slowly see the "desktop" slip away and merge with what people expect these days, meaningful touch driven activity with the proper use of desktop type activity where it makes sense.

spinedoc77 said:

You are wrong, you can run ANY desktop program on the touchscreen. Whether you have it in laptop/dock mode, or whether you are on the subway holding it as a tablet.

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I'm pretty sure that won't be true of all that back catalog of Win XP, Vista, and Windows 7 software these guys are touting as being a big draw for this mythical Surface Pro.

Irishman said:

I'm pretty sure that won't be true of all that back catalog of Win XP, Vista, and Windows 7 software these guys are touting as being a big draw for this mythical Surface Pro.

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Why? I can run all of that software just as much as if it was a win8 desktop.

spinedoc77 said:

Why? I can run all of that software just as much as if it was a win8 desktop.

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Why would you be able to?? Who's going to rewrite that older software to be touch-aware?? Has Microsoft commited to? Nope.

Irishman said:

Why would you be able to?? Who's going to rewrite that older software to be touch-aware?? Has Microsoft commited to? Nope.

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Touch aware? It just makes a touch a mouse-click. Easily done. And there's keyboard support.

For the price of the Surface Pro I think I'd prefer hybrid. Asus and Dell have hybrids with docks that give over 15 hours of battery life.

Irishman said:

Why would you be able to?? Who's going to rewrite that older software to be touch-aware?? Has Microsoft commited to? Nope.

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Why? Office 13 has been written with touch in mind, it works incredibly well in that paradigm. Photoshop works incredibly well with a stylus and touch. You sound like someone 5 years ago saying no one would ever write touch based programs for iOS. The market is just being born, in time we will see developers follow along, it's a huge mistake to judge this market today, just as it was for those who judged iOS when it first came out.

Besides its not difficult to use the desktop versions in the least. And I still at least have the choice to run it as a laptop if I wanted to, a very powerful choice.

jsw said:

Touch aware? It just makes a touch a mouse-click. Easily done. And there's keyboard support.

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That's oversimplifying a bit! What's a right-click? What's a hover? What's the difference between a dragging an object and scrolling? What about when touch targets are too small because they were designed for a mouse?

There's a reason Microsoft added touch support to Office. There's a reason they developed Metro.

BaldiMac said:

That's oversimplifying a bit! What's a right-click? What's a hover? What's the difference between a dragging an object and scrolling? What about when touch targets are too small because they were designed for a mouse?

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I manage to Remote Desktop into my office Windows 7 PC from my iPhone without much issue.

I manage to Remote Desktop into my office Windows 7 PC from my Nexus 7 with a BT keyboard with mouse-stick and left and right buttons with no issue at all.

I can zoom in when need be, which isn't often.

I don't think it's oversimplifying at all. I completely grant that the apps I use aren't touch-aware, and in fact, many of them (Lotus Notes, anyone?) suck completely even when used with a keyboard and mouse at the computer. Nevertheless, all can be used, remotely, on the N7 tethered via my JB iPhone while outside wifi range.

I have full confidence in a Microsoft-created tablet with an attachable keyboard being able to do as well as a $199 tablet and a $30 BT keyboard.

jsw said:

I don't think it's oversimplifying at all.

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Than why didn't you answer any of my questions? I'm not saying that old applications are unusable with touch, but the quality of the experience will suffer greatly.

And, of course, bringing up a keyboard and mouse-stick is a different discussion altogether.

BaldiMac said:

Than why didn't you answer any of my questions? I'm not saying that old applications are unusable with touch, but the quality of the experience will suffer greatly.

And, of course, bringing up a keyboard and mouse-stick is a different discussion altogether.

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Yes, I did answer your questions, because a keyboard and mouse are viable options. Likewise, on my iPhone using iTeleport, I can simulate right clicks and so on, so, while it's not easy, even on that small screen, I can use Remote Desktop, so there's no way those apps will be unusable on the Surface.

BaldiMac said:

Than why didn't you answer any of my questions? I'm not saying that old applications are unusable with touch, but the quality of the experience will suffer greatly.

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From experience, I can tell you that it'll be a decent experience with a stylus, but there's no way in hell I'd want to use a desktop application with just my fingers. You're playing in an environment designed around a pixel perfect pointing device using something that's far from pixel perfect.

jsw said:

Yes, I did answer your questions, because a keyboard and mouse are viable options.

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But they weren't viable options for the current conversation. The whole point was that they won't work well when using the Surface as a tablet without the keyboard and mouse!

Likewise, on my iPhone using iTeleport, I can simulate right clicks and so on, so, while it's not easy, even on that small screen, I can use Remote Desktop, so there's no way those apps will be unusable on the Surface.

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Hence the reason I said you oversimplified!

BaldiMac said:

But they weren't viable options for the current conversation. The whole point was that they won't work well when using the Surface as a tablet without the keyboard and mouse!

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But one of the main selling points of the Surface is that fancy attachable keyboard, stylus, etc. If it is serviceably doable on an iPhone, surely it is usable on a Surface.

jsw said:

But one of the main selling points of the Surface is that fancy attachable keyboard, stylus, etc. If it is serviceably doable on an iPhone, surely it is usable on a Surface.

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Again, the conversation that you entered into was about using legacy/enterprise apps on the surface without the keyboard.

It started around here.
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=16287701#post16287701

And, again, I never claimed they are unusable.

BaldiMac said:

That's oversimplifying a bit! What's a right-click? What's a hover? What's the difference between a dragging an object and scrolling? What about when touch targets are too small because they were designed for a mouse?

There's a reason Microsoft added touch support to Office. There's a reason they developed Metro.

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Overblown. You can do every single one of these things and they are not that difficult. Certainly I agree that legacy programs need to be improved, but this market has barely just been born. I've been using software to run my windows computer on my touch only iPad for years without any issues, the experience is quite good even without a stylus or mouse.

It's very important for programs to be updated, but even programs which are not updated will provide a meaningful experience, and once again you have the option to run it as a laptop or with a stylus. Contrast that with NOT even having the ability to even run those programs and you can see why it's a silly argument.

spinedoc77 said:

You can do every single one of these things and they are not that difficult.

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How?

"Not that difficult" isn't really the standard I'm shooting for. Legacy apps will be a poor experience on a Surface when using it without a keyboard/mouse. This really isn't a controversial position!

BaldiMac said:

Again, the conversation that you entered into was about using legacy/enterprise apps on the surface without the keyboard.

It started around here.
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=16287701#post16287701

And, again, I never claimed they are unusable.

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I don't use a keyboard/mouse with the iPhone. It has a tiny screen. I'm still able to get work done, and what gets in my way isn't the touchscreen, it's the size of the touchscreen. On the N7, even without the KB, it's a lot more usable. On a larger tablet like my iPad 1st Gen, even more so, despite the lessor resolution.

Yes, it's not as good as touch-centric apps, but it's usable, and those legacy apps will work just fine without a keyboard, but, yes, better with one.