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Apple and Amazon Ordered to Enter Settlement Talks Over 'App Store' Trademark Issue

Mr. Gates

Mr. Gates

macrumors 68020
Jun 17, 2009
2,217
15
--Redmond --------- ----------------Washington---
kitsap2 said:
In the Microsoft world, "Applications" were known as, "Programs". Apple has always called its, "programs", Applications.

Apple truncated the word, applications, to, App. Then called their new, smaller (file size) applications for iPhone, Apps. Then filed for trademark status of that name, in The App Store.

Microsoft would, theoretically, call their program/s, Prog/s. And hence, The Prog Store. Doesn't sound quite that nice rolling off the tongue, but it would make sense.

Amazon couldn't come up with their own nifty name, so they just "borrowed" Apple's name for their store. Maybe Amazon should have called their store, The DroidApp Store, Drapp Store, Roid Store, The Amazon Store for Little Programs to Run on Android Platform Phones Store.

Just my early morning thoughts. No legal eagle here.
Click to expand...

First of all, this little myth you are repeating has been circulated for a while now and its just not true. There are various examples of BOTH companies using BOTH terms throughout the past 30 years.

Second, neither company invented these words. They have been around hundreds of years and are just now being used in terms of computers.

Third, you can't trademark an abbreviation.

Get real
 
L

leroypants

Suspended
Jul 17, 2010
662
568
I am not sure if it's blind devotion or blissful ignorance that causes apple users to believe Apple was the first company to use the term "AppStore".
 
S

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
Laird Knox said:
Just Sunday I had somebody say to me "I finally broke down and bought a Windows iPhone." When he showed it to me it was an Andriod phone. Nope, no confusion there.

As long as people are involved there will be confusion.
Click to expand...

That's hardware not in reference to the store. I see your point. But irrelevant to this, no?

Even if they were confused as hell about which device they own - they can only buy from one store.

A lawsuit between Amazon and Google would make sense if Amazon used the Amazon Play Store. Why? Because then you could argue confusion. And DAMAGES from that confusion.

----------
everything-i said:
What's at question is the term 'app' used as a contraction of application. While this was rarely used in the media before Apple called their phone applications 'apps' it was used extensively in the software development community before this. One notable use of the term was by bill gates years ago when referring to popular applications as killer apps. This at least shows that the term was in use long before Apple filed the trade mark.
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No. What's at question is the trademark on App Store. Not App. Not Store. But App Store.
 
N

Nickerbocker

macrumors 6502
Apr 4, 2012
273
135
I think Apple should consider letting this one go and should consider the wise old saying of "choose your battles".
 
Apple Key

Apple Key

macrumors 6502a
Jan 4, 2012
561
0
Mr. Gates said:
First of all, this little myth you are repeating has been circulated for a while now and its just not true. There are various examples of BOTH companies using BOTH terms throughout the past 30 years.

Second, neither company invented these words. They have been around hundreds of years and are just now being used in terms of computers.

Third, you can't trademark an abbreviation.

Get real
Click to expand...

While both companies may have been using both terms. Clearly Microsoft used the word Program more and possibly had a preference for it.
 

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KnightWRX

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
Apple Key said:
While both companies may have been using both terms. Clearly Microsoft used the word Program more and possibly had a preference for it.
Click to expand...

kitsap2 said:
In the Microsoft world, "Applications" were known as, "Programs". Apple has always called its, "programs", Applications.
Click to expand...

You seem very knowledgeable and intelligent. Can you do me a favor ? I'm illeterate and have some homework that needs doing. Can you tell me how many times the word "Application" shows up on this picture vs how many times the word "Program" does ?

nt31box.jpg


It would be very appreciated if you could, simply click the image to zoom in.

:rolleyes:

And can you guys even explain how any of that is relevant to the descriptive "App Store" trademark Apple is trying to acquire and defend ?
 
M

myhaksown

macrumors member
Feb 6, 2012
55
85
The term "App Store" is generic because Apple made it that way. Think about it, all Mac software are referred to as App and Windows as programs. Naturally the term App followed to all iDevices and to the creation of the "App Store". When Google came out with the Android Marketplace the term App happened to follow over. It's unfortunate because App Store is not generic. Software store or Program Store is. But App never had traction till apple used it and because of that they won't win this case. We don't call windows software applications either.
 
