Anyone at this point considering a PC Workstation?

Gomff said:

Whilst I personally agree that Apple doesn't really have any more loyalty to their customers than most other corporations, they're quite happy for their customers to believe otherwise.....And indeed they use this to differentiate themselves from the competition.

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I see your point, but I would argue that this is simply better marketing on Apple's part. Microsoft appears stodgy by comparison, and *nix is fatally unsexy and not marketed to consumers anyway. But this image is in no way connected to the actual utility of the product. It's branding, nothing more.

I can't charge Apple with any special effort at deception though. At any rate, if one makes their living on a computer, they ought to be able to see through marketing-speak of this kind with regards to the products they use every day.

Lord Blackadder said:

I see your point, but I would argue that this is simply better marketing on Apple's part. Microsoft appears stodgy by comparison, and *nix is fatally unsexy and not marketed to consumers anyway. But this image is in no way connected to the actual utility of the product. It's branding, nothing more.

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Microsoft have severe Apple envy and everyone knows it. But saying that *nix is fatally unsexy and not marketed to consumers is kind of ironic, since OS X is unix based underneath all the eye candy and indeed Mountain Lion is certified to Unix 03 standard it says here.. I'm not trying to be flippant

Lord Blackadder said:

I can't charge Apple with any special effort at deception though. At any rate, if one makes their living on a computer, they ought to be able to see through marketing-speak of this kind with regards to the products they use every day.

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I think we're basically saying the same thing. My initial post that you responded to was really directed at anyone who doesn't see beyond what Cupertino has to offer for whatever reason (and there's a few around here). I'm over my honeymoon with Apple which started in 2005 and ended about 4 years later.....It was fun while it lasted

Nice config you have there. Not cheap either I guess.

Note that xeons are not faster than comparable core processors. They just support more pro features like ECC ram...

Building a custom ws can get quite expensive if you insist on dual xeons, nice Al case...

Major Reeves said:

Chassis: CoolerMaster Cosmos II
PSU: Seasonic Gold 1250w
CPU: Core i7 3970x
Mobo: Asus Rampage IV Extreme
Ram: 32GB GSkill Ripjaw Z DDR3-2400
GPU: 2x Asus GTX680 TOP
Burner: Pioneer BDR-207MBK
Cooler: Noctua NHD14 SE2011

For now it stays like this, I don't trust watercooling nor I am interested in oc. I also did not see the need for a Xeon as I'll be offloading everything into the GPUs. Quadro/Tesla cards would be nice because of the ECC memory but I have no need for that at home or maybe because they're near impossible to get on the retail market ...

As for storage, for now I'll be using the raptors I currently have on the Mac Pro, but I may end up getting two 256GB Samsung 840PRO SSDs for the OS and apps and two 1 TB Velociraptors for home folder/data.

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Still came out cheaper than the base Mac Pro didn't it.

Gomff said:

. I'm over my honeymoon with Apple which started in 2005 and ended about 4 years later.....It was fun while it lasted

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Mine started back in 05 as well, with a 12" PowerBook. I much preferred Apple when they were smaller. And I too am still running SL on my 08 Pro. I'm debating whether or not to build a dual-CPU Hackintosh.

Gomff said:

Microsoft have severe Apple envy and everyone knows it. But saying that *nix is fatally unsexy and not marketed to consumers is kind of ironic, since OS X is unix based underneath all the eye candy and indeed Mountain Lion is certified to Unix 03 standard it says here.. I'm not trying to be flippant

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What you say is completely true - but Apple is not marketing OS X as Unix. It's buried in there if you look, but Apple is at great pains to differentiate their OS from the *nix world - as well they should, since their GUI is light years ahead in terms of ease of use and seamless integration of components.

