Apple and Google's Motorola Unit Seeking Arbitration to Resolve Patent Dispute

I sure hope that Apple is getting some deep, satisfying, intrinsic pleasure out of all the time they are spending on these legal negotiations.

It certainly is not doing anything positive for the products they are producing.

And that's not to mention the "public perception" of Apple that is being changed forever.

Rodimus Prime said:

It drives me nuts using them on my MacBook over hitting CTRL. The reasoning is the key placement of the Command key is more unconfortable to hit.

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Then why don't you simply swap them around ?

KnightWRX said:

Then why don't you simply swap them around ?

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did not know that. thank you for showing that to me because that is going to quickly get changed on my computer

swy05 said:

Are you saying this with a straight face? China is the land of bootlegging and copying. Hell even the baby formula is bootleg and made of lead.

China sure has innovative things......I could list them but.....oh nevermind.

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yes. im not chinese and i know they are copying now. but they will get better..trust me. i know the developments they are having in sic tech and education over the last 10-15 yrs..no other country comes even close to that.

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KnightWRX said:

Sorry, if you're going for firsts, Android was founded in 2003 by Andy Rubin as he left Danger Inc. and bought by Google in august 2005, 6 months before any kind of work was started on the iPhone project. And in 2006, there were still 2 OS projects going at Apple, one for a Linux based phone, the other the Darwin based OS we know as iOS today.

So just no.

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Seriously guys, stop with the "stolen" crap. There's no such thing. No one stole any OS. Microsoft, Apple, Google, they all wrote their code independantly. If you think the "ideas" that can be patented are what take a long time to build in the software world, you need to wake up.

The code bases for these OSes are massive and copyrighted. No one stole any code from anyone else, everyone put in the effort to write it.

You guys diminishing the work on OS X, Mac OS, Windows, Linux, Android, whatever, you're just being daft and uneducated in software development. Get a clue and read up on the subject of IP, software and development before you even start spouting all the non-sense you keep spouting in these threads.

It's just bringing the conversation down.

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Apple licensed nothing. Steve Jobs traded some stock for a chance to visit PARC.

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and that ios copied from that android...

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samcraig said:

Let me ask you this. Why do you wish this. Why do you care? Are you seeking revenge? Were your designs stolen by Samsung?

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no, i am an asian and i feel ashamed to see an asian company who steals things shamelessly and proclaim they worked day and night to 'invent' ...'every'thing in their phones, including the look and icons.

second, i want to make the those 'happy' who has no life and comes to macrumors just to post negative stuffs against apple yes, I'm sick of them. and hope some of them read this and get pissed off

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KnightWRX said:

Then why don't you simply swap them around ?

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wow...thanks to you too...
i didnt know that...but well....ive remapped my hand

AppleScruff1 said:

And what was Mac OS a copy of?

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As you perfectly understand that's not relevant here. The question was "If android is a copy then why it's less intuitive than iOS.". My reply shows that a copy can be less intuitive than original even after 10-20 years.

apple is deadbeat company anyway. Picked up polaroid 8''-er. $89.99. + tax. Besides toxic plastic smell (hope there is not so much lead in it) it is the best thing that I owned. Hey Polaroid guys, I could have forked out $10 dollars more for better case plastic.

thasan said:

second, i want to make the those 'happy' who has no life and comes to macrumors just to post negative stuffs against apple yes, I'm sick of them. and hope some of them read this and get pissed off

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So you admit you're here to troll ? And who are these people that make you so sick ?

KnightWRX said:

So you admit you're here to troll ? And who are these people that make you so sick ?

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PLEASE check my previous posts before you call me a troll

Great! Less suing.

portishead said:

Good. Hopefully Apple and Samsung can hug it out too. It's going to happen eventually I'm sure, hopefully soon.

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Samsung and Apple are too alike to ever hug it out. They will need someone putting them each in their place to get anywhere.

But if the other kids and their suits result in any kind of precedent for legal action then by the time those late 2013 and 2014/15 cases come about, they could move much faster.