Apple Key

Apple Key

macrumors 6502a
Jan 4, 2012
561
0
KnightWRX said:
You seem very knowledgeable and intelligent. Can you do me a favor ? I'm illeterate and have some homework that needs doing. Can you tell me how many times the word "Application" shows up on this picture vs how many times the word "Program" does ?

nt31box.jpg


It would be very appreciated if you could, simply click the image to zoom in.

:rolleyes:

And can you guys even explain how any of that is relevant to the descriptive "App Store" trademark Apple is trying to acquire and defend ?
Click to expand...

I stand corrected.

I do still believe that Apple popularized the term "App" - the shortened version of the word. And, the trademark for "App Store" is something that Apple should be entitled to the trademark for.
 
KnightWRX

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
myhaksown said:
The term "App Store" is generic because Apple made it that way.
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Hum, no. First, it's not an issue of "generic" or "not generic", it's an issue of descriptive vs non-descriptive.

App Store, a store that sells apps. That's descriptive, has nothing to do with being "generic". Macrumors keep getting it wrong in their summaries.

myhaksown said:
Think about it, all Mac software are referred to as App and Windows as programs.
Click to expand...

Can you please also help me with my homework and look at the box and count the references to Program vs Application ? It would really help me out.

And explain the relevance to this topic.
 
S

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
Apple Key said:
I stand corrected.

I do still believe that Apple popularized the term "App" - the shortened version of the word. And, the trademark for "App Store" is something that Apple should be entitled to the trademark for.
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It doesn't matter who popularized the word App. It's irrelevant. The only thing that matters is App Store. Not App. Not Store.

And only to those that only follow Apple in the tech world religiously could believe that App was popularized by Apple. It was FURTHER popularized.

But again - irrelevant as this case has nothing to do with who coined the word app.
 
Y

Yamcha

macrumors 68000
Mar 6, 2008
1,825
158
alexgowers said:
I disagree the term 'appstore' is not generic at all.

It was almost never been used before apple decided to call it's programs for it's phones apps. There were many software stores online and many didn't shorten applications to apps at all! I mean come on just because it's simple doesn't mean there aren't other names, every other company has thought of something original to call their outlets with no issues.

I mean they could have called it appshop, softstore or any number of variations on a theme. Amazon are guilty of copying, now whether that is illegal is a whole different debate and that is presumably what the court wants answered. I think it's fine for amazon to call their store whatever they want but they have to admit they are copying to get customers in the door. Sadly for amazon their name is not synonymous with quality and I think apple feels they are misleading the public into believing they will get an apple like experience.

I also have to say apples app stores are still lacking after an initial revelation the usability hasn't improved and needs a massive rethink.
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It is generic, just because it may have not been used before doesn't matter. It's like adding a trademark to the word "Notebook", the only difference is according to you, the word was not used before.

Apple tends to have double standards when it comes to trademarks, just look at the word "iPhone" It was initially a trademark owned by Cisco Systems, and Steve Jobs just took it, despite the lawsuit filed by Cisco Systems. Lucky for Apple, they let it go and reached an agreement eventually.

Anyway I would be rather shocked If the word has not been used in the past by some company or person. Frankly trademarking generic words is ridiculous, thats exactly why the judge ruled in favour of Amazon the last time around..
 
KnightWRX

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
Apple Key said:
I stand corrected.

I do still believe that Apple popularized the term "App" - the shortened version of the word. And, the trademark for "App Store" is something that Apple should be entitled to the trademark for.
Click to expand...

Popularizing a term for one does not allow you to trademark it. And the term "App" is not what is at issue here but the descriptive phrase "App Store". Now to trademark a descriptive term Apple would need to show it had acquired "Secondary Meaning", ie, people associate App Store with Apple's App Store only. Apple have failed to produce such evidence up to now and don't seem to quite be able to do so.

Also, app was also not popularized by Apple, it was in use quite a while before any "Apps" for iPhone showed up, unless you mean Apple popularised it somewhere in the 70s, right after they were founded. We've dug up literature covering use of the word from quite a while ago in these threads, kdarling having access to images you wouldn't believe...