Gomff said:

I think we're basically saying the same thing. My initial post that you responded to was really directed at anyone who doesn't see beyond what Cupertino has to offer for whatever reason (and there's a few around here). I'm over my honeymoon with Apple which started in 2005 and ended about 4 years later.....It was fun while it lasted

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Fair enough. I'm always suspicious of evangelists, regardless of what they are promoting. And that goes for Apple lovers too. I've been using Apple products most of my life (though not exclusively), and while I've never had a "honeymoon" with Apple I've also never had a "divorce". The emotional high point probably came immediately before and after the return of Steve Jobs, as Apple went from a niche market to become something more desirable. But Windows has also come a long way from 3.1 and 95, and *nix has gone from being intentionally user-unfriendly to something everyone can use.

We've never had better choice than now, even if the sheer number of OSs has declined since the late 70s/early 80s explosion.

Lord Blackadder said:

Apple is not marketing OS X as Unix. It's buried in there if you look, but Apple is at great pains to differentiate their OS from the *nix world - as well they should, since their GUI is light years ahead in terms of ease of use and seamless integration of components.

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Well, not strictly true. Apple are quite happy to push the Unix credentials of OS X when it suits them as this technology brief pdf from 2011 illustrates.

Lord Blackadder said:

Fair enough. I'm always suspicious of evangelists, regardless of what they are promoting. And that goes for Apple lovers too. I've been using Apple products most of my life (though not exclusively), and while I've never had a "honeymoon" with Apple I've also never had a "divorce". The emotional high point probably came immediately before and after the return of Steve Jobs, as Apple went from a niche market to become something more desirable. But Windows has also come a long way from 3.1 and 95, and *nix has gone from being intentionally user-unfriendly to something everyone can use.

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I jumped from a Windows NT environment when Apple went with intel and OS X became more stable. Before those two events, using OS X was unthinkable for me due to the lack of memory protection, poor performance comparison and frequency with which the whole system locked up. For 3D graphics work, Macs always came a poor second. Between 2005 and 2008, they held their own and I was able to work in OS X exclusively. These days, OpenGL drivers are once again inferior and Apple's drift towards the mainstream consumer end of the market has pushed me back into Windows land whenever a 3D project gets too demanding for OS X.

Gomff said:

Well, not strictly true. Apple are quite happy to push the Unix credentials of OS X when it suits them as this technology brief pdf from 2011 illustrates.

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Right - but as you say Apple only does this very selectively. They prefer to differentiate it as an exclusively Apple product. Which it more or less is in terms of the everyday user experience.

Gomff said:

I jumped from a Windows NT environment when Apple went with intel and OS X became more stable. Before those two events, using OS X was unthinkable for me due to the lack of memory protection, poor performance comparison and frequency with which the whole system locked up. For 3D graphics work, Macs always came a poor second. Between 2005 and 2008, they held their own and I was able to work in OS X exclusively. These days, OpenGL drivers are once again inferior and Apple's drift towards the mainstream consumer end of the market has pushed me back into Windows land whenever a 3D project gets too demanding for OS X.

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3D work has rarely been a strong suit for Apple products. These days Apple has the resources to write world-class OpenGL drivers, but they have chosen not to focus on that. Intel's Open GL implementation for Windows is better than Apple's right now, so the situation is unlikely to change. The drivers are "good enough" for most consumers but they could (and should) be better.

Wild-Bill said:

Mine started back in 05 as well, with a 12" PowerBook. I much preferred Apple when they were smaller. And I too am still running SL on my 08 Pro. I'm debating whether or not to build a dual-CPU Hackintosh.

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Yeah...Apple had a sweet spot midway between their near death experience and who they are today. These days, they're more or less just another big corporation.

Lord Blackadder said:

3D work has rarely been a strong suit for Apple products. These days Apple has the resources to write world-class OpenGL drivers, but they have chosen not to focus on that. Intel's Open GL implementation for Windows is better than Apple's right now, so the situation is unlikely to change. The drivers are "good enough" for most consumers but they could (and should) be better.