KnightWRX said:

, like Apple demonstrated with its constant rejection of Fair terms, and even imposing quite unfair terms of "no more than 1$ per device".

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Fair and unfair according to you and Motorola. Apple clearly felt the opposite. And as we have no information regarding the negotiations we don't really know who was acting in good faith and who was not. It is possible, based on the information we don't have, that Motorola is guilty of foul play, or at least not completely innocent

Unless of course you are an employee of one of the two parties and you have the smoking gun of icon clad evidence of who said what etc. in which case, bring it on already. Or stop making statements of 'facts' you can't back up.

thasan said:

PLEASE check my previous posts before you call me a troll

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Don't feel bad he is from Quebec. People from Ontario, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Manitoba, British Columbia, Prince Eddy Island, Saskatchewan, Alberta, Newfoundland, and Labrador are Trolls also.

charlituna said:

Fair and unfair according to you and Motorola. Apple clearly felt the opposite. And as we have no information regarding the negotiations we don't really know who was acting in good faith and who was not. It is possible, based on the information we don't have, that Motorola is guilty of foul play, or at least not completely innocent

Unless of course you are an employee of one of the two parties and you have the smoking gun of icon clad evidence of who said what etc. in which case, bring it on already. Or stop making statements of 'facts' you can't back up.

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We can assume that they jury who ruled over this had enough evidence at hand to be able to determine that Apple was acting on bad faith.

charlituna said:

Fair and unfair according to you and Motorola. Apple clearly felt the opposite. And as we have no information regarding the negotiations we don't really know who was acting in good faith and who was not.

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Judge Crabb also found Apple unreasonable. And as we have information on Apple's motion and the reason for their lawsuit's dismissal with prejudice against Motorola, over the same "1$ per device", we certain can know who wasn't acting in good faith.

The Judge spelled it out, Apple got greedy.

Remember folks, Apple got thrown out of the court room for being unreasonable. So it's not "fair or unfair according to you and Motorola", it's according to the US court system as well. Apple are the only ones, well aside from a few people too invested emotionally in a corporation, to think their "1$ per device and no more" was reasonable.

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thasan said:

PLEASE check my previous posts before you call me a troll

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Posting just to piss off people is the very definition of trolling. If you're not trolling, then stop posting just to get others pissed off, especially when you can't seem to say which people you're even talking about.

KnightWRX said:

Seriously guys, stop with the "stolen" crap. There's no such thing. No one stole any OS. Microsoft, Apple, Google, they all wrote their code independantly. If you think the "ideas" that can be patented are what take a long time to build in the software world, you need to wake up.

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Sorry but it seems you are the one that needs to wake up. 'Stolen' in this case doesn't mean actual code. Ideas can be patented and are on a daily basis. That's rather the point of patents. You think of a novel idea and you have a legal right to be the only one to profit from it for a preset time.

The issue is the novelty the idea. These days even the courts would agree that the idea of a GUI no longer novel. But certain mechanics within that GUI might be and thus are valid patents. And as they are valid patents and non standard essential, the creator has every right to license or not as pleases and to sue those that use the idea without permission, even if the code is completely different, particularly due to a difference in base language. If the code in the same base language were in deeded copied, that would be a potential copyright issue, not patent.

Mactendo said:

As you perfectly understand that's not relevant here. The question was "If android is a copy then why it's less intuitive than iOS.". My reply shows that a copy can be less intuitive than original even after 10-20 years.

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Of course it's relevant. If Android is a ripoff OS, so is every version of Mac OS. And I find it quite humorous that so many here keep calling Android a copy of iOS and they can't even use it. So what was copied if they can't even figure out how to use it? And Android copied Apple before Apple even released iOS?

And that wasn't the question I posed either.

KPOM said:

Also, Microsoft engineers originally argued that Windows should use tiling (sort of like what Windows 8 does now in "Metro"), but Bill Gates insisted that it needed to have overlapping windows because the Mac did.

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Interestingly, research found that tiling was the better option for new users, because most people spend a lot of time arranging their windows so they don't overlap

Thus, even though it used overlapping windows for some things, application windows on the Xerox Star were originally set to tile. (Later, either method was an option.)