The most often used variations of "App" are for "Killer app" or the venerable "WebApps".
 
whooleytoo

whooleytoo

macrumors 604
Aug 2, 2002
6,607
716
Cork, Ireland.
bobringer said:
Anybody else find it funny that Amazon is using the "generic" argument when it defended it's "one click shopping" patent so aggressively?

I understand each issue needs to be separate... but seeing that Apple still pays Amazon for the use of the most ridiculous of ridiculous patents... I suggest the same arrangement here. Amazon pays Apple for every purchase through the "appstore."
Click to expand...

I think companies' (like peoples') attitudes change depending on which end of the lawsuit they're on!

I agree with you wholeheartedly on the one-click patent.
 
Apple Key

Apple Key

macrumors 6502a
Jan 4, 2012
561
0
samcraig said:
It doesn't matter who popularized the word App. It's irrelevant. The only thing that matters is App Store. Not App. Not Store.

And only to those that only follow Apple in the tech world religiously could believe that App was popularized by Apple. It was FURTHER popularized.

But again - irrelevant as this case has nothing to do with who coined the word app.
Click to expand...

Before Apple launched the App Store, they were not commonly referred to as Apps. Sometime they were, but it was not frequently and commonly done. If you went up to a random person on the street and asked them what an app is. They would probably say "a nap? It's when you get tired and fall asleep for a short while."
 
S

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
Popeye206 said:
LOL! I love all the knowledgeable trademark experts here! :rolleyes:
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You don't have to be an expert to know that this issue has nothing to do with who coined the phrase APP

It's irrelevant despite many many MANY people trying to argue otherwise.

Reading comprehension is apparently over-rated.

----------
Apple Key said:
Before Apple launched the App Store, they were not commonly referred to as Apps. Sometime they were, but it was not frequently and commonly done. If you went up to a random person on the street and asked them what an app is. They would probably say "a nap? What sonny?"
Click to expand...

I guess you never owned/used Palm Pilots.

It's cool.

PS - this has nothing to do with who made APP popular. How many times does that have to be stated
 
Apple Key

Apple Key

macrumors 6502a
Jan 4, 2012
561
0
samcraig said:
You don't have to be an expert to know that this issue has nothing to do with who coined the phrase APP

It's irrelevant despite many many MANY people trying to argue otherwise.

Reading comprehension is apparently over-rated.

----------



I guess you never owned/used Palm Pilots.

It's cool.

PS - this has nothing to do with who made APP popular. How many times does that have to be stated
Click to expand...

Did Palm trademark the term "App Store"? If they had, it probably would have been granted to them at that time.

The reason it has to do with Apple making it popular is because they popularized both "App" and "App Store". One which should be able to be trademarked, and the other which further reinforces this. There is undeniable customer confusion as far as the term is concerned. Whether this will be proven in court? I have no idea.
 
H

henrystar

macrumors regular
Jan 2, 2009
121
0
DipDog3 said:
Sorry, but yes, "App Store" is generic. You can't trademark it.

I don't think anyone gets confused, they know you go to the app store to get apps regardless of what device it is on.
Click to expand...

Next somebody will try to claim ownership of ordinary words, such as windows!
 
S

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
Apple Key said:
Did Palm trademark the term "App Store"? If they had, it probably would have been granted to them at that time.

The reason it has to do with Apple making it popular is because they popularized both "App" and "App Store". One which should be able to be trademarked, and the other which further reinforces this. There is undeniable customer confusion as far as the term is concerned. Whether this will be proven in court? I have no idea.
Click to expand...

Ok - let's go with App Store (not App) as being trademarked by Apple. Explain to me the damages of said "confusion."

Just curious. I have no problem with Apple trying to trademark App Store. I just believe that it's not a trademarkable phrase.
 
KnightWRX

KnightWRX

macrumors Pentium
Jan 28, 2009
15,046
4
Quebec, Canada
henrystar said:
Next somebody will try to claim ownership of ordinary words, such as windows!
Click to expand...

Or Apple. Which there is nothing wrong with as long as you don't sell panes of glasses or fruits that fall from a tree. Then we run into the same issue we have here : "Descriptive".

There is nothing wrong with trademarking dictionary words in certain fields. There are different rules when it comes to descriptive terms however.

So bringing things up like Trademarks for Amazon or Apple or Windows is completely irrelevant, like bringing up "Application" vs "Program" or thinking Apple popularised "Application" and "App" when they obviously didn't.
 
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