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OpenGL performance was comparable between 2006 and about 2009. But here's what happened to me during that time: I "settled" into OS X.....moved all my music to iTunes, moved all my contacts and mail over, stored all my images (including textures for 3D) in iPhoto and then migrated to Aperture, bought Final Cut....Because the environment was good enough to work in on a daily basis (including for 3D which is my business). But these days, there's a disconnect between my 3D-work and everything else because OpenGL is a dog's dinner in OS X. I'm working in Windows with a big 3D project but all my media is in the OS X environment.

I guess the solution is to set up a server with all my content on it which I can get to via LAN since Wifi isn't fast enough when you're dealing with big textures and data files. Or maybe there's a more elegant solution...But either way, Apple has been disappointing for professionals who put their trust in them. And with the iOS additions, it seems to be getting worse and worse. But I guess that's for another thread.

Gomff said:

I guess the solution is to set up a server with all my content on it which I can get to via LAN since Wifi isn't fast enough when you're dealing with big textures and data files. Or maybe there's a more elegant solution...But either way, Apple has been disappointing for professionals who put their trust in them. And with the iOS additions, it seems to be getting worse and worse. But I guess that's for another thread.

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Another thing you can do for photos is to migrate to Adobe's Lightroom. I have been cross-shopping between Lightroom and Aperture and it looks like Lightroom is better supported at the moment. Plus, there is a Windows version so if you swap OSs you won't have to migrate your photo catalog to a new app.

But for someone with your claimed needs, migration might be something you just have to put up with as new OS versions and new hardware tempt you to jump platforms to get better performance or new features.

Lord Blackadder said:

Another thing you can do for photos is to migrate to Adobe's Lightroom. I have been cross-shopping between Lightroom and Aperture and it looks like Lightroom is better supported at the moment. Plus, there is a Windows version so if you swap OSs you won't have to migrate your photo catalog to a new app.

But for someone with your claimed needs, migration might be something you just have to put up with as new OS versions and new hardware tempt you to jump platforms to get better performance or new features.

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Lightroom is a good suggestion actually.....I hadn't made that connection but thanks for the idea, I might look into it.

Might be being a bit sensitive, but what do you mean by "claimed needs"?

Seriously considering building an i7 rig as my "sample box" that feeds Vienna Pro Ensemble to my main box via adat. All that needs is SL (Lion would also work), 32 gigs would do, I guess, and an SSD or one of those SSD/PCIe Card things.

what's a decent i7 "fast" (3.2ghz? more?) score at in the geekbench area w/o worrying about OC'ing etc? hoping for something that can score 15,000 or higher.

Possible w/o spending a bunch?

Major Reeves said:

No, that build cost me 3650€, base 6 core mac pro is 3199€ (without using my education discount). Obviously, it'd surpass the 4k€ mark if I were to spec it "accordingly", but I'd be wasting my money on a machine stuck in 2009/2010.

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Parts must be more expensive over in Europe then, that seems like quite a bit. But yeah, that's still a beast of a machine overall.

Edit: Did not realize the 3970 was so much more than the 3930, which is why I thought that. Crazy stuff.

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spoonie1972 said:

Seriously considering building an i7 rig as my "sample box" that feeds Vienna Pro Ensemble to my main box via adat. All that needs is SL (Lion would also work), 32 gigs would do, I guess, and an SSD or one of those SSD/PCIe Card things.

what's a decent i7 "fast" (3.2ghz? more?) score at in the geekbench area w/o worrying about OC'ing etc? hoping for something that can score 15,000 or higher.

Possible w/o spending a bunch?

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Would probably need a hex core. OC'ing is so easy though, not really anything to "worry" about. If you have a decent cooler you just set it and forget it pretty much. No need to raise voltages or do anything than flip a few switches. Some brands literally have push button overclocking on the motherboards.

Gomff said:

Might be being a bit sensitive, but what do you mean by "claimed needs"?