KnightWRX said:

Remember folks, Apple got thrown out of the court room for being unreasonable. So it's not "fair or unfair according to you and Motorola", it's according to the US court system as well.

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Actually the judge tossed the case out of his court on principle over Apple making the demands they did regardless of the amount. No judge wants to be told how they will do their job from one of the parties. THAT is what got the case dismissed, before the issue of the fairness of any amount etc was made.

charlituna said:

Sorry but it seems you are the one that needs to wake up. 'Stolen' in this case doesn't mean actual code. Ideas can be patented and are on a daily basis. That's rather the point of patents. You think of a novel idea and you have a legal right to be the only one to profit from it for a preset time.

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That's not theft, that's infringement. It's not the same thing. And frankly, ideas in software are a dime a dozen. Getting the code to work at production quality, in these massive code bases, is much more intricate.

That is the very reason software does not need patent protection. It already is protected by copyright, which actually protects the hard part of the work : writing a damn working implementation that can actually be used.

Going from a patent to a working software product is insane work. Coming up with the idea of "slide to unlock" or "rubber band on end of document" is the easy part.

ItsWelshy said:

I hope not. Android is a stolen OS, it would be disgusting if Google get away with this.

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So lets say android is stolen.. so what? How does that affect you in your personal life? Does it bother you that other people like a "stolen" OS better?

Evoken said:

We can assume that they jury who ruled over this had enough evidence at hand to be able to determine that Apple was acting on bad faith.

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In the case they're discussing, there was no jury and the judge dismissed the case just hours before it was to begin.

Apple had brought suit against Motorola, claiming that Motorola was abusing its FRAND patents. When Judge Crabb seemed to be also willing to come up with a FRAND rate, Motorola asked that Apple be bound to her rate.

Apple said they would only agree if the rate ended up as $1 per device or less. The judge, who had previously been leaning in Apple's favor, reacted negatively to this condition.

(In a similar case between Microsoft and Motorola, Microsoft had already agreed to be bound to whatever that court determined. Judge Crabb felt that if Microsoft was willing to commit to a court ordered rate, then Apple should be able to as well.)

Because Apple was not willing to abide by any court rate they didn't like, she decided that they weren't serious about a resolution and there was no need for a trial. She dismissed Apple's case against Motorola with prejudice (meaning they can only appeal it; they cannot refile it).

Many observers feel that Apple's lawyers blew a good chance to get Motorola's patents at a fair price from a fair judge, or at least to get Motorola declared in breach of its FRAND contracts.

Back in June, another Apple v. Motorola patent case was thrown out of court by Judge Posner, who had decided that neither one was due any damages.

AppleScruff1 said:

So what was copied if they can't even figure out how to use it? And Android copied Apple before Apple even released iOS?

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Reread this thread. You'll find all the answers.

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KnightWRX said:

Going from a patent to a working software product is insane work. Coming up with the idea of "slide to unlock" or "rubber band on end of document" is the easy part.

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Oh, really ) Smart and intuitive UI is such an easy part )

I have to chuckle here for a moment as I try to understand some posters who insist that Android is not only stolen - but is a copy of iOS. And in the same breath they claim that Android's OS sucks. Seems a little contradictory to me...

samcraig said:

I have to chuckle here for a moment as I try to understand some posters who insist that Android is not only stolen - but is a copy of iOS. And in the same breath they claim that Android's OS sucks. Seems a little contradictory to me...

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Back when MacRumours published rumours about Macs - the level of cognitive dissonance was much lower.

Now that MacRumours seems to be "All IOS - All the time", the number of logically inconsistent posts has become very high.

"It sucks, it's a copy of IOS" is a perfect example of irrational thinking.

samcraig said:

I have to chuckle here for a moment as I try to understand some posters who insist that Android is not only stolen - but is a copy of iOS. And in the same breath they claim that Android's OS sucks. Seems a little contradictory to me...

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Of course it's contradictory, but I guess that is what happens when you repeat incorrect information without considering how funny it sounds. And then the excuses start. Evidently nothing computer related existed in the world until Apple.