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Only that, as a random person on the internet, I don't know what you actually do. But I assure you I'm taking your word for it. No offense intended.

spoonie1972 said:

Seriously considering building an i7 rig as my "sample box" that feeds Vienna Pro Ensemble to my main box via adat. All that needs is SL (Lion would also work), 32 gigs would do, I guess, and an SSD or one of those SSD/PCIe Card things.

what's a decent i7 "fast" (3.2ghz? more?) score at in the geekbench area w/o worrying about OC'ing etc? hoping for something that can score 15,000 or higher.

Possible w/o spending a bunch?

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All you need is an i7 3930k:

http://browser.primatelabs.com/processor-benchmarks

Much more than 15000 would require a dual cpu solution.

thanks flatlux - great to know. right now my 4,1 is running as a giant sampler, but i may need to augment it; building an i7 box is probably cheaper than purchasing 2x 6-core xeons

fiatlux said:

All you need is an i7 3930k:

http://browser.primatelabs.com/processor-benchmarks

Much more than 15000 would require a dual cpu solution.

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I agree with the recommendation to consider an i7-3930k system; however, I question the suggestion that getting a geekbench score "[m]uch more than 15000 would require a dual cpu solution." My 4-core i7-975 system scores over 15,000; my six 6-core i7-980X systems all score over 21,000, and my $1.5k 6-core i7-3930k system scores over 23,000 in OSX and 27,000 in Win7. (See URL in signature, below. N.B. You can click the column headings to array my score data to your interest.) It's my experience that a dual cpu system can score well above 30k in Geekbench 2 and over 24 in Cinebench 11.5 if you underclock it by following the guidelines in this thread [ https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1333421/ ]. And it's my experience that a quad CPU (not core) Sandy Bridge E5-4650 solution, like my WolfPackPrime0, can score over 58,000 in Geekbench 2 and 42 in Cinebench 11.5. But I would be wrong to suggest that your system will attain the same score(s) as my similarly configured system because your mileage may vary.

Tutor said:

... And it's my experience that a quad CPU (not core) Sandy Bridge E5-4650 solution, like my WolfPackPrime0, can score over 58,000 in Geekbench 2 and 42 in Cinebench 11.5. But I would be wrong to suggest that your system will attain the same score(s) as my similarly configured system because your mileage may vary.

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Recommended Customer Price TRAY: $3616.00
BOX : $3620.00

Gomff said:

Lightroom is a good suggestion actually.....I hadn't made that connection but thanks for the idea, I might look into it.

Might be being a bit sensitive, but what do you mean by "claimed needs"?

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Look very hard at it..I like apertures interface better but Lightroom won my heart when I downgraded to Snow Leopard from Lion and Aperture wouldn't let me use my updated library.

spoonie1972 said:

Seriously considering building an i7 rig as my "sample box" that feeds Vienna Pro Ensemble to my main box via adat. All that needs is SL (Lion would also work), 32 gigs would do, I guess, and an SSD or one of those SSD/PCIe Card things.

what's a decent i7 "fast" (3.2ghz? more?) score at in the geekbench area w/o worrying about OC'ing etc? hoping for something that can score 15,000 or higher.

Possible w/o spending a bunch?

Click to expand...

Tutor is the man to listen too with this stuff but my i7 2700k scores more than 15,000 in GB in OSX and 19,000 in Windows. No vCore adjustment (not allowed) on the z77 board I literally left everything on auto and typed 46,45,44,43 for my turbo values and was done. During Black Friday Newegg had 32GB of gSkill Ripjaw x on sale for 99,99 plus shipping so I picked that up, it'll add 500 or so points to GB

I hope that Apple will move to a much smaller lighter form factor.
Several of the software applications that I run can utilise other computers on the same network for render previews as well as final renders, which makes me question whether a dual processor workstation would really be the way to go when distributed processing provides a very attractive alternative.

What I would like to see is 8 or 10 cores in a single processor small form factor workstation, and the option of a pro GPU and/or Intel Xeon Phi.

Storage can be easily handled by USB 3.0 / TB.

I don't see the need for 20 kg aluminium cases.

spoonie1972 said:

Recommended Customer Price TRAY: $3616.00
BOX : $3620.00